Infowars: Firefighters know there were bombs, but afraid for jobs [Archive]

CYiNCE

21st October 2009, 06:34 PM

9/11 Chewy Defense

21st October 2009, 06:48 PM

defaultdotxbe

21st October 2009, 07:01 PM

im not a firefighter but i have known several, and i can say with 100% certainty not one of them would care about losing their job if it meant bringing justice to those responsible for the deaths of 341 firefighters in the WTC

WildCat

21st October 2009, 07:08 PM

Well I would gladly cover up the murder of thousands for that sweet sweet pension, oh yeah!

triforcharity

21st October 2009, 07:30 PM

morgasm

21st October 2009, 07:34 PM

"Afraid of losing their jobs" = "experts in the field of firefighting/engineering/demolition/political science who disagree with me are lying but I don want to antagonize them but calling them liars"

What next? Bush knew Cheney was planning the attacks but kept his mouth shut so he wouldn't lose his job?

I know JREF members are all shills but don't want to talk for fear of losing my NWO pension and choice of which FEMA camp I get sent to?:jaw-dropp

9/11 Chewy Defense

21st October 2009, 07:57 PM

If a Truther happens to be caught in a house fire, I'll save them.

If a Truther happens to be in a vehicule accident, I'll be there to assist.

If a Truther happens to be at Ground Zero & says that I'm a "shill" or that I was "paid by the Government" or a "liar", they're asking for it.

1 thing Truthers:

Never, ever, EVER tell a firefighter that he's full of **** or a "liar". Trust me, you really don't want to do that. NEVER!

Travis

21st October 2009, 08:07 PM

I've known a few firefighters and I can attest that, given their temperament and loyalty, this idea is not worth the bytes used to display it on anyone's monitor.

R.Mackey

21st October 2009, 08:14 PM

We will run into a burning building for a complete stranger, but we wouldn't speak out against the people that killed 343 of our closest family?? Come on now. That is ******* stupid.

Well spoken.

dropzone

21st October 2009, 08:14 PM

We will run into a burning building for a complete stranger, but we wouldn't speak out against the people that killed 343 of our closest family?? Come on now. That is ******* stupid. This. By the usual standards firefighters are pure-D crazy. They care nothing for themselves, which they demonstrate by running INTO burning buildings. One can explain that by saying that they, adding to their Boy Scout personalities, are adrenalin junkies. I can accept that, having tasted the Demon A with nothing to make my addiction positive. In my experience they hold nothing else dearer than their Honor, which also requires them to run into burning buildings. One shouldn't question a man's Honor, even in the sissified 21st century. Truthers are lucky they get away with just strong words, because they deserve MUCH more. :mad:

Grizzly Bear

21st October 2009, 08:18 PM

I'm once again reminded of one of the very first reasons why I myself didn't become a truther when I was most vulnerable to becoming a nut case. They fail at logic before they even get to their main talking points...

triforcharity

21st October 2009, 09:05 PM

I have said this before. For those who have seen the movie "Chuck and Larry". The ending pretty much shows what lengths firefighters will go for each other. It doesn't matter what happens. We will stand up for our Brothers, and will stand behind each other, no matter the consequences. Expecially if its the right thing to do.

Mel Odious

21st October 2009, 09:24 PM

So these guys ...

- The Higgins family: Retired FDNY Captain Ed, FDNY firefighter brothers Joe, Mike, and Bob, and NYPD Sergeant Mike, whose son and brother Timothy died on 9/11.

– Lee Ielpi, one of the most decorated firefighters in FDNY history and his son, firefighter Brendan, whose son and brother Jonathan died on 9/11.

– Captain John Vigiano, whose firefighter sons John and Joseph died on 9/11.

– Jimmy Boyle, retired FDNY union president, whose firefighter son Michael died on 9/11.

– Chief Jim Riches, whose son James died on 9/11.

– Chief Eddie Schoales, whose son Thomas died on 9/11.

– Captain Bill Butler, whose son Jonathan died on 9/11.

– Battalion Chief Joe Pfeifer, whose brother Kevin died on 9/11.

– Lieutentant Tommy Brunton, whose brother Vincent died on 9/11.

– Lieutenant Dennis O'Berg, whose son Dennis died on 9/11.

– Lieutenant Paul Geidel, whose son Gary died on 9/11.

– Fire Patrolman Mike Angelini, whose firefighter brother Joseph and nephew Joseph Jr died on 9/11.

... are all staying quiet for fear of losing their jobs.

Yeah. Sure.

BillyRayValentine

21st October 2009, 10:29 PM

Being a jaded New Yorker, there are few people I admire. Firefighters are an exception to that rule.

I'd very much like to see Mr. Mazza share his thoughts with the guys from my local firehouse, which lost 7 men that day. That might set his mind right...

9/11 Chewy Defense

21st October 2009, 10:44 PM

I left a few posts on the link:

http://www.infowars.com/ex-cia-chief-james-woolsey-handed-down-gag-order-to-911-firefighters/

Way on the bottom!

eromitlab

22nd October 2009, 01:58 AM

Looks like we can count on the truthers to continue going nowhere near firehouses on their future street actions in New York City. As if they ever have.

I wonder why?

Fjolle

22nd October 2009, 02:29 AM

As a former firefighter i just want to say: **** you Alex Jones Jerry Mazza.

BigAl

22nd October 2009, 02:37 AM

We've had several hundred people, many of them first responders, die a slow death due to the air they breathed at WTC. The idea that these people had been living under a gag order for 8 years and yet none of them made a public death-bed statement blowing the whistle on what killed them and their friends is silly and insulting to the first responders living and dead.

bill smith

22nd October 2009, 03:53 AM

This is assinine at the very least.

We will run into a burning building for a complete stranger, but we wouldn't speak out against the people that killed 343 of our closest family?? Come on now. That is ******* stupid.

People in the TM seem to forget, or cannot comprehend the bond that firefighters share. There is a reason we call each other brothers. And the reason we use brothers is because that is the strongest word in the English language to describe the bond that we have with each other. Its much stronger than that.

We put our lives in each others hands every single time we go into a burning building. Every single time. I don't second guess them, ever.

I think firemen are great but not one whit better than a cop or a soldier. All in a day's work as they say. By the way have you ever wondered where these firefighters in the link disappeared to ? Do you ave any information about their later careers in the FD ? They are all named.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ4dVo5QgYg Firemen's Testimony- Study

dtugg

22nd October 2009, 03:59 AM

bs, don't you believe that the FDNY was in on it?

PS: 53 days.

cludgie

22nd October 2009, 04:23 AM

I don't recall hearing of any of the many troofers who are ex-military (and have used thie previous status as a means to argue from apparent authority) having their pensions cut, so why on earth would a firefighting troofer be at such a risk?

Björn Toulouse

22nd October 2009, 04:47 AM

If a Truther happens to be caught in a house fire, I'll save them......

I'm not a firefighter, but I would do the same even if it was Alex Jones - but I would be so tempted to break down his door with an axe to reach him even if I knew it was unlocked.

9/11 Chewy Defense

22nd October 2009, 05:10 AM

I'm not a firefighter, but I would do the same even if it was Alex Jones - but I would be so tempted to break down his door with an axe to reach him even if I knew it was unlocked.

Alot of people would do the same, alot of people want to get at him, but since a firefighters job is to rescue people it's just a little uncalled for to beat him up. I think Jones would appreciate firefighters a bit more if that happened to him.

Or not!

Who knows if a firefighter was at a scene if Jones had a car accident? He's just not telling anyone.

If Jones wants to say stuff about the firefighters, he's more than welcome to visit any and all firehouses in the U.S.

kookbreaker

22nd October 2009, 05:22 AM

If Jones wants to say stuff about the firefighters, he's more than welcome to visit any and all firehouses in the U.S.

Ever notice Alex Jones never travels in NYC without his mob? He couldn't even confront (i.e. scream at) Michelle Madnick, who is 5 foot nothing without his mob.

He is the ultimate gutless wonder.

9/11 Chewy Defense

22nd October 2009, 05:29 AM

Ever notice Alex Jones never travels in NYC without his mob? He couldn't even confront (i.e. scream at) Michelle Madnick, who is 5 foot nothing without his mob.

He is the ultimate gutless wonder.

Well, that's just more proof that Alex Jones created a mob for the Truth Movement (TM). And you know what they say about mobs who get out of control? Not a good scene!

I would LOVE for Alex Jones to visit #10 House that's located near the WTC Site. I would love to see him accuse the firefighters there. I would love to see how true Americans get into his face for a change and tell him that he's a gutless yellow turd.

Hell, all of NYC should get into his face! That would be absolutely priceless.

Alex Jones is just yellow!

9/11 Chewy Defense

22nd October 2009, 05:43 AM

Alex Jones reminds me of King Bowser from all those Super Mario Brothers games:

http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1824771

Imagine Bowser as Alex Jones and the charactors are his followers rebelling against him. Mario could be Richard Gage or David Ray Griffin or someone else.

Lenbrazil

22nd October 2009, 05:53 AM

Amazing! Not only is Mazza so clueless he starts off calling Isaac a "Lieutenant Fireman" but then a few paragraphs below quotes Syzmansky calling him "an auxiliary fireman" he apparently missed (or feigned ignorance) that "NYSentinel" has long since denied he ever said these things. Isaac left quite a few comments indicating he rejects all this. Claims he never said it pretty obviously he changed his mind.

Some of his details changed he claimed to have been a block away when WTC1 came down but in later versions was by City Hall. And a couple of years after the attacks despite have supposedly meticulously researched them was still saying stuff like:

“There are a couple of interesting facts, along with numerous other inconsistencies, which have led me to seriously question how the government claims the tower’s fell by jet fuel alone.”

What done of these bozos explained is if the “gag order” came from Woolsey how the police and firefighters were kept quite for the year before he became a consultant.

Besides the fallacy that these guys wouldn’t shut up for money, the truthernoids seem completely ignorant over how civil service and pensions work. It’s not that easy to fire civil servants, it’s a complicated process and the city would have to show just cause. Talking away someone’s pension is near impossible IIRC Edwin Wilson still got his despite being convicted of felonies.

9/11 Chewy Defense

22nd October 2009, 05:57 AM

Björn Toulouse

22nd October 2009, 06:46 AM

Alot of people would do the same, alot of people want to get at him, but since a firefighters job is to rescue people it's just a little uncalled for to beat him up. I think Jones would appreciate firefighters a bit more if that happened to him.

Just to clarify my statement further, I don't advocate beating him up - just the door. It reminds me of a scene I saw in a movie where a guy had illegally parked his car in front of a fire hydrant and a fire broke out across the street. The fireman could have easily ran the hose over or around the car, but instead, they chopped all of the windows out of the car and ran the hose through it. The message is clear, and it would satisfy a little mischievous streak of mine if presented with such an opportunity

johnny karate

22nd October 2009, 07:09 AM

bs, don't you believe that the FDNY was in on it?

Yes, he does.

triforcharity

22nd October 2009, 07:18 AM

I think firemen are great but not one whit better than a cop or a soldier. All in a day's work as they say. By the way have you ever wondered where these firefighters in the link disappeared to ? Do you ave any information about their later careers in the FD ? They are all named.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ4dVo5QgYg Firemen's Testimony- Study

Not this ******* pile of crap movie again.

Bill, write down all their names, and submit a FOIA request. Its not that hard Bill. All you have to do is ask. Stuff like that is all public record, with a few exceptions.

Now, run along and find the bird.

Macgyver1968

22nd October 2009, 07:23 AM

Isn't there a way to stop Alex Jones's radio show?

Hasn't he violated FCC Law and Codes?

Something has to be done to get him off the air.

But then the Truthers will claim that the "Gov." shut him up when in reality it was just ordinary citizens. More Conspiracy Theories for them nitwits. Bring it on!

While he says stupid things, he does have the right to say them. That whole pesky 1st Amendment thing. What will get him off the air is a loss of ratings. When he is no longer bankable to the radio stations, they will drop him like a hot rock.

About the firefighters, Tri has brought this up before...they are all members of a very strong union. If someone threatened their job, the NY firefighter would grab his crotch, and say "I've got your job threats right here...talk to my union rep!"

Harpo

22nd October 2009, 07:46 AM

I'm not a firefighter, but I would do the same even if it was Alex Jones - but I would be so tempted to break down his door with an axe to reach him even if I knew it was unlocked.

There wouldnt even need to be a fire for me to choose do the full Jack Torrance thing.

"Little pigs, little pigs, let me come in. Not by the hair of your chiny-chin-chin? Well then I'll huff and I'll puff, and I'll blow your house in."

or in Jones's case

"Fat pig, fat pig, let me come in....etc"

I agree that Jones is the worst sort of coward. I cannot imagine how mad this must make members of the FDNY. I'd like to see him, the Watson brothers (or any of his website devotees - armchair generals one and all) stand outside my son's barracks and call soldiers "cowards" or "shills". :mad:

CurtC

22nd October 2009, 08:16 AM

Bombs in the buildings? OMG! What's next, little green men from another world took down the WTCs' with a death ray from space?

I see you're kinda new around here - when you said this, were you already aware of Judy Wood? She's a prominent truther "scientist" who thinks the towers were brought down with energy beams from space (not little green men, but from our government satellites).

sylvan8798

22nd October 2009, 08:43 AM

It reminds me of a scene I saw in a movie where a guy had illegally parked his car in front of a fire hydrant and a fire broke out across the street. The fireman could have easily ran the hose over or around the car, but instead, they chopped all of the windows out of the car and ran the hose through it. The message is clear, and it would satisfy a little mischievous streak of mine if presented with such an opportunity

Wasn't that in Backdraft? I haven't parked anywhere NEAR a fire hydrant since I saw that movie. Apparently they actually do it if necessary:

http://www.wusa9.com/news/columnist/blogs/uploaded_images/NJ-Gloucester-hose-through-car-759095.jpg

http://boldt.us/8557-2/no_parking_fire_hydrant_bmw_windows.jpg

I once had a side window shattered by a deer and I never did get all the glass out of the car. They break into microscopic slivers.

sylvan8798

22nd October 2009, 08:58 AM

http://www.infowars.com/ex-cia-chief-james-woolsey-handed-down-gag-order-to-911-firefighters/

This infowars story has some of my favourite truther talking points, including, but no limited to pyroclastic flow, free fall, and fire melted steel. The boldest (and most asinine) claim being that the fire fighters saw bombs, but are afraid to tell anyone for fear of losing their jobs. It honestly reads like it was written by a debunker as a parody. Just thought I would share.

Gotta love how the "just asking questions" truthers don't ask too many questions about this claim. Like:

1) Did you really SEE bombs, or were you just hearing things explode?

2) Where were these bombs that you saw? Were they just lying around the lobby? Were they hidden in elevator shafts? Were they up in the ceiling plenum? Why were you looking in the elevator shafts? Wasn't there falling, flaming debris in the elevator shafts? Didn't you have more urgent matters, like trying to get people out of danger?

3) How did you identify what you saw as a bomb or bombs? Did they have little ticking timers on them? Did they have a bunch of wires, dyn-o-mite, and digital timers? What time were they set to go off? Did they have lit fuses and look like this:

http://matchstickseo.com/images/bomb.jpg

4) If the bombs were lying about the lobby, how is it that the office workers and security personnel didn't notice them? Were they disguised as autumn decorations? What expertise do you have that you could recognize a decoration as being a bomb in the midst of the chaos and terror of that morning?

If the truthers actually asked a few questions about their own asinine ideas, they probably wouldn't stay truthers for long...

Björn Toulouse

22nd October 2009, 09:00 AM

Wasn't that in Backdraft? I haven't parked anywhere NEAR a fire hydrant since I saw that movie. Apparently they actually do it if necessary:

I'm sure I saw it in some movie - maybe that was it and believe me, even though I have never done it, after seeing that, I vowed never to do it for any reason.

We used to joke about the firefighters with their axes and the EMT's with their scissors, you know, the guys who cut your whole pants leg off to treat a stumped toe.

I'm exaggerating of course but I remember one patient brought to me who complained about the EMT's hacking off his shirtsleeve when the he seemingly could have safely removed it without the cutting.

sts60

22nd October 2009, 09:57 AM

It depends on the situation. I won't ruin your clothes for a simple arm injury if I can avoid it. But if you're a trauma, sorry, out come the shears.

But if your car's in front of the hydrant - no choice there. You're losing two windows, and gaining a 4" line in one side and out the other. Parking in front of a hydrant is a no-no, and large-diameter hose likes to be straight when it's charged. Once we're done and we break everything down, then you can go get your windows fixed... once you've claimed your vehicle from the police impound lot.

njslim

22nd October 2009, 10:57 AM

Just to clarify my statement further, I don't advocate beating him up - just the door. It reminds me of a scene I saw in a movie where a guy had illegally parked his car in front of a fire hydrant and a fire broke out across the street. The fireman could have easily ran the hose over or around the car, but instead, they chopped all of the windows out of the car and ran the hose through it. The message is clear, and it would satisfy a little mischievous streak of mine if presented with such an opportunity

Had to do this once on mutual aid run into nearby city - somebody parked right next
to hydrant we were connecting to. Dropped 5" hose right over hood of this moron's car

Left nice crease as reminder not to park there..... (He he he)

bill smith

22nd October 2009, 01:28 PM

Not this ******* pile of crap movie again.

Bill, write down all their names, and submit a FOIA request. Its not that hard Bill. All you have to do is ask. Stuff like that is all public record, with a few exceptions.

Now, run along and find the bird.

But Matt those guys nust be absolute legends in the FDNY. The ones who heard explosions and saw flashes alone were 118 in number. Surely as a FDNY guy since you were a teenager you can tell us some interesting stories about them ? Or is that a secret? Or have you heard nothing more about them, the same as the rest of us ?

phunk

22nd October 2009, 01:41 PM

Why would they be legends for seeing things that are expected in any large fire?

liverleef

22nd October 2009, 01:51 PM

All the firefighters from 911 claim to suspect explosives were planted. Shortly afterward they are all fired.

Well there certainly wouldn't be anything suspicious about that. Nope, wouldn't raise any eyebrows at all.

johnny karate

22nd October 2009, 01:57 PM

Why would they be legends for seeing things that are expected in any large fire?

bill smith thinks the FDNY participated in an inside job conspiracy, so his musings on what firefighters might say or do are clearly those of a deranged mind.

bill smith

22nd October 2009, 02:16 PM

bill smith thinks the FDNY participated in an inside job conspiracy, so his musings on what firefighters might say or do are clearly those of a deranged mind.

You show my position accurately in your signature.

twinstead

22nd October 2009, 03:27 PM

You show my position accurately in your signature.

And we all know just how ludicrous your statement was. You are the only one who doesn't get it.

Lenbrazil

22nd October 2009, 03:53 PM

But Matt those guys nust be absolute legends in the FDNY. The ones who heard explosions and saw flashes alone were 118 in number. Surely as a FDNY guy since you were a teenager you can tell us some interesting stories about them ? Or is that a secret? Or have you heard nothing more about them, the same as the rest of us ?

So how many of those 118 said AFTER 9/11 they still thought the noises they heard were due to explosives? IIRC there's only 2

1) FDNY FF Louie Cacchioli who was in the North Tower and supposedly said this to People on 9/12 but said in an interview with a truther "journalist" (Syzmanski?) he'd been misquoted. The 'explosion' he heard happened at the same time the South Tower collapsed

AND

2) Patty Ormavich (sp?) the EMT who said she heard pops in the lobby of 6 WTC at the moment 2 WTC was collapsing and claimed shortly afterward to have seen a jetliner explode over NJ (something no one else reported seeing).

Lenbrazil

22nd October 2009, 03:59 PM

You show my position accurately in your signature.

bill smith: "When I say the 'FDNY' was involved in 9/11 I am invariably referring to bad elements within the FDNY. Probably no more than a few dozen..."

So it's only the most senior guys i.e. the ones who'd been risking their lives to save strangers in exchange for a fairly meager salary* the longest? Does that include the ones who were killed and/or lost family members and/or people who'd been close friends for decades. What you propose is truly foul but you have your head to firmly entrenched in another part of your anatomy to think about it.

* http://www.nyc.gov/html/fdny/html/community/ff_faq_080106.shtml#starting

bill smith

22nd October 2009, 04:10 PM

So how many of those 118 said AFTER 9/11 they still thought the noises they heard were due to explosives? IIRC there's only 2

1) FDNY FF Louie Cacchioli who was in the North Tower and supposedly said this to People on 9/12 but said in an interview with a truther "journalist" (Syzmanski?) he'd been misquoted. The 'explosion' he heard happened at the same time the South Tower collapsed

AND

2) Patty Ormavich (sp?) the EMT who said she heard pops in the lobby of 6 WTC at the moment 2 WTC was collapsing and claimed shortly afterward to have seen a jetliner explode over NJ (something no one else reported seeing).

he case for there having really been bombs in the buidings is heavily strengthened by the simple fact that the firemen had all seen planes flying into the buildings. As a result the last thng on Earth they would have expected at that minute was that there were also bombs in the buildings.

So it is remarkable to find firemen under those circumstances saying things like:-

Stephen Gregory -- Assistant Commissioner (F.D.N.Y.) We both for whatever reason -- again, I don't know how valid this is with everything that was going on at that particular point in time, but for some reason I thought that when I looked in the direction of the Trade Center before it came down, before No. 2 came down, that I saw low-level flashes. In my conversation with Lieutenant Evangelista, never mentioning this to him, he questioned me and asked me if I saw low-level flashes in front of the building, and I agreed with him because I thought -- at that time I didn't know what it was. I mean, it could have been as a result of the building collapsing, things exploding, but I saw a flash flash flash and then it looked like the building came down.
...
'' [It was at] the lower level of the building. You know like when they demolish a building, how when they blow up a building, when it falls down? That's what I thought I saw. ''

9/11 Chewy Defense

22nd October 2009, 04:13 PM

I see you're kinda new around here - when you said this, were you already aware of Judy Wood? She's a prominent truther "scientist" who thinks the towers were brought down with energy beams from space (not little green men, but from our government satellites).

I know about Judy Wood & that's why I made the comment.

Also see the thread I made: "Jim Fetzer doesn't make sense"

johnny karate

22nd October 2009, 04:22 PM

Here's what else is in Stephen Gregory's testimony, non-fraudulent-liar edition:

I don't know if that means anything. I mean, I equate it to the building coming down and pushing things down, it could have been electrical explosions, it could have been whatever.

Perhaps Stephen Gregory is just covering up "the truth" because he's one of the "bad elements" in the FDNY.

dudalb

22nd October 2009, 05:24 PM

I love the way the Truthers shed crocodile tears for the brave FDNY one minute, while accusing them of being "in on the coverup" the next.
They are truly beneath contempt.
And agreed about Alex Jones being a gutless wonder.

TheBigKahuna

22nd October 2009, 05:54 PM

Stephen Gregory -- Assistant Commissioner (F.D.N.Y.) We both for whatever reason -- again, I don't know how valid this is with everything that was going on at that particular point in time, but for some reason I thought that when I looked in the direction of the Trade Center before it came down, before No. 2 came down, that I saw low-level flashes. In my conversation with Lieutenant Evangelista, never mentioning this to him, he questioned me and asked me if I saw low-level flashes in front of the building, and I agreed with him because I thought -- at that time I didn't know what it was. I mean, it could have been as a result of the building collapsing, things exploding, but I saw a flash flash flash and then it looked like the building came down.
...
'' [It was at] the lower level of the building. You know like when they demolish a building, how when they blow up a building, when it falls down? That's what I thought I saw. ''

If there were explosives planted in the lower levels, which would be what you would expect to see in a conventional demolition, why did the buildings collapse from the point of airplane impact. :cool:

9/11 Chewy Defense

22nd October 2009, 05:58 PM

Everyone,

Ask Bill this simple question that he's been ignoring since I addressed it to him about his claim about RDX explosives:

If there were any RDX explosives in the WTCs', why didn't the bomb sniffing dogs detect them BEFORE 9/11?

Bill completely ignores that question like the plague.

"This question is the ultimate Force in JREF. I suggest we use it!"

Lenbrazil

22nd October 2009, 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by Lenbrazil
So how many of those 118 said AFTER 9/11 they still thought the noises they heard were due to explosives? IIRC there's only 2

1) FDNY FF Louie Cacchioli who was in the North Tower and supposedly said this to People on 9/12 but said in an interview with a truther "journalist" (Syzmanski?) he'd been misquoted. The 'explosion' he heard happened at the same time the South Tower collapsed

AND

2) Patty Ormavich (sp?) the EMT who said she heard pops in the lobby of 6 WTC at the moment 2 WTC was collapsing and claimed shortly afterward to have seen a jetliner explode over NJ (something no one else reported seeing).
he case for there having really been bombs in the buidings is heavily strengthened by the simple fact that the firemen had all seen planes flying into the buildings. As a result the last thng on Earth they would have expected at that minute was that there were also bombs in the buildings.

So it is remarkable to find firemen under those circumstances saying things like:-

Stephen Gregory -- Assistant Commissioner (F.D.N.Y.) We both for whatever reason --

Fetzer did say one thing CT related that makes sense, the person wanting to change the subject is the one at the loosing end of the argument. I addressed two points to you

1) None of the firefighters who were in the WTC that morning said they still though there were explosives in the building after 9/11

2) Much of the FDNY top brass, whom you suspect of being "in on it" died and/or lost relatives/close friends.

As for your new "point" the towers had been the target of a previous bombing, only a few years or even months earlier various locations in Manila and Jakarta, the USS Cole, the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, and a synagogue in the Bronx had be the targets of bomb/arson attacks and a plot had been foiled against LAX. After the 2nd crash they knew it was a terrorist attack. So it was not in the least bit " remarkable" that some FFs would suspect explosives had been planted. That would be especially true for the ones in other buildings when 2 WTC came down.

triforcharity

23rd October 2009, 06:28 PM

Wasn't that in Backdraft? I haven't parked anywhere NEAR a fire hydrant since I saw that movie. Apparently they actually do it if necessary:

http://www.wusa9.com/news/columnist/blogs/uploaded_images/NJ-Gloucester-hose-through-car-759095.jpg

http://boldt.us/8557-2/no_parking_fire_hydrant_bmw_windows.jpg

I once had a side window shattered by a deer and I never did get all the glass out of the car. They break into microscopic slivers.

Yeah, they did it in BackDraft. It is absolutely true. I would not hesitate one hearbeat to break the windowns out of a car. Even if that car belonged to the POTUS. I wouldn't care one bit. My Brothers' lives depend on that water. I am not about to have them in a burning building for one second with no water.

triforcharity

23rd October 2009, 06:33 PM

But Matt those guys nust be absolute legends in the FDNY. The ones who heard explosions and saw flashes alone were 118 in number. Surely as a FDNY guy since you were a teenager you can tell us some interesting stories about them ? Or is that a secret? Or have you heard nothing more about them, the same as the rest of us ?

My name is not Matt. I have told you this before. Please stop addressing me by something that is not my name. Thanks.

Secondly, we have been through this before. I was not involved with FDNY since a teen. The age I used on her is not real. I will fully admit that.

Now, have you filed a FOIA request for their current status with FDNY?? All it takes is one simple email. Have you done this?? Not likely.

I know some of them. However, none of them believe there were bombs in that building. Maybe the moment they happened, but never after that.

Its called intelligence. Something that the TM is severly lacking.

ETA: BTW, 118 quote mined responses prove only one thing. Its easy to quote mine something.

triforcharity

23rd October 2009, 06:37 PM

he case for there having really been bombs in the buidings is heavily strengthened by the simple fact that the firemen had all seen planes flying into the buildings. As a result the last thng on Earth they would have expected at that minute was that there were also bombs in the buildings.

So it is remarkable to find firemen under those circumstances saying things like:-

Stephen Gregory -- Assistant Commissioner (F.D.N.Y.) We both for whatever reason -- again, I don't know how valid this is with everything that was going on at that particular point in time, but for some reason I thought that when I looked in the direction of the Trade Center before it came down, before No. 2 came down, that I saw low-level flashes. In my conversation with Lieutenant Evangelista, never mentioning this to him, he questioned me and asked me if I saw low-level flashes in front of the building, and I agreed with him because I thought -- at that time I didn't know what it was. I mean, it could have been as a result of the building collapsing, things exploding, but I saw a flash flash flash and then it looked like the building came down. ...
'' [It was at] the lower level of the building. You know like when they demolish a building, how when they blow up a building, when it falls down? That's what I thought I saw. ''

Highlighted the parts you need to pay attention to Bob.

cisco

23rd October 2009, 07:34 PM

I once had a side window shattered by a deer and I never did get all the glass out of the car. They break into microscopic slivers.Ummm, whaa? Safety glass is used in cars and it breaks into little squares/pebbles, not microscopic pieces or slivers of any size. That's been the law for decades if I'm not mistaken. In fact, this page (http://auto.howstuffworks.com/car-driving-safety/safety-regulatory-devices/question508.htm) says automakers have been using it since 1927.

triforcharity

23rd October 2009, 07:45 PM

Ummm, whaa? Safety glass is used in cars and it breaks into little squares/pebbles, not microscopic pieces or slivers of any size. That's been the law for decades if I'm not mistaken. In fact, this page (http://auto.howstuffworks.com/car-driving-safety/safety-regulatory-devices/question508.htm) says automakers have been using it since 1927.

Um, somthing tells me you don't understand why it does that. It most certainly does exactly as he claims. I would rather put my fist through a plate glass window, than a safety window. Chances of actually getting cut are much lower, but the cuts are much bigger.

BTW, that is used for windshields. They were much stronger and would stop someone from flying through the windshield. Seatbelts were not in cars at that time.

BTW, that is LAMINATED glass, not TEMPERED glass. Difference between pasturized milk and 100% natural, right off the cow.

ETA: That article is somewhat misleading. It most certainly does produce sharp edges. Go to a junk yard, and rub some of it on your face, and tell me if its sharp or not.

cisco

23rd October 2009, 07:51 PM

Car glass does NOT break into shards. Period. I've broken many car windows and windshields in my lifetime. Every minor accident would be a potential deadly bloodbath.

sylvan8798

24th October 2009, 03:59 AM

Car glass does NOT break into shards. Period. I've broken many car windows and windshields in my lifetime. Every minor accident would be a potential deadly bloodbath.

That's very interesting. I've never been called a liar for saying my passenger window broke into tiny slivers.

BTW: that would be "she", trifor dear.

leftysergeant

24th October 2009, 07:08 AM

But Matt those guys nust be absolute legends in the FDNY. The ones who heard explosions and saw flashes alone were 118 in number. Surely as a FDNY guy since you were a teenager you can tell us some interesting stories about them ? Or is that a secret? Or have you heard nothing more about them, the same as the rest of us ?

Bill, I have fire fighting experience and experience with explosives from my military service.

I read the same reports on which that dithering idiot theologian based that line of crap.

The boy should just haul his sorry butt off to a monestary and stay there. He is obviously not fit to be a teacher of any sort because he cannot read.

NOTHING that he read and repeated is evidence of a bomb. None of it even sounds like it could have been a bomb, given the locations and times.

Where the hell do these theologians think they get the chops to counter what competant engineers and fire fighters tell them?

9/11 Chewy Defense

24th October 2009, 07:18 AM

If they're not firefighters, they have no reason to comment about the technique's of firefighting or that of fire science.

Sorry, but a firefighters job is to fight fires and save lives. Not be caught up in some politcal agenda by some warped views by insane people who think that they're "lying" or "covering-up" 9/11.

I might be a Volunteer Firefighter & all, but when idiots like the Truthers say this & that about firefighters, that's where they cross the line.

Firefighting is firefighters turf. If you don't understand it, it's best to leave it well alone. If you don't, you're asking for trouble by making trouble.

You got that Truthers?

leftysergeant

24th October 2009, 07:45 AM

2) Patty Ormavich (sp?) the EMT who said she heard pops in the lobby of 6 WTC at the moment 2 WTC was collapsing and claimed shortly afterward to have seen a jetliner explode over NJ (something no one else reported seeing).

That was an EMT, Patricia Ondrovic. There is the possibility that she did witness the only actual explosives being fired that day. As I recall, there were several million rounds of pistol ammo in that building. They do tend to cook off randomly, with great flash and report but little effect.

Meaning no disrespect, I do not give any great credence to what Ondrovic might relate to any jury or board of inquiry regarding the events proximal to the collapses of the towers. She clearly suffered, at the time the oral histories were taken, from some sort of PTSD.

She mentions running down the street with her turnout coat on fire.

I know from my own training that the first thing you do when you realize you are on fire is to drop and roll (unless, of course, you are standing on a bed of some sort of easily-ignited fuel) to put out the flames.

But Ondrovic ran like hell with a burning coat.

I'd say she kind of lost it.

Considering that she had just witnessed the most horrendous scene that a fire fighter could ever expect to see, I'll not hold that against her.

By all means, give her her pension and let her move away to some place safe.

And MacQueen should just go away and stop bothering fire fighters, if he cannot grasp the import of these things.

cisco

24th October 2009, 10:43 AM

That's very interesting. I've never been called a liar for saying my passenger window broke into tiny slivers.

BTW: that would be "she", trifor dear.
I did not say the word lie or liar. There are many other possibilities. I merely stated the fact that automobile glass does not break into shards.

http://www.autoglass1.com/ppg-prostars/auto-glass-faq.html

The side and rear windows are made of TEMPERED GLASS. As the name implies, the glass has been "tempered," put through a special process where it is heated, then rapidly cooled. This process makes the glass up to 10 times stronger than untempered glass of the same thickness.

Tempered glass does not shatter on impact. Rather, it disintegrates into glass pieces about the size of rock salt. There are no large, jagged pieces of glass to injure the driver or passengers.

sylvan8798

24th October 2009, 02:00 PM

I did not say the word lie or liar. There are many other possibilities. I merely stated the fact that automobile glass does not break into shards.

http://www.autoglass1.com/ppg-prostars/auto-glass-faq.html
The side and rear windows are made of TEMPERED GLASS. As the name implies, the glass has been "tempered," put through a special process where it is heated, then rapidly cooled. This process makes the glass up to 10 times stronger than untempered glass of the same thickness.

Tempered glass does not shatter on impact. Rather, it disintegrates into glass pieces about the size of rock salt. There are no large, jagged pieces of glass to injure the driver or passengers.

I'm wondering what those possibilities would be. About a year before I hit the deer one of my coworkers at the time was broadsided. The collision broke the driver's side window, and she ended up with a lot of lacerations and glass embedded in her face and neck. Perhaps they don't consider that "injury" but it looked pretty nasty and she needed surgery to remove some of it.

In my case, no there were no "large jagged pieces" but there sure as hell were a lot of tiny ones, which I was still finding under the seats 3 years later when I traded in the car. Perhaps you took offense to my use of the word "shattered", since they use "disintegrated" in the link? If so, I stand corrected. The window didn't "shatter" it "disintegrated" into teeny tiny pieces, many of which were still quite sharp. Better now?

Lenbrazil

24th October 2009, 02:18 PM

That was an EMT, Patricia Ondrovic. There is the possibility that she did witness the only actual explosives being fired that day. As I recall, there were several million rounds of pistol ammo in that building. They do tend to cook off randomly, with great flash and report but little effect.

Except I don't think the building had caught fire yet.Also it does fit with her Killtown interview in which she said the pops/flashes were coming from the lobby ceiling. A better explanation (IMO) is short circcuts, either that or she imagined it like the exploding plane.

Meaning no disrespect, I do not give any great credence to what Ondrovic might relate to any jury or board of inquiry regarding the events proximal to the collapses of the towers. She clearly suffered, at the time the oral histories were taken, from some sort of PTSD.

Agreed

Lenbrazil

24th October 2009, 02:20 PM

I'm wondering what those possibilities would be. About a year before I hit the deer one of my coworkers at the time was broadsided. The collision broke the driver's side window, and she ended up with a lot of lacerations and glass embedded in her face and neck. Perhaps they don't consider that "injury" but it looked pretty nasty and she needed surgery to remove some of it.

In my case, no there were no "large jagged pieces" but there sure as hell were a lot of tiny ones, which I was still finding under the seats 3 years later when I traded in the car. Perhaps you took offense to my use of the word "shattered", since they use "disintegrated" in the link? If so, I stand corrected. The window didn't "shatter" it "disintegrated" into teeny tiny pieces, many of which were still quite sharp. Better now?

Perhaps a mod should split off a new thread on the fascinating subject of how car windows break. :):D

triforcharity

24th October 2009, 02:45 PM

I did not say the word lie or liar. There are many other possibilities. I merely stated the fact that automobile glass does not break into shards.

http://www.autoglass1.com/ppg-prostars/auto-glass-faq.html

I think you misunderstand the word shard. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/shard

Anyway, shard might be a bad word to use either way. The article that you originally refered to, was misleading, as I pointed out before.

It doesn't really matter either way though. Broken glass, no matter what type, is dangerous.

cisco

24th October 2009, 02:51 PM

I'm wondering what those possibilities would be.
-You're misremembering
-You were driving a car produced in a country without regulations (old Soviet Bloc, maybe?)
-You were driving a car that was many decades old (we're talkin' Model T with original glass)

Auto glass simply does not shatter the way some glass in your kitchen might. The term they used in the article - "rock salt" - is a pretty good descriptor. You can hold a handful of it more or less carelessly-- something you would not dare with the remnants of a broken glass bowl.

cisco

24th October 2009, 02:54 PM

I think you misunderstand the word shard. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/shard

Anyway, shard might be a bad word to use either way. The article that you originally refered to, was misleading, as I pointed out before.

It doesn't really matter either way though. Broken glass, no matter what type, is dangerous.
She has said both "microscopic slivers" and "tiny slivers". Automobile glass breaks into neither.

triforcharity

24th October 2009, 03:08 PM

Cisco,

I understand where you are coming from, and I know (Well, I suspect you are on our side) but with all due respect, you're wrong. I have seen more broken vehicle windows in my lifetime than I have hair on my head. They do in fact break into very tiny slivers and shards. Very often, that will be what causes the injuries.

Like I said, I mean no disrespect. But, its just a wrong conclusion.

Here are some links.

http://www.glassonweb.com/articles/article/228/

Here is from the Firehouse Forums, a great source for info on firefighting issues and techniques.

Now, why would they have a complete thread on how to break the glass in vehicles safely, if there was no risk of injury to a patient??

http://forums.firehouse.com/archive/index.php/t-19655.html

cisco

24th October 2009, 04:03 PM

What is your side? Are you a member of the sharp glass delegation? I've been sitting next to a car window when it broke. I've broken many on my own, and witnessed many broken. I've cleaned up the mess and held the glass in my hands many times. I would not touch the glass shards left on my kitchen floor after I broke a glass bowl last week. Too dangerous. The concern is just not there with auto glass. Yes, it can cut you, but so can gravel (or salt, for that matter) and all sorts of other not-generally-considered-sharp materials under the right circumstances. No one would call those things sharp or refer to the individual pieces as slivers.

Edit: It can cut you because it is exceedingly hard, and breaking it requires a lot of force (and often velocity); not because it's sharp.

A W Smith

24th October 2009, 07:24 PM

two different types of glass in automobiles. tempered side glass which breaks into little cubes of glass like rock salt. and laminated windshields which are not tempered which do break into shards but are held together by the layer between them. in the old days. when windshields were hend in place by a rubber gasket in the pinchweld of the auto body. these windshields would form "the collar of death" for unrestrained front seat passengers. not so much from being thrown through it. but from a passenger falling back into the vehicle and having a collar of glass surround their neck and sever their arteries. I remember reading about this in Ralph Naders old book. unsafe at any speed. today windshields are held in place by an adhesive on TOP of the pinchweld. The theory being that an occupant hitting the windshield is more likely to pop the windshield off the car body rather than go through it.

Scott Sommers

24th October 2009, 08:19 PM

But Matt those guys nust be absolute legends in the FDNY. The ones who heard explosions and saw flashes alone were 118 in number. Surely as a FDNY guy since you were a teenager you can tell us some interesting stories about them ? Or is that a secret? Or have you heard nothing more about them, the same as the rest of us ?

It's interesting that there's so many of them. And how many have gone on to join 911 Truth organizations? Or sign your petitions? None you say? Not even one? Wow...either they sure are scared of that Barrack Obama Democratic Administration or maybe, because they're firefighters, they have a different understanding of what went on that day.

Couldn't be the last one, though. That would mean someone knows more than you.

Redtail

24th October 2009, 08:50 PM

So... Members of the FDNY saw know there were bombs but won't admit it because they are afraid to lose their jobs?

Even though several of them could come out and say they saw actual bombs in the buildings and the tabloid circut alone would most likely pay several years salary for the story?

Hell, if they provide proof of CD charges the money from interviews plus the law suits plus the book deals would ensure their great grandkids would get into Harvard with a D+ avg....

dropzone

24th October 2009, 08:58 PM

An aside that may derail the hijack as everybody else gangs up on my friend, whom I haven't seen in 12 years:

Had a friend who was a volunteer firefighter. One day someone from his company tried to buy McDonalds for the gang, but the cashier wouldn't accept a $50 bill.

Two weeks later the McDonalds suffered a chimney fire.

When the department arrived they felt a need to ventilate the building by breaking all of the windows.

I offer this as something that my friend, triforcharity* would NEVER do. You, I am sure, understand that heroism does not always require running into a burning building.

* - Dude, you are as close to a hero as I currently have. OTOH, I also have the sad example of my friend from the story who, when pushing yet another friend from The Brink, opened his trunk and showed it was full of empty pints of blackberry brandy. FTR, my other friend used this as the nudge she needed. Heroism and sacrifice (as best I know he died of his alcoholism) takes many forms.

triforcharity

24th October 2009, 08:59 PM

But yet, the people who moved out of NYC, that left NYC without their pensions, (Myself included) ummmm.....What's keeping us silent

triforcharity

24th October 2009, 09:05 PM

An aside that may derail the hijack as everybody else gangs up on my friend, whom I haven't seen in 12 years:

Had a friend who was a volunteer firefighter. One day someone from his company tried to buy McDonalds for the gang, but the cashier wouldn't accept a $50 bill.

Two weeks later the McDonalds suffered a chimney fire.

When the department arrived they felt a need to ventilate the building by breaking all of the windows.

I offer this as something that my friend, triforcharity* would NEVER do. You, I am sure, understand that heroism does not always require running into a burning building.

* - Dude, you are as close to a hero as I currently have. OTOH, I also have the sad example of my friend from the story who, when pushing yet another friend from The Brink, opened his trunk and showed it was full of empty pints of blackberry . FTR, she used this as the nudge she needed. Heroism and sacrifice (as best I know he died of his alcoholism) takes many forms.

DZ,

Thanks for the compliment, but I am no hero. As I have said before, I did work with 343 of them though.

BTW, we would NEVER do that. Well, not officially.

dropzone

24th October 2009, 09:06 PM

You are silent?

dropzone

24th October 2009, 09:09 PM

And compared with me, and an awfully large percentage of the population, you really are heroic. The rest of us run from danger, like good Homo sapiens. Guys like you run toward it, like the blue canaries you are. :D

ElMondoHummus

25th October 2009, 12:26 AM

The boldest (and most asinine) claim being that the fire fighters saw bombs, but are afraid to tell anyone for fear of losing their jobs.

Asinine indeed. As Redtail pointed out back in June (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=4846975#post4846975), history has shown that people are willing to do an awful lot when they perceive real injustice. And I'd say that in the examples he shows, people were risking considerably more than just their jobs.

Scott Sommers

25th October 2009, 12:40 AM

Bill...Bill...come on and let us know. What do those firefighters say they saw on 911? What do they think those flashes were? Does even one of them think they were seeing explosives being detonated? But how silly of me. You know far more about what to expect in a fire than a FDNY firefighter. All they're good for is providing you with observations for the expert to interpret. Right?