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Zeuzzz
10th October 2009, 01:52 AM
aSxC_daiu5w

:D

WildCat
10th October 2009, 06:25 AM
Now, were they at war for all of these killings? No.
The people they killed were certainly at war with Israel, do you disagree?

I have not seen such evidence, but would not be entirely surprised.
This is a lie, you have seen the evidence you just chose to ignore it.

I have however seen numerous accounts of Israel targetting civilian locations and thus civilians, and killing dozens of people and leaders through their various assassinations.
No, they targeted people who were warring on them. It is well within the rules of warfare to target the enemy, even if he hides amongst civilians.

Do what Hamas does, however, and specifically target civilians and you clearly are violating the rules of armed conflict. That's what your hero does, and you boy Galloway gives them money to do more of it.

Marc39
10th October 2009, 09:14 AM
No, they're the elected govenment, who have to defend themselves from Israeli agression frequently.

The Nazi Party was an elected government, as well, and shared Hamas's fascist and anti-Semitic viewpoints. Israeli self-defense measures should not be confused with IslamoNazi aggression against Israel.

I dont like Hamas, but I dont think they are terrorists any more than Israel is a terrorist state (if we are going by civilian deaths especially)

The US State Department does think Hamas are terrorists.

US State Department Office of the Coordinator for Counterterrorism
Background Information on Foreign Terrorist Organizations...


Formed in late 1987 as an outgrowth of the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood. Various HAMAS elements have used both political and violent means, including terrorism, to pursue the goal of establishing an Islamic Palestinian state in place of Israel. Loosely structured, with some elements working clandestinely and others working openly through mosques and social service institutions to recruit members, raise money, organize activities, and distribute propaganda. HAMAS's strength is concentrated in the Gaza Strip and a few areas of the West Bank.

HAMAS activists, especially those in the Izz el-Din al-Qassam Brigades, have conducted many attacks--including large-scale suicide bombings--against Israeli civilian and military targets, suspected Palestinian collaborators, and Fatah rivals.

Marc39
10th October 2009, 09:20 AM
dont they?!

They have a large army and miliary power. Hamas are like toy soldiers firing out of date and inaccurate weapons.

Firing "inaccurate weapons" into civilian population centers nevertheless is a violation of the law and constitutes an act of war.

That the rockets fired into Israel by Hamas did not do greater damage does not mitigate the actions.

funk de fino
10th October 2009, 09:29 AM
So theres no real reasons that people can give then why he's so bad? Apart from all the ones that I've proved wrong :D

Might make a list of all the things people have accused him of that were outright wrong in a bit, that would be a laugh. You have to wonder why so many people believe all these false allegations.

My last post. watch the videos and stop lying

Marc39
10th October 2009, 09:54 AM
Untrue. But I didn't expect anything better from you. He just supports them over Israel if having to decide between them both. His sticking up for Hamas and people in palestine during times of war and inhumain suffering is often confused with him being some sort of fervant Hamas sycophant.

I haven't seen criticism from Galloway directed to Hamas for their brutality in routinely beating, torturing and murdering Fatah and its supporters. Haven't heard boo from Galloway about Hamas having stolen humanitarian aid and misusing millions of dollars of foreign aid for the purchase of missiles that have been fired, illegally, into Israel.

I'm unaware of Galloway condemning the Hamas raid on a wedding in which they shot up the ceremony and beat the guests and the groom.

Galloway may want to turn his attention to the fact that Gazans require permission to leave for any reason including medical needs.

A Hamas police unit is charged with enforcing new modesty regulations, which include a prohibition on men from bathing topless and women from laughing while bathing.

Book-banning is widespread and there is governmental monitoring of Internet activity.

Crucifixion has been adopted as a form of punishment and laws forbidding the sale of land to Jews carry severe penalties, including execution. Several Palestinians have been hanged under the law.

The continued Islamization of Gaza under Hamas and moves toward the enforcement of shari'a law promise to place further restrictions on the lives of Gazans

Marc39
10th October 2009, 10:10 AM
BZZZZT!

Wrong. He supports them over Israel while in conflict for humanitarian reasons, and will stick up for their right to defend themselves. He is not a hamas supporter by any means.

Does Galloway support these Hamas "humanitarian" efforts...

UNRWA Suspends Aid To Gaza After Hamas Again Seizes Supplies
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1233304705842&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Tin Foil Timothy
10th October 2009, 04:42 PM
Here's a montage of Galloway asshattery, where he makes it quite clear he is pro-Hamas:

eUIk2h6OEx0

And that's a bad thing?


Being pro-Hamas is no worse than being pro-Israel.

In fact being pro-Hamas is really a lot better than being pro-Israel. Both sides have killed innocent civilians, but Hamas are trying to fight back against an aggressor whilst Israel is an aggressor.


George Galloway is a star. He completely demolished the idiots in the Senate who used neocon'esque lies to try and smear him.

It's not surprising he hot kicked out of Zionist funded Blair's British Labour Party as he always spoke out against the big lie of the WMDs as a pre-text to invade Iraq.

Tin Foil Timothy
10th October 2009, 04:45 PM
The Nazi Party was an elected government, as well, and shared Hamas's fascist and anti-Semitic viewpoints. Israeli self-defense measures should not be confused with IslamoNazi aggression against Israel.

And the racists in the Israeli Government who mount genocidal violence against the peopel fo Gaza are also elected.



The US State Department does think Hamas are terrorists.

Who cares?

They are hardly a benchmark on morality.

Tin Foil Timothy
10th October 2009, 04:48 PM
Have you found an urban war which had less civilian deaths than the Gaza incursion yet?

Diversion away from the subject again


And curious you once again ignore that Hamas targets civilians and tortures political opponents to death.


IDF terrorists shoot unarmed women and children when they are waving white flags.

Racist Israeli commanders order the dropping of white phosphorus on innocent civilians becuase they are of the wrong DNA

Tin Foil Timothy
10th October 2009, 04:54 PM
What's there to debunk? Galloway feels that Israelis knowing how to aim is a crime.

What he fails to realize is that Israel had the right to shoot back as soon as just ONE SINGLE ROCKET flew over the border.

If I have F-16s, Apache gunships and Merkava battle tanks, and you toss an explosive warhead in my direction, I'm gonna come over there and @#$% your *&%$ up... fair warning. So don't do it.

"But the UN says this, and the UN says that and the UN..." Screw the UN. They have no say in this and no credibility. When an organization knowingly and wilfully appoints a purveyor of anti-semitic conspiracy theories (http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/search?q=Falk)as it's chief Israel basher, everything they have to say on the topic becomes null and void.

I always laugh at the Zionists who love the UN when they back sanctions against Zionist enemies like Iraq and soon Iran. They love the UN when it passes resolutions for a partition plan that is the stepping stone of Zionist colonization of the Middle East.

But they Hate the UN when it rightly criticizes Israel for it's racist war crimes and various illegal occupations and colonizations of the West Bank

The Zionist Charter has at least four chapters:

1] Double Standards

2] Fantasy

3] Victim Mentality

4] Racial superiority

George Galloway is a politician that is brave enough to recognize this in a Zionist dominate playing field. he's pai the price by being marginalized in Western Politics.

Tin Foil Timothy
10th October 2009, 04:58 PM
No.

He ran away from his responsibilities to be a media whore on a show for low grade morons.

Any politician who abandons their constituents and their job MAKING OUR LAWS to dick around in a red leotard should be sacked.

He's worthless.

On the contrary he's worth a 100 times more than the ziono-neocon lackeys that normally stain the corridors of the British parliament. The UK wouldn't have been stupid enough to go along with the farcial invasion of Iraq had Galloway been Prime Minister

He's worth a billion of Blair and Bush

Ziggurat
10th October 2009, 05:10 PM
Oh look, everyone, Tim hates Israel. And the sky is blue.

I am curious about what Tim thinks of the fact that Galloway tried to suggest that the Tiananmen Square massacre never happened. Perhaps there's a Zionist plot involved somehow...

Marc39
10th October 2009, 05:13 PM
I always laugh at the Zionists who love the UN when they back sanctions against Zionist enemies like Iraq and soon Iran.

It's rare when the UN "backs sanctions against Zionist enemies"

The UN Human Rights Council, for instance, has issued more resolutions against Israel than the 191 members of the UN combined.

They love the UN when it passes resolutions for a partition plan that is the stepping stone of Zionist colonization of the Middle East.

That was, what, over half a century ago and the UN passed the same partition plan for Palestinian statehood, which they rejected.

As for Zionist colonizaton, that's the sort of xenophobic talk that one hears leveled against Asian and Mexican immigrants. Jewish immigrants to Palestine were not colonists.

I recommend you become knowledgeable about the history of colonialism.

But they Hate the UN when it rightly criticizes Israel for it's racist war crimes and various illegal occupations and colonizations of the West Bank

There is no illegal occupation.

I recommend you become knowledgeable about occupations.

The Zionist Charter has at least four chapters:

1] Double Standards

2] Fantasy

3] Victim Mentality

4] Racial superiority

George Galloway is a politician that is brave enough to recognize this in a Zionist dominate playing field. he's pai the price by being marginalized in Western Politics.

The Israeli Declaration of Independence clearly states the Zionist philosophy of equal rights for every Israeli citizen.

Indeed, Israel is the only country in the Middle East that fully respects freedom, human rights and civil liberties...

THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.

Marc39
10th October 2009, 05:27 PM
IDF terrorists shoot unarmed women and children when they are waving white flags.

The IDF blanketed Gaza with hundreds of thousands of leaflets alerting them to the impending military intervention and telephoned and texted hundreds of thousands of Gazans.

During the war, the IDF unilaterally halted fighting for 3 hours a day, while taking enemy fire, in order to allow for the administration of humanitarian aid.

Israeli hospitals accepted Palestinians, most of whom supported Hamas, their terrorist regime dedicated to Israel's destruction.

Such a level of humane conduct on the part of the IDF is otherwise considered unthinkable by military authorities.

Racist Israeli commanders order the dropping of white phosphorus on innocent civilians becuase they are of the wrong DNA

There is no reliable evidence bearing out your [baseless] allegation.. The use of white phosphorous is lawful and has been used since World War I. The US has used WP in Iraq.

Marc39
10th October 2009, 05:32 PM
Being pro-Hamas is no worse than being pro-Israel.

In fact being pro-Hamas is really a lot better than being pro-Israel. Both sides have killed innocent civilians, but Hamas are trying to fight back against an aggressor whilst Israel is an aggressor.


George Galloway is a star. He completely demolished the idiots in the Senate who used neocon'esque lies to try and smear him.

It's not surprising he hot kicked out of Zionist funded Blair's British Labour Party as he always spoke out against the big lie of the WMDs as a pre-text to invade Iraq.

The problem is Hamas is complicit in the abduction of Palestinians supporting opposing political organizations and their torture and murder. Fratricide between Hamas and Fatah has resulted in several hundred deaths of Palestinians.

Hamas, a terrorist organization, as classified by the US State Department, is terrorizing their own population.

Thunder
10th October 2009, 05:35 PM
Hamas, a terrorist organization, as classified by the US State Department, is terrorizing their own population.

Israel doesn't give a damn about the US State Department or what they have to say. The State Dept. considers the West Bank settlements to be completely illegal and a major obstacle to peace.

Stout
10th October 2009, 05:38 PM
is blue.

<snip....> Galloway tried to suggest that the Tienanmen Square massacre never happened. Perhaps there's a Zionist plot involved somehow...

I did the Galloway thing over on another board when he was banned from entering Canada. I thought he was a self serving git back then, and this thread only reaffirms my opinion. I did not, however, know about the tiananmen square thing and I just spent an hour researching the history in photographs. For someone to claim that nobody died, not even the 241 people quoted by *official sources* is well, words escape me. Civil ones at least.

I also took it upon myself to ask why "the left" would support an organization like Hamas that would clearly take leftist ideology and crumple it into a small ball then crush it with their jackboots. The response I got was just this side of blind obedience because they're the democratically elected government of Palestine and reflect the wishes of the people.

Marc39
10th October 2009, 10:31 PM
As I said, he supports them in humaitarian situations. This was just after well over 1000 people had been killed in gaza, over 400 children, thousands of houses destroyed, over 8000 casualties. The money was that donated by the british people to the Gaza charity appeal to help the wounded and suffering. And the best way to get the money to the people of a war torn state is to give it to the democratically elected govenment who can best help their people.

1,000 people killed in Gaza. 1 million people were killed in the Iran-Iraq war. 100,000 killed in Iraq. Several hundred thousand killed in the Algerian and Bangladesh civil wars.

Given Hamas's tactics of maximizing civilian casualties, of its own population, through booby trapping buildings, establishing military bases in populated areas, such as mosques, homes, schools and hospitals and fighting out of uniform, intentionally causing confusion between militants and civilians, it is Hamas that was to blame for those civilian casualties.

Tin Foil Timothy
10th October 2009, 10:47 PM
The UN Human Rights Council, for instance, has issued more resolutions against Israel than the 191 members of the UN combined.



Indeed and that's because the behavior of Israel has deserved that.



As for Zionist colonizaton, that's the sort of xenophobic talk that one hears leveled against Asian and Mexican immigrants. Jewish immigrants to Palestine were not colonists.

I recommend you become knowledgeable about the history of colonialism.

I recommend you admit the existence of Jewish Only, and thus racist, settlements in the illegally occupied West bank and East Jerusalem



There is no illegal occupation.

I recommend you become knowledgeable about occupations.

:dl:



The Israeli Declaration of Independence clearly states the Zionist philosophy of equal rights for every Israeli citizen.

About time they practiced their own declaration then isn't it? Bits of paper and words are worth nothing. What happens ion practise is key.



Indeed, Israel is the only country in the Middle East that fully respects freedom, human rights and civil liberties...

... for Jews only.

Gotta love those racists!!!!! Sure be a boring world without some DNA superiority eh? :rolleyes:

Tin Foil Timothy
10th October 2009, 10:54 PM
There is no reliable evidence bearing out your [baseless] allegation.. The use of white phosphorous is lawful and has been used since World War I. The US has used WP in Iraq.

White Phosphorous is illegal to use over civilians areas. There's plenty of pictures and video of the stuff both in the air and burning Palestinian children. the UN has conducted an extensive study and corroborated this.

Plenty of reliable evidence in the real world. We appreciate in the Zionist Fantasy world such stuff is viewed with complete denial.

You can say it didn't happen a thousand times, and to quote The Fool, you can "look the other way and whistle a happy tune". But it still happened. The Israeli government are racist thugs who have no care for human life for non-Jews.

George Galloway is at least one politician not contaminated or bankrolled by Zionism who recognizes this.

Tin Foil Timothy
10th October 2009, 10:56 PM
it is Hamas that was to blame for those civilian casualties.

Yes we've heard this a hundred times from the Israeli Propaganda machine. Mark Regev is a particular distasteful individual peddling these lies. The bully that blames his victim is the ultimate coward.

Tin Foil Timothy
10th October 2009, 10:58 PM
Hamas, a terrorist organization, as classified by the US State Department, is terrorizing their own population.

Israel a terrorist and racist state put it's own population in the region of Sderot in danger in order to generate an excuse to slaughter Palestinians.

The Zionists don't even care about expending a few Jews in order to further their agenda.

Marc39
11th October 2009, 05:26 AM
Israel a terrorist and racist state put it's own population in the region of Sderot in danger in order to generate an excuse to slaughter Palestinians.

The Zionists don't even care about expending a few Jews in order to further their agenda.

The problem with your post is it's comprised of pure rhetoric and flat-out lies, which appears to be a pattern.

Israel is a sovereign state with a history of defending itself against terrorism, such as the al-Aqsa intifada of Palestinian suicide bombings in Israel lasting four years, from 2000-2004, that resulted in 1,000 Israeli casualties and 6,000 wounded.

Hamas, the regime in Gaza, is classified as a terrorist group by the US and EU and, indeed, is dedicated to Israel's destruction, the very definition of terrorism. al-Aqsa Brigades, aligned with Fatah, is also classified as a terrorist organization by the US State Dep't.

Suggesting the Israeli government deliberately placed its own population in danger as a pretext for "slaughtering" Palestinians is one of the sickest and most warped views I have heard.

The Israeli government tolerated 12,000 rockets from Gaza for 8 years in an effort to avoid military reprisals through diplomatic avenues, before finally retaliating.

Had Cuba fired one missile into Florida, the US government would have retaliated immediately.

Furthermore, had the goal of the IDF been to slaughter Palestinians, it did an incompetent job doing so. After three weeks of combat, only a few hundred Pal casualties were incurred. The IDF had sufficient time to slaughter the entire population of 1.5 million Gazans.

Indeed, the IDF would not have warned Gazans of the military operation with leaflets and telephone calls, nor would the IDF have unilaterally interrupted battle for three hours a day for the administration humanitarian aid, had it's objective been slaughter.

British Commander Richard Kemp, who led British forces in Afghanistan and, earlier, in Northern Ireland, sums up the IDF's conduct in Gaza as having performed in an exemplary manner...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WssrKJ3Iqcw

Marc39
11th October 2009, 05:35 AM
White Phosphorous is illegal to use over civilians areas.

White phosphorous has been use in civilian areas by the US military in World War II, Korea, Viet Nam and Iraq.

There's plenty of pictures and video of the stuff both in the air and burning Palestinian children. the UN has conducted an extensive study and corroborated this.

White phosphorous is deployed in the air, so, your statement is uninformed.

There are "plenty" of pictures of Hamas fighting out of uniform, firing from within civilian centers and engaging in perfidy, all violations of the law of armed conflict and illustrations of Hamas endangering its own population.

And, while Hamas used ambulances for military purposes, constituting perfidy, they did not use those ambulances for their intended purpose...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7801881.stm

We appreciate in the Zionist Fantasy world such stuff is viewed with complete denial.

More Jew hate.

Arcade22
11th October 2009, 07:00 AM
White Phosphorous is illegal to use over civilians areas.

Source?

JihadJane
11th October 2009, 07:28 AM
Hold on, aren't we supposed to discussing why Galloway is uniquely awful not why Israeli war crimes are?

Tin Foil Timothy
11th October 2009, 09:17 AM
We appreciate in the Zionist Fantasy world such stuff is viewed with complete denial.

More Jew hate.

We need more people like George Galloway to speak out against the ridiculous arguments that equate 'Zionist' with 'Jew' and the pulling out of the race card to counter criticism of the Zionist Movement

George Galloway is a fine orator who has spoken out against the atrocities committed by Israel against both Lebanon and Gaza.

Also the way he demolished the idiots in the Senate in retort to their pathetic attempt to smear him was pure class

Tin Foil Timothy
11th October 2009, 09:22 AM
Source?

"The use of incendiary weapons against civilians was banned (by signatory countries) in the 1980 Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons Protocol III. The USA signed Protocols I and II on March 24, 1995 (and the amended article II on May 24, 1999) and later Protocols III, IV, and V, on January 21, 2009."

also

http://www.unog.ch/__80256ee600585943.nsf/%28httpPages%29/3ce7cfc0aa4a7548c12571c00039cb0c?OpenDocument&ExpandSection=1%2C2#_Section1

Not that it matters, it's morally disgusting regardless of any legality.

Anyway.... back to Galloway and the discussion on how excellent he is!!!:)

Marc39
11th October 2009, 09:25 AM
We need more people like George Galloway to speak out against the ridiculous arguments that equate 'Zionist' with 'Jew' and the pulling out of the race card to counter criticism of the Zionist Movement

George Galloway is a fine orator who has spoken out against the atrocities committed by Israel against both Lebanon and Gaza.

Also the way he demolished the idiots in the Senate in retort to their pathetic attempt to smear him was pure class

Has Galloway spoken out against Lebanon housing Palestinians in refugee camps for 60 years, denying them citizenship so they cannot receive healthcare and forbidding Pals from working in 70 different types of jobs?

Oh, that's right, that doesn't involve Israel. Damn.

WildCat
11th October 2009, 10:09 AM
"The use of incendiary weapons against civilians
Unfortunately for you this doesn't describe the Israeli use of white phosphorous.

WildCat
11th October 2009, 10:12 AM
Oh, and back to the topic. TinFoilTimothy, as has been pointed out Galloway supports an internationally recognized terrorist group, Hamas, which actually does target civilians and tortures to death political opponents. They also seize aid meant for civilians and appropriate it for their own uses.

Do you, like Galloway, support Hamas? If not, why would you support Galloway?

gtc
11th October 2009, 12:50 PM
Being pro-Hamas is no worse than being pro-Israel.

In fact being pro-Hamas is really a lot better than being pro-Israel. Both sides have killed innocent civilians, but Hamas are trying to fight back against an aggressor whilst Israel is an aggressor.

Why yes he does WildCat.

WildCat
11th October 2009, 12:56 PM
Why yes he does WildCat.
Of course, they're not Jews.

Delscottio
11th October 2009, 01:08 PM
Galloway is a complete prick, even ignoring his past his radio show is awful. Really bad, he bangs on about free speech yet cuts off anyone who disagrees with him. Nearly as bad a John Gaunt.

Stout
11th October 2009, 01:20 PM
Unfortunately for you this doesn't describe the Israeli use of white phosphorous.

That issue still seems to be up for debate with the *answer* hinging on the reason(s) Israel used WP in the first place. I've never seen anything from the Israelis defending it's use and given the political fallout, I'd expected something by now.

The Palestinian side accuses Israel of using it as part of it's campaign of genocide and the israelis answer with.....??

WildCat
11th October 2009, 01:39 PM
That issue still seems to be up for debate with the *answer* hinging on the reason(s) Israel used WP in the first place. I've never seen anything from the Israelis defending it's use and given the political fallout, I'd expected something by now.

The Palestinian side accuses Israel of using it as part of it's campaign of genocide and the israelis answer with.....??
So if you're going to attempt a genocide you think white phosphorous is an effective weapon? :boggled:

And Israel used it like everyone else uses it - to create a smokescreen so that troops can move without being spotted by snipers.

As an anti-personnel weapon it is a piss-poor choice. Surely conventional HE artillery shells would have been far more effective?

Marc39
11th October 2009, 01:41 PM
The Palestinian side accuses Israel of using it as part of it's campaign of genocide and the israelis answer with.....??

The Palestinian side accuses Israel of everything when they're not helping Israel, so, take what they say in public statements with a grain of salt.

The PA encouraged the IDF at the outset to take on Hamas in Gaza and, in fact, provided crucial intelligence on key Hamas military targets. When the IDF decided to end the war, nobody was more disappointed than Abbas.

Let's stay on topic folks. If you would like to split this off to make a new thread, please notify us.

funk de fino
11th October 2009, 01:47 PM
George Galloway is a star. He completely demolished the idiots in the Senate who used neocon'esque lies to try and smear him.

I could have guessed you would be clueless on this as well.

Stout
11th October 2009, 02:16 PM
So if you're going to attempt a genocide you think white phosphorous is an effective weapon? :boggled:

And Israel used it like everyone else uses it - to create a smokescreen so that troops can move without being spotted by snipers.

As an anti-personnel weapon it is a piss-poor choice. Surely conventional HE artillery shells would have been far more effective?

I don't know, on the surface burning a whole bunch of people to death does seem like a particularly horrific way to go about committing a genocide but have no clue whether WP is the best weapon for the job. I'm thinking napalm might have been a *better*, read more effective, approach if that was the goal.

I do know, however, that if genocide was Israel's goal then they failed miserably at it.

As far as I can tell, WP was used as a smokescreen, but I was hoping for something from the IDF stating that this was their intended use of this weapon.

Stout
11th October 2009, 02:26 PM
The Palestinian side accuses Israel of everything when they're not helping Israel, so, take what they say in public statements with a grain of salt.

The PA encouraged the IDF at the outset to take on Hamas in Gaza and, in fact, provided crucial intelligence on key Hamas military targets. When the IDF decided to end the war, nobody was more disappointed than Abbas.

I've been trying to:) take it as rhetoric, that is. Months ago, when I *confessed* to knowing nothing about the IvsP conflict ( I wandered into it when Cast Lead started ) I stated that I felt I was caught in the middle of a propaganda war. At this stage of the game, IMO the pro-Israel side is way ahead of the Palestinian side however there's a few loose ends hanging about, like the WP issue, that give me cause for question.

Marc, I've spent a lot of time this past couple of weeks trying to "debunk" your posts/information, yesterday's being your claim about Hamas imposing oppressive restrictions on bathing. So far I've been unable to do so.:)

WildCat
11th October 2009, 02:29 PM
I don't know, on the surface burning a whole bunch of people to death does seem like a particularly horrific way to go about committing a genocide but have no clue whether WP is the best weapon for the job. I'm thinking napalm might have been a *better*, read more effective, approach if that was the goal.
Napalm as an anti-personell weapon? Really? You think it works better than high-explosive shells?

I do know, however, that if genocide was Israel's goal then they failed miserably at it.
But this doesn't lead you to conclude genocide wasn't the goal?

As far as I can tell, WP was used as a smokescreen, but I was hoping for something from the IDF stating that this was their intended use of this weapon.
You mean something like this? (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article6150448.ece)
Yet it was clear from yesterday's briefing by Major-General Dan Harel, the IDF Deputy Chief of Staff, that commanders were concerned by the controversy. “Since this was a big buzz in the media, we issued an order 7 Jan '09 to stop using white phosphorus shells,” he said, adding: “These shells were used only to create smokescreens, in keeping with international law.”

3 seconds of googling...

Stout
11th October 2009, 02:46 PM
Napalm as an anti-personell weapon? Really? You think it works better than high-explosive shells?


...

Like I said I, don't know, on the surface a mass of sticky fire seems like a rather effective weapon to use against a bunch of people hiding inside concrete buildings. HE does sound pretty effective though, but if *I* was going to commit genocide, I'd probably go chemical.

But this doesn't lead you to conclude genocide wasn't the goal?

Yes it does.

You mean something like this?

Yes, exactly, cheers.

Tin Foil Timothy
11th October 2009, 02:49 PM
I could have guessed you would be clueless on this as well.


Those members of the Senate that Galloway demolished look clueless. They were obviously used to fabricating evidence against people that weren't quite so strong at fighting back.

I laughed my ass off watching him make them look like complete retards. :)

Tin Foil Timothy
11th October 2009, 02:59 PM
Mods please split this Gaza/Israel stuff off from this thread. Thanks.

So if you're going to attempt a genocide you think white phosphorous is an effective weapon? :boggled:

And Israel used it like everyone else uses it - to create a smokescreen so that troops can move without being spotted by snipers.

As an anti-personnel weapon it is a piss-poor choice. Surely conventional HE artillery shells would have been far more effective?

A really bad attempt at trying to link white phosphorous and genocide. NO ONE has said that white phosphorous was the principle means of the genocide in Gaza. Whatever the INTENDED use of the white phosphorous by Isdrael it was both illegal and immoral to use it in civilian areas. Israel obviously didn't care that the phosphorous would fall to the ground and land upon human beings. There was pictoral evidence of the ongoing burns on Palestinians by this evil stuff shown by the media at the time.

The Zionist Movement has of course continued to try and bring the debate on Cast Lead back into the zone of it's Fantasy World where nothing Israel does is wrong. It's even called the Balanced UN investigation which found both Hamas and Israel guilty of War crimes biased and Anti-Israel. the whole Zionist spin is a complete and utter joke.

The pedantry of legal technicalities of using such weapons can be debated ad infinitum but the morality of Isreal's genocide against the Gazans during Cast Lead is without question ..... vile.

Zeuzzz
11th October 2009, 03:19 PM
Those members of the Senate that Galloway demolished look clueless. They were obviously used to fabricating evidence against people that weren't quite so strong at fighting back.

I laughed my ass off watching him make them look like complete retards. :)

Likewsie :D

I think more people should watch the videos in the OP, and see his full testimony. Is utter class. The senate look like they dont know what hit them.

Stout
11th October 2009, 03:22 PM
The pedantry of legal technicalities of using such weapons can be debated ad infinitum but the morality of Isreal's genocide against the Gazans during Cast Lead is without question ..... vile.

Yes, it can, but that's what makes it interesting.

No one anywhere has claimed that any specific weapon in particular was THE one intended to cause this supposed genocide. I'm questioning whether genocide has any relevance at all to this conflict or whether it's just hyperbole. A real genocide would have wiped out more than the approx 1% of the intended "targets"

We can cut to the chase and reduce it down to the most basic of questions...Do you think Israel has the right to exist as it was originally created for ? IE, a Jewish state ?

I think yes, it does given the time and the circumstances it was created under and given the relatively small parcel of land that was originally awarded, I feel it was the least "the world" could have done to ease the trauma of a people who experienced a "real" genocide.

Ziggurat
11th October 2009, 03:25 PM
The pedantry of legal technicalities of using such weapons can be debated ad infinitum but the morality of Isreal's genocide against the Gazans during Cast Lead is without question ..... vile.

It used to be that you would need to kill a significant fraction of a target population for it to be considered genocide. Not any more. Genocides just aren't what they used to be. It's like some sort of weird moral inflation. Or deflation. :confused:

Marc39
11th October 2009, 04:28 PM
The pedantry of legal technicalities of using such weapons can be debated ad infinitum but the morality of Isreal's genocide against the Gazans during Cast Lead is without question ..... vile.

The hyperbolic characterization as genocide of a modest few hundred Gazan casualties incurred over the course of three weeks of war, out of a total population of 1.5 million, reflects an absence of understanding of the term genocide and a lack of knowledge of the Gaza war.

The war was incited by Hamas. The IDF went out of its way to alert Gazans of the impending military action, which is unthinkable in war.

Such ill-informed and wrongfully cavalier allegations of genocide also diminish the true acts of genocide, such as the ongoing genocide in Darfur and southern Sudan, where 4 million Sudanese have been slaughtered over the years, the biggest genocide since Nazi Germany.

Zeuzzz
11th October 2009, 05:18 PM
Post in this page that misrepresent Galloway: #282, #285

Irrelvant posts not about galloway: #281, #283, #284, #286, #287, #288, #289, #290, #291, #292, #293, #295 (actually pointed out this irrelivant stuff should split, props!) #297, #298, #299

Vaild posts about Galloway: #294, #296

Valid direct crisisisms about Galloway: NONE!

Keep it up peeps :rolleyes:

WildCat
11th October 2009, 05:44 PM
A really bad attempt at trying to link white phosphorous and genocide. NO ONE has said that white phosphorous was the principle means of the genocide in Gaza.
What genocide in Gaza?

WildCat
11th October 2009, 05:46 PM
Valid direct crisisisms about Galloway: NONE!

I don't usually encounter such willful ignorance outside of "Conspiracy Theories".

But I guess shutting your eyes while sticking your fingers in your ears chanting "I can't hear you" is the best you can do to defend your boy Galloway.

Zeuzzz
11th October 2009, 06:12 PM
I don't usually encounter such willful ignorance outside of "Conspiracy Theories".

But I guess shutting your eyes while sticking your fingers in your ears chanting "I can't hear you" is the best you can do to defend your boy Galloway.


Okay lets start again, one valid point (that I haven't already addressed) starting now.

Ziggurat
11th October 2009, 06:23 PM
Okay lets start again, one valid point (that I haven't already addressed) starting now.

You haven't addressed Galloway's denial of the Tiananmen Square massacre. You denied that he said what he said, you denied that proof was offered that he was wrong, and now you deny that the criticism was ever leveled.

You, Zeuzzz, are simply a liar.

Zeuzzz
11th October 2009, 06:34 PM
You haven't addressed Galloway's denial of the Tiananmen Square massacre. You denied that he said what he said, you denied that proof was offered that he was wrong, and now you deny that the criticism was ever leveled.

You, Zeuzzz, are simply a liar.


I answered that in quite detail, you may have missed it.

post 203 (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=5185605&postcount=203)
post 207 (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=5185631&postcount=207)

Ziggurat
11th October 2009, 07:34 PM
I answered that in quite detail

No you didn't. You posted long quotes. Not the same thing. What you did was try to defend something other than what Galloway actually said, because what he actually said is indefensible. And the crux of the quotes? That the dead weren't killed in Tiananmen Square, but only around it. Quite the ringing endorsement of Galloway's denial.

Zeuzzz
11th October 2009, 07:39 PM
No you didn't. You posted long quotes. Not the same thing. What you did was try to defend something other than what Galloway actually said, because what he actually said is indefensible. And the crux of the quotes? That the dead weren't killed in Tiananmen Square, but only around it. Quite the ringing endorsement of Galloway's denial.


But factually accurate, as said by the very media people in the square, dont you think? that no-one was killed there, and people who were there were let go peacefully. The violence happened in other places. So he was right.

Ziggurat
11th October 2009, 08:07 PM
But factually accurate, as said by the very media people in the square, dont you think? that no-one was killed there

No. The term is used to denote what happened that day in more than just the square itself. Galloway is denying that there was a massacre, not simply that it didn't happen in the square proper. Here's more audio of him in denial from a different date:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYL9GhpwpJw
You will note that not only does he try to make your point about it not being in the square, he STILL clings to the claim that he's never seen a single photo of a single dead body, and he DOESN'T specify from within the square itself when he makes that point, right after a caller tells him people were being killed just outside the square. He is trying to deny that there was any massacre at all.

Galloway is in denial about the Chinese government's crimes. And you're in denial about Galloway.

Tin Foil Timothy
11th October 2009, 08:43 PM
It used to be that you would need to kill a significant fraction of a target population for it to be considered genocide. Not any more. Genocides just aren't what they used to be. It's like some sort of weird moral inflation. Or deflation. :confused:

A shame that one's death by the evil hands of some racist entity like Zionism is devalued becuase your part of a total that is less than number x. :rolleyes:

Tin Foil Timothy
11th October 2009, 08:45 PM
Likewsie :D

I think more people should watch the videos in the OP, and see his full testimony. Is utter class. The senate look like they dont know what hit them.

That's what made me almost urinate myself laughing!!! Galloway showed up their complete incompetence easily.

Classic stuff!!! :D:D

Tin Foil Timothy
11th October 2009, 08:46 PM
What genocide in Gaza?

:dl:



---------------------------------


eta: Actually Zionist Genocide Denial, like Holocaust Denial is not funny.

Zeuzzz
11th October 2009, 09:24 PM
haha, had you seen the footage before or did you just watch it for the first time?

First time I watched it I was laughing so hard :)

maddog
11th October 2009, 10:07 PM
From as far away as possible, just like all the other MPs and American equivalents, members of Congress.

Zeuzzz
11th October 2009, 10:43 PM
No. The term is used to denote what happened that day in more than just the square itself.


Really? Who says this? How far out of the square are you still considered in-fact in the square?

Galloway is denying that there was a massacre, not simply that it didn't happen in the square proper. Here's more audio of him in denial from a different date:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYL9GhpwpJw
You will note that not only does he try to make your point about it not being in the square, he STILL clings to the claim that he's never seen a single photo of a single dead body, and he DOESN'T specify from within the square itself when he makes that point, right after a caller tells him people were being killed just outside the square. He is trying to deny that there was any massacre at all.

Galloway is in denial about the Chinese government's crimes. And you're in denial about Galloway.


What would you define a masacre? Death-wise.

funk de fino
12th October 2009, 12:30 AM
Post in this page that misrepresent Galloway: #282, #285

Irrelvant posts not about galloway: #281, #283, #284, #286, #287, #288, #289, #290, #291, #292, #293, #295 (actually pointed out this irrelivant stuff should split, props!) #297, #298, #299

Vaild posts about Galloway: #294, #296

Valid direct crisisisms about Galloway: NONE!

Keep it up peeps :rolleyes:

I have already reported the rabid, derailing Israel/Palestein posters.

However, you are lying again. I have shown plenty to criticize Galloway for.

funk de fino
12th October 2009, 12:32 AM
Those members of the Senate that Galloway demolished look clueless. They were obviously used to fabricating evidence against people that weren't quite so strong at fighting back.

I laughed my ass off watching him make them look like complete retards. :)

Making those clowns look stupid does not the man make. Even you could do that.

That you think he is great says more.

Zeuzzz
12th October 2009, 12:56 AM
However, you are lying again. I have shown plenty to criticize Galloway for.


*taps foot impatiently after finding none*

richardm
12th October 2009, 02:20 AM
Galloway is denying that there was a massacre, not simply that it didn't happen in the square proper.

Popular Tactics of Denial We Have Seen


There were no Death Camps in Germany.

funk de fino
12th October 2009, 03:48 AM
*taps foot impatiently after finding none*

I have given you links to videos that show him to be a blatant liar.

Marc39
12th October 2009, 05:24 AM
noticed you ignored this earlier,

List of Israeli assassinations
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israeli_assassinations



Thats gonna create quite a lotta anger, isn't it? Could we maybe make a comparison here between the ideology of Israels Kidon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidon) and Hamas?

This is a list of terrorists assassinated by the IDF, similar to US tactics in killing members of al-Qaeda.

So, a comparison can be made between Israeli and American "ideologies"

Marc39
12th October 2009, 05:29 AM
Marc, I've spent a lot of time this past couple of weeks trying to "debunk" your posts/information, yesterday's being your claim about Hamas imposing oppressive restrictions on bathing. So far I've been unable to do so.:)

Excerpted from the Palestinian newspaper, Al-Ayyam (9/3/09)...

Hamas in Gaza today maintains a type of tyranny... and seeks, through undemocratic means of coercion and despotism, to enact laws that enforce their ideology and their party's world-view on the entire Palestinian population in the Gaza Strip...

Hamas enforces [wearing of] the headscarf and long gown (hijab and jalabiya) on female lawyers and students; it acts to separate the sexes in government departments by imposing a separation between the sexes in offices and waiting rooms, and it has prohibited mixed folk dancing. Most dangerous, it has established Morality Units, run jointly by the Ministry of the Interior and the Ministry of Religious Affairs, which ask couples who walk on the beach to present a marriage contract, and ask any woman walking alone on the beach to have an escort [male relative], and prohibit laughing and talking for women [in public], and have issued a religious ruling (fatwa) prohibiting men from swimming in shorts, with the rest of their bodies naked.

Has Galloway condemned Hamas oppression of its people?

Ziggurat
12th October 2009, 05:53 AM
What would you define a masacre? Death-wise.

Numbers in the multiple-hundreds (minimum) certainly count. Galloway is trying to deny that there was a single one. You have apparently decided to join Galloway in his apologetics for the communist tyranny's slaughter of its own citizens.

None so blind as those who will not see. You have chosen not to see what Galloway is and does, just as Galloway has chosen not to see what the Chinese communists are and do.

Stout
12th October 2009, 06:13 AM
Excerpted from the Palestinian newspaper, Al-Ayyam (9/3/09)...



Has Galloway condemned Hamas oppression of its people?

Cheers Marc, I searched through human rights sites before ending up on the Jerusalem Post. I'm unsure whether I should trust google translations of Arabic.

I've never seen anybody on the far left condemn Hamas's subjugation of it's people ( save TFT last winter ) and this whole issue seems to revolve around *anti-western* agenda more than anything.

Seriously..if I were a Palestinian, I'd much rather be lorded over by Israel than radical Islam. No shorts on the beach ? sheesh what kind of lunatic oppression is that and why would "the left" support such nonsense ?

I can't see Galloway handing the cash over to Hamas directly as anything other that showing his solidarity with this oppressive regime and I'd really like to hear from the people who donated to Galloway's convoy what their take on where their money went is.

Marc39
12th October 2009, 06:32 AM
Seriously..if I were a Palestinian, I'd much rather be lorded over by Israel than radical Islam. No shorts on the beach ? sheesh what kind of lunatic oppression is that and why would "the left" support such nonsense ?

Very perceptive statement.

In the years prior to the Oslo Accords, when authority over the West Bank and Gaza was transferred to the PLO under Yasser Arafat, the territories, under Israeli adminstraton, had one of the fastest-growing economies in the world. Palestinians enjoyed the highest standard of living of any Arab country. GDP soared by 30% each year for ten years. Six universities were built under Israeli control. Life expectancy rose from 43 years to 72, owing to state-of-the-art Israeli medical care.

Palestinians enjoyed freedom of speech, including anti-Semitic rhetoric, and freedom of religion. Today, Christians are being persecuted out of Gaza and the West Bank by Muslims, with only 50,000 remaining. Israel's Christian population is approx. 200,000.

Billions of dollars in Israeli and US venture capital are, today, begging to be invested in turning the Palestinian territories into the Riviera of the Middle East. Unfortunately, Palestinians would rather obliterate Israel than partner with Israel.

Galloway is hurting Palestinians more than helping them by sticking his nose in their business and inciting hostility against Israel.

JihadJane
12th October 2009, 07:00 AM
Very perceptive statement.

In the years prior to the Oslo Accords, when authority over the West Bank and Gaza was transferred to the PLO under Yasser Arafat, the territories, under Israeli adminstraton, had one of the fastest-growing economies in the world. Palestinians enjoyed the highest standard of living of any Arab country. GDP soared by 30% each year for ten years. Six universities were built under Israeli control. Life expectancy rose from 43 years to 72, owing to state-of-the-art Israeli medical care.

Palestinians enjoyed freedom of speech, including anti-Semitic rhetoric, and freedom of religion. Today, Christians are being persecuted out of Gaza and the West Bank by Muslims, with only 50,000 remaining. Israel's Christian population is approx. 200,000.

Billions of dollars in Israeli and US venture capital are, today, begging to be invested in turning the Palestinian territories into the Riviera of the Middle East. Unfortunately, Palestinians would rather obliterate Israel than partner with Israel.

Galloway is hurting Palestinians more than helping them by sticking his nose in their business and inciting hostility against Israel.

Yes, the Israeli government really loved Yasser Arafat ...

Marc39
12th October 2009, 07:09 AM
Actually Zionist Genocide Denial, like Holocaust Denial is not funny.

You cannot substantiate genocide of Palestinians by Israel because no genocide has occurred. Such an allegation is a flat-out lie.

In 1948, when Israeli statehood was declared, the Arab population in the Middle East was around 70 million.

Today, the Arab population is approx. 350 million, with projections of 400 million within the coming years.

The Palestinian population in Gaza and the West Bank in 1948 was 600,000, or so. Today, there are 5 million Palestinians in the area.

A couple hundred thousand Palestinians lived in Israel in 1948. Today? 1.5 million Palestinians.

As I said, no genocide is occurring.

Ziggurat
12th October 2009, 07:19 AM
A shame that one's death by the evil hands of some racist entity like Zionism is devalued becuase your part of a total that is less than number x. :rolleyes:

9/11 was not a genocide, though the perpetrators were as evil as they come, and the deaths as horrific as can be imagined. Do I devalue the deaths of any of those victims by saying that? No, I do not. Why does refusing to call the deaths of people in Gaza a genocide amount to devaluing them? It does not. Why? For the same reason: it wasn't a genocide. Which is why you can't actually defend your claim, you can only attack me.

Stout
12th October 2009, 07:21 AM
In the years prior to the Oslo Accords, when authority over the West Bank and Gaza was transferred to the PLO under Yasser Arafat, the territories, under Israeli adminstraton, had one of the fastest-growing economies in the world. Palestinians enjoyed the highest standard of living of any Arab country. GDP soared by 30% each year for ten years. Six universities were built under Israeli control. Life expectancy rose from 43 years to 72, owing to state-of-the-art Israeli medical care.


Yes, I'd read that here before ( Wildcat posted IIRC ) and when I checked it out, it proved to be true however I don't have any handy links to back that up so I'll just go on the assumption that life in Palestine didn't suck as hard pre 2000 as it does today.

Palestinians would rather obliterate Israel than partner with Israel

That's where I have a hard time understanding "the Palestinians" and by extension, the western supporters of Palestine's right to self determination like Galloway ( see Zuezzz, this is all revalent to the OP ) who have to know that all the Palestinians have to do is eliminate this state of belligerence to force Israel's hand over the Oslo accords. IN other words, mellow out and you'll get your state. simple. Sure it might take a decade or two to convince the world that the Palis are acting in good faith but if they continue the status quo, IMO, they're going nowhere fast.

Sometimes i wonder whether the Palestinians are simply being used as pawns by both radical Islam and the anti-western left. I'm usually pretty hesitant to cite movies as sources, but not too long ago I watched that movie, Where in the World Is Osama Bin Laden ? and the one recurring theme was "ordinary Muslims" rejection of radical Islam and all the problems that come with it.

If we look at just how fellow Arab nations treat Palestinians eg 200-400k in camps in Lebanon, and the claims that those conditions are being used to support the right of return and we look at the anti-western left's outright refusal to decry the conditions that these Palestinians are being subjected to it would seem that characters like Galloway are more interested in continuing the fight to *prove* their own moral superiority than genuine concern for the Palestinian people.

Marc39
12th October 2009, 08:19 AM
That's where I have a hard time understanding "the Palestinians" and by extension, the western supporters of Palestine's right to self determination like Galloway ( see Zuezzz, this is all revalent to the OP ) who have to know that all the Palestinians have to do is eliminate this state of belligerence to force Israel's hand over the Oslo accords. IN other words, mellow out and you'll get your state. simple. Sure it might take a decade or two to convince the world that the Palis are acting in good faith but if they continue the status quo, IMO, they're going nowhere fast.

Sometimes i wonder whether the Palestinians are simply being used as pawns by both radical Islam and the anti-western left. I'm usually pretty hesitant to cite movies as sources, but not too long ago I watched that movie, Where in the World Is Osama Bin Laden ? and the one recurring theme was "ordinary Muslims" rejection of radical Islam and all the problems that come with it.

If we look at just how fellow Arab nations treat Palestinians eg 200-400k in camps in Lebanon, and the claims that those conditions are being used to support the right of return and we look at the anti-western left's outright refusal to decry the conditions that these Palestinians are being subjected to it would seem that characters like Galloway are more interested in continuing the fight to *prove* their own moral superiority than genuine concern for the Palestinian people.

"Mellow out and you'll get your state" in large part sums up the solution to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

When Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, it was the first time in history that the Palestinians had independence. No Ottoman rule. No British rule. No Egyptian rule (Egypt occupied Gaza 1948-1967*). No Israeli rule.

What did the Palestinians do? Did they dance with joy in the streets? Did they hug and kiss each other? Were there parades? Did they set out to create a Palestinian state?

No. They immediately launched rockets into Israel. Then, they proceeeded to loot and destroy state-of-the-art greenhouses, built by Israel to grow vegetables and flowers for export and gifted to Gazans by wealthy Jewish benefactors.**

Today, Gaza, the first model of Palestinian statehood, is a complete catastrophe.

Galloway sees the effects of failure, but, not the causes.

*When Egypt Was In Gaza
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1244034989178

**http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticle.asp?xfile=data/middleeast/2005/August/middleeast_August527.xml&section=middleeast&col
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9331863/
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-09-13-mideast_x.htm
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/opinion/articles/060716/24edit.htm

Zeuzzz
12th October 2009, 08:44 AM
This is a list of terrorists assassinated by the IDF, similar to US tactics in killing members of al-Qaeda.

So, a comparison can be made between Israeli and American "ideologies"


Yeah right. And think, these people are completely above the law.

Marc39
12th October 2009, 08:53 AM
Yeah right. And think, these people are completely above the law.

Yeah, right. Read your own list. It's a Who's Who of Muslim terrorists.

If the US were as effective in offing terrorists as Israel, bin Laden would have been blown away years ago.

Meanwhile, Hamas shoots Fatah merely because they are political opponents...
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/16/world/middleeast/16gaza.html

Zeuzzz
12th October 2009, 08:59 AM
Okay, so without getting bogged down in things irrelevant to GG lets continue with the last.

George was disputing the fact that there was a massacre of students inside the square, as this is the vivid image that has been created by the world media in everyones minds eye. You know? Of the tanksrolling in, and then slaughtering everyone left. He says the reality is quite different.

First of all, if there was a massacre, it wasn't in the square, so to call it the timnhanh square is factually incorrect. There may have been skimishes around the sorrounding area that caused fatalities, but the soldiers did not open fire on their own men in the sqaure and they went peacefully.

Marc39
12th October 2009, 09:02 AM
Galloway and Hamas are joined at the hip, or, more precisely, the hands...
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1069774.html#

An inconvenient fact, I know.

Ziggurat
12th October 2009, 09:03 AM
George was disputing the fact that there was a massacre of students inside the square

No, Zeuzzz. I posted that second video for a reason: Galloway has tried to deny any massacre.

Stout
12th October 2009, 09:07 AM
Oi !!! Gain independence and destroy a valuable method of food production in the most densely populated area in the world. Rather than questioning the Palestinians overall intelligence, I'd prefer to ask instead, was this a particular political faction that carried out this act or was it "the Palestinian citizenry" doing this strictly out of spite.

Seems to me that these guys constantly make the wrong decisions, like aligning themselves with Iraq during the first Gulf War which led to their eventual expulsion from Kuwait and severely damaged the economy of Palestine. Talk about shooting yourselves in the foot.

Gaza sure didn't look like a "place to be" under Egyptian rule, which moots my thoughts wondering why Gaza wouldn't want to be "absorbed" by Egypt to escape the influences of the Israelis.

Galloway sees the effects of failure, but, not the causes.

So it would appear and it's my hope that Galloway, well more specifically his supporters will eventually take a more holistic view of this situation and attribute "some of the blame" to the Palestinian leadership ( and the greater Arab world ) for this ongoing humanitarian disaster rather than attribute it all to Israel. That is, if they're actually interested in seeing this situation solved rather than displaying their high moral dudgeon.

funk de fino
12th October 2009, 09:14 AM
An old piece from the left about Galloway.

Some interesting stuff about his sources of money.

http://www.workersliberty.org/node/905

funk de fino
12th October 2009, 09:24 AM
'Rise up, rise up and demolish the tyrant, the dictator Mubarak'

Goading Egyptians into the overthrow of Mubarak. Thought he was anti violence?

Strange call for one who supported the re-election of Irans president. A lot on the left were not too happy with that one.

Zeuzzz
12th October 2009, 09:35 AM
Galloway and Hamas are joined at the hip, or, more precisely, the hands...
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1069774.html#

An inconvenient fact, I know.


Link dosn't work.

And thats just slly.

Marc39
12th October 2009, 09:43 AM
Link dosn't work.

And thats just slly.

Galloway joining hands with Hamas hands that have blood on them--Palestinian and Israeli blood--is not silly...

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1069774.html#

Zeuzzz
12th October 2009, 09:46 AM
An old piece from the left about Galloway.

Some interesting stuff about his sources of money.

http://www.workersliberty.org/node/905


Ahh, yes. His sources of money. At the same time as nearly HALF the british MPs are being told to pay back taxpayers money they illegally stole from us, Galloway has been found to not have taken a dime.

And that article is extremely biased, but this is a good point:
Framed up?

Is Galloway the victim of a frame-up by the Daily Telegraph and/or the British secret service? It is certainly possible that he is. We do not know.

The Telegraph's charges were based on documents allegedly found in a ruined office in Baghdad. Among other documents found there were correspondence with Edward Heath, Robin Cook, and a cleric. Those people have confirmed that the correspondence was genuine.

Marc39
12th October 2009, 11:14 AM
Oi !!! Gain independence and destroy a valuable method of food production in the most densely populated area in the world. Rather than questioning the Palestinians overall intelligence, I'd prefer to ask instead, was this a particular political faction that carried out this act or was it "the Palestinian citizenry" doing this strictly out of spite.

Seems to me that these guys constantly make the wrong decisions, like aligning themselves with Iraq during the first Gulf War which led to their eventual expulsion from Kuwait and severely damaged the economy of Palestine. Talk about shooting yourselves in the foot.

Gaza sure didn't look like a "place to be" under Egyptian rule, which moots my thoughts wondering why Gaza wouldn't want to be "absorbed" by Egypt to escape the influences of the Israelis.



So it would appear and it's my hope that Galloway, well more specifically his supporters will eventually take a more holistic view of this situation and attribute "some of the blame" to the Palestinian leadership ( and the greater Arab world ) for this ongoing humanitarian disaster rather than attribute it all to Israel. That is, if they're actually interested in seeing this situation solved rather than displaying their high moral dudgeon.

Galloway is a hack opportunist with no insight into the history of the Palestiniain-Israeli conlict, exploiting it for his own visibility.

Ponder these questions: Had the Arab countries who had attacked Israel in 1948 defeated Israel, would they have given the land to the Palestinians for a homeland? Of course not.

Had the Arabs defeated Israel in the '67 War, would they have given the West Bank and Gaza to the Palestinians as a homeland? Of course not.

One need only look back into history for proof: During the 1948 War, Egypt illegally seized Gaza and Jordan illegally seized Judea and Samaria, the Biblical name for land that King Hussein, sacrilegiously, changed to "the West Bank. Both countries would illegally occupy the Palestinians for 20 years, denying them statehood.

Earlier, when Palestine was controlled by the [Muslim]Ottoman Turks for hundreds of years, the Muslim Ottomans did not grant statehood to the mostly Muslim Palestinian population.

The reality is...Jews--not Arabs--are the only people who have shown a willingness to cede land to Palestinians and the only ones who have been truly amenable to a Palestinian state.

Zeuzzz
12th October 2009, 11:15 AM
George Galloway VS the US Senate Part 1
fawRfc_oZBs

George Galloway VS the US Senate Part 2
vK0hGESEFuw

I respect Galloway in many things, but am never quite sure why he is picked on in the puclic as much as he is by the media and political parties (often wishing they had not picked on him in public later) Won four court cases against newspapers, and the Senate case was dropped as it was all fabricated.

Loads of people I know said that he lied about everything in the speech. Did he?

Why do people keep trying to smear his name (and fail every time)? Why is he so important to silence in peoples opinions?

And most importantly, whats factually wrong with his testimony to the senate while under oath? I think his speech will clear up many misconceptions about Galloway.


For the senates (pathetic) responsce, the full 40 minute clip can be seen via cspan on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCL-IL5yvr8

All above videos highly recommended.

Tin Foil Timothy
12th October 2009, 11:32 AM
You cannot substantiate genocide of Palestinians by Israel because no genocide has occurred. Such an allegation is a flat-out lie.

In 1948, when Israeli statehood was declared, the Arab population in the Middle East was around 70 million.

Today, the Arab population is approx. 350 million, with projections of 400 million within the coming years.

The Palestinian population in Gaza and the West Bank in 1948 was 600,000, or so. Today, there are 5 million Palestinians in the area.

A couple hundred thousand Palestinians lived in Israel in 1948. Today? 1.5 million Palestinians.

As I said, no genocide is occurring.

Make your mind up. As far as I know you are correct in that no genocide of the Palestinians is occurring. No one has said it is so why you are making that point is odd.

The Gazan Genocide did occur though.

And just like I am not a Holocaust Denier I am also not a Gazan Genocide Denier.

To me a life is a life no matter what it's race therefore I place Gazan Genocide deniers in the same category of Holocaust Deniers.

The rest of your post is completely redundant as it has nothing to do with the Gazan Genocide.

Ziggurat
12th October 2009, 11:36 AM
The Gazan Genocide did occur though.

Why would you say that? And what do you think genocide is?

Tin Foil Timothy
12th October 2009, 11:41 AM
Galloway is a hack opportunist with no insight into the history of the Palestiniain-Israeli conlict, exploiting it for his own visibility.

Actually Galloway is someone who has stood up to the pro-Zionist Western Establishment (Including showing them to be complete and utter idiots ) to the point of sacrificing a level of his career. He should be applauded for spaeking the truth in an ocean of lies



The reality is...Jews--not Arabs--are the only people who have shown a willingness to cede land to Palestinians and the only ones who have been truly amenable to a Palestinian state.

Zionists on the other hand have shown utter contempt for the Palestinians. They have stolen their land, bulldozed their towns and villages, occupied and colonized on the ever decreasing land the Palestinians have left, Committed genocide against them, Held a regime of Apartheid over them and generally treated them like Untermenchen

The Zionist Movement is an embarrassment to the Jewish people IMO

Zeuzzz
12th October 2009, 11:47 AM
No one has said it is so why you are making that point is odd.


Tis odd, indeedy :rolleyes:

Tin Foil Timothy
12th October 2009, 11:51 AM
Tis odd, indeedy :rolleyes:

It's almost like it was regurgitated from a Zionist propaganda manual without any real grounding behind it all.

Marc39
12th October 2009, 11:55 AM
Make your mind up. As far as I know you are correct in that no genocide of the Palestinians is occurring. No one has said it is so why you are making that point is odd.

The Gazan Genocide did occur though.

You are even more oblivious to the facts than I had thought.

Gaza is inhabited by Palestinians. Yeah, that's right.

You concede no genocide of the Palestinians is occurring, however, you contradict yourself in suggesting genocide did occur in Gaza.

Your posts would be comical were they not so tragically ignorant. Maybe they are tragicomedy.

Permit me to enlighten you further.

A few hundred deaths, out of a total Palestinian population of 1.5 million, as a consequence of a war initiated by Palestiniains, does not constitute genocide, particularly given the Israeli military took pains to warn the population of military intervention.

To provide much-needed context, 4 million dead Christians deliberately slaughtered by Muslims in Sudan is genocide.

And just like I am not a Holocaust Denier I am also not a Gazan Genocide Denier.

Because you are unfamiliar with genocide and key facts related to the Gaza war, such as Gaza populated by Palestinians.

Please make an attempt to become acquainted with the subject matter. Correcting you, repeatedly, is tedious and it must be embarrassing.

Marc39
12th October 2009, 12:04 PM
Actually Galloway is someone who has stood up to the pro-Zionist Western Establishment (Including showing them to be complete and utter idiots ) to the point of sacrificing a level of his career. He should be applauded for spaeking the truth in an ocean of lies




Zionists on the other hand have shown utter contempt for the Palestinians. They have stolen their land, bulldozed their towns and villages, occupied and colonized on the ever decreasing land the Palestinians have left, Committed genocide against them, Held a regime of Apartheid over them and generally treated them like Untermenchen

The Zionist Movement is an embarrassment to the Jewish people IMO

The pathological derisive use of the term "Zionist" smacks of anti-Semitism.

Zionism is merely Jewish self-determination, which the UN seeks for every people.

The disparagement of Jewish self-determination is as anti-Semitic as denying Black people self-determination would be racist.

Zeuzzz
12th October 2009, 12:38 PM
Zionists on the other hand have shown utter contempt for the Palestinians. They have stolen their land, bulldozed their towns and villages, occupied and colonized on the ever decreasing land the Palestinians have left, Committed genocide against them, Held a regime of Apartheid over them and generally treated them like Untermenchen

The Zionist Movement is an embarrassment to the Jewish people IMO
:clap:

And people wonder why there are some extremists in Gaza :rolleyes: Some may even call it defence.

Pardalis
12th October 2009, 12:46 PM
What would you define a masacre? Death-wise.

This:

http://www.tamilnational.com/news-flash/1183-the-hidden-massacre-20000-killed.html

20 times more than the casualties in Gaza, and the IDF has alot more military might than the Sri-Lanka government.

20 times more people killed than in Gaza, and not a peep from the Left.

Zeuzzz
12th October 2009, 12:49 PM
The Zionist Movement is an embarrassment to the Jewish people IMO


To an extent yes, but theres hardly any support for zionism now, even the majority of jews themselves dont support them,

Its too easy to make a comparison between Hamas and Zionism. So I wont.

Pardalis
12th October 2009, 12:51 PM
even the majority of jews themselves dont support them

Show us your source.

Zeuzzz
12th October 2009, 12:58 PM
This:

http://www.tamilnational.com/news-flash/1183-the-hidden-massacre-20000-killed.html

20 times more than the casualties in Gaza, and the IDF has alot more military might than the Sri-Lanka government.

20 times more people killed than in Gaza, and not a peep from the Left.


Dreadful. When will the media learn to cover the people in greatest need? And no, its nothing to do with "the left" or "right" if they do not know it happened.

funk de fino
12th October 2009, 01:08 PM
Ahh, yes. His sources of money. At the same time as nearly HALF the british MPs are being told to pay back taxpayers money they illegally stole from us, Galloway has been found to not have taken a dime.

Ah yes, deflection tactics. Galloway was found to be dishonest about where he got his money for his "charity" and took it from the UAE, saudi and also Iraqi businessmen from the Oil for food program. He was for sanctions against Iraq then he was sucking up to Saddam a few years later.

And that article is extremely biased, but this is a good point: Biased yet it is from people who should be supporting him, these are his people. They are criticizing him and you say it is biased. You just cannot lose with that can you?

I like how you manage to cherry pick something out of that we already know. Yet do not mention this.

Neither politically nor morally can we line up with George Galloway. Even if he is entirely innocent of the Telegraph's charges, political association with him is an enormous liability for socialists who would not under any circumstances take money from the United Arab Emirates or Saudi Arabia.

How tragically dishonest you are.

Marc39
12th October 2009, 01:09 PM
To an extent yes, but theres hardly any support for zionism now, even the majority of jews themselves dont support them,

Its too easy to make a comparison between Hamas and Zionism. So I wont.

Complete and utter ignorance and anti-Semitic, to boot.

Jews have an inherent right to independence, which is what Zionism is. To deny Jews independence defines Jew hatred.

Congressman John Lewis, a civil rights pioneer, wrote the following letter in support of Israel and the Zionist spirit (San Francisco Chronicle, 1/21/02)...


“I have a dream” for peace in the Middle East
King's Special Bond with Israel
by John Lewis

THE REV. MARTIN Luther King Jr. understood the meaning of discrimination and oppression. He sought ways to achieve liberation and peace, and he thus understood that a special relationship exists between African Americans and American Jews.

This message was true in his time and is true today.

He knew that both peoples were uprooted involuntarily from their homelands. He knew that both peoples were shaped by the tragic experience of slavery. He knew that both peoples were forced to live in ghettoes, victims of segregation.He knew that both peoples were subject to laws passed with the particular intent of oppressing them simply because they were Jewish or black. He knew that both peoples have been subjected to oppression and genocide on a level unprecedented in history.

King understood how important it is not to stand by in the face of injustice. He understood the cry, “Let my people go.”

Long before the plight of the Jews in the Soviet Union was on the front pages, he raised his voice. “I cannot stand idly by, even though I happen to live in the United States and even though I happen to be an American Negro and not be concerned about what happens to the Jews in Soviet Russia. For what happens to them happens to me and you, and we must be concerned.”

During his lifetime King witnessed the birth of Israel and the continuing struggle to build a nation. He consistently reiterated his stand on the Israel — Arab conflict, stating “Israel's right to exist as a state in security is uncontestable.” It was no accident that King emphasized “security” in his statements on the Middle East,

On March 25, 1968, less than two weeks before his tragic death, he spoke out with clarity and directness stating, “peace for Israel means security, and we must stand with all our might to protect its right to exist, its territorial integrity. I see Israel as one of the great outposts of democracy in the world, and a marvelous example of what can be done, how desert land can be transformed into an oasis of brotherhood and democracy. Peace for Israel means security and that security must be a reality.”

During the recent U.N. Conference on Racism held in Durban, South Africa, we were all shocked by the attacks on Jews, Israel and Zionism. The United States of America stood up against these vicious attacks.

Once again, the words of King ran through my memory, “I solemnly pledge to do my utmost to uphold the fair name of the Jews — because bigotry in any form is an affront to us all.”

During an appearance at Harvard University shortly before his death, a student stood up and asked King to address himself to the issue of Zionism. The question was clearly hostile. King responded, “When people criticize Zionists they mean Jews, you are talking anti-Semitism.”

King taught us many lessons. As turbulence continues to grip the Middle East, his words should continue to serve as our guide. I am convinced that were he alive today he would speak clearly calling for an end to the violence between Israelis and Arabs.

He would call upon his fellow Nobel Peace Prize winner, Yasser Arafat, to fulfill the dream of peace and do all that is within his power to stop the violence.

He would urge continuing negotiations to reduce tensions and bring about the first steps toward genuine peace.

King had a dream of an “oasis of brotherhood and democracy” in the Middle East.

As we celebrate his life and legacy, let us work for the day when Israelis and Palestinians, Jews and Muslims, will be able to sit in peace “under his vine and fig tree and none shall make him afraid.

Thunder
12th October 2009, 01:13 PM
Complete and utter ignorance and anti-Semitic, to boot.

Jews have an inherent right to independence, which is what Zionism is. To deny Jews independence defines Jew hatred.

No, being anti-Zionist was and is a legitimate political stance. One can be against the existence of a seperate and discriminatory nation-state for members of the Jewish faith (and their non-Jewish children and grandchildren) and yet hold no bigoted feelings towards Jews.

Almost ALL Orthodox Jews were anti-Zionist before Israel was founded and many are still today, for clear religious reasonings, NOT because they hate Jews.

To argue that it is anti-Jewish to be anti-Zionist is just plain ignorant.

And no, the 18 million or so Jews, who after 2,000 years have become varied very greatly in ethnicity, geography, color, and religious practise, DO NOT have an inherent right to an independent, discirminatory nation-state.

Thunder
12th October 2009, 01:21 PM
The pathological derisive use of the term "Zionist" smacks of anti-Semitism.

Zionism is merely Jewish self-determination, which the UN seeks for every people.

The disparagement of Jewish self-determination is as anti-Semitic as denying Black people self-determination would be racist.

Zionism is NOT self-determination. To argue such means that the Jews who returned to Israel after the Babylonian exile were in fact, Zionist.

Zionism is a MODERN day political belief. Not an ancient one. Stop playing with history.

Arcade22
12th October 2009, 01:25 PM
Zionism is NOT self-determination. To argue such means that the Jews who returned to Israel after the Babylonian exile were in fact, Zionist.

Its not? The Jews creating a land for their own and deciding how to run it isn't self-determination?

Marc39
12th October 2009, 01:40 PM
Dreadful. When will the media learn to cover the people in greatest need? And no, its nothing to do with "the left" or "right" if they do not know it happened.

Palestinians receive billions in aid. Their own wretched leader, Arafat, croaked a billionaire. His wife lives in luxury in Paris.

The truth of the matter is Palestinians have turned being refugees into a career, as the only intergenerational refugee group in history, now in their fourth generation of, ahem, "refugee status".

Palestinians are their own worst enemies, having rejected statehood time and again and dedicating their lives to terrorism and rejectionism toward Israel. There's no career potential in this.

Excusing their poor choices in life doesn't cut it any longer. Jews chose statehood, instead, transforming desert into one of the most advanced societies on the planet. Today, more Israeli technology companies are listed on NASDAQ, except for the US, representing over $12 billion in revenue collectively. Warren Buffett recently purchased a successful Israeli manufacturing firm.

Unless you're suggesting Jews are inherently superior to Palestinians, the difference between Israelis and Palestinians is Jews have made the correct decisions and the Palestinians have made catastrophic decisions.

Galloway and the other mental defectives bashing Israel are lost.

Zeuzzz
12th October 2009, 01:54 PM
[ALL BITS NOTHING TO DO WITH GALLOWAY DELETED.]

Galloway and the other mental defectives bashing Israel are lost.

Where are they lost?

Down that road that some people call equal human rights for all?

Thunder
12th October 2009, 01:56 PM
The truth of the matter is Palestinians have turned being refugees into a career

Palestinians are their own worst enemies, .

funny, then the Jews and Palestinians have a great deal in common.

Jews have turned whining about the past and demanding compensation for past persecution a 24/7/365 job and hobby..and have become their own worst enemies when it comes to the peace process.

I'm still waiting for the demands of compensation from Spain for the Inquisition to begin.

Marc39
12th October 2009, 02:03 PM
Where are they lost?

Down that road that some people call equal human rights for all?

Last time I checked, the "poor Palestinians" comprised Gaza, where Galloway swoops in when a photo-op suits him.

Tin Foil Timothy
12th October 2009, 02:21 PM
No, being anti-Zionist was and is a legitimate political stance. One can be against the existence of a seperate and discriminatory nation-state for members of the Jewish faith (and their non-Jewish children and grandchildren) and yet hold no bigoted feelings towards Jews.

Almost ALL Orthodox Jews were anti-Zionist before Israel was founded and many are still today, for clear religious reasonings, NOT because they hate Jews.

To argue that it is anti-Jewish to be anti-Zionist is just plain ignorant.

And no, the 18 million or so Jews, who after 2,000 years have become varied very greatly in ethnicity, geography, color, and religious practise, DO NOT have an inherent right to an independent, discirminatory nation-state.

Well said parky!!

I guess it's common for those backed into a corner to pull out the tired old race card. to equate Anti-Zionism with racism is complete ridiculous and quite embarrassing.

Zeuzzz
12th October 2009, 02:22 PM
Last time I checked, the "poor Palestinians" comprised Gaza, where Galloway swoops in when a photo-op suits him.


He goes to Gaza for photo OPs now eh? Not to feed the suffering and starving?

Tin Foil Timothy
12th October 2009, 02:22 PM
This:

http://www.tamilnational.com/news-flash/1183-the-hidden-massacre-20000-killed.html

20 times more than the casualties in Gaza, and the IDF has alot more military might than the Sri-Lanka government.

20 times more people killed than in Gaza, and not a peep from the Left.

Still doing the old diversion to other world injustices I see Pardalis.

Marc39
12th October 2009, 02:24 PM
Well said parky!!

I guess it's common for those backed into a corner to pull out the tired old race card. to equate Anti-Zionism with racism is complete ridiculous and quite embarrassing.

Anti-Zionism--denying Jews the right of self-determination--is fundamentally anti-Semitic.

There are, I'm sure, numerous Jew-hating chat rooms where such a viewpoint is warmly welcomed.

Tin Foil Timothy
12th October 2009, 02:26 PM
He goes to Gaza for photo OPs now eh? Not to feed the suffering and starving?

Even if Galloway did go to Gaza for a Photo Op it's a whole lot better than going to Gaza to commit genocide 'like wot' those racist Zionists did.

Thunder
12th October 2009, 02:26 PM
Well said parky!!

I guess it's common for those backed into a corner to pull out the tired old race card. to equate Anti-Zionism with racism is complete ridiculous and quite embarrassing.

more like "to accuse ALL anti-Zionist with anti-Semitism is completely rediculous and quite embarrasing". its a feeble and pathetic attempt at deligitimizing ANY of the opinion of ANY of you opponents.

I would love for someone to explain to me how the great majority of Orthodox Rabbis before 1948 were indeed anti-Semitic. this would be a hoot.

hell, even my own Orthodox Jewish relatives agree that from a purely religious standpoint, Zionist is antithetical to Judaism, because the Jews are forbidden from having independence in Israel again until the Messuah comes. But the Rabbis also declared that once land in Israel is under Jewish rule (means of conquest not withstanding), it is thne forbidden to give up the land.

So, basically, Orthodox Jews love the LAND of Israel, but don't neccesareily believe that Jews are obligated to like or even recognize the government in Israel.

Pardalis
12th October 2009, 02:27 PM
Still doing the old diversion to other world injustices I see Pardalis.

This thread is not about Israel. But nice to see you are still ignoring other injustices in the world, real genocides.

Marc39
12th October 2009, 02:30 PM
Even if Galloway did go to Gaza for a Photo Op it's a whole lot better than going to Gaza to commit genocide 'like wot' those racist Zionists did.

So, your secret debating technique, I see, is merely to repeat the same erroneous junk information about genocides, repeatedly?

Not working out too well, now, is it?

Tin Foil Timothy
12th October 2009, 02:31 PM
Anti-Zionism--denying Jews the right of self-determination--is fundamentally anti-Semitic.

There are, I'm sure, numerous Jew-hating chat rooms where such a viewpoint is warmly welcomed.

Your argument is embarrassing.

No one has the right of self-determination. We all have to abide by the laws of the land. A political agenda to occupy and colonize a land by committing violence and theft against others is nothing to do with racial self-determination.

I would advise you stop equating Zionism and Jews. They are not mutually inclusive

IDB87
12th October 2009, 02:35 PM
No, Zeuzzz. I posted that second video for a reason: Galloway has tried to deny any massacre.

Bump.

Zeuzz stop derailing your own thread.

Zeuzzz
12th October 2009, 02:45 PM
^That makes no sense at all.

Check the record, I'v tried to keep it to galloway, other people have sprung off on a rather predictable tangents.

Zeuzzz
12th October 2009, 02:52 PM
I would advise you stop equating Zionism and Jews. They are not mutually inclusive


Well, I'll wait and see how many pots it takes before someone does this. Wont be long :D

Galloway gives his thoughts, and the difference between jews, zionists and Israelis here:

RV9QOzhKOfQ

Marc39
12th October 2009, 03:04 PM
Your argument is embarrassing.

Your not knowing that Palestinians comprise Gaza, after posting incessantly about Gaza, and being unaware of what constitutes genocide, and, suggesting, on one hand, there has been no genocide of Palestinians, then, suggesting Palestinian genocide in Gaza...That's embarrassing!

No one has the right of self-determination.

Under international law, every people is entitled to self-determination.

UN Charter, Article 1.2...
[The purpose of the UN is] To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace.


UN Charter, Article 55...
With a view to the creation of conditions of stability and well-being which are necessary for peaceful and friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples...

The right to self-determination has been further established by the UN Human Rights Committee 10 and the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination 11.

International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights...
All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.

The right to self-determination is also recognized by...

The Declaration of Principles of International Law Concerning Friendly Relations and Cooperation Among States

The Helsinki Final Act

The African Charter of Human and Peoples' Rights

The Charter of Paris for a New Europe

The Vienna Declaration and Program of Action

Tin Foil Timothy
12th October 2009, 03:11 PM
Your not knowing that Palestinians comprise Gaza, after posting incessantly about Gaza, and being unaware of what constitutes genocide, and, suggesting, on one hand, there has been no genocide of Palestinians, then, suggesting Palestinian genocide in Gaza...That's embarrassing!



All I can say is note the difference between 'occuring' and 'occured'

Also note that I said that as AFAIK there is no genocide of Palestinians ( in Gaza or elsewhere ) occurring. However there was a genocide of Palestinians in Gaza during Cast Lead. Note also that I sometimes refer to the people of Gaza as Gazans.

I am really trying to get back to using this thread to recognizing the oratory brilliance and truth telling of George Galloway who is a hero in the political world.

Marc39
12th October 2009, 03:17 PM
All I can say is note the difference between 'occuring' and 'occured'

Also note that I said that as AFAIK there is no genocide of Palestinians ( in Gaza or elsewhere ) occurring. However there was a genocide of Palestinians in Gaza during Cast Lead. Note also that I sometimes refer to the people of Gaza as Gazans.

I am really trying to get back to using this thread to recognizing the oratory brilliance and truth telling of George Galloway who is a hero in the political world.

Now, you're trying to back-pedal? In one breath, you state there have been no genocides of Palestinians. In the second breath, a genocide occurred in Gaza.

Sooo, in addition to not knowing what genocide is, you are unaware that Gaza is comprised of Palestinians.

Your posts are stunningly ill-conceived.

Tin Foil Timothy
12th October 2009, 03:20 PM
I respect Galloway in many things, but am never quite sure why he is picked on in the puclic as much as he is by the media and political parties (often wishing they had not picked on him in public later) .

It's because he speaks out against the Zionist Movement. He also speaks out against the neocon agenda.

I am never confused as to why he is so vilified in the 'press'

In answer to the question: "So whats actually factually wrong with galloways Senate Testimony?"

Absolutely nothing. It's pure brilliance. I love watching the idiots in the Senate squirm and almost implode with the sterilization of their timy little craniums. :) :)

Tin Foil Timothy
12th October 2009, 03:27 PM
Now, you're trying to back-pedal? In one breath, you state there have been no genocides of Palestinians. In the second breath, a genocide occurred in Gaza.

Sooo, in addition to not knowing what genocide is, you are unaware that Gaza is comprised of Palestinians.

Your posts are stunningly ill-conceived.

Seriously my friend I would advise you slow down a bit and actually read the posts before embarrassingly making false accusations ...

here is what i said ... I've used bold and italics to help you understand the difference between 'occurring' and 'occurred'

Make your mind up. As far as I know you are correct in that no genocide of the Palestinians is occurring. No one has said it is so why you are making that point is odd.

The Gazan Genocide did occur though.

And just like I am not a Holocaust Denier I am also not a Gazan Genocide Denier.

To me a life is a life no matter what it's race therefore I place Gazan Genocide deniers in the same category of Holocaust Deniers.

The rest of your post is completely redundant as it has nothing to do with the Gazan Genocide.

Now perhaps you can see I didn't say there had been no genocides of Palestinians. I said there is ( AFAIK ) no genocide of the Palestinians occurring.

Jeez, this is so difficult and tedious sometimes. Why can't people read posts properly? :rolleyes:

Marc39
12th October 2009, 03:33 PM
Seriously my friend I would advise you slow down a bit and actually read the posts before embarrassingly making false accusations ...

here is what i said ... I've used bold and italics to help you understand the difference between 'occurring' and 'occurred'



Now perhaps you can see I didn't say there had been no genocides of Palestinians. I said there is ( AFAIK ) no genocide of the Palestinians occurring.

Jeez, this is so difficult and tedious sometimes. Why can't people read posts properly? :rolleyes:

Dissemble dissemble. Well, I'm glad to have enlightened you of the fact that Palestinians live in Gaza. The concept of genocide, however, is impenetrable.

Tin Foil Timothy
12th October 2009, 03:41 PM
Dissemble dissemble. Well, I'm glad to have enlightened you of the fact that Palestinians live in Gaza. The concept of genocide, however, is impenetrable.

Sometimes admitting you were wrong really does wonders for your credibility.

Marc39
12th October 2009, 03:47 PM
Sometimes admitting you were wrong really does wonders for your credibility.

My demolishing your posts eliminates the need for you to admit your complete unfamiliarity with Middle East affairs.

No need to thank me, I'm a giver.

Undesired Walrus
12th October 2009, 03:48 PM
Given that Galloway supported the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, how can he be seen to be on the side of the Muslims?

IDB87
12th October 2009, 03:50 PM
^That makes no sense at all.

Check the record, I'v tried to keep it to galloway, other people have sprung off on a rather predictable tangents.

Ziggurat asked you something which you ignored - you then continued to derail the thread, making it about Israel.

When reminded of his question, you make a comment regarding your being on topic, and then continue to ignore his question and make comments about Israel.

I don't quite get it.

WildCat
12th October 2009, 04:06 PM
Ziggurat asked you something which you ignored - you then continued to derail the thread, making it about Israel.

When reminded of his question, you make a comment regarding your being on topic, and then continue to ignore his question and make comments about Israel.

I don't quite get it.
TFT is obsessed with Israel, he never posts about anything else. Everything in the world, according to TFT, is the fault of "zionists" and Israel.

But it's not at all because he's a raging anti-semite, no no no!

Tin Foil Timothy
12th October 2009, 04:07 PM
Given that Galloway supported the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, how can he be seen to be on the side of the Muslims?

Some people can't see past the binary thinking of "Islam" v. "Judeo-Christian-Zionist-neocons"

Galloway can. I pride myself as being able to see past it too.

Tin Foil Timothy
12th October 2009, 04:10 PM
Ziggurat asked you something which you ignored - you then continued to derail the thread, making it about Israel.

When reminded of his question, you make a comment regarding your being on topic, and then continue to ignore his question and make comments about Israel.

I don't quite get it.TFT is obsessed with Israel, he never posts about anything else. Everything in the world, according to TFT, is the fault of "zionists" and Israel.

But it's not at all because he's a raging anti-semite, no no no!

Given IDB87 is talking to Zeuzzz why on earth have you chimed in and made some absurd claim that I think everything in the world is the fault of "zionists" and Israel (and worse pulling out the tired old race card ).

I would advise reading back through the thread and reviewing the sub-conversations.

WildCat
12th October 2009, 04:16 PM
Given IDB87 is talking to Zeuzzz why on earth have you chimed in and made some absurd claim that I think everything in the world is the fault of "zionists" and Israel (and worse pulling out the tired old race card ).

I would advise reading back through the thread and reviewing the sub-conversations.
Hey, not my fault he didn't use the "quote" function correctly.

But it's safe to assume that if you're making a post it's a semi-coherent rant against Israel and "zionists".

Zeuzzz
12th October 2009, 04:34 PM
Given that Galloway supported the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, how can he be seen to be on the side of the Muslims?


:bwall

What, all 1.57 Billion of them?!

Of which 99.999999999% live happy peaceful lives, without ever the intent of violence, despite them studying the same reigous books as their marginalized yet overhyped extremist elements.

PS: He's not on their side anyway, he just thinks that afghanis have a right to defend their country aggainst aggressors. And wants the troops back as soon as possible to save lives.

Pardalis
12th October 2009, 04:38 PM
:bwall

What, all 157 Billion of them?!

There are only 6.8 billion humans on the planet.

Tin Foil Timothy
12th October 2009, 04:38 PM
:bwall

What, all 157 Billion of them?!

Of which 99.999999999% live happy peaceful lives, without ever the intent of violence, despite them studying the same reigous books as their marginalizes yet overhyped extremist elements.

... and despite the tedious anti-Islamic Zionist propaganda


PS: He's not on their side anyway, he just thinks that afghanis have a right to defend their country aggainst aggressors. And wants the troops back as soon as possible to save lives.

And I agree with Galloway on this wholeheartedly. Any 'Western' Troops out there are doing nothing to defend their country and are merely serving a selfish aggressor, while the Afghans are defending their country

Zeuzzz
12th October 2009, 04:39 PM
I think the above post requires this to be reposted, as the major stereotype prevalent around the world at the moment is the muslim = evil type.

aSxC_daiu5w

Zeuzzz
12th October 2009, 04:42 PM
There are only 6.8 billion humans on the planet.

Theres a dot after the 1. :p

Sword_Of_Truth
12th October 2009, 05:53 PM
And I agree with Galloway on this wholeheartedly. Any 'Western' Troops out there are doing nothing to defend their country and are merely serving a selfish aggressor, while the Afghans are defending their country

Another 9/11 twoofer pledges his allegiance to the terrorists he doesn't think exist.

WildCat
12th October 2009, 06:10 PM
:bwall

What, all 1.57 Billion of them?!

Of which 99.999999999% live happy peaceful lives, without ever the intent of violence, despite them studying the same reigous books as their marginalized yet overhyped extremist elements.

PS: He's not on their side anyway, he just thinks that afghanis have a right to defend their country aggainst aggressors. And wants the troops back as soon as possible to save lives.
So there are only 2 Muslims who don't "live happy peaceful lives, without ever the intent of violence"?

Stout
12th October 2009, 06:47 PM
No one has the right of self-determination. We all have to abide by the laws of the land. A political agenda to occupy and colonize a land by committing violence and theft against others is nothing to do with racial self-determination.



Yes, they do, however the idea goes easier if you take out the word racial and replace it with cultural in your second sentence.

Stout
12th October 2009, 06:51 PM
<snip>, as the major stereotype prevalent around the world at the moment is the muslim = evil type.



Th Fox news viewers maybe, but for purposes of this discussion, I hope we can all draw a thick black line between Muslims and radicals. Hamas are radicals and Galloway supports them.

Tin Foil Timothy
12th October 2009, 09:04 PM
TFT is obsessed with Israel, he never posts about anything else. Everything in the world, according to TFT, is the fault of "zionists" and Israel.

But it's not at all because he's a raging anti-semite, no no no!

Is that what it says in "The Protocols Of the Defenders Of Zionism" ?

"If all else fails pull out the anti-Semitism card"

Cuddles
13th October 2009, 02:54 AM
Threads merged. Please do not start multiple threads on the same topic.

funk de fino
13th October 2009, 03:06 AM
I am really trying to get back to using this thread to recognizing the oratory brilliance and truth telling of George Galloway who is a hero in the political world.

No, you are not. You are continuing with the obssessive and creepy Israel bashing. Something you love to do from the comfort of your home. You are a do nothing. Feigning outrage. Crocodile tears.

Galloway is a proven liar, he is not a truth teller. He is only a hero to those who hate the West.

Arcade22
13th October 2009, 03:08 AM
I am really trying to get back to using this thread to recognizing the oratory brilliance and truth telling of George Galloway who is a hero in the political world.

:dl:

Arcade22
13th October 2009, 03:09 AM
No, you are not. You are continuing with the obssessive and creepy Israel bashing. Something you love to do from the comfort of your home. You are a do nothing. Feigning outrage. Crocodile tears.

Galloway is a proven liar, he is not a truth teller. He is only a hero to those who hate the West.

Well said! http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/188094accecde54de2.gif (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=17779)

richardm
13th October 2009, 03:20 AM
Galloway has been found to not have taken a dime.


Slightly misleading statement, there. He may not have over-claimed according to the rules, but he's certainly helped himself from the pot of dimes (http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/george_galloway/bethnal_green_and_bow#expenses) to the tune of £136,390 in 2007/8. And that is over-and-above his MP's salary.

Edit: his expenses claims are legitimate, but to say he hasn't taken a dime is wrong.

funk de fino
13th October 2009, 05:33 AM
And I agree with Galloway on this wholeheartedly. Any 'Western' Troops out there are doing nothing to defend their country and are merely serving a selfish aggressor, while the Afghans are defending their country

Which Afghans are defending their country? What about the AQ guys? The Pakistanis, the Brits, the Americans, the other non Afghans? Western troops out there are doing the bidding of the UN. When you join up you sign up for more than just defending your country.

What about the majority of the Afghans who want rid of the minority Taliban? What about AQ in Pakistan? Who are they defending against? OBL was not defending his country when he decided to attack the US.

AQ and the Taliban stop waging terror and the "aggressors" leave. Problem solved.

Zeuzzz
14th October 2009, 08:24 AM
Galloway is a proven liar, he is not a truth teller. He is only a hero to those who hate the West.


The senate just forget to convict him of anything then, after he made his lengthy testimony?

Or maybe .... what he said was the truth so they had no case?

WildCat
14th October 2009, 08:53 AM
The senate just forget to convict him of anything then, after he made his lengthy testimony?

Or maybe .... what he said was the truth so they had no case?
Uh, what? :confused:

funk de fino
14th October 2009, 09:35 AM
The senate just forget to convict him of anything then, after he made his lengthy testimony?

Or maybe .... what he said was the truth so they had no case?

I dont care what the senate did or did not do. I am from the UK. He has been shown to be a proven liar. Just because he flummoxes some US senators does not mean he is a hero or truth teller. There are plenty of examples of him lying. Especially about what he said to Saddam Hussein.

This is all you have, ignore the evidence he is a habitual liar and focus on one thing where it seems he did not lie.

Truly pathetic.

Pardalis
14th October 2009, 09:55 AM
And I agree with Galloway on this wholeheartedly. Any 'Western' Troops out there are doing nothing to defend their country and are merely serving a selfish aggressor, while the Afghans are defending their country

And now the cat is out of the bag, TFT clearly now admits being on the side of Islamic autocrats. The ones who blow up bombs on crowded streets and kill little girls for going to school have not the Afghans' interest in mind.

http://www.hrw.org/en/node/79295
Insurgent groups have been responsible for approximately two-thirds of civilian deaths. In the first seven months of 2008, the UN estimates that improvised explosive devices and suicide attacks killed almost 500 civilians. Antigovernment forces routinely violate the laws of war by launching attacks from civilian areas or retreating to such areas, knowingly drawing return fire.

The targeting of individuals associated with the government is also on the rise, from school teachers to human rights defenders, with the United Nations recording over a hundred assassinations in 2008. The Taliban claimed responsibility for the September killing of Afghanistan’s highest-ranking female police officer, Lieutenant-Colonel Malalai Kakar.

[...]

As part of their campaign of terrorizing the civilian population, the Taliban and other insurgent groups continue to target schools, and in particular girls’ schools. According to the Ministry of Education, over one hundred schools were attacked between March and October 2008, with the Afghanistan NGO Security Office recording more than 30 teachers and students killed in the first 10 months of 2008.
Is that a way to fight for one's country? Who exactly are the aggressors here?

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,627004,00.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6744931.stm

... yes, killing schoolgirls is the right way to fight for your country right, TFT?

And are aid workers "aggressors", TFT?

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/216017.html

Zeuzzz
14th October 2009, 06:12 PM
He has been shown to be a proven liar.


While under Oath? Thats a very serious accusation.

Zeuzzz
14th October 2009, 06:15 PM
Well done richardm, actually adding information about GG of this page of the thread. And yes, it was all legal.

As for all the others irrelivant angry banters, is it proving hard to come up with direct evidence of why you think Galloway is so bad?

Zeuzzz
14th October 2009, 06:21 PM
I am from the UK.


This would explain it; Do you read the Times, The Sun, the News of the World, or the Daily Mail by any chance? Or was it the Daily Telegraph which was the subject of libel action at the hight court won by Galloway many years ago?

Come up with a reason, and not emotive slurs and maybe we can progress.

Marc39
14th October 2009, 06:39 PM
Well done richardm, actually adding information about GG of this page of the thread. And yes, it was all legal.

As for all the others irrelivant angry banters, is it proving hard to come up with direct evidence of why you think Galloway is so bad?

Providing moral support to a terrorist organization in Hamas would be high on the list of repugnant activities.

And, if he raised money for Hamas with his Viva Palestina, as evidence appears to demonstrate, he's in violation of the International Convention for the Suppression of the Financing of Terrorism, among other anti-terror regulations.

Zeuzzz
14th October 2009, 07:38 PM
Providing moral support to a terrorist organization in Hamas would be high on the list of repugnant activities.


I dont think that he (along with most people) consider Hamas a terrorist organisation. Rather Israel a terrorist state. And he only offers the people there support in times of war and humanitarian crisis, as anyone with morals should do, surely?

And, if he raised money for Hamas with his Viva Palestina, as evidence appears to demonstrate, he's in violation of the International Convention for the Suppression of the Financing of Terrorism, among other anti-terror regulations.


Is Tony Benn also in "violation of the International Convention for the Suppression of the Financing of Terrorism" for him advertising the GAZA appeal number on the BBC?

1grdHjNh83c

And presumably all the people that donted money?

Could you equally consider the people who fund Israeli actions to be in "violation of the International Convention for the Suppression of the Financing of Terrorism" if they are considered the "terrorist" side of the two?

/de-ja-vu 3 with this post.

Marc39
14th October 2009, 07:48 PM
I dont think that he (along with most people) consider Hamas a terrorist organisation.

Morally bankrupt and ignorant people wouldn't.

However, a cursory review of Hamas's charter exhorting the annihilation of Israel and the murder of Jews, and, Palestinian leaders and clerics articulating same demonstrates terroristic motives. I recommend you familiarize yourself with it. It's readily available.

Rather Israel a terrorist state. And he only offers the people there support in times of war and humanitarian crisis, as anyone with morals should do, surely?

Israel exercising its inherent right to self-defense in response to Arab aggression shouldn't be confused with terrorism. I'm confident even you can grasp this concept.

Could you equally consider the people who fund Israeli actions to be in "violation of the International Convention for the Suppression of the Financing of Terrorism" if they are considered the "terrorist" side of the two?

/de-ja-vu 3 with this post.

Ah, you're betraying my confidence that even you could assimmilate the elementary concept of Israel defending itself against Muslim terrorism.

I'm so jaded.

Zeuzzz
14th October 2009, 07:56 PM
Morally bankrupt and ignorant people wouldn't.

However, a cursory review of Hamas's charter exhorting the annihilation of Israel and the murder of Jews, and, Palestinian leaders and clerics articulating same constitutes terrorism.


Evidence? The last charter I saw had a two state solution. And no anti-semitism, only anti-zionism.

Israel exercising its inherent right to self-defense in response to Arab aggression shouldn't be confused with terrorism. I'm confident even you can grasp this concept.


In seven years 8 Israelis were killed by rockets, in that same time 5000 Palestinians were killed.

Ulp8XEPN_B0

Not what I would call self defense.

Ah, you're betraying my confidence that even you could assimmilate the elementary concept of Israel defending itself against Muslim terrorism.


Ah, you're betraying my confidence that even you could assimmilate the elementary concept of Palestine defending itself against Zionist terrorism and ethnic cleansing.

WildCat
14th October 2009, 08:03 PM
In seven years 8 Israelis were killed by rockets, in that same time 5000 Palestinians were killed.
By that logic the US wasn't defending itself in WWII, since many more Japanese were killed than Americans.

But carry on with your delusions that Hamas is not a terrorist group fighting for a theocratic thugocracy but rather a peace-loving band of freedon fighters.

eta: btw , still waiting for you to explain your bizarre post about Galloway being tried in the US Senate...

Zeuzzz
14th October 2009, 08:05 PM
Hamas is not a terrorist group fighting for a theocratic thugocracy but rather a peace-loving band of freedon fighters


Never though I'd hear you say that :eek:

sigh.

Evidence?

Marc39
14th October 2009, 08:11 PM
In seven years 8 Israelis were killed by rockets, in that same time 5000 Palestinians were killed.

In the four year al-Aqsa intifada, 1,000 Israelis were killed, so, your figures are off.

Palestinians were killed in defensive Israeli military operations, though, your figures are highly suspect given your lack of knowledge, in general. Israelis were killed in offensive Hamas attacks.

Try to wrap your mind around the distinction.

Sporanox
14th October 2009, 08:18 PM
Never though I'd hear you say that :eek:

sigh.

Evidence?

Ever heard of what Hamas does to their political opponents? Have you seen Farfour? Actually, a better example might be the jihadist bumblebee.

Marc39
14th October 2009, 08:30 PM
Have you seen Farfour? Actually, a better example might be the jihadist bumblebee.

They can be seen daily on the Suicide Channel for kids in Gaza.

Zeuzzz
14th October 2009, 08:47 PM
As Galloway says, opress, slaughter, invade occupy and ethnically cleanse a nation, illegally, for decades, based on a racist ideology, and would you not expect some hostility in return?

Pardalis
14th October 2009, 08:48 PM
As Galloway says, opress, slaughter, invade occupy and ethnically cleanse a nation, illegally, for decades, based on a racist ideology, and would you not expect some hostility in return?

You're talking about Jordan?

Zeuzzz
14th October 2009, 08:50 PM
No Israel. Check their record.

Pardalis
14th October 2009, 08:55 PM
No Israel. Check their record.

Do you know the "record" of Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and Jordan, and their treatment of Palestinians, or did you only read about Israel?

Zeuzzz
14th October 2009, 08:58 PM
Watch this heated live exchange between GG and SKY news and critique it.

249JaIaubVw

To quote :

Twenty-four years ago, on the day my daughter was born and I have just celebrated her 24th birthday, I had to dash at the maternity to see giving birth, from a mass demonstration in London against the Israeli invasion and occupation of Lebanon. Israel has been invading and occupying Lebanon all of my 24 years of my daughter's life. The Hezbollah are a prt of the Lebanese Resistance who are trying to drive, having successfully driven most Israelis from their land in 2000. Israel from the rest of their land and to get back those thousands Lebanese prisoners who are kidnapped by Israel under the term of their illegal occupation of Lebanon. It's Israel that is invading Lebanon! It's Israel that is attacking Lebanon, not Lebanon that's attacking Israel! You've just been carrying a report "Ten Israeli Soldiers on the border getting ready to invade Lebanon, and you ask us to mourn that operation as if there were some kind of war crime! Israel is invading Lebanon and has killed 30 times more Lebanese civilians than have died in Israel. So, it's you who should be justifying the evident bias, which is written on every line of your face and is in every nuance of your voice and is loaded in every question that you ask.

Galloway: Are we going to shout upon each other? Anna! One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. You are totally wrong in saying that in most people's eyes Hezbollah are terrorists. In most people's eyes, Israel is a terrorist state! The fact that you cannot comprehend that fact that leads to the bias, which runs through all your reporting, and every question you've been asking me in that interview.

You don't give a damn! You don't even know about the Palestinian families! You don't even know that they exist! Tell me the name of one member of the seven members of the same family swatted on the beach in Gaza by an Israeli warship! You don't even know their name, but you know the name of every Israeli soldier who've been taken prisoner in this conflict because you believe whether you know it or not that Israeli blood is more valuable than that the blood of Lebanese or Palestinian! That's the truth! And the discerning of your viewers already know it!


Well said Mr Galloway.

Zeuzzz
14th October 2009, 09:00 PM
Do you know the "record" of Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and Jordan, and their treatment of Palestinians, or did you only read about Israel?

I'm sure they were bad too, but try to stay on topic of points relevant to Mr Galloway and his views or I will have to start reporting off topic posts.

Pardalis
14th October 2009, 09:09 PM
I'm sure they were bad too, but try to stay on topic of points relevant to Mr Galloway and his views or I will have to start reporting off topic posts.

Those facts are embarassing for you, I know. It didn't look like you were evading the question at all there... Very subtle.

Marc39
14th October 2009, 09:12 PM
No Israel. Check their record.

No, Jordan. King Hussein slaughtered thousands of Palestinians in what is known as Black September.

You and Galloway need to check the record, known as history.

In 1948, Jordan ethnically cleansed Jews out of Jerusalem, destroying dozens of synagogues.

As for occupation, that would be King Abdullah, also of Jordan, whose Hashemite family from Saudi Arabia was gifted the land, where Palestinians predominate. Now, Abdullah is stripping Pals of their citizenship.

Jordan also occupied the West Bank from '48 to '67, denying Pals statehood.

Egypt occupied Gaza, too, during the same time.

As far as ethnic cleansing, that would be Kuwait, who expelled 300,000 Pals after the Gulf War.

In 1948, 900,000 Jews were ethnically cleansed out of their Arab homes.

Then, there is Lebanon, which maintains much of their Palestinian population in ghettos, denying them citizenship, healthcare and employment.

Fatah and Hamas charters today call for the ethnic cleansing of Jews.

Just a snippet of Arab humanity toward their own brethren and Jews.

I must say, after seeing the vacuity of your posts, it's obvious that being well-informed is not a prerequisite for membership in the Galloway Fan Club. Not surprising, given its leader.

Tin Foil Timothy
14th October 2009, 09:58 PM
It's clear that this forum is microcosm of Zionist supporters that will never accept someone like George Galloway telling the truth about world issues. That's fine, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, even those who think the world is flat and even those who deny the racist Israeli atrocities.

And whatever your political view it would be folly to deny Galloway the recognition of being a superb orator and having the balls to speak his mind against the tide of Zionist forces. if he were to join this forum he would demolish each and everyone here. You cannot even compete in the slightest!!!

Zeuzzz
14th October 2009, 10:06 PM
if he were to join this forum he would demolish each and everyone here.


Now THAT would be a great event in the forums history :D He would totally run everyone arguing against him into the ground with his vast politicial unbiased knowledge.

Zeuzzz
14th October 2009, 10:12 PM
No, Jordan. King Hussein slaughtered thousands of Palestinians in what is known as Black September.

You and Galloway need to check the record, known as history.

In 1948, Jordan ethnically cleansed Jews out of Jerusalem, destroying dozens of synagogues.

As for occupation, that would be King Abdullah, also of Jordan, whose Hashemite family from Saudi Arabia was gifted the land, where Palestinians predominate. Now, Abdullah is stripping Pals of their citizenship.

Jordan also occupied the West Bank from '48 to '67, denying Pals statehood.

Egypt occupied Gaza, too, during the same time.

As far as ethnic cleansing, that would be Kuwait, who expelled 300,000 Pals after the Gulf War.

In 1948, 900,000 Jews were ethnically cleansed out of their Arab homes.

Then, there is Lebanon, which maintains much of their Palestinian population in ghettos, denying them citizenship, healthcare and employment.

Fatah and Hamas charters today call for the ethnic cleansing of Jews.

Just a snippet of Arab humanity toward their own brethren and Jews.

I must say, after seeing the vacuity of your posts, it's obvious that being well-informed is not a prerequisite for membership in the Galloway Fan Club. Not surprising, given its leader.


So your responce to me stating that there is ethnic cleansing happening is just to rail off another load of inhumain dictators and their actions, as if they are okay? George would condem them. As he does nearly all middle east dictators (especially the ones put there and supported by the West like the Saudis, Pakistan, Egypt, etc).

None of what you just said are happening today and are ongoing.

Tin Foil Timothy
14th October 2009, 10:17 PM
Now THAT would be a great event in the forums history :D He would totally run everyone arguing against him into the ground with his vast politicial unbiased knowledge.

I'd sit back and LMFAO. All the usual tactics of accusing people of racism, complete denial of factual historical events and general fantasy land propaganda would simply crumble.

Zeuzzz
14th October 2009, 11:00 PM
GEORGE GALLOWAY WARNS CANADA

I-WxdC77qWs

The JDL (Jewish Defense League) responsible for his ban is regarded by the FBI as thugs not allowed in the USA. And JDL's views do not represent the vast majority of the jewish people. As george re-clara-iterates again, and again, and again. Most succinctly.

lionking
14th October 2009, 11:11 PM
Now THAT would be a great event in the forums history :D He would totally run everyone arguing against him into the ground with his vast politicial unbiased knowledge.

Now I know this is a parody thread. Well done Zeuzzz. You had us going for a while.

Zeuzzz
14th October 2009, 11:14 PM
"what else can you do? You have to deal with the authorities that are ellected and that govern the place. That happens to be Hamas. I wouldn't have voted for them, but the palestinian people did."

George Galloway, interviewed on canadas The Hour (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7k2-VwcLuCw)

Zeuzzz
14th October 2009, 11:16 PM
Now I know this is a parody thread. Well done Zeuzzz. You had us going for a while.


Unfortunately not a SOHF, More a SORF.

Zeuzzz
15th October 2009, 02:48 AM
For those a bit slow with the acronyms;

Sense of humour failure
Sense of reality failure

funk de fino
15th October 2009, 02:54 AM
While under Oath? Thats a very serious accusation.

You do not need to be under oath to be a proven liar. Try again.

If you watch a video of someone saying something. Then a video of them denying they said it. They are a proven liar in my book.

He is anti war and for peace yet he extolls the people of Egypt to rise up against Mubarak and demolish him. He asks the arabs to rise up and help the Iraqis fight against the British. He supports the people who are killing more in Iraq than any troops, some of whom are not even Iraqis. Even the baathist iraqis have turned against the outsiders from AQ in some places.

He visited a country around a hundred times and schmoozed with the administration after they caused war by invading their neighbour, massacred thousands of kurds, massacred thousands of marsh arabs and fired missiles at Israel. This was despite his previous opposition to Saddam and his support for sanctions previous to the war. Very friendly with Mr Tariq Aziz.

funk de fino
15th October 2009, 02:56 AM
This would explain it; Do you read the Times, The Sun, the News of the World, or the Daily Mail by any chance? Or was it the Daily Telegraph which was the subject of libel action at the hight court won by Galloway many years ago?

Come up with a reason, and not emotive slurs and maybe we can progress.

None of them, try again. I am a fellow countryman of Galloway, born in the same city, and eternally embarrassed at his antics.

I have given you reasons, you are ignoring them. That is very dishonest.

funk de fino
15th October 2009, 02:58 AM
It's clear that this forum is microcosm of Zionist supporters that will never accept someone like George Galloway telling the truth about world issues. That's fine, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, even those who think the world is flat and even those who deny the racist Israeli atrocities.

And whatever your political view it would be folly to deny Galloway the recognition of being a superb orator and having the balls to speak his mind against the tide of Zionist forces. if he were to join this forum he would demolish each and everyone here. You cannot even compete in the slightest!!!


I am no biased Zionist supporter, yet I see him for what he is. I should be supporting him, yet like many on the left in my country I see him for the hypocritic, two faced, lying POS he really is. You know nothing about him.

funk de fino
15th October 2009, 03:02 AM
Watch this heated live exchange between GG and SKY news and critique it.

Yet, many have praised his oratory skills and superior debating techniques then they then link to him shouting down a news reporter and accusing her of Israeli bias.

That is an embarassing piece. I saw it live.

funk de fino
15th October 2009, 03:08 AM
I'd sit back and LMFAO. All the usual tactics of accusing people of racism, complete denial of factual historical events and general fantasy land propaganda would simply crumble.

You done anything yet except derail threads in here. Is this all you can do with all that rage? You dont really care do you? Is it just a fashionable phase you are going through?

If I met Mr Galloway (which I have) and said to him "George, I saw you on TV shaking hands with and praising Saddam Hussein and saying that you and everyone you spoke to were behind him and support him" then he says " No, you are lying I never said that"

What does that say about Mr Galloway? It's there for all to see. Yet he denies it. What does that make my fellow Dundonian?

Zeuzzz
15th October 2009, 03:17 AM
So thats what I comes down to again? The two times he met sadam hussein like Donald Rumsfeld did? Do you want me to copy and paste the reasons for that again, or will you just ignore them again? Infact, I think I will.

richardm
15th October 2009, 03:21 AM
Now THAT would be a great event in the forums history :D He would totally run everyone arguing against him into the ground with his vast politicial unbiased knowledge.

Either that or he'd be banned in a week because he's a hectoring bully.

funk de fino
15th October 2009, 03:57 AM
So thats what I comes down to again? The two times he met sadam hussein like Donald Rumsfeld did? Do you want me to copy and paste the reasons for that again, or will you just ignore them again? Infact, I think I will.

No, you lie again. Do not bring the two wrongs make a right argument. I do not care what Rumsfeld did. I am not from the US. Try again, a little harder this time.

How many times did Galloway go to Iraq in those years and who did he stay with a meet and socialize with? Was it 10, or 20, or 50 or a 100?

If you have a video of someone saying something and then they deny they said it. What does that mean?

Why dont you copy and paste an exact transcript of the video when he meets saddam and explain what it means word for word? Why did you try and post earlier in this thread that it was a translation problem?

What do you call a man who turns on a person and starts to make fun of his alcoholism? Goads and taunts them?

Marc39
15th October 2009, 04:20 AM
So your responce to me stating that there is ethnic cleansing happening is just to rail off another load of inhumain dictators and their actions, as if they are okay? George would condem them. As he does nearly all middle east dictators (especially the ones put there and supported by the West like the Saudis, Pakistan, Egypt, etc).

None of what you just said are happening today and are ongoing.

The only ethnic cleansing in the Middle East has been committed by Arabs.

A point so lost on you.

Marc39
15th October 2009, 04:28 AM
GEORGE GALLOWAY WARNS CANADA

I-WxdC77qWs

The JDL (Jewish Defense League) responsible for his ban is regarded by the FBI as thugs not allowed in the USA. And JDL's views do not represent the vast majority of the jewish people. As george re-clara-iterates again, and again, and again. Most succinctly.

The JDL is a marginal group. Hamas is a government, albeit, a terrorist government.

Thunder
15th October 2009, 06:38 AM
The only ethnic cleansing in the Middle East has been committed by Arabs.

A point so lost on you.

Israel ethnically cleansed a good 750,000 Arabs during the 1948 war. They then cleansed another 200,000 out of the West Bank during the 1967 war.

WildCat
15th October 2009, 06:52 AM
Israel ethnically cleansed a good 750,000 Arabs during the 1948 war. They then cleansed another 200,000 out of the West Bank during the 1967 war.
Evidence this happened by Israeli design?

Stout
15th October 2009, 06:54 AM
Evidence? The last charter I saw had a two state solution. And no anti-semitism, only anti-zionism.
.

That's an interesting tack. The usual idea is to say something like "they don't mean that anymore" or something like that to downplay this article in Hamas's charter, but if you feel you can defend that view..then have at 'er.

quixotecoyote
15th October 2009, 06:56 AM
Israel ethnically cleansed a good 750,000 Arabs during the 1948 war. They then cleansed another 200,000 out of the West Bank during the 1967 war.

Congratulations on helping to make the term 'ethnic cleansing' useless.

WildCat
15th October 2009, 06:58 AM
That's an interesting tack. The usual idea is to say something like "they don't mean that anymore" or something like that to downplay this article in Hamas's charter, but if you feel you can defend that view..then have at 'er.
Zeuzzzz is simply lying. There is nothing in the charter of Hamas supporting a 2-state solution.

WildCat
15th October 2009, 06:59 AM
Congratulations on helping to make the term 'ethnic cleansing' useless.
Yep. By parky's definition the US ethnically cleansed Okinawa in WWII.

Marc39
15th October 2009, 07:02 AM
Evidence this happened by Israeli design?

Is that guy still peddling his fictional account of history? Another member of the Galloway Fan Club requiring no actual knowledge of history.

Please.

Were 700,000 Arabs ethnically cleansed from Palestine by Jews, there would be many news accounts of this.

Where is the film footage?

Where are the newspaper accounts?

They do not exist because...no such thing occurred.

Historians are a welcome antidote to chat room fiction writers...

Benny Morris, author of the definitive book on the '48 War, "1948", states unequivocally that there was no Jewish ethnic cleansing of Arabs and, in fact their displacement was their own doing, ...

The Palestinian Arabs were not responsible in some bizarre way for what befell them in 1948. Their responsibility was very direct and simple.

In defiance of the will of the international community, as embodied in the UN General Assembly Resolution of November 29th, 1947 (No. 181), they launched hostilities against the Jewish community in Palestine in the hope of aborting the emergence of the Jewish state and perhaps destroying that community. But they lost; and one of the results was the displacement of 700,000 of them from their homes.

...on the local level, in dozens of localities around Palestine, Arab leaders advised or ordered the evacuation of women and children or whole communities, as occurred in Haifa in late April, 1948. And Haifa's Jewish mayor, Shabtai Levy, did, on April 22nd, plead with them to stay, to no avail.

Most of Palestine's 700,000 "refugees" fled their homes because of the flail of war (and in the expectation that they would shortly return to their homes on the backs of victorious Arab invaders).

The displacement of the 700,000 Arabs who became "refugees" - and I put the term in inverted commas, as two-thirds of them were displaced from one part of Palestine to another and not from their country (which is the usual definition of a refugee) - was not a racist crime but the result of a national conflict and a war, with religious overtones, from the Muslim perspective, launched by the Arabs themselves.

There was no Zionist "plan" or blanket policy of evicting the Arab population, or of "ethnic cleansing".

Stout
15th October 2009, 07:12 AM
I'm sure they were bad too, but try to stay on topic of points relevant to Mr Galloway and his views or I will have to start reporting off topic posts.

No need to throw your toys out of the pram here Zeuzzz. You started this thread asking for opinions on why (Opinions?) people might disagree with your assessment of Galloway and that's exactly what your getting.

All this info about the fate of Palestinians in other. Arab, countries just shows as proof that Galloway is more concerned with being anti-Israel than pro "Palestinian"

Look at this quote that you posted in post #426.

In most people's eyes, Israel is a terrorist state! The fact that you cannot comprehend that fact that leads to the bias, which runs through all your reporting, and every question you've been asking me in that interview.

Most people's eyes ??? What "most people" ? The same most people who complain about bias in the MSM when it comes to Israel/Palestine coverage ? The same most people who the blog/alternative media informed left consider themselves vastly more knowledgeable than ?

The sheeple ?

Marc39
15th October 2009, 07:34 AM
Originally Posted by Zeuzzz
Evidence? The last charter I saw had a two state solution. And no anti-semitism, only anti-zionism.

The "last" Hamas charter read must have been read while sleeping.

Hamas is Arabic for Islamic Resistance Movement. Whom, do you suppose, they were formed to resist? (Much-needed hint: Israel and Jews)

Two-state solution?...

Hamas Covenant
Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know.

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:

"The people of Syria are Allah's lash in His land. He wreaks His vengeance through them against whomsoever He wishes among His slaves It is unthinkable that those who are double-faced among them should prosper over the faithful. They will certainly die out of grief and desperation.

Zeuzzz
15th October 2009, 12:22 PM
The "last" Hamas charter read must have been read while sleeping.

Hamas is Arabic for Islamic Resistance Movement. Whom, do you suppose, they were formed to resist? (Much-needed hint: Israel and Jews)


You couldn't make a much more blatent attempt to link political views against Zionism with and entire religion if you tried! What a disgrace. You just added the 'jew' bit to make it sound like its an anti-semitic view.

And I have no idea what that would have to do with galloway, who no-one has ONCE proved in this thread is in the SLIGHTEST bit anti-semitic.

Marc39
15th October 2009, 12:51 PM
You couldn't make a much more blatent attempt to link political views against Zionism with and entire religion if you tried! What a disgrace. You just added the 'jew' bit to make it sound like its an anti-semitic view.

Hamas's Charter specifically exhorts that Jews in Palestine/Israel be eliminated, further showcasing the level of ignorance that exists among Galloway's Merry Band of Anti-Semites...

Hamas Covenant Of Sociopaths...

This Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS), clarifies its picture, reveals its identity, outlines its stand, explains its aims, speaks about its hopes, and calls for its support, adoption and joining its ranks. Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised.

The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine, for under the wing of Islam followers of all religions can coexist in security and safety where their lives, possessions and rights are concerned. In the absence of Islam, strife will be rife, oppression spreads, evil prevails and schisms and wars will break out.

Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.

Stout
15th October 2009, 12:57 PM
Article 7

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

Link (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp)

Zeuzzz
15th October 2009, 01:23 PM
Yep. So? Please stay on topic.

And thats partially why Galloway does not support Hamas :D

"what else can you do? You have to deal with the authorities that are ellected and that govern the place. That happens to be Hamas. I wouldn't have voted for them, but the palestinian people did."

George Galloway, interviewed on canadas The Hour (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7k2-VwcLuCw)


I'll even add bold this time to try to get people to make the distinction I've kept trying to (obviously unsucessfully)

He finds many of their ideas abhorent. But he sticks up for the palestinian people who happen to have elected a rather precarious (to say the least) govenment, Hamas. No matter who the govenment, they have a right to the land that Israel illegally occupies. So no matter who is in charge has a right to the land by international law, whether its the peoples front of judea or the jedean peoples front.

He does repute the palestinians image as a terrorist state, by comparing casualities and deaths, and incentives, and many other things, and he does support them in conflicts for humanitarian reasons (as they always have the most casualties) but he hates Hamas.

Marc39
15th October 2009, 01:42 PM
Galloway does not support Hamas

Galloway, who embraces Ismail Haniyeh, a Hamas leader, would disgree...

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/2060.htm

Thunder
15th October 2009, 01:44 PM
Galloway, who embraces Ismail Haniyeh, a Hamas leader, would disgree...

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/2060.htm

MEMRI is pure Mossad propaganda.

IDB87
15th October 2009, 02:06 PM
MEMRI is pure Mossad propaganda.

Is this a joke? It was a video of Galloway speaking - how does that equate to Mossad propaganda? Do you believe Mossad cut that video to make the things Galloway was saying seem anti-Israeli?

Wut?

Zeuzzz
15th October 2009, 02:08 PM
whooooooooooops

Undesired Walrus
15th October 2009, 02:09 PM
PS: He's not on their side anyway, he just thinks that afghanis have a right to defend their country aggainst aggressors. And wants the troops back as soon as possible to save lives.

So why did he support the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan?

WildCat
15th October 2009, 02:13 PM
MEMRI is pure Mossad propaganda.
Those clever Mossad agents, tricking Palestinians to air kiddie TV shows which train 6 year olds to be jihadists and suicide bombers! Is there anything they can't do? :rolleyes:

WildCat
15th October 2009, 02:18 PM
And thats partially why Galloway does not support Hamas
So who is this guy?

5dYDtAdNCDo

And then, true to form, Galloway lies through his teeth, denying he said what he is clearly saying in the first video:

LsvCh6sDk0g

There it is, objective proof that Galloway is a liar.

And subjective proof that he is a scumbag.

Stout
15th October 2009, 03:19 PM
Yep. So?.

So ? You're OK with Hamas wanting to kill Jews then ?

Why didn't he just donate his goods and cash to the UN and let them distribute it ? It's not like Hamas would favour who got the aid now would they ?

Maybe if Galloway had read the news before his departure for Gaza in Feb 2009 he might have read the following.


The Hamas Social Affairs Minister in Gaza, Ahmed al-Kurd, denied that members of the Islamist movement had removed aid from a UN building.

However, he said his ministry was in dispute with the UN relief agency about how aid should be distributed.

He accused the UN of giving aid to local groups with ties to Hamas opponents.

Or..from the same article.

However, the UN, along with most of the Western world, does not deal directly with Hamas, which controls the Gaza Strip.

Source (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7869704.stm)

Nope, Galloway just charged ahead knowing he rather fund a terrorist organisation because it would get him more spotlight time than just handing the goods and cash over to the UN, then spun it as a freedom of speech issue when he was banned from Canada for doing just that

Zeuzzz
15th October 2009, 04:35 PM
Is this a joke? It was a video of Galloway speaking - how does that equate to Mossad propaganda? Do you believe Mossad cut that video to make the things Galloway was saying seem anti-Israeli?

Wut?


It was Anti-Israeli, very clearly. They would not need to cut anything to make it look like this. This was at a time when the Gaza appeal emergency helpline had been open for a while and George had come to give aid to the suffering palestinians. Giving his unrivalled oratory skills, he took the oppertunity to show that there is worldwide support for palestinians, that there is still hope they will survive as a nation and will not be wiped off the map.

Marc39
15th October 2009, 04:39 PM
So who is this guy?

5dYDtAdNCDo

And then, true to form, Galloway lies through his teeth, denying he said what he is clearly saying in the first video:

LsvCh6sDk0g

There it is, objective proof that Galloway is a liar.

And subjective proof that he is a scumbag.

Say no to Hamas
Say yes to Hummus

Zeuzzz
15th October 2009, 04:40 PM
So ? You're OK with Hamas wanting to kill Jews then ?


No of course not (if thats true) and george, as you well know, would despise this view, and would argue to the ground anyone who espoused it.

Why didn't he just donate his goods and cash to the UN and let them distribute it ?


The palestinians dont trust the UN, and they have good reason to. They side with Isreal far too often.

WildCat
15th October 2009, 04:57 PM
No of course not (if thats true) and george, as you well know, would despise this view, and would argue to the ground anyone who espoused it.
Not at all true. In fact, Georgie boy loves Hamas so much he chants "we are all hamas" at a pro-Hamas rally. See the video above.

The palestinians dont trust the UN, and they have good reason to. They side with Isreal far too often.
The Palestinains might find they will get much more support if they stop acting like spoiled children and start acting like a responsible nation.

Hint: responsible people don't elect internationally recognized terrorist groups into political power, and lob rockets at civilians.

dudalb
15th October 2009, 05:05 PM
So why did he support the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan?


Hey, this is the guy who said the day the Soviet Union collapssed was the saddest day in his life. What else can you expect but that George would support just about any Soviet action?

Marc39
15th October 2009, 05:06 PM
It was Anti-Israeli, very clearly. They would not need to cut anything to make it look like this. This was at a time when the Gaza appeal emergency helpline had been open for a while and George had come to give aid to the suffering palestinians. Giving his unrivalled oratory skills, he took the oppertunity to show that there is worldwide support for palestinians, that there is still hope they will survive as a nation and will not be wiped off the map.

Yet, not one word of criticism against Hamas for their human rights abuses of their own people...Galloway's beloved Palestinian People.

To wit...

Palestinian Center For Human Rights
Human Rights Violations In The Gaza Strip, 2009

For the past five weeks, the Palestinian Center For Human Rights has collected testimonies from victims and eyewitnesses regarding dozens of human rights violations perpetrated across the Gaza Strip by armed members of the Palestinian Security Services and unidentified gunmen. According to PCHR documentation, at least 32 Palestinians have been killed by members of the PSS during this reporting period. In addition, dozens of other people sustained injuries after being shot or severely beaten by unidentified gunmen who in some cases claimed to be members of the PSS.

The human rights violations perpetrated during this reporting period have included killings of fugitives, prisoners and detainees, injuries caused by severe physical violence, torture and misuse of weapons, the imposition of house arrest and other restrictions that have been imposed on civil society.

funk de fino
16th October 2009, 01:01 AM
No of course not (if thats true) and george, as you well know, would despise this view, and would argue to the ground anyone who espoused it.

The palestinians dont trust the UN, and they have good reason to. They side with Isreal far too often.


Post 468?

Tricky
16th October 2009, 06:43 AM
Derail about the UN and genocide sent to AAH. Nothing wrong with the topic, but those bickering posts are no way to start it. If you want to discuss those topics, start a thread or find one of the many that have already discussed it.

Please stop the bickering and stay on topic here too, okay?

Tin Foil Timothy
16th October 2009, 12:01 PM
You couldn't make a much more blatent attempt to link political views against Zionism with and entire religion if you tried! What a disgrace. You just added the 'jew' bit to make it sound like its an anti-semitic view.

I would double check any translations of the Hamas charter. Especially if it's published by right wing Zionists. They have a habit of carefully mistranslating on purpose to bring anti-semitism into it. The classic lie is Ahmadinejad's speech calling to 'remove the Zionist Regime', which was twisted into "Wipe Israel off the Map"


And I have no idea what that would have to do with galloway, who no-one has ONCE proved in this thread is in the SLIGHTEST bit anti-semitic.

There was a huge thread earlier this year trying to prove Alex Jones was anti-semitic. Even after probably nearly 30 pages no one could.

No one is going to prove George Galloway is anti-semitic. Because he isn't. But then anyone who criticizes Israel and the right wing Zionist Movement is always labeled as anti-Semitic by right wing Zionists.

Stay on topic. Further derails in any threads will result in sterner mod actions.

Marc39
16th October 2009, 12:07 PM
I would double check any translations of the Hamas charter. Especially if it's published by right wing Zionists.

The Hamas Charter I reference is from Yale Law School. Is Yale part of your international Zionist conspiracy?

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

funk de fino
16th October 2009, 12:11 PM
I would double check any translations of the Hamas charter. Especially if it's published by right wing Zionists. They have a habit of carefully mistranslating on purpose to bring anti-semitism into it. The classic lie is Ahmadinejad's speech calling to 'remove the Zionist Regime', which was twisted into "Wipe Israel off the Map"

Your Iranian hero came out as a holocaust denier again recently though eh?

There was a huge thread earlier this year trying to prove Alex Jones was anti-semitic. Even after probably nearly 30 pages no one could.

Thats a lie

No one is going to prove George Galloway is anti-semitic. Because he isn't. But then anyone who criticizes Israel and the right wing Zionist Movement is always labeled as anti-Semitic by right wing Zionists.

I'm not claiming he is anti semitic. I am saying he is a worthless lying POS.

WildCat
16th October 2009, 12:30 PM
I would double check any translations of the Hamas charter. Especially if it's published by right wing Zionists. They have a habit of carefully mistranslating on purpose to bring anti-semitism into it. The classic lie is Ahmadinejad's speech calling to 'remove the Zionist Regime', which was twisted into "Wipe Israel off the Map"
Too bad only one translator, an Iranian apologist, translated it that way. Iranians themselves seem quite happy with that translation, and Ahmadinejad never denied it AFAIK.

http://home.mindspring.com/~a.lo/20080310IranIsraelWiped01.jpg

http://home.mindspring.com/~a.lo/20080310IranIsraelWiped02.jpg

http://home.mindspring.com/~a.lo/zluhig.jpg

Apparently Iran is full of "right wing Zionist" translators. :rolleyes:

No one is going to prove George Galloway is anti-semitic. Because he isn't. But then anyone who criticizes Israel and the right wing Zionist Movement is always labeled as anti-Semitic by right wing Zionists.
No he's not anti-semitic, he merely rallies in solidarity with those who are...

Thunder
16th October 2009, 01:22 PM
Too bad only one translator, an Iranian apologist, translated it that way. Iranians themselves seem quite happy with that translation, and Ahmadinejad never denied it AFAIK.

http://home.mindspring.com/~a.lo/20080310IranIsraelWiped01.jpg (http://home.mindspring.com/%7Ea.lo/20080310IranIsraelWiped01.jpg)

http://home.mindspring.com/~a.lo/20080310IranIsraelWiped02.jpg (http://home.mindspring.com/%7Ea.lo/20080310IranIsraelWiped02.jpg)

http://home.mindspring.com/~a.lo/zluhig.jpg (http://home.mindspring.com/%7Ea.lo/zluhig.jpg)


I'm no fan of Iran, but I do question the validity of these posters. Some of them look waaay too clear to be photos of outdoor posters.

Tin Foil Timothy
16th October 2009, 01:26 PM
Too bad only one translator, an Iranian apologist, translated it that way. Iranians themselves seem quite happy with that translation, and Ahmadinejad never denied it AFAIK.

http://home.mindspring.com/~a.lo/20080310IranIsraelWiped01.jpg

http://home.mindspring.com/~a.lo/20080310IranIsraelWiped02.jpg

http://home.mindspring.com/~a.lo/zluhig.jpg

Apparently Iran is full of "right wing Zionist" translators. :rolleyes:


No he's not anti-semitic, he merely rallies in solidarity with those who are...

:dl:

What a load of photoshopped nonsense. Please don't patronize us with such rubbish. The last one is an especially amateurish attempt.

Thunder
16th October 2009, 01:32 PM
notice how the text of "Israel must be wiped off the map" in the 1st and 2nd poster are literally identical fonts.

fakes. total fakes.

WildCat
16th October 2009, 01:32 PM
I'm no fan of Iran, but I do question the validity of these posters. Some of them look waaay too clear to be photos of outdoor posters.
The first 2 photos are from an anti-Israel/pro-Palestinian rally in Tehran on March 9, 2008. The Tehran billboard photo originally appeared in the New York Times here: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/30/world/middleeast/30iran.html?_r=3&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Why don't you inform the NYT of your suspicions?

And note that Ahmadinejad has never disputed the translation.

Undesired Walrus
16th October 2009, 01:37 PM
notice how the text of "Israel must be wiped off the map" in the 1st and 2nd poster are literally identical fonts.

fakes. total fakes.

For someone who has spend a large amount of time in the conspiracy section, this is quite laughable.

Identical fonts aren't entirely a new breakthrough.

WildCat
16th October 2009, 01:41 PM
BTW, more pictures of the March 9, 2008 rally the first 2 pics were from can be found a bit more than halfway down this page: http://eye-on-the-world.blogspot.com/2008_03_01_archive.html

They are credited to Reuters photographer Morteza Nikoubazl and AFP photographer Atta Kenare, I'm sure parky and his buddy Tin Foil Timothy will be contacting them to verify... :rolleyes:


eta: direct link: http://eye-on-the-world.blogspot.com/2008/03/from-iran-with-love-students-agreed-to.html

Tin Foil Timothy
16th October 2009, 01:53 PM
The first 2 photos are from an anti-Israel/pro-Palestinian rally in Tehran on March 9, 2008. The Tehran billboard photo originally appeared in the New York Times here: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/30/world/middleeast/30iran.html?_r=3&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Why don't you inform the NYT of your suspicions?



:dl:

And now you're using the NYT, a pro-zionist murdoch piece of toilet paper, as a reliable source. That deserves another ...


:dl:

Hilarious. They are total fakes. Anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of graphic editing can see they are fakes.

And the mainstream media is known for using fake pictures. The BBC even got caught using a picture of a pro-Ahmadinejad rally in which they'd cropped off Ahmadinejad himself and published it on their website as an anti-Ahmadinejad proestors. Hilarious. They got caught and had to change the caption and make some whining excuse.

Oh before I compose myself ...

:dl:

Arcade22
16th October 2009, 01:56 PM
Anything that disproves you = faked Mossad propaganda? :con2:

Marc39
16th October 2009, 02:03 PM
And now you're using the NYT, a pro-zionist murdoch piece of toilet paper, as a reliable source. That deserves another ...

The NY Times is certainly not a pro-Zionist newspaper. Evidently, you are not a Times reader. The Times is consistently critical of Israel and its anti-Israel bias is well-documented.

Oh, and, by the way, you have more egg on your face as the Times is owned by the Sulzberger family, not Murdoch.

In fact, the Sulzbergers were so intent on the Times not being accused of being pro-Zionist, during the Holocaust, they placed the names of the dead Jews well inside the newspaper so as not to appear to be drawing attention to them.

Dude, you really desperately need to get your facts straight.

WildCat
16th October 2009, 02:03 PM
:dl:

And now you're using the NYT, a pro-zionist murdoch piece of toilet paper, as a reliable source. That deserves another ...


:dl:

Hilarious. They are total fakes. Anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of graphic editing can see they are fakes.

And the mainstream media is known for using fake pictures. The BBC even got caught using a picture of a pro-Ahmadinejad rally in which they'd cropped off Ahmadinejad himself and published it on their website as an anti-Ahmadinejad proestors. Hilarious. They got caught and had to change the caption and make some whining excuse.

Oh before I compose myself ...

:dl:
Quoted for posterity.

WildCat
16th October 2009, 02:21 PM
parky 76 and Tin Foil Timothy, to avoid further derailing this thread I created a thread for you to talk about the pro-Zionist media conspiracy to fake Iran photos: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=5212438#post5212438

Undesired Walrus
16th October 2009, 02:24 PM
I like how the BBC is consistently branded as being pro and anti every conceivable organisatination, ideology and nation on Earth. One day it is pro-Israeli, the next it is pro-Palestinian, and the following week it is anti-American or Pro-Bush.

Brilliant.

Marc39
16th October 2009, 02:33 PM
I like how the BBC is consistently branded as being pro and anti every conceivable organisatination, ideology and nation on Earth. One day it is pro-Israeli, the next it is pro-Palestinian, and the following week it is anti-American or Pro-Bush.

Brilliant.

I know of no rational person who accuses the BBC of being pro-Israel. It's anti-Israel bias is notorious.

WildCat
16th October 2009, 02:34 PM
I like how the BBC is consistently branded as being pro and anti every conceivable organisatination, ideology and nation on Earth. One day it is pro-Israeli, the next it is pro-Palestinian, and the following week it is anti-American or Pro-Bush.

Brilliant.
It's like super-nano-therm*te, it's whatever you want it to be!

funk de fino
16th October 2009, 02:51 PM
I know of no rational person who accuses the BBC of being pro-Israel. It's anti-Israel bias is notorious.

House!

Undesired Walrus
16th October 2009, 03:05 PM
I know of no rational person who accuses the BBC of being pro-Israel. It's anti-Israel bias is notorious.

See what I mean? The brilliance of the BBC, it can be whatever a partisan wants it be.

When it refused to play the BBC Gaza (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7848614.stm) appeal in order to stay neutral, the far left accused it of being a playground for the Israeli Government. When it got into Gaza, despite the Israeli wishes, it was called an anti-Israeli institution.

Zeuzzz
16th October 2009, 03:19 PM
Galloway. What a guy. :cool: Always speaking up for the people. The zionist propegandists in this thread are getting quite tiring.

NWO Sentryman
16th October 2009, 03:27 PM
Wipe off the map sounds like "we will bury you", and ahmadinejad does remind me a lot of khrushchev.

WildCat
16th October 2009, 03:38 PM
Wipe off the map sounds like "we will bury you", and ahmadinejad does remind me a lot of khrushchev.
Actually that quote isn't as sinister as it was made out to be. All it means is that the USSR will be around after the US is gone. "We will survive you" or "outlast you" would have been a better translation.

Of course, quite the opposite happened.