9/11 conspiracy theorists contradictions

[Luntoc]

Griffin wrote a book about 9/11 contradictions. However, I'm sure the movement has several contradictions of their own. So what are some of their very own contradictions?

[jhunter1163]

WTC buildings collapse neatly into their own footprint = proof of explosives = CD.
WTC building debris hurled 600 feet outside building footprint = proof of explosives = CD.

So the buildings collapsed into their own footprints, except for the parts that didn't, and all of which proves INSIDE JOBBY JOBZOMG!!!11!!!!1!!1

[~enigma~]

Griffin wrote a book about 9/11 contradictions. However, I'm sure the movement has several contradictions of their own. So what are some of their very own contradictions?
intelligence...

[Pardalis]

Red Ibis.

[R.Mackey]

My personal favorite is how they complain that "NIST never recovered any steel that exceeded 250oC" (which is wrong, but you get the idea)...

... and then turn around and propose that thermites weakened or melted the steel supports, which would require temperatures far higher than 250oC.

Likewise, thermites were first proposed in part because, as we all know, there would have been sounds of explosives, but thermite is relatively quite. However, they're still trying as hard as they can to either make their mythical thermite into an explosive, or claim it was used to trigger explosives, thus negating any advantage their idea might have had.

Richard Gage actually tried to merge these two contradictory ideas in a single sentence once, during a recorded debate with Ron Craig, as I reported in my paper on Irreducible Delusion (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=118389). Hilarity ensued.

[Algebra34]

I got some debunker contradictions going on over in the thread addressed to me right now.

a) The cleanup was so meticulous that any evidence of explosives would have been found even though no one was looking for such evidence.

b) The building collapse destruction was so devastating that blackboxes and over a thousand victims could never be found when this is exactly what the rescuers were looking for.

[apathoid]

I got some debunker contradictions going on over in the thread addressed to me right now.

a) The cleanup was so meticulous that any evidence of explosives would have been found even though no one was looking for such evidence.

b) The building collapse destruction was so devastating that blackboxes and over a thousand victims could never be found when this is exactly what the rescuers were looking for.


That's not a contradiction. It's a matter of material properties and physics. Not everything was turned into white powder.

[MikeW]

over a thousand victims could never be found when this is exactly what the rescuers were looking for.
How many remains have been found but not identified?

[Hokulele]

So what are some of their very own contradictions?


The towers fell too fast, so it must have been a CD.
The towers fell too slowly, so it must have been a CD.

Of course, none of them will tell you how fast the towers should have fallen.

[Algebra34]

How many remains have been found but not identified?

I don't know. Many I would guess. I don't know how old this is.

nearly 2,800 victims
fewer than 300 whole bodies found
fewer than 1,600 victims identified
over 1,100 victims remain unidentified
over 800 victims identified by DNA alone
nearly 20,000 pieces of bodies found
over 6,000 pieces small enough to fit in test-tubes
over 200 pieces matched to single person
nearly 10,000 unidentified pieces frozen for future analysis

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/bodies.html

The number of people believed to have been killed in the World Trade Center attack hovers around 2,780, three years after the attack. No trace has been identified for about half the victims, despite the use of advanced DNA techniques to identify individuals.

[BigAl]

I don't know. Many I would guess. I don't know how old this is.

nearly 2,800 victims
fewer than 300 whole bodies found
fewer than 1,600 victims identified
over 1,100 victims remain unidentified
over 800 victims identified by DNA alone
nearly 20,000 pieces of bodies found
over 6,000 pieces small enough to fit in test-tubes
over 200 pieces matched to single person
nearly 10,000 unidentified pieces frozen for future analysis

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/bodies.html

The above appears to be last updated in 2006. Lots of work has been done since. The numbers are very old.

[Algebra34]

The above appears to be last updated in 2006. Lots of work has been done since.

Got an update? I know there were some remains found in a manhole and on top of a building. How meticulous.

[twinstead]

I don't know. Many I would guess. I don't know how old this is.


And what, in your expert opinion of course, does this prove?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

9/11 was a massive operation to falsify a justification for a war against Iraq... but none of the fake hijackers were from Iraq.

They planted millions of pounds of explosives in the WTC but not so much as a thimble full of nerve gas in Iraq.

It was an inside job by the US government, but a dozen foreign governments tried to warn the US that they were about to attack themselves.

These same foreign governments were willing to let the Americans know that they had sources placed deeply inside Americas secret operations commands.

They can launch these huge massive conspiracies to create fake reasons for wars in foreign countries just to steal oil from the other side of the planet, but they can't conspire to take what they already rightfully own in frakking UTAH! (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/09/science/earth/09leases.html?_r=2&ref=instapundit)

[Sledge]

Likewise, thermites were first proposed in part because, as we all know, there would have been sounds of explosives, but thermite is relatively quite. However, they're still trying as hard as they can to either make their mythical thermite into an explosive, or claim it was used to trigger explosives, thus negating any advantage their idea might have had.

Was watching Mythbusters today, and they found that thermite exploded when it was in a steel container on top of blocks of ice. So all the truth movement has to prove now is the presence of steel buckets and 10 pound blocks of ice.

[Sam.I.Am]

Was watching Mythbusters today, and they found that thermite exploded when it was in a steel container on top of blocks of ice. So all the truth movement has to prove now is the presence of steel buckets and 10 pound blocks of ice.

It was the ice that exploded (steam explosion) caused by being so rapidly heated.

[R.Mackey]

We talked about that in the Science forum. The thermite-ice explosion is interesting. I still believe it is caused by hydrogen generation as the molten iron contacts the ice, but we really don't know what caused that.

The Truth Movement, alas, is not off the hook even if huge slabs of ice existed... What they need are silent explosives. There is no such thing, period.

[BigAl]

Got an update? I know there were some remains found in a manhole and on top of a building. How meticulous.

Birds, rats and Twoofers have no respect for the victims of 9/11.

[Sledge]

We talked about that in the Science forum. The thermite-ice explosion is interesting. I still believe it is caused by hydrogen generation as the molten iron contacts the ice, but we really don't know what caused that.

The Truth Movement, alas, is not off the hook even if huge slabs of ice existed... What they need are silent explosives. There is no such thing, period.

So what they're looking for are buckets of thermite sitting on blocks of ice attached to the girders, then all placed in a soundproof container. Then all of this has to be planted in the buildings in sufficient quantities to bring them down. All of this is done without anyone noticing. Sounds plausible enough.:boggled:

Good grief, do any of these people ever actually think through the ramifications of what they're saying? To me, the biggest conspiracy theory contradiction is calling anything they've got a theory. It's just a bundle of disjointed, often contradictory, misapprehensions and paranoia.

[Furcifer]

To me, the biggest conspiracy theory contradiction is calling anything they've got a theory. It's just a bundle of disjointed, often contradictory, misapprehensions and paranoia.

Seconded. The whole "theory" is based on making unsupported contradictory statements to anything and everything having to do with 9/11. They're really only willing to get on the same page with the date.

[Carlos]

WTC7 colapse was a classic controlled demolition.

No loud explosion was heard because it was not a conventional controlled demolition

[Brainache]

I had one Truther point to the CIA secret OS torture prisons as an example of how large numbers of people can keep nasty things secret indefinitely. When I pointed out that they weren't exactly secret anymore because we were hearing about them on the TV News after someone blew the whistle, he just told me to shut-up and wandered off muttering about how I was a sheep or something...

[R.Mackey]

Good grief, do any of these people ever actually think through the ramifications of what they're saying? To me, the biggest conspiracy theory contradiction is calling anything they've got a theory. It's just a bundle of disjointed, often contradictory, misapprehensions and paranoia.

Not a single one ever has. That's why, to this day, no single Truther has proposed even a faintly plausible hypothesis.

This is also all you need to know to dismiss the Truth Movement entirely.

[defaultdotxbe]

only a handful of people would be needed to engineer the attacks, but anyone who disagrees with them are shills

similarly, any experts who support the "official story" must have been paid off, yet truthers themselves can never be bought

[portlandatheist]

Bush is an idiot
Bush is an evil genius mastermind

[Grizzly Bear]

My personal favorite is how they complain that "NIST never recovered any steel that exceeded 250oC" (which is wrong, but you get the idea)...

... and then turn around and propose that thermites weakened or melted the steel supports, which would require temperatures far higher than 250oC.
<Snip brevity>
Richard Gage actually tried to merge these two contradictory ideas in a single sentence once, during a recorded debate with Ron Craig, as I reported in my paper on Irreducible Delusion (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=118389). Hilarity ensued.

I don't know exactly to what extent the oddity ensues but I'm rather amused that TS is arguing that there was no deceleration in the collapse of the towers to justify the lack of an impact load, yet says that there was roughly a 0.3 G deceleration in the overall collapse.


We talked about that in the Science forum. The thermite-ice explosion is interesting. I still believe it is caused by hydrogen generation as the molten iron contacts the ice, but we really don't know what caused that.

The Truth Movement, alas, is not off the hook even if huge slabs of ice existed... What they need are silent explosives. There is no such thing, period.

I brought this up some time ago in the general CT discussion thread as a parody some time ago... I thought that episode was funny and intriguing myself... But clearly not suited for a CT theory...

[Cl1mh4224rd]

So what are some of their very own contradictions?


Their movement's name.
Their actions.

[Pardalis]

They say they want justice and evidence admissible in a court of law.

They dismiss offhand the Moussaoui trial and its evidence.

[joe911]

The worst one imo is;
We are doing it for the victims+ the victims dont exist,they were made up by a simulation program.*

[*yes,there are a group of people who really beleive that]

[Seymour Butz]

I don't know.


If only twoofs would admit this about every aspect of 9/11.

[pgimeno]

They say they want justice and evidence admissible in a court of law.

They dismiss offhand the Moussaoui trial and its evidence.

Good point, which proves that any new investigation is doomed in advance.

[Dave Rogers]

Several witnesses claim they saw flight 77 pass north of the Citgo station, therefore their testimony must be considered reliable because it's multiply corroborated. Over a hundred witnesses claim they saw flight 77 hit the Pentagon, but this multiply corroborated testimony can be discarded because... er... Aldo, help me out here, can you?

Dave

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I don't know. Many I would guess. I don't know how old this is.

nearly 2,800 victims
fewer than 300 whole bodies found
fewer than 1,600 victims identified
over 1,100 victims remain unidentified
over 800 victims identified by DNA alone
nearly 20,000 pieces of bodies found
over 6,000 pieces small enough to fit in test-tubes
over 200 pieces matched to single person
nearly 10,000 unidentified pieces frozen for future analysis

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/bodies.html

You linked to a 9/11 conspiracy site.

Do you have an accurate source for that information?

[pgimeno]

They undermine the credibility of the Commission, NIST, FEMA... yet take their statements as absolute truths when they confirm their point, e.g. the 10 second WTC2 collapse time or the erosion of the metal.

However that is questionable as a contradiction. I admit myself using parts of the material in 911research or 911review while criticizing other parts.

But, curiously enough, they often dismiss without reason the data of other 9/11 deniers when it doesn't match their beliefs (e.g. the plane in the Pentagon which Hoffman admits as true), and that is at least an 'inter-contradiction' so to say.

And there are so many of these. Each of them has an idea on how things were done, which is, of course, the only valid one, even if it contradicts well-known facts (noiseless explosions of cutting charges during fall, for example). And don't let me started with no-planers...

[funk de fino]

I got some debunker contradictions going on over in the thread addressed to me right now.

a) The cleanup was so meticulous that any evidence of explosives would have been found even though no one was looking for such evidence.

You do not know what they were looking for. You do not know what the forensic investigators who inspected the steel were looking for. You do not know what the demo teams were looking for when they were handling and inspecting the steel. You could find out but you won't.

You maybe know what NIST did not test for but that is different.

[nagasama]

how about that people that dont buy their crap are sheep because they "just cant accept that the gubmint wold do such a thing".
while they themselves dont buy what happened because they just cant accept that there are people who would do this kind of thing out of malice.

:hit:
"TROOT?!? You cant haaaaandle the troot!"

[firecoins]

The US government could place WMDs in 3 office buildings filled with people in the most populated city in the US without anyone noticing but not in an empty desert in Iraq.

[JAStewart]

Here's an assorted list of Truth Beliefs and the seeming contradiction.

1. A missile hit the Pentagon. Light poles were plucked out of the ground close to the Pentagon.

For these two statements to be true: Prior to striking the Pentagon, the missile pinballed off 5 different light poles without detonating.

2. A missile hit the Pentagon. There was a small amount of airplane debris found on the yard of the Pentagon.

For these two statements to be true: milliseconds after the Pentagon was struck, lightning-quick, possibly invisible gnomes ran around the yard and dispersed random chunks of airplane wreckage.

3. Damning evidence of there being charges inside the towers is the numerous reports of explosions.

Inconsistency: no such claim is made about WTC 7.

4. NORAD stood down and didn't intercept any of the hijacked jets.

"Flight 93 was shot down."

5. NORAD stood down.

"NORAD had numerous test missions scheduled for that day."

6. The towers fell neatly within their own footprints.

The south tower ejected just enough material to minorly damage WTC7 and justify it's controlled demolition.

7. Damning evidence of there being charges inside the towers is the numerous reports of explosions. Thermite/ate reactions were used to weaken the steel beams, as confirmed by Steven Jones.

Thermite/ate is not an explosive and does not sound like one.

8. Rumsfeld/Willie Brown/Pentagon officials stopped flying commercially before 9/11

Surely Rumsfeld would know which flights were sceduled to be hijacked and would not book a ticket on them. They would know no flights out of San Francisco were part of the operation.

9. The janitor in the basement of the WTC reported explosions (attributed to a bomb) in the basement of the building.

The buildings were destroyed top-down; why bother planting 'extra' explosives that would not have been needed to bring down the towers?

10. 9/11 enabled the US to invade Afghanistan so they could build a pipeline. Al Qaeda and the Taliban are puppets of the CIA/ISI.

Why do you need to invade land that is totally controlled by your puppets?

[defaultdotxbe]

2. A missile hit the Pentagon. There was a small amount of airplane debris found on the yard of the Pentagon.

For these two statements to be true: milliseconds after the Pentagon was struck, lightning-quick, possibly invisible gnomes ran around the yard and dispersed random chunks of airplane wreckage.
false dichotomy, you ignore the possibility of an invisible bigfoot in the governments employ


and fairies, dont forget the fairies

[TruthersLie]

why is it you folks keep missing the obvious.
MOTHRA.

[JAStewart]

See here for David Ray Griffin's 25 contradictions:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=116298

[JAStewart]

Here's the original thread from which I took my list of ten:

9/11 Conspiracy Contradictions and Inconsistancies (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=62313)

Someone needs to make this into a proper list you know.

[HereticHulk]

My personal favorite is how they complain that "NIST never recovered any steel that exceeded 250oC" (which is wrong, but you get the idea)...

Have any of the debris/steel that were collected as evidence by either NIST or another agency ever been released and given to a 3rd party and subject to independent testing to verify NIST's conclusions?

[stateofgrace]

NORAD stood down.

Flight 93 was shot down.

[R.Mackey]

Have any of the debris/steel that were collected as evidence by either NIST or another agency ever been released and given to a 3rd party and subject to independent testing to verify NIST's conclusions?

NIST collected nothing. The site was cleared before they were even authorized to work on the report. All the pieces they had, they inherited from other studies.

But to answer your question, even using the strictest sense of "third party," yes. You'd know this if you'd read NIST. See NCSTAR1-3C, Appendix F for one such example. Or talk to Dr. Astaneh-asl at Cal, or Dr. Barnett at WPI.

Further discussion is, I believe, off topic for this thead.

[Orphia Nay]

Bump!

"The US Government ignored warnings of an imminent attack."

"The US Government orchestrated 9/11".

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=156886

[9/11 Chewy Defense]

NORAD stood down.

Flight 93 was shot down.

I live 20 miles from Shanksville, PA (Johnstown, PA) & I'll tell ya 1 thing those Truthers really don't get about Flight 93:

Johnstown Airport (John Murtha Airport) only has Apache Helicopters, not jet fighters. So how in the hell can it be "shot down" when a helicopter, alone, can't keep up with an aircraft moving 4 times faster?

It's F*%^&^g impossible!

[UNLoVedRebel]

This thread is a good reminder. Of the many things debunkers do better than truthers, one of them - and perhaps the most important - is knowing when to STFU.

[triforcharity]

Have any of the debris/steel that were collected as evidence by either NIST or another agency ever been released and given to a 3rd party and subject to independent testing to verify NIST's conclusions?


They don't belong to NYC, they belong to Silverstein. Ask him.

[Gamolon]

Here's a good one. This is a picture annotated by Terral. Notice that he points out that there is no melting or burn marks on the steel columns/beams which shows that there is no evidence of fires weakening/melting the steel

Yet notice in the same photo, he claims that the columns, beams, and girders were cut by thermite! Hmmmm. Must have been that new and improved thermite. Now with less melting and no burn marks!!!

Now THAT'S is a contradiction.

:D

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff290/gamolon/b7_3.jpg

[cisco]

I got some debunker contradictions going on over in the thread addressed to me right now.

a) The cleanup was so meticulous that any evidence of explosives would have been found even though no one was looking for such evidence.

b) The building collapse destruction was so devastating that blackboxes and over a thousand victims could never be found when this is exactly what the rescuers were looking for.

Are you able to comprehend the difference between a black box the size of the box your Air Jordans came in and literally MILES of detonation cord? I am asking you a serious question. Answer me.

Say you work at a restaurant and you have to sweep the floor at night. One of your co-workers lost a contact lens and an extension cord. You find the extension cord almost immediately, but despite your best efforts and polishing the floor to a shine, you never find the contact lens. Is this evidence of a coverup? Is this a contradiction?