December 25th

[Markus702]

In his latest commentary, Randi wishes happy birthday to Sir Isaac Newton and states "Instead, most of the world chooses to believe that another guy was born on this day, a notion for which there's no proof at all." Having been raised Catholic and gone to a Catholic school I feel I can safely say that (Jack Chick's followers aside) very few Christians believe this is the actual birthdate of Christ, and rather just the symbollic day to celebrate.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Markus702
In his latest commentary, Randi wishes happy birthday to Sir Isaac Newton and states "Instead, most of the world chooses to believe that another guy was born on this day, a notion for which there's no proof at all." Having been raised Catholic and gone to a Catholic school I feel I can safely say that (Jack Chick's followers aside) very few Christians believe this is the actual birthdate of Christ, and rather just the symbollic day to celebrate.

The question has recently come up in a (heated!) debate with astrologers. I can't find any biblical note of the specific day, and I can't track down when and why that date was decided. It was probably close to winter solstice, though.

Any sources?

And...to confuse matters even more, in Denmark, Xmas is the 24th! We eat dinner (goose, duck, roast), then dance around the real tree (with real candles, not those sissy-American electrical ones ;)), then get our presents.

The 25th, at lunch, we have the Xmas Lunch, usually the Great Cold Table.

[Skeptical Greg]

Originally posted by CFLarsen


The question has recently come up in a (heated!) debate with astrologers. I can't find any biblical note of the specific day, and I can't track down when and why that date was decided. It was probably close to winter solstice, though.

Any sources?



We were discussing this thing over in R&P.. ( Surprised?)

Missing the Reason for the Season by Chris Carpenter (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32450)

The topic was presented as a link to a Fundie site, by one of our less skeptical members...


Here is some pretty good info..

JESUS IS NOT THE REASON FOR THE SEASON (http://www.valleyskeptic.com/xmas.html)

There was some dispute about the proper date of the birth of Christ and not everyone agrees even to this day. It was not until A.D. 350, that December 25 was declared the official date for celebrating Christmas by Pope Julius I. When the fathers of the church decided to settle upon a date to celebrate the event, they wisely chose the day of the winter solstice, since it coincided with some rival religions' celebrations and the rebirth of the sun (see Year of the Sun Calendar), symbolized by bon-fires and yule logs. December 25 was a festival long before the conversion of the Germanic peoples to Christianity, it seemed fitting that the time of their winter festival would also be the time to celebrate the birth of Christ. The darkness that had frightened and threatened to defeat the ancient pagans, was forever defeated by the coming of Christ."

[Rolfe]

It's only a question of the early Church having taken over the pagan winter feasts. There was no way they were going to stop these feasts, so the smart move was to baptise them into the fold. The people get their usual festivity, they're just encouraged to relate it to something else. I love the way so many English Christmas carols invoke tree imagery - a lot of them are sanctified versions of pagan songs about tree-worship, connected to druidism as far as I know. It gives the whole thing such a deep cultural meaning as well as the obvious religious one.

However, never underestimate the literal-mindedness of the terminally stupid. One Christmas my father (a Church of Scotland minister) said in his sermon that we don't know the date of Christ's birth, but we can be pretty sure it wasn't the 25th of December. He was accosted by a parishoner after the service and accused of undermining his faith!

I got the impression that Randi was actually questioning the historical existence of Christ, more than just the exact date. I'm not too sure many historians, even atheist ones, would agree with him there.

Edited to add: I see Diogenes beat me to it!

Rolfe.

[DVFinn]

I got the impression that Randi was actually questioning the historical existence of Christ, more than just the exact date. I'm not too sure many historians, even atheist ones, would agree with him there.

The evidence is rather weak. Outside the bible there are only a handful of references to christ and they're suspected forgeries (tacitus, flavius josephus). Of course you have the Theid Papyrus, a scrap of writing a few centimeters high that might be a few lines from one of the Gospel (assuming the lines were written slightly differently then any known text) and that are dated to the first century only by analysis of the script style (guess work).

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Rolfe
It's only a question of the early Church having taken over the pagan winter feasts. There was no way they were going to stop these feasts, so the smart move was to baptise them into the fold. The people get their usual festivity, they're just encouraged to relate it to something else.

On a similar note: Many of the Danish churches built in or around the 12th century (most churches were built then, then later expanded) were placed on old places of norse worship. We have found horse skeletons, and other artifacts under the churches, indicating this.

A lot of the churches were, of course, also built on the highest point in the 'hood.

Well, relatively...this is Denmark we are speaking of....highest point being a "whopping" 173 m above sea level...but we got "hills" and "dales"...."mole hills" and "dins-dales"... :)

[Suezoled]

Dinsdale!

-monty python

[CFLarsen]

"Oh yes Kipling Road was a typical East End Street, people were in and out of each other's houses with each other's property all day. They were a cheery lot. Cheerful and violent. Doug was keen on boxing, but when he learned to walk he took up putting the boot in the groin. He was very interested in that.His mother had a terrible job getting him to come in for tea. Putting his little boot in he'd be, bless him. All the kids were like that then, they didn't have their heads stuffed with all this Cartesian dualism."
.......
One small-time operator who fell foul of Dinsdale Piranha was Vince Snetterton-Lewis.

"Well one day I was at home threatening the kids when I looks out through the hole in the wall and sees this tank pull up and out gets one of Dinsdale's boys, so he comes in nice and friendly and says Dinsdale wants to have a word with me, so he chains me to the back of the tank and takes me for a scrape round to Dinsdale's place and Dinsdale's there in the conversation pit with Doug and Charles Paisley, the baby crusher, and two film producers and a man they called 'Kierkegaard', who just sat there biting the heads of whippets and Dinsdale says 'I hear you've been a naughty boy Clement' and he splits me nostrils open and saws me leg off and pulls me liver out and I tell him my name's not Clement and then... he loses his temper and nails me head to the floor."

No comedy like this today....today, it's "Friends" that's all the hoots.....ah, the inevitable decline of Western civilization... :)

[Jeff Corey]

The only thing he feared was a giant 'edgehog called Spiny Norman.
And he nailed my trouble's 'ead to a lounge suite.

[Suezoled]

Spiny Norman lived in an airplane hangar, didn't he? When he wasn't going around calling Dinsdale's name?

[Drooper]

I think there is a great irony in the way that Randi and other hold Newton as a banner against religious celebrations during Christmas.

From what I have read of Newton, he would take a far more easy going approach.

One story I have seen quotes a friend asking Newton why he had a horse shoe hanging above his door; thinking such a man had no time for superstition. Newton is said to have replied that he didn't believe in that sort of thing, but he had heard that didn't matter.

[phildonnia]

According to Luke 2:8,

And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.

This suggests that it was lambing season, or early spring.

[RSLancastr]

Originally posted by phildonnia
This suggests that it was lambing season, or early spring. Do shepherds only watch their flocks by night during lambing season?

[TheBoyPaj]

Well, the lyrics of the carol "In the Bleak Midwinter" suggest that it took place when there was lots of snow about and all the water was frozen. When does it do that in the middle east?

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by TheBoyPaj
Well, the lyrics of the carol "In the Bleak Midwinter" suggest that it took place when there was lots of snow about and all the water was frozen. When does it do that in the middle east? This carol was written by Christina Georgina Rossetti, who was born in 1830.

I kind of hope TheBoyPaj was joking here, but the addition of a smilie would have made it a lot clearer. :D

Rolfe.

[psy kick]

I've heard that Jesus'birthday was in September.
Doesn't matter, really;His resurrection is what mattered.

And what of that holiday?
Didn't christians co-opt Easter also?

[psy kick]

Hey!
How about making Randi's birthday (sometime in August) Skeptic day?
:D

[iain]

Originally posted by psy kick
And what of that holiday?
Didn't christians co-opt Easter also? Easter is linked to the jewish passover festival for obvious reasons.

I don't think Easter has any particular pagan links; though some of the trappings of easter (e.g. easter bunnies, eggs etc.) are obviously linked to the pagan idea of spring more than the Christian Easter.

[whitefork]

Rapture Ready acknowledges a pagan connection:

http://www.raptureready.com/faq/faq104.html

Here's another: http://godkind.org/easter.html

Other sites tie Eostre to Astarte, but that seems a bit of a stretch.

One more: http://www.rightdivision.com/html/easter_pagan_influences.html

[Kerberos]

Originally posted by Drooper
One story I have seen quotes a friend asking Newton why he had a horse shoe hanging above his door; thinking such a man had no time for superstition. Newton is said to have replied that he didn't believe in that sort of thing, but he had heard that didn't matter.

I've seen the excact same story, only about Niels Bohr, so I'd say the reliability is questionable.

[BillyJoe]

Originally posted by Kerberos
I've seen the excact same story, only about Niels Bohr, so I'd say the reliability is questionable. Yes, the story is very obviously a joke. :rolleyes:

[kevinsbikes]

Down here in Phoenix, I have a neighbor that respects the fact that I am an Athiest. Joking around one day, the subject came up of X-mas. He asked what I celebrate on the 25th. I said that my friend, BigShuStu celebrates "Giftmas" so that he is not a social outcast. In addition to Giftmas, I also celebrate the birth of Jesus... Jesus Melendez that is! 'Heysus'... ta dump dump!

Kevin W.