JFK and Oswald

[grandthefttoaster]

My friend who is a gun nut thinks that it would be impossibe for Oswald to acurately shoot JFK in the time they said he did. He thinks that the Carcano rifle sucks, and the distance is too far. Is there a video of the assaination being sucessfully replicated as closely as possible?

[JoeyDonuts]

Penn and Teller did a fairly good re-creation.

It's been modeled several other times, and each time the consensus was that it was a very doable shot for a trained marksman, which Oswald was.

[bluesjnr]

There are loads on Youtube, including the P&T example mentioned above. You need to find friends with more recent CT's.

[JoeyDonuts]

Your friend sounds like one of those "official story just doesn't sound right to me" conspiracy believers.

Unless he owns a Carcano of the same model Oswald used, and is at least as experienced as Oswald was with the rifle, his opinion doesn't really count for anything, no matter how knowledgeable he might be.

[grandthefttoaster]

If I remember, the Penn and Teller episode just showed Penn hitting a target in the right timeframe, I don't think the distance was the same and it wasn't moving. I'd like to find the closeset recreation there is, with a moving target at the right distance.

My friend doesn't own a Carcano, he is just one of those guys who thinks he knows everything there is about guns. He doesn't care about anyone's opinion of the quality of the Carcano, or Oswalds skills, or the difficulty of the shot, he just has made up his mind.

[bluesjnr]

If I remember, the Penn and Teller episode just showed Penn hitting a target in the right timeframe, I don't think the distance was the same and it wasn't moving. I'd like to find the closeset recreation there is, with a moving target at the right distance.

My friend doesn't own a Carcano, he is just one of those guys who thinks he knows everything there is about guns. He doesn't care about anyone's opinion of the quality of the Carcano, or Oswalds skills, or the difficulty of the shot, he just has made up his mind.


That being the case then refer to Mr J Donuts opinion above.

[bluesjnr]

This is an interesting article (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/jfk8/mc.htm) on an experiment conducted with a variety of experienced "shooters" from none to expert.

It is apparently difficult, but not impossible -- at least with only minimal practice with the firearm used -- to fire 3 shots, at least two of which score "kills", with an elapsed time of 1.7 seconds or less between any two shots, even though in the limited testing conducted, no shooter achieved this degree of proficiency.

(3) It is not difficult to fire two consecutive shots from a Mannlicher-Carcano within 1.66 seconds, and to "point aim", if not carefully "sight" it, on the target of each shot. Cornwell fired the rifle twice in 1.2 seconds, and I fired it twice within 1.5 seconds. In both cases the second shot missed, but was close to the silhouette. In fact, my second shot only missed the silhouette by approximately 2". [4]

(4) There was ample time for Oswald to have fired 3 shots, hitting with two of them, within 8.31 seconds. All series of 3 shots were fired in less than 8 seconds, two were fired in less than 7 seconds, two in less than 6, and two in less than 5.

[grandthefttoaster]

I'm looking at videos of people fireing Carcanos right now. Remember, though, he thinks that it is important that it was a moving target.

[grandthefttoaster]

This is the closest one i've found so far, but not a moving target:

_RX2phbWmgA&feature=related

[Harpo]

Just show him this (hilarious) video:

*** . ifc . com/videos/new-world-order-clip-2 . php

(Replace the *'s with w's and remove the spaces to view)

If fat idiot like Alex Jones can squeeze off 5 rounds then a trained Marine like Oswald could get 3 accurate shots off at a distance of 80 yards or so.

As a side note, I just love the blatant lies in that video - makes me chuckle every time I see it.

[9/11 Chewy Defense]

Did anyone forget Charles Whitman in Texas?

He shot at people at a greater distance than Oswald.

So it can be done if you're a good shot and marksman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman

[grandthefttoaster]

http://www.ifc.com/videos/new-world-order-clip-2.php

Yeah I've seen that before, it's hilarious.

[JoeyDonuts]

Did anyone forget Charles Whitman in Texas?

WHAT? None of you dumbasses know?

[Foolmewunz]

It's been a long time since I played Who Shot JFK - can someone remind me where they came up with the time of under 2.8 seconds per shot.

If the total time elapsed was 8.3 something, then that means he had more than four seconds between shots 1 and 2 and then 2 and 3 (he would've had the round chambered and been ready to fire the first shot, I assume).

I'm sure I saw this addressed somewhere in "Doh moments for conspiracists" or some similarly titled article, but I cannot locate it.

[R.Mackey]

Also, if you've ever been formally trained as a rifleman, they teach you a rhythm known as the "Rifleman's Cadence." That's the time it takes to cycle the action, settle back into your natural point of aim, acquire sights, verify alignment, respiratory pause, and squeeze the trigger.

With practice, it comes out to about 3 or 4 seconds.

Exactly the timing that Osawld used.

Funny how that works, isn't it?

[akama1]

If the total time elapsed was 8.3 something, then that means he had more than four seconds between shots 1 and 2 and then 2 and 3 (he would've had the round chambered and been ready to fire the first shot, I assume).


It's Amazing how many people forget that he had all the time in the world to sight and fire his first shot. As you point out he only had to chamber and fire 2 bullets in the 8 seconds, And he already had the range and aim set from his first shot

[timhau]

Unless he owns a Carcano of the same model Oswald used, and is at least as experienced as Oswald was with the rifle, his opinion doesn't really count for anything, no matter how knowledgeable he might be.

Don't forget, he also needs to know what Dealey Plaza is like. I visited the Sixth Floor Museum (http://www.jfk.org/) at the former schoolbook depository years ago, and I was struck by how minuscule the plaza really is. Oswald really didn't have to make a long-range shot.

[JHawke]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqV-tNL0vbE&hl=da

Here's a video, showing some guy replicating the JFK Assasination. It's pretty much a perfect replica. 1 shot in the back, 1 shot missed, 1 shot in the head.
I know it is only a game, but it gives you a good idea about what Oswald needed to do.

[Pope130]

Don't forget, he also needs to know what Dealey Plaza is like. I visited the Sixth Floor Museum (http://www.jfk.org/) at the former schoolbook depository years ago, and I was struck by how minuscule the plaza really is. Oswald really didn't have to make a long-range shot.

I agree with timhau on this. If you want a clear idea of what happened you should visit Dallas. Dealey Plaza looks big in photographs, but on the ground it's a very tight space. The shot from the sixth floor (or any other of the alleged locations) would not be a difficult challenge.

[azazal]

Swing by the local video store, or hit up Discovery Channel's online store, get the Unsolved History episode on the JFK shooting. The recreate the shooting with a watermelon in the back of a convertible like the one JFK was in. Sharpshooter was up in a tower, same height and distance as Oswald, with a Carcano, same type of ammo, etc.. They did a pretty good job of recreating that day. Shooter was able to name the watermelon 1,2,3 without a problem, he even found that the last shot was actually the easiest. First shot was at a steeper downward angle and harder to line up, as JFK moved away, the angle lessened and made it easier to sight up the target. I believe he same episode addresses the "magic bullet" as well, they set-up dummies made from ballistic gel and skeletons is the same positions as JFK and Governor Connally. The test shot made all the same wounds and only varied in that the bullet bounced off the test Connally's thigh instead of embedding in the outer layers. Over all a very nice piece to have on hand when you want to show that Oswald did it and just how easy it was for him do it.

[Myron Proudfoot]

Swing by the local video store, or hit up Discovery Channel's online store, get the Unsolved History episode on the JFK shooting. The recreate the shooting with a watermelon in the back of a convertible like the one JFK was in. Sharpshooter was up in a tower, same height and distance as Oswald, with a Carcano, same type of ammo, etc.. They did a pretty good job of recreating that day. Shooter was able to name the watermelon 1,2,3 without a problem, he even found that the last shot was actually the easiest. First shot was at a steeper downward angle and harder to line up, as JFK moved away, the angle lessened and made it easier to sight up the target. I believe he same episode addresses the "magic bullet" as well, they set-up dummies made from ballistic gel and skeletons is the same positions as JFK and Governor Connally. The test shot made all the same wounds and only varied in that the bullet bounced off the test Connally's thigh instead of embedding in the outer layers. Over all a very nice piece to have on hand when you want to show that Oswald did it and just how easy it was for him do it.

thanks! I'll look up that video...

[pgwenthold]

Also, despite the claims above, he doesn't actually need to hit 2 out of 3 times. In fact, I'd like to hear a justification of that claim, because as far as I can tell, assuming he was aiming for the head, he actually missed 2 out of three times. The second shot was actually well (4 inches or so?) completey below the _target_. Not the bullseye, but the target itself.

Moreover, he only needed to hit the target once. So you can say, the conspirators are asking the wrong question. The question is not "could anyone reproduce what Oswald did" but "could Oswald have killed the president given his situation and the number of bullets?"

Remember, the answer to the question "Why did Oswald shoot 3 times" is "Because that is how many he needed to hit the target; if he would have hit him sooner, he woul dhave stopped. If he had needed more, he would have taken more"

It took Oswald three tries to hit the target. How is that a remarkable achievement?

[CurtC]

Oswald really didn't have to make a long-range shot.

My buddies who hunt sight-in their rifles at 300 yards, because it's a compromised medium distance that will work well enough for closer and farther shots.

The longest of the three shots Oswald took was less than 90 yards.

[commandlinegamer]

Would we even be having this discussion if Ruby hadn't shot Oswald?

[Eyeron]

No, there would still be the "magic bullet" controversy.

[aofl]

Also, if you've ever been formally trained as a rifleman, they teach you a rhythm known as the "Rifleman's Cadence." That's the time it takes to cycle the action, settle back into your natural point of aim, acquire sights, verify alignment, respiratory pause, and squeeze the trigger.

With practice, it comes out to about 3 or 4 seconds.

Exactly the timing that Osawld used.

Funny how that works, isn't it?

I want to be extremely clear about this, and I don't want to foment any conspiracy theories or put words in your mouth, but you are saying that the Military Industrial complex taught Oswald exactly how to kill our President.

:D

A
(Hmm, it was funnier in my head before I typed it in.)

[aofl]

Would we even be having this discussion if Ruby hadn't shot Oswald?

I think at some point Oswald would have caved and claimed responsibility. It was his nature to make himself seem important, and ultimately, the act of killing the President would have been too big a thing for him to continue denying.

Just my amateur psychoanalysis.

A

[8den]

Also the timeframe of 5.6 seconds is derived in part taking the first frame where a bullet hits, and dividing the number of frames between the first shot and last shot by 24. The number of frames a second for the average film camera.

But thats not accurate. Zapruder was using a handcranked clockwork spring loaded home movie camera. The frame rate of this camera is on average 16-18 frames a second. But as the spring winds down the frame rate decreases.

If we assume as is likely Oswald had the first round chambered, he has nearly 9 seconds to get off two more shots.

Finally if your friend is a gun nut, he'll know that Kennedy's car wasn't really going faster than walking speed, and Oswald was aiming at the car from a vertical axis, a much easier shot than a target moving along a vertical axis.

[pgwenthold]

Also the timeframe of 5.6 seconds is derived in part taking the first frame where a bullet hits, and dividing the number of frames between the first shot and last shot by 24. The number of frames a second for the average film camera.


Hmmm, I thought the 5.6 secs in the Warren report came from an incorrect assignment of the first shot? It was about when Posner's book came out that it became recognized that this shot was much earlier than the WC estimated, and that is when 8.3 started coming about.

Actually, didn't the WC call the magic bullet to be the first shot? They based it on the assumption that JFK was grabbing his neck, and there had to be some response time to doing that (in fact, it was a reflexive response, and occured with almost no response (the timing of the magic bullet is now assigned to Connely's "hat tilt")). So the WC had the magic bullet the first shot, and assumed there was one in-between that and the head-shot.

If you throw a 1 second or so response time in addition to the actual 4 or so seconds between the magic bullet and head shot, you come up with 5.6 seconds.

Maybe it wasn't the WC, but I have also heard this assessment.

[Hamradioguy]

Either CBS or PBS on NOVA (Can't recall which-Cronkite narrated the documentary however) actually created a track with a wheeled cart rolling at the same speed and slope as the presidential limo. Shooters both experienced and not had no problem hitting a human shaped target with a Carcano.

And Jim Moore in "Conspiracy of One" has an excellenet theory of which shots hit kennedy and when. And why he seemed to be reaqcting to his neck shot when it most likely was a reaction to the first shot which missed.

Anyone who thinks this was a tough shot need only to stand on the 6th floor of the TSBD and look down on Dealy Plaza to realize just how easy it really was.

[Ranb]

My friend who is a gun nut thinks that it would be impossibe for Oswald to acurately shoot JFK in the time they said he did. He thinks that the Carcano rifle sucks, and the distance is too far.

Does your gun nut friend have a 6.5mm carcano? I do. It is an old piece of crap just like the one Oswald allegedly used. The bore is black and pitted. It has a .269" bore that is so worn that the .264" bullets (like the ones LHO used) I loaded for it only move 1860 fps instead of the expected 2100 fps. It will only group about four inches at 100 yards which is not so good. The small fixed sights on mine zero at about 300 yards. Mounting a scope is not so easy. It has to mount a bit to the left and rotated 90 degrees to the left to allow use of the clip to load the cartridges. The 6.5mm Carcano rifle does suck.

That said, the bolt is very slick and fast as long as it has at least a tiny amount of oil on the inside rails. While it is not as slick as an Enfield, it is better than my savage and remington. The 160 grain FMJ bullets are long and skinny. They penetrate well and stay together even when hitting bone.

When I bought this rilfle to the range, it was a simple matter to hit a target at 100 yards with the scope or the sights. It is not hard to take a shot then follow up with two more in six seconds and hit the target. I can get off three shots in four seconds, but usually miss the target.

Whether or not Oswald did it alone I can not say for sure, but I'm sure it was well within the capabilities of any former Marine with a bolt action rifle like the carcano at short range. Why not invite him to the forum? I have read the words of those who call themselves "experts" with a rifle who claim those shots were impossible. They are selling themselves to support a fantasy.

Ranb

[grandthefttoaster]

Either CBS or PBS on NOVA (Can't recall which-Cronkite narrated the documentary however) actually created a track with a wheeled cart rolling at the same speed and slope as the presidential limo. Shooters both experienced and not had no problem hitting a human shaped target with a Carcano.

Is this the one?:

jk-_0BQRTkY

[grandthefttoaster]

Does your gun nut friend have a 6.5mm carcano? I do. It is an old piece of crap just like the one Oswald allegedly used. The bore is black and pitted. It has a .269" bore that is so worn that the .264" bullets (like the ones LHO used) I loaded for it only move 1860 fps instead of the expected 2100 fps. It will only group about four inches at 100 yards which is not so good. The small fixed sights on mine zero at about 300 yards. Mounting a scope is not so easy. It has to mount a bit to the left and rotated 90 degrees to the left to allow use of the clip to load the cartridges. The 6.5mm Carcano rifle does suck.

That said, the bolt is very slick and fast as long as it has at least a tiny amount of oil on the inside rails. While it is not as slick as an Enfield, it is better than my savage and remington. The 160 grain FMJ bullets are long and skinny. They penetrate well and stay together even when hitting bone.

When I bought this rilfle to the range, it was a simple matter to hit a target at 100 yards with the scope or the sights. It is not hard to take a shot then follow up with two more in six seconds and hit the target. I can get off three shots in four seconds, but usually miss the target.

Whether or not Oswald did it alone I can not say for sure, but I'm sure it was well within the capabilities of any former Marine with a bolt action rifle like the carcano at short range. Why not invite him to the forum? I have read the words of those who call themselves "experts" with a rifle who claim those shots were impossible. They are selling themselves to support a fantasy.

Ranb

He doesn't own a Carcano. I'm not sure if he has ever used one or not. When we had this conversation, I said something like "well, I've heard experts say it is possible" (I was talking more about the forensic science of how JFK's body reacted though). He laughed and said that experts didn't know anything about guns. I didn't get a chance to ask him how he knew all of the stuff about the Carcano. Probably just stuff from other self-proclaimed experts he meets at gun shows.

[Ranb]

When we had this conversation, I said something like "well, I've heard experts say it is possible" (I was talking more about the forensic science of how JFK's body reacted though).

I am not qualified enough to have any real opinion on what kind of damage a bullet will do to two bodies, but I know a FMJ bullet will penetrate very well. I am not surprised that it caused seven wounds.

Ranb

[grandthefttoaster]

I am not qualified enough to have any real opinion on what kind of damage a bullet will do to two bodies, but I know a FMJ bullet will penetrate very well. I am not surprised that it caused seven wounds.

Ranb

I don't think he has a problem with the "magic bullet" that went through JFK and the governor, but he wasn't so sure about the head going back and to the left. His main thing is that he dosn't think that Oswald had enough time to aim at a moving target and hit 2 it out of three times.

[Ranb]

His main thing is that he dosn't think that Oswald had enough time to aim at a moving target and hit 2 it out of three times.

What happened when he tried it out himself? He did try right? If he didn't, then he just wants to believe it was not possible and there really is no convincing him otherwise.

Ranb

[grandthefttoaster]

What happened when he tried it out himself? He did try right? If he didn't, then he just wants to believe it was not possible and there really is no convincing him otherwise.

Ranb

He is just basing this off his own knowledge and experience of guns and I guess maybe some random bullshot he hears off the street. If he mentions it again I might offer to show him some of the videos I've found, but otherwise I will just let it go. It is obviously some kind of ego thing that he thinks he is a gun expert.

[pgwenthold]

I don't think he has a problem with the "magic bullet" that went through JFK and the governor, but he wasn't so sure about the head going back and to the left. His main thing is that he dosn't think that Oswald had enough time to aim at a moving target and hit 2 it out of three times.

I'll repeat what I said above: Oswald DIDN'T hit his target 2 out of 3 times. The first missed completely (scattered off the tree, likely). The second came in below the target. The third caught the upper right part of the target.

I'll ask this for ranb, who said, "It is not hard to take a shot then follow up with two more in six seconds and hit the target." How big of a target are you talking about? 12 in diameter, or smaller or bigger?

[Ranb]

I'll ask this for ranb, who said, "It is not hard to take a shot then follow up with two more in six seconds and hit the target." How big of a target are you talking about? 12 in diameter, or smaller or bigger?

About a foot in diameter which is smaller than a man's torso but larger than the head. I was not using a human shaped target when I was trying out my carcano.

Ranb

[grandthefttoaster]

Ranb, what do you think of this video? I want to get a second opinion, because I would have no idea if the facts in it were wrong:

rGOQ2oebB2M&

[timhau]

I think at some point Oswald would have caved and claimed responsibility. It was his nature to make himself seem important, and ultimately, the act of killing the President would have been too big a thing for him to continue denying.

... which would not have prevented the birth of the JFK conspiracy industry. If you don't believe me, spend a few minutes in the 9/11 subforum.

[grandthefttoaster]

Swing by the local video store, or hit up Discovery Channel's online store, get the Unsolved History episode on the JFK shooting. The recreate the shooting with a watermelon in the back of a convertible like the one JFK was in. Sharpshooter was up in a tower, same height and distance as Oswald, with a Carcano, same type of ammo, etc.. They did a pretty good job of recreating that day. Shooter was able to name the watermelon 1,2,3 without a problem, he even found that the last shot was actually the easiest. First shot was at a steeper downward angle and harder to line up, as JFK moved away, the angle lessened and made it easier to sight up the target. I believe he same episode addresses the "magic bullet" as well, they set-up dummies made from ballistic gel and skeletons is the same positions as JFK and Governor Connally. The test shot made all the same wounds and only varied in that the bullet bounced off the test Connally's thigh instead of embedding in the outer layers. Over all a very nice piece to have on hand when you want to show that Oswald did it and just how easy it was for him do it.

It looks like there are several episodes of Unsolved History about JFK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unsolved_History_episodes

Unfortunatly the only one on google video is the magic bullet one.

[R.Mackey]

Ranb, what do you think of this video? I want to get a second opinion, because I would have no idea if the facts in it were wrong:

For what it's worth, the handling properties of the rifle as described in the video look fine to me.

Although in their 1.8 second three-shot extravaganza, it looks like all three shots are near misses. :p No matter, though. A head shot at ~ 50 m is about 16 minutes of arc, which is child's play. The standard we practice to at this introductory rifle class (http://www.appleseedinfo.org/) is 4 MOA, or a 1 inch target at 25 m. Even the completely uninitiated sometimes hit this mark. I can't even recall the last time I missed such an easy shot as the one presented to Oswald.

The 6.5x52 caliber round fired by this rifle was held to be "low powered" because, compared to other battle rifles firing .303 British, .30-'06, 7.62x54R, or 8mm Mauser, it's a long and slender bullet. When firing military ball ammunition -- meaning it has a complete copper jacket around the lead core, which resists deformation on impact, as mandated by treaty -- this slender bullet overpenetrates like crazy. As a result, it was less effective on enemy troops than bullets fielded by other countries, because it was more likely to poke a small hole in someone's chest than to tumble or fragment or, at worst, poke a larger hole.

Such overpenetrating behavior is what gave us the "magic bullet." The trajectory of the third shot is exactly the kind of thing an expert expects when firing ball ammo of this caliber into a small group of people.

As usual, the "anomalies" found by conspiracy theorists are actually features, presuming one knows what one is talking about. And as usual, the conspiracy theorists don't, instead relying upon "common sense," viz. uninformed speculation, that turns out to be inaccurate.

[Dave Rogers]

Would we even be having this discussion if Ruby hadn't shot Oswald?

Quite probably. If Oswald had confessed, somehow negotiated a life sentence instead of the death penalty, written a book called "How I Killed President Kennedy All On My Own" and gone on chat shows from his prison cell every year on the anniversary of the assassination to repeat the message that he did it all on his own, the conspiracy theorists would simply claim he'd been brainwashed by MKULTRA just like Sirhan Sirhan was.

Dave

[bluesjnr]

I don't think he has a problem with the "magic bullet" that went through JFK and the governor, but he wasn't so sure about the head going back and to the left. His main thing is that he dosn't think that Oswald had enough time to aim at a moving target and hit 2 it out of three times.


The head movement is attributable to the "propulsion effect" of the round exiting the skull. JFK was shot from behind therefore the head "kicks back" towards the direction the round came from as it exits.

There is a demo on YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzyw7AcHbuY) conducted by, you've guessed it, Penn and Teller. Here you will see a melon being shot that then falls towards the shooter and not away as many would expect.

[CurtC]

The head movement is attributable to the "propulsion effect" of the round exiting the skull. JFK was shot from behind therefore the head "kicks back" towards the direction the round came from as it exits.

I don't doubt that the jet effect was some part of it, but not all. The back-and-to-the-left motion didn't seem to be his head flung that way, pulling his torso with it. His torso seemed to go that way all on its own, indicating a back muscle spasm caused by massive trauma to his central nervous system.

[bluesjnr]

I don't doubt that the jet effect was some part of it, but not all. The back-and-to-the-left motion didn't seem to be his head flung that way, pulling his torso with it. His torso seemed to go that way all on its own, indicating a back muscle spasm caused by massive trauma to his central nervous system.

I've heard that theory but I don't buy it as I can't see it that way. To me the whole body moves as a result of the shot. The round entered below the crown and to the upper right of the skull. It exits at the upper right quarter; the body movement IMO is entirely contiguous with this, taking the propulsion effect into account. It is amazing just how much movement an unexpected blow to the head can cause.

[defaultdotxbe]

I want to be extremely clear about this, and I don't want to foment any conspiracy theories or put words in your mouth, but you are saying that the Military Industrial complex taught Oswald exactly how to kill our President.

:D

A
(Hmm, it was funnier in my head before I typed it in.)
i think stanley kubric had the same idea :p

HARTMAN:Oswald got off three rounds with an old Italian bolt action rifle in only six seconds and scored two hits, including a head shot! Do any of you people know where these individuals learned to shoot? Private Joker?

JOKER: Sir, in the Marines, sir!

HARTMAN: In the Marines! Outstanding! Those individuals showed what one motivated marine and his rifle can do! And before you ladies leave my island, you will be able to do the same thing!

[Ranb]

Ranb, what do you think of this video? I want to get a second opinion, because I would have no idea if the facts in it were wrong:

1. I agree the bolt is very easy and quick to operate. It is only a bit slower than a steyr straight pull and a bit less smooth than an Enfield.

2. It seems he hit the metal plate three times in about three seconds. Some of the other quick shots seemed to be near hits.

3. I was not able to tell for certain if he hit at 650 yards from this video.

4. My carcano is about 34 inches long when taken apart.

5. I am able to assemble mine using only a dime.

6. I am not able to determine how effective the carcano was as a military rifle, but it was adopted and used in various guises for a long time.

7. While the carcano is not as powerful as most world war one and two battle rifles, it certainly has enough power and accuracy to kill at medium (<600 yards) range

8. I have never seen any evidence that the rifle LHO used had any gas blow back problems.

9. The carcano like most rifles need not have oil on the exterior to function properly. A light coat of oil only serves to reduce corrosion. A tiny bit of oil on the bolt and other internal moving parts is all that is needed to ensure slick operation.

10. I have no opinion on head movement.

Ranb

[Meadmaker]

Hmmm, I thought the 5.6 secs in the Warren report came from an incorrect assignment of the first shot? It was about when Posner's book came out that it became recognized that this shot was much earlier than the WC estimated, and that is when 8.3 started coming about.

Actually, didn't the WC call the magic bullet to be the first shot? They based it on the assumption that JFK was grabbing his neck, and there had to be some response time to doing that (in fact, it was a reflexive response, and occured with almost no response (the timing of the magic bullet is now assigned to Connely's "hat tilt")). So the WC had the magic bullet the first shot, and assumed there was one in-between that and the head-shot.

If you throw a 1 second or so response time in addition to the actual 4 or so seconds between the magic bullet and head shot, you come up with 5.6 seconds.

Maybe it wasn't the WC, but I have also heard this assessment.

The Warren Commission did not actually say whether the "magic bullet" was the first shot or the second shot. They discussed the possibility that the miss could have been the first, second, or even third, shot. However, the way they wrote the text makes it clear they were leaning strongly toward the belief that it was the first shot. They were strongly influenced by the fact that the first shot would have been loaded and aimed, thus being a relatively easy shot. It seemed unlikely that Oswald could possibly have missed not just the President on an aimed shot, but also missed the whole darned car!

They were also influenced by the testimony of James Tague. He was hit by something, either a bullet fragment or piece of chipped off pavement, that had to come from a missed shot. He believed there was at least one shot fired before he was hit in the cheek.

If the first shot struck the President and Governor Connally, and the third shot was the head shot, the second shot must have been the miss, and that gives a time frame of somewhere around 5.6 seconds for the three shots, based on when it appears the President was struck by the "magic bullet".

However, subsequent analysis has shown, with near complete certainty, that the first shot did indeed miss completely.

The film shows that at one time, a little girl who was running changes direction and looks toward the window. At the same time, the President leans suddenly to the right, and Governor Connally starts to turn to look over his shoulder. Seconds later, the President straightens up, and starts raising his hands. At that point, the car is obscured by a sign. When it emerges, the President is clutching his throat, and the Governor is slumping. Seconds later, the President's head explodes from the third shot. This whole time frame was verified by using modern CAD systems and accurate geometric modelling, not available to Arlen Specter in 1964, to show when the car and people were in the proper alignment to be hit by the "magic bullet".

The total elapsed time is 8.3 seconds.

Subsequent analysis showed that at the moment when the girl stops running, the limousine would have been partially obscured by some tree branches. The first bullet presumably struck a tree branch and was deflected. A fragment or some sort of debris struck James Tague in the cheek. His subsequent recollection was mistaken. (CTers will insist that's impossible. Of course, Governor Connally insists that when he was struck, he was turning because he had heard the sound of a gunshot.)


So, three shots. 8.3 seconds. Two hits. The farthest of the three shots was 88 yards. I know people who could do it with a bow and arrow.

[BazBear]

For what it's worth, the handling properties of the rifle as described in the video look fine to me.

Although in their 1.8 second three-shot extravaganza, it looks like all three shots are near misses. :p No matter, though. A head shot at ~ 50 m is about 16 minutes of arc, which is child's play. The standard we practice to at this introductory rifle class (http://www.appleseedinfo.org/) is 4 MOA, or a 1 inch target at 25 m. Even the completely uninitiated sometimes hit this mark. I can't even recall the last time I missed such an easy shot as the one presented to Oswald.

The 6.5x52 caliber round fired by this rifle was held to be "low powered" because, compared to other battle rifles firing .303 British, .30-'06, 7.62x54R, or 8mm Mauser, it's a long and slender bullet. When firing military ball ammunition -- meaning it has a complete copper jacket around the lead core, which resists deformation on impact, as mandated by treaty -- this slender bullet overpenetrates like crazy. As a result, it was less effective on enemy troops than bullets fielded by other countries, because it was more likely to poke a small hole in someone's chest than to tumble or fragment or, at worst, poke a larger hole.

Such overpenetrating behavior is what gave us the "magic bullet." The trajectory of the third shot is exactly the kind of thing an expert expects when firing ball ammo of this caliber into a small group of people.

As usual, the "anomalies" found by conspiracy theorists are actually features, presuming one knows what one is talking about. And as usual, the conspiracy theorists don't, instead relying upon "common sense," viz. uninformed speculation, that turns out to be inaccurate.

Your point about 6.5 x 52 is well put. Compared to the .30 caliber-ish cartridges you talk about, it is "lower powered". But it's STILL an effective varmint rifle to this day, and my step father killed his first white-tailed deer with this round and rifle (and iron sights). It's plenty "high powered" enough indeed.

Oswald also had just the right scope power for the range IMO. 4x power at less than 90 yards? JFK would have been reasonably fat in his sights.

I'm no expert shooter (well I was an Army sharpshooter, middle rating; but Oswald DID shoot expert in the Marines) but these are shots IMO anyone with any good training and the will could make. He had two more in the magazine as well. He knew he had finally hit his mark, and then he boogied out of his sniper spot.

BTW I used to be a (slightly) JFK CTist, but I finally let go of the BS and started looking at the real evidence with a neutral eye. I'd heard so many JFK CT stuff over my life (mainly from my father, but I got him to come around before his passing...and he wasn't a CTist in general if you are wondering) that until my 30s I thought there was more to it than the "official" story. If there is, Castro put Oswald up to it *HUGE WINK*;).

[Meadmaker]

The Warren Commission did not actually say whether the "magic bullet" was the first shot or the second shot. They discussed the possibility that the miss could have been the first, second, or even third, shot. However, the way they wrote the text makes it clear they were leaning strongly toward the belief that it was the first shot.

Pronoun reference correction. Bad grammar alert. The Warren Commission was leaning toward the belief that the "magic bullet" was the first shot, and the miss was the second shot.

[Meadmaker]

If there is, Castro put Oswald up to it *HUGE WINK*;).

I believe it was David Belin, one of the investigators on the team, who wrote a book that more or less persuasively argued that Oswald was trying to impress Castro. He had been turned down on his attempt to move to Cuba, but by golly he was sure that killing the President would impress the heck out of Fidel, and let him move to the worker's paradise.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

My friend who is a gun nut thinks that it would be impossibe for Oswald to acurately shoot JFK in the time they said he did. He thinks that the Carcano rifle sucks, and the distance is too far. Is there a video of the assaination being sucessfully replicated as closely as possible?

CBS and Dan Rather did it about 30 years ago.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I think at some point Oswald would have caved and claimed responsibility. It was his nature to make himself seem important, and ultimately, the act of killing the President would have been too big a thing for him to continue denying.

Just my amateur psychoanalysis.

A

Well, he was only alive for 2 more days.

[coalesce]

No, there would still be the "magic bullet" controversy.

What controversy?

Michael

[HeyLeroy]

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=61416

I'd read a book called "Mortal Error" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortal_Error) that surmised the fatal head shot came accidentally from an AR-15 rifle carried by a Secret Service agent in the car behind Kennedys.

The book was actually quite persuasive; I find ballistics expert Howard Donahue's theory to be quite plausible.

I'll dig up the book.

[Toke]

I just had to check, the AR-15 is from 1958, so ok there.
There are a few other problems, like firing a rifle at the car in front of you without anyone in the crowd or on the seat next to you noticing.

[HeyLeroy]

Quite a few people reported hearing a gunshot coming from close to the presidential limo; several reported smelling gunsmoke.

(2) Winston G. Lawson, United States Secret Service, statement (1st December, 1963)

At the corner of Houston and Elm Streets I verified with Chief Curry that we were about five minutes from the Trade Mart and gave this signal over my portable White House Communications radio. We were just approaching a railroad overpass and I checked to see if a police officer was in position there and that no one was directly over our path. I noticed a police officer but also noticed a few persons on the bridge and made motions to have these persons removed from over our path. As the lead car was passing under this bridge I heard the first loud, sharp report and in more rapid succession two more sounds like gunfire. I could see persons to the left of the motorcade vehicles running away. I noticed Agent Hickey standing up in the follow-up car with the automatic weapon and first thought he had fired at someone. Both the President's car and our lead car rapidly accelerated almost simultaneously. I heard a report over the two-way radio that we should proceed to the nearest hospital. I noticed Agent Hill hanging on to the rear of the President's vehicle. A motorcycle escort officer pulled alongside our lead car and said the President had been shot. Chief Curry gave a signal over his radio for police to converge on the area of the incident. I requested Chief Curry to have the hospital contacted that we were on the way. Our lead car assisted the motorcycles in escorting the President's vehicle to Parkland Hospital.
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKhickey.htm

[Toke]

I noticed Agent Hickey standing up in the follow-up car with the automatic weapon and first thought he had fired at someone.
Not an unreasonable assumption, what about people in the same car, wouldn't they have noticed if he actually fired the rifle?

[HeyLeroy]

I'll dig up the book and find the testimony of the other agents in the followup car. I don't know if you patronize your local library but if you can find the book it's worth a read.

Donahue wasn't a CTist.

Based on Donahue's standing as a ballistics expert he was contacted (among others) by CBS to try and duplicate the "Oswald took three shots" scenario. A mock-up of the plaza was built, the gunmen were perched on a tower and a target was towed by. Donahue was able to place three shots on target in the allotted time.

He was later asked to write an article supporting the Warren Commission report; that's when he started looking into the assassination from a ballistics standpoint.

ETA: There was also this:

From LBJ to Frank Cormier, White House correspondent, in his book LBJ: The Way He Was(Garden City, NY: Doubleday & Co., 1977, pgs 19-20):

If I ever get killed, it won't be because of an assassin. It'll be some Secret Service agent who trips himself up and his gun goes off. They're worse than trigger-happy Texas sheriffs.

[grandthefttoaster]

CBS and Dan Rather did it about 30 years ago.

Do you mean this documentary?:

ruuR-S4RfO0

edit: it dosn't look like the right documentary.

[grandthefttoaster]

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=61416

I'd read a book called "Mortal Error" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortal_Error) that surmised the fatal head shot came accidentally from an AR-15 rifle carried by a Secret Service agent in the car behind Kennedys.

The book was actually quite persuasive; I find ballistics expert Howard Donahue's theory to be quite plausible.

I'll dig up the book.

And it was just a coincidence that they found another gun in the school book depository, and the owner ran off and killed a cop?

[Ranb]

I'd read a book called "Mortal Error" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortal_Error) that surmised the fatal head shot came accidentally from an AR-15 rifle carried by a Secret Service agent in the car behind Kennedys.

Some people do not like that book. One person is Hickey, the agent accused in the book of shooting JFK. http://archive.southcoasttoday.com/daily/08-96/08-23-96/a06wn045.htm http://web.archive.org/web/20031109023919/http://www.hannibal.net/stories/020698/jfk.html

Ranb

[pgwenthold]

However, subsequent analysis has shown, with near complete certainty, that the first shot did indeed miss completely.


IIRC, the argument is that if the first shot occured when they say it did (those who have done the subsequent analysis; I don't want to misgive anyone credit; it started coming out about the time Posner's book did, but there were a couple of groups saying it, and it doesn't matter who said it first), then there were branches of a tree that got in the way. This is why the first shot missed, after scattering off the tree.

However, I also seem to remember that Teague claimed that he was not hit by the first shot, and it was likely fragments from the third shot that hit him.

[pgwenthold]

Pronoun reference correction. Bad grammar alert. The Warren Commission was leaning toward the belief that the "magic bullet" was the first shot, and the miss was the second shot.

Yes, I think that is what I also said above. Their timing on that shot was based on an assumed reaction time for Kennedy to grab his throat, which was presumed to take a little bit. However, when it was recognized that it was not a reaction but a reflex, that moved the timing of that shot later (and it was assigned to the frame before the Connolly hat tilt)

[Meadmaker]

IIRC, the argument is that if the first shot occured when they say it did (those who have done the subsequent analysis; I don't want to misgive anyone credit; it started coming out about the time Posner's book did, but there were a couple of groups saying it, and it doesn't matter who said it first), then there were branches of a tree that got in the way. This is why the first shot missed, after scattering off the tree.

However, I also seem to remember that Teague claimed that he was not hit by the first shot, and it was likely fragments from the third shot that hit him.

Yeah, pretty much. Tague (Teague?) did not believe he was hit by the third shot. I've read that it could have been a bone fragment from the third shot, or an eyewitness mistake, and that he was actually hit on the first shot, but didn't realize it until some time later. If I recall, the third bullet was recovered almost whole, although severely deformed from the impact.

It's amazing, and in some ways sad, how much is known about that day.

[Meadmaker]

Pronoun reference correction. Bad grammar alert. The Warren Commission was leaning toward the belief that the "magic bullet" was the first shot, and the miss was the second shot.

Yes, I think that is what I also said above.

This little tidbit was interesting to me because I recall that it was one of the first things that opened my eyes to the ways of conspiracy theories. I was a young man in the late seventies, and so was of course exposed to the popular media accounts that favored the conspiracy theory. I think I actually owned one of the various conspiracy books, and then ran across the Warren Report. Of course I opened it up for a good laugh, because I knew, based on what I read in the books that gave the "true" account, that the Warren Report was a pack of lies!

One of the first thing I noticed was that this particular conspiracy book had talked about how the Warren Report claimed that there were three shots, and that the first shot had struck President Kennedy, and from there it came up wtih a timeline of 4.3 seconds. Of course, this was, according to the book, an impossible feat of marksmanship. However, when I opened the Warren Report, lo and behold they had said no such thing. It made me quite suspcious, I must admit. I figured if they couldn't even accurately quote the Warren Report, maybe there was something else wrong in their analysis.

[Humanzee]

a question I have always had but never googled is has the bullet (I assume it was a bullet) that damaged the windshield been identified? That is which shot it was.

[CurtC]

And it was just a coincidence that they found another gun in the school book depository, and the owner ran off and killed a cop?

IIRC, the Mortal Error author thinks Oswald fired some shots, he just thinks the head shot was fired by a Hickey in the car behind. But really - you got a guy aiming a rifle at the President's head and shooting, but he thinks a trained Secret Service guy just happened to accidentally fire his gun and just happened to hit the same head that the sniper is aiming at?!? It's just too far out there, and would require extraordinary evidence to believe it. But the evidence presented is pretty weak.



a question I have always had but never googled is has the bullet (I assume it was a bullet) that damaged the windshield been identified? That is which shot it was.
It had to be the third shot - the bullet that hit Kennedy's skull fragmented into lots of pieces. The piece that hit the inside surface of the windshield was lead and probably didn't have any of the metal jacket in that fragment.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Where are the nuts? Usually, a thread like this brings out the JFK conspiracy wackos. I don't see any so far.

[kookbreaker]

We lost Rouser some time ago. He was the big one for no evidence beyond an attitude of "i know more than youse guyz".

[HeyLeroy]

And it was just a coincidence that they found another gun in the school book depository, and the owner ran off and killed a cop?

No.

ETA: Kind of. Oswald was the only person there with malice aforethought; it was a coincidence (according to Donahue) that the fatal shot came from a Secret Service rifle accidentally.

IIRC, the Mortal Error author thinks Oswald fired some shots, he just thinks the head shot was fired by a Hickey in the car behind.

Correct.

He speculates that Oswald fired two shots. According to the Warren Commission report Marina Oswald stated that her husband admitted to her that several months previously, Oswald had fired a round from that rifle through the window of a major, his name escapes me (I wish I had the book here!). The Dallas police never recovered a shell casing from that scene, leading Donahue to surmise that Oswald fled before ejecting that empty casing, but used it to dry-fire the rifle while practising cycling the action. He'd ejected it at the book depository.

Due to the scope being mis-aligned the first round Oswald fired went wide (according to Donahue); it spattered off the sidewalk, spraying the windshield frame and limo interior with fragments and actually striking the back of Kennedy's head with one (there was a piece of lead consistent with a Carcano round found beneath Kennedy's scalp but outside of his skull. This would be consistent with Jackie Kennedy's testimony of hearing JFK stating, "I'm hit!"; the damage to his throat from Oswald's second shot would have prevented him from saying anything).

Several people, according to the WC report, reported seeing something hit the pavement behind the limo, kicking up dust. Many thought it was a firecracker.

But really - you got a guy aiming a rifle at the President's head and shooting, but he thinks a trained Secret Service guy just happened to accidentally fire his gun and just happened to hit the same head that the sniper is aiming at?!? It's just too far out there, and would require extraordinary evidence to believe it. But the evidence presented is pretty weak.

I hope this doesn't come across as confrontational but you do seem familiar with the book; have you read it?

ETA2: I've been reviewing that three-year-old thread and you'd participated in that one as well. If you're interested I can dig up my old copy of the book and mail it to you if you'd be willing to send it back when you're done.

ETA3: Here's a brief synopsis of the book: http://www.parmaq.com/truecrime/MortalError.htm

[grandthefttoaster]

IIRC, the Mortal Error author thinks Oswald fired some shots, he just thinks the head shot was fired by a Hickey in the car behind. But really - you got a guy aiming a rifle at the President's head and shooting, but he thinks a trained Secret Service guy just happened to accidentally fire his gun and just happened to hit the same head that the sniper is aiming at?!? It's just too far out there, and would require extraordinary evidence to believe it. But the evidence presented is pretty weak.

This guy sounds like he has zero common sense. If Oswald and a Secret Service guy both shot JFK at the same time, that would probably mean they were part of a conspiracy together, not some accident.

[HeyLeroy]

Not really. He surmises that Agent Hickey heard gunfire, picked up the AR-15 from inside the chase car and stood up just as the driver accellerated abruptly, causing him to accidentally squeeze the trigger.

ETA: From the linked synopsis (http://www.parmaq.com/truecrime/MortalError.htm):

One day in 1976 a friend gave him a copy of a book called The Death of A President by William Manchester, the semi-official account of the assassination. There, he found what he had been looking for for years. It described how agent George Hickey who had been sitting the left rear seat of the secret service car behind the presidential limousine, had with him an AR-15 rifle which he was waving about at the time of the shooting. Donahue scoured the testimony again and found a reference to Hickey standing up in his seat and then falling backwards. One witness had actually thought that Hickey had fired at someone. Agent Bennett seated beside Hickey said that when he heard the fatal shot he reached for the rifle between them but Hickey had already picked it up. Hickey's own statement had indicated he had picked up his gun after the last shot but this was contradicted by others who saw him with it at the time of the shot. And it was also started that the gun was kept in the bottom of the car "ready to go", i.e. cocked and loaded.

There was never much doubt in Donahue's mind that if Hickey had fired the head shot it was accidental. This fact must surely have been known to the secret service men there at the time. When Clint Hill (the man seen climbing onto the back of the President's limousine just after the shooting) telephoned the White House he said "There has been an accident", and the secret service removed the body from Parkland hospital firmly and illegally, despite the Dallas medical examiner's insistence than an autopsy must by law be performed before the body could be shipped out of the state. After a major confrontation he was shoved aside and the casket removed. Of course there would have to be a cover up. Such an accident would tarnish the Secret Service, tarnish the memory of JFK, which was why the Warren Commission had insisted the bullet fragments found in the car came from the head shot - they were ballistically matched to Oswald's rifle.

[grandthefttoaster]

Kennedy's head had magnets in it that attract bullets?

[HeyLeroy]

As far as I know, neither lead nor copper is attracted to magnets.

[defaultdotxbe]

As far as I know, neither lead nor copper is attracted to magnets.
you dont know what kind of classified magnets the government has!

[HeyLeroy]

:p

[R.Mackey]

Understand that I haven't read the book, but from what I see so far I'm not real impressed with this theory. It appears to be postulated on the basis of (a) unrealistically high rates of fire, and (b) circumstantial evidence of secondary impacts.

Article (a) is provably wrong, and indeed, as shown in this thread the actual rate of fire is precisely what one expects from Oswald. For (b), I'm having a hard time accepting that the FBI never found pieces of a 5.56 round mixed up in the event. I'm also having a hard time imagining that, when things started to go bad, the Secret Service detail's reaction would be to grab their rifles, fingers on triggers, and sweep the President.

Simply not credible without definitive evidence. I don't blame Mr. Hickey for being pissed.

[CurtC]

According to the Warren Commission report Marina Oswald stated that her husband admitted to her that several months previously, Oswald had fired a round from that rifle through the window of a major, his name escapes me (I wish I had the book here!). The Dallas police never recovered a shell casing from that scene, leading Donahue to surmise that Oswald fled before ejecting that empty casing, but used it to dry-fire the rifle while practising cycling the action. He'd ejected it at the book depository.

A few months (six or so IIRC) before the Kennedy assassination, someone fired a shot at General Walker in Dallas through his window. Walker was a very conservative gadfly in the Dallas area. The bullet clipped the frame of the window pane and deflected it enough to miss Walker's head. The police had no clues of who did it.

Until the Kennedy assassination - they looked into it and found that the shot at Walker was fired from Oswald's rifle as well.

[Foolmewunz]

you dont know what kind of classified magnets the government has!

Puh-lease! They were testing super-nano-thermo-magnets back then in a hush hush lab at Livermore. A Professor Jones of Salt Lake City is working up a paper right now that will be published in some piece of crap vanity press a peer reviewed journal, and it'll blow the whole thing wide open.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

A few months (six or so IIRC) before the Kennedy assassination, someone fired a shot at General Walker in Dallas through his window. Walker was a very conservative gadfly in the Dallas area. The bullet clipped the frame of the window pane and deflected it enough to miss Walker's head. The police had no clues of who did it.

Until the Kennedy assassination - they looked into it and found that the shot at Walker was fired from Oswald's rifle as well.

That's what "they" want you to believe.

[CurtC]

That's what "they" want you to believe.

Speaking of which - are there any conspiracy theory types who dispute that Oswald tried to kill Walker earlier that year? I've been round and round on this JFK carousel many times and I don't think I've ever seen anyone question that he did.

[kookbreaker]

Speaking of which - are there any conspiracy theory types who dispute that Oswald tried to kill Walker earlier that year? I've been round and round on this JFK carousel many times and I don't think I've ever seen anyone question that he did.

The ones who do are the type that reject evidence they don't like. The Walker connection was revealed by Maria Oswald in her testimony to the Warren Commission and she never backed down from anything she said, even as the conspirators whispered in her ear for decades. You basically have the Buffs who don't want to hear a word she said, such as when she says she took the pictures in the back yard.

[HeyLeroy]

To the first person who's interested, I'll mail my copy of the book on the condition it gets mailed back.

[CORed]

I think at some point Oswald would have caved and claimed responsibility. It was his nature to make himself seem important, and ultimately, the act of killing the President would have been too big a thing for him to continue denying.

Just my amateur psychoanalysis.

A

I think you mean that the government would have tortured Oswald into confessing [/CT].

[dallasroofer]

Can ya'll tell me about the Springfield M19103A4?

[Ranb]

Did you mean the 1903? Excellent rifle. A fine near copy of the mauser. I wish I had one to add to my collection. From what I have read, the 1903a4 was a poor sniper rifle for several reasons. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1903_Springfield

Ranb

[dallasroofer]

Hey Grandtoaster - Ranb's been a big help, but I wanted your opinion about the Springfield rifle too. Please take a look at this youtube evidence. Thanks!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsa75harFsk

[R.Mackey]

A genuine M1903A4 is worth a fortune today...

I'd rather have an '03A3, or what I have now, an M1917. Iron sights don't fog up or crack.

No reason the Springfield should be considered in this discussion, particularly the A4. The bullets recovered aren't a match. And there were literally hundreds of thousands of surplus non-A4 M1903's, including those hack-jobbed into sporting pieces with scopes, whereas the A4 would be a rare bird indeed. Something tells me our newcomer is a wee bit naive.

[grandthefttoaster]

Hey Grandtoaster - Ranb's been a big help, but I wanted your opinion about the Springfield rifle too. Please take a look at this youtube evidence. Thanks!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsa75harFsk

Why are you spamming your corny youtube videos on all of the JFK threads?

[Toke]

youtube evidence

I think you have a problem right here.

[Belgian thought]

A few months (six or so IIRC) before the Kennedy assassination, someone fired a shot at General Walker in Dallas through his window. Walker was a very conservative gadfly in the Dallas area. The bullet clipped the frame of the window pane and deflected it enough to miss Walker's head. The police had no clues of who did it.

Until the Kennedy assassination - they looked into it and found that the shot at Walker was fired from Oswald's rifle as well.

Thanks for that info, I did not know this. As you state in a later post re JFK CTs, I too have never seen this fact mentioned.