Muslim or Arab? You choose.

[Southwind17]

So, I'm listening to the BBC World Service news this morning and some think tank in the States has revealed some latest statistics on Muslims, such as one in four people on the planet is now Muslim, 60% of all Muslims live in Asia and only 20% of those live in the Middle East, there are more Muslims living in Germany than in Palestine and more in Russia than in Jordan and some other country combined. What has the think tank apparently deduced from this? They claim that these findings "destroys the [notion] that all Muslims are Arabs and all Arabs are Muslims."

Now, regarding anybody actually ignorant enough to believe or perceive the first point, 5 minutes research on the Internet would have put paid to that idea (should any such person actually be interested in really knowing). As for the second point, how on Earth do the findings lead them to that conclusion?

Go think tank - well done!!!

[Peter i]

But think about how much money they have used, and how many dinners they have eaten while being so bright and analytical!

Stating the obvious and getting paid generously for it. That's a true art!
:jaw-dropp

[Lothian]

According to the BBC website (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/8296200.stm)the “Not all Arabs are Muslim” quote is not from the report but the surprised conclusion of an assistant professor of politics at Princeton University who read the report. What do they teach people in America?

[Thunder]

Most Arabs are indeed Muslim.

[paximperium]

Most Arabs are indeed Muslim.
But most Muslims are not Arab.

[Dancing David]

So, I'm listening to the BBC World Service news this morning and some think tank in the States has revealed some latest statistics on Muslims, such as one in four people on the planet is now Muslim, 60% of all Muslims live in Asia and only 20% of those live in the Middle East, there are more Muslims living in Germany than in Palestine and more in Russia than in Jordan and some other country combined. What has the think tank apparently deduced from this? They claim that these findings "destroys the [notion] that all Muslims are Arabs and all Arabs are Muslims."

Now, regarding anybody actually ignorant enough to believe or perceive the first point, 5 minutes research on the Internet would have put paid to that idea (should any such person actually be interested in really knowing). As for the second point, how on Earth do the findings lead them to that conclusion?

Go think tank - well done!!!

Well, the US is sort of a parochial place, you would be very suprised at the lack of general knowledge about the world outside the US.

Especially when you get to the great interior and away from the coasts (but even there the lack of knowledge is astounding).

So anyone who looks like they are swarthy and not an 'eyetalian' is likely to be called an 'ayrab'. So regardless of where they are from they will be lablled as an 'ayrab', Morrocco. they haven't heard of it, the fact that most Iraqis are 'Persian' doesn't matter, they are 'ayrabs', the fact that Afghanistan has like five language groups doesn't matter, they are 'ayrabs' as are Pakistanis.

They are unknowing of what Indonesia is, where it is or what the culture there is like, depite the fact that it is the most populous nation in the area.

It gets even worse when it comes to things like Iran, and what the US involvement in Iran was. Much less Chile.

As Alan jackson said in 'Where were you"

I'm just a singer of simple songs
I'm not a real political man
I watch CNN but I'm not sure I can tell you
The difference in Iraq and Iran

[Darth Rotor]

So, I'm listening to the BBC World Service news this morning and some think tank in the States has revealed some latest statistics on Muslims, such as one in four people on the planet is now Muslim, 60% of all Muslims live in Asia and only 20% of those live in the Middle East, there are more Muslims living in Germany than in Palestine and more in Russia than in Jordan and some other country combined. What has the think tank apparently deduced from this? They claim that these findings "destroys the [notion] that all Muslims are Arabs and all Arabs are Muslims."

Now, regarding anybody actually ignorant enough to believe or perceive the first point, 5 minutes research on the Internet would have put paid to that idea (should any such person actually be interested in really knowing). As for the second point, how on Earth do the findings lead them to that conclusion?

Go think tank - well done!!!
Where is the Holy Site of Islam, where doctrinally adherent Muslims are to pray five times per day, located? What language and script is/was used to spread Islam?

One will have an extremely hard time decoupling "Arab" from "Muslim" in terms of cultural influence.

That said, I applaud the point that Islam has spread, is not monolithic, and includes adherents of diverse populations and regions.

DR

[Hux]

As far as I understand it, Arabs come from the Arabian Peninsula. That's all. It didnt take an expert to tell that Cat Stephens (now Yusoof Islam) isnt an Arab.

The whole thing missed the point. Islam is infesting every country without restriction.

[kerikiwi]

Islam is infesting every country without restriction.

Infesting? Every country? Without restriction?
Not given to hyperbole, are you?

[Southwind17]

Islam is infesting every country without restriction.
Infesting? Every country? Without restriction?
Not given to hyperbole, are you?
It's a provocative sentiment, for sure, but not one that I'd take exception to.

[kerikiwi]

It's a provocative sentiment, for sure, but not one that I'd take exception to.

It is not provocative so much as false.

[Slayhamlet]

Well, the US is sort of a parochial place, you would be very suprised at the lack of general knowledge about the world outside the US.

Especially when you get to the great interior and away from the coasts (but even there the lack of knowledge is astounding).

So anyone who looks like they are swarthy and not an 'eyetalian' is likely to be called an 'ayrab'. So regardless of where they are from they will be lablled as an 'ayrab', Morrocco. they haven't heard of it, the fact that most Iraqis are 'Persian' doesn't matter, they are 'ayrabs', the fact that Afghanistan has like five language groups doesn't matter, they are 'ayrabs' as are Pakistanis.

They are unknowing of what Indonesia is, where it is or what the culture there is like, depite the fact that it is the most populous nation in the area.

It gets even worse when it comes to things like Iran, and what the US involvement in Iran was. Much less Chile.

As Alan jackson said in 'Where were you"

Since when are most Iraqis Persian? Or did you put 'Persian' in quotes for a reason? A rather bizarre idiosyncrasy, if I may say so.

I've also never heard the word "Arab" pronounced "ayrab" except in mockery of the kind of people who supposedly pronounce it that way.

[Slayhamlet]

One in four people on the planet are Muslim? I rather doubt that. One in five, maybe.

[GreNME]

It is not provocative so much as false.

Now, now, be fair. The two aren't mutually exclusive. It can be both provocative and false. Of course, it's more false than it is provocative, but it's certainly a provocative statement.

[Hux]

There was, at the last count, 1.4 billion Muslims on the planet. What does that transcribe to in terms of overall population?

[Hux]

INFEST BY DEFINITION:

1. to overrun or inhabit in large numbers, usually so as to be harmful or bothersome; swarm in or over.
2. to be parasitic in or on (a host)

No hyperbole there I feel. Try it out in Europe.

[GreNME]

One in four people on the planet are Muslim? I rather doubt that. One in five, maybe.

Decent reference guide (http://www.asoon.org/a-world.htm). Some say the actual numbers are closer to 1.6 or 1.8 billion, in which case one in four would be accurate. Depends on the numbers they use.

[GreNME]

There was, at the last count, 1.4 billion Muslims on the planet. What does that transcribe to in terms of overall population?

1.5 billion, actually, and some sources put that as higher. It doesn't "transcribe" to anything except being representative of a portion of the human population. But, by all means, feel free to ascribe a value to it if you wish.

INFEST BY DEFINITION:

1. to overrun or inhabit in large numbers, usually so as to be harmful or bothersome; swarm in or over.
2. to be parasitic in or on (a host)

No hyperbole there I feel. Try it out in Europe.

The pejorative you are implying is precisely why it's hyperbole, and bigoted hyperbole at that.

What's the matter? Angry that being white and Christian doesn't put you in the largest or most powerful demographic any longer?

[kerikiwi]

INFEST BY DEFINITION:

1. to overrun or inhabit in large numbers, usually so as to be harmful or bothersome; swarm in or over.
2. to be parasitic in or on (a host)

No hyperbole there I feel. Try it out in Europe.

You may well 'feel' there is no hyperbole, but your statement is bigotted, hyperbolic tripe.
And how does Europe equal 'every country'?

[Hux]

1.5 billion, actually, and some sources put that as higher. It doesn't "transcribe" to anything except being representative of a portion of the human population. But, by all means, feel free to ascribe a value to it if you wish.



The pejorative you are implying is precisely why it's hyperbole, and bigoted hyperbole at that.

What's the matter? Angry that being white and Christian doesn't put you in the largest or most powerful demographic any longer?

I don't ascribe any value. I merely asked what the ratio would be for thiose numbers.

As for the rest: Wow! how wrong can you be?

[Thunder]

The whole thing missed the point. Islam is infesting every country without restriction.

they said almost identical things about the Jews in Europe. and then they got rid of 2/3rds of the Jews of Europe.

[Hux]

Let us get one thing straight here. I despise Islam. I despise virtually every little nuance of it. But I have no ill will towards any Muslim (except the jihadists and I look forward to their extermination for safety sake). if I could remove Islam from every Muslim without harming a hair on their head, i would do it in a heartbeat. So do not equate me with Nazis.

In europe, the Islamic voice goes further than the US and their voices carry further than their figures would indicate. The terribly PC brigade grant the slightest, most ridiculous things in their favour out of fear of violence or more surely, at the risk of being called bigots.

So you come to even a stupid situation where a 600 year old pub has to change its name because three Somali muslims complain about it. its hardly democratic, not even funny but the heart of it is insidiously creeping into European society. I think that Islam also imagines that the vast spaces left by the death of Christianity in Europe, is an inviatation for them to promote their own stupidity.

[Marduk]

http://hosting05.imagecross.com/image-hosting-08/3153Religion-Pie-Chart.gif
;)

Let us get one thing straight here. I despise Islam. I despise virtually every little nuance of it. But I have no ill will towards any Muslim (except the jihadists and I look forward to their extermination for safety sake). if I could remove Islam from every Muslim without harming a hair on their head, i would do it in a heartbeat. So do not equate me with Nazis.
youre suggesting a radical policy of enforced cultural change in line with your beliefs
tell me, when playing Jan Ken Pon do you often choose paper ?

[GreNME]

I don't ascribe any value. I merely asked what the ratio would be for thiose numbers.

As for the rest: Wow! how wrong can you be?

I don't care if you're actually a Christian or not. You're smugly demanding that brown people with a religion you don't like change to be more like the people that are like you.

As for the value you're ascribing: re-read the definition you provided, as it clearly describes a value judgment.

Let us get one thing straight here. I despise Islam. I despise virtually every little nuance of it. But I have no ill will towards any Muslim (except the jihadists and I look forward to their extermination for safety sake). if I could remove Islam from every Muslim without harming a hair on their head, i would do it in a heartbeat. So do not equate me with Nazis.

You hate the broad overgeneralization you've created that strangely resembles a carefully-worded synonym for "brown and black people" and you seem to expect us to take that seriously as a valid position.

In europe, the Islamic voice goes further than the US and their voices carry further than their figures would indicate. The terribly PC brigade grant the slightest, most ridiculous things in their favour out of fear of violence or more surely, at the risk of being called bigots.

Ahh, the good old middle-class-white-boy bitterness, attacking strawmen to support a bigoted stance.

So you come to even a stupid situation where a 600 year old pub has to change its name because three Somali muslims complain about it. its hardly democratic, not even funny but the heart of it is insidiously creeping into European society. I think that Islam also imagines that the vast spaces left by the death of Christianity in Europe, is an inviatation for them to promote their own stupidity.

Sounds like you're grinding a personal grudge and dressing it up similar to an actual argument.

[kerikiwi]

So you come to even a stupid situation where a 600 year old pub has to change its name because three Somali muslims complain about it.

Where and when did that happen?

[bluesjnr]

Kerikiwi go here for detail;

http://www.birminghammail.net/news/birmingham-news/2008/11/20/anger-over-plans-to-change-name-of-saracen-s-head-pub-in-kings-norton-green-97319-22300761/

or here.

http://amboytimes.typepad.com/the_amboy_times/2008/11/historic-british-pub-offends-muslims.html.

Not 600 years old. No longer a pub and not proven on the "forced" name change. That said, I'm with Hux specifically on this issue as I think there has been a bit of overcooked PC going on (IMO). The building was called the Saracens Head. If you're confused about why that could be an issue (which I doubt you are) feel free to google.

Furthermore, there are many more existing pubs still trading with exactly the same name in the UK. Glasgow has one that is known locally as the Sarry Heed (Sorry Head) which is what you have the morning after spending too much time in there

[wollery]

In point of fact, if you read the story, they're retaining the name for the cafe.

So, hardly that big of a PC concession. :rolleyes:

[six7s]

In point of fact, if you read the story, they're retaining the name for the cafe.Hmmm...

Mr Morris denied the charge adding the site would be home to the Saracen’s Head Cafe.

He said: “I’m surprised at how many people have complained.”If Bal-ham is the 'gateway to the South', does that make Kings Norton Green the 'back-door to the middle-of-nowhere'?

[UnrepentantSinner]

...the fact that most Iraqis are 'Persian' doesn't matter, they are 'ayrabs',...Since when are most Iraqis Persian?

I'm wondering about that myself. Iraqs population is majority Arab with a sizable Kurd minority, neither of which are Persian.

So you come to even a stupid situation where a 600 year old pub has to change its name because three Somali muslims complain about it.

Did you read about that in the Times, the Independant or the Guardian?

The building was called the Saracens Head.

*snerk

Let me guess, they're not changing it to the Mameluke's Beard? :D

[Hux]

My apologies; the pub is only 300 years old.

The "Porking Yard" Incident in Bristol was quite hilarious also.

[bluesjnr]

In point of fact, if you read the story, they're retaining the name for the cafe.

So, hardly that big of a PC concession. :rolleyes:



I'm assuming your rolled eyed sarcasm was directed at me wollery? Well of course I read the story. Why would I have gone to the trouble of supplying the links in the first place then not verify that they were relevant?

Why do you imply that I hadn't read the story?

Is it because I have an obviously lower threshold of PC craziness than you. Can you tell me how it's quantified or what measure you use? I would say it's subjective this PC lark.

I really don't believe the reasons given for the name change. It's a community centre used (I would think) by the local community. I find it hard to believe that the townsfolk were confused about it's current use due to it's name.

[Dancing David]

Since when are most Iraqis Persian? Or did you put 'Persian' in quotes for a reason? A rather bizarre idiosyncrasy, if I may say so.

I think I meant to put Iran, the point being that wether you like it or not most USers would not make a distiction between a person from any 'islamic' nation and another and that they refer to the vast majority of the them as 'arabs'.


I've also never heard the word "Arab" pronounced "ayrab" except in mockery of the kind of people who supposedly pronounce it that way.


How familiar are you with the pronunciation of english is the midwest? Here in central illinois it is a the long 'a', so it is usually 'ay'-rab as opposed to 'air'-rab. Just for reference, in a local county there is a town called 'San Jose', except the pronouce it 'joese' not 'hozay'.

Now there is variation in the length of the 'a' in arab as well, it tends to become more 'ay' the closer you are to I-70 and south of it, it is strange but the Mason-Dixon line basically goes through Decatur, IL. So depending on the settlement of the county you can have quite a bit of a more 'southern' dialect, it also depends on the size of the town you live in. Some people I think make it an affectation as well. Down by Vandalia/Greenville you will find more of a 'southern' dialect than up by Kankakee. But it also seems to depends on the size of a town and translocation of people from jobs, in Danville Illinois you will find more of the 'southern' dialect than you will in Champaign-Urbana.

[Dancing David]

I'm wondering about that myself. Iraqs population is majority Arab with a sizable Kurd minority, neither of which are Persian.

Nope, I goofed, I meant Iran.
:oops:

[Darth Rotor]

What's the matter? Angry that being white and Christian doesn't put you in the largest or most powerful demographic any longer?

It was never the largest. See Asia. ;)

[Darth Rotor]

they said almost identical things about the Jews in Europe. and then they got rid of 2/3rds of the Jews of Europe.

Godwin arrives, on schedule. Huzzah. The easy way to kill all of those strange Abrahamics is to ensure that nothing but oysters, scallops, pork, ham, and Bacon is permitted to be served for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

Let the wild rumpus of silly posts commence ...

[Last of the Fraggles]

So you come to even a stupid situation where a 600 year old pub has to change its name because three Somali muslims complain about it. its hardly democratic, not even funny but the heart of it is insidiously creeping into European society. I think that Islam also imagines that the vast spaces left by the death of Christianity in Europe, is an inviatation for them to promote their own stupidity.

Daily Mail reader by any chance?

I have yet to see any of these PC-gone-mad situations ever match the description of them by those citing them as evidence.

If anything is 'infesting' the UK, its horrible attitudes like the one you seem to have and the weasley rise of parties like the BNP on the back of lazy and/or evil journalism in the gutter press.

[GreNME]

Is it because I have an obviously lower threshold of PC craziness than you. Can you tell me how it's quantified or what measure you use? I would say it's subjective this PC lark.

Considering "PC" is a strawman most often used by those who don't want to be challenged on stupid prejudices, I'd say your objection is poorly-built.

[kerikiwi]

My apologies; the pub is only 300 years old.



It seems you were wrong about the other bits too.

[wollery]

I'm assuming your rolled eyed sarcasm was directed at me wollery? Well of course I read the story. Why would I have gone to the trouble of supplying the links in the first place then not verify that they were relevant?

Why do you imply that I hadn't read the story?

Is it because I have an obviously lower threshold of PC craziness than you. Can you tell me how it's quantified or what measure you use? I would say it's subjective this PC lark.

I really don't believe the reasons given for the name change. It's a community centre used (I would think) by the local community. I find it hard to believe that the townsfolk were confused about it's current use due to it's name.I grew up in Brent in the 1980s, where just the words "black" and "brown" were considered racist. I grew up without inter-school sports, because one team has to lose, and it's bad for children to lose, apparently :rolleyes:. I grew up with "personal access covers" instead of manhole covers, with "chalkboards" instead of blackboards. I grew up in a place where they changed the words to nursery rhymes because they were "sexist" or "racist". I grew up with positive discrimination, and all the problems that causes. In the 1980s Brent was among the looniest of the loony left boroughs, renowned for its PC craziness, and I lived through it.

I know PC craziness when I see it, and this doesn't even come close. If it was done for PC reasons they wouldn't have retained the name for the coffee shop. It's just that simple. The name is still there, so if it's about offending Muslims then they're still doing it! How can that possibly be PC? :confused:

[bluesjnr]

Considering "PC" is a strawman most often used by those who don't want to be challenged on stupid prejudices, I'd say your objection is poorly-built.

I'm happy to admit to my prejudices. I'm aware how they are viewed by many but not all. I wouldn't call myself an extremist and having shared a flat with a Muslim for 2 years I would say that I'm less prejudiced than ALL of the Muslims that I have met. I did not introduce the PC argument so it's not my strawman. It's in the articles linked and therefore can be debated whilst ignoring your generalisation.

I grew up in Brent in the 1980s, where just the words "black" and "brown" were considered racist. I grew up without inter-school sports, because one team has to lose, and it's bad for children to lose, apparently :rolleyes:. I grew up with "personal access covers" instead of manhole covers, with "chalkboards" instead of blackboards. I grew up in a place where they changed the words to nursery rhymes because they were "sexist" or "racist". I grew up with positive discrimination, and all the problems that causes. In the 1980s Brent was among the looniest of the loony left boroughs, renowned for its PC craziness, and I lived through it.

I know PC craziness when I see it, and this doesn't even come close. If it was done for PC reasons they wouldn't have retained the name for the coffee shop. It's just that simple. The name is still there, so if it's about offending Muslims then they're still doing it! How can that possibly be PC? :confused:

You grew up in exactly the same times as I and in the same country, assuming that you're talking about Brent in the UK. We were both subject to these changes and both lived through them. That kind of blows a hole in your perceived expertise on the subject. Under your terms I can claim that I know PC craziness when I see it. The cafe thing, in my opinion, would qualify as an appeasment and nothing more. Will the cafe enjoy equal billing? Will the cafe's name be in the same font and size as the new name where written? I don't know but I doubt it.

Perhaps any forum members who live near the place might be able to confirm my assertion?

I simply cannot see any gain for name change. I cannot see that it will drive more customers to the centre. It's a local community centre used by local people.This name change is being sneaked in under a different guise. Bear in mind that in 2004 the Very Rev Morris went on record about the name being offensive to Muslims.

[SusanB-M1]

One in four people on the planet are Muslim? I rather doubt that. One in five, maybe.
There was a programme a few years ago about statistics and the comment that really stood out was that any statistic that says 1 in 4 is not worth paying attention to!

[Southwind17]

There was a programme a few years ago about statistics and the comment that really stood out was that any statistic that says 1 in 4 is not worth paying attention to!
Not even 1 in 4 sets of twins is male/male (or female/female)? ;)
How about 1 in 4 edges of a door is hinged? I suppose that's more fact than stat.

[wollery]

You grew up in exactly the same times as I and in the same country, assuming that you're talking about Brent in the UK. We were both subject to these changes and both lived through them. That kind of blows a hole in your perceived expertise on the subject. Under your terms I can claim that I know PC craziness when I see it.I note that you don't say that you lived in a "loony left" borough, only that you lived in the same country at the same time. I'm sorry to say this, because it's going to sound condescending, but I know a lot of people from all over the UK, and almost without exception, unless they lived in one of those few boroughs that went the whole hog, they really don't get it. They heard about it on the news, and read about it in the newspapers, but they didn't live through it. It makes a big difference, believe me. I have a huge and almost irrational hatred of anything that even smells of PC. And this just doesn't smell PC to me. Sorry.

The cafe thing, in my opinion, would qualify as an appeasment and nothing more. Will the cafe enjoy equal billing? Will the cafe's name be in the same font and size as the new name where written? I don't know but I doubt it.Who is he appeasing? Appeasement is not something that people who are being PC usually engage in. If you're changing the name of a place for PC reasons you don't then appease others by putting the name back, even if it is in smaller font on a different part of the building. That makes absolutely no sense from a PC perspective.

Perhaps any forum members who live near the place might be able to confirm my assertion?

I simply cannot see any gain for name change. I cannot see that it will drive more customers to the centre. It's a local community centre used by local people.This name change is being sneaked in under a different guise. Bear in mind that in 2004 the Very Rev Morris went on record about the name being offensive to Muslims.I also can see no reason for the name change, but that in itself doesn't make it PC. All I can say is, if he's done it to be PC then he's made a complete pigs ear of it, because he's gone on record as saying that the name is still being used for the cafe, so if he really does think the name insults muslims, he's managed to directly insulting muslims himself!

[SusanB-M1]

Not even 1 in 4 sets of twins is male/male (or female/female)? ;)
How about 1 in 4 edges of a door is hinged? I suppose that's more fact than stat.
:):)

[bluesjnr]

Woollery, I tried to deflect you from your argument from authority (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority") but it seems you are intent on it. It's clear that you feel you're the more qualified. To "quote" you :rolleyes:

As I have said the whole matter is subjective in my opinion and I will always see it as a PC decision, albeit not one of the more restrictive or crazy ones previously quoted by your good self.

Whaddaya say we agree to differ and stop taking up space here?

Alternatively you could just admit I'm right.

:D

[Jontg]

So even if Islam is becoming as virulent as Christianity, why is this a big deal? The only difference is in the eyes of the infected themselves--and they want to kill each other, why stop them? If they didn't have other strains to fight, they'd turn their sights on the uninfected.

[Southwind17]

So even if Islam is becoming as virulent as Christianity, why is this a big deal? The only difference is in the eyes of the infected themselves--and they want to kill each other, why stop them? If they didn't have other strains to fight, they'd turn their sights on the uninfected.
So innocent, peace-loving (uninfected) people are not getting killed then? :rolleyes:

[wollery]

Woollery, I tried to deflect you from your argument from authority (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority") but it seems you are intent on it. It's clear that you feel you're the more qualified. To "quote" you :rolleyes:I did say it would sound condescending, and it is indeed an argument from authority, something I am usually loath to make, but in this case, in my experience, it is true that the vast majority of people who did not grow up as victims (and I use that word intentionally) of the loony left PC brigade have a very different view of what is and isn't PC. I guess when you've been exposed the extremes the more mundane stuff seems pale.

As I have said the whole matter is subjective in my opinion and I will always see it as a PC decision, albeit not one of the more restrictive or crazy ones previously quoted by your good self.I guess what I'm really saying is that, assuming it was a PC decision, on a scale of PCness (ooh, neologism) with the worst excesses rating a 10, this barely makes the needle move off zero. In Brent in the 1980s this decision wouldn't have raised an eyebrow, much less a fuss.

Whaddaya say we agree to differ and stop taking up space here?If there were no differences of opinion then no space would ever be taken up in here at all. Makes the world interesting.

Alternatively you could just admit I'm right.

:DI admit that you're right. About something. ;)

I wrote the above ages ago, and got interrupted and had to run an errand before I posted. While I was running the errand I was thinking about this and realized that I've been expressing myself completely wrongly about all this. The decision may have been made for PC reasons, but that's not why people are angry. They're angry because a well known local landmark has been renamed for no apparent good reason. They're angry because nobody asked their opinion.

I read stories like this and the comments like, "It's political correctness gone mad!" and my reaction is, "You ****! You have no *********** idea!" And they don't. "PC gone mad" has a direct and tangible effect on your life. It makes you nervous and paranoid, scared that you'll say or do the wrong thing. It gets 5 year old children in trouble for doing things that don't actually offend anyone. It scares the living crap out of teachers.

This decision has no real impact on anyone's life. People will continue to call it the Saracen's head.

At this point I'd like to recount a true story. In the late 1980s my father took me to watch Queen's Park Rangers play football every other week (well, every home game). During that time the club tried to rebrand, and where previously every reference to the team had been "Rangers" or QPR they instead used "The Superhoops" (QPR wear a kit with horizontal blue and white stripes). I never heard anyone else use the term, not the fans, not the media, not the players, not the management, just the club bigwigs and the official matchday program. After a few years they just stopped trying and went back to just being Rangers or QPR.

If the locals refuse to use the new name, and even go so far as to use the old name in any printed document, then sooner or later the name will be changed back, probably when a new vicar comes to town.

In the meantime, stop labelling every decision you don't like as PC. Complain because you don't like the decision, by all means, but the "PC gone mad" label has just become an easy to use catch all for "righteous indignation". And it makes me spitting mad, because my life was affected, in ways you'll never understand, by PC that truly was gone mad.

[Southwind17]

In the late 1980s my father took me to watch Queen's Park Rangers play football every other week (well, every home game).
What else? Not "away" - surely! Sorry - couldn't resist. ;)

[Hux]

QPR? That's child abuse.

[Southwind17]

QPR? That's child abuse.
Masochists are capable of just about anything! ;)

[Jontg]

So innocent, peace-loving (uninfected) people are not getting killed then? :rolleyes:

By "uninfected," I meant non-religious people--but you do raise a good point, and one I have to concede to you. Just because you're a vector doesn't mean you're displaying any overt symptoms, and thus there are plenty of infected in the modern world who don't pose any immediate danger to themselves or others--in fact, some strains are characterized by the extreme pacifism of the infected, which makes them less of a danger than some uninfected I've met. They're still a memetic hazard, in that they could pass on their beliefs to future generations, but only a tiny plurality of those will regress to extremism, and some may deconvert entirely. With that in mind, you're right--they're innocent in this, and it's not fair to abandon them to the crazies just because they might be an annoyance in the future. I'm sorry for discarding human lives like that--I should be a better person than that.

[GreNME]

I have a huge and almost irrational hatred of anything that even smells of PC. And this just doesn't smell PC to me. Sorry.

Oh, I would posit that there's no "almost" about it.

[Polaris]

But most Muslims are not Arab.

And yet many (if not most) Muslims learn the Quran in Arabic as children, whether they speak it or not.

[Polaris]

I'm happy to admit to my prejudices. I'm aware how they are viewed by many but not all. I wouldn't call myself an extremist and having shared a flat with a Muslim for 2 years I would say that I'm less prejudiced than ALL of the Muslims that I have met. I did not introduce the PC argument so it's not my strawman. It's in the articles linked and therefore can be debated whilst ignoring your generalisation.

Wait...

You might want to qualify that a little better. It sounds like you're saying you're less prejudiced than all the Muslims you've met because they wouldn't share a flat with a non-Muslim. And your proof is you shared a flat with a Muslim for two years.

[bluesjnr]

Wait...

You might want to qualify that a little better. It sounds like you're saying you're less prejudiced than all the Muslims you've met because they wouldn't share a flat with a non-Muslim. And your proof is you shared a flat with a Muslim for two years.


I really cannot understand how you can take that from my statement! Did anybody else?

In order for clarity and to "qualify". I shared a flat for 2 years with a Muslim. He was male. I don't consider that pertinent but it does aid clarity don't you think? Prior to that time of flat sharage and indeed during and also after, I have had the pleasure of meeting many Muslim people. I met most of the Muslim people I ever did meet during the time that I shared the flat with the Muslim gentleman mentioned earlier as you might correctly surmise. As befits general interaction with society which, for the purpose of this missive, includes the friends, relations and associates of my flat mate, I naturally found myself indulging in conversations (not exclusively regarding religion nor any non-specific prejudices) with the aforementioned Muslim people during the previously (but not limited to) specified time period. I found, without exception, that I was less prejudiced in those areas (where we shared a prejudice) than those Muslim people I spoke with. I also found that, overall, I had less prejudices than they (they being the previously described Muslim individuals from a variety of sources relevant to my flat mate and myself) did.

Jings! You guys can be hard going at times!

:mgduh

[wollery]

I really cannot understand how you can take that from my statement! Did anybody else?Nope, I too am befuddled.

[maddog]

Since I'm given the choice, I'll take a non-practicing Muslim over an Arab, any day of the week.

[Dancing David]

And yet many (if not most) Muslims learn the Quran in Arabic as children, whether they speak it or not.

And 25% of the people in world speak english as a second language, yet they are not English.

[Southwind17]

And 25% of the people in world speak english as a second language, yet they are not English.
I think you'll find the motives and resultant influences somewhat different, to say the least.

[godless dave]

And yet many (if not most) Muslims learn the Quran in Arabic as children, whether they speak it or not.

And 100% of Catholic clergy, monks, and nuns learn Latin.

Founders of Islam - Arabic speaking

Founders of Christianity - Greek speaking, in an empire that was split into Latin-speaking and Greek-speaking sections.

[Polaris]

And 100% of Catholic clergy, monks, and nuns learn Latin.

Founders of Islam - Arabic speaking

Founders of Christianity - Greek speaking, in an empire that was split into Latin-speaking and Greek-speaking sections.

And yet none of this does any good if children are taught the Bible in Latin or Greek if they don't speak Latin or Greek.