School Policies

[lightfire22000]

Schools are now really taking the necessary precautions to handle dangerous kids. Good thing this elementary school took care of this 6 year old who brought a cub scout knife to school. I can't believe he'll only face 45 days in reform school for breaking a rule he couldn't understand or even read.

Seriously, have you ever met a six year old who could define the word "policy"?

If anybody is at fault, it's the teacher for not explaining the rules.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/12/education/12discipline.html?no_interstitial

[Bob Blaylock]

From the age of about ten years or so, I have very rarely left my home without at least one pocketknife on my person. To me, it's an indispensable tool, without which I have a very difficult time imagining being able to function.

I can understand policies against carrying things in some places that are openly intended to be used as weapons, but I just do not see a pocketknife as falling in that category. How long before students aren't even allowed to have sharpened pencils? Or forks with which to eat their lunch?

[Lothian]

Seriously, have you ever met a six year old who could define the word "policy"?

I have met many 6 year olds that lose their temper and lash out.

[cbish]

If anybody is at fault, it's the teacher for not explaining the rules.WTF?!?

[paximperium]

I have met many 6 year olds that lose their temper and lash out.
I have met a 6 year old who was permanently in therapy for attacking other children and killing little animals.

[paximperium]

WTF?!?
It's lightfire's anti-formal education nonsense. It's always the teachers/schools/professor/university/the man's fault and never anyone else.

[Toke]

I leave my pocketknife at home when heading to the airport, I have another in the other end. It feels strange to be without one.
(It's just a small swiss one with a corkscrew)
I have carried some pocket knife or other for as long as I can remember.

I think the problem here is a set of rules with no room for thinking on the part of the school.
Guess zero tolerance is in facion.

[paximperium]

I think the problem here is a set of rules with no room for thinking on the part of the school.
Guess zero tolerance is in facion.
Unfortunately that is the case. The article clearly discusses the silliness of this zero-tolerance policy and many school districts are trying to figure out how to handle it.

[Toke]

Unfortunately that is the case. The article clearly discusses the silliness of this zero-tolerance policy and many school districts are trying to figure out how to handle it.

Yes, and we have our own version here with carrying pocket knifes of more than 7cm.
It includes box cutters and gives a minimum of 3000 Kr fine plus 7 days jail.

The best/most entertaining solution I can think of is for the police to keep a close watch on politicians and their closest family and try catch them.

[Xulld]

Right I agree, I remember getting into trouble for the same exact thing, only more then 20 years ago. I remember getting into trouble, as in dont do that again ect, but not being sent to any kind of reform school for forgetting to leave it at home.

[Careyp74]

I leave my pocketknife at home when heading to the airport, I have another in the other end. It feels strange to be without one.
(It's just a small swiss one with a corkscrew)
I have carried some pocket knife or other for as long as I can remember.

I think the problem here is a set of rules with no room for thinking on the part of the school.
Guess zero tolerance is in facion.

Oh, sorry, I was at LAX and found the one you put in that bush, You'll have to replace it.

I like this part of the article:

"The law was introduced after a third-grade girl was expelled for a year because her grandmother had sent a birthday cake to school, along with a knife to cut it. The teacher called the principal — but not before using the knife to cut and serve the cake."

OK, so why not just hold the knife and call the Grandmother to pick it up? Sounds like the girl had nothing to do with it.

[paximperium]

Right I agree, I remember getting into trouble for the same exact thing, only more then 20 years ago. I remember getting into trouble, as in dont do that again ect, but not being sent to any kind of reform school for forgetting to leave it at home.
And see how you turned out...tsk tsk :D

[Professor Yaffle]

My dad once got a visit from the police after someone saw him walking round the corner with a carving knife, to carve my gran's sunday roast for her.

[quixotecoyote]

They're working on it:

The law was introduced after a third-grade girl was expelled for a year because her grandmother had sent a birthday cake to school, along with a knife to cut it. The teacher called the principal — but not before using the knife to cut and serve the cake.


In Zachary’s case, the state’s new law did not help because it mentions only expulsion and does not explicitly address suspensions. A revised law is being drafted to include suspensions.



I've told my school horror story before (lies->rumors->abuse of authority->arrest->etc.) but in this case it looks like Delaware is trying to get its act together.

[paximperium]

My dad once got a visit from the police after someone saw him walking round the corner with a carving knife, to carve my gran's sunday roast for her.
To protect and serve good roast.

[athon]

I can understand policies against carrying things in some places that are openly intended to be used as weapons, but I just do not see a pocketknife as falling in that category. How long before students aren't even allowed to have sharpened pencils? Or forks with which to eat their lunch?

Context, of course, is everything.

As a teacher, there were some kids I'd happily confiscate a pocket knife from. Others I would probably simply explain that it's best for them to leave it at home, or in the very least make sure I don't know they have it.

There's a good reason why you don't see people engage in muggings using a pencil or a fork.

Athon

[Careyp74]

Context, of course, is everything.

As a teacher, there were some kids I'd happily confiscate a pocket knife from. Others I would probably simply explain that it's best for them to leave it at home, or in the very least make sure I don't know they have it.

There's a good reason why you don't see people engage in muggings using a pencil or a fork.

Athon

Knives are dangerous because it doesn't take much to cause harm, however, an enraged kid with a sharpened pencil or fork could do enough of it if he wanted to. Once it is decided that the harm is there, everyone will be using chalk and sporks at school.

[LTC8K6]

If they let him have a pencil, then he can lash out and injure someone...

[themusicteacher]

The reason stuff like this happens is lack of communication. The school (sometimes) does not let parents know about all policies. Even if they do, parents usually aren't going to think "hey, I should probably talk to my 6 year-old about not taking knifes to school." What 6 year-old takes a knife to school? If I'm a parent, I'm probably not going to ask my kid, "Now, did you remember to leave your knife at home?" To me, this whole thing is miscommunication but we don't know the kid or the whole situation. The way the story reads, it sounds as if, "the little kid made a mistake and the school completely and utterly over-reacted."

[jasonpatterson]

What gets me is that the federal legislation that really got all of the zero tolerance policies going (the Gun Free Schools Act of 1994(5?)) doesn't consider knives weapons. It only refers to guns and high explosives (not even normal fireworks, as I recall...) It also requires that the district superintendent have discretion to modify the punishment. The states were required to take that very general framework and craft their own laws, most made the laws far more restrictive, so that they included knives and such. From then, school districts were required to make policies to enact the state laws, and they are charged with enforcing them.

The superintendent of this school district was allowed to alter the punishment, according to federal law. If state law in Delaware contradicts that, the school shouldn't be receiving federal education funds, plain and simple.

ETA:
Here's the act (http://www.ed.gov/legislation/ESEA/sec14601.html), from 1994. The requirement for superintendents to have discretion is point 1.

[Dave Rogers]

There are, it seems to me, two separate issues here.

(1) Should a six-year-old be allowed to take a knife to school? I have no problem with the answer being "no". This may be an unpopular policy, but it is a sane one.

(2) Should a six-year-old be suspended from school or forced to attend reform school for 45 days for an inadvertant breach of a rule? This, I have a problem with. It's clearly disproportionate, to the point of insanity.

It's not the rule, but the manner of its enforcement, that's wrong here. A sane response would have been to confiscate the knife, inform the parents, return it to them at the end of the school day, and make sure that everybody understands that the rule exists and that another infringement will lead to more serious consequences.

And, of course, in a different instance involving a different child, a different response might be appropriate. The one-size-fits-all approach is to blame here.

Dave

[jasonpatterson]

I can recall finding out that I had about 10 shotgun shells in my coat pockets once in high school. It was deer season and I had forgotten to unload them before school. A teacher saw them fall out when I put my coat on to go home. He called me an idiot and told me to put them away...

[ponderingturtle]

Unfortunately that is the case. The article clearly discusses the silliness of this zero-tolerance policy and many school districts are trying to figure out how to handle it.

The article also points out that black students frequently suffered harsher penalties than white students for the same offenses.

[ponderingturtle]

To protect and serve good roast.

That makes assumptions about the quality of her grans roast. It might have been good or it might have been very dry. I hope the first but you never know.

[Safe-Keeper]

I have met many 6 year olds that lose their temper and lash out. It's not the rule, but the manner of its enforcement, that's wrong here. A sane response would have been to confiscate the knife, inform the parents, return it to them at the end of the school day, and make sure that everybody understands that the rule exists and that another infringement will lead to more serious consequences. The "throw everyone who commits an offence to the dogs and throw away the key" approach and the many absurd examples of its application is rather short-sighted, in my opinion.

During my last year of high-school, my school bus stopped by a middle school on its way home. Many of the kids there were barely in puberty, seemed to me to be about 12-13 years. One day after the kids had boarded a faculty member got on the bus and ordered one of the kids off. He refused, and she threatened that if she didn't get off voluntarily, she'd be led off... in handcuffs. It kinda explains "don't taze me, bro" episode. If the cops are afraid of a squirming twelve-year old, who knows what a fully grown man could do to them.

[ponderingturtle]

During my last year of high-school, my school bus stopped by a middle school on its way home. Many of the kids there were barely in puberty, seemed to me to be about 12-13 years. One day after the kids had boarded a faculty member got on the bus and ordered one of the kids off. He refused, and she threatened that if she didn't get off voluntarily, she'd be led off... in handcuffs. It kinda explains "don't taze me, bro" episode. If the cops are afraid of a squirming twelve-year old, who knows what a fully grown man could do to them.

You want to know something else, my mother works with juvinile delinquints and they recently changed policy so that the kids can not be touched or searched at all. So if they want to just walk away the staff can not prevent this. And they can not be searched for knives or drugs or phones.

[Checkmite]

Schools are now really taking the necessary precautions to handle dangerous kids. Good thing this elementary school took care of this 6 year old who brought a cub scout knife to school. I can't believe he'll only face 45 days in reform school for breaking a rule he couldn't understand or even read.

Seriously, have you ever met a six year old who could define the word "policy"?

If anybody is at fault, it's the teacher for not explaining the rules.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/12/education/12discipline.html?no_interstitial

What, exactly, about "No bringing knives to school, period" needs explaining?

For what it's worth, the knife was not a "cub scout knife", nor would he even be allowed to take it on an outing (if he did, the cubmaster would likely confiscate it until it was time to go home). Cub Scouts are not allowed to use pocketknives, for two reasons: 1., Boy Scouts are, and the privilege is one of various functional incentives for getting Cub Scouts to become Boy Scouts when they get older; and 2. because children of Cub Scout age are generally considered not to possess the requisite judgment for handling dangerous cutting tools. They tend to think of things like pocketknives as cool toys and use them primarily to show off to their friends, like this boy did. He didn't bring the knife to school to cut his sandwich; he brought it to school to show his friends. Schools have plastic forks, spoons, and knives for students to use and there was no reason he had to bring his own. His bringing it, in my opinion, just actively demonstrates that he doesn't have the kind of judgment you want to see in someone carrying around a knife.

That said, 45 days seems excessive.

[Just thinking]

A sane response would have been to confiscate the knife, inform the parents, return it to them at the end of the school day, and make sure that everybody understands that the rule exists and that another infringement will lead to more serious consequences.

That would put too many people out of work ... no, seriously, that's the correct course of action in this case. I strongly suspect it's worked in the past.

The one-size-fits-all approach is to blame here.

Unfortunately the one size here is a blindfold and cigarette.

[Safe-Keeper]

You want to know something else, my mother works with juvinile delinquints and they recently changed policy so that the kids can not be touched or searched at all. So if they want to just walk away the staff can not prevent this. And they can not be searched for knives or drugs or phones.So there's people at both sides of the pendulum, both of them swinging it away from them as hard as they can?

A teacher I once talked to spoke of a similar problem in Norway, where they're not allowed to even grab troublemakers by the arm. Presumably (and hopefully) unless breaking up fights.

[makaya325]

[QUOTE=Checkmite;5200349] He didn't bring the knife to school to cut his sandwich; he brought it to school to show his friends [QUOTE]

And you know this how? What are you, his mother?

[desertgal]

He didn't bring the knife to school to cut his sandwich; he brought it to school to show his friends

And you know this how? What are you, his mother?Would you please, for like the 4,000th time, learn how to use the quote function properly, and not cherry pick quotes of context?

[Checkmite]

And you know this how? What are you, his mother?

No, I've just spent a whole year as a seven-year-old boy before; so I'm familiar with the mental landscape.

[Ravenwood]

What, exactly, about "No bringing knives to school, period" needs explaining?

For what it's worth, the knife was not a "cub scout knife", nor would he even be allowed to take it on an outing (if he did, the cubmaster would likely confiscate it until it was time to go home). Cub Scouts are not allowed to use pocketknives, for two reasons: 1., Boy Scouts are, and the privilege is one of various functional incentives for getting Cub Scouts to become Boy Scouts when they get older; and 2. because children of Cub Scout age are generally considered not to possess the requisite judgment for handling dangerous cutting tools.

Not true. When I was a cub scout in the 70's, we were allowed to carry pocket knives & "hobo" tools like the one that kid got busted for. It was sheath knives & camp axes that we could not carry or use until older. Heck, it's kinda hard to learn whittlin without a pocket knife. We even had knife safety classes. I did a quick search & was not able to find a no-pocket knives policy, in fact, more to the contrary...
http://www.geocities.com/~PACK215/whittlin-chip.html
http://www.geocities.com/~pack215/requirements.html
http://www.crossroadsbsa.org/pathfinder/ptc/KnifeSafety.pdf


edit to add: Look-an official cub scout lockblade...
http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/ItemDetail.aspx?cat=01RTL&ctlg=00MASTER&ctgy=PRODUCTS&c2=CAMPING&C3=KNIVES&C4=&LV=3&item=24076

[Checkmite]

Not true. When I was a cub scout in the 70's, we were allowed to carry pocket knives & "hobo" tools like the one that kid got busted for. It was sheath knives & camp axes that we could not carry or use until older. Heck, it's kinda hard to learn whittlin without a pocket knife. We even had knife safety classes. I did a quick search & was not able to find a no-pocket knives policy, in fact, more to the contrary...
http://www.geocities.com/~PACK215/whittlin-chip.html
http://www.geocities.com/~pack215/requirements.html
http://www.crossroadsbsa.org/pathfinder/ptc/KnifeSafety.pdf


edit to add: Look-an official cub scout lockblade...
http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/ItemDetail.aspx?cat=01RTL&ctlg=00MASTER&ctgy=PRODUCTS&c2=CAMPING&C3=KNIVES&C4=&LV=3&item=24076

Yes, but read closer. Those indicate that to obtain the knife card you've got to be a Bear - which, if he just joined, he can't possibly be. Heck, first grade? He's probably still a Tiger.

He wouldn't be allowed to use the knife.

[Toke]

http://www.thegoodstuffshop.dk/Graphics/Products/1385_s.jpg

I was staffer at a boyscout camp in USA in 1991, and brought my boy scout knife along.

It was called a steak knife and some commented that US scout were not allowed anything but folding knifes.
The rounded tip makes it great for buttering bread.
And there were some there who could not be entrusted with a knife.

[athon]

Knives are dangerous because it doesn't take much to cause harm, however, an enraged kid with a sharpened pencil or fork could do enough of it if he wanted to. Once it is decided that the harm is there, everyone will be using chalk and sporks at school.

True. But it still misses the point.

Policies in schools are rarely hard and fast laws. Teachers are always required to practice 'risk assessment'. Anything they do has to be justified accordingly.

I'll give you an example.

It's often assumed incorrectly that there are a heap of things science teachers can't do any more, like make gunpowder in the classroom or use radioactive elements or grow bacteria. Yet legally speaking (I can't vouch for the US, mind you, however this is my experience in Australia and the UK) there is nothing really stopping you, as such.

What you do have to do is demonstrate that you took every precaution to balance the risks that come with the benefits. Often, this is rather difficult, and so a lot of schools have blanket policies to persuade their teacher's decisions in case a teacher fails to do an adequate risk assessment of a situation.

Yes, pencils can potentially be dangerous. However, in the classroom they are incredibly useful. They also lack the same psychological weight a knife has. Ever see somebody mug somebody with a pencil? Sure, they could be stabbed...but a knife is psychologically more imposing.

When determining whether to allow pencils, teachers balance the benefits of having the writing implements with the risk that they will be used in a threatening and dangerous manner. With knives, there is little reason a kid needs a sharp knife in the classroom, so the decision is based further towards 'unnecessary risk'. Add to that the fact that knives are used more often as implements of threat and harm, and I can understand fully why they'd simply be banned.

Athon

[lightfire22000]

I have met many 6 year olds that lose their temper and lash out.

So you should arrest them and force them to go to prison because they have a knife because they COULD lash out with it? The knife was not only taken away, the child could be sent to prison. You're essentially punishing someone for doing something they didn't do, use the knife as a weapon.

[lightfire22000]

http://www.thegoodstuffshop.dk/Graphics/Products/1385_s.jpg

I was staffer at a boyscout camp in USA in 1991, and brought my boy scout knife along.

It was called a steak knife and some commented that US scout were not allowed anything but folding knifes.
The rounded tip makes it great for buttering bread.
And there were some there who could not be entrusted with a knife.

So you would send them to prison?

[paximperium]

Prison? Where? Oh, in lightfire's fantasy world. Nevermind.

[lightfire22000]

There are, it seems to me, two separate issues here.

(1) Should a six-year-old be allowed to take a knife to school? I have no problem with the answer being "no". This may be an unpopular policy, but it is a sane one.

(2) Should a six-year-old be suspended from school or forced to attend reform school for 45 days for an inadvertant breach of a rule? This, I have a problem with. It's clearly disproportionate, to the point of insanity.

It's not the rule, but the manner of its enforcement, that's wrong here. A sane response would have been to confiscate the knife, inform the parents, return it to them at the end of the school day, and make sure that everybody understands that the rule exists and that another infringement will lead to more serious consequences.

And, of course, in a different instance involving a different child, a different response might be appropriate. The one-size-fits-all approach is to blame here.

Dave

Thank you! Some sanity here. Yes, it makes sense to take the knife away and either give it to his parents or give it to him at the end of the day if his parents pick him up. When I went to elementary school, we had to check knives and tools in an office at the beginning of the day. It doesn't make sense to just treat the kid harsher than full grown adults who are convicted of assault.

[arthwollipot]

From the age of about ten years or so, I have very rarely left my home without at least one pocketknife on my person. To me, it's an indispensable tool, without which I have a very difficult time imagining being able to function.:eye-poppi What on earth do you use it for? I carried a pocketknife for a couple of years (attached to my keychain), but stopped because I finally realised that I had absolutely no use for it whatsoever. I find it difficult to grasp the idea of being unable to function without one.

[lightfire22000]

Prison? Where? Oh, in lightfire's fantasy world. Nevermind.

Read the article. He faces reform school, which is prison in every meaningful sense. Learn to read paxi.

Not that Wikipedia is always right, but I would trust it when it comes to common expressions and definitions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_school

[lightfire22000]

:eye-poppi What on earth do you use it for? I carried a pocketknife for a couple of years (attached to my keychain), but stopped because I finally realised that I had absolutely no use for it whatsoever. I find it difficult to grasp the idea of being unable to function without one.

I used a pocket knife frequently when I was on a ship and when I went camping. It's a very handy tool.

[paximperium]

Read the article. He faces reform school, which is prison in every meaningful sense. Learn to read paxi.
Of course it is lightfire. That must be the reason people use the word prison and reform school interchangeably in the article. :rolleyes:

[paximperium]

Read the article. He faces reform school, which is prison in every meaningful sense. Learn to read paxi.

Not that Wikipedia is always right, but I would trust it when it comes to common expressions and definitions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_school
That's nice. So where does it say prison in the article again?

[athon]

I used a pocket knife frequently when I was on a ship and when I went camping. It's a very handy tool.

Considering that Art was commenting on Bob's claim that he 'never left home without it', I can't see the relevance to stating it's useful for particular situations. Nobody can argue a knife can be handy in given contexts.

School, however, isn't one of them.

Unless it's common for you to unexpectedly find yourself on board a ship on any one day, or suddenly be thrown into the wilderness one morning, I don't see the point.

Athon

[MervinFerd]

I can recall finding out that I had about 10 shotgun shells in my coat pockets once in high school. It was deer season and I had forgotten to unload them before school. A teacher saw them fall out when I put my coat on to go home. He called me an idiot and told me to put them away...

You were hunting deer with a shotgun?

OK.

I'm staying away from your neighborhood.

[Checkmite]

You were hunting deer with a shotgun?

OK.

I'm staying away from your neighborhood.

Rifled slug - it's pretty common. That or black-powder is practically all you can use in Ohio during gun season - it's illegal to use actual rifles for deer hunting here.

[MervinFerd]

There are, it seems to me, two separate issues here.

(1) Should a six-year-old be allowed to take a knife to school? I have no problem with the answer being "no". This may be an unpopular policy, but it is a sane one.

(2) Should a six-year-old be suspended from school or forced to attend reform school for 45 days for an inadvertant breach of a rule? This, I have a problem with. It's clearly disproportionate, to the point of insanity.

It's not the rule, but the manner of its enforcement, that's wrong here. A sane response would have been to confiscate the knife, inform the parents, return it to them at the end of the school day, and make sure that everybody understands that the rule exists and that another infringement will lead to more serious consequences.

And, of course, in a different instance involving a different child, a different response might be appropriate. The one-size-fits-all approach is to blame here.

Dave

Dave,
I think you've got it about right. I've been in schools where violence is a devastating problem. A total ban on any kind of knife is unpleasant, but necessary. The six-year-old isn't likely to do anything violent, but its OK to start teaching the rule early.

OTOH, Common Sense is needed in enforcement of every rule. The 6 yo needed a lecture and a trip to the Principal's office. Unfortunately, school officials are prone to literal interpretation and taking the path of zero liability (for themselves). In this case the zero administrator risk approach, hopefully, backfired.

[Toke]

So you would send them to prison?

No, two of them got into some kind of knife fight where they scratched the ground in front of them claiming it was Mexican sigh language for wanting to gut each other.
They were sent home. (They were some of the younger staffers)

[Careyp74]

:eye-poppi What on earth do you use it for? I carried a pocketknife for a couple of years (attached to my keychain), but stopped because I finally realised that I had absolutely no use for it whatsoever. I find it difficult to grasp the idea of being unable to function without one.

Now, a Leatherman on the other hand..... I still carry it around at work, but that has a knife on it so I leave it at home when I go to school.

[jasonpatterson]

You were hunting deer with a shotgun?

OK.

I'm staying away from your neighborhood.

Yep, as checkmite said, they were slugs. You can hunt with a bow, a crossbow, muzzleloader, large caliber pistol, or shotgun with slugs. Each has its own season, with the previous weapons being allowed in the later, shorter seasons. (Ex: You can hunt with a bow during pistol/shotgun season.)

[lightfire22000]

That's nice. So where does it say prison in the article again?

In the wikipedia article? The first sentence reads "A reform school in the United States was a term used to define, often somewhat euphemistically, what was often essentially a penal institution for boys, generally teenagers.
Contents
[hide]"
Also, try this sentence "Today, no state openly or officially refers to its juvenile correctional institutions as "reform schools", although such institutions still exist. " If the news article used the term "reform school", it must be either really out of touch with today's politically correct language, or attempting to convey the absurd gravity of the situation.

Besides, if the news article never used the term "prison", so what? When North Korean dissidents are sentenced to "rehabilitation through labor" what do you call that? Should you not call that a work camp?

[lightfire22000]

No, two of them got into some kind of knife fight where they scratched the ground in front of them claiming it was Mexican sigh language for wanting to gut each other.
They were sent home. (They were some of the younger staffers)

Oh, okay. That's different. Fighting with the knife with malice is completely different from simply having a knife.

[AvalonXQ]

At my high school, someone mixed some chemicals in a plastic bottle and threw it into a trash can in the cafeteria, creating a small explosion and a loud noise.
The administration's response to this "bomb threat" was to ban plastic bottles.
Yeah, I might be slightly "anti public education" myself.

[lightfire22000]

Considering that Art was commenting on Bob's claim that he 'never left home without it', I can't see the relevance to stating it's useful for particular situations. Nobody can argue a knife can be handy in given contexts.

School, however, isn't one of them.

Unless it's common for you to unexpectedly find yourself on board a ship on any one day, or suddenly be thrown into the wilderness one morning, I don't see the point.

Athon

Oh, often times when I went to elementary school, in the spring maybe once or twice a week, I would have a scouting or outdoor activity right after school. It was fairly common so we brought the knives to school and had to check them at the office. I can only remember one time where a kid, who wasn't involved in any activity, got in trouble for having a knife, and he was trying to conceal it because he clearly knew the rules. He got a one day suspension. Otherwise, they would have just told him the rule.

[arthwollipot]

At my high school, someone mixed some chemicals in a plastic bottle and threw it into a trash can in the cafeteria, creating a small explosion and a loud noise.
The administration's response to this "bomb threat" was to ban plastic bottles.
Yeah, I might be slightly "anti public education" myself.That was pre-9/11, right?

[Checkmite]

:eye-poppi What on earth do you use it for? I carried a pocketknife for a couple of years (attached to my keychain), but stopped because I finally realised that I had absolutely no use for it whatsoever. I find it difficult to grasp the idea of being unable to function without one.

I'm in this boat. I carried one in my early 20's and used it exactly once - to slice a small block of cheese while snacking. It's been like 5 years since I've carried a pocketknife or other multi-tool around. They're heavy, bulky, and completely useless to me.

Camping is another story. I have one for camping, but it is a small one. And I haven't gone camping in years.

[Checkmite]

I used a pocket knife frequently when I was on a ship and when I went camping. It's a very handy tool.

I've got a neat little gadget that's like a pocketknife, except it has a divot tool and a spike wrench and a groove scraper and a brush and a couple of extra ball markers on it, and it's absolutely, indispensibly handy whenever I'm on a golf course. Which is around three times a year.

[makaya325]

I hope this case get's a critical analysis, instead of a "
Oh no, he's got a knife! Suspend him!" Policy being accepted

[Careyp74]

I hope this case get's a critical analysis, instead of a "
Oh no, he's got a knife! Suspend him!" Policy being accepted

well,if you were keeping up with story you would know that isn't the case.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-10-13-delaware-weapon_N.htm

[Dancing David]

Schools are now really taking the necessary precautions to handle dangerous kids. Good thing this elementary school took care of this 6 year old who brought a cub scout knife to school. I can't believe he'll only face 45 days in reform school for breaking a rule he couldn't understand or even read.

Seriously, have you ever met a six year old who could define the word "policy"?

If anybody is at fault, it's the teacher for not explaining the rules.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/12/education/12discipline.html?no_interstitial

Sorry, late to the fray.

Zero tolerance polcies are about ten years old.

And no, it is not the teacher's job. It is the parent's job to read the 'code of conduct'.

yes it is silly, as all zero tolerance policies are.

[Dancing David]

Read the article. He faces reform school, which is prison in every meaningful sense. Learn to read paxi.

Not that Wikipedia is always right, but I would trust it when it comes to common expressions and definitions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_school

Really, do you have a citation on where the child is going? I think you are making it up.

They face two alternatives in most schools districts 'alternative education' which is not 'reform school'. And 'home education'.

Maybe you should find a source for where the child will be placed during the suspensions/expulsion.

[Dancing David]

Dave,
I think you've got it about right. I've been in schools where violence is a devastating problem. A total ban on any kind of knife is unpleasant, but necessary. The six-year-old isn't likely to do anything violent, but its OK to start teaching the rule early.

OTOH, Common Sense is needed in enforcement of every rule. The 6 yo needed a lecture and a trip to the Principal's office. Unfortunately, school officials are prone to literal interpretation and taking the path of zero liability (for themselves). In this case the zero administrator risk approach, hopefully, backfired.

ZTP policies are like that, many school districts have amended them to giv ethe building principal's some leeway. especially at the grade school level.

However, local politics are often involved.

In my school district (where I work), it does depend on your grade level, and the whim of the building principal. If you are K-3 you are likely to receive 1-5 day suspension and not a mandatory expulsion (the ZPT). That is for a first offense, but if it follows a pattern of suspensions for violence then regardless of your grade you are likely to get the six month sack.

Now at grade 3+ they are more likely to look at expulsion and at the 6+ the mandatory expulsion is pretty much the rule.

But given the fact tha kids do shoot and kill other kids ats chool , there are reasons for the rules, it is the ZPT that is the problem. (And the fact that there is always bias in the way more flexible rules are enforced.)

[Dancing David]

I hope this case get's a critical analysis, instead of a "
Oh no, he's got a knife! Suspend him!" Policy being accepted

Depemds upon the building principals, the district admin and the school board, many districts enforce a ZTP.

[Eyeron]

Zero Tolerance policies are incredibly stupid, but they are only a sypmton of the real problem, and that is because of the sue happy nature of Americans and the stupid overprotecting of children today.

Here's a primary example fo what I mean by overprotecting children.

You can't say the f-bomb in front of children because children who hear that word will utlimated become derange atheists who sacrifice children to Satan and eat the entrails out of other children. Anybody who says the word only want sto harm children. If you want to harm children you're nothing more than a monster and you don't want to be a monster do you?

And of course if you harm a child you've got to be sued.

It wasn't always like this. I remember at the age of ten taking a hunter safety course that was sponsored by my school if I wanted to use a rifle to go hunting, because the law stated you need a hunting licensce.

The goal of the hunter safety course was to teach children how to responsibly and safely handle a firearm. It taught things like never put your finger on the trigger unless you're aiming at a deer with the intent to shoot it and always point your rifle down when you are walking with it.

Now people just can't imagine that sort of thing. It's a horrifying thing to think of children with firearms. Part of that fear comes from over-reaction (as well as the media milking it for all it's worth) to accidental deaths in the home due to firearms as well as the ten year old gang-banger who has no qualms about shooting someone.

[Dancing David]

In the wikipedia article? The first sentence reads "A reform school in the United States was a term used to define, often somewhat euphemistically, what was often essentially a penal institution for boys, generally teenagers.
Contents
[hide]"
Also, try this sentence "Today, no state openly or officially refers to its juvenile correctional institutions as "reform schools", although such institutions still exist. " If the news article used the term "reform school", it must be either really out of touch with today's politically correct language, or attempting to convey the absurd gravity of the situation.

Besides, if the news article never used the term "prison", so what? When North Korean dissidents are sentenced to "rehabilitation through labor" what do you call that? Should you not call that a work camp?

And you argument is based upon a false analogy, the words are 'alternative school', but i don't suppose you actual readw hat you aregue about. No article said whe would be sent to a reform school. that was your imaginations.

[Dancing David]

Zero Tolerance policies are incredibly stupid, but they are only a sypmton of the real problem, and that is because of the sue happy nature of Americans and the stupid overprotecting of children today.

Here's a primary example fo what I mean by overprotecting children.

You can't say the f-bomb in front of children because children who hear that word will utlimated become derange atheists who sacrifice children to Satan and eat the entrails out of other children. Anybody who says the word only want sto harm children. If you want to harm children you're nothing more than a monster and you don't want to be a monster do you?

And of course if you harm a child you've got to be sued.

It wasn't always like this. I remember at the age of ten taking a hunter safety course that was sponsored by my school if I wanted to use a rifle to go hunting, because the law stated you need a hunting licensce.

The goal of the hunter safety course was to teach children how to responsibly and safely handle a firearm. It taught things like never put your finger on the trigger unless you're aiming at a deer with the intent to shoot it and always point your rifle down when you are walking with it.

Now people just can't imagine that sort of thing. It's a horrifying thing to think of children with firearms. Part of that fear comes from over-reaction (as well as the media milking it for all it's worth) to accidental deaths in the home due to firearms as well as the ten year old gang-banger who has no qualms about shooting someone.


Funny how your rambling has nothing to do with zero tolerance policies in real schools, any data to back up your assertions?

You know about the topic of the thread?

ZTP are not a result of law suits, they are a result of the Regan era 'war on drugs' and then extended to school violence. They are not a suit issue, they are an 'get elected to tehs chool board' issue. They also go along with the 'Monster' criminal child sate laws.

[Steve]

:eye-poppi What on earth do you use it for? I carried a pocketknife for a couple of years (attached to my keychain), but stopped because I finally realised that I had absolutely no use for it whatsoever. I find it difficult to grasp the idea of being unable to function without one.

Not to speak for bob Blaylock, but I too carry a small pocketknife attached to my keychain. In addition to a 1.5 inch knife blade it has a screwdriver and a small pair of scissors. I would estimate that, on average, I use about once every two weeks, usually for a quick repair to something my 7yo daughter has broken or mis-used. I could function without it, but I do find it convenient.

[Dancing David]

I too have know people to carry pockets knifes, archaeologists and general handy people.

[Toke]

http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?pictureid=1686&albumid=222&dl=1255983002&thumb=1
Is having 3 flashlights about ones person unusual?:)

[AvalonXQ]

http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?pictureid=1686&albumid=222&dl=1255983002&thumb=1
Is having 3 flashlights about ones person unusual?:)

Not for those of us with three sets of eyes each facing a different direction and very poor night vision.