Did the polio vaccination cause AIDS?

[zaphod2016]

I haven't seen this one before.

Did a Polio Vaccine Cause AIDS? (http://www.chiroweb.com/mpacms/dc/article.php?id=31540)

Polio vaccines and the origin of AIDS: some key writings (http://www.uow.edu.au/~bmartin/dissent/documents/AIDS/)

Calling all skeptics. I need some backup.

Fun fact: the ole' "what about Polio?" line isn't shutting them up anymore.

[dropzone]

No.

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OPV_AIDS_hypothesis) (because I'm too lazy to follow its link so I could pretend I didn't consult Wikipedia): Data from molecular biology and phylogenetic studies contradict the OPV AIDS hypothesis; consequently, scientific consensus regards the hypothesis as disproven,[3][4][5][6] with an article in the journal Nature describing the hypothesis as "refuted".[7]

[zaphod2016]

No.

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OPV_AIDS_hypothesis) (because I'm too lazy to follow its link so I could pretend I didn't consult Wikipedia):

Ahh, cold hard science.

Praise science!

Thanks.

[dropzone]

Always a pleasure, especially since a dose from the Sabin vaccine coulda innoculated me with the AIDS. :eek:

[zaphod2016]

On closer inspection, some of the sources are not online. Specifically:

Berry N, Davis C, Jenkins A, Wood D, Minor P, Schild G, Bottiger M, Holmes H, Almond N (2001). "Vaccine safety. Analysis of oral polio vaccine CHAT stocks". Nature 410 (6832): 1046–7.

Forgive a rube question- does this mean "Nature" magazine, issue 410, pp 1046?

[dropzone]

I'm similarly rube-ish, but I think yer right. (hillbilly ;) , though you need to imagine the missing teeth)

[zaphod2016]

Even without checking the original Nature article, I am confident in calling this "debunked".

My article here (http://zaphodforpresident.com/2009/10/11/did-a-polio-vaccine-cause-aids/)

Not trying to plug; just in case anyone comes across this and wants more info.

[Rolfe]

Tis is kind of the wrong forum to get the goods on this one. It's been discussed in the Science and Medicine forum in some detail, and that's where the relevant experts hang out.

I was interested because a colleague of mine was very knowledgeable about the whole business, having worked on the polio vaccine himself. He genuinely believed at one time that either the polio or the measles vaccines might have been the vector, and delivered a number of lectures to learned societies outlining his theory/suggestion. I sat throught it twice, and it was indeed very interesting and asked some serious questions.

However, more recently, evidence and research data have become available that discount the possibility. Capsid sent me a PM about some of it, and has posted quite extensively about it. Capsid is your man, if you want the real deal on this.

Rolfe.

[volatile]

I'd heard the polio story before - interesting to see it's been discredited. Anyone know what the current consensus hypothesis of the origins of the HIV virus is?

[Travis]

I'd heard the polio story before - interesting to see it's been discredited. Anyone know what the current consensus hypothesis of the origins of the HIV virus is?

I read a while back that it was thought to be from eating uncooked monkey's. I'm not sure how effective a vector of transmission that would actually be though. Perhaps a hunter was wounded by a monkey that was also wounded (and infected) and that allowed it to happen?

[defaultdotxbe]

I read a while back that it was thought to be from eating uncooked monkey's. I'm not sure how effective a vector of transmission that would actually be though. Perhaps a hunter was wounded by a monkey that was also wounded (and infected) and that allowed it to happen?
i think the current most accepted theory is while butchering a monkey the blood got into a cut on the hunter, or something similar to that

[volatile]

But it's definitely "from monkeys", more or less?

[defaultdotxbe]

yeah, in fact even the "from polio vaccine" theory seems to agree with this, saying the vaccine was made from the kidneys of infected chimps

[Rolfe]

As far as I understand it the vaccine was in fact made from tissue from vervet monkeys. That was why my colleague originally thought it might be related to HIV - because early reports of HIV suggested vervet monkeys were the carrier species.

This was the cause of the misunderstanding beetween me and Capsid on this matter, because he kept saying, but dammit, the vaccine was made from vervet monkeys, and I kept saying, yes I know, wasn't that the point? He was expecting the more common (to him) misconception, the the vaccine used chimp cells.

PM Capsid or something. He has all the details. Or better still, move this thread to the Science and Medicine section.

Rolfe.

[zaphod2016]

move this thread to the Science and Medicine section

Seconded, and my apologies for once again mis-posting here. I'm attracted to the CT sub-forum like a moth to light for some reason.

[Capsid]

But it's definitely "from monkeys", more or less?No it's from apes (gorillas and chimps). SIV from monkeys can infect humans (in rare conditions) but doesn't cause disease.

HIV is very closley related to the virus that infects chimpanzees (SIVcpz). Work by Beatrice Hahn (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16728595?ordinalpos=130&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum) has really nailed this. Her group did some sterling work in collecting chimp poo in the wild and were able to recover SIVcpz DNA sequences which are very close to that of HIV.

[Capsid]

As far as I understand it the vaccine was in fact made from tissue from vervet monkeys. That was why my colleague originally thought it might be related to HIV - because early reports of HIV suggested vervet monkeys were the carrier species.

This was the cause of the misunderstanding beetween me and Capsid on this matter, because he kept saying, but dammit, the vaccine was made from vervet monkeys, and I kept saying, yes I know, wasn't that the point? He was expecting the more common (to him) misconception, the the vaccine used chimp cells.

PM Capsid or something. He has all the details. Or better still, move this thread to the Science and Medicine section.

Rolfe.The papers by Berry et al, cited by zaphod2016 say it all. It's conclusive that there is no chimp DNA in the original polio stocks used at that time but there is macaque DNA. Yes, the original stocks have been archived in liquid nitrogen.

[casebro]

So then, did any other medicine use Macaque tissues? Or any species with the right SIV?

Though I think there is no need for another smoking gun, the wild-monkey-to-hunter is good enough. Wasn't AIDS first noted in native Africans?

[Capsid]

So then, did any other medicine use Macaque tissues? Or any species with the right SIV?I'm not sure about other medicines, but only chimps have the right SIV. So we should only be concerned about chimp tissues in relation to the source of HIV.

Though I think there is no need for another smoking gun, the wild-monkey-to-hunter is good enough. Wasn't AIDS first noted in native Africans?Yes, it was called slim disease.

[riptowtan]

And the virus has been around for about 100 years which eliminates the possibility of it being a virus created by the military.

http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2008/10/study_traces_ai.php

[Rolfe]

Yes, the misconception I got from my colleague was....

HIV's natural reservoir is in the vervet monkey
Polio vaccine used vervet monkey tissues
Ergo....

The error there is in point 1. I understand that others have made the opposite error, correctly noting that the natural reservoir of HIV is in the chimp, but then erroneously assuming polio vaccine was made using chimp tissues. In reality....

HIV's natural reservoir is in the chimp
Polio vaccine used vervet monkey tissues
Nothing to see here folks....

Rolfe.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Amazing how 20 year old myths just keep making the rounds.

[NWO Sentryman]

well, the mitrokhin archive debunks the :rule10: surrounding Aids is manmade CTs

[HeyLeroy]

Amazing how 20 year old myths just keep making the rounds.

Indeed. (http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1675423,00.html)

[Toke]

Nice animation Rolfe. :)

(And post)

[Estellea]

I'm plagiarizing myself (if that can be done):

What really happened is that an oral polio vax scientist from Lederle left with his live strains and through a series of events, went to Congo and began trials with his live polio vax in 1958, then onto Poland, Switzerland and Croatia. A moron British journalist, Edward Hopper (who went on to publish The River) charged the scientist with using SIV-infected monkey kidney tissue, which mutated to become HIV. Tests of the vaccine demonstrated that there was neither any HIV/SIV nor even monkey DNA in the vaccine.

The next part of this is during the development of the killed, injectable polio vax. SV-40, a monkey virus found in vervets (African Green Monkeys) that were used for tissue culture for the vaccine development and subsequently contaminated millions of inactivated polio vaccines. A renowned vaccine scientist made a rather bad joke to a medical historian that he, "didn't realise I was bringing AIDS into the United States". And thus became part of the basis for that dumb theory. Not a bit of it is true or accurate, pure urban legend.

[Rolfe]

I recognise part of that. My colleague's PhD thesis was about the SV-40 bit. I think he discovered it (not de novo, but that it was in every batch if you used the right isolation methods).

Rolfe.

[Eos of the Eons]

Uhhh, did someone confuse SV-40 with HIV or think it could mutate into HIV or something??

[Peter i]

Uhhh, did someone confuse SV-40 with HIV or think it could mutate into HIV or something??

For the layman a virus is a virus is a virus...

SV-40 was found in the vaccine and originated from monkeys. HIV originated from monkeys.

Ergo: HIV originated from polio vaccine.

:dig:

[Capsid]

Tests of the vaccine demonstrated that there was neither any HIV/SIV nor even monkey DNA in the vaccine.
Well, there was macaque DNA in the vaccine, the polio virus had to be cultured on a cell substrate of some sort. The macaques used were either Rhesus or Chinese macaques. I presume the confusion with vervet monkeys arose when they were later used to propagate the virus for IPV development using a cell line derived from them called Vero cells.

[Capsid]

For the layman a virus is a virus is a virus...

SV-40 was found in the vaccine and originated from monkeys. HIV originated from monkeys.

Ergo: HIV originated from polio vaccine.

:dig:Can I make small but important correction. HIV came from apes (chimps/gorillas infected with SIVcpz), chimps got infected by SIV from vervets.

[Estellea]

Well, there was macaque DNA in the vaccine, the polio virus had to be cultured on a cell substrate of some sort. The macaques used were either Rhesus or Chinese macaques. I presume the confusion with vervet monkeys arose when they were later used to propagate the virus for IPV development using a cell line derived from them called Vero cells.Yes Capsid, there was undoubtedly DNA fragments from the cell culture. I should have qualified it better. I believe that chimp and/or ape DNA was looked for and not found. I should verify that however.

[Capsid]

Yes Capsid, there was undoubtedly DNA fragments from the cell culture. I should have qualified it better. I believe that chimp and/or ape DNA was looked for and not found. I should verify that however.Trust me I know. I have it from the horse's mouth.