The Words "Under God"

[NullPointerException]

The parent sueing the government to have the Pledge removed(or at least the words Under God) was on a radio talkshow for conservatives recently and a caller said that he was forcing his secular views on the nation by removing the phrase. The host of the show seemed to agree that if the words Under God are not in the pledge than the pledge becomes pro-atheist. The arguementation behind this was that atheism is a religion and that removing "Under God" would amount to support for atheism.

What the man tried to explain, and what I agree with, is that removing "Under God" makes it nuetral, not atheistic. The talk show host, and the caller, believed that it made the pledge pro atheist by simply not mentioning God. To which the guest pointed out, no the opposite would be, one nation, under no God, which isn't what he was proposing. What are your thoughts? Are the Christians just being idiots, or does removing Under God make the Government a de facto supporter of atheism.

[ArmchairPhysicist]

Including "Under God" implies that the government is acknowledging the existance of a deity, specifically the one deity who is designated by the capital "G".

Removing "Under God" removes all mention of the subject, which is neutral.

The xians are just being silly.

[sparklecat]

Well, that guy is being silly at least...

But then, I've found that it makes things much easier for people if they ignore rational arguments and simply assert that they are correct.

Not naming any names, of course ;)

[NullPointerException]

What amused me is that they are so perceptively challenged that they can't even fathom that removing something inappropriately placed isn't a contradiction its a retraction.

[canadarocks]

I understand that the original pledge did not have "Under God" in it to begin with and it was inserted in the 1950's before it was officially adopted. I think inserting the phrase is a pro-religious victory that needs to be rectified.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by NullPointerException
The parent sueing the government to have the Pledge removed(or at least the words Under God) was on a radio talkshow for conservatives recently and a caller said that he was forcing his secular views on the nation by removing the phrase.
I forgot, the United is no longer a Secular country...

I guess I never got the memo which said "Secular means 'No god(s)', sorry for the inconvenience". Maybe I was being arrogant for thinking the removal of the phrase is a blantant establishment of "no god(s)" mentality...

If we keep the phrase, it should be replaced with something more appropriate such as "Under Money". Or seeing as how Islam is the fastest growing religion in America (and the world), we should change it to "Under Allah".

[Jet Grind]

This is really silly, you have to wonder what world some people are living in when they make statements like that. Removing under God from the pledge neutralizes it, it doesn't promote atheism. Michael Newdow should've mentioned that the original pledge was completely secular, that would've gotten them going.

Originally posted by Yahweh
If we keep the phrase, it should be replaced with something more appropriate such as "Under Money". Or seeing as how Islam is the fastest growing religion in America (and the world), we should change it to "Under Allah".

We could change it to "under a oligarch of corporate giants, statesmen, and military adventurists" but that would be waaayyy too honest.

[sorgoth]

"One nation under Canada" :D

[sparklecat]

Nice one Sorgoth :D

Tar Valon, huh? Evil witch!

[espritch]

"One nation under Canada"

We're also beside you...or did you forget about Alaska? Soon we will have you surrounded and then we'll see who has the last laugh. Muhahaha! :a2:

[Skeptical Greg]

Just more idiots who think atheists worship the absence of a God..

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by espritch

We're also beside you...or did you forget about Alaska? Who?

[Flaherty]

While I agree that in a strict sense, "under God" should not be in the pledge and that "IGWT" should not be on the currency, I also think that there is little or no upside to trying to remove them but lots of downside.

There's no upside to removing them because these things are ceremonial and harmless. Trying to remove them energizes Christian fundamentalists, which will make it harder to fight them on fronts that really do matter, such as creationism in public schools.

I say let them have their meaningless and harmless symbols.

[A_Feeble_Mind]

Originally posted by espritch


We're also beside you...or did you forget about Alaska? Soon we will have you surrounded and then we'll see who has the last laugh. Muhahaha! :a2:

Heck, Detroit is NORTH of Canada (get out a map and check for yourselves).

[A_Feeble_Mind]

Originally posted by Flaherty
While I agree that in a strict sense, "under God" should not be in the pledge and that "IGWT" should not be on the currency, I also think that there is little or no upside to trying to remove them but lots of downside.

There's no upside to removing them because these things are ceremonial and harmless. Trying to remove them energizes Christian fundamentalists, which will make it harder to fight them on fronts that really do matter, such as creationism in public schools.

I say let them have their meaningless and harmless symbols.

Although, couldn't a counter-arguement be that by engaging them in a battle that is as trivial as this, it makes it harder for them to concentrate on those other battles, too? I say, don't give them an inch.

[NullPointerException]

I disagree with the wears them down comment. If anything forcing them to challenge all these secular attacks on their institutionalized religious sentiments at the same time is better than slowly. You just keep giving them time to regroup and gather forces. While we can just use lawyers, since we all know that one cannot be a good lawyer and a good christian, we are bound to win.

[LFTKBS]

Originally posted by Flaherty
I say let them have their meaningless and harmless symbols.

When we wearily accept the symbols, they will point to them and say, "See!? The U.S. is a Christian nation! Let's get the Ten Commandments in our schools and start teaching creationism!"

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by Diogenes
Just more idiots who think atheists worship the absence of a God..

I think they think more along the lines of atheists worship the idea of a purely mechanical universe where everything is 100% machine.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi
I think they think more along the lines of atheists worship the idea of a purely mechanical universe where everything is 100% machine.
Sure, you can easily find a few people are very very zealous in their atheism...

However, I dont think atheists "worship" a mechanical universe in the religious sense. (Semantics regarding the word "worship"...)

[c4ts]

Don't forget all the weird rituals that scientists practice, like "procedure" and the "scientific method!" What a bunch of hocus pocus.

[Zero]

A pro-atheist statement would be 'one nation under NO God'...

You can't give the loser pseudo-Christians an inch, or they'll take over your schoolboard and teach the Flintstones as an accurate depiction of natural history.

[DarkMagician]

I can see them trying to expel a basic math teacher for not praising Jebus for every equation. I mean, absense of declaration is not declaration of absence. I don't have to refer to my mom constantly or deny her very existance.

[KelvinG]

The Christian Intimidation Squad decided long ago that using logical arguments and reason wouldn't get them what they wanted so they now desperately try tatics of trickery like saying that not mentioning God in the pledge is "pro-atheist."

It's a ridiculous argument, but we must remember we are talking about a ridiculous group who try and force their beliefs on others through blatantly dishonest tactics like this one.

[pupdog]

And right about now, Fox is broadcasting a special about the conspiracy for the persecution of Christianity in America. Perhaps they will mention that the Founding Fathers put God's name on America's first money (yes, on wampum too). (By-the-bye, their promos for that special, juxtaposed with their "fair and balanced" self-promotions, were a whole lot funnier and more sarcastic than Al Franken's use of the phrase.)

It's important to put God's name on the most cherished idol in America.

[Iacchus]

So, why do you think it was put there in the first place? Do you think maybe the founding fathers understood something we don't know?

In fact if you read any of the literature from back then, I think God was an acceptable term and was used freely by most everyone.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Iacchus
So, why do you think it was put there in the first place? Do you think maybe the founding fathers understood something we don't know?

In fact if you read any of the literature from back then, I think God was an acceptable term and was used freely by most everyone. Why don't you open a history book, and correct this statement, ok?

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Zero
Why don't you open a history book, and correct this statement, ok? So can you tell me why they put it there in the first place? I've been told that they had strong religious convictions. Now does that sound about right? Or, is that just too God-awful to consider?

[Zero]

Originally posted by Iacchus
So can you tell me why they put it there in the first place? I've been told that they had strong religious convictions. Now does that sound about right? Or, is that just too God-awful to consider? The 'founding fathers' had nothing to do with the Pledge of Allegiance...again, why don't you try looking things up before forming an opinion? Also, why don't you look up the 1st Amendment?

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by Iacchus
So, why do you think it was put there in the first place? Do you think maybe the founding fathers understood something we don't know?
The phrases "Under God" and "In God We Trust" didnt appear until about the 1950's.

The reason they were added was during the time period (the Cold War), America had developed a heightened sense of fear and distrust of Communist Russia (which in history is known as the Red Scare). The phrases were added so as not to appear to promote "those Godless Commies".

The Founding Fathers had nothing to do with the Pledge of Allegiance, nothing to do with "In God We Trust", and nothing do with being "One Nation Under God".

Our Founding Fathers definitely understood something very important at the time: This country was to be a Secular Nation, not one under Theocratic Rule.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Yahweh

The phrases "Under God" and "In God We Trust" didnt appear until about the 1950's.

The reason they were added was during the time period (the Cold War), America had developed a heightened sense of fear and distrust of Communist Russia (which in history is known as the Red Scare). The phrases were added so as not to appear to promote "those Godless Commies".

The Founding Fathers had nothing to do with the Pledge of Allegiance, nothing to do with "In God We Trust", and nothing do with being "One Nation Under God". NO NO NO!!! If you don't make them do some research, they never learn how!!

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Zero
The 'founding fathers' had nothing to do with the Pledge of Allegiance...again, why don't you try looking things up before forming an opinion? Also, why don't you look up the 1st Amendment? Yes, the seperation of Church and State which, by no means implies the founding were not religious. In fact the 1st ammendment reads very much as if it were designed to protect those of (varying) religious beliefs.

While I doubt very much that they understood what atheism was back then?

[Zero]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Yes, the seperation of Church and State, which by no means implies the founding were not religious. In fact the 1st ammendment reads very much like it was designed to protect those of (varying) religious beliefs. And how are "those of (varying) religious beliefs" harmed by a lack of government endorsement of their faith?

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Zero
And how are "those of (varying) religious beliefs" harmed by a lack of government endorsement of their faith? First of all, you need to understand that this used to be a very religious country. Indeed, the very haven of "relgious freedom." This I think is what the founding fathers had in mind when they established this country.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by Zero
NO NO NO!!! If you don't make them do some research, they never learn how!!
You know, as much as I hate to do other's outside reading, its probably for the better.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Yahweh

Our Founding Fathers definitely understood something very important at the time: This country was to be a Secular Nation, not one under Theocratic Rule. What, by allowing the freedom of religion?

[Zero]

Originally posted by Iacchus
First of all, you need to understand that this to be a very religious country. Indeed, the very haven of "relgious freedom." This I think is what the founding fathers had in mind when they established this country. And religious freedom flourishes when the government stays out of the church business. There is a reason why we have a church on every corner, you know. This is a very religious country, because we don't have a government that promotes religion.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by Iacchus
What, by allowing the freedom of religion?
We allow Freedom of Religion, we dont establish an official National religion of any sort.

If anything, try to think of America as Religion-Neutral.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Zero
And religious freedom flourishes when the government stays out of the church business. There is a reason why we have a church on every corner, you know. This is a very religious country, because we don't have a government that promotes religion. Actually I really don't care for what the church on the corner has to say, neither do I really care for what you have to say.

And do you want to know what else? This country sucks anymore man.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Actually I really don't care for what the church on the corner has to say, neither do I really care for what you have to say.

And do you want to know what else? This country sucks anymore man. See? He needs to learn how to read and think!!

He doesn't care, he's gonna take his ball and go home now!!!:p

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Yahweh

We allow Freedom of Religion, we dont establish an official National religion of any sort.

If anything, try to think of America as Religion-Neutral. These things are just stupid relics. I don't see what anyone's getting all up in arms about?

Besides, if everyone subscribed to their own religion, how could they possibly think of America as Religion-Neutral? Unless of course everyone converted to Atheism? ;)

[Zero]

Originally posted by Iacchus
These things are just stupid relics. I don't see what anyone's getting all up in arms about? So removing them is no big deal, right? If they were 'just relics', then religious people wouldn't be defending them, would they? The energy of the defense, and the stated goal of the defense of religious symbols, is the exact reason why they need to be removed.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Zero
So removing them is no big deal, right? If they were 'just relics', then religious people wouldn't be defending them, would they? The energy of the defense, and the stated goal of the defense of religious symbols, is the exact reason why they need to be removed. Do you really think it's going to make one bit of difference whether they do or they don't?

If this country was still in its infancy then perhaps.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Do you really think it's going to make one bit of difference whether they do or they don't? Yep, so that stupid Christians can stop pointing to them as justification for pushing more of their mythology on Americans.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Zero
Yep, so that stupid Christians can stop pointing to them as justification for pushing more of their mythology on Americans. Man we've never had it so good. What the hell are you taking about?

[Zero]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Man we've never had it so good. What the hell are you taking about? What the hell are you talking about?!?

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Zero
What the hell are you talking about?!? I hate to tell you this, but the answer to this so-called Christianity we see around ourselves is not Atheism.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Iacchus
I hate to tell you this, but the answer to this so-called Christianity we see around ourselves is not Atheism. No, the answer is for Christians to STFU and appreciate the freedom they have, and allow other people to have the same freedom...and then STFU some more, to make up for their decades of being loud and anti-freedom.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Zero
No, the answer is for Christians to STFU and appreciate the freedom they have, and allow other people to have the same freedom...and then STFU some more, to make up for their decades of being loud and anti-freedom. Much ado about nothing, because neither side really has much to hold on to. It's sad really.

[Some Friggin Guy]

Actually, there is quite a bit to hold onto in this argument.

First, there is the seperation of church and state. That has been the basis of the freedom of religion, and it is patently impossible to have freedom of religion without freedom from religion.

I'll use my own experiences for an example. I live in the state of Tennessee and I am a Buddhist philosopher. I do not believe in any sort of deity, with the possible exception of Eric Clapton. The law in this state dictates that a person cannot hold an elected office without expressing a belief in a supreme being. That means that I am barred from running for city council or any other elected office becaue of my philosophy (what most would call a religion), so the freedom of religion doesn't exist here.

Second, the fundamentalist christians in areas around me have managed to get a foot in the door in terms of teaching mythology as a substitute for science. They're claim is that evolution is only a theory and should be taught alongside other "scientific theories". such as creationism.

Finally there is the fact that without a proper seperation of church and state, certain religions do not receive the protection they need from the masses. For example, in my town, I have heard callers on the radio use the idea that this is a "christian" nation as a reason to deport or imprison Muslims. While this doesn't seem like that big a deal, unless they can be set straight, things may escalate in my area. (For the record, the radio host actually AGREED with these callers!)

[Iacchus]

I'm beginning to think that freedom in this country anymore is just an illusion.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Iacchus
I'm beginning to think that freedom in this country anymore is just an illusion. Maybe you should look up 'freedom' in a dictionary, and then read up on religious freedom. America has more religious freedom than ever, and if we can keep the Christians at bay, America will continue to enjoy freedom.

[espritch]

I'm beginning to think that freedom in this country anymore is just an illusion.

No. But it certainly could become an illusion if we don't guard it jealously from those who want to take it away: the Christian fundamentalists, the Muslim fundamentalists, the right wing nut jobs, the left wing nut jobs. That’s why issues like “Under God” in the pledge and “In God we Trust” on the dollar matter. We are unlikely to loose our freedom in one fell swoop, but we could very well loose it piecemeal; a Patriot Act here, a blurring of Separation of Church and State their.

The founding fathers were not ignorant. They knew what atheism was - Thomas Pain was an avowed atheist. They also knew history. They knew how the combination of religion and government in Europe had led to centuries of religious wars, inquisitions, and witch hunts. The separation of Church and State is not just protection of religious freedom, it is protection of freedom. The enemies of freedom have always been religious in their zeal, certain that their great truth, whatever that truth might be, is the one true path, and ready and willing to use the government as an instrument to force their truth on everyone else. Letting the enemies of freedom have an inch, or an “In God we Trust”, is not acceptable.

P.S. You really should take some time to learn a little more about the history of this country. Based on your posts, I suspect your current knowledge of the subject leaves a lot to be desired.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by Zero
Maybe you should look up 'freedom' in a dictionary, and then read up on religious freedom. America has more religious freedom than ever, and if we can keep the Christians at bay, America will continue to enjoy freedom. I guess they don't scare me as much as they scare you. I just ignore them.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Iacchus
I guess they don't scare me as much as they scare you. I just ignore them. Then you obviously don't care about freedom. The ultimate goal of many Christians involved in political movements, in the eventual creation of a Christian state, where there is no freedom but what little is given by their narrow interpretation of the Bible.

[Iacchus]

Originally posted by espritch


No. But it certainly could become an illusion if we don't guard it jealously from those who want to take it away: the Christian fundamentalists, the Muslim fundamentalists, the right wing nut jobs, the left wing nut jobs. That’s why issues like “Under God” in the pledge and “In God we Trust” on the dollar matter. We are unlikely to loose our freedom in one fell swoop, but we could very well loose it piecemeal; a Patriot Act here, a blurring of Separation of Church and State their.

The founding fathers were not ignorant. They knew what atheism was - Thomas Pain was an avowed atheist. They also knew history. They knew how the combination of religion and government in Europe had led to centuries of religious wars, inquisitions, and witch hunts. The separation of Church and State is not just protection of religious freedom, it is protection of freedom. The enemies of freedom have always been religious in their zeal, certain that their great truth, whatever that truth might be, is the one true path, and ready and willing to use the government as an instrument to force their truth on everyone else. Letting the enemies of freedom have an inch, or an “In God we Trust”, is not acceptable.

P.S. You really should take some time to learn a little more about the history of this country. Based on your posts, I suspect your current knowledge of the subject leaves a lot to be desired. It's all about vested interest. And I can assure you that it's not just the Christians doing it in this country.

[Some Friggin Guy]

Originally posted by Iacchus
It's all about vested interest. And I can assure you that it's not just the Christians doing it in this country.

I'm not saying I don't believe you, Iacchus, but I'd like to know your views as to what other groups are working to undermine the freedoms of others in order to foster their agendas.

[epepke]

Originally posted by NullPointerException
Are the Christians just being idiots, or does removing Under God make the Government a de facto supporter of atheism.

The Christians who say things like this are just being idiots.