Mad cow in Washington

[KelvinG]

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/12/23/usmadcow031223

WASHINGTON - The U.S. has discovered its first presumptive case of bovine spongiform encephalopathy (BSE), in a cow in Washington state.

U.S. Secretary of Agriculture Ann Veneman confirmed the discovery Tuesday afternoon in Washington. "A single Holstein cow from Washington state is presumptive positive for BSE, or what is known as mad cow disease," she said.




I trust that a ban on exporting American beef to other countries in the world will be quickly put in place and left there for many, many months, thus seriously damaging the cattle industry.

After all, precautions shouldn't be any different than they were on Canadian beef when a single cow tested positive in Alberta about a year ago.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by KelvinG
http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/12/23/usmadcow031223





I trust that a ban on exporting American beef to other countries in the world will be quickly put in place and left there for many, many months, thus seriously damaging the cattle industry.

After all, precautions shouldn't be any different than they were on Canadian beef when a single cow tested positive in Alberta about a year ago.

You sound a bit bitter there, but if such a thing is necessary to make sure no one is hurt I am for it. However, one can make a contract with a specific company in a specific state, which is far and away from Washington instead of making a sweeping ban on the entire country's export. Am I wrong?

[Troll]

Originally posted by KelvinG
http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/12/23/usmadcow031223





I trust that a ban on exporting American beef to other countries in the world will be quickly put in place and left there for many, many months, thus seriously damaging the cattle industry.

After all, precautions shouldn't be any different than they were on Canadian beef when a single cow tested positive in Alberta about a year ago.

The US put a ban on exporting beef from Canada? You guys really do need a stronger sense of sovereignty.

[reprise]

The long incubation period for BSE in cattle (3-8 years) means that nations which import beef and cattle products from the US will probably apply the same kind of blanket ban to which European beef and cattle products were subjected. The bans which Australia and other nations applied included many non-food products including cosmetics and pharmaceutical goods.

The US only enacted its Ruminant/Feed legislation in 1997, meaning that even those cattle producers who have stringently followed those regulations can not assure purchasers that their cattle is BSE free.

[Reginald]

I hope that it proves a false alarm. Material is being sent to the UK for investigation. I can only assume that is because we have had much unfortunate experience with this problem.

My reasons for this hope are many fold, but primarily because of the link between BSE and CJD. The thing being that many people may have eaten infected product in the time it has taken for this case to appear. :(

[corplinx]

Are they sure it isnt Rosie O'Donnell ?

[Troll]

Originally posted by corplinx
Are they sure it isnt Rosie O'Donnell ?

Oh, now you're just asking to get AUP to come in here and call you sexist, a homophobe, and biggoted against annoying ugly women.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Troll


Oh, now you're just asking to get AUP to come in here and call you sexist, a homophobe, and biggoted against annoying ugly women.

***censored for bad taste***

[reprise]

I hope that it's a false alarm. If it isn't, it will have a huge impact on the US export market, not to mention the US health system.

Y'all might be our competitors in the beef export market, but nobody wants to see the same thing happen to the US cattle and allied industries as happened in Europe.

Given the reaction that Oprah's comment about not eating burgers provoked a few years ago, can you imagine what the reaction to even an unconfirmed report of BSE on US will be?

[Chad Noles]

Anyone "shorting" McDonald's yet?:confused:

[corplinx]

Originally posted by reprise
Given the reaction that Oprah's comment about not eating burgers provoked a few years ago, can you imagine what the reaction to even an unconfirmed report of BSE on US will be?

A good balance? The price of beef has shot up so much that steak restaurants are cutting their margins ultra-thin. A good scare means I won't have to wait 45 minutes for a table at Outback and the price will be much better hopefully.

[reprise]

Originally posted by corplinx


A good balance? The price of beef has shot up so much that steak restaurants are cutting their margins ultra-thin. A good scare means I won't have to wait 45 minutes for a table at Outback and the price will be much better hopefully.

The price of beef sky-rocketed in Europe when the BSE restrictions were imposed because so much beef had to be imported. If the price of beef in the US is already high, it's about to shoot even higher...

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by KelvinG
http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/12/23/usmadcow031223





I trust that a ban on exporting American beef to other countries in the world will be quickly put in place and left there for many, many months, thus seriously damaging the cattle industry.

After all, precautions shouldn't be any different than they were on Canadian beef when a single cow tested positive in Alberta about a year ago.

Good news for you!
http://my.aol.com/news/news_story.psp?type=1&cat=0100&id=200312232106000132886

Now do you feel better knowing American beef is banned? Does that make you happy? Just asking.

[reprise]

Originally posted by Grammatron


Good news for you!
http://my.aol.com/news/news_story.psp?type=1&cat=0100&id=200312232106000132886

Now do you feel better knowing American beef is banned? Does that make you happy? Just asking.

While the ban might be a predictable knee-jerk reaction, it's a knee-jerk reaction, nonetheless.

The reality is that the beef industry will take a hit even if this proves to be a false alarm. Similarly, a lot of products which people don't even realise contain ingredients derived from cattle will be affected be affected by trade bans (even sunscreens where affected when Australia banned European cattle products).

This ban isn't good news for anyone. It will drive beef prices sky-high in both the US domestic market and in countries which export beef for overseas consumption - it looks like we'll be eating a lot of pork and chicken next year.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by reprise


While the ban might be a predictable knee-jerk reaction, it's a knee-jerk reaction, nonetheless.

The reality is that the beef industry will take a hit even if this proves to be a false alarm. Similarly, a lot of products which people don't even realise contain ingredients derived from cattle will be affected be affected by trade bans (even sunscreens where affected when Australia banned European cattle products).

This ban isn't good news for anyone. It will drive beef prices sky-high in both the US domestic market and in countries which export beef for overseas consumption - it looks like we'll be eating a lot of pork and chicken next year.

I completely agree with you. I was simply commenting on tone of KelvinG's post where he is bitter that Canada's markets were hurt by the ban so he wants America to feel the pain as well or something.

Besides, chicken is better for you anyway :)

[KelvinG]

Originally posted by Grammatron


Good news for you!
http://my.aol.com/news/news_story.psp?type=1&cat=0100&id=200312232106000132886

Now do you feel better knowing American beef is banned? Does that make you happy? Just asking.

No, it does not make me happy.
But, I suppose it's necessary. Japan really has no choice if they want to remain consistent. They did the same thing when a single cow in Alberta tested positive for BSE.

Now, I'm sure a temporary ban makes sense. I had no problem with a temporary ban up here when it first happened. If tests are done and show that no other cows were affected and the food chain is not in danger, then does a ban need to stay in place?
Up here beef bans were in place months after Canadian beef was deemed safe and there were no reasons to suspect other cows were diseased.

I realize my original post may have sounded a little vindicitive, like I want the US cattle industry to now suffer. That is not so. In fact, the US and Canadian cattle industry are very much on the same page in all of this. My sarcastic tone was more because of the overreaction and the misconceptions regarding BSE and the safety of beef.

The cattle industry up here was turning blue in the face months after the mad cow scare in Alberta insisting that their beef was safe, yet bans remained. It has had a devastating effect on the industry. Will there be a repeat in the US?

[reprise]

The problem with BSE is that the incubation period is so long that it can take a long time to know how widespread infection is - a period of several months without any new cases of BSE in no way guarantees that it is under control and that no other cows are affected.

While the particular cow in which BSE is suspected had been sent for processing, it wasn't destined for human consumption but that doesn't mean that cows which ARE destined for human consumption haven't been exposed to the same source of infection.

Whether the bans are justified or not will depend on whether the particular cow was illegally imported into Washington (BSE isn't contagious) or whether it contracted BSE through illegal feeding practises (in which case more than this one cow is likely to be affected).

The stark reality is that the overseas market may choose to maintain a ban on US beef for a considerable period of time rather than risk the same errors which led to European beef being declared "safe" when it was not. No amount of the FDA declaring the meat safe obliges overseas markets to purchase it, and even some major domestic purchasers may choose to source their beef elsewhere in the immediate future.

[Grammatron]

I read some thing on other boards that made me a bit sad. For example, this might have effect on world blood supply. Red cross won't take blood from people who lived in England at certain period of time, how will it effect blood gathering from those in the Canada and US and more importantly how will it affect the world blood supply?

[reprise]

Originally posted by Grammatron
I read some thing on other boards that made me a bit sad. For example, this might have effect on world blood supply. Red cross won't take blood from people who lived in England at certain period of time, how will it effect blood gathering from those in the Canada and US and more importantly how will it affect the world blood supply?

It will really depend on the source of this infection and whether there is any possibility that other cattle which might have been infected with BSE could have become part of the human or animal food chain. At the moment we have no idea of the age of the cow or the probable source of infection.

In Australia, at least, I don't think that a significant enough amount of donors will be at risk for it to have a major impact on the blood supply, if the same "6 months residence" criteria is applied to people who've been in the US as is applied to those who lived in the UK.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Mad cow in Washington? What did Hillary do now?

[peptoabysmal]

Originally posted by KelvinG


No, it does not make me happy.
But, I suppose it's necessary. Japan really has no choice if they want to remain consistent. They did the same thing when a single cow in Alberta tested positive for BSE.

Now, I'm sure a temporary ban makes sense. I had no problem with a temporary ban up here when it first happened. If tests are done and show that no other cows were affected and the food chain is not in danger, then does a ban need to stay in place?
Up here beef bans were in place months after Canadian beef was deemed safe and there were no reasons to suspect other cows were diseased.

I realize my original post may have sounded a little vindicitive, like I want the US cattle industry to now suffer. That is not so. In fact, the US and Canadian cattle industry are very much on the same page in all of this. My sarcastic tone was more because of the overreaction and the misconceptions regarding BSE and the safety of beef.

The cattle industry up here was turning blue in the face months after the mad cow scare in Alberta insisting that their beef was safe, yet bans remained. It has had a devastating effect on the industry. Will there be a repeat in the US?

It's quite possible that there will be over-reaction to this in the US beef industry, or rather, the agency that controls it, the FDA. I think that US beef should be quarantined until it can be proven safe.

My father is a retired cattle rancher from the US. I can relate to how hard it would be on families who depend on cattle sales to live, but BSE is bad, bad stuff. You can't even kill it by burning the cow, since it's not really a living organism; but a twisted protein. The whole thing is a soylent-green-gone-bad sci-fi / ecological disaster / horror story to begin with.

[Tesserat]

I just heard on CBC Radio that the Alberta Beef Farmers are offering to help the American beef industry any way they can. The reason they're giving is that they understand what it can do to the industry, and they're trying to keep the market open.

That kinda thing makes me proud. The revenge philosphy isn't always necessary.

The CBC report also said that the Canadian government isn't joining in the ban on American Beef for at least a few days, until they hear a complete report.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Tesserat
I just heard on CBC Radio that the Alberta Beef Farmers are offering to help the American beef industry any way they can. The reason they're giving is that they understand what it can do to the industry, and they're trying to keep the market open.

That kinda thing makes me proud. The revenge philosphy isn't always necessary.

The CBC report also said that the Canadian government isn't joining in the ban on American Beef for at least a few days, until they hear a complete report.

I was hoping Canadian farmers would punish us by selling us cheap beef. My BBQ and I are standing by for the punishment.

[corplinx]

Are they sure its not just Penny Marshall?

[Tesserat]

Originally posted by Grammatron


I was hoping Canadian farmers would punish us by selling us cheap beef. My BBQ and I are standing by for the punishment.

No problem, consider yourself spanked to the tune of a nice rump steak. Moose is better, though.

[Dorian Gray]

I trust that a ban on exporting American beef to other countries in the world will be quickly put in place and left there for many, many months, thus seriously damaging the cattle industry.
You mean "seriously damaged the cattle industry again", don't you? Or have you already forgotted the devastating attack levelled at the beef industry by Oprah Winfrey a few years back?

[Troll]

Originally posted by The Central Scrutinizer
Mad cow in Washington? What did Hillary do now?

Dude, you suck. I was trying to find a pic of her to post here when I read your reply.:p

[reprise]

Originally posted by Dorian Gray
You mean "seriously damaged the cattle industry again", don't you? Or have you already forgotted the devastating attack levelled at the beef industry by Oprah Winfrey a few years back?

"Devastating attack"? Give me a break.

[Troll]

I've been eating more elk and venison lately anyhow. They're "cuter" animals and it pisses off vegans even more when they find out, so I get to accomplish more than just getting tasty nutrition.

[Troll]

Originally posted by reprise


"Devastating attack"? Give me a break.

Well she did seem to have an influence on the market. Plenty of unemployed women sitting in front of the tv switched to snacking on other meats, as did the less manly of men.

[reprise]

Originally posted by Troll
I've been eating more elk and venison lately anyhow. They're "cuter" animals and it pisses off vegans even more when they find out, so I get to accomplish more than just getting tasty nutrition.

Deer and elk get a TSE called Chronic Wasting Disease. :)

[Troll]

Originally posted by reprise


Deer and elk get a TSE called Chronic Wasting Disease. :)

And women can get all sorts of diseases. Unless you can test everything for yourself, or trust the supplier, you take your chances on what ya eat;)

[reprise]

Originally posted by Troll


Well she did seem to have an influence on the market. Plenty of unemployed women sitting in front of the tv switched to snacking on other meats, as did the less manly of men.

Oh, she definitely affected the market. Just as an endorsement by Oprah can send a lousy book to the top of the best seller list, a negative remark by her can influence those who can't think for themselves to boycott a product. Nonetheless, the comment she actually made about not eating any more burgers certainly wasn't defamatory (much less an attack) and the lawsuit which was initiated against her was just plain stupid.

[Troll]

Originally posted by reprise


Oh, she definitely affected the market. Just as an endorsement by Oprah can send a lousy book to the top of the best seller list, a negative remark by her can influence those who can't think for themselves to boycott a product. Nonetheless, the comment she actually made about not eating any more burgers certainly wasn't defamatory (much less an attack) and the lawsuit which was initiated against her was just plain stupid.

true the lawsuit was pointless. I mean there's that whole first amendment thing that lets people speak and dumb people follow. But I'm sure Dorian Gray was referring to her effect on things and not the entire situation including the lawsuit

[reprise]

Originally posted by Troll


true the lawsuit was pointless. I mean there's that whole first amendment thing that lets people speak and dumb people follow. But I'm sure Dorian Gray was referring to her effect on things and not the entire situation including the lawsuit

I've never forgiven the woman for promoting Ugg™ boots on her show and driving up the domestic price by making them trendy.

[reprise]

Originally posted by Troll
I've been eating more elk and venison lately anyhow. They're "cuter" animals and it pisses off vegans even more when they find out, so I get to accomplish more than just getting tasty nutrition.

just make sure you don't eat too much mink (http://www.neurocenter-bern.ch/tse_e.shtml). ;)

[reprise]

McDonalds (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,106553,00.html) is in damage control mode and grain futures are up. It's a good thing the stock exchange is closed for the next couple of days...

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by Troll


Dude, you suck. I was trying to find a pic of her to post here when I read your reply.:p

I could delete my post and let you have all the glory!

[shuize]

I was thinking about the point above that this will lead to higher beef prices in both the U.S. and overseas.

I'm not sure I agree. Wouldn't it mean lower beef prices in the U.S. as consumer demand goes down without reducing the available supply at home? (I understand if they start slaughtering cattle by the millions, that would changes things as the supply would go down and cause the price to go up.)

Now if the BSE scare causes everyone else to stop importing U.S. beef, I would agree that would drive prices up overseas due to lower supply and unchanged demand.

Tell me how I'm wrong.

[Troll]

Originally posted by shuize
I was thinking about the point above that this will lead to higher beef prices in both the U.S. and overseas.

I'm not sure I agree. Wouldn't it mean lower beef prices in the U.S. as consumer demand goes down without reducing the available supply at home? (I understand if they start slaughtering cattle by the millions, that would changes things as the supply would go down and cause the price to go up.)

Now if the BSE scare causes everyone else to stop importing U.S. beef, I would agree that would drive prices up overseas due to lower supply and unchanged demand.

Tell me how I'm wrong.

Well for starters you made sense. So according to many, though oddly enough not too many in this thread, that would automatically make you wrong.

so far, with the exception of KelvinG, everyone has been pretty much on the mark and understanding. He wishes for a ban in order of fairness and the rest expect one because it's how things work.

I have to say it's sad for all involved previously, like the Brits when they had their bout with this, and now, but it's understandable that people would put things on hold when questions arrive. For the most part no company would decide to buy from a manufacturer if there are severe questions about the product, same applies to food products.

Now we can have some fun with this and say Al-Queda tainted one cow to create the scare, or the Democrats did it because they were losing on points to focus on against the incumbent. To me both are terrorist groups so it's a tough call. :D

[reprise]

Originally posted by shuize
I was thinking about the point above that this will lead to higher beef prices in both the U.S. and overseas.

I'm not sure I agree. Wouldn't it mean lower beef prices in the U.S. as consumer demand goes down without reducing the available supply at home? (I understand if they start slaughtering cattle by the millions, that would changes things as the supply would go down and cause the price to go up.)

Now if the BSE scare causes everyone else to stop importing U.S. beef, I would agree that would drive prices up overseas due to lower supply and unchanged demand.

Tell me how I'm wrong.

The price of domestic beef in the US will drop initially. Some large beef buyers may elect to source their beef from outside of the US (McDonalds in Japan sources all of its beef from Australia), which will further drive down the domestic price of cattle. The lower prices will force a significant number of producers (and other industries whose fates are tied to the US domestic cattle market) out of business, meaning that there is less competitive pressure on prices when the market recovers. At this point, it's impossible to predict how many "average Americans" will disbelieve government reassurances about the safety of the meat supply and stop eating beef and what impact that will have on the cattle industry.

I've been watching the stock market since this news broke and even companies which import no US beef whatsoever are taking a hit in countries like Japan.

[shuize]

Originally posted by Chad Noles
Anyone "shorting" McDonald's yet?:confused:

Too late. McDonald's has already taken a hit in after hours and you'll be lucky to beat the "stampede" to sell before everyone tries to get out of it before the market closes for the holiday.

(Disclaimer: I may just have written the statement above to try and cause further panic in an attempt to buy MCD even lower. Trade at your own risk.)

edited to emphasize my incredibily clever use of "stampede."

[Troll]

Originally posted by reprise


just make sure you don't eat too much mink (http://www.neurocenter-bern.ch/tse_e.shtml). ;)

Damn, that stuff hits domestic cats as well? Like I didn't have enough to worry about. I need to get mine checked and stop eating Korean.;)

You do realize that the link you offered, which I thank you for, shows that we do as I said, which was basically take a chance on anything you eat, unless you're a vegan and are gonna end up with many other various diseases and illnesses to concern yourself with, don't you? I say that because of the extremely wide variety of edible land meat. Fish and mercury are another story but this thread is about land meat. Let's hope there's not a beer and vegemite scare, because even though I got spat on in Freemantle, I still like you Australians.:D

[Troll]

Originally posted by shuize


Too late. McDonald's has already taken a hit in after hours and you'll be lucky to beat the stampede to sell before everyone tries to get out of it before the market closes for the holiday.

(Disclaimer: I may just have written the statement above to try and cause further panic in an attempt to buy MCD even lower. Trade at your own risk.)

Nah, if your talking about McDonalds meat, I'll focus more on the horse track than the market. The horse that is most scared of becoming a double quarter pounder will obviously run the fastest.

[reprise]

I wonder how long it will take the pork and poultry industries to exploit the fact that their particular animals aren't at risk of TSEs...

[Troll]

Originally posted by reprise
I wonder how long it will take the pork and poultry industries to exploit the fact that their particular animals aren't at risk of TSEs...

In the US? Tomorrow's paper and a week later for the tv ads

[reprise]

Originally posted by Troll


Damn, that stuff hits domestic cats as well? Like I didn't have enough to worry about. I need to get mine checked and stop eating Korean.;)

You do realize that the link you offered, which I thank you for, shows that we do as I said, which was basically take a chance on anything you eat, unless you're a vegan and are gonna end up with many other various diseases and illnesses to concern yourself with, don't you? I say that because of the extremely wide variety of edible land meat. Fish and mercury are another story but this thread is about land meat. Let's hope there's not a beer and vegemite scare, because even though I got spat on in Freemantle, I still like you Australians.:D

I'm willing to bet that more people die annually from food poisoning contracted from improperly cooked/stored beef dishes than will ever die from vCJD, but every now and then something comes along which reminds people that life is never totally safe and the public responds quite irrationally in demanding that it be made so. BSE has attracted a "fear quotient" which is totally out of proportion to the risk it poses to humans, but we've already seen just how dramatically that fear can affect industries and force them to respond to fears which are based more on emotion than logic.

[richardm]

From the BBC's account (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3345455.stm) :

Agriculture Secretary Ann Veneman said a Holstein cow had tested positive - but she insisted US beef was safe.

Uh-huh. Reminds me of the British minister, John Gummer, trying to force his daughter to eat a beefburger on TV to demonstrate the safety of beef.

[a_unique_person]

I can guarantee you there will be farmers all around Australia cracking open in tinny in celebration tonight.

[Troll]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
I can guarantee you there will be farmers all around Australia cracking open in tinny in celebration tonight.

so they celebrate another's problems? Damn. we just didn't take in the meat. Apparently you guys wanna insult as well

[richardm]

I am quite intrigued to know how BSE has ended up in the USA. Was the offending cow imported, or have US farmers been following the same meat/bone meal path as everyone else? If the latter, then serves 'em right, really.

Edited to add: Or is it possible for the same syndrome to develop independently on different continents?

[Rolfe]

Nobody really knows how it developed. It's a serious mystery. It's not even absolutely certain that BSE meat causes vCJD, though the circumstantial evidence is suggestive.

What really astonishes me is the report that the brain and spinal cord of this cow went for rendering into animal feed. I can't understand why any country on earth should be allowing the "specified offals" into animal feed nowadays, no matter how BSE-free they think they are.

Rolfe.

[tedly]

Originally posted by shuize

Tell me how I'm wrong.

Well, for starters, Econ 101 doesn't apply to a subsidised market, nor to a market where few buyers are matched with a huge number of sellers, all of whom are price takers.

In effect, supply and demand doesn't work in any NA food market. Here in Canada, with cattle selling at $0.8 I was buying blade steak at $1.68. When the mad cow thingee hit, I was getting it for $2.7. cattle were selling as low as $.24, and we heard of one farmer who after paying the auctioneer couldn't buy a hamburger for the price he got for his cow.

The packing plants are under no obligation to increase the supply of marketed beef, so they don't.

And if you talk to a beef producer don't get her started on the support programs from the government that became a subsidy to the packing plants.

The 'free market' you learn about in Econ is a trading space with a 'multitude' of buyers and sellers, all with equal information. It doesn't appy to millions of farmers selling to seven packing companies, or a handful of grain traders. The price is set by the first farmer who has to meet a fertilizer bill. (Sold to him by- ta da- the multinational that owns the packing and grain companies.) this is why in times of surplus or shortage grain prices have trended down. You can buy a bushel of grain now for a lower cash price than you could fifty years ago.

[Reginald]

Originally posted by richardm
From the BBC's account (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3345455.stm) :



Uh-huh. Reminds me of the British minister, John Gummer, trying to force his daughter to eat a beefburger on TV to demonstrate the safety of beef.

I share your view there R.

I also share Rolfe's amazement that the brain and SC were going to be put back into feed.

[Chad Noles]

Looks like the cattle futures are "Limit Down" til after the New Year.Lots of traders are taking big hits due to the 52 week highs in beef.Cattle may not be the only ones getting slaughtered due to BSE.Ouch!

[Solitaire]

Originally posted by Grammatron
Besides, chicken is better for you anyway :)
But what if there are mad chickens? :eek:

P.S. Dude I got to totaly check out this vegitarian thing...

[MartinGibbs]

Originally posted by Synchronicity

But what if there are mad chickens? :eek:

P.S. Dude I got to totaly check out this vegitarian thing...

There are mad carrots out there.... trust me.

I think this whole this was inevitable--what, with the speed at which we crank out beef, what we feed them (someone has already mentioned 'Fast Food Nation'). You want cheap beef? You gotta push more out... higher productivity equals less time to inspect, shortcuts taken, etc.

[KelvinG]

Originally posted by Troll


Well for starters you made sense. So according to many, though oddly enough not too many in this thread, that would automatically make you wrong.

so far, with the exception of KelvinG, everyone has been pretty much on the mark and understanding. He wishes for a ban in order of fairness and the rest expect one because it's how things work.

I have to say it's sad for all involved previously, like the Brits when they had their bout with this, and now, but it's understandable that people would put things on hold when questions arrive. For the most part no company would decide to buy from a manufacturer if there are severe questions about the product, same applies to food products.

Now we can have some fun with this and say Al-Queda tainted one cow to create the scare, or the Democrats did it because they were losing on points to focus on against the incumbent. To me both are terrorist groups so it's a tough call. :D

I believe I made it clear in my second post in this thread that my original post was not meant to be a "let's even things up post" by banning US beef. It was more a comment on the unfair overreaction that occurred when Canadian beef was banned for a longer period of time than was necessary. In reality, I hope a similar overreaction does not occur to cripple the US beef industry that same way our industry was hurt up here.

Yes, of course initial quarantine action must be taken. I'm not trying to pretend a cow with BSE means nothing. But, if it does end up being that only one cow is affected and there is no reason to believe the food chain is in danger, then should a ban stay in place for months, and months. I think not.

Food safety is important, but so is quashing paranoia and overblown fear.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Synchronicity

But what if there are mad chickens? :eek:

P.S. Dude I got to totaly check out this vegitarian thing...

Funny you should mention the vegetarian thing because you could get mad cow from vegetables if a fertilizer that was used contains any of bones - I think it's true, just read it somewhere, someone please verify :) - which mean unless you grow your own, you'll be screwed just like the rest of us.

[WildCat]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
I can guarantee you there will be farmers all around Australia cracking open in tinny in celebration tonight.
They shouldn't get too excited. Most Americans wouldn't eat horse meat if told to at gunpoint.

Edited to clarify:
-Approximately 463,000 tonnes of horse meat (more than one million horses) were used worldwide for human consumption in 1988. Major consumers are France, Japan, Belgium, Luxembourg, the Netherlands and Italy.

-Australia represents 6% of the international trade. Feral horses are estimated to account for 30% of the trade or between $4 and 6 million.

-Most horse meat exports from Australia, 55-75% annually, go to Japan where the meat is generally used as manufacturing meat (smoked meats, sausages and meat balls) as apposed to prime cuts.

-There are two main export abatoirs in Australia, at Peterborough in South Australia and Caboolture in Queensland. A third abattoir at Tennant Creek (Northern Territory) processes horses infrequently.

-Between 40,000 and 60,000 horses (domestic and feral) were killed annually at export abattoirs between 1987 and 1990

Be careful what you order in that French restaurant! What's up with that anyway?!

[WildCat]

Personally, I'm looking forward to lower prices on steak. Many people say my brain is wasting away already anyway. :p

And oh, the irony. this story (http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/health/chi-0312230196dec23,1,1552037.story) appeared the same day the mad cow disease was reported:
The buzz, echoing across cattle country from Montana to Texas, comes from what the U.S. Department of Agriculture calls the highest beef prices on record. Ranchers who have endured decades of declining consumer demand for beef--as well as five punishing years of drought --now finding out that they have just what the doctor ordered. That is, the late Robert Atkins, along with his many imitators in the low-carbohydrate, high-protein diet craze.

"That Atkins diet has really helped demand for beef," said Bill Garrison, 62, who, along with his two sons, raises cattle on 18,000 acres north of Dillon, about 100 miles southwest of the capital, Helena.

"Prices are higher now than I thought I would ever see," added the past president of the Montana Stockgrowers Association.


Free registration required to access that link.

[MartinGibbs]

The irony is delicious--to be awfully punny.

Never thought of the Atkin's angle, not being a huge fan of it.

[phildonnia]

Originally posted by reprise
I'm willing to bet that more people die annually from food poisoning contracted from improperly cooked/stored beef dishes than will ever die from vCJD, ...

And that even more will die from heart disease and blood clots caused by too much Sat Fat and Cholesterol.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by Chad Noles
Anyone "shorting" McDonald's yet?:confused:

No. Why would we?

And if you are recommending folks short the stock, at what price do you cover?

[Chad Noles]

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:No. Why would we?

MCD:23.96 Down 1.32 (5.22%) 12-24-03

And if you are recommending folks short the stock, at what price do you cover?

I'm not recommending,just asking if anyone has taken such a position.Free stock advice on the web is worth the price you pay!:D

There are those who dabble in day-trading once again who may seek quick turns on news like the BSE announcement.

[Theodore Kurita]

Originally posted by richardm
I am quite intrigued to know how BSE has ended up in the USA. Was the offending cow imported, or have US farmers been following the same meat/bone meal path as everyone else? If the latter, then serves 'em right, really.

Edited to add: Or is it possible for the same syndrome to develop independently on different continents?

I have spent a few years researching, and reading all material on TSE's.

Sheep Bonemeal was banned from the United States cattle industry as well as the Eurpean cattle industry in hopes of preventing TSE transmission.


There are still lots of farmers that use Sheep Bonemeal illegaly.

That is one possibility...

The farmer might have been using bone meal that was created from a sheep that had scrapie.

I also have a theory for wasting diesease that is probably the best explanation of why it has been cropping up in the United States.

Most of the sheep bonemeal that was dumped after the ban imposed by the USA in 1997 was left mostly in; ponds, rivers, lakes, et cetera. However, if a dear would ingest scrappie ridden material, that could manifest in the dear, and appear as a new TSE.

Oh, and BTW, the mink thing is not new. Minks were fed bonemeal also.

Oh, and BTW... as for you Brits, you have to remember that the outbreak will not be so obvious until about 2010 - 2030. The reason is that CJD and nvCJD can have incubation periods of up to 70 years, or even more....


I am still wondering why bonemeal is still being used to this day.

There is evidence that the TSE Scrappie, can be transmitted to
any animal... Literally any animal.

The only exception to this seems to be humans, even that is not 100% certain.

Stanley Prusiner discovered that all TSE's are caused by prion protiens. He is currently still doing research on the protein.

The root cause for the spread of TSE's among animals is Bonemeal...

Which leaves the question, "Why do farmers still use bonemeal?"


There are several reason....

The biggest one is...

It is cheaper than soybean meal.

Soybean meal is much more expensive than bonemeal. Yet, bonemeal does so many things, and it is much cheaper that soybean meal.


The only way to take care of, and eliminate, the spread of TSE's is simple.

Get an outright ban on bonemeal!

I think that bonemeal should be substituted with Genetic Engineering and/or Soybean meal.

Another big reason that farmers love bonemeal is that they can get bigger cattle. The bigger the cattle, the more meat, the more profit for the farmer.

Genetic Engineering could perform such a feat easily.


Just My 2 Cents

[Theodore Kurita]

Originally posted by Synchronicity

But what if there are mad chickens? :eek:

P.S. Dude I got to totaly check out this vegitarian thing...

Yes, that is a possibility.

We already have eagles in the United States contracting "Wasting Disease" a type of TSE.

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992321



Funny you should mention the vegetarian thing because you could get mad cow from vegetables if a fertilizer that was used contains any of bones - I think it's true, just read it somewhere, someone please verify - which mean unless you grow your own, you'll be screwed just like the rest of us.


I get what you are saying.

I would recommend getting a copy of Deadly Feasts. The best book avaliable on TSE's.


Oh, and here is more evidence that our "feed regulation" is pathetic:


http://www.purefood.org/newsletter/biod31.cfm



Oh, and if you want the best possible info on TSE's here is the best site I have ever found for it:

http://www.mad-cow.org/

[Grammatron]

Theodore Kurita, based on all you said it's like you will die no matter what you eat. That's kind of depressing and makes me feel suicidal...I'll go eat raw steak.

[Theodore Kurita]

Originally posted by Grammatron
Theodore Kurita, based on all you said it's like you will die no matter what you eat. That's kind of depressing and makes me feel suicidal...I'll go eat raw steak.

Don't get depressed...

There is always FISH! :)

The one thing that has not been yet contaminated with any type of TSE.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Theodore Kurita


Don't get depressed...

There is always FISH! :)

The one thing that has not been yet contaminated with any type of TSE.

What about lobster?

[Theodore Kurita]

Originally posted by Grammatron


What about lobster?

Any seafood is safe. :)

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by Chad Noles
The Central Scrutinizer wrote:

MCD:23.96 Down 1.32 (5.22%) 12-24-03



I'm not recommending,just asking if anyone has taken such a position.Free stock advice on the web is worth the price you pay!:D

There are those who dabble in day-trading once again who may seek quick turns on news like the BSE announcement.

I guess I forgot the day traders. I was thinking more in terms of investing. Might be a buying opportunity for some stocks.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by Theodore Kurita


Don't get depressed...

There is always FISH! :)

The one thing that has not been yet contaminated with any type of TSE.

Just remember that fish swim in their own toilet. :D

[reprise]

Originally posted by Troll
so they celebrate another's problems? Damn. we just didn't take in the meat. Apparently you guys wanna insult as well

Cattle Council of Australia president Keith Adams said the case was bad news for Australian exporters sending product into the lucrative US market.

He said he was not even thinking about the possibility of any positives from potential worldwide bans on US beef exports.

"This is bad news for everybody – there's no upside to this," he said.

from Beef banned in mad cow scare (http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,8253940%255E421,00.html)

[Troll]

Originally posted by reprise


Cattle Council of Australia president Keith Adams said the case was bad news for Australian exporters sending product into the lucrative US market.

He said he was not even thinking about the possibility of any positives from potential worldwide bans on US beef exports.

"This is bad news for everybody – there's no upside to this," he said.

from Beef banned in mad cow scare (http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,8253940%255E421,00.html)

I was being facetious with AUP.

[Dids]

Originally posted by phildonnia


And that even more will die from heart disease and blood clots caused by too much Sat Fat and Cholesterol.
I was just thinking about that myself - the confirmed deaths from vCJD in the UK has been in the order of 20-30 per year (or less) and seems to be decreasing, yet the Aitkins diet, for instance, has been associated with that sort of heart disease stuff, plus I've read of other diseases that may be caused by too much meat - liver damage, I think.

In addition, there's all the growth hormones in US beef (aren't they banned in the EU?) and the antibiotics, which are also associated with other nasty effects, yet none of them seem to have put USAians off their steak. Yet, one cow goes down, and it's panic like headless chicken time.

[Theodore Kurita]

Originally posted by Dids

I was just thinking about that myself - the confirmed deaths from vCJD in the UK has been in the order of 20-30 per year (or less) and seems to be decreasing, yet the Aitkins diet, for instance, has been associated with that sort of heart disease stuff, plus I've read of other diseases that may be caused by too much meat - liver damage, I think.

In addition, there's all the growth hormones in US beef (aren't they banned in the EU?) and the antibiotics, which are also associated with other nasty effects, yet none of them seem to have put USAians off their steak. Yet, one cow goes down, and it's panic like headless chicken time.


You have to also remember that nvCJD and regular CJD have been often misdiagnosed as Alzheimer's Disease.

As for the low rate of contractions in the UK.

Remember what I said earlier.

CJD an nvCJD can have huge incubations periods of DECADES.

[reprise]

Originally posted by Theodore Kurita



You have to also remember that nvCJD and regular CJD have been often misdiagnosed as Alzheimer's Disease.

As for the low rate of contractions in the UK.

Remember what I said earlier.

CJD an nvCJD can have huge incubations periods of DECADES.

Any confusion between CJD and Alzheimer's disease could only occur where a clinical diagnosis has been made and no autopsy performed.

No-one is seriously expecting an explosion of vCJD cases twenty years from now, and I would like to see some credible evidence that CJD and vCJD can have a latency period of up to 70 years (in respect of vCJD, in particular, this is pure speculation). Most of the data we have about the latency period for CJD comes from cases which developed after the administration of Human Growth Hormone, and we cannot necessarily extrapolate that data to vCJD. We need to remember that the various TSEs are discrete entities and that we don't yet know enough about the more recently discovered ones to speculate with any certainty.

[Theodore Kurita]

Originally posted by reprise


Any confusion between CJD and Alzheimer's disease could only occur where a clinical diagnosis has been made and no autopsy performed.

No-one is seriously expecting an explosion of vCJD cases twenty years from now, and I would like to see some credible evidence that CJD and vCJD can have a latency period of up to 70 years (in respect of vCJD, in particular, this is pure speculation). Most of the data we have about the latency period for CJD comes from cases which developed after the administration of Human Growth Hormone, and we cannot necessarily extrapolate that data to vCJD. We need to remember that the various TSEs are discrete entities and that we don't yet know enough about the more recently discovered ones to speculate with any
certainty.

The period is speculation for nvCJD. However, the bulk of evidence out there suggests that CJD can have an incubation period up to 70 years!

I will drag out my medical textbooks for this debate later on today.

I have spent years reading material on TSE's...

The idea itself is fascinating.

Just one screwed up fold in a PrP protein, and you can get CJD.

Anywho, I will post a lengthy reference point for all of this later on today.

[Troll]

Well now it appears it may not be a true American cow. There seems to be a chance that this cow infiltrated the US from Canada, probably taking advantage of our lax border policy with Canada. The good news is the cow didn't appear to be armed. The bad news is PETA and some foreign countries may complain about the DNA gathering process.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/12/27/mad.cow/index.html

[evildave]

The cow was suspected of having BSE, so they sent the brain, spinal cord & lower intestines to be tested --- AND THEN THEY PROCESSED THE REST!!!

BASTARDS!

http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/7581646.htm
On Dec. 11 its carcass was shipped to Midway Meats in Centralia, Wash., where the meat was removed from the bones, said Kenneth Petersen and official with the USDA's Food Safety and Inspection Service. On Dec. 12, Midway Meats shipped a variety of boneless meat products to two processors, Interstate Meat Distributors in Clackamas, Ore., and Willamette Valley Meat in Portland, Ore.

http://www.newsday.com/news/health/wire/sns-ap-mad-cow-timeline,0,2168853.story?coll=sns-ap-health-headlines
Dec. 9: Slaughtered at Vern's Moses Lake Meats in Moses Lake, Wash. Carcass sent to Midway Meats in Centralia, Wash., for deboning. Meat cuts sent to two processing plants in the Portland, Ore., area -- Willamette Valley Meats and Interstate Meats -- which ground the beef and sell some to retailers in Washington, Oregon, California and Nevada.

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/front_page/107253010511210.xml
Willamette Valley Meat sells cuts of meat, not ground beef, and has recalled all the cuts of beef linked to the infected cow. Klein said most of the low-grade beef that reached Willamette Valley Meat never left the company's cavernous freezer, and nearly all that was sold has been returned unopened. That meat went primarily to companies that use it for pepperoni, jerky, sausage and other beef products.

After 20 cows were slaughtered Dec. 9 at Vern's Moses Lakes Meats, including one cow later found to be infected with mad cow disease, the carcasses traveled a path that led to the two Portland-area meat purveyors.

The boneless meat went to Interstate Meat, which ground and distributed the meat to customers including major grocery chains on Dec. 12 and Dec. 15 as part of shipments of 19,758 pounds of ground beef and patties.

The cuts of meat containing bones went to Willamette Valley Meat, a company that brothers Mark and Jeff Klein founded in January 1998. Mark Klein estimates the shipment they received contained about 2,000 pounds of beef.

Their company provides specialty meats such as custom cuts of chicken, duck, pork and beef that end up in local grocery stores, restaurants and ethnic markets. It does a fraction of its business in low-grade dairy cow meat, Klein said.


OK, who was it that said this wasn't for HUMAN consumption?

In a word: BULL!

I suppose they sell jerky, sausage and pepperoni to dogs?

And why would it be OK to give BSE tainted meat to dogs, cats or other pets or animals? What other use could they have for deboned meat? Cattle feed?

The stories cover how ticked off the meat distributors are that they were passed meat that was suspected by the FDA to be tainted.

Well guess what? I'm a bit miffed, too. Why was that cow's meat so very precious that it absolutely had to go into pepperoni as soon as possible? I don't want BSE on my pizza! Fortunately, I already eat veggie pizzas.

I think I'll switch over to vegetarianism. That's it for cattle, for sure.

[LTC8K6]

As I understand it, you can't get CJD or nvCJD from eating regular cuts of beef anyway. Even if the cow had mad cow disease for sure.

You'd have to eat nervous system tissue like the brain, spinal cord, or retina. That's why they are removed before processing.

That's why it was okay to process the cow in question.

I am unsure of what the big scare is for humans. I understand the threat to the loss of cattle from BSE.

I suppose there is a small risk in processed meats where nervous system tissue might be accidentally ground up with muscle tissue, but I see no risk in eating say, a steak or a roast.

Curiously, the incidence of CJD appears to be the same in both vegetarians and meat eaters.

[Troll]

Originally posted by LTC8K6
As I understand it, you can't get CJD or nvCJD from eating regular cuts of beef anyway. Even if the cow had mad cow disease for sure.

You'd have to eat nervous system tissue like the brain, spinal cord, or retina. That's why they are removed before processing.

That's why it was okay to process the cow in question.

I am unsure of what the big scare is for humans. I understand the threat to the loss of cattle from BSE.

I suppose there is a small risk in processed meats where nervous system tissue might be accidentally ground up with muscle tissue, but I see no risk in eating say, a steak or a roast.

Curiously, the incidence of CJD appears to be the same in both vegetarians and meat eaters.

I am of the same train of thought there. a steak itself should be fine, just stay away from brain and organ meats. I'm not sure though

Are you serious about the vegetarians? If so I find that interesting.

[evildave]

http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/bse/bse-science/level-4-pathog.html#distribute

Up to and including 18 months post infection, the only evidence of infectivity has been in the wall of the lower small intestine (distal ileum). This was an expected result because of the presence of Peyer's patches (lymphoid tissue) in the wall of the intestine. As infectivity was detectable as early as six months post-infection the definition of specified bovine offals was extended to include the intestines of calves.

Dectection of infectivity in tissues collected from calves killed more than 18 months post infection are now complete and have been published. Infectivity was detected in the intestine when the animals were clinically affected as well as in the brain, spinal cord, dorsal root and the trigeminal ganglia beginning 3 months before clinical onset. Bone marrow was slightly infectious when clinically affected.

Ahh, but that spinal cord is a problem. Runs right near a lot of good meat, as well as major nerves branching off of it. "Dorsal root" would be attachment points of nerves to the spinal cord.

In the intestines? So much for Menudo. Old fashioned sausages made from intestine are also not good. It's very easy to breach intestines while slaughtering an animal. That'll mix up with your sausages nicely.

And even if you rip that old spinal cord out, can you really guarantee there is no BSE in major nerves a little way out from it. Say, in that nice meat along its back? And can you guarantee that a man who strips nerves out of carcases for a meat grinder will get EVERY INCH OUT, EVERY TIME?

Bone marrow, too! Saw into or through a bone to make processing a little easier, and you have BSE mixed in the meat. Nice. Have you never seen a t-bone steak? Bone right in it. Someone sawed through in sections. How about the pulverized bone bits occasionally found in hamburger? Never, ever got any of it?

I find a lot of this BSE denial sounds quite a lot like a lot of the "HIV doesn't cause AIDS" denial.

At least if you're going to make a cooing, soothing sounds like "Curiously, the incidence of CJD appears to be the same in both vegetarians and meat eaters.", then I'd like to see some links to studies supporting this nonsense.

Sounds exactly like you're saying "Curiously, people who don't have sex have the same incidense of STD as people who do."

It could be that products like gelatin (Jelly, Jell-O, Gummy bears, etc.) are commonly mistaken as not being made from animals (the gelatin in these fruity foods actually comes from connective tissue and cartilage - faces and feet and ribs and joints and the bits between vertebrae), and that you practically can't get anything to eat from mainstream sources that doesn't have processed animal products (like gelatin) mixed in somehow.

[LTC8K6]

All of my info came from here:

http://w3.aces.uiuc.edu/AnSci/BSE/Index_BSE_Info_at_UIUC_Science.htm

What made you think I would post something like that out of the blue?

The incidence of CJD world wide is approximately 1 per million population.

The incidence of CJD is not different between meat eating and vegetarian populations
The incidence in Britain is no higher than other countries
Concern stemmed from the unusual cluster and characteristics of the CJD cases.

[evildave]

The information is a little behind the times: the repeated bold-faced "No cases in USA" points all need to be removed.

This portion of the site seems more relevant to me: http://w3.aces.uiuc.edu/AnSci/BSE/Human_vCJD_Linkage_to_BSE.htm

In 1996, the British Spongiform Encephalopathy Advisory Committee (SEAC) concluded that, "the most likely explanation at present is that these cases are linked to exposure to BSE before the introduction of the specified bovine offal (SBO) ban in 1989". The government stressed that there is still no proof of a definite link but accepted that the new evidence was cause for concern.

The new vCJD identified in the UK was suggested to have originated by ingestion of high-titre materials in the mid-1980's before the specified bovine offal (SBO) ban, representing an incubation period of 5-10 years. The shortest incubation period of a human prion disease is for kuru (where no species barrier exists) is 4 - 5 years.

* In experimental models, the time to onset of clinical symptoms is longer if the infectious material is from another species versus the time to onset of symptoms if the infectious material is obtained from the same species

* the time to onset of clinical symptoms shortens once the TSE strain is passaged within the new species; i.e. adapted


They also have a table right there on the same page that shows the DIFFERENCES between normal CJD and vCJD brought on by consumption of contaminated food.

BSE induced vCJD appears to be different from typical CJD. In other words, your "The incidence of CJD is not different between meat eating and vegetarian populations" quote appears to be an apples and oranges comparsion: comparing similar, but different CJD and vCJD diseases.

[Troll]

Originally posted by LTC8K6
All of my info came from here:

http://w3.aces.uiuc.edu/AnSci/BSE/Index_BSE_Info_at_UIUC_Science.htm

What made you think I would post something like that out of the blue?



Nothing made me think you'd pull it out of the blue. I was just surprised by it.

[LTC8K6]

E.D., That's why I said CJD and not nvCJD.

It still appears that they have not definitely connected the U.K. nvCJD cases to BSE, although they believe it.

Of course the site doesn't have the one U.S. case listed yet.

Some UK info with stats of cases.

http://www.doh.gov.uk/cjd/whatiscjd.htm

Cases of nvCJD are being found among long term vegetarians, but there is always the incubation time to consider and the possibility of inadvertent consumption of BSE contaminated food.

[evildave]

It's just sort of nice to know that given a cow they suspect of having BSE enough to have it tested, they decided to go ahead and process and sell the meat anyway.

Did you know if you give a sheep antibiotics, you can't legally slaughter it for a month? Just for an infection that cooking would certainly kill. Probably also because someone who's allergic to antibiotics might have a reaction.

But it's OK to sell BSE tainted meat???

It makes you wonder how much of this goes on that doesn't ever make the news. The odd cows who "only shake a little", or have obvious problems like festering sores. It all looks the same in sausage. It makes a burger for a happy meal like any other mystery meat.

And they have the nerve to tell us the system "works", when 10,000 pounds of meat have to be recalled, and meat is being returned from retail outlets "mostly unopened".

All they had to do is NOT SELL THAT COW CARCASS. That's all. But it would be a shame to "waste" that meat. After all, it might only be heavy metal poisoning, and not BSE after all.

Of course, there was that little case back in the '70s where someone accidentally mixed a fire retardant in with some livestock feed at the plant... and when they discovered the error, they decided to simply dillute the bad feed with more feed. They shipped it out and had to kill and bury thousands of animals, pretty much as toxic waste.
It contaminated the milk supply.

Do a web search for "PBB and Michigan" for a bunch of versions of that story.

Let's face it, all the cattle industry and FDA are really good at is putting spin on stories, and damage control. Like the minimum wage "security" at airports. All for show. When the disaster happens, it's not actually 30 years of government's criminal negligence. Of course not. It's time for BIGGER government to have more power, to be more negligent with it.