How do we stop them?

[Jontg]

I don't know if people are watching too much Fox News, or if McCain called up something he couldn't put on hold during the election, or if there's just something in the water, but it's becoming obvious that there are more crazies, militiamen, and conspiracy maniacs in my country than have ever existed in my lifetime. They're not a majority, not even a substantial minority--but they're loud and they have more power than we give them credit for. The American right that controlled this country only months ago is colluding with elements that it kicked out before my parents were born in a frantic scrabble for power. Seditious and secessionist ideas are being discussed in the halls of government and trumpeted across a propaganda network that four years ago labelled any and all dissent as treasonous. Maniacs from every part of the political spectrum are being enabled and empowered by a bitter, disenfranchised power bloc--all that these people need is a Glorious Leader figure to ignite the entire demented cocktail and tear my home and most of yours apart.
I see these people everywhere I go, hear them ranting on the airwaves and even on the street corners, and I honestly feel afraid. How do we stop them? What happens if we can't? What happens if the truth just isn't enough to halt this disease? We're all traitors in their eyes, and I've already had nutcases try to find where I live once. This feeling isn't like being a Truther, like pretending you're hunted and dangerous and walking around like you own the world--I genuinely feel scared, in a way that's completely alien to me. Am I going crazy myself? Or am I not the only one who feels like this?

[Thunder]

Um...I don't watch cable news. So I honestly never see these people.

[JoeyDonuts]

If you're worried about it, you can bet federal law enforcement is thinking about it.

I do not think that these fringe elements could convince enough people to line up a federal agent or armed servicemember of their own National Guard in the sights of a weapon and pull the trigger in the name of some kind of misguided revolution.

I'll agree that it's getting out of control and picking up a lot of steam. Or it could be that these fringe elements are gobbling up every bit of sensational press coverage they can get their hands on for their soapboxing and posturing. This could certainly make them appear larger than they are.

Most of all, they're disorganized. I don't think any of their "leaders" (Beck/Hannity/Limbaugh/local AM hosts) wants to be the guy to tell them to organize into armed groups and take violent action against the government. I think the rhetoric of these people could push already unstable and violent people over the edge into taking action independently.

Just my .02.

[Audible Click]

As someone who's been on this earth a fairly long time, all I can say is "This too shall pass."

[theprestige]

I don't know if people are watching too much Fox News, or if McCain called up something he couldn't put on hold during the election, or if there's just something in the water, but it's becoming obvious that there are more crazies, militiamen, and conspiracy maniacs in my country than have ever existed in my lifetime. They're not a majority, not even a substantial minority--but they're loud and they have more power than we give them credit for. The American right that controlled this country only months ago is colluding with elements that it kicked out before my parents were born in a frantic scrabble for power. Seditious and secessionist ideas are being discussed in the halls of government and trumpeted across a propaganda network that four years ago labelled any and all dissent as treasonous. Maniacs from every part of the political spectrum are being enabled and empowered by a bitter, disenfranchised power bloc--all that these people need is a Glorious Leader figure to ignite the entire demented cocktail and tear my home and most of yours apart.
I see these people everywhere I go, hear them ranting on the airwaves and even on the street corners, and I honestly feel afraid. How do we stop them? What happens if we can't? What happens if the truth just isn't enough to halt this disease? We're all traitors in their eyes, and I've already had nutcases try to find where I live once. This feeling isn't like being a Truther, like pretending you're hunted and dangerous and walking around like you own the world--I genuinely feel scared, in a way that's completely alien to me. Am I going crazy myself? Or am I not the only one who feels like this?
Wow.

I'm a registered Republican, a theist, and a hard-core conservative, and even I never see or hear these people.

The last group of people I saw on a streetcorner were a bunch of Iranians protesting the Iranian government. Before that, it was a group of union wives who spend their free time picketing whatever local business most recently contracted with non-union construction workers. Before that, it was an "impeach Bush" group that picketed local intersections every weekend, all the way into 2007. All this in San Diego, a pretty conservative enclave in liberal California.

[SkepticGuy]

Am I going crazy myself? Or am I not the only one who feels like this?

No, you're not crazy.

No, you're not the only one.

In fact, you've rather succinctly described a growing contemporary "conspiracy theory," proposed by many who focus on well-informed conjecture, rather than ... well... fiction.

We're witnessing what could be the crescendo of the lunatic orchestra of "political divide" that some feel is a rather grand-scale conspiracy... and perhaps one that has gone maddeningly out of control.

From a purely theoretical point of view, what better way can there be to control and manipulate a "free" society than to split them evenly along well-defined ideological lines, then fan passionate fires to ensure each side blames the other for all our problems?

No, you're not alone.

Yes, you're now a conspiracy theorist.

[JoeyDonuts]

Yes, you're now a conspiracy theorist.

Uh oh.

Better get the soap.

[Audible Click]

Or brain bleach.

[Horatius]

From a purely theoretical point of view, what better way can there be to control and manipulate a "free" society than to split them evenly along well-defined ideological lines, then fan passionate fires to ensure each side blames the other for all our problems?

No, you're not alone.

Yes, you're now a conspiracy theorist.


No, he's not (necessarily). It is possible to see a wave of people leading up to some sort of violent ideological clash, without believing that that clash has been engineered by some secret cabal out to "manipulate a "free" society". It's entirely possible that this whole situation has arisen out of honestly held, mutually exclusive beliefs held by various members of society.

[Jontg]

I honestly doubt that there's any real conspiracy behind it, SkepticGuy--yes, there are obviously disgruntled right-wingers at the core of the latest wave of nutballs, but it seems less like anything directed and more like somebody pointed it in a general direction, tried to direct it and failed. That's what I meant when I wondered if McCain called up something he couldn't put on hold: his campaign fanned the flames of a lot of the anti-Obama conspiracy theories, not understanding that the people he was agitating wouldn't concede as gracefully as he did. It's like a snowflake crystallizing out of a water droplet--an emergence on a scale that puts Project Chanology to shame. The Liberal Media myth that Fox has pushed every day for the last god knows how many years, the culture of anti-government conspiracism that the Bush administration cultivated over the last eight, and the desperate panic of America's paleoconservative throwbacks who woke up one day to find a progressive, black Social Democrat in the White House--they're all converging, dozens of mutual biases and cognitive short circuits all reinforcing each other and forming a construct of hate and insanity that makes my eyes hurt to visualize... nothing could control this, not the Freemasons and the Bilderbergers and the space lizards combined. The last time we had this sort of disgruntled, postwar-slump, liberals-running-an-angry-conservative-nation arrangement, one conspiracy theorist got his hands on the apparatus of government and used it to lash out at his personal bogeymen, the ones he knew were running the show from behind the scenes. He killed six million of them.
Oh, god, even I can tell I'm getting hysterical... rapid pulse, hands trembling, eyes tearing up, and I've never felt so glad to have a knife within arm's reach. It's unnerving to watch this happening to me from the inside, to know that there must be something irrational going on in my head, but to not see where I'm wrong... I am wrong, right?

[arthwollipot]

Wow.

I'm a registered Republican, a theist, and a hard-core conservative, and even I never see or hear these people.

The last group of people I saw on a streetcorner were a bunch of Iranians protesting the Iranian government. Before that, it was a group of union wives who spend their free time picketing whatever local business most recently contracted with non-union construction workers. Before that, it was an "impeach Bush" group that picketed local intersections every weekend, all the way into 2007. All this in San Diego, a pretty conservative enclave in liberal California.Wow.

I don't even live in your country and I've seen them. Teabaggers. People who scream and yell at town hall meetings. People who carry firearms to public rallies. Glenn Beck.

You seriously haven't encountered any of these people?

[JoeyDonuts]

You seriously haven't encountered any of these people?

To be fair, if the normal course of one's professional life and social outings don't take them anywhere near town hall meetings on health care or the "teabag" parties these folks hold on occasion, it's unlikely you'd run into a frothing Beck dittohead with the Obama "Joker" t-shirt walking around Walgreens with an assault rifle just "because he can."

FWIW, I'm pretty sure there's a consensus (amongst those of us who used to work with assault weaponry for a living) that walking around with an AR-15 like some kind of Billy Badass to prove a point is pretty damn stupid.

[SkepticGuy]

No, he's not (necessarily). It is possible to see a wave of people leading up to some sort of violent ideological clash, without believing that that clash has been engineered by some secret cabal out to "manipulate a "free" society".

It's also possible that there has been a "conspiracy" to promote the intensely divisive political rhetoric into the cultural meme, without the involvement of a "secret cabal." The motivations of which would be to ensure that the nation is focused on blame-game distractions such that important and real issues are largely ignored or forever stalled in a quagmire of bitter argument.

I've spent some time in Washington and have had conversations with both conservative and liberal lobbyists and congressional staffers. The conservatives I spoke with were very concerned with the "unofficial" strategic doctrine of "Obama must fail" to the point of feeling something nefarious is behind it.

In this case, for this particular "conspiracy," there's no cabal of old men in a smoke-filled room... just an average of 427 cash-saturated lobbyists per representative influencing policy while the public remains focused on blaming anyone not of their political ideology for all that is wrong.

[Jontg]

Isn't that always the unspoken goal when there's a Democrat in office? I mean, I can't be the only one who remembers what Clinton was doing when the Lewinsky scandal exploded in his face. This is the Republican SOP--**** everything up as much as possible and blame it on the *** Democrat.

Breach of Rule 10 removed

[Drudgewire]

This is the Republican SOP--**** everything up as much as possible and blame it on the ***Democrat.

Moderated content removed.


Wow.

[SkepticGuy]

Isn't that always the unspoken goal when there's a Democrat in office?

Since the time there were parties, the conflict and "long knives" were always evident in Washington. However, not until recently was there a "damn the country, HE must fail" type of attitude dominating partisan attacks. From a policy standpoint, Clinton experienced some degree of conservative acceptance... which is very unlike the current atmosphere which results in "conservatives" applauding such things as "Obama failing to bring the Olympics to Chicago."

And while the Clinton oval office blow jobs conspiracy was a rather intense time, it did not result in the culturally pervasive political rancor we're seeing today.

[Brainster]

It's called confirmation bias. When a made-for-TV movie was aired about the assassination of President Bush, liberals were amused that conservatives objected to its content. "It's just a movie," they would say. Imagine, however, if that movie were made today with the target President Obama. What would be the reaction of liberals? They'd be appalled and talk about how this would just encourage some right wing nut to go ahead and bump off the prez.

A poster in the politics section wrote this (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=5170270&postcount=28):

Reporter: "Why are you carrying that 'kill the prez' sign?"
Left wing nut: "Bush is using trumped up evidence to bomb the bejeezus out of a country and invade it!"

Reporter: "Why are you carrying that 'kill the prez' sign?"
Right wing nut: "Obama wants poor people to have doctors!"

My reply was simply to observe that what the poster was suggesting was that left-wingers wanted to assassinate President Bush for rational reasons, while the right-wingers want to assassinate President Obama for irrational reasons. Of course, the real point (that neither side could claim to be rational when calling for the assassination of the president) went right over his head.

[Jontg]

Since the time there were parties, the conflict and "long knives" were always evident in Washington. However, not until recently was there a "damn the country, HE must fail" type of attitude dominating partisan attacks. From a policy standpoint, Clinton experienced some degree of conservative acceptance... which is very unlike the current atmosphere which results in "conservatives" applauding such things as "Obama failing to bring the Olympics to Chicago."

And while the Clinton oval office blow jobs conspiracy was a rather intense time, it did not result in the culturally pervasive political rancor we're seeing today.
I suppose you're right on that count--at least from my POV. But then, I was ten at the time, and didn't even know what the internet was.
And Brainster, it is different. The change in this country goes far beyond who happens to be the disenfranchised political group--people are going insane. This isn't just kids pretending to be OMG REBELZZZ anymore.

[Newtons Bit]

Isn't that always the unspoken goal when there's a Democrat in office? I mean, I can't be the only one who remembers what Clinton was doing when the Lewinsky scandal exploded in his face. This is the Republican SOP--**** everything up as much as possible and blame it on the *** Democrat.

Moderated content removed.


I recall seeing democrats denouncing Strom Thurmond for having a child with a black servant when he was young. "It had to be rape", they cried, "no woman could possibly say no to such a powerful man. And yet these same people had no objections to President Clinton, the most powerful man on the planet, seducing an 22 year old girl. "It's just sex," they would say. "It's none of our business".

What you're seeing is the end result of politics taken to its inevitable conclusion: the affirmation of both parties that the other party is always evil regardless of what they do and our party is never evil regardless of what we do.

The best way to "stop them" as you ask in the title of this thread is with education. Real education that allows people to understand more than just the talking points of each party, as these will always state the other party is wrong, but the actual fundamental differences in ideology and their affect on peoples lives. And once you have this education, you will be able to understand the other sides arguments and be able to counter the truly loony ones that call for secession or forming militias.

[Jontg]

Why is it that the only people who ever say that are conservatives trying to accuse liberals of saying it? It's like when they call Obama the messiah--no liberal has ever said that in their life. Their conception of our worldview exists only in their own minds--they are projecting their own polarized view of the universe onto us.

[Brainster]

Why is it that the only people who ever say that are conservatives trying to accuse liberals of saying it? It's like when they call Obama the messiah--no liberal has ever said that in their life. Their conception of our worldview exists only in their own minds--they are projecting their own polarized view of the universe onto us.

Zr4VZ8xCzOg

[Jontg]

You affect a pretense of objectivity as a smokescreen for your partisan agenda. You JAQ off and respond to challenges with blustering evasion. And now you're actually taking MSM quotes out of context in an attempt to support your increasingly ridiculous statements.
You've cracked completely, Brainster. You have ceased to be a reasoning human being and become a vector for the very woo that this forum--this Foundation--exists to contain. Welcome to ignore.

[grandthefttoaster]

Jesus H. Christ, calm down.

[Jontg]

I'm perfectly calm. I am cool, calculating, and self-aware. This does not preclude me seeing Brainster degenerating before my eyes into something I never thought I'd see: a debunker turned conspiracy theorist.

[Brainster]

I have never claimed to be objective on the partisan divide; I'm a Republican and proud of it. I am appalled at some of the nonsense being spouted by other Republicans. I think the birthers are idiots, Glenn Beck is a populist moron and Michelle Bachmann is nuts.

But I am also amused at the hypocrites suddenly hyperventilating at the ugliness of the reaction to the president. It's like the last eight years of "Bushitler" never happened. Oh, I know, that was rational; but any opposition to Obama is irrational. Confirmation bias, pure and simple.

[Newtons Bit]

Why is it that the only people who ever say that are conservatives trying to accuse liberals of saying it? It's like when they call Obama the messiah--no liberal has ever said that in their life. Their conception of our worldview exists only in their own minds--they are projecting their own polarized view of the universe onto us.

I was making a point regarding Lewinsky as you brought it up, but you could easily infer that it was done by both parties: the same people who attacked Clinton for an extra-marital affair had very little to say negatively about a similar part of Thurmond's life. I was hoping you would make that little leap on your own.

Do you even understand why people on the right are so incredibly concerned by Obama's proposals?

[theprestige]

Wow.

I don't even live in your country and I've seen them. Teabaggers. People who scream and yell at town hall meetings. People who carry firearms to public rallies. Glenn Beck.

You seriously haven't encountered any of these people?
Seriously.

Why would I? Where would I?

Where do you encounter them? Not living in the USA, I imagine you're having to go pretty far out of your way.

[16.5]

I don't know if people are watching too much Fox News, or if McCain called up something he couldn't put on hold during the election, or if there's just something in the water, but it's becoming obvious that there are more crazies, militiamen, and conspiracy maniacs in my country than have ever existed in my lifetime. They're not a majority, not even a substantial minority--but they're loud and they have more power than we give them credit for. The American right that controlled this country only months ago is colluding with elements that it kicked out before my parents were born in a frantic scrabble for power. Seditious and secessionist ideas are being discussed in the halls of government and trumpeted across a propaganda network that four years ago labelled any and all dissent as treasonous. Maniacs from every part of the political spectrum are being enabled and empowered by a bitter, disenfranchised power bloc--all that these people need is a Glorious Leader figure to ignite the entire demented cocktail and tear my home and most of yours apart.
I see these people everywhere I go, hear them ranting on the airwaves and even on the street corners, and I honestly feel afraid. How do we stop them? What happens if we can't? What happens if the truth just isn't enough to halt this disease? We're all traitors in their eyes, and I've already had nutcases try to find where I live once. This feeling isn't like being a Truther, like pretending you're hunted and dangerous and walking around like you own the world--I genuinely feel scared, in a way that's completely alien to me. Am I going crazy myself? Or am I not the only one who feels like this?

Now how the hell did I wander into the Politics section... Wait, Conspiracy theories? What the deuce?

[horza66]

This is just politics, or rather business as usual. It'll die back after the emasculated healthcare bill is passed.

All the crazies you see are just one of the tactics deployed by the health care companies lobbying against the bill. Their profits were initially threatened by the provision of a public health plan that would have driven down prices. After funding the crazies to pressure congress members and deploying bribes *ahem* campaign contributions to the key players the main provisions were removed. The bill will pass, allowing the Democrats to claim victory. It will have zero effect on health care costs. The crazies will lose their expenses-paid trips to the rallies.

Historically none of this particularly new. Fox may whip up the crazies nowadays, but William Randolph Hearst probably had even more influence in his day than Murdoch does now.

[gtc]

Clinton was doing when the Lewinsky scandal exploded in his face.
I think you have that around the wrong way.

[Jontg]

All the crazies you see are just one of the tactics deployed by the health care companies lobbying against the bill. Their profits were initially threatened by the provision of a public health plan that would have driven down prices. After funding the crazies to pressure congress members and deploying bribes *ahem* campaign contributions to the key players the main provisions were removed. The bill will pass, allowing the Democrats to claim victory. It will have zero effect on health care costs. The crazies will lose their expenses-paid trips to the rallies.

Citations, please? Sounds less like a realistic explanation and more like a conspiracy theory in its own right.

[gtc]

Citations, please? Sounds less like a realistic explanation and more like a conspiracy theory in its own right.

I don't doubt that there are groups or companies or unions funding elements of the campaigns for and against reform. I don't think bussing people who want to protest/participate to and from venues or is illegal or that unusual. Suggesting that there is much more than that going on would be a conspiracy theory that required proof.

[jhunter1163]

I'm not sure if they are more nutters now, or if Youtube and the like have just given them more of a platform, but there does seem to be more nuttery about than their used to be. Maybe it was always there and we just didn't see it before. Now any idiot with a camera and an Internet connection can spew his nonsense to the world.

[redlite]

Not to mention, a Constitutional guarantee to speak on whatever they want, within the law. Lot of people paid dearly for that Right. Pointy shoes and tie-dyed tee shirts are annoying, too. Just exercise your Right and look away, turn them off. Nobody, except maybe someone in the 'Hollow Head Society' is buying that load anyway.

[gtc]

Now any idiot with a camera and an Internet connection can spew his nonsense to the world.

And find like minded people too who will encourage each other to spew ever more nonsense.

Obama's campaign showed the right the benefits of using social networking sites, email etc to organise political movements. Now the nutters are using those same techniques to co-ordinate their movements.

See its all Obama's fault!

[arthwollipot]

I think you have that around the wrong way.Nominated.

[arthwollipot]

Seriously.

Why would I? Where would I?

Where do you encounter them? Not living in the USA, I imagine you're having to go pretty far out of your way.Okay, to be fair, I exaggerated. When I was in the US earlier this year, I didn't personally encounter them either. And my knowledge of American social politics comes mainly from Jon Stewart, so I may well have a... biased perspective. I withdraw the comment.

[LightinDarkness]

I'm about as anti-conspiracy theorist as you can get, but I have to disagree with the OP. Your comments seem VERY politically oriented.

Although conspiracy mongering CAN be political, its happens on both sides and I am not convinced it can explain the legions of CTs that are not political. Because the DNC has power the right will have a vocal minority of conspiracy nut cases. When the RNC has power the left has the same vocal minority of fruitcakes, spinning their own brand of CT. I think most CTs come from ignorance and a desire to have special knowledge about what is "really" going on in a complex world that most people just don't understand. Do politics play a role in them? Yes, as it did with 9/11 truthers (liberal fruitcakes) and Obama birthers (conservative fruitcakes).

But the conspiracies like the NWO, Freemasonry, Illuminati, etc. - these come from a much deeper, more disturbing brand of stupidity. And it is those that concern me. The others will pass when the parties switch power again (as they inevitably do every 6-8 years).

[horza66]

Citations, please? Sounds less like a realistic explanation and more like a conspiracy theory in its own right.

Still one post away from urls dammit ... anyway:

Check Baucus's wiki page for how much in campaign contributions he's received from healthcare groups. He's taken a moratorium on receiving more, but he's not giving back what he's already got.

ABC has a news story leading with how health care lobbyists outnumber congress 6 to 1, easily googled for. There's nearly $300 million sloshing around K street looking for anyone willing to shoot holes in the plan.

Compare and contrast historically with the workings of the tobacco lobby, gun lobby, oil lobby - it's all the same K street groups, with the same methods. There's no conspiracy. No-one needs to tell the crazies what to say - lobbyists don't care, just so long as they make some noise. It's all about managing perception. Members of congress are given the impression that the plan, any plan is unpopular. Some of them are dumb enough to buy that. Some of them are venal enough to just take the money.

Real world politics is pretty ugly. It doesn't need any conspiracies to make it so.

[carlitos]

Okay, to be fair, I exaggerated. When I was in the US earlier this year, I didn't personally encounter them either. And my knowledge of American social politics comes mainly from Jon Stewart, so I may well have a... biased perspective. I withdraw the comment.

That was very big of you. This is just another media-driven 'crisis' which shall pass very soon. This happens from time to time here, when those in the press just don't understand what's going on. Don't fret. No violent revolution is at hand. People protesting taxes here is a 300-year-old tradition; perhaps those who fear the TEA protests could read a little history...

[Jontg]

I happen to be a history major. Ever hear of a lovely little affair called the Whiskey Rebellion? The Posse Comitatus movement? Timothy McVeigh? Violence on the part of these wackos isn't anything new, either.

[carlitos]

I happen to be an adult. You may be too young to remember the 'epidemic' of church fires in the 90's, yet another media-driven pseudo-crisis that turned out to be false. Relax.

[Sunray Breaker]

I happen to be a history major. Ever hear of a lovely little affair called the Whiskey Rebellion? The Posse Comitatus movement? Timothy McVeigh? Violence on the part of these wackos isn't anything new, either.
Not to mention the Montana Freeman Incident, Holocaust Museum shooting, Ruby Ridge, Christian Identity Movement, Militia Movement, Olympic Pipe Bombing, Dr. Tiller Murder, a whole slew of abortion clinic bombings and shootings....I have to agree with you...The conservative christian right can be VERY dangerous.


I happen to be an adult. You may be too young to remember the 'epidemic' of church fires in the 90's, yet another media-driven pseudo-crisis that turned out to be false. Relax.
With this case it's not a pattern. It's random willy nilly violence that comes from confused and armed extremists...Not just people lighting buildings on fire.

[leafman91]

I think....
I think....

Therefore I am wanting to belong.


It's part of the natural human psyche. I agree with you, aspects of the media and politics have gotten way too out of hand. What does Alex Jones think he is going to achieve yammering away into a set of headphones on how the US government is losing it? That it will help anyone? It is the Age Of Information, and what too much information does to a person: It makes them feel small. The heads of the extremist movement are clamouring for attention, desperately. As far as they can see, attention is a sign of control. To be listened to is not to show that the other person cares, but that you have power over that person. For some, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. People get sucked into a world of distrust and power games that exist only as some form of infectious illusion. Perhaps some may have heard of Rene Descartes' evil demon? Is anything so self evident that it cannot be doubted? For followers of extremism, the answer seems to be yes. It is obvious that National Healthcare is a death panel, or that jihad against the nations of the West is just and righteous. But what if God or some evil demon is tricking you? Couldn't such a spirit fool you into thinking that what was false is true? And the extremists point at the rest of the public, and the media, and the government, or anyone else who happens to be in power, and call them the evil demons, the decievers, the malicious liars. And don't think to look in the mirror, and then see who are the ones placing the car bombs, or making the streets unsafe. That their leaders spread the same lies and decieve the same ways they see the government to do. But why? Because to them, it is self evident that these leaders or not malign, and mean no harm. Because to them, it is self evident that these leaders have enlightened them or 'shown them the truth', or elevated them somehow to a higher plane of knowledge. To them it is self evident that they belong there.

And so the question arises, how do you show some one to doubt something so self-evident to an extent where they can see that it is not self evident?

But then the other question arises. What will be done with the answer?

[carlitos]

Not to mention the Montana Freeman Incident, Holocaust Museum shooting, Ruby Ridge, Christian Identity Movement, Militia Movement, Olympic Pipe Bombing, Dr. Tiller Murder, a whole slew of abortion clinic bombings and shootings....I have to agree with you...The conservative christian right can be VERY dangerous.All sorts of people can be very dangerous. Listing a bunch of them together accomplishes ... compiling a list.

With this case it's not a pattern. It's random willy nilly violence that comes from confused and armed extremists...Not just people lighting buildings on fire.
The OP says "How do we stop them?" Do you have a suggestion for stopping "random willy nilly violence?"

There have been as many or more Muslims committing violent acts in recent years - the Seattle synogogue shooting, USF students with pipe bombs, the guy who ran his car into students (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-08-12-371843035_x.htm) at NC state...

Is there really such an existential threat from there being a few wackos of any persuasion, that we must run about shouting 'glenn beck! tea baggers!' - seems alarmist to me.

[Jontg]

Existential threat?! What, so something that isn't going to destroy the world isn't worth worrying about? Yes, I asked how we stop them--figuring that out is the point of this thread! And here you are trying to act as though these nutjobs are inconsequential! Did you sleep through the last decade or so? Do you need another reminder of what people who think like this can do? Two of these people blew up the Murrah building! Nineteen destroyed the World Trade Center! Not even a century ago, they gained control of entire nations and killed millions of people! And their direct ideological descendants are at the heart of the 9/11 conspiracy theorists! None of this even registers with you?

[Sunray Breaker]

Is there really such an existential threat from there being a few wackos of any persuasion, that we must run about shouting 'glenn beck! tea baggers!' - seems alarmist to me.
Considering their ideologies are still perpetuated by the mass media, by right-wing networks, churches and people like Rush Limbaugh, AJ.

Whereas, who is the Muslim extremeist ring leader in the United States and what political party backs his rhetoric? You're forgetting that many people on the right, that supported Bush, are falling into this CT camp, because it gives them an outlet to criticize the dems, but it also give extremists a stronger voice when political affiliates, former military and celebrities start endorsing them. How many celebrities are endorsing Muslim extremism as opposed to Info Wars?

[carlitos]

I'm sure that we will stop nutjobs from committing violence right around the time we solve poverty and cure cancer. Sorry for posting here, since apparently I am required to share your view that the sky is falling in order to comment.

Protip - count the exclamation points in your posts. It's a little high, which makes it seem like you are losing it a little bit.

ETA - the above was directed at Jontg, 2 posts up

Sunray - you are making my point for me. There is no leader, no media, no political party, and yet Muslim nutjobs still make violence. The right-wing stuff is a media phenomenon.

[redlite]

[QUOTE=Jontg = Do you need another reminder of what people who think like this can do?


Maybe you should furnish us a list of subjects and how we should think....wait a minute, wait a minute.....

Loose Change morons the 'Direct Ideological Descendants' of Hitler? Now I'm pissed, I thought they were just a bunch of lazy kids trying to get rich off the blood of thousands.....

Yeah, it's starting to register....

[bookitty]

Existential threat?! What, so something that isn't going to destroy the world isn't worth worrying about? Yes, I asked how we stop them--figuring that out is the point of this thread! And here you are trying to act as though these nutjobs are inconsequential! Did you sleep through the last decade or so? Do you need another reminder of what people who think like this can do? Two of these people blew up the Murrah building! Nineteen destroyed the World Trade Center! Not even a century ago, they gained control of entire nations and killed millions of people! And their direct ideological descendants are at the heart of the 9/11 conspiracy theorists! None of this even registers with you?

Religious fundies are scary people, regardless of the religion. When they lose it, they lose it big time. There does seem to be a rise in Christian fundimentalism in this country. It can be scary.

But just because they are very noisy doesn't mean that they are any sort of majority. There are probably the same number of people who are crazy enough to do something violently stupid as there have always been. Christian fundamentalism is just the face of that crazy this season.

But not all Christian fundamentalists are anywhere near crazy enough to do something violent (regardless of what they say on forums or on signs held in front of TV cameras.) Most people just want to raise their kids, go to work, have weekends off and spout rhetoric about what is wrong with this country.

[Jontg]

Maybe you should furnish us a list of subjects and how we should think....wait a minute, wait a minute.....

Loose Change morons the 'Direct Ideological Descendants' of Hitler? Now I'm pissed, I thought they were just a bunch of lazy kids trying to get rich off the blood of thousands.....

Yeah, it's starting to register....
The core of the self-proclaimed "Truth" Movement is made up of neo-Nazis and anti-Semites--and even when they have the brains to try and hide it, it's fairly easy to piece together the code. They basically recycle all the old canards and replace "Jews" with "Globalists" and "wealthy bankers." Most of the rank and file truthers are just teenage posers and wannabe rebels, but there are plenty of worse cases out there, like our very own Mondial and MaGZ ("Missile at Ground Zero"), who are outspoken Nazi sympathizers and Holocaust deniers.
ETA: Oh, and nice touch with the little Orwellian jab.
ETA2: Bookitty, it's not as much Christian fundamentalism I'm worried about as conspiracism--this pervasive, seductive idea that there's some sort of invisible cabal controlling everything behind the scenes. McVeigh was one, Hitler was one, Glenn Beck is one, and it seems like everyone in the old Republican power bloc, even some on our own forum, is starting to show symptoms. I know them quite well, as I used to be one myself--it's easy to fall into that short circuit, to blame everyone else for your problems and play Neo for awhile. The unconscious loves to play dress-up, and there's nothing wrong with that as long as you remember to take the mask off when it's time to be normal again--but some people feel a need to wear a mask, any mask other than their own face. It happens that Keanu Reeves' face is a popular one these days, but the disorder is the same, and the end result is always the same godawful mess.

[theprestige]

The core of the self-proclaimed "Truth" Movement is made up of neo-Nazis and anti-Semites--and even when they have the brains to try and hide it, it's fairly easy to piece together the code. They basically recycle all the old canards and replace "Jews" with "Globalists" and "wealthy bankers." Most of the rank and file truthers are just teenage posers and wannabe rebels, but there are plenty of worse cases out there, like our very own Mondial and MaGZ ("Missile at Ground Zero"), who are outspoken Nazi sympathizers and Holocaust deniers.
ETA: Oh, and nice touch with the little Orwellian jab.
ETA2: Bookitty, it's not as much Christian fundamentalism I'm worried about as conspiracism--this pervasive, seductive idea that there's some sort of invisible cabal controlling everything behind the scenes. McVeigh was one, Hitler was one, Glenn Beck is one, and it seems like everyone in the old Republican power bloc, even some on our own forum, is starting to show symptoms. I know them quite well, as I used to be one myself--it's easy to fall into that short circuit, to blame everyone else for your problems and play Neo for awhile. The unconscious loves to play dress-up, and there's nothing wrong with that as long as you remember to take the mask off when it's time to be normal again--but some people feel a need to wear a mask, any mask other than their own face. It happens that Keanu Reeves' face is a popular one these days, but the disorder is the same, and the end result is always the same godawful mess.
So... there's a growing conspiracy of... conspiracy theorists? And they're out to get us all? And we should do something to stop them?

Well, at least you're posting in the right subforum, I guess.

[bookitty]

The core of the self-proclaimed "Truth" Movement is made up of neo-Nazis and anti-Semites--and even when they have the brains to try and hide it, it's fairly easy to piece together the code. They basically recycle all the old canards and replace "Jews" with "Globalists" and "wealthy bankers." Most of the rank and file truthers are just teenage posers and wannabe rebels, but there are plenty of worse cases out there, like our very own Mondial and MaGZ ("Missile at Ground Zero"), who are outspoken Nazi sympathizers and Holocaust deniers.
ETA: Oh, and nice touch with the little Orwellian jab.
ETA2: Bookitty, it's not as much Christian fundamentalism I'm worried about as conspiracism--this pervasive, seductive idea that there's some sort of invisible cabal controlling everything behind the scenes. McVeigh was one, Hitler was one, Glenn Beck is one, and it seems like everyone in the old Republican power bloc, even some on our own forum, is starting to show symptoms. I know them quite well, as I used to be one myself--it's easy to fall into that short circuit, to blame everyone else for your problems and play Neo for awhile. The unconscious loves to play dress-up, and there's nothing wrong with that as long as you remember to take the mask off when it's time to be normal again--but some people feel a need to wear a mask, any mask other than their own face. It happens that Keanu Reeves' face is a popular one these days, but the disorder is the same, and the end result is always the same godawful mess.

It doesn't matter what the face is or who you fear. We always have a percentage of the population who is crazy and has the potential for violence. There isn't much we can do about it and very little way to prevent it. That sucks, it really does. However, you can take heart in the fact that you are no more in danger today than you were 10 years ago.

Take a deep breath. Look around. Go outside. Ponder how the odds are in your favor.

[LightinDarkness]

There seems to be a selective ignoring of conspiracy nutjobs that agree with ones political views going on here, while painting those who disagree as part of the vast majority of conspiracy theorists. This sounds more like a political witch hunt than anything else. I listen to Air America on my morning commute, and the amount of conspiracy nutjob hosts on there during the Bush years was amazing. On CT boards we heard that George Bush was plotting to take over America by implementing martial law every month, that he would never step down, that he would rig the elections, etc. All of this doesn't mean the left equals any majority of the conspiracy wackos though...same goes for the other side.

Also, I would be careful with the names here. Although I do not listen to Rush Limbaugh on any regular basis I listened to a few of his shows during the height of the birther madness..and he was making fun of them and deriding them for focusing on conspiracy theories instead of the real issues. Right wing pundit? Yes. Conspiracy theorist? Not so much.

Im not going to read this thread anymore because it seems to be a back and forth of "I do not agree with the right, and there are conspiracy lunatics on the right, therefore the right makes up the majority of the conspiracy theorist movement!" sort of logic - which is rather sad for JREF.

[Jontg]

So... there's a growing conspiracy of... conspiracy theorists? And they're out to get us all? And we should do something to stop them?

Well, at least you're posting in the right subforum, I guess.

Where, exactly, did I say there was a conspiracy? Or any real organization, for that matter? The whole reason they aren't dangerous yet is because they don't have a leader figure yet. Plenty of them are accusing each other of being In On It--that's why the best option I can see is to hope that they implode before somebody climbs to the top of the heap and makes some sort of power grab.
You also conveniently forget that I blamed the Bush administration in part for fostering this atmosphere of paranoid conspiracism in the first place. Left-wing resentment of Bush's policies made it cool to think the Man was after you, and if he hadn't used 9/11 as a flimsy pretext for war and tried to strip away our civil liberties, 9/11 Truth would never have been a problem.

[theprestige]

Where, exactly, did I say there was a conspiracy? Or any real organization, for that matter? The whole reason they aren't dangerous yet is because they don't have a leader figure yet. Plenty of them are accusing each other of being In On It--that's why the best option I can see is to hope that they implode before somebody climbs to the top of the heap and makes some sort of power grab.
Is there any reasonable expectation that this will not happen?

You also conveniently forget that I blamed the Bush administration in part for fostering this atmosphere of paranoid conspiracism in the first place. Left-wing resentment of Bush's policies made it cool to think the Man was after you, and if he hadn't used 9/11 as a flimsy pretext for war and tried to strip away our civil liberties, 9/11 Truth would never have been a problem.
Correction: I conveniently do not care.

Besides, the Apollo Project was never used as a pretext for war or stripping away our civil liberties, but all kinds of people found all kinds of excuses to buy into Apollo Hoax CTs anyway.

I see no reason to think that 9/11 CTs would have developed any differently, regardless of US response to the attacks.

Nor do I see where 9/11 Truth is any more of a problem than Apollo Hoax is a problem.

[carlitos]

It doesn't matter what the face is or who you fear. We always have a percentage of the population who is crazy and has the potential for violence. There isn't much we can do about it and very little way to prevent it. That sucks, it really does. However, you can take heart in the fact that you are no more in danger today than you were 10 years ago.

Take a deep breath. Look around. Go outside. Ponder how the odds are in your favor.

Seconded.

[16.5]

9/11 Truth would never have been a problem.

9/11 Truth is a problem?

Lad, take it easy, go have a home brew.