Fox New Channel's War on Atheism

[UnrepentantSinner]

I don't watch Fox News, but I had seen a promo for their "War on Christianity" segment they've been running this week. I like my local Fox affiliate and watch the 5:30pm news. Today they ran (I assume) part of the Fox News story.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,106455,00.html

The bias and the propaganda value was not surprising. First off the reporter gave the standard accomdationist arguments against seperation. This was in addition to the pro-accomodation talking heads. Just typical for the "We decide and report what we've decided" news channel.

What was more obvious (at least to me who knows better) was the effort to show how the Evil Atheist Conspiracy was responsible for waging war on America. Now here's where it gets so sneaky I have to give them credit. The primary gist of the story was about the Constitutional basis or lack thereof for seperation and the efforts in the courts of pro-seperationists. Yet they were showing all these atheist protestors waving signs throught the piece.

That's odd because Michael Newdow's case is the only major Church/State case to make it to the Supreme Court that I'm aware of. Every other (again, that I'm aware of) case going back to 1947 and Cantwell v. Connecticut up to the Doe vs. Santa Fe ISD case have been brought by theists who were in the minority (JWs, Mormons and Catholics for ex.) Even the infamous Madalyn Murray O'Hair case was actually consolidated in the a case by Unitarian Edward Schempp.

With this being the facts.. why is Fox deciding to report on all these atheists protesting?

The segment ended on my local channel with, again, atheist protesters, one carrying a "Atheism is American as Apple Pie" sign. I'm sure the fundies that Fox was catering to want ape poo poo when they saw that.

[corplinx]

War against atheists? You can take my atheism out of my cold dead hand.

http://penguinppc.org/~jeramy/PICS/kimber.jpg

[Nasarius]

Hey corplinx, why is there a Sun Microsystems logo on that picture? Just wondering.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Nasarius
Hey corplinx, why is there a Sun Microsystems logo on that picture? Just wondering.

That looks like a mouse pad.

[Checkmite]

Sun Microsystems is clearly considering fighting the MS monopoly via "other means"...

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by Nasarius
Hey corplinx, why is there a Sun Microsystems logo on that picture? Just wondering.

I think it's a very very subtle advocacy of Ra worship.

Wrong time of year for that Sun Boy!

[American]

For a room full of athiests, this place has no problem clearing out around christmas time. Where is everyone?

[rdaneel]

Out performing our Evil Atheist Conspiracy duties to convince the world that Jeezus didn't exist and the holidays are really about the Winter Solstice. Didn't you get the memo?

[EvilBiker]

Originally posted by American
For a room full of athiests, this place has no problem clearing out around christmas time. Where is everyone?
Silly Boy - somebody has to support all the strip clubs and seedy bars now that the god-botherers have retired to the sanctity of their churches.

[Dorian Gray]

Christmas is a secular holiday - unless you consider an enormous inflatable illuminated Homer Simpson Santa Claus in someone's yard 'religious'.

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=2276737&cat=12787&type=1&dept=4044&path=0%3A4044%3A124181%3A124133

[Hypocolius]

Originally posted by American
For a room full of athiests, this place has no problem clearing out around christmas time. Where is everyone?

I'm still at work, though most of my students aren't.... funny that considering they're all Muslims.

[svero]

Originally posted by American
For a room full of athiests, this place has no problem clearing out around christmas time. Where is everyone?

Probably all off celebrating the commercial holiday. You know... santa elves etc... Someone told me once it has something to do with religion but that was clearly a joke.

[shemp]

Even the infamous Madalyn Murray O'Hair case was actually consolidated in the a case by Unitarian Edward Schempp.

I just want to say that there is no relation.

[NullPointerException]

"Jesus loves little children"

I bet Jesus has deep pockets, who here wants to colloborate my story that he sexually harrased me? I mean we have the pencil with the above phrase on it(which is a clear piece of evidence) and the Roman Catholics can't deny that Jesus can transubstantiate.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by shemp
I just want to say that there is no relation.

We all know that you're a Thereveda Buddhist plus the spelling is all wrong unless you and the dococet transcriber shared a few shots of Everclear before signing in.

On a serious note. I looked back at the Faux News link and some of the other search engine results and it appears that this "special report" by Faux is nothing more than a transparent attempt to schill David Limbaugh's book The War against Christianity. If it wasn't clear from the obvious Bartonesque (sorry for no link, I'm referring to David Barton) tactics at inflaming the righteous anger of hard right religious conservatives this whole story is nothing more than the most blatent attempt at "we decide then report journalism" I have ever seen.

To be honest I'm surprised that more of our atheist right wingers aren't more outraged by this slander. "God forbid" anyone should object to the wholly objective Fox News Channel. :rolleyes:

[Zero]

Originally posted by Dorian Gray
Christmas is a secular holiday - unless you consider an enormous inflatable illuminated Homer Simpson Santa Claus in someone's yard 'religious'.

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=2276737&cat=12787&type=1&dept=4044&path=0%3A4044%3A124181%3A124133 Well, I'm pretty serious about putting it up, but I wouldn't call it 'religious'...;)

[Zero]

What I think is funny is that Christians, on a national holiday for their mythology, would drive past a million symbols of their faith on their way home; will drive past at least a couple of churches in this part of the country, and past yard after yard decorated for their holy day...all of that, get home, get online, and complain about how atheists are getting rid of Christmas.

[Upchurch]

Fox News' fair and balanced objectivity poster boy, Bill O'Reilly, has been complaining about the "secularists" and the "secular agenda" for months now. I suppose that it's not that surprising that Fox News is now following suit.

But it does make me ask a "chicken or the egg" question. Is BO'Re starting his campaign against the "secularists" because of Fox News or is Fox News starting a campaign against the "secularists" because of BO'Re?

When did the fringe Religious Right become mainstream Right, anyway?

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by Upchurch
But it does make me ask a "chicken or the egg" question. Is BO'Re starting his campaign against the "secularists" because of Fox News or is Fox News starting a campaign against the "secularists" because of BO'Re?

It's all about "Fair and balanced" shilling of David Limbaugh's book apparently.

When I do similar checks on CNN.com I don't find similar "supported advertisements" for any books from American's United. Fox has clearly chosen which banner it will march under - those of the accomodationists. It might as well call itself the 700 Club Jr. (or senior based on it's viewership).

Zero, I'm sure despite all this, the Rapture Ready fundy freaks are just looking for our government correcting previous accomodationist attitudes as an End Times Sign. You point out a salient aspect of this whole argument which is while individual churches and citizens practice their religion unmolested, the efforts to stop government prosteliztation is considered "persecution."

Feh...

[Zero]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner


Zero, I'm sure despite all this, the Rapture Ready fundy freaks are just looking for our government correcting previous accomodationist attitudes as an End Times Sign. You point out a salient aspect of this whole argument which is while individual churches and citizens practice their religion unmolested, the efforts to stop government prosteliztation is considered "persecution."

Feh...

It is a bit of a scam, isn't it? It certainly makes you wonder if people can be that misguided, or if it is intentional lying to convince the rubes that there is Christian persecution in America. Notice, if you will, that there is never a report on Christians being prevented from practicing their religion on their own property, or for wearing religious symbols on their own time. It is only when you try to express your religion in an official capacity that you run into trouble.

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by Dorian Gray
Christmas is a secular holiday - unless you consider an enormous inflatable illuminated Homer Simpson Santa Claus in someone's yard 'religious'.

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=2276737&cat=12787&type=1&dept=4044&path=0%3A4044%3A124181%3A124133

Well, near my house some terminally-tacky fundie has decided to celebrate Christmas by reconstruction of the 3 crosses of Golgotha...all charmingly done with brightly flashing Christmas lights! I just want to go up, smack the guy, and explain to him that he's supposed to be celebrating his Lord's birth....not his death!! Whadda maroon!

-z

[Zero]

Originally posted by rikzilla


Well, near my house some terminally-tacky fundie has decided to celebrate Christmas by reconstruction of the 3 crosses of Golgotha...all charmingly done with brightly flashing Christmas lights! I just want to go up, smack the guy, and explain to him that he's supposed to be celebrating his Lord's birth....not his death!! Whadda maroon!

-z If you do, he'll just set it up for Easter instead.:p

[Tmy]

Dont forget how the ACLU is the most dangerous organization in the country. You know they are tryingto stamp out religion.

I like the Fox story about the ACLU having Santa banned from a Kansas School. How awful!!! What they forgot to mention was that this particular "Santa" they wanted ousted was really a Pastor who would come into a public school and bascially direct the kids to christianity.

[heath]

Originally posted by NullPointerException
"Jesus loves little children"


but he couldn't eat a whole one.


Ba dum dum - cha

[pupdog]

...near my house some terminally-tacky fundie has decided to celebrate Christmas by reconstruction of the 3 crosses of Golgotha..

Sneak over at night and hang an inflatable Santa on each one.

[ktesibios]

Originally posted by pupdog


Sneak over at night and hang an inflatable Santa on each one.

Yeah, but the nail holes would let all the air out. :wink8:

[jj]

Originally posted by American
For a room full of athiests, this place has no problem clearing out around christmas time. Where is everyone?

Just because THEY turned it into a fasting day doesn't keep us from having a feast or two.

Even if they did have a hard time figuring out what day was in fact the solstice. :rub:

[jj]

Originally posted by rikzilla


Well, near my house some terminally-tacky fundie has decided to celebrate Christmas by reconstruction of the 3 crosses of Golgotha...all charmingly done with brightly flashing Christmas lights! I just want to go up, smack the guy, and explain to him that he's supposed to be celebrating his Lord's birth....not his death!! Whadda maroon!

-z

Awp!

Oh, you got a digiCam?

You gotta show us.

You just gotta show us.

[jj]

Originally posted by ktesibios


Yeah, but the nail holes would let all the air out. :wink8:

I don't know where the URL is now, but there was this news report about a store display in Japan that featured both a cross and a Santa. The rest is left to your own imagination.

[pupdog]

A few years back the news reported how Christmas had become quite a popular holiday in Japan--and mentioned a manger scene populated by Disney characters.

A new inflatable Christmas figure for this year is the Cat In The Hat. I wonder if the fundies have identified him as Satan yet.

[UserGoogol]

Christmas is celebrated quite a bit in Japan, but a Disney manger scene sounds suspiciously like the fictional crucified Santa stories. (http://www.snopes.com/holidays/christmas/cross.asp)

[Malachi151]

I have an interesing question.

Would ANY secular organization be able to survive, and indeed continue to thrive, if they had been involved in all the things that Catholic Church has done?

Let's see, in the past 50 years they have been known to collaberate with the Nazis, help Nazi war criminals escape justice, raped thousands of children, been involved in major abuse of children and even adults at convents leading to death in some cases, have thwarted the efforts to bring people to justive, etc..

And yet, it was the Catholic Church who helped push the "under God" into the pledge and now it is atheists, which no American Atheist organization that I know of has been charged with any wrong doing ever, who get's the label of being the "bad guys".

I already understand the issue, so I'm not going to "ask why", but I think the irony is fitting....

[Zero]

Originally posted by Malachi151
I have an interesing question.

Would ANY secular organization be able to survive, and indeed continue to thrive, if they had been involved in all the things that Catholic Church has done?

Let's see, in the past 50 years they have been known to collaberate with the Nazis, help Nazi war criminals escape justice, raped thousands of children, been involved in major abuse of children and even adults at convents leading to death in some cases, have thwarted the efforts to bring people to justive, etc..

And yet, it was the Catholic Church who helped push the "under God" into the pledge and now it is atheists, which no American Atheist organization that I know of has been charged with any wrong doing ever, who get's the label of being the "bad guys".

I already understand the issue, so I'm not going to "ask why", but I think the irony is fitting.... Uh huh...somehow, even though all the politicians are religious, the Catholic Church harbors and hides pedophiles, the televangelists are con artists, the Bible Belt has the highest rates of divorce...it is somehow all the fault of the atheists.

[Luke T.]

I doubt there is a conspiracy on the part of religious people to install Jesus in our public venues as much as I doubt there is a conspiracy of atheists to remove Jesus from America. I think it is the work of busy-body individuals.

For example, on Christmas eve, Billy Graham's son, who is also taking up the evangelical torch, was on Hannity and Colmes. It started out nicely enough, but then Hannity asked him if Jesus was a liberal or conservative. Apparently, Colmes had claimed in his latest book that Jesus was a liberal. Hannity began a diatribe about welfare dependence and creating a nation of leeches and would Christ be that kind of liberal? And so on. Graham the Younger looked at Hannity with a deer in the headlights look and said, "That's politics" and looked at the floor. The interview ended there.

It was Hannity and Colmes who were guilty of politicizing religion, not the religuous man himself. And I believe that is where most of the trouble lays, despite the Pat Robertsons.

Keep it clear in your minds it is Fox that politicized the religious issue in the case of the opening post of this topic. They not only fan the flames, they start the fire.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Luke T.
I doubt there is a conspiracy on the part of religious people to install Jesus in our public venues as much as I doubt there is a conspiracy of atheists to remove Jesus from America. I think it is the work of busy-body individuals.

No offense, but that is a bunch of nonsense. Find me an atheist who is trying to "remove Jesus from America". The idea itself is silly. Some people respect the law and religious freedom, and some people want to violate the rights of others with their silly mythology. I say believe whatever fairy tale turns you on...just stop insisting that the government acknowledge it.

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by Zero
No offense, but that is a bunch of nonsense. Find me an atheist who is trying to "remove Jesus from America". The idea itself is silly. Some people respect the law and religious freedom, and some people want to violate the rights of others with their silly mythology. I say believe whatever fairy tale turns you on...just stop insisting that the government acknowledge it.

I think you misunderstood me. THe second half of my first sentence was "I doubt there is a conspiracy of atheists to remove Jesus from America."

[Zero]

Originally posted by Luke T.


I think you misunderstood me. THe second half of my first sentence was "I doubt there is a conspiracy of atheists to remove Jesus from America." LOL, sorry about that, my fault...:jedi:

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Luke T.
I doubt there is a conspiracy on the part of religious people to install Jesus in our public venues as much as I doubt there is a conspiracy of atheists to remove Jesus from America. I think it is the work of busy-body individuals.I'm not trying to fall on one side of this issue or the other, but one of my favorite Jahova's Witnesses stories is from the time a couple of them came to my door several years ago.

Among the usual "Watchtower" sales pitch, they hit me with something along the lines about, "how great will it be when God comes to Earth and rules the world." When I questioned them about what that meant, I realized that they were literally talking about God taking up residence in the White House and having a world-wide theocracy from Washington.

Granted, I think this particular pair of JW's lived on the far side of wacky land, even for JW's, but there are extrimist groups who would love to instigate a Christian/American version of the Taliban. That Graham Jr. learned something from his father's mistakes doesn't mean that the movement doesn't exist.

Of course, there are also groups that truly believe in Bigfoot, but that doesn't mean that they'll make a difference either.

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by Upchurch
That Graham Jr. learned something from his father's mistakes doesn't mean that the movement doesn't exist.


Yeah. I did mention Pat Robertson. There is no denying that some clergy are overly involved in politics. Reverend Jesse Jackson. Reverend Al Sharpton.

But I still believe most of the politicization of religion comes from people who just like to make noise, like Hannity and Colmes. The argument over whether Jesus was a Liberal or Conservative is as stupid as an argument over whether he was White or Brown, and has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with a world view.

I think the fear on the part of religious people is over morals. They believe morals are directly descendant from religion. By removing religous influences, you are begging for corruption. And it is easy to find evidence to confirm this belief.

The reasoning is simple. Theist:moral. A-theist:a-moral.

We all want to figure out What's Wrong With America Today. Is it the commies? The blacks? The godless heathens? Democrats? Republicans? Drugs? Flouride in the water? Aliens? Negative vibes?

It boils down to a feeling that things are beyond one's personal control and headed in a very bad direction. All things paranormal carry this doomsday undertone. So do many things political. Global warming. Immigrants. On and on.

It is time for America to start making a gratitude list. :D

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Luke T.
It boils down to a feeling that things are beyond one's personal control and headed in a very bad direction. All things paranormal carry this doomsday undertone. So do many things political. Global warming. Immigrants. On and on.Well put. The question is, how does one differentiate between actual problems and political scapegoats? In the US, at least, politics has become so polarized that it is near-impossible to neutral. No matter how hard you try to find the midpoint the spectrum of an issue, there will be someone who will accuse that point as being on one side or the other (generally on the opposite side from the accusor). How can you know if the accusor is right or wrong?

That's mostly a rhetorical question, I suppose, since any answer to the question is subject to the same relativization it's trying to remedy.
It is time for America to start making a gratitude list. :D That used to be what Thanksgiving was for. Maybe we should stop worrying about the true meaning of Christmas and start pushing for the true meaning of Thanksgiving*.


* Turkey and mashed potatos.

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by Upchurch
Well put. The question is, how does one differentiate between actual problems and political scapegoats? In the US, at least, politics has become so polarized that it is near-impossible to neutral. No matter how hard you try to find the midpoint the spectrum of an issue, there will be someone who will accuse that point as being on one side or the other (generally on the opposite side from the accusor). How can you know if the accusor is right or wrong?

I sometimes have to stop and ask myself if there is even really a problem, or was it manufactured out of thin air.

Are things really getting worse? I don't think so. I think things are better than they ever have been. But somebody can always throw up a photo of a dead kid in an attempt to negate me.

I don't know what that kind of argument is called, but I see the tactic all the time. For example, a government policy is brought up, and then they find the one guy who was hurt by it.

[CapelDodger]

from Luke T.:
I doubt there is a conspiracy on the part of religious people to install Jesus in our public venues ...
Perhaps not a true conspiracy, but a convergence of interests when this kind of matter comes up. I've observed the rise of the Religious Right from a distance and I don't myself doubt that there has been a conspiracy between politicos who want the votes and the religios that want prayers in schools and such. What intrigues me is that Reagan's election must have seemed like victory to the religios and yet the Constitution got in the way. Ultimately, no result except Clinton for two terms. Now they've got Bush and no Ten Commandments in the Courthouse. So where do they go from here? They've tried capturing local bodies such as school-boards but can't seem to hold onto them once voters are reminded of their existence. I've come across people arguing that the Declaration of Independence overrides the Constitution and I think that's a pointer to how things might go. Which is the States' Rights issue - which has never really been put to sleep. Bringing with it the possibility of a new Secession, separating the United Satanics (of New York, California etc.) from the Kingdom of God. That would be entertaining.

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by CapelDodger
from Luke T.:

Perhaps not a true conspiracy, but a convergence of interests when this kind of matter comes up. I've observed the rise of the Religious Right from a distance and I don't myself doubt that there has been a conspiracy between politicos who want the votes and the religios that want prayers in schools and such. What intrigues me is that Reagan's election must have seemed like victory to the religios and yet the Constitution got in the way. Ultimately, no result except Clinton for two terms. Now they've got Bush and no Ten Commandments in the Courthouse. So where do they go from here? They've tried capturing local bodies such as school-boards but can't seem to hold onto them once voters are reminded of their existence. I've come across people arguing that the Declaration of Independence overrides the Constitution and I think that's a pointer to how things might go. Which is the States' Rights issue - which has never really been put to sleep. Bringing with it the possibility of a new Secession, separating the United Satanics (of New York, California etc.) from the Kingdom of God. That would be entertaining.

I have never heard anyone claim the DOI overrides the Constitution. If they do, they are seriously out of touch with reality. And I, for one, am glad the States' Rights issue has never been put to sleep.

We are a nation of contradictions. The vast majority of Americans believe in a God of some kind, and yet our airwaves are filled with the likes of Baywatch and Jerry Springer. The porn and gambling industries are booming. We seem to thrive on guilt over the things we enjoy. If it feels good, it must be bad for you.

This is a balancing act. And sometimes the scale gets tipped one way or the other and we get a little crazy. Then things return to normal, but not quite the same as before. Then we forget what happened the last time, and go through it all over again. But we seem to improve with age in my opinion. So we are doing something right.

Our preachers get caught with their hands in the wrong pair of pants or in the cash box and we are shocked and outraged. Our celebrities commit crimes and we feel they should be forgiven and we buy their records in greater numbers. I can't figure it out. I guess the greatest crime you can commit in America is hypocrisy. And since we are all human, we are all hypocrites on some level. We know it.

To acknowledge the divine in one's heart is to acknowledge one's own weaknesses, and the scale between the divine and the human just seems to great to overcome. So we resign to our weaknesses, and a feeling of doom follows us everywhere. We have damned ourselves and we project that to dooming the whole world. And there are plenty of people out there ready and willing to exploit that.

I rebel against doomsayers of every kind. I do it because I believe I am worth something. I do it because I believe I am a good person.

[bignickel]

Originally posted by Luke T.

I think the fear on the part of religious people is over morals. They believe morals are directly descendant from religion. By removing religous influences, you are begging for corruption. And it is easy to find evidence to confirm this belief.

The reasoning is simple. Theist:moral. A-theist:a-moral.


It is here that I believe that the battle is to be fought.

The best thing to hit the in-your-face theist is: what does morality have to do with religion?

After they recover sufficiently from the effrontery that this represents, you can deal with their responses. Some will try to re-define your question with 'morality' vs 'the actions of so-called religious people' (probably involving 'one true scotsman'); don't let them. Some may even try to re-define the word 'religion' to include the word 'morality': don't let them. This may mean you'll have to walk out of the conversation if they persist in this, so don't feel any remorse in pointing out that that's what they're doing.

For extra points, hit them with "If the Bible didn't state that adultery was wrong, would it be wrong?" This will give you plenty of targets to smack around, no matter which way they answer.

[bignickel]

Originally posted by Luke T.


I sometimes have to stop and ask myself if there is even really a problem, or was it manufactured out of thin air.

Are things really getting worse? I don't think so. I think things are better than they ever have been. But somebody can always throw up a photo of a dead kid in an attempt to negate me.


This brings to mind a section of Neal Stephenson's "Quicksilver" where a protagonist likens a shipwreck at sea (Acts 1 thru 5) to humanity's progress thru the ages (Acts 5 to 1):
The human race has, actually, been in Act V for most of history and has recently accomplished the miraculous feat of assembling splintered planks afloat on a stormy sea into a sailing-ship and then, having climbed onboard it, building instruments with which to measure the word, and then finding a kind of regularity in those measurements.

But as for others:
Quicksilver, pg 78
"But they had, perversely, been living among people who were peering into the wrong end of the telescope, or something, and who had convinced themselves that the opposite was true- that the world had once been a splendid, orderly place - that men had made a reasonably trouble-free move from the Garden to the Athens of Aristotle... and that everything had been slowly, relentlessly falling apart ever since..."

[hgc]

Originally posted by Luke T.
I doubt there is a conspiracy on the part of religious people to install Jesus in our public venues as much as I doubt there is a conspiracy of atheists to remove Jesus from America. I think it is the work of busy-body individuals.

For example, on Christmas eve, Billy Graham's son, who is also taking up the evangelical torch, was on Hannity and Colmes. It started out nicely enough, but then Hannity asked him if Jesus was a liberal or conservative. Apparently, Colmes had claimed in his latest book that Jesus was a liberal. Hannity began a diatribe about welfare dependence and creating a nation of leeches and would Christ be that kind of liberal? And so on. Graham the Younger looked at Hannity with a deer in the headlights look and said, "That's politics" and looked at the floor. The interview ended there.

It was Hannity and Colmes who were guilty of politicizing religion, not the religuous man himself. And I believe that is where most of the trouble lays, despite the Pat Robertsons.

Keep it clear in your minds it is Fox that politicized the religious issue in the case of the opening post of this topic. They not only fan the flames, they start the fire. I applaud Franklin Graham for cutting Hannity and Colmes short on this question.

But, I think the most alarming example of politicalization of religion occurred in a year 2000 Republican presidential primary debate, when the question to the candidates was to name their favorite political philosopher, and candidate Bush answered Jesus Christ.

[Zero]

I think there is a certain idea among Christians that they are entirtled to special rights. Because they actually have had those special rights for so long, when people seek to equalize the situation, some Christians see it as persecution.

[Regnad Kcin]

Excellent posts from Luke T., bignickel, and others!