Anti Swine Flu Vaccine Legaltainment

[Orphia Nay]

Rima Laibow (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=4542593&highlight=laibow#post4542593) is at it again.

http://www.healthfreedomusa.org/?p=3617

Washington DC – October 9, 2009: Despite the FDA’s intention to begin delivery this week of the n ovel “Swine Flu” 2009-H1N1-A live virus nasal mist vaccine to 90,000 government-approved locations nationwide, six New Yorkers and several NonGovernmental Organizations (NGOs) filed for an Emergency Injunction in the US District Court for the District of Columbia to prevent the distribution of what they believe are illegal, unnecessary and dangerous vaccines.

The case of Null, Laibow et al. v FDA et al. [Docket No. 1:09-cv-01924]challenges the legality of the September 15th licensing of four vaccines prior to any safety testing for what the government calls a “novel flu virus with pandemic potential.” The complaint alleges that the government failed to follow its own rules and applicable legislation in rushing the vaccine approvals in the absence of any of the requisite minimum scientifically sound and appropriate testing for both safety and effectiveness as required by law since 1964.

Link to Complaint: http://www.healthfreedomusa.org/?page_id=3619
Link to Brief: http://www.healthfreedomusa.org/?page_id=3624
Link to Action eAlert: http://www.healthfreedomusa.org/?p=3635
Link to “I’m Not a Pharma Serf” Action Item: http://bit.ly/4FxB4r


On July 13, 2009, according to a press release on the www.HHS.gov web site, the government purchased nearly a half billion dollar’s worth ($485 Million USD) of the deadly adjuvnt [sic] squalene, an oil in water adjuvant, blamed by many nongovernmental physicians as a “Gulf War Syndrome” causative agent in more than 25% of the soldiers who were subjected to an experimental anthrax vaccine, Vaccine A, containing squalene.

Now, their whole argument seems based on an irrational fear of squalene, which is disscussed in depth in this thread.
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=155500

To quote NobbyNobbs:

I can't speak for the rest, but I happen to know that concerning ALS servicemen in general, as well as policemen and firemen, are twice as likely to have the disease whether they've had squalene or not.

I look forward to the legal smackdown.

[Travis]

I wonder how they will justify them being "unnecessary?" Are these those people who think exercise and good diet are all you need to be immune to any virus?

[Eos of the Eons]

That is what they teach in woo woo school. Your body is perfect unless you don't eat right and exercise properly. It's your fault if viruses infect you, so you don't need a vaccine to protect you cuz you derserve to suffer for not living right.

My microbiology and anatomy courses taught me something completely different, and genetics tied it all together. Vaccines are the most awesome preventative measure ever, but we've been spoiled by them. People don't any longer realize what the nastiest viruses can actually do to them any more.

We should bring smallpox back, and let the antivaxxers who figure they live right see if they can catch it.

[Eos of the Eons]

Oh. This is also just a publicity stunt for Null et al. I hope they rot in hell for it, but alas, people with more power than I will NOT release the smallpox on those idiots.

[Dr. Imago]

I'm seeking an Emergency Injunction against Rush Limbaugh's radio program to prevent the distribution of what I believe is illegal, unnecessary and dangerous information that seeks to incite civil unrest and disorder.

I'm seeking an Emergency Injunction against McDonald's corporation to prevent the distribution of what I believe are illegal, unnecessary and dangerous foodstuffs that are substantially contributing to the obesity epidemic in the United States.

I'm seeking an Emergency Injunction against the National Association of Evangelicals to prevent the distribution of what I believe is illegal, unnecessary and dangerous misinformation pertaining to numerous belief systems.

Because, you see, it only matters what I, and people like me, think and believe, which necessarily supersedes everything else and should stand regardless of actual facts. And, because I firmly believe no one should have access to those above things, I can use the wonderful jurisprudence system in the U.S., provided I continue to have means to access it via the various pro bono lawyers at my disposal who agree with me, to attempt to further my political cause.

The best part about this action is that the worst thing that can happen to me by trying to seeking to have these injunctions enforced is that the judge will say "no". And, this is okay because I'll still get a lot of political mileage from seeking these injunctions and a lot of the general public who are easily swayed will remember this and think twice before doing those things.

Either way, I'll win.

~Dr. Imago

[zerospeaks]

Your body is perfect unless you don't eat right and exercise properly. It's your fault if viruses infect you, so you don't need a vaccine to protect you cuz you derserve to suffer for not living right.

Yeah... I am living proof against this. I probably do everything possible to mess up my body and I am healthy as a horse. I type this as I put out my cig, crack open another beer, and I am debating if I should eat another pound of bacon as a snack.

The only exercise I get is sex. Although I should admit, if I keep up this lifestyle much longer I probably wont get any of that.

[Eos of the Eons]

Yeah... I am living proof against this. I probably do everything possible to mess up my body and I am healthy as a horse. I type this as I put out my cig, crack open another beer, and I am debating if I should eat another pound of bacon as a snack.

The only exercise I get is sex. Although I should admit, if I keep up this lifestyle much longer I probably wont get any of that.
So, you never get the flu? Ever? Cuz, according to THEM, this is why you would get it, so ha ha neener neener, come to us when you wanna detox!

[zerospeaks]

I had the flu once when I was like 13.
It really sucked. I felt like I was going to die.
Other then that I have a very mild anxiety disorder, I think I got it from experimenting with so many drugs in high school. The really hard drugs too, like meth.

I am vaccinated against pretty much everything.
The flu vaccine is the only thing I don't get regularly.
I DO get it when flu trends seem to be high in my area. There is a swine flu outbreak where I live right now, so I am going to get the vax.

Everything checked out great with me over the last year, stress test was great, EKG was great, all of my blood work, in fact my doctor said my liver seemed to be in "fantastic shape".
The only thing is my cholesterol seems to be a bit high.
Doc said if I chilled out on the alcohol it would go to normal.

And I am not joking... I totally ate another pound of bacon after posting earlier.

My diet is about 80% meat. Has been since I was 17 years old. For some reason I was just born with a craving for meat.

I get checked thoroughly because of my "lifestyle" choices.
I do know that I will need to calm down and quit smoking and drinking soon though. However so far (not to tempt fate) I am as healthy as I can be.

So ya... those people are nuts.

-Edit-
Oh yeah forgot to say. My BMI is great! Maybe a tid bit low.

[Eos of the Eons]

Bah, you're full of HORRID toxins and will drop dead soon, ha ha!

Funny how the body is able to handle a lot, having a liver that detoxes you better than any colon cleanse ever will! Of course, get viral hepatitis and your liver is toast.
These people don't have enough respect for the microbes that have been around far longer than we have.

[zerospeaks]

Oh man do I agree with you!
I saw a fellow worker get HEP D from a tatoo he got.

They caught it really early because he sobered up after the tattoo and was scared for weeks that he contracted something so he went and got checked.

This man went from perfectly healthy to yellow skin, walking skeleton, and pissing blood in 3 weeks. They were putting him in the ground 1 month after he discovered he had it.

I actually remember this man (one of the last days he was well enough to come to work) look at me and say. "I wish I had gotten the Hep B vaccine, I would have lived to see my girl grow up"

Not enough stories like this are told. There is too much nonsense being spewed out there right now.

[Eos of the Eons]

Oh, those stories of actual deaths by viruses are just scare tactics by "big pharma" doncha know. Oh, and he clearly didn't live right if he got a nasty toxic tattoo! So, IF he died, then he didn't detox properly after getting the tattoo. Viruses are cute and fuzzy and a natural part of gut flora (so says the nutters at smotheringcommune that banned me for saying that viruses aren't a natural part of gut flora).

[BenBurch]

Your BMI is low because of all the meat. Atkins effect.

[zerospeaks]

Your BMI is low because of all the meat. Atkins effect.

Well I don't seem to have protein poisoning so... yum yum! More meat please!

Viruses are cute and fuzzy and a natural part of gut flora

Forgive me if this is off topic and sounds a little nuts. I may be mistaken about this so let me know.

I listened to a lecture at UAB a few years back and I could have sworn that the guy said that some scientist had put forward the idea that some viruses could possibly be of extraterrestrial origin.
I wish I had paid more attention. But if true, that sure would knock out the "viruses are just part of nature" idea.

[jsfisher]

Is anyone qualified to comment on the legal merits of the case?

[zerospeaks]

Is anyone qualified to comment on the legal merits of the case?

I'm not qualified but in my opinion it has no merit.
They would have to show evidence that the FDA didn't do it's job first before a judge would even listen to the case. Right?
Since the FDA approves such vaccines before they can come into america and be used.

It's like fighting the cop who gave you a ticket with radar in court. You need to establish the radar was wrong. The court normally will not listen to such arguments because they depend on the radar as evidence. The FDA being the radar in my analogy.

[-=Vagrant=-]

Squalene a deadly poison? Then why are all natural squalene products in such high regard? For example the purified Pure Squalene. (http://astronutrition.com/pure-squalene-from-shark-liver-oil.html)

Benefits and Uses
• enhances the immune system and strengthens the resistance to cancer
• benefits wound healing
• used in cosmetics to soften skin and reduce facial wrinkles
• supports skin health
• aids dry skin
• boosts energy and helps lower cholesterol levels
• revitalizes weakened body cells and helps revive cell generation
• anti-aging properties

[jsfisher]

I'm not qualified but in my opinion it has no merit.
They would have to show evidence that the FDA didn't do it's job first before a judge would even listen to the case. Right?
Since the FDA approves such vaccines before they can come into america and be used.

It's like fighting the cop who gave you a ticket with radar in court. You need to establish the radar was wrong. The court normally will not listen to such arguments because they depend on the radar as evidence. The FDA being the radar in my analogy.

Your analogy is faulty. The obligation to establish the correctness of the radar falls to the police officer, not the defendant.

Be that as it may, the petition isn't challenging the safety or effectiveness of the vaccine per se; it is asserting the FDA did not follow the procedures required by law and regulation for the approval process.

[zerospeaks]

it is asserting the FDA did not follow the procedures required by law and regulation for the approval process.

That is a really tough fight in my opinion.

[jsfisher]

That is a really tough fight in my opinion.

Why do you think that?

[zerospeaks]

Back to the radar analogy. I have had this happen.
The cop stands there and says, "yep radar was tuned, ceritified, I have my license, I know how to use it, and it says this guy was speeding."

The FDA will do the same thing if it goes to a hearing.
But it wont go to a hearing because the judge will except the FDA is doing it's job unless he see's evidence in the injunction to bring that into question.

Normally you would be right that the burden of proof lies on the FDA, only the FDA has a track record of showing in court that it does indeed do it's job.

We can argue how well it does it's job, but the FDA has minimum standards of acceptability for such a thing as this vax. The judge would need evidence that the vax does not meet these standards and THEN that the FDA did not examine those standards, (or did examine them and just said "argh matey! We be rebels!).

I don't know why rebels sound like pirates.

[zerospeaks]

and remember.... this is only some of the things the judge will consider before he even considers to officially "hear" this case.

It is an uphill battle. Like suing the IRS for wrongfully enforcing taxes.

[jsfisher]

Back to the radar analogy....


Unlike the case of with the radar, where we need to hear from the officer that he did follow the tuning procedures and is properly trained to use the radar, the process the FDA followed in approving the vaccine is a matter of public record.

The petition compares and contrasts that public record of what the FDA did with what the law says it should have done. A one-sided debate, for sure, and it will be interesting to see the government's response, but the allegations are not empty. That doesn't mean the allegations have merit, however; and I was hoping someone could comment on the merit of the legal argument in the petition for injunction.

[jsfisher]

We can argue how well it does it's job, but the FDA has minimum standards of acceptability for such a thing as this vax. The judge would need evidence that the vax does not meet these standards and THEN that the FDA did not examine those standards, (or did examine them and just said "argh matey! We be rebels!).

I don't know why rebels sound like pirates.


Not true at all. The challenge is not whether the vaccine meets any standards for safety or effectiveness. It is all about whether the FDA followed the legally required steps it needs to follow to approve the vaccine.

The petition is not about science; it is about process, and that's what the judge would be reviewing.

[zerospeaks]

Well I haven't read the filing. So it was just me speculating.

[jsfisher]

Well I haven't read the filing. So it was just me speculating.

Understood.

This link (http://www.healthfreedomusa.org/?page_id=3619) taken from the opening post gets you the basic filing. Much of it made my eyes glaze over, but it is not too hard to get the gist.

[jsfisher]

By the way, a New York State Supreme Court* justice has granted a temporary injunction against the state mandate for seasonal and H1N1 flu vaccinations for health-care workers. The argument is completely different at the state level from the federal, but it is the same basic cast of characters involved.

http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=853738&category=STATE





*The State Supreme Court is something of a misnomer. It is not the highest state court.

[Dr. Imago]

Normally you would be right that the burden of proof lies on the FDA, only the FDA has a track record of showing in court that it does indeed do it's job.

Not quite (and not to start a semantics argument)...

The FDA actually acts more like a court. The "burden of proof" is actually on the manufacturer. The FDA simply "adjudicates" and hands down a "verdict" on the arguments offered by the manufacturer as to why the new therapy should be approved. They may ask for more "evidence" before making a final ruling, but they are not attempting to "prove" anything.

The ultimate goal, for the FDA, is simply to determine whether or not the benefit of a new therapy outweighs its risk to the population. They weigh what's presented to them, determine whether or not that is adequate to make that determination, and then either give a "yeah" or "nay" vote as to whether or not that manufacturer can effectively have a "license" market that new therapy.

That's all the FDA really is: a licensing agency. Nothing more.

And, then after approval and the commencement of marketing by the manufacturer, DDMAC (http://www.fda.gov/AboutFDA/CentersOffices/CDER/ucm090142.htm) continues to actively monitor the ongoing "license" during the post-marketing period. In other words, this is a dynamic process (which is what many people don't realize).

~Dr. Imago