'Please don't sleep with Israelis'

[heath]

AN Israeli company has required thousands of Chinese workers to sign a contract promising not to have sex with Israelis or try to convert them, a police spokesman said today.



The spokesman said there was nothing illegal about the requirement and no investigation had been opened against the company.


From

http://news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,8249434%255E13762,00.html

Amazing.

[Zero]

Why? Are Israelis just too incredibly sexy, and once you have sex with an Israeli, you are unable to work without daydreaming about it?

[Upchurch]

I dated a Jewish girl in college (not exactly Israeli, but the closest American equivalent). It didn't hurt my productivity any, but then, I didn't try converting her to anything.

[Crossbow]

About the same thing was done to the Chinese who helped to build the western railroads in the late 1800s.

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Crossbow
About the same thing was done to the Chinese who helped to build the western railroads in the late 1800s. Really? I didn't know that at all.

Well, its certainly a good thing that we had that stipulation, otherwise Asia might have had an impact on American culture. Now excuse me. I have to catch Samuri Jack while I eat some leftover General Tso's chicken.

[demon]

>>>Israeli advocates of foreign workers - who come also from Thailand, the Philippines and Romania - say they are held by employers in nearly slave-like conditions, and their bosses frequently take their passports and refuse to pay them.>>>

Maybe Israel does qualify for the European Union after all.

[El Greco]

From the article:

According to the document, male workers cannot come into contact with Israeli women - including prostitutes -

Including prostitutes ??? This is insane. What are they supposed to do ? Masturbate ? Do one another ?

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by El Greco
From the article:



Including prostitutes ??? This is insane. What are they supposed to do ? Masturbate ? Do one another ?

What if it's a male prostitute?

Your honor, I thought she was a man.

[Skeptic]

A few points:

1). It is a SPECIFIC israeli COMPANY, not the israeli government, that has this requirement. This is no more official government policy than, say, Wal-Mart's policies are official US government policy.

2). This certainly isn't common practice. With all probability, the reason this item is "news" in the first place is precisely due to the "man-bites-dog" character.

3). FWIW, most israelis who heard of this story surely consider it bizzare, as well.

4). As the story shows, while some israeli companies abuse foreign workers, other israelis are their advocates and are against these abuses.

I am not claiming this didn't happen, of course, or is good thing--just that it is hardly some sort of volkish government policy, but instead, a bizzare action by a private corporation that's opposed by most israelies.

[Cleon]

First of all, I don't doubt Skeptic's comments that this isn't particularly common--or endorsed--within Israel.

That said, I think we'll see more of it. The rising non-Jewish population--Palestinian as well as East European, Indian, Chinese, etc.--is the subject of much discussion in Israel. Those who are most dead set on maintaining a Jewish majority feel threatened by changing demographics.

[a_unique_person]

There are numerous examples of racism by Israelis towards others. The whole "apartheid" system it is built on is unsustainable.

[Zero]

I wonder...would things go better for the Israelis if they would be a little more "friendly" with outside folks?

[American]

Not a problem.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Cleon
First of all, I don't doubt Skeptic's comments that this isn't particularly common--or endorsed--within Israel.

That said, I think we'll see more of it. The rising non-Jewish population--Palestinian as well as East European, Indian, Chinese, etc.--is the subject of much discussion in Israel. Those who are most dead set on maintaining a Jewish majority feel threatened by changing demographics.
Something like this happened in Fiji. The Fijians were happy with democracy until the Indian population grew to a point where they took a majority position in the government...The result was a coup by army factions to restore indigenous fijian rule. There is a very real possibility of Israel going the same way if the majority are other than Jewish.... How does a junta with nuclear weapons in the middle east sound?

[Cleon]

Originally posted by The Fool

How does a junta with nuclear weapons in the middle east sound?

Uh, there's already one dictator who definitely has nuclear weapons...Musharraf.

[Cleopatra]

Correct me if I am wrong but marriages between foreign workers and natives are not that easy in the States. Is that right?

.

[Ed]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Correct me if I am wrong but marriages between foreign workers and natives are not that easy in the States. Is that right?

.

No. No restrictions on marrying a furriner that I am aware of. Why would there be? I am sure that some people might think that government would know best here as they do with toilet bowls. What about where you are? You might be thinking of some cases where GI's married Iraqis.

[Cleon]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
Correct me if I am wrong but marriages between foreign workers and natives are not that easy in the States. Is that right?

.

Well, first of all, we're not talking about marriage, we're just talking about sex. And the last time I checked, you can do the bedspring ballet with whoever you like, foreigner or not. (And I will guarantee that any company that had a policy that its foreign workers couldn't bang Americans wouldn't be able to keep it secret--nor keep any customers--for very long.)

Second, no, you can marry whoever you like as well. There's a little bit of a song and dance you have to go through with the INS to get your spouse permanent residency, but it's more bureacratic BS and filling out forms than any actual restrictions.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Cleon
[B]

Well, first of all, we're not talking about marriage, we're just talking about sex.

Yeap but when you have sex you might have babies and according to the Israeli legislation the children of Jewish mothers are Jews and Israeli citizens. The problem is with the non-Jewish partners.

That term of those contracts is definetely discriminative as well as a couple of other Laws in Israel that should be abolished. Israel is a new country but if it wants to have a future it needs a Constitution that will define the nature of the State something that in Israel is still pending.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
There are numerous examples of racism by Israelis towards others. The whole "apartheid" system it is built on is unsustainable.

You know, I can just build up my signature to its limit by your sweeping as you call it "racist" comments about all the Israelis. The least you could is back it up with facts, or will that just get in the way of you making a point?

[Ralph]

There are numerous examples of racism by white Australians
towards others. The whole "apartheid" system it is based on is unsustainable.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Ralph
There are numerous examples of racism by white Australians
towards others. The whole "apartheid" system it is based on is unsustainable.
I take your point in your changing one word of A_U_P's statement but unfortunately, despite Australians being blatantly racist in many ways there are not areas of Australia where only certain ethnic groups can settle, there are not variations in citizenship rights depending on ethnicity...
The biggest problem I see for Israels future is what will happen, if current birth trends continue, when Jews are not in the majority. I fear that even more "racial purity" legistaltion will be introduced so that jews retain control of the country that they see as "belonging" to jews...This will turn them into an apartheid state...US support would be a lot harder to obtain for a country if it finally sheds all pretence of equality among citizens.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by The Fool

I take your point in your changing one word of A_U_P's statement but unfortunately, despite Australians being blatantly racist in many ways there are not areas of Australia where only certain ethnic groups can settle, there are not variations in citizenship rights depending on ethnicity...
The biggest problem I see for Israels future is what will happen, if current birth trends continue, when Jews are not in the majority. I fear that even more "racial purity" legistaltion will be introduced so that jews retain control of the country that they see as "belonging" to jews...This will turn them into an apartheid state...US support would be a lot harder to obtain for a country if it finally sheds all pretence of equality among citizens.


You can't see the real problem I am afraid. Jews didn't establish a state;the established a Jewish state and the reason why the established a jewish state was to bring an end to the procecutions they have been experiencing for 2000 years, procecutions that climaxed to a unique in History genocide.
The security of the jewish people was the prime goal of the establishment of the state of Israel.

If Arabs are able to see and respect that and they are ready to agree to resign from the right of return I don't see what is your problem with that.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Grammatron


You know, I can just build up my signature to its limit by your sweeping as you call it "racist" comments about all the Israelis. The least you could is back it up with facts, or will that just get in the way of you making a point?
well, here's one example.


Israeli school textbooks as well as children’s storybooks, according to recent academic studies and surveys, portray Palestinians and Arabs as “murderers,” “rioters,” “suspicious,” and generally backward and unproductive. Direct delegitimization and negative stereotyping of Palestinians and Arabs are the rule rather than the exception in Israeli schoolbooks.

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0999/9909019.html

There are numerous examples of racism by Isrealis as there are numerous examples of racism by Palestinians and others towards Israelis... The problem is not improved by the large numbers of people who want to simply close thier eyes to it or define it out of existence....

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by The Fool

well, here's one example.


Israeli school textbooks as well as children’s storybooks, according to recent academic studies and surveys, portray Palestinians and Arabs as “murderers,” “rioters,” “suspicious,” and generally backward and unproductive. Direct delegitimization and negative stereotyping of Palestinians and Arabs are the rule rather than the exception in Israeli schoolbooks.

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0999/9909019.html

There are numerous examples of racism by Isrealis as there are numerous examples of racism by Palestinians and others towards Israelis... The problem is not improved by the large numbers of people who want to simply close thier eyes to it or define it out of existence....


You don't have a case with the example you brought. Greek school books depict the Turks in the worse possible way and so the Turkish school books do for the Greeks. And?

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Cleopatra



You can't see the real problem I am afraid. Jews didn't establish a state;the established a Jewish state and the reason why the established a jewish state was to bring an end to the procecutions they have been experiencing for 2000 years, procecutions that climaxed to a unique in History genocide.
The security of the jewish people was the prime goal of the establishment of the state of Israel.

If Arabs are able to see and respect that and they are ready to agree to resign from the right of return I don't see what is your problem with that.
so is it your position that Israel should make citizenship and voting rights impossible for all but one religion? If thats the case then silly examples like the one that started this thread are going to have to become the norm...how else are you going to maintain the racial purity of Israel?

[NullPointerException]

Reminds me of an old saturday night live joke about Japanese text books and the rape of nanking being refered to as "The date with nanking that went bad". It was funny and I laughed, but only because of the prevelance of date rape commercial at the time which made it topical. On the other hand, I have seen accounts of the incident and can't believe anyone would have the gall to try and marginalize it. Now one has to ask, why would you negotiate with someone willing to permit such tragedies as if they understood your position? Obviously there needs to be a revaluation of the actual goals of these two parties... given this xenophobia I would say it's to have a Jewish state free of other ethnicities for the Israelis.

[Cleopatra]

Originally posted by The Fool

so is it your position that Israel should make citizenship and voting rights impossible for all but one religion? If thats the case then silly examples like the one that started this thread are going to have to become the norm...how else are you going to maintain the racial purity of Israel?


Racial purity is not the right word. Since the population of the state of Israel is consisted of various... races.

The problem was that their religion was the reason why Jews were procecuted. Their religion is still the reason why Jews have to face hatred ( re: burning of synagogues in Europe), so the point is that there must be a place for people who have embraced Judaism to feel safe.

Do you believe that the Jews would be safe in a state that the Arabs would be the majority? They struggle for their safety now in areas that Arabs are not the majority, how can you persuade Israelis that they will be safe if they don't have the control of their state?

I do not like the situation this is why I describe it as a problem. As every rational person does, I wish that the reasons they made the establishment of a Jewish state vital didn't exist. But they existed and not only that, they prevail. Apart from the violence,Jews in Europe have to face discriminations even in academic environments just because they are Jews.

I am sorry but humanity still makes Jews believe that they need a place to be safe and what makes me mad is that those who procecute Jews in universities etc are those who claim that they are anti-Zionists. By doing so they pay the best service to reviving Zionism.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by The Fool

well, here's one example.


Israeli school textbooks as well as children’s storybooks, according to recent academic studies and surveys, portray Palestinians and Arabs as “murderers,” “rioters,” “suspicious,” and generally backward and unproductive. Direct delegitimization and negative stereotyping of Palestinians and Arabs are the rule rather than the exception in Israeli schoolbooks.

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0999/9909019.html

There are numerous examples of racism by Isrealis as there are numerous examples of racism by Palestinians and others towards Israelis... The problem is not improved by the large numbers of people who want to simply close thier eyes to it or define it out of existence....

No, it's not an example. An example would be to actually include excerpts from those books to show how they arrive at such conclusion.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Cleopatra



Racial purity is not the right word. Since the population of the state of Israel is consisted of various... races.

Fair enough...religious purity then...It really doesn't matter what type of categorisation you use.



The problem was that their religion was the reason why Jews were procecuted. Their religion is still the reason why Jews have to face hatred ( re: burning of synagogues in Europe), so the point is that there must be a place for people who have embraced Judaism to feel safe.

And I agree that jews have and are persecuted but what I am interested in is if you think the US would be able to continue to support a state where all are not created equal? Where there is no freedom of religious beliefs...The type of israeli state you talk of is strictly one religion only...I assume if you wake up one day with a burning desire to become a muslim that would be the end of your citizenship in your version of israel?


Do you believe that the Jews would be safe in a state that the Arabs would be the majority? They struggle for their safety now in areas that Arabs are not the majority, how can you persuade Israelis that they will be safe if they don't have the control of their state?

I can't persuade any religious group they would be safe, jews, Muslims, Christians...could you guarantee the safety of Muslims in an apartheid style Israel?

I am sorry but humanity still makes Jews believe that they need a place to be safe

Just as the dutch colonists believed they needed a place to be safe in South Africa. This is My Main fear for Israel, not that they will be over-run from the outside but that they will rot from within by setting up thier own version of an apartheid totalitarian junta because they see this as the only way jews can retain absolute control.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Grammatron


No, it's not an example. An example would be to actually include excerpts from those books to show how they arrive at such conclusion.

from the same link...

Cohen also researched 1,700 Israeli children's books published after 1967. He found that 520 of the books contained humiliating, negative descriptions of Palestinians. He also took pains to break down the descriptions:

Sixty six percent of the 520 books refer to Arabs as violent; 52 percent as evil; 37 percent as liars; 31 percent as greedy; 28 percent as two-faced; 27 percent as traitors, etc.

Cohen points out that the authors of these children's books effectively instill hatred toward Arabs by means of stripping them of their human nature and classifying them in another category. In a sampling of 86 books, Cohen counted the following descriptions used to dehumanize Arabs: Murderer was used 21 times; snake, 6 times; dirty, 9 times; vicious animal, 17 times; bloodthirsty, 21 times; warmonger, 17 times; killer, 13 times; believer in myths, 9 times; and a camel's hump, 2 times.


I've got no doubt that palestinian literature contains similar garbage...

[Zero]

Originally posted by Cleopatra



You don't have a case with the example you brought. Greek school books depict the Turks in the worse possible way and so the Turkish school books do for the Greeks. And? Which logical fallacy is this one?

Why is this the standard defense of Israel? That until every other country is perfect, no one can criticize Israel? If the Greeks are racist, then it is ok for Israel to be racist. If there are human rights violations in Syria, then Israel cannot be accused of human rights violations.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Cleopatra



You don't have a case with the example you brought. Greek school books depict the Turks in the worse possible way and so the Turkish school books do for the Greeks. And?


And?????
ok...."And" the greek and turkish schoolbooks you refer to are also examples of racism.


Are you denying that the example I gave is an example of racism?? Or are you simply suggesting that racism is not limited to Israelis (which I agree with) Grammatron suggested examples of Israeli racism should be supplied.....well Israelis are no different from any one else, there are plenty of bigots and Racists to go around, Israel has thier fair share....

[Nasarius]

Originally posted by Zero
Which logical fallacy is this one?

Interesting question. I left my copy of "A Demon-Haunted World" back at university, so I can't check Sagan's list...I can't quite categorize it. It is used very often, such as when people resort to bashing Clinton in "defense" of Bush. Perhaps it isn't quite a logical fallacy, but rather a diversionary tactic.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Nasarius


Interesting question. I left my copy of "A Demon-Haunted World" back at university, so I can't check Sagan's list...I can't quite categorize it. It is used very often, such as when people resort to bashing Clinton in "defense" of Bush. Perhaps it isn't quite a logical fallacy, but rather a diversionary tactic. Well, I guess it is part diversion, and part tu quoque("you too").

[Zero]

A quick note about sleeping with Israelis...Natalie Portman was born in Israel, and she's kinda cute...:p

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Zero
A quick note about sleeping with Israelis...Natalie Portman was born in Israel, and she's kinda cute...:p

Take it from me, you never go back. The crazy broad had me in chains and lox.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Jocko


Take it from me, you never go back. The crazy broad had me in chains and lox.

Sorry, couldn't resist. You anti-Semite!!!

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Zero
You anti-Semite!!!

No, no, no. Haven't you been keeping up? It's only racist if you say something about Arabs. Anti-semitism's cool.

But let me tell ya something... the cops won't believe you when you try to tell 'em she told you she was 18. I got busted for contributing to the delinquency of a menorah that way.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Jocko


No, no, no. Haven't you been keeping up? It's only racist if you say something about Arabs. Anti-semitism's cool.

But let me tell ya something... the cops won't believe you when you try to tell 'em she told you she was 18. I got busted for contributing to the delinquency of a menorah that way.
Tell me Jocko...your definitions of what is racist has me confused. Is it actually possible to make a bigoted or racist statement about Arabs? would "the Arabs are bloodthirsty terrorists" qualify?

You may think this is all a joke son but your sort of head in the sand ignorance is one of the main reason that the tragedy of the middle east is ongoing.....wake up.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Jocko


No, no, no. Haven't you been keeping up? It's only racist if you say something about Arabs. Anti-semitism's cool.

Really? What planet do you live on?

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Zero
Really? What planet do you live on?
don't get them started...Jocko and Troll, the Laurel and Hardy of middle east issues. Please don't confuse them with complex questions.

[Zero]

Originally posted by The Fool

don't get them started...Jocko and Troll, the Laurel and Hardy of middle east issues. Please don't confuse them with complex questions. But it is so easy!!!

[Jocko]

Originally posted by The Fool

Tell me Jocko...your definitions of what is racist has me confused. Is it actually possible to make a bigoted or racist statement about Arabs? would "the Arabs are bloodthirsty terrorists" qualify?

You may think this is all a joke son but your sort of head in the sand ignorance is one of the main reason that the tragedy of the middle east is ongoing.....wake up.

Yawn. If I'm not awake, it's because I keep hearing the same old boring tune. You're enough to put anyone to sleep. Address AUP's comments, as I've asked, and I'll explain myself. until then, you two-faced contrarian, get bent.

I'd like it on the record that the Fool has declared that bad puns are one of the main reasons the middle east crisis continues.

Get a grip, and when you're done with that, get a sense of humor. I recommend the Paul Hogan portfolio, he's a credit to your nation.

[Jocko]

I've thought about it a bit, and Fool, I'm calling you out. I'm sick of your hot air and sanctimonious BS.

Report any post I've ever made to the moderators on the grounds of racism. Please. Do it now. In fact, I insist. You've accused me and many others of racist comments - so put your balls where your mouth is. Metaphorically.

Or are the moderators part of the vast conspiracy as well?

[Troll]

Originally posted by Jocko
I've thought about it a bit, and Fool, I'm calling you out. I'm sick of your hot air and sanctimonious BS.

Report any post I've ever made to the moderators on the grounds of racism. Please. Do it now. In fact, I insist. You've accused me and many others of racist comments - so put your balls where your mouth is. Metaphorically.

Or are the moderators part of the vast conspiracy as well?

I'm a gambling man. Fool can use the help, so I offer my posts for scrutiny as well. It gives him more to pick from and I'm all about fairness and chances.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Jocko
I've thought about it a bit, and Fool, I'm calling you out. I'm sick of your hot air and sanctimonious BS.

Report any post I've ever made to the moderators on the grounds of racism. Please. Do it now. In fact, I insist. You've accused me and many others of racist comments - so put your balls where your mouth is. Metaphorically.

Or are the moderators part of the vast conspiracy as well? You guys should settle it the old-fashioned way...thumb wrestling!!

[Troll]

Originally posted by Zero
You guys should settle it the old-fashioned way...thumb wrestling!!

Given where Fool's thumb has been the past few days, according to how he's been posting, I demand he washes his hands first.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Zero
You guys should settle it the old-fashioned way...thumb wrestling!!

This is the old fashioned way. It's called backing up your big talk.

Still waiting, Fool. If you don't report me and at LEAST get me sanctioned, if not banned outright, then I will take you to task for every single time you have labeled me a racist.

It's time you learned that bandying around terms without cause has consequences. You can insult my heritage, my religion, even my looks if you like. Water off my back, because opinions from assh*les don't bother me. But when you publicly impugn my character, that's another story.

[Jocko]

That sound you hear is Fool deleting all the posts where he's thrown the word "racist" around like petals before the maharaja.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Jocko


.....then I will take you to task for every single time you have labeled me a racist.

ok, you have a deal...quote all the times I have labelled you a racist and we'll discuss them one by one. You must enjoy looking silly.
Are we using the cheersquads definition of racism? You would find it difficult to find anything in Mein Kampf that satisfies that definition...anyway, do your best, you will be marked on your work.



It's time you learned that bandying around terms without cause has consequences.


Lol.... you've lost it... I'm sorry that people bust up your simple world full of goodies and badies. It shouldn't take you long to build another one.

[/B]

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Jocko
That sound you hear is Fool deleting all the posts where he's thrown the word "racist" around like petals before the maharaja.

come on Jocko the talk is impressive but where are the examples? I'll give you a hint...use that little square button up the top of your screen, the one that says "search"....

I'll enjoy the experience of watching you try to defend racists...

[Jocko]

Originally posted by The Fool


come on Jocko the talk is impressive but where are the examples? I'll give you a hint...use that little square button up the top of your screen, the one that says "search"....

I'll enjoy the experience of watching you try to defend racists...

Fool, I know reading comprehension is not your strong suit, but I'd really appreciate you reviewing the thread again.

I said I want you to report me as one of your "bigot cheerleaders," not to hear you repeat it. Come on, you bloated bag of crap, let's see just how bigoted I am.

Report my racist, bigoted posts to the moderators immediately, you pushy little coward. I've had it up to here with yout two-faced act. Don't handle this like you do most other issues (i.e., deflecting and distracting when caught with your pants down).

Be a man, you silly little twit, and express your outrage at me "racism" by reporting me to the authorities. Immediately.

As to your request, here's a few gems I found in a single thread. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, in that you're addressing a number of people, myself included.

You're right, you don't call me a racist. Your preferred term is "BIGOT." (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32755&perpage=40&pagenumber=1)




"...the bigots and thier cheersquad are being persecuted!"

"...You are part of a large cheersquad on this board that support the racists and bigots... "

"...Here are some examples of non bigoted and non racist statements.

The Blacks in America are lazy.
Arabs are bloodthirsty killers.
Women can't drive.
People who vote Democrat are child molesters.
The Israelis want to commit genocide.

Not a single one of these statements are bigoted or racist according to the cheersquad..."



Come one, Fool, and try to surpass your oh-so-appropriate monicker for once. Report me as a bigot and quit your sissy whining about it. I demand you do so.

[Tmy]

Jocko calls me horrible racists names all the time. He's rude, and he's racist. He has the boorish manners of a Cornell grad. Ban him! Ban him I say!!!

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Tmy
Jocko calls me horrible racists names all the time. He's rude, and he's racist. He has the boorish manners of a Cornell grad. Ban him! Ban him I say!!!

I can't help it if you take offense to "Samoan." Tell it to Margaret Mead, ya savage.

Note to Fool: Tmy and I go way back, and this is what is known as "ribbing." A good-natured, hyperbolic jab between acquaintances. And I didn't call all Samoans savages, Just Tmy - since he is, after all. I mean, look at his spelling.

[Tmy]

Originally posted by Jocko


I can't help it if you take offense to "Samoan." Tell it to Margaret Mead, ya savage.

Note to Fool: Tmy and I go way back, and this is what is known as "ribbing." A good-natured, hyperbolic jab between acquaintances. And I didn't call all Samoans savages, Just Tmy - since he is, after all. I mean, look at his spelling.

Ribbing? Is that what you call it when you try and make me cry. Why dont you tell everyone about your old pal "Wendy"!!? And how you raped her and poked her with sticks.

Fool and evryone else can see right through your pack of lies!

Why dont you just take your racism and obsession with mentally challenged people back to that evil THSMB.com board where you came from!

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Tmy


Ribbing? Is that what you call it when you try and make me cry. Why dont you tell everyone about your old pal "Wendy"!!? And how you raped her and poked her with sticks.

Fool and evryone else can see right through your pack of lies!

Why dont you just take your racism and obsession with mentally challenged people back to that evil TSHMB.com board where you came from!


Why should I take my "obsession" with the mentally challenged elsewhere, when I have you and Fool right here? I prefer this place to the THSMB anyway. Higher level of discourse, Fool notwithstanding. Give my love to everybody there, though.

And leave Wendy out of this. She's only a cousin by marriage, and you, of all people, have a lot of nerve to talk about pointy sticks.

[Tmy]

Fine. Then lets get back to the issue. Why is it that Isreal scores a free pass at racism simply by playing the "terror victim" card. Discuss.



ps.

(Dr. Ivan called. Your prescription is ready and he says you never vist. Oh and next time try not to "lose" your oxycodone.)

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Tmy
Fine. Then lets get back to the issue. Why is it that Isreal scores a free pass at racism simply by playing the "terror victim" card. Discuss.

Fine. Show me an example of the phenomena you describe and we'll discuss. By the wording of your post, I assume you have such examples in mind?



ps.

(Dr. Ivan called. Your prescription is ready and he says you never vist. Oh and next time try not to "lose" your oxycodone.)

Ivan should have banned your ass a long time ago, but like me, he has a soft spot for the "handicapable." Dammit, Timmy, I just can't stay mad at you, ya lovable lug.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by Tmy
Fine. Then lets get back to the issue. Why is it that Isreal scores a free pass at racism simply by playing the "terror victim" card. Discuss.



Perhaps if you could explain how they are playing the "teror victim" card in this issue, it would be easier to discuss?

[Tmy]

Its all a conspiracy I tell ya!

What theyr really saying is: "Dont sleep with the help cause you might end up marrying the help who will then want to become Isreali citizens except they are not Jews and we dont want that cause if we have too many non jews in isreal they will start to take over and then theyll kill us cause they are antisemites, sooooooo antisemtic that theyll even marry jews and have kids with them just to GET US! we're the victims here, just look at all the terror!"

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Tmy
Its all a conspiracy I tell ya!

What theyr really saying is: "Dont sleep with the help cause you might end up marrying the help who will then want to become Isreali citizens except they are not Jews and we dont want that cause if we have too many non jews in isreal they will start to take over and then theyll kill us cause they are antisemites, sooooooo antisemtic that theyll even marry jews and have kids with them just to GET US!"

Yeah, that's what I thought. Go back to your X-Files marathon ya schmuck.

Although it is a tad funny that they're apparently not prohibited from marrying, only from breeding.

[Cleopatra]

To Jocko and Tmy:

I think that teenagers are more mature when they discuss about that matter.

I will PM my answer to The Fool out of courtesy. I don't know where you two idiots come from but I do not accept idiots trolling about my country.

Cretins!

I am out of here.

[Tmy]

Originally posted by Cleopatra
To Jocko and Tmy:

I think that teenagers are more mature when they discuss about that matter.

I will PM my answer to The Fool out of courtesy. I don't know where you two idiots come from but I do not accept idiots trolling about my country.

Cretins!

I am out of here.

Maybe if more people in your country had a sense of humor you wouldnt have so many problems.

Look, you have to admit that Isreal is a racist country. Im not arguing whether its justified or not. But when you have fences, checkpoints, refugee camps, and race based immigration/naturalization policies YOU'D BE A RACIST COUNTRY MASSA!!

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Tmy


Maybe if more people in your country had a sense of humor you wouldnt have so many problems.

Look, you have to admit that Isreal is a racist country. Im not arguing whether its justified or not. But when you have fences, checkpoints, refugee camps, and race based immigration/naturalization policies YOU'D BE A RACIST COUNTRY MASSA!!

Easy, Timmy, easy. I don't think she appreciates our brand of humor. Fair enough. I'll restrain myself.

However, I'm still waiting for Fool to back up his insulting charges of bigotry.

[Tmy]

RESTRAIN NOTHING!!! I'm here to spread the good word. You get to world peace by learning to laugh at ourselves and our differences, that and smoking alot of pot.

As for pfoff of you being a bigot!? Maybe Troll used his Obvious-meter. :p

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Tmy


As for pfoff of you being a bigot!? Maybe Troll used his Obvious-meter. :p

Sour grapes, my child. You're just upset because no one here wants to sleep with Samoans.

[Tmy]

Jocko, I would expect you to be more sympathetic to the Palistinians.

Your home is alot like Isreal nad you play the part of the Palistinians. Your wife is control and calls all the shots. Shes installed net nanny on your computer so you cant view porn or even the Stern site. Now given your perverted histroy you really cant blame her. You have your own den, but she still controls what furniture goes in there, and who you can invite over. Now Mrs. Jocko runs around bragging how your home is a bastion of fairness and democracy, but we all know the truth now dont we.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by The Fool


from the same link...

Cohen also researched 1,700 Israeli children's books published after 1967. He found that 520 of the books contained humiliating, negative descriptions of Palestinians. He also took pains to break down the descriptions:

Sixty six percent of the 520 books refer to Arabs as violent; 52 percent as evil; 37 percent as liars; 31 percent as greedy; 28 percent as two-faced; 27 percent as traitors, etc.

Cohen points out that the authors of these children's books effectively instill hatred toward Arabs by means of stripping them of their human nature and classifying them in another category. In a sampling of 86 books, Cohen counted the following descriptions used to dehumanize Arabs: Murderer was used 21 times; snake, 6 times; dirty, 9 times; vicious animal, 17 times; bloodthirsty, 21 times; warmonger, 17 times; killer, 13 times; believer in myths, 9 times; and a camel's hump, 2 times.


I've got no doubt that palestinian literature contains similar garbage...

Again, this is not an example. This is just an opinion of someone who "researched" the subject. I need a specific example like an excerpt from a book. I can take any book and find "evil" biases against someone. There's no way to have a book that portrays every single minority, ethnicity, nationality, religion in a positive light unless the book is completely blank...even then it'll probably offend someone.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Jocko


Fool, I know reading comprehension is not your strong suit, but I'd really appreciate you reviewing the thread again.

I said I want you to report me as one of your "bigot cheerleaders," not to hear you repeat it. Come on, you bloated bag of crap, let's see just how bigoted I am.

Report my racist, bigoted posts to the moderators immediately, you pushy little coward. I've had it up to here with yout two-faced act. Don't handle this like you do most other issues (i.e., deflecting and distracting when caught with your pants down).

Be a man, you silly little twit, and express your outrage at me "racism" by reporting me to the authorities. Immediately.

As to your request, here's a few gems I found in a single thread. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, in that you're addressing a number of people, myself included.

You're right, you don't call me a racist. Your preferred term is "BIGOT." (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32755&perpage=40&pagenumber=1)



Come one, Fool, and try to surpass your oh-so-appropriate monicker for once. Report me as a bigot and quit your sissy whining about it. I demand you do so.

Ok doofus, I'm getting tired of explaining this to you over and over....
Firstly you accuse me of calling you a racist, which is a lie. You were caught out in this lie so you modify your charges to something about me calling you a bigot....oooops thats another lie isn't it... I have never called you a bigot, I have called you an apologist for bigots by demonstrating clearly bigoted and racist statements that you claim are not bigoted and racist in order to keep your spot in the cheersquad...Pathetic.

So either put up or shut up Jocko... You said I called you a racist.. a proven lie. You said I called you a bigot....a proven lie. I definitely did call you an apologist for racists and bigots, If you wish to try for third time lucky we can debate that issue if you like.

You don't get banned on this forum for either lying or being an apologist for racists and bigots so there is no point in reporting you to mods, besides...I am not the reporting type, so sorry, I won't be able to assist you in that attention seeking plan.

look dude, its as simple as this...If you go around rationalising bigoted and racist outburst by saying its just the bigot getting "a bit emotional" then quibbling over the blatantly bigoted and racist statements to try and wish them away or massage them into some acceptable form then you deserve no higher regard than the bigots and racists you pander to.


So anyway....got any examples of me calling you a racist? got any examples of me calling you a bigot? seems to me that you were either lying or have a very, very short attention span...which is it?

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Grammatron


Again, this is not an example. This is just an opinion of someone who "researched" the subject. I need a specific example like an excerpt from a book. I can take any book and find "evil" biases against someone. There's no way to have a book that portrays every single minority, ethnicity, nationality, religion in a positive light unless the book is completely blank...even then it'll probably offend someone.
Oh come on.......... you now reject all studies that don't include the raw data in the conclusions? Is this a standard you also apply to studies that agree with you? Did you speak out and reject the "opinion polls" about what palestinians thought of Israelis because there was no raw data? Or was the conclusion of the studies enough for you in those cases?

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by The Fool

Oh come on.......... you now reject all studies that don't include the raw data in the conclusions? Is this a standard you also apply to studies that agree with you? Did you speak out and reject the "opinion polls" about what palestinians thought of Israelis because there was no raw data? Or was the conclusion of the studies enough for you in those cases?

Opinion polls contain what questions are asked. If the question asked was "What do you think of the color blue in Israeli flag?" and most people said they did not like that and then that data was interpreted as "most people asked hate Israel" I would disregard such poll.

I don't believe I am asking for that much here, most critics of movies, books, music of such nature include at least some part of said media to backup allegation of racism/sexism/whateverism. This one just has number with no explanation of how people arrived at such numbers.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Grammatron


Opinion polls contain what questions are asked. If the question asked was "What do you think of the color blue in Israeli flag?" and most people said they did not like that and then that data was interpreted as "most people asked hate Israel" I would disregard such poll.

I don't believe I am asking for that much here, most critics of movies, books, music of such nature include at least some part of said media to backup allegation of racism/sexism/whateverism. This one just has number with no explanation of how people arrived at such numbers.
so if a study is counting the number of moths on a bush and determining thier color then the study saying there were 15 grey moths is acceptable but a study saying that a book contained the following number of the following words used to describe arabs is not acceptable? You want to see the text to make sure the guy wasn't imagining the word murderer or warmonger or believer in myths?

Lets get the the bottom of this, do you believe there is any racism in Israel at all? do you believe that Israelis are in any way more or less racist that the world norm? What sort of evidence that Israelis can be racist would you accept as valid?

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by The Fool

so if a study is counting the number of moths on a bush and determining thier color then the study saying there were 15 grey moths is acceptable but a study saying that a book contained the following number of the following words used to describe arabs is not acceptable? You want to see the text to make sure the guy wasn't imagining the word murderer or warmonger or believer in myths?

Lets get the the bottom of this, do you believe there is any racism in Israel at all? do you believe that Israelis are in any way more or less racist that the world norm? What sort of evidence that Israelis can be racist would you accept as valid?

Yes I believe there is racism in Israel. There's racism in every country, how much and by whom that's what is most important. You have not shown evidence that there is state-sponsored racism in Israel.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Grammatron


Yes I believe there is racism in Israel. There's racism in every country, how much and by whom that's what is most important. You have not shown evidence that there is state-sponsored racism in Israel.
sigh..."starte-sponsored" where did you pull that from?

A_U_P said "There are numerous examples of racism by Israelis towards others."
you asked for "facts to back this up"

so now that people have posted an example of racism.....you add in the requirement that it has to be "state-sponsored" racism?

Anyway, If you want examples of state sponsored racism talk to me about full Israeli citizenship rights for people of arab race.... does it exist or are your rights based on your race? Try to get equal rights in an Arab nation in you are Jewish.... It is everywhere.

Racism is rampant in the middle east. Generations of conflict guarantee it spreads like a poison plague. Isrealis are riddled with it, as are Arabs...why is this such a hard thing to acknowledge. Nothing can be done about it until people stop trying to pretend its not there.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by The Fool


So anyway....got any examples of me calling you a racist? got any examples of me calling you a bigot? seems to me that you were either lying or have a very, very short attention span...which is it?

I gave you three of them from a single thread, you ass. Your delusions of crusading against the "bigot cheerleading squad" have permeated everything you've said for a week now.

Bigot=racist. Leave it to you to hang not only on semantics, but completely meaningless semantics. Am I then to understand that you do not feel I'm a bigot? Since you've produced nothing to back up the claims you made and I reposted here, I expect you'll have no cause to keep bandying around terms like that. Right?

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Jocko

I gave you three of them from a single thread, you ass. Your delusions of crusading against the "bigot cheerleading squad" have permeated everything you've said for a week now.

Are you slow? I told you the last time that I wasn't going to explain it again....you cannot give a single example of me calling you a bigot, you cannot give a single example of me calling you a racist. Your claims are Crap.... I have told you before and I'll tell you again, you are a blatant apologist for bigots and racists... If you want to accuse me of saying that... I don't have a problem...here I'll say it again, you are a blatant apologist for bigots and racists...

It really doesn't matter how many examples of me saying this you can find....I'll give you as many as you want...one more? You are an apologist for bigots and racists... I fear there is little chance you will ever understand the difference between being a bigot and being an apologist for bigots, the difference is apparently too difficult for you to comprehend.


Now either get your act together or stop just restating your fabrications and lies in the hope that things will get better. Your stupid behavior in this thread is already getting up peoples noses. Is Spreading lies and trying to make a joke out of a very serious topic your Idea of fun?


Bigot=racist. Leave it to you to hang not only on semantics, but completely meaningless semantics. Am I then to understand that you do not feel I'm a bigot?

sheeeesh, how many times do you need me to repeat it....ok one more time for the challenged. YES, I have never called you a bigot.....I said, and you have demonstrated, that you are an apologist for bigots and racists.

Since you've produced nothing to back up the claims you made and I reposted here, I expect you'll have no cause to keep bandying around terms like that. Right?

sorry...not going to explain again.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by The Fool


I fear there is little chance you will ever understand the difference between being a bigot and being an apologist for bigots, the difference is apparently too difficult for you to comprehend.


Or too arbitrary, perhaps? Is being labeled a terrorist sympathizer substantially different than being labeled a terrorist?

I said, and you have demonstrated, that you are an apologist for bigots and racists.

You claim ad nauseam that I am such, but when challenged, never provide and example as I was kind enough to do on your part. Perhaps when you're done backpedaling you'll grace me with such an example?

Unless, of course, you count anyone who disagrees with yourself and AUP as an apologist for bigots, which seems to be the case. In that event, who exactly am I apologizing for?

[Troll]

Fool, you said I made a claim, and then challanged me to find where examples of it. But the thing is, you're just too damned stupid to realize, even after being told repeatedly that I never made such a claim. After 15 or so posts, you finally asked me if I did make such a claim and when I said no, you switched topics for a few then went back to saying Imade such a claim and asked me , again, to find proof, all the while ignoring the reality that I never made such a claim to begin with.

If this is the best you can offer, as it has cropped up here again only this time with Jocko, then may I suggest you take a look internally. If you find no fault, then seek help from someone not you.

I never called you a racist or bigot and explained that 4 times to you. After the third it appearefd you understood but I still didn't agree with you so you went back to saying I did and challenged me to find proof of something I never said to begin with.

I'm not trained to give you the care you apparently need, so avoided asking me for the help and seek it elsewhere. You've called people a racist or a bigot, nobody has called you such. So deal with reality and stop the diversionary crap, no one is buying it and the more you try it the more your name makes sense.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by The Fool

Anyway, If you want examples of state sponsored racism talk to me about full Israeli citizenship rights for people of arab race.... does it exist or are your rights based on your race? Try to get equal rights in an Arab nation in you are Jewish.... It is everywhere.


Are you saying that Israeli-Arabs do not have the same rights as Israeli-Jews?

[Ed]

Originally posted by The Fool


Lets get the the bottom of this, do you believe there is any racism in Israel at all? do you believe that Israelis are in any way more or less racist that the world norm? What sort of evidence that Israelis can be racist would you accept as valid?

Racism directed at whom? Palistinians are not a race, are they? Perhaps the charge is antisemitism, is that it? Or, is it the progressive ploy of charging racism in their never ending game of "gotcha"?

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by The Fool

sigh..."starte-sponsored" where did you pull that from?

A_U_P said "There are numerous examples of racism by Israelis towards others."
you asked for "facts to back this up"

Where did I get it from? Oh well lets look at the entire quote, shall we?
There are numerous examples of racism by Israelis towards others. The whole "apartheid" system it is built on is unsustainable.
Gee, I wonder what the apartheid reference is to, could it be the government?

so now that people have posted an example of racism.....you add in the requirement that it has to be "state-sponsored" racism?

No, I did not add any such thing. If you stick to the entire quote you will see I am well within its bounds to ask such a question.
Anyway, If you want examples of state sponsored racism talk to me about full Israeli citizenship rights for people of arab race.... does it exist or are your rights based on your race? Try to get equal rights in an Arab nation in you are Jewish.... It is everywhere.

Racism is rampant in the middle east. Generations of conflict guarantee it spreads like a poison plague. Isrealis are riddled with it, as are Arabs...why is this such a hard thing to acknowledge. Nothing can be done about it until people stop trying to pretend its not there.

Ok, so you are you telling me that there are no Arab citizens in Israel?

[Zero]

So...what does any of this have to do with getting some Israeli tail?;)

[Troll]

Originally posted by Zero
So...what does any of this have to do with getting some Israeli tail?;)

Well in your case we'd like to stop you from breeding with anyone outside of you yet to be indentified species.:p

[Zero]

Originally posted by Troll


Well in your case we'd like to stop you from breeding with anyone outside of you yet to be indentified species.:p This coming from a 'troll'? I'm sure a more important thing would be to keep you from breeding within your immediate family. Just because it worked for your parents doesn't mean you should sneak over to your first cousin's bed....

[Troll]

Originally posted by Zero
This coming from a 'troll'? I'm sure a more important thing would be to keep you from breeding within your immediate family. Just because it worked for your parents doesn't mean you should sneak over to your first cousin's bed....

she's merely a cousin by marriage dude. Besides, I'm not forcing myself on her or anyone else, unlike yourself you feels that putting on the leather gloves and grabbing the knife is foreplay. And I'm the Troll, not a troll. Had the name before your buddy "invented the internet".

[Zero]

Originally posted by Troll


she's merely a cousin by marriage dude. Besides, I'm not forcing myself on her or anyone else, unlike yourself you feels that putting on the leather gloves and grabbing the knife is foreplay. And I'm the Troll, not a troll. Had the name before your buddy "invented the internet". Ummmm...look, some chicks like the gloves, ok? We use a safeword....


And which one of your RNC buddies invented the 'invented the internet' lie, since 'my buddy' never said that?

Ahhh....you almost got me!! Trying to distract me from bagging some hot Jewish chick again?

[Troll]

Originally posted by Zero
Ummmm...look, some chicks like the gloves, ok? We use a safeword....


And which one of your RNC buddies invented the 'invented the internet' lie, since 'my buddy' never said that?

Ahhh....you almost got me!! Trying to distract me from bagging some hot Jewish chick again?

None created the lie. we just like playing with his actual words to Blitzer which were "I took the initiative in creating the Internet."


Well yeah. I mean us racist types like to prevent your kind from sexing up women we like because we fear they may get the "fever" for your kind. I mean face it, some women can't handle the big ones so they turn to people like you.:p

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Grammatron

Where did I get it from? Oh well lets look at the entire quote, shall we?
There are numerous examples of racism by Israelis towards others. The whole "apartheid" system it is built on is unsustainable.
Gee, I wonder what the apartheid reference is to, could it be the government?


No, I did not add any such thing. If you stick to the entire quote you will see I am well within its bounds to ask such a question.

Ok, so you are you telling me that there are no Arab citizens in Israel?

No Arab Citizens in Israel?? where did that one come from?
I said Arabs don't have the same rights as jews . There is discrimination based on race when people attempt to obtain citizenship and there is discrimination, based on race thereafter.

http://www.canadiandimension.mb.ca/extra/d0801jh.htm

Israel's Parliament has passed a law preventing Palestinians who marry Israelis from living in Israel. The move was denounced by human rights organisations as racist, undemocratic and discriminatory.

http://us.oneworld.net/article/view/64819/1/

The "Nationality and Entry into Israel" law, which passed in the Knesset by a margin of 53 to 25, has been denounced as discriminatory and racist by human rights groups, pointing out that it violates multiples provisions of international human rights law.

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0390/9003010.htm

Since Israel is a state of, by, and for the Jewish people, the resources primarily benefit Jews. Arabs are taxed like Jews, but they do not have the same access to resources as Jews. The land held by the state may not be sold or leased to Arabs. Arab villages and farms do not get the same quality of services-electrical, water, and so on-as Jewish towns and farms. Arab farmers in Israel are not free to sell their produce directly to buyers outside the country. (Only threats of retaliation against Israeli products by the European Community persuaded the authorities to let Arabs in the occupied territories export directly.)

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Ed


Racism directed at whom? Palistinians are not a race, are they? Perhaps the charge is antisemitism, is that it? Or, is it the progressive ploy of charging racism in their never ending game of "gotcha"?
Or possibly the never ending game of (in the words of my Avatar)...."I see nothing"

Call it what you like Ed.....

[Jocko]

Originally posted by The Fool

Or possibly the never ending game of (in the words of my Avatar)...."I see nothing"

Call it what you like Ed.....

Tell me if that's any worse than seeing things that aren't there.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Ed


Racism directed at whom? Palistinians are not a race, are they? Perhaps the charge is antisemitism, is that it? Or, is it the progressive ploy of charging racism in their never ending game of "gotcha"?

Once again, an act of intellectual genocide. If you say it often enough, they disappear and are no longer people even. Their race is Arabic, although, like white people, they span many distinct cultures and geographical locations.

[Troll]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


Once again, an act of intellectual genocide. If you say it often enough, they disappear and are no longer people even. Their race is Arabic, although, like white people, they span many distinct cultures and geographical locations.

Yes. Their race is Arab. So are the Jordanians and Egyptians. Two groups that the Israelis have an understanding with. Don't attack us and we won't attack you. Doesn't sound like there is some sort of racist/anti-arab deal there.

And I'll ask ya again since you selectively avoided it the last time.

If you and others claim the Israelis are occupying land, whose land are they occupying? Give me a country or a people that the land the Israelis are "occupying".

[Zero]

Originally posted by Troll



If you and others claim the Israelis are occupying land, whose land are they occupying? Give me a country or a people that the land the Israelis are "occupying". Arab land, that's for sure...hadn't the Jews been m,ostly kicked out of the area for about a millenium?

[Troll]

Originally posted by Zero
Arab land, that's for sure...hadn't the Jews been m,ostly kicked out of the area for about a millenium?

The land doesn't belong to a race. So, whose land is it anyway? The new show with Drewbar Careydat as your host.

Joking aside. Whose land are they supposedly occupying?

[Zero]

Originally posted by Troll


The land doesn't belong to a race. So, whose land is it anyway? The new show with Drewbar Careydat as your host.

Joking aside. Whose land are they supposedly occupying? Like I said, weren't most of the Jews removed about 800-1000 years before WWII?

[Troll]

Originally posted by Zero
Like I said, weren't most of the Jews removed about 800-1000 years before WWII?

Yes. So? They are now in Israel and also "occupying" someone's land. Whose land?

[Zero]

Originally posted by Troll


Yes. So? They are now in Israel and also "occupying" someone's land. Whose land? SO?!? They are occupying the land of the f***ing people who lived there for dozens of generations. I don't give a rat's a$$ of you call them Arabs or Palestinians or Smurfs, there were people living on the land given to the Jews after WWII...land that belonged to other people, land that Jewish people had absolutely, 100%, no f**ing right to settle on.

No one has ever satisfactorily explained to me why Israel was created from other people's land, and I'm not sure anyone ever will.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Zero

No one has ever satisfactorily explained to me why Israel was created from other people's land, and I'm not sure anyone ever will.

I'm guessing because everything already belonged to someone, and Antarctica didn't have such nice beaches?

I never understood the idea that Isreal "stole" or "occupied" someone else's land. Sure, Arabs have been there for centuries, but surely the Jews were there before that? And if you go back far enough it belonged to the dinosaurs. Since Israel was created by the international community, doesn't that lend and legitimacy to its existence?

[Zero]

Originally posted by Jocko


I'm guessing because everything already belonged to someone, and Antarctica didn't have such nice beaches?

I never understood the idea that Isreal "stole" or "occupied" someone else's land. Sure, Arabs have been there for centuries, but surely the Jews were there before that? And if you go back far enough it belonged to the dinosaurs. Since Israel was created by the international community, doesn't that lend and legitimacy to its existence? Well, thanks for not flaming me, anyways...:D

I don't dispute Israel's current right to exist, on account of "a done bun can't be undone"; you can't just undo a half-century of history, even if it makes no sense to you at all. On the other hand, I completely understand how some people can disagree with Iseal's right to exist. Sure, it is a more emotional than pragmatic view, but since when have people been logical?

Here's an interesting question(to me, at least): did this 'international community' that created Israel include any Arabs?

[Troll]

Originally posted by Zero
SO?!? They are occupying the land of the f***ing people who lived there for dozens of generations. I don't give a rat's a$$ of you call them Arabs or Palestinians or Smurfs, there were people living on the land given to the Jews after WWII...land that belonged to other people, land that Jewish people had absolutely, 100%, no f**ing right to settle on.

No one has ever satisfactorily explained to me why Israel was created from other people's land, and I'm not sure anyone ever will.

Land that belonged to the Brits who gave it to the Jews so they could form Israel.

But you fail to take notice of AUP's posts. He admits Israel has a right to be. His claims of occupation are the lands known as the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. So I'll ask you since you feel like answering for him, whose land is that?

[Zero]

Originally posted by Troll


Land that belonged to the Brits who gave it to the Jews so they could form Israel.

But you fail to take notice of AUP's posts. He admits Israel has a right to be. His claims of occupation are the lands known as the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. So I'll ask you since you feel like answering for him, whose land is that? How much did the Brits pay for it? Were people living on that land, and did they acknowledge British ownership? I honestly don't think any non-Arab has a legitimate claim on the land.

Again, though, that is the non-pragmatic viewpoint. The reality of the current situation is that the Israelis are trying to expand their territory through illegal settlements. Israel should go back to the EXACT land given to them by the f**ing Brits after WWII,. and every country that gives money to either side should give matching funds to the other...


...also, ice water and porn, and pave over Jerusalem just on principle. :D

[Troll]

Originally posted by Zero
Well, thanks for not flaming me, anyways...:D

I don't dispute Israel's current right to exist, on account of "a done bun can't be undone"; you can't just undo a half-century of history, even if it makes no sense to you at all. On the other hand, I completely understand how some people can disagree with Iseal's right to exist. Sure, it is a more emotional than pragmatic view, but since when have people been logical?

Here's an interesting question(to me, at least): did this 'international community' that created Israel include any Arabs?

Yes it did and they voted against it.

Adopted at the 128th plenary meeting:
In favour: 33 Australia, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, Byelorussian S.S.R., Canada, Costa Rica, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, France, Guatemala, Haiti, Iceland, Liberia, Luxemburg, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Sweden, Ukrainian S.S.R., Union of South Africa, U.S.A., U.S.S.R., Uruguay, Venezuela.

Against: 13

Afghanistan, Cuba, Egypt, Greece, India, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, Yemen.

Abstained: 10

Argentina, Chile, China, Colombia, El Salvador, Ethiopia, Honduras, Mexico, United Kingdom, Yugoslavia.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Troll


So I'll ask you since you feel like answering for him, whose land is that?

Well, I can offer a suggestion....Go there, walk around the place and ask to be introduced to the owner of the land you are standing on...I'll bet you the sum of one dollar (Australian) that you would never get the answer "Gee, I don't think anyone owns it, I guess anyone with an army can just have it".

Claims by people that they had ancient ancestors who lived there before someone elses ancient ancestors are (in my view) right up there with claims that Gods have given you the land......

[Troll]

Originally posted by Zero
How much did the Brits pay for it? Were people living on that land, and did they acknowledge British ownership? I honestly don't think any non-Arab has a legitimate claim on the land.

Again, though, that is the non-pragmatic viewpoint. The reality of the current situation is that the Israelis are trying to expand their territory through illegal settlements. Israel should go back to the EXACT land given to them by the f**ing Brits after WWII,. and every country that gives money to either side should give matching funds to the other...


...also, ice water and porn, and pave over Jerusalem just on principle. :D

Illegal settlements on whose land? why do you never answer that damned question? Did your goat break into the house again and get ya all horny and preoccupied or something?:p

[Zero]

Originally posted by Troll


Yes it did and they voted against it.

Adopted at the 128th plenary meeting:
In favour: 33 Australia, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, Byelorussian S.S.R., Canada, Costa Rica, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, France, Guatemala, Haiti, Iceland, Liberia, Luxemburg, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Sweden, Ukrainian S.S.R., Union of South Africa, U.S.A., U.S.S.R., Uruguay, Venezuela.

Against: 13

Afghanistan, Cuba, Egypt, Greece, India, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, Yemen.

Abstained: 10

Argentina, Chile, China, Colombia, El Salvador, Ethiopia, Honduras, Mexico, United Kingdom, Yugoslavia. See, this is something I'll never understand: stealing land from people, based on a vote of uninvolved parties. If someone voted to take my land away, I would blow them up to...why does anyone see Palestinain resistance as terrorism, when they would do the same thing in the same circumstances?

Christ, I hate the idea of killing civilians, but look at the situation? A bunch of people from other continents vote to give your land to people from other continents, and then next thing you know they try to take away what little land you get from the first time your land is stolen from you,...


...can someone PLEASE explain to me why Israel exists in the first place?

[Troll]

Originally posted by The Fool


Well, I can offer a suggestion....Go there, walk around the place and ask to be introduced to the owner of the land you are standing on...I'll bet you the sum of one dollar (Australian) that you would never get the answer "Gee, I don't think anyone owns it, I guess anyone with an army can just have it".

Claims by people that they had ancient ancestors who lived there before someone elses ancient ancestors are (in my view) right up there with claims that Gods have given you the land......

Well I'm not getting any answers from the likes of you as to whose freaking land it is either. So take the "never answering the damned question and tossing in some diversionary crap" you tend to do elsewhere, I'm not buying.

WHOSE LAND IS BEING OCCUPIED?

[Zero]

Originally posted by Troll


Illegal settlements on whose land? why do you never answer that damned question? Did your goat break into the house again and get ya all horny and preoccupied or something?:p

Ok, let me break it down for you Barney the Purple F***ing Dinosaur style:

1) Did people live in the land that is now Israel before 1947?

2) Were those people removed from their homes to make way for the people who now call themselves Israelis?

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Troll


Well I'm not getting any answers from the likes of you as to whose freaking land it is either. So take the "never answering the damned question and tossing in some diversionary crap" you tend to do elsewhere, I'm not buying.

WHOSE LAND IS BEING OCCUPIED?

do you want a list of the names of all the current owners doofus??
The land is owned by its current owners. If you really need thier names then go there and ask nicely.

Jesus H Christ are you that thick??????

[Zero]

Originally posted by The Fool


do you want a list of the names of all the current owners doofus??
The land is owned by its current owners. If you really need thier names then go there and ask nicely.

Jesus H Christ are you that thick?????? This is the sort of hair-splitting done by hypocrits and liars...let's see how he answers my last questions, before passing judgment, ok?

[Troll]

Originally posted by Zero


Ok, let me break it down for you Barney the Purple F***ing Dinosaur style:

1) Did people live in the land that is now Israel before 1947?

2) Were those people removed from their homes to make way for the people who now call themselves Israelis?

Yes to both. The control of the land was under the Brits.

So now I've gone and answered your questions. 2 of them answered all nice and easy like.

I asked one several times. The land was given to the Israelis for a state by the Brits, well given by the UN in the Brits giving up control. The same time that happened there was a clause for a Palestinian state as well. But others cocked it up. Not the Palestinians but other countries.

And if you think, from your previous post, that countries not in the area should not have a need to or right to vote on something in that area then you should be bitching about the UN as a whole

Here's a pretty decent site about it all

http://www.trumanlibrary.org/israel/palestin.htm

[Troll]

Originally posted by The Fool


do you want a list of the names of all the current owners doofus??
The land is owned by its current owners. If you really need thier names then go there and ask nicely.

Jesus H Christ are you that thick??????

Why are you so afraid to say the land is or was Jordanian, Syrian and Egyptian? There's your answer. As for thick, have you been reading your own posts? You've already shown your ass in 3 threads. As you're the only one named Fool you're apt to be the only one that buys into your crap. Run along junior , your little games are not being played by others anymore.

[Troll]

Originally posted by Zero
This is the sort of hair-splitting done by hypocrits and liars...let's see how he answers my last questions, before passing judgment, ok?

Hey dude, answered them and you've yet to answer mine. But it's okay. I went and answered for ya since you appeared to need the help.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Troll


Hey dude, answered them and you've yet to answer mine. But it's okay. I went and answered for ya since you appeared to need the help. You didn't answer...yougave a hair-splitting legalistic answer that avoided the real issue. Here, try answering another question or two for me:

1) Were the people who are now referred to as Palestinains moved out of their homes and off their land to make room for the people who are now referred to as Israelis?

2) Were the people who are currently referred to as Israelis given billions of dollars to build homes, national defense, and infrastructure by the U.S. and other Western nations?

3) Were the people who are currently referred to as Palestinians given billions of dollars to build homes, national defense, and infrastructure by the U.S. and other Western nations, in the land they were relocated to after being diosplaced by the Israelis?

[Zero]

Let me rephase myself in language you will understand...your answers have been Clintonesque...

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Troll


Why are you so afraid to say the land is or was Jordanian, Syrian and Egyptian? There's your answer. As for thick, have you been reading your own posts? You've already shown your ass in 3 threads. As you're the only one named Fool you're apt to be the only one that buys into your crap. Run along junior , your little games are not being played by others anymore.

Whats the point, I played along with you for some time thinking that maybe you were not an Idiot... But it appears I am wrong.

I own the little piece of land that surrounds my house, The Australian government does not own it. Who owns your house, assuming you have one? The government?

The lands of "palestine" were once part of the Ottoman empire When that little mob fell apart the British and french took on the task of carving up the ex ottoman middle east, creating nations for favoured families. The French created Syria, the british Jordan etc.... The question of what "nation" owns this land is quite silly....this land you are blithering about is not within any nations currently accepted borders. The land still has individual human occupants and owners, it always has.... no amount of wishing will make them disappear.

Now I know you are upset about the way I've spoken to you in previous threads and If I have offended you I apologise, but as you seem to have stopped making stuff up and attributing it to me I feel it was worth it to take you to task.

[Zero]

Originally posted by The Fool
The land still has individual human occupants and owners, it always has.... no amount of wishing will make them disappear.

Are you sure? This seems to be the goal of certain people, to pretend that the Israelis have always lived where they are now, and the Palestinains are angry for no reason at all. It is this dismissal of the reality of the situation that most upsets me...I guess the prevailing attitude is that the Palestinians should shut up and like living as refugees, because (in a mad fit of moral relativism), being displaced is better than a Holocaust, therefore, displacement is a perfectly acceptable solution.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Zero
Let me rephase myself in language you will understand...your answers have been Clintonesque...

Hey, hey, hey... careful with the "C" word, pal.

It occurs to me that getting kicked off that particular patch of land is an occupational hazard of living there. I'm sure the Israelis are feeling the same heat the Arabs did back in'47.

Purely out of my nether regions, I've heard - though it's too late here to go on a link hunt - that the Palestinians were assured by Jordan, Syria, et al to take a pass on the deal because Israel was going to be wiped out as soon as it was established, and got left in the cold when that failed to happen. Can anyone confirm or deny this offhand?

[Zero]

Originally posted by Jocko


Hey, hey, hey... careful with the "C" word, pal.

It occurs to me that getting kicked off that particular patch of land is an occupational hazard of living there. I'm sure the Israelis are feeling the same heat the Arabs did back in'47.

Purely out of my nether regions, I've heard - though it's too late here to go on a link hunt - that the Palestinians were assured by Jordan, Syria, et al to take a pass on the deal because Israel was going to be wiped out as soon as it was established, and got left in the cold when that failed to happen. Can anyone confirm or deny this offhand? I dunno about the quality of what comes out of your backside(although it seems to match what you post:p ), but the displacement itself is something I have issue with, not assurances that Israel would be shortly destroyed.

Again, I ask...I know Israel has recieved billions upon billions of dollars for absolutely no reason at all...where was the money for the displaced Palestinians?

[Troll]

Originally posted by Zero
You didn't answer...yougave a hair-splitting legalistic answer that avoided the real issue. Here, try answering another question or two for me:



2) Were the people who are currently referred to as Israelis given billions of dollars to build homes, national defense, and infrastructure by the U.S. and other Western nations?

3) Were the people who are currently referred to as Palestinians given billions of dollars to build homes, national defense, and infrastructure by the U.S. and other Western nations, in the land they were relocated to after being diosplaced by the Israelis?

What tactic is this? You asked :
1) Were the people who are now referred to as Palestinains moved out of their homes and off their land to make room for the people who are now referred to as Israelis?
1) Did people live in the land that is now Israel before 1947?

2) Were those people removed from their homes to make way for the people who now call themselves Israelis?

I said yes to both.

Now you reword questions and toss in a third and yet you've never made an attempt to answer mine? Is my name Fool?

1) Were the people who are now referred to as Palestinains moved out of their homes and off their land to make room for the people who are now referred to as Israelis? Not sure of the moved out of their homes thing. Are you? I know that roughly 300,000 were considered to be displaced.

2) Were the people who are currently referred to as Israelis given billions of dollars to build homes, national defense, and infrastructure by the U.S. and other Western nations? Yeah. So? What the hell is the point in this? We supported a state for them and later, not immediately we supplied them with money and military equipment. It's politics, everyone supplies someone with something. Are you angry that we picked the Israelis? You gotta remember this was the late 1940's when all this began. we had to wait a few years until the American decadance let us supply people on both sides of a conflict. ;)

3) Were the people who are currently referred to as Palestinians given billions of dollars to build homes, national defense, and infrastructure by the U.S. and other Western nations, in the land they were relocated to after being diosplaced by the Israelis? No they were not. Did they ask for it?

[The Fool]

As a General post to this thread I would like to present a very important document in the history of Israel, The parts that I have bolded are the parts I think have been forgotten in this whole mess. I have No problems at all with the existence of the Israeli state. I have real problems with thier current government who I think is no better than the Clowns that call themselves the Palestinian leaders... I weep for the common people of palestine and how few people care one hoot about thier fate.




Foreign Office
November 2nd, 1917

Dear Lord Rothschild,

I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet.

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.

Yours sincerely,
Arthur James Balfour

(Bolding mine)

[Zero]

Originally posted by Troll


3) Were the people who are currently referred to as Palestinians given billions of dollars to build homes, national defense, and infrastructure by the U.S. and other Western nations, in the land they were relocated to after being diosplaced by the Israelis? No they were not. Did they ask for it? Hey, I'm gonna kick you out of your house, ok? Maybe, if I feel like it, I'll give you a tent to sleep in...MAYBE. Since, after all, your house doesn't belong to you, it belongs to the government of Guam, and they voted that you have to move.

[Zero]

Originally posted by The Fool
As a General post to this thread I would like to present a very important document in the history of Israel, The parts that I have bolded are the parts I think have been forgotten in this whole mess. I have No problems at all with the existence of the Israeli state. I have real problems with thier current government who I think is no better than the Clowns that call themselves the Palestinian leaders... I weep for the common people of palestine and how few people care one hoot about thier fate.



(Bolding mine) In other words, the Jews were supposed to move in, and at the same time not displace anyone, and that palestinians were to continue to live where they were gonna live? Who screwed this one up?

[Troll]

Originally posted by The Fool


Whats the point, I played along with you for some time thinking that maybe you were not an Idiot... But it appears I am wrong.

I own the little piece of land that surrounds my house, The Australian government does not own it. Who owns your house, assuming you have one? The government?

The lands of "palestine" were once part of the Ottoman empire When that little mob fell apart the British and french took on the task of carving up the ex ottoman middle east, creating nations for favoured families. The French created Syria, the british Jordan etc.... The question of what "nation" owns this land is quite silly....this land you are blithering about is not within any nations currently accepted borders. The land still has individual human occupants and owners, it always has.... no amount of wishing will make them disappear.

Now I know you are upset about the way I've spoken to you in previous threads and If I have offended you I apologise, but as you seem to have stopped making stuff up and attributing it to me I feel it was worth it to take you to task.

ha ha. Go back and read those threads. I never made a thing up, I mostly copied and pasted .

And the question is not silly. AUP claims the Israelis are occupying The West Bank and Gaza. I asked several times whose land is being occupied via those parcels of land. I've never gotten a straight answer from any of the people that seem to want to make this an Israel only issue.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Troll


ha ha. Go back and read those threads. I never made a thing up, I mostly copied and pasted .

And the question is not silly. AUP claims the Israelis are occupying The West Bank and Gaza. I asked several times whose land is being occupied via those parcels of land. I've never gotten a straight answer from any of the people that seem to want to make this an Israel only issue. Thanks for adding me to your sig line...it is the smartest part of any of your posts.

You still haven't explained to me why Israel should exist in the first place. Do you simply not have an answer?

[Troll]

Originally posted by Zero
Hey, I'm gonna kick you out of your house, ok? Maybe, if I feel like it, I'll give you a tent to sleep in...MAYBE. Since, after all, your house doesn't belong to you, it belongs to the government of Guam, and they voted that you have to move.

well if you tried to kick me out of my house, I would rip your nuts off and feed them to you. But notice I said that I would do it. Not my neighbors, not my friends. Me personally. Why was that not the case with the Palestinians? Is it freaking possible that they were somewhat okay with sharing the land before others claiming to speak for them cocked it up by attacking Israel shortly after they became a country?

[Zero]

Originally posted by Troll


well if you tried to kick me out of my house, I would rip your nuts off and feed them to you. You would try, of course...except that you live in a tent, and all you have is rocks, and I'm in a tank. Oops, you threw a rock, I killed your whole family. Serves you right for not appreciating your tent.

[Troll]

Originally posted by Zero
Thanks for adding me to your sig line...it is the smartest part of any of your posts.

You still haven't explained to me why Israel should exist in the first place. Do you simply not have an answer?

They should exist because they needed a place to call home. Same with the Palestinians. Or do you wonder why they should even have a state or exist?

I don't know why you seem to think I'm against a Palestinian state. But I explained why they should exist. Can you do the same?

[Zero]

Originally posted by Troll


They should exist because they needed a place to call home. Same with the Palestinians. Or do you wonder why they should even have a state or exist?

I don't know why you seem to think I'm against a Palestinian state. But I explained why they should exist. Can you do the same? You know...I really can't see why anyone in their right mind would 1) decide a Jewish homeland was a good idea, and 2) put it in the middle of the Middle East. No, I don't see the need to create a Jewish homeland, since almost none of those people were actually from there, were they?(no I don't mean 3000 years ago, I mean 30 years before WWII). A Palestinain state is easy...remove the Israelis, and let the Palestinians move back home. Too bad that advice is 50 years too late, I guess the only thing to do is to match the billions in funding to Israel to billions in funding to Palestinians. It is only fair.

[Troll]

Originally posted by Zero
You would try, of course...except that you live in a tent, and all you have is rocks, and I'm in a tank. Oops, you threw a rock, I killed your whole family. Serves you right for not appreciating your tent.

Yeah that rock tossing at tanks is rather stupid. everyone knows fire forces ya out of the tank. Not saying much for the "home team" is it?

Nope. I'd rip your nads off and feed them to you. No help from others. And the Palestinian rock tossers came years laterm after people speaking on their behalf lost the land they were living on in their countries to Israel because they wanted to kill them off.

At first, backin '48 there was a chance things could have gone smoothly. Yes there was some displacement at first but we're talking about a transitional period and nothing is ever easy during those. Look at moving from one town to another. You gotta find the freaking boxes and figure out which is going into what room. It takes time. There wasn't mass amounts of violence between the newly formed state of Israel and the Palestinians. Not at the beginning in '48. al the stuff you see now is the result of years of attacks. The first few being on the part of Arab nations against Israel

[Some Friggin Guy]

I'm going to interject here only to ask a question that some will condier ignorant, and others will consider to be a joke. I'm prepared for that. My only defense if blind ignorance to the history of the time.

Since Isreal was established after WWII, and since, as far as I can tell, the holocaust played a part in the establishment of Isreal:

Why wasn't the Jewish Nation established in a part of Germany as reparations to the Jews for the atrocities?

Seems to me that such a move, while inconvenient for Germany, would probably have caused less outright bloodshed over the existence of Isreal (or whatever it would have been called).

Esentially, what I'm asking is: was the location of Isreal chosen ONLY because of it's religious significance to the Jewish people?

[Jocko]

Ha! I knew I wasn't speaking rectally.


. Call on Arab and Jewish groups to cease acts of violence, Security Council Resolution S/714, 1 April 1948:

Having rejected the Partition Resolution, the Arabs set out forcibly to abort it. Local Arab forces, assisted by an army of volunteers from neighbouring countries, attacked Jewish villages and towns. The United Nations Palestine Commission, set up to implement the Resolution, could not perform its task because it lacked the means and authority and the Mandatory Government did not allow it to enter Palestine. On 24 February 1948, the Security Council began to discuss the situation. On 1 April, it passed the following Resolution calling for a truce, and decided to convene a special session of the General Assembly "to consider further the question of the future government of Palestine" (Resolution S/715).

The Security Council,

Having received, on 9 December 1947, General Assembly resolution 181 (II) concerning Palestine dated 29 November 1947,

Having taken note of the United Nations Palestine Commission's first and second monthly progress reports and first special report on the problem of security,

Having called, on 5 March 1948, on the permanent members of the Council to consult,

Having taken note of the reports made concerning those consultations,

Requests the Secretary-General, in accordance with Article 20 of the United Nations Charter, to convoke a special session of the General Assembly to consider further the question of the future government of Palestine.


So even from the get-go, the Palestinians have had trouble staying with the program. The reasoning behind it isn't supplied so I won't speculate further.

Partition Timeline (http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH017z0)

[Troll]

Originally posted by Zero
You know...I really can't see why anyone in their right mind would 1) decide a Jewish homeland was a good idea, and 2) put it in the middle of the Middle East. No, I don't see the need to create a Jewish homeland, since almost none of those people were actually from there, were they?(no I don't mean 3000 years ago, I mean 30 years before WWII). A Palestinain state is easy...remove the Israelis, and let the Palestinians move back home. Too bad that advice is 50 years too late, I guess the only thing to do is to match the billions in funding to Israel to billions in funding to Palestinians. It is only fair.

And if they show they can be peaceful with their neighbors, we may end up giving them billions as well.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Some Friggin Guy
I'm going to interject here only to ask a question that some will condier ignorant, and others will consider to be a joke. I'm prepared for that. My only defense if blind ignorance to the history of the time.

Since Isreal was established after WWII, and since, as far as I can tell, the holocaust played a part in the establishment of Isreal:

Why wasn't the Jewish Nation established in a part of Germany as reparations to the Jews for the atrocities?

Seems to me that such a move, while inconvenient for Germany, would probably have caused less outright bloodshed over the existence of Isreal (or whatever it would have been called).

Esentially, what I'm asking is: was the location of Isreal chosen ONLY because of it's religious significance to the Jewish people? See, I was thinking Alaska, but part of Germany would have worked too...:p

[Zero]

Originally posted by Troll


And if they show they can be peaceful with their neighbors, we may end up giving them billions as well. No offense, but don't you think the cash would have worked alot better in 1947? Seriously? It would have been cheaper, fairer, and more in keeping with basic human behavior.

[Troll]

Originally posted by Some Friggin Guy
I'm going to interject here only to ask a question that some will condier ignorant, and others will consider to be a joke. I'm prepared for that. My only defense if blind ignorance to the history of the time.

Since Isreal was established after WWII, and since, as far as I can tell, the holocaust played a part in the establishment of Isreal:

Why wasn't the Jewish Nation established in a part of Germany as reparations to the Jews for the atrocities?

Seems to me that such a move, while inconvenient for Germany, would probably have caused less outright bloodshed over the existence of Isreal (or whatever it would have been called).

Esentially, what I'm asking is: was the location of Isreal chosen ONLY because of it's religious significance to the Jewish people?

Good question, though I think there may have been a turnaround in killings. I mean if you're killing my kind for a long period of time and now I'm in control, well, let's just say you better move real quick.

[Troll]

Originally posted by Zero
No offense, but don't you think the cash would have worked alot better in 1947? Seriously? It would have been cheaper, fairer, and more in keeping with basic human behavior.

Well we can't support the whole freaking world. I guess we thought their beloved fellow arabs would have helped them out. ;)

[Zero]

Originally posted by Troll


Yeah that rock tossing at tanks is rather stupid. everyone knows fire forces ya out of the tank. Not saying much for the "home team" is it?

Nope. I'd rip your nads off and feed them to you. No help from others. And the Palestinian rock tossers came years laterm after people speaking on their behalf lost the land they were living on in their countries to Israel because they wanted to kill them off.

At first, backin '48 there was a chance things could have gone smoothly. Yes there was some displacement at first but we're talking about a transitional period and nothing is ever easy during those. Look at moving from one town to another. You gotta find the freaking boxes and figure out which is going into what room. It takes time. There wasn't mass amounts of violence between the newly formed state of Israel and the Palestinians. Not at the beginning in '48. al the stuff you see now is the result of years of attacks. The first few being on the part of Arab nations against Israel Again, you would try, but I would fly in with a bomber and kill you, and all your neighbor, long before you could consider doing anything to me. Also, luckily for me, I murder your children, so that there is no one to avenge you, huh?

[Zero]

Originally posted by Troll


Well we can't support the whole freaking world. I guess we thought their beloved fellow arabs would have helped them out. ;) So? If we vote to allow someone's land to be stolen, we should support the thieves,and not the victims?

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Some Friggin Guy


Esentially, what I'm asking is: was the location of Isreal chosen ONLY because of it's religious significance to the Jewish people?

Well, yes, in fact... and it goes back long before the Holocaust. From a League of Nations mandate, July 24, 1922:


The Council of the League of Nations

Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have agreed, for the purpose of giving effect to the provisions of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, to entrust to a Mandatory selected by the said Powers the administration of the territory of Palestine, which formerly belonged to the Turkish Empire, within such boundaries as may be fixed by them; and

Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country ; and

Whereas recognition has thereby been given to the historical connection of the Jewish people with Palestine and to the grounds for reconstituting their national home in that country; and

Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have selected His Britannic Majesty as the Mandatory for Palestine; and

Whereas the mandate in respect of Palestine has been formulated in the following terms and submitted to the Council of the League for approval; and...


Emphasis mine. Essentially it says the Jews were there at one time, have a connection to the area - and just as important to the current discussion - the land was Britain's to do with as it wished.

The Mandate for Palestine, 1922 (http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH00pr0)

[Zero]

Originally posted by Troll


Good question, though I think there may have been a turnaround in killings. I mean if you're killing my kind for a long period of time and now I'm in control, well, let's just say you better move real quick. Yeah, because 5th grade ethics is how adults should behave...someone hits me, so I'm gonna hit the next person I see, even if it isn't the person who hit me....

[Zero]

Originally posted by Jocko


*snip* the land was Britain's to do with as it wished.

The Mandate for Palestine, 1922 (http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/go.asp?MFAH00pr0) How much did the British pay for it?

[Troll]

Originally posted by Zero
So? If we vote to allow someone's land to be stolen, we should support the thieves,and not the victims?

Well it's nice to see you are neither a lawyer nor a thief as you seem to not understand the concept of either. The jews did not steal, it was given to them. For them to have stolen it would mean they would have taken it, either by force or given the voting in the UN, as part of the vote, which they didn't have since they weren't a country.

[Some Friggin Guy]

Originally posted by Troll


Good question, though I think there may have been a turnaround in killings. I mean if you're killing my kind for a long period of time and now I'm in control, well, let's just say you better move real quick.

YOu have a definite point, and we are, of course speaking hypothetically and in hindsight. I do think it would have been an easier situation for the world as a whole to contain.

I shouldn't even bother using the mental energy to think about this, since Ahriman knows, I need all the brainpower I can muster, but I can't help it.

Had Isreal (we'll stick with the name) been established in part of Germany, you would have a nation surrounded by others who may not be fans of the Jews, but also are not fans of the Germans, either. (This being shortly after WWII.) You would have the Soviets on one side, the US on the other, neither superpower wanting to have atrocities occur in their playground.

Compare this to what actually happened, where Isreal was established in an area that resisted both US-style democracy and Soviet-era communism, and there is no "mitigating hatred" towards another local group.

I have to be honest: I'm all for a Jewish state, as well as states specifically designated for any religion. I just think it was a major cock-up to put Isreal where they did.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Zero
How much did the British pay for it?

Now you're just being silly. How much did the Palestinians pay for it? It was Britain's to divide and allocate, and sanctioned by the League of Nations (and later the United Nations come 1947).

If your point is that life ain't fair, well... point taken, and so what? Empires crumble and people scramble for the fragments.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Troll


Well it's nice to see you are neither a lawyer nor a thief as you seem to not understand the concept of either. The jews did not steal, it was given to them. For them to have stolen it would mean they would have taken it, either by force or given the voting in the UN, as part of the vote, which they didn't have since they weren't a country. Wow, given to them by thieves, unless someone holds a deed to the land signed over by the people living there? I guess that makes it oh so much better.

[Some Friggin Guy]

Okay, you all post too fast in here. My question got answered while I was still asking it.

[Troll]

Originally posted by Zero
Yeah, because 5th grade ethics is how adults should behave...someone hits me, so I'm gonna hit the next person I see, even if it isn't the person who hit me....

well maybe you're still stuck in that grade. I didn't claim to hit the next guy. I said if you were doing it to me and now I'm in charge it's you that bette rmove real quick. Not some passerby/next person I see. You, the guy that was treating me badly. Are you up to date now?

[Zero]

Originally posted by Jocko


Now you're just being silly. How much did the Palestinians pay for it? It was Britain's to divide and allocate, and sanctioned by the League of Nations (and later the United Nations come 1947).

If your point is that life ain't fair, well... point taken, and so what? Empires crumble and people scramble for the fragments. How is it that it belonged to Britain? Did they pay for it?

So, life isn't fair...so, when I come and take all your things, you will just shrug your shoulders and say that 'life ain't fair', right? Since that is what you seem to expect the Palestinians to do?

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Some Friggin Guy

I have to be honest: I'm all for a Jewish state, as well as states specifically designated for any religion. I just think it was a major cock-up to put Isreal where they did.

If they'd asked me, I would have just given them Belgium and been done with it. Pre-established borders, ready-to-go infrastructure, and all those hash bars right next door in the Netherlands. Ah, what might have been...

[Troll]

Originally posted by Some Friggin Guy
Okay, you all post too fast in here. My question got answered while I was still asking it.

It's Zero's fault. He can't answer anything straight so he goes for mass posting to try to confuse a person. ;)

[Zero]

Originally posted by Troll


It's Zero's fault. He can't answer anything straight so he goes for mass posting to try to confuse a person. ;) That's funny, all I was doing was responding to your posts!!

[Troll]

Originally posted by Jocko


If they'd asked me, I would have just given them Belgium and been done with it. Pre-established borders, ready-to-go infrastructure, and all those hash bars right next door in the Netherlands. Ah, what might have been...

Hey, I'd have given them california. At this moment I seriously doubt Boxer and Fienstien (sp?) would have any influence over anyone in the world.

[Troll]

Originally posted by Zero
That's funny, all I was doing was responding to your posts!!

Responding? Maybe. Answering the question in my posts? Hardly:p

[Zero]

Originally posted by Troll


well maybe you're still stuck in that grade. I didn't claim to hit the next guy. I said if you were doing it to me and now I'm in charge it's you that bette rmove real quick. Not some passerby/next person I see. You, the guy that was treating me badly. Are you up to date now? So, you agree with the Palestinians striking back against the Israelis?

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Zero
How is it that it belonged to Britain? Did they pay for it?

So, life isn't fair...so, when I come and take all your things, you will just shrug your shoulders and say that 'life ain't fair', right? Since that is what you seem to expect the Palestinians to do?


Oh grow up, Zero. For someone who's complaining about others' "fifth grade ethics," you sure seem to believe there's some international fifth grade teacher for people to run to who can make everything right and fair and perfect. I'm not getting into this increasingly silly metaphor any more than that.

What would you say if the dinosaurs returned and demanded their land back? Or the indians who used to live in your state?

Life's not fair, and there's not a damned thing you can do about it.

However, when given the chance to make the best of a situation, that's something you CAN do something about.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Troll


Responding? Maybe. Answering the question in my posts? Hardly:p You not liking the answers doesn't mean I am not answering...I hardly think you are even trying, frankly, since you barely make sense at this point.

[Troll]

Originally posted by Zero
How is it that it belonged to Britain? Did they pay for it?

So, life isn't fair...so, when I come and take all your things, you will just shrug your shoulders and say that 'life ain't fair', right? Since that is what you seem to expect the Palestinians to do?

Not at all. I mean sure moving sucks, but sometimes you gotta move for the greater good of things. Now personally I'd have shelled out for the move and all and helped set up both states. But then we didn't have much time before the attacks began and cocked it al up.

To be honest, if I was Truman and this sort of crap went down on my watch, I'd have been giving Jordan, Egypt and Syria to the Palestinians after I kicked them out for trying to cock up what could have been done peacefully.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Jocko



Oh grow up, Zero. For someone who's complaining about others' "fifth grade ethics," you sure seem to believe there's some international fifth grade teacher for people to run to who can make everything right and fair and perfect. I'm not getting into this increasingly silly metaphor any more than that.

What would you say if the dinosaurs returned and demanded their land back? Or the indians who used to live in your state?

Life's not fair, and there's not a damned thing you can do about it.

However, when given the chance to make the best of a situation, that's something you CAN do something about. Good, so now make the best of the Israeli-Palestinian situation...would that include accpting the fact that the situation has been unfair from the start, and working from their. Or shall we pretend that Israelis are the 'chosen ones' who can do no wrong?

Come on, a practical, pragmatic solution
!!

[Troll]

Originally posted by Zero
Good, so now make the best of the Israeli-Palestinian situation...would that include accpting the fact that the situation has been unfair from the start, and working from their. Or shall we pretend that Israelis are the 'chosen ones' who can do no wrong?

Come on, a practical, pragmatic solution
!!

All it requires is no killing or attacking on either side for a period to show trust and good faith. Do you think both sides can manage that?

[Jocko]

Come to think about British mishandling of geography, how about Kasmir? That's got to be at least as big a problem as Israel... after all, BOTH sides have got the bomb over there.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Troll


Not at all. I mean sure moving sucks, but sometimes you gotta move for the greater good of things. Now personally I'd have shelled out for the move and all and helped set up both states. But then we didn't have much time before the attacks began and cocked it al up.

To be honest, if I was Truman and this sort of crap went down on my watch, I'd have been giving Jordan, Egypt and Syria to the Palestinians after I kicked them out for trying to cock up what could have been done peacefully. Ok, ok...so, really, we are agreeing on principle here...


...now, pretending we lived in a perfect world, don't you think a more solid and stable plan should have been worked out beforehand? One that really ensured that the Palestinians would have been as protected as the Israelis?

And, hey, if an invasion of Jordan and Syria was necessary, I'm absolutely behind it.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Jocko
Come to think about British mishandling of geography, how about Kasmir? That's got to be at least as big a problem as Israel... after all, BOTH sides have got the bomb over there. Jesus, don't even get me started...actually, that is probably a bigger problem than the Israeli thing...




...no Jews in Kasmir, though, no who cares?!?:(

[Troll]

Originally posted by Zero
You not liking the answers doesn't mean I am not answering...I hardly think you are even trying, frankly, since you barely make sense at this point.

You never answered. You kept asking and avoiding.

I'll ask again to show you.

AUP (who the original question was asked to, before you became Egypt, Syria, Jordan and others and spoke for him by attacking me with nonsense) accepts Israel's right to exist and have land but claims that the Israelis are occupying land not theirs. Whose land is it? Now I even answered the question earlier for you. But my money says you stuill ain't gonna give a straight answer.;)

[Zero]

Originally posted by Troll


All it requires is no killing or attacking on either side for a period to show trust and good faith. Do you think both sides can manage that? I think that there are very large numbers on both sides who want peace. Unfortunately, you have the Likud on one side, and the Palestinian terrorists on the other, both of whom keep they hold onto power by fear and hate...Extremists on both sides will likely try to sabotage efforts at peace.

[Troll]

Originally posted by Zero
Jesus, don't even get me started...actually, that is probably a bigger problem than the Israeli thing...




...no Jews in Kasmir, though, no who cares?!?:(

whoa. You think Kasmir is a bigger issue? I'm impressed. I have a question about that, but it's probably best for a thread of another topic.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Troll


You never answered. You kept asking and avoiding.

I'll ask again to show you.

AUP (who the original question was asked to, before you became Egypt, Syria, Jordan and others and spoke for him by attacking me with nonsense) accepts Israel's right to exist and have land but claims that the Israelis are occupying land not theirs. Whose land is it? Now I even answered the question earlier for you. But my money says you stuill ain't gonna give a straight answer.;) I gave you the answer, in about 5 different posts.

The land belongs to the people living on it before the Israeli settlements. Pretty obvious, when you consider how many homes have been bulldozed to make way for the settlements.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Zero
Good, so now make the best of the Israeli-Palestinian situation...would that include accpting the fact that the situation has been unfair from the start, and working from their. Or shall we pretend that Israelis are the 'chosen ones' who can do no wrong?

No one has said anyone was "chosen" for anyplace. I've posted a couple of relevant LoN documents that make the very reasonable declaration that Jews have a historical connection to Israel (had it been implemented correctly, which the Arabs screwed up).

I don't see how your declaring the situation unfair (a subjective call at best) is going to move anything forward. If anything, the obvious counter-argument is that the Palestinians have so badly mishandled their side of the deal - however much it sucked for them - that 1947 aside, their REAL problems stem from events and decisions SINCE then.

Come on, a practical, pragmatic solution
!!

The only practical, pragmatic solution is one side annihilating the other. But I don't think that's what we're after. The REAL solution will be messy, slow and disappoint a lot of people.

Coming to terms with that fact is more important for all concerned than coming to terms with what the defunct LoN said 80 years ago.

[Troll]

Originally posted by Zero
Ok, ok...so, really, we are agreeing on principle here...


...now, pretending we lived in a perfect world, don't you think a more solid and stable plan should have been worked out beforehand? One that really ensured that the Palestinians would have been as protected as the Israelis?

And, hey, if an invasion of Jordan and Syria was necessary, I'm absolutely behind it.

yeah but this was all done through the UN. How much of a plan did you expect to come from them?

[Zero]

Originally posted by Troll


whoa. You think Kasmir is a bigger issue? I'm impressed. I have a question about that, but it's probably best for a thread of another topic. Oh, certainly, since nukes aren't likely to be used against refugee camps. By all means start a new thread.

[Troll]

Originally posted by Jocko


The REAL solution will be messy, slow and disappoint a lot of people.


So Zero just needs to relate it to his own sex life in order to understand.:p

[Zero]

Originally posted by Troll


yeah but this was all done through the UN. How much of a plan did you expect to come from them? I don't know, since the U.S. was, even then, probably the most powerful member of the U.N.. Probably shouldn't expect much, huh?;)

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Zero
Jesus, don't even get me started...actually, that is probably a bigger problem than the Israeli thing...




...no Jews in Kasmir, though, no who cares?!?:(

Well, we only have alliances of convenience with both India and Pakistan, with no deep, long-term ties to either. Fortunately, those two seem to have settled into a relatively civilized game of tug-of-war (for the time being)... if the feces ever hit the fan, I suspect we would line up behind India.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Troll


So Zero just needs to relate it to his own sex life in order to understand.:p That's funny, your mom didn't seem to mind....

[Jocko]

Okay, "your momma" jokes are where I call it a night.

[Troll]

Originally posted by Zero
That's funny, your mom didn't seem to mind....

Dude, my mom's a trannie. But hey, whatever get's you off.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Jocko
Okay, "your momma" jokes are where I call it a night. Uh huh...

[Zero]

Originally posted by Troll


Dude, my mom's a trannie. But hey, whatever get's you off. I wondered why "she" was only into oral and anal...

[Some Friggin Guy]

Troll, Zero:

Allow me to play Switzerland for a sec.

The back and forth debate is cool and all, and even the insults as long as they're somehow on track.

Talking about the other's sex life and the mother jokes?


Come ON, guys! This is supposed to be a forum for intelligent debate. Leave the non-sequitor insults to fundementalist religious boards!

[Troll]

Originally posted by Zero
I wondered why "she" was only into oral and anal...

well so long as you pleased her orally and took it anally I know my momma was a happy semi-chick

[Zero]

ANYHOO....the point I was trying to make was that, while we all agree that suicide bombings are bad, we also cannot say that the Palestinians are angry for no reason at all, besides blind hatred for Jews in general.

Also, Troll's mom is a hermaphrodite.

[Troll]

Originally posted by Some Friggin Guy
Troll, Zero:

Allow me to play Switzerland for a sec.

The back and forth debate is cool and all, and even the insults as long as they're somehow on track.

Talking about the other's sex life and the mother jokes?


Come ON, guys! This is supposed to be a forum for intelligent debate. Leave the non-sequitor insults to fundementalist religious boards!

Yeah but we sorta already ran the gambit of intelligent converstaion and debate. we just need a little break before going into deep though again

[Some Friggin Guy]

Originally posted by Troll


Yeah but we sorta already ran the gambit of intelligent converstaion and debate. we just need a little break before going into deep though again

Good point. Carry on, then.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Troll


Yeah but we sorta already ran the gambit of intelligent converstaion and debate. we just need a little break before going into deep though again Ummm...not to play grammar police, but the word you are looking for is gamut, not gambit....I've seen you make that mistake at least once before this week, I think.


You can thank me later.:D

[Troll]

Originally posted by Zero
ANYHOO....the point I was trying to make was that, while we all agree that suicide bombings are bad, we also cannot say that the Palestinians are angry for no reason at all, besides blind hatred for Jews in general.

Also, Troll's mom is a hermaphrodite.

You know I still contend that other nations caused the rift. And they deepend the rift as well. Remember the Palestinians were living on land in their countries and there weren't suicide bombings. It was after those areas were lost to the Israelis who took land from the countries that attacked them, that the palestinians were completely homeless. They weren't allowed to move further inland in those respective countries

That's right. Fellow arabs refused to let them move further into their countries after losing the land they were living on in an atack they made.

[Troll]

Originally posted by Zero
Ummm...not to play grammar police, but the word you are looking for is gamut, not gambit....I've seen you make that mistake at least once before this week, I think.


You can thank me later.:D

I do, don't I? I think it's because of the freaking X-Men comics. Since debating with you is often painful to my sense of good taste I should say we ran the gauntlet and not have to worry about word usage. :p

[Zero]

Originally posted by Troll


You know I still contend that other nations caused the rift. And they deepend the rift as well. Remember the Palestinians were living on land in their countries and there weren't suicide bombings. It was after those areas were lost to the Israelis who took land from the countries that attacked them, that the palestinians were completely homeless. They weren't allowed to move further inland in those respective countries

That's right. Fellow arabs refused to let them move further into their countries after losing the land they were living on in an atack they made. I'm not saying for a moment that other Arab countries don't share in the blame...but at the same time, the Western counrties are not completely blameless either.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Troll


I do, don't I? I think it's because of the freaking X-Men comics. Since debating with you is often painful to my sense of good taste I should say we ran the gauntlet and not have to worry about word usage. :p Don't talk to me about good taste...you are the one who called your mom a hermaphrodite, not me...;)

[Troll]

Originally posted by Zero
Don't talk to me about good taste...you are the one who called your mom a hermaphrodite, not me...;)

and you should be ashamed for letting me talk about her that way. Well it's after 4am here and I need to try this sleep thing I've been reading about.

Later

[Zero]

Originally posted by Troll


and you should be ashamed for letting me talk about her that way. Well it's after 4am here and I need to try this sleep thing I've been reading about.

Later Groovy...let's start again tomorrow...;)

[Some Friggin Guy]

Originally posted by Zero
Don't talk to me about good taste...

Less filling?

[Zero]

Originally posted by Some Friggin Guy


Less filling? Nice try at humor, I think it is past your bedtime too?

[Some Friggin Guy]

I don't even get out of work for another 5 hours?

[Zero]

Originally posted by Some Friggin Guy
I don't even get out of work for another 5 hours? Yikes, you are so screwed!!!

[Troll]

Originally posted by Some Friggin Guy


Less filling?

Leave Zero's penis out of it. He has to hear that often enough as it is.:D

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Troll


You know I still contend that other nations caused the rift. And they deepend the rift as well. Remember the Palestinians were living on land in their countries and there weren't suicide bombings. It was after those areas were lost to the Israelis who took land from the countries that attacked them, that the palestinians were completely homeless. They weren't allowed to move further inland in those respective countries

That's right. Fellow arabs refused to let them move further into their countries after losing the land they were living on in an atack they made.

That's like saying after France lost to Germany, America should have let everyone move there from France. The Arabs are an ethnic type, not a bunch of Borgs. Israel's tactic after the 6 day way appears to have been to make the life of Palestinians so miserable, they want to leave.

Some countries that did let the Palestinians in as refugees kicked them out again. They did not like the way they were still trying to get Israel out of Palestine, which caused no end of trouble with Israel.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Troll


Leave Zero's penis out of it. He has to hear that often enough as it is.:D Only from your "mom"...ask her if I can have my watch back, ok? It sort of fell off, and, ummm...can she clean it off, too?

[Some Friggin Guy]

Originally posted by Zero
Yikes, you are so screwed!!!

Nah, just a borderline hebaphrenic.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Some Friggin Guy


Nah, just a borderline hebaphrenic. Hysterical giggling?

[Troll]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


That's like saying after France lost to Germany, America should have let everyone move there from France. The Arabs are an ethnic type, not a bunch of Borgs. Israel's tactic after the 6 day way appears to have been to make the life of Palestinians so miserable, they want to leave.

Some countries that did let the Palestinians in as refugees kicked them out again. They did not like the way they were still trying to get Israel out of Palestine, which caused no end of trouble with Israel.

No. It's like saying things may have been better had others not tried to off the Israelis and committed the attacks from the land they were letting Palestinians live on.

Now go watch the sci-fi channel and come back with new unsuitable analogies later.

[Some Friggin Guy]

Hysterical giggling?


That and extremly odd/foolish behaviour. Like that time I went hanggliding in the subway.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Some Friggin Guy



That and extremly odd/foolish behaviour. Like that time I went hanggliding in the subway. Well, I mean...it may have seemed like a good idea, after feeling your clothing slammed against your body when the cars passed by...but you had to know you would run out of gliding room pretty quickly, right?

[Some Friggin Guy]

Originally posted by Zero
Well, I mean...it may have seemed like a good idea, after feeling your clothing slammed against your body when the cars passed by...but you had to know you would run out of gliding room pretty quickly, right?

Yeah.













But I'd do it again in an instant!

[Zero]

And, jeez, we've lost sight of the original theme of this thread...


...which was Chinese guys sleeping with Natalie Portman, right?

[Some Friggin Guy]

Originally posted by Zero
And, jeez, we've lost sight of the original theme of this thread...


...which was Chinese guys sleeping with Natalie Portman, right?

Anyone have a link to that site?

[Cain]

Give me a moment to express my complete and utter surprise.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Some countries that did let the Palestinians in as refugees kicked them out again. They did not like the way they were still trying to get Israel out of Palestine, which caused no end of trouble with Israel.

Do you just make this stuff up?

I understand it's all very complex, but that's no excuse not to do any reading.

Palestinian-Arabs repaid Jordainian generosity by starting a civiil war and got their butts kicked for their trouble. When they were expelled from Jordan, they were offered refuge in Lebanon, where they prepetuated massacres that contributed greatly to the bloodshed in their muslim/christian civil war while trying to build up strength to attack Israel. It wasn't just waging war with Israel that made them unwelcome, it was waging war with their hosts.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by The Fool


No Arab Citizens in Israel?? where did that one come from?
I said Arabs don't have the same rights as jews . There is discrimination based on race when people attempt to obtain citizenship and there is discrimination, based on race thereafter.

http://www.canadiandimension.mb.ca/extra/d0801jh.htm

Israel's Parliament has passed a law preventing Palestinians who marry Israelis from living in Israel. The move was denounced by human rights organisations as racist, undemocratic and discriminatory.

http://us.oneworld.net/article/view/64819/1/

The "Nationality and Entry into Israel" law, which passed in the Knesset by a margin of 53 to 25, has been denounced as discriminatory and racist by human rights groups, pointing out that it violates multiples provisions of international human rights law.

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0390/9003010.htm

Since Israel is a state of, by, and for the Jewish people, the resources primarily benefit Jews. Arabs are taxed like Jews, but they do not have the same access to resources as Jews. The land held by the state may not be sold or leased to Arabs. Arab villages and farms do not get the same quality of services-electrical, water, and so on-as Jewish towns and farms. Arab farmers in Israel are not free to sell their produce directly to buyers outside the country. (Only threats of retaliation against Israeli products by the European Community persuaded the authorities to let Arabs in the occupied territories export directly.)



Ok let's take a look at those links.

The marriage law is not racist it's a security precaution since Arabs from other countries could marry Israelis.

The other link...well I don't even know what to make of it. It sounds like they are complaining that Palestinians in the occupied territories -- I'm going to go ahead and assume they mean Gaza and West Bank -- don't have the same rights as Israeli citizens. Wow, I am like so shocked by this. You mean a place in which they refuse all Israeli laws they complain when they don't have the benefits? Yes, completely shocked.

On the flip side, how many Jews are allowed to be involved with the Palestinian government and affairs?

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by the Fool
http://www.washington-report.org/ba...390/9003010.htm
Since Israel is a state of, by, and for the Jewish people, the resources primarily benefit Jews. Arabs are taxed like Jews, but they do not have the same access to resources as Jews. The land held by the state may not be sold or leased to Arabs. Arab villages and farms do not get the same quality of services-electrical, water, and so on-as Jewish towns and farms. Arab farmers in Israel are not free to sell their produce directly to buyers outside the country. (Only threats of retaliation against Israeli products by the European Community persuaded the authorities to let Arabs in the occupied territories export directly.)


Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Land law in Israel is weird. Most of it is owned by the state and leased to the citizenry on long-term leases. This is similar to land law in the states of Hawaii and Alaska within the United States. This is often turned into anti-Israeli propaganda, saying that Arabs cannot “buy” land within Israel. While true, it’s misleading. Jews and Christians are restricted in the same way. This is indicative of the quality of information to be had from the WRMEA website. Its purpose is to disseminate anti-Israeli propaganda.

The part about Israeli-Arabs not being able lease land is false. Recently some Israeli-Jews sued the state, accusing the state of favoritism towards Israeli-Arabs, who were able to lease land at a reduced rate due to some Israeli variation of affirmative action. They lost.

[Cleon]

Originally posted by Mycroft


Wrong, wrong, wrong.


Actually, you're way off, here.

Government-owned land in Israel is managed by the Israel Land Authority (ILA). 15% of the land in Israel, though, is controlled by the Jewish National Fund (JNF), a quasi-public quasi-private organization partially controlled by the World Zionist Organization. The JNF's bylaws prohibit selling or leasing land to non-Jews, period. Most of the rest of the land is controlled by the ILA. The JNF has, on behalf of the government, managed some of the ILA's land; currently about half of that 15% is government-owned, managed by the JNF.

Now, how much of the ILA's land is managed by the JNF has changed periodically. It used to be that JNF and ILA were virtually synonymous; the ILA was essentially controlled by the JNF and operated under JNF rules (including the discriminatory clauses). Over the past twenty years, as Palestinian labor became more integrated with the Israeli economy, the policies became self-defeating and ILA moved away from JNF regulations (though I think some remain on the books, they're very rarely enforced).

[Mycroft]

Thank you, Cleon. I think for the sake of this discussion the relevant fact is that in Israel, Israeli-Arabs can and do lease land. While the legal details may seem Byzantine by someone else’s standards, that’s true of the laws of many nations.

[Cleon]

Originally posted by Mycroft
Thank you, Cleon. I think for the sake of this discussion the relevant fact is that in Israel, Israeli-Arabs can and do lease land. While the legal details may seem Byzantine by someone else’s standards, that’s true of the laws of many nations.

Well, that depends; I would say that a just-as-relevant fact is that the JNF's blatantly discriminatory policy has government backing. Sure, Arab Israeli citizens can lease land, but then, under Jim Crow blacks could lease land, too. They were just limited as to which land they could lease.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Cleon


Well, that depends; I would say that a just-as-relevant fact is that the JNF's blatantly discriminatory policy has government backing. Sure, Arab Israeli citizens can lease land, but then, under Jim Crow blacks could lease land, too. They were just limited as to which land they could lease.

Yes, an interesting comparison. Is there any indication what land is (technically) Jew-only turf? Is it in one area, or distributed? How is it used by those who do lease it?

I mean, if it's something comparable to government or military contractors dedicated to government work, or national wildlife areas (if they have such things), then it may be comparable to the American concept of eminent domain. But if it's more like a real estate investor managing residential or commercial property, then yeah, that sounds discriminatory whether they enforce it or not.

I'll see if I can find any answers to these... unless Cleon could sve me the trouble...? ;)

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Grammatron



Ok let's take a look at those links.

The marriage law is not racist it's a security precaution since Arabs from other countries could marry Israelis.

Are you serious? Its not racist, just written to exclude one race?


The other link...well I don't even know what to make of it. It sounds like they are complaining that Palestinians in the occupied territories -- I'm going to go ahead and assume they mean Gaza and West Bank -- don't have the same rights as Israeli citizens. Wow, I am like so shocked by this. You mean a place in which they refuse all Israeli laws they complain when they don't have the benefits? Yes, completely shocked.

No, its talking about various rights that israeli citizens do not have if they are arabs...simple as that. You can whistle a happy tune and look the other way, that still won't make these laws disappear.



On the flip side, how many Jews are allowed to be involved with the Palestinian government and affairs?

I would imagine there are none....the old "someone else is just as bad as us therefore what we do is fine"?

[Cleon]

Originally posted by Jocko


Yes, an interesting comparison. Is there any indication what land is (technically) Jew-only turf? Is it in one area, or distributed? How is it used by those who do lease it?

I mean, if it's something comparable to government or military contractors dedicated to government work, or national wildlife areas (if they have such things), then it may be comparable to the American concept of eminent domain. But if it's more like a real estate investor managing residential or commercial property, then yeah, that sounds discriminatory whether they enforce it or not.

I'll see if I can find any answers to these... unless Cleon could sve me the trouble...? ;)

Heh. :)

Well, the JNF was established as a fundraising arm of the WZO back around the turn of the century; it was set up to buy land in Palestine for Jews to move there. That's essentially what it does now; though they're involved in some environmental-type stuff ("Trees for Israel," some wildlife preserves, etc) the JNF's main goal is fostering Jewish immigration and developing land for that purpose. The kibbutzim (Jewish communes), for example, were established largely through JNF funds.

As far as I know, the land that it controls is explicitely for the purpose of development; real estate (primarily for Jewish immigration to Israel), farmland, etc. The "Trees for Israel" program that I used to collect for as a kid all go through the JNF.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Cleon


Well, that depends; I would say that a just-as-relevant fact is that the JNF's blatantly discriminatory policy has government backing. Sure, Arab Israeli citizens can lease land, but then, under Jim Crow blacks could lease land, too. They were just limited as to which land they could lease.

Thank you Cleon, for a little straight talking. I find it ridiculous that there appear to be non-Jews who are trying to be more Jewish than the Jews in their indiscriminate support for Israel.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by The Fool
Are you serious? Its not racist, just written to exclude one race?


I don't know if you are stupid or have a learning disability but you keep using a word that has nothing to do with a situation. Let me give you an example.

If there was a law that said people who are in Queensland can't merry people who are in New South Wales would that be racist? Please answer with a yes or no.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Cleon


Heh. :)

Well, the JNF was established as a fundraising arm of the WZO back around the turn of the century; it was set up to buy land in Palestine for Jews to move there. That's essentially what it does now; though they're involved in some environmental-type stuff ("Trees for Israel," some wildlife preserves, etc) the JNF's main goal is fostering Jewish immigration and developing land for that purpose. The kibbutzim (Jewish communes), for example, were established largely through JNF funds.

As far as I know, the land that it controls is explicitely for the purpose of development; real estate (primarily for Jewish immigration to Israel), farmland, etc. The "Trees for Israel" program that I used to collect for as a kid all go through the JNF.

So if it's a private concern, as I seem to read from this, it's no more discriminatory than, say, mixed income housing here in the states which is directed by quotas of race and income level. A lot of those developments are privately owned but receive government subsidies (like chapter 8 funds, etc.)

Still kind of a gray area though.... there AND here.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Grammatron


I don't know if you are stupid or have a learning disability but you keep using a word that has nothing to do with a situation. Let me give you an example.

If there was a law that said people who are in Queensland can't merry people who are in New South Wales would that be racist? Please answer with a yes or no.

No..but if the law did not mention queenslanders or New South Welsman...but instead it refered to Arabs?Can you spot the difference or am I wasting my time? The law has nothing to do with where the person comes from....Nothing at all, and you know it. It specifically targets Arabs ...It is racist, Everyone in the world (even many Israelis) understands this except, it seems, for Zionists and thier apologists.

I fear there is little point in going much further down the track of attempting to discuss Racism in the middle east and the role it plays in perpetuating the conflict. As long as there are apologists who are prepared to go to any lengths to imagine that Israelis are somehow divinely excempt from Racism. People who can see discrimination on the basis of race formally written in law and yet still stay in denial.....Its breathtaking

[Cleon]

Originally posted by Jocko


So if it's a private concern, as I seem to read from this, it's no more discriminatory than, say, mixed income housing here in the states which is directed by quotas of race and income level. A lot of those developments are privately owned but receive government subsidies (like chapter 8 funds, etc.)

Still kind of a gray area though.... there AND here.

Well, it's quite discriminatory. I'm not getting into the affirmative action thing. Suppose the US government said, "since our goals and the KKK's are the same, we're going to give them eight states to manage by their rules." That's an extreme example, but it's the kind of thing I mean; the JNF is basically a state-sponsored property manager, who operates under a racist set of guidelines.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Cleon


Well, it's quite discriminatory. I'm not getting into the affirmative action thing. Suppose the US government said, "since our goals and the KKK's are the same, we're going to give them eight states to manage by their rules." That's an extreme example, but it's the kind of thing I mean; the JNF is basically a state-sponsored property manager, who operates under a racist set of guidelines.
Thanks for the input Cleon. Fortunately you have not been involved in most of the past head chewing sessions that accompany Israeli-Palestinian debate. It is safe to assume that Jocko, Grammatron and I do not swap Christmas cards... I am often accused of making too much of the issue of Racism. Because I feel it is at the heart of the ongoing middle east Tragedy I must continue to harp on it.

Many many Israelis have a deep racist hatred of Arabs and Palestinians in particular. Thier government enshrines this racism in legislation. Many Many Arabs, Palestinians in particular, have a deep racist hatred of Jews. Thier Governments also enshrine this racism in legislation.

To me, the first step in ever having the slightest chance of ending this tragedy is the removal of this legislation by International pressure. The second step is forcing each party to recognise the racism in thier own position. As long as both sides see this as "The civilised V the Savage" It will never end. Right now if you were to take Israeli children and palestinian children they would play together in harmony...wtf is wrong with the adults?

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by The Fool

Thanks for the input Cleon. Fortunately you have not been involved in most of the past head chewing sessions that accompany Israeli-Palestinian debate. It is safe to assume that Jocko, Grammatron and I do not swap Christmas cards... I am often accused of making too much of the issue of Racism. Because I feel it is at the heart of the ongoing middle east Tragedy I must continue to harp on it.

Many many Israelis have a deep racist hatred of Arabs and Palestinians in particular. Thier government enshrines this racism in legislation. Many Many Arabs, Palestinians in particular, have a deep racist hatred of Jews. Thier Governments also enshrine this racism in legislation.

To me, the first step in ever having the slightest chance of ending this tragedy is the removal of this legislation by International pressure. The second step is forcing each party to recognise the racism in thier own position. As long as both sides see this as "The civilised V the Savage" It will never end. Right now if you were to take Israeli children and palestinian children they would play together in harmony...wtf is wrong with the adults?

Now I know why you are called "Fool". As the Steely Dan song says, "Only a Fool would say that".

[The Fool]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


Now I know why you are called "Fool". As the Steely Dan song says, "Only a Fool would say that".

A_U_P...we should not be seen talking. It might trigger a conspiracy theory.

steely Dan? You are showing your age;)

A world become one
Of salads and sun
Only a fool would say that
A boy with a plan
A natural man
Wearing a white stetson hat
Unhand that gun begone
There's no one to fire upon
If he's holding it high
He's telling a lie

CHORUS:
I heard it was you
Talkin' 'bout a world
Where all is free
It just couldn't be
And only a fool would say that

The man in the street
Draggin' his feet
Don't wanna hear the bad news
Imagine your face
There is his place
Standing inside his brown shoes
You do his nine to five
Drag yourself home half alive
And there on the screen
A man with a dream

CHORUS

Anybody on the street
Has murder in his eyes
You feel no pain
And you're younger
Then you realize

...Steely Dan.

[Cleon]

Originally posted by The Fool

Thanks for the input Cleon. Fortunately you have not been involved in most of the past head chewing sessions that accompany Israeli-Palestinian debate. It is safe to assume that Jocko, Grammatron and I do not swap Christmas cards... I am often accused of making too much of the issue of Racism. Because I feel it is at the heart of the ongoing middle east Tragedy I must continue to harp on it.

I started to get involved when I first signed on to the board, but quickly grew tired of it. It's just not worth the time; I got sick of people searching for reasons to call me anti-Semitic.

I am not a Zionist. I am, however, Jewish. My positions--for those oh-so-anti-semitic ideas of peace, justice, and equality--don't presuppose the absolute necessity of a state run by and for a particular ethnicity/religion.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by The Fool


No..but if the law did not mention queenslanders or New South Welsman...but instead it refered to Arabs?Can you spot the difference or am I wasting my time? The law has nothing to do with where the person comes from....Nothing at all, and you know it. It specifically targets Arabs ...It is racist, Everyone in the world (even many Israelis) understands this except, it seems, for Zionists and thier apologists.

I fear there is little point in going much further down the track of attempting to discuss Racism in the middle east and the role it plays in perpetuating the conflict. As long as there are apologists who are prepared to go to any lengths to imagine that Israelis are somehow divinely excempt from Racism. People who can see discrimination on the basis of race formally written in law and yet still stay in denial.....Its breathtaking

Nowhere in the link you provided me did it refer, in regards with the marriage law, specifically to Palestinians being Arabs. It only stated that if an Israeli would marry a Palestinian, that Palestinian would not be granted Israeli citizenship. You yourself stated that such a law -- that discriminated based on where you live -- is not racist, so thank you for agreeing with me.

I'm not being an Israeli apologist. There are many things the state of Israeli is doing wrong. Settlements and the way the wall being built is one of them. However, the only difference I find here is that I believe Israel is willing to sacrifice those projects for peace, I don't see any movement in Palestine toward peace process. When I see Palestine make concessions and Israel ignoring them and invading anyway, I will support Palestine until then you know where I stand.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Grammatron


Nowhere in the link you provided me did it refer, in regards with the marriage law, specifically to Palestinians being Arabs. It only stated that if an Israeli would marry a Palestinian, that Palestinian would not be granted Israeli citizenship. You yourself stated that such a law -- that discriminated based on where you live -- is not racist, so thank you for agreeing with me.

I'm not being an Israeli apologist. There are many things the state of Israeli is doing wrong. Settlements and the way the wall being built is one of them. However, the only difference I find here is that I believe Israel is willing to sacrifice those projects for peace, I don't see any movement in Palestine toward peace process. When I see Palestine make concessions and Israel ignoring them and invading anyway, I will support Palestine until then you know where I stand.

Nit pick, hair split fog and mirrors...anything to avoid opening your eyes and taking your finger out of your ears eh?
Is there any limit to the illogical pretzel twisting you will do to avoid reality? This law is designed to prevent palestinians from gaining citizenship.... Now using your logic all the Isrealis born in west bank settlements are palestinian and any palestinians born in Israel are Israeli...how wrong can you possibly be? This law has nothing to do with where you were born it has plenty to do with your ethnicity. You are not stupid, you know this as well as I do....

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by The Fool


Nit pick, hair split fog and mirrors...anything to avoid opening your eyes and taking your finger out of your ears eh?
Is there any limit to the illogical pretzel twisting you will do to avoid reality? This law is designed to prevent palestinians from gaining citizenship.... Now using your logic all the Isrealis born in west bank settlements are palestinian and any palestinians born in Israel are Israeli...how wrong can you possibly be? This law has nothing to do with where you were born it has plenty to do with your ethnicity. You are not stupid, you know this as well as I do....

Perhaps you can provide me with the exact wording of the law, but until then the only information I have is that a Palestinian -- which I am going to assume is anyone who resides in West Bank and/or Gaza -- can't gain Israeli citizenship through marriage. Thus, this law is not racist but terrirotirists (Yes I just made up this word) and you yourself said it's not a problem.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by The Fool
Nit pick, hair split fog and mirrors...anything to avoid opening your eyes and taking your finger out of your ears eh?
Is there any limit to the illogical pretzel twisting you will do to avoid reality? This law is designed to prevent palestinians from gaining citizenship....

The law is designed to prevent Palestinian-Arabs from gaining citizenship. So what?

Israel has a problem. That problem is terrorism. The terrorism is comming from the Palestinian-Arabs. Some of these Palestinian-Arabs were gaining access to Israel by marrying Israeli-Arabs, and then conducting terrorist actions once inside.

Do you have a problem with Israel stopping this?

[The Fool]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mycroft


The law is designed to prevent Palestinian-Arabs from gaining citizenship. So what?


thats fine by me, If you have no problems with racism thats your choice. At least you don't just look the other way and imagine an alternate reality like Grammatron.


Do you have a problem with Israel stopping this?


Of course I don't have any problem at all with Israel trying to stop this....The silly "don't marry Arabs" business certainly does not seem to have worked. Maybe they could set up an agency to evaluate citizenship requests and cull out the ones that are suspected terrorists...of course, this is not required when being an Arab is enough to be regarded as a suspected terrorist is it? Should Britain ban Irish from getting citizenship because we know all Irish are potential IRA terrorists? The whole Idea of these laws is just too silly for words.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal...."

How can America and Americans who hold values like these so dearly blindly support this garbage?

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Mycroft


The law is designed to prevent Palestinian-Arabs from gaining citizenship. So what?

Israel has a problem. That problem is terrorism. The terrorism is comming from the Palestinian-Arabs. Some of these Palestinian-Arabs were gaining access to Israel by marrying Israeli-Arabs, and then conducting terrorist actions once inside.

Do you have a problem with Israel stopping this?

I would suggest that the US summarily expel all Arabs on it's soil and imprison the rest. There were Arabs involved in 9/11.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Mycroft


The law is designed to prevent Palestinian-Arabs from gaining citizenship. So what?

Israel has a problem. That problem is terrorism. The terrorism is comming from the Palestinian-Arabs. Some of these Palestinian-Arabs were gaining access to Israel by marrying Israeli-Arabs, and then conducting terrorist actions once inside.

Do you have a problem with Israel stopping this?

The way you worded the law is racist, however, I could not find any news articles that agree with that. Everything I found mentions just Palestinians.
Originally posted by The Fool


thats fine by me, If you have no problems with racism thats your choice. At least you don't just look the other way and imagine an alternate reality like Grammatron.

No, I work on this radical principal called "Looking at facts" the facts I am presented with do not support the claim of the policy being racist. If, like I already stated, you show me the phrasing of the law that specifically targets Palestinian-Arabs I will concede that you are correct and the law is indeed racist. I am still waiting for proof.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Grammatron


The way you worded the law is racist, however, I could not find any news articles that agree with that. Everything I found mentions just Palestinians.


No, I work on this radical principal called "Looking at facts" the facts I am presented with do not support the claim of the policy being racist. If, like I already stated, you show me the phrasing of the law that specifically targets Palestinian-Arabs I will concede that you are correct and the law is indeed racist. I am still waiting for proof.

yes I see your point, this law is unfair to many non Arab Palestinians You should write to Sharon, as I can see a huge flood of protests from the huge numbers of Scandinavian Palestinians, Asian Palestinians, Aboriginal Australian Palestinians and Native American palestinians flooding through.... Hang on, I forgot the Melanesian and Polynesian Palestinians....Can't ignore the pacific rim branch of the Palestinian Nation. And then there's the large welsh population of Hebron to consider.... Why should all these branches of the multiracial palestinian population be disadvantaged just because of the few Palestinians that are apparently arabs......Lol, this takes the cake....

I never thought in a million years that somebody would try to ask for proof that Palestinians are Arabs in order to delay a losing argument.....whats next? Arguing if the Pope is really catholic. Congratulations, the best straw clutch I've seen for a long long time.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by Grammatron
The way you worded the law is racist, however, I could not find any news articles that agree with that. Everything I found mentions just Palestinians.


I actually have no idea how the law is worded. It is, howver, my opinion that even if the wording is as racist as it's made out to be, it's still reasonable for a country to restrict immigration from a population they are involved in armed conflict with.

Originally posted by a_unique_person I would suggest that the US summarily expel all Arabs on it's soil and imprison the rest. There were Arabs involved in 9/11.

And that fact is not lost on our state department.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by The Fool


yes I see your point, this law is unfair to many non Arab Palestinians You should write to Sharon, as I can see a huge flood of protests from the huge numbers of Scandinavian Palestinians, Asian Palestinians, Aboriginal Australian Palestinians and Native American palestinians flooding through.... Hang on, I forgot the Melanesian and Polynesian Palestinians....Can't ignore the pacific rim branch of the Palestinian Nation. And then there's the large welsh population of Hebron to consider.... Why should all these branches of the multiracial palestinian population be disadvantaged just because of the few Palestinians that are apparently arabs......Lol, this takes the cake....

I never thought in a million years that somebody would try to ask for proof that Palestinians are Arabs in order to delay a losing argument.....whats next? Arguing if the Pope is really catholic. Congratulations, the best straw clutch I've seen for a long long time.

You can call it whatever you want but one thing it's not is racist.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Grammatron


You can call it whatever you want but one thing it's not is racist.
A true believer to the end.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by The Fool

A true believer to the end.

You know Fool, I tried being diplomatic with you but you seem to be allergic to facts and reality. Maybe in some fantasy world it would be nice if everyone respected each other and played by some magical rules that could never be broken. Here in the real world Hamas blows up a market in the morning and complains they are being discriminated against in the evening. The more you and AUP post the more I understand people like Skeptic who are driven so far to extreme of a viewpoint and don't see the gray "Everyone who is not a soldier is innocent forever" area you and others like you live in.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Grammatron


You know Fool, I tried being diplomatic with you but you seem to be allergic to facts and reality. Maybe in some fantasy world it would be nice if everyone respected each other and played by some magical rules that could never be broken. Here in the real world Hamas blows up a market in the morning and complains they are being discriminated against in the evening. The more you and AUP post the more I understand people like Skeptic who are driven so far to extreme of a viewpoint and don't see the gray "Everyone who is not a soldier is innocent forever" area you and others like you live in.
And you are helping by denying the obvious? You cannot tell me you can look at that law with a straight face and say it is not Racist.... It could serve as a definition of racism.

When Hamas commits acts of terrorism persecute hammas don't persecute the palestinians. If Hamas was from LA would you accept being discriminated against as being reasonable, after all, the Terrorists come from the same place as you, they are the same race and nationality.... And its not hamas complaining about being discriminated against in the afternoon or any other time, its just some Arabs trying to live a reasonable life in a madhouse.

"everyone who is not a soldier is innocent forever"? thats an interesting take on my position.... My position is quite consistant, its called "innocent until proven guilty" its quite a common position among reasonable people.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by The Fool

And you are helping by denying the obvious? You cannot tell me you can look at that law with a straight face and say it is not Racist.... It could serve as a definition of racism.

When Hamas commits acts of terrorism persecute hammas don't persecute the palestinians. If Hamas was from LA would you accept being discriminated against as being reasonable, after all, the Terrorists come from the same place as you, they are the same race and nationality.... And its not hamas complaining about being discriminated against in the afternoon or any other time, its just some Arabs trying to live a reasonable life in a madhouse.

"everyone who is not a soldier is innocent forever"? thats an interesting take on my position.... My position is quite consistant, its called "innocent until proven guilty" its quite a common position among reasonable people.

It's not racist, just like putting tough restrictions on Mexico for imports and passage into USA is not racist against Mexicans either. It's an indirect way to say, "Hey, your country needs to deal with its security or don't bother coming here." Palestine appears to have little to no interest in going after its terrorist groups. So guess what? They are going to find it much tougher or near impossible to obtain Israeli citizenship or visit the country, wow what a gdamn shock that is.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by The Fool
...If Hamas was from LA would you accept being discriminated against as being reasonable, after all, the Terrorists come from the same place as you, they are the same race and nationality....


Hypothetically, yeah.

If US citizens were traveling to Canada and killing people there, I would completely understand if Canada wanted to seal the borders, including not granting citizenship to US citizens who married Canadians.

If under these circumstances I wanted to marry a Canadian citizen, I would understand that we couldn't live together in Canada. We would have to either live together in the States, or delay our marriage.

Race doesn’t really have anything to do with it. The issue is terrorism.

It’s too bad that the realities of religion and politics interfere with our freedoms to do what we want, but when people are willing to kill and die over religion, when ethnic groups are at war, it’s absurd to pretend that these issues don’t matter.

When your desire to embrace multi-culturalism requires that you let people die, it's time to re-think your values.

[The idea]

An Israeli company has required thousands of Chinese workers to sign a contract promising not to have sex with Israelis or try to convert them, a police spokesman said today.

Convert them to what? Confucianism?

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Grammatron


It's not racist, just like putting tough restrictions on Mexico for imports and passage into USA is not racist against Mexicans either. It's an indirect way to say, "Hey, your country needs to deal with its security or don't bother coming here." Palestine appears to have little to no interest in going after its terrorist groups. So guess what? They are going to find it much tougher or near impossible to obtain Israeli citizenship or visit the country, wow what a gdamn shock that is.

No your citizenship and entry requirements are not racist against mexicans....Do you know if there are higher levels of restrictions on mexicans entry into the US or becoming US Citizens than any other Nationality? Hint: answer begins with N. Do you follow?? No difference = not racist. Difference based on race = racist. why is that so hard to understand? "All men are created equal" is a powerful and noble principle but its out the window if it gets in the way of total unquestioning support for anything Sharon does.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Mycroft



Hypothetically, yeah.

If US citizens were traveling to Canada and killing people there, I would completely understand if Canada wanted to seal the borders, including not granting citizenship to US citizens who married Canadians.

If under these circumstances I wanted to marry a Canadian citizen, I would understand that we couldn't live together in Canada. We would have to either live together in the States, or delay our marriage.

Race doesn’t really have anything to do with it. The issue is terrorism.

It’s too bad that the realities of religion and politics interfere with our freedoms to do what we want, but when people are willing to kill and die over religion, when ethnic groups are at war, it’s absurd to pretend that these issues don’t matter.

When your desire to embrace multi-culturalism requires that you let people die, it's time to re-think your values.

But Israel doesn't want to "seal the borders" do they? They are quite happy for Palestinians to flow backwards and forwards to provide labor... The issue is racial purity, The Israelis, smack in the middle of the worlds Arab population do not want these Arabs interbreeding with The pure stock... Well I have News for Israel, you cannot keep the races apart, thats been tried before. The prospect of Jews becoming a minority in Israel is intollerable. There is only one way to prevent it. A racist Apartheid Nation. Welcome to The New Israel, Is that what you want?.......... Democracy will only be allowed as long as the majority are the "Chosen ones"? This sort of "purity of the people" stuff is scary, its what jews fled in the first place.....

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by The Fool


No your citizenship and entry requirements are not racist against mexicans....Do you know if there are higher levels of restrictions on mexicans entry into the US or becoming US Citizens than any other Nationality? Hint: answer begins with N. Do you follow?? No difference = not racist. Difference based on race = racist. why is that so hard to understand? "All men are created equal" is a powerful and noble principle but its out the window if it gets in the way of total unquestioning support for anything Sharon does.

Actually the answer begins with an Y as in YES. Canadians/American/English/German have different restrictions on entry -- granted I do not know about marriage -- than Mexicans. I bet Australia has similar laws when it comes to Canadians/American/English/German visitors compared to those from...oh I don't know Afghanistan. You can go ahead and start protest against your "racist" government right now.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Grammatron


Actually the answer begins with an Y as in YES. Canadians/American/English/German have different restrictions on entry -- granted I do not know about marriage -- than Mexicans. I bet Australia has similar laws when it comes to Canadians/American/English/German visitors compared to those from...oh I don't know Afghanistan. You can go ahead and start protest against your "racist" government right now.

actually, I do protest about my Racist government... Our Racist laws are a little bit more sneaky than Israels, man...could they learn from our guys. In Australia how you are treated depends on how you arrive..If by jet you remain free until processed, If by boat you are imprisoned. Cool Idea eh? We get to imprison all the smelly Arabs without having to admit its because they are Arabs...


When you mention different restrictions on entry are you sure you are not just referring to differing levels of security to prevent illegal entry? That is not the issue... If a Mexican applies for Citizenship is the requirements different than any other nationality? I can find no examples in any US law that says the rules for mexicans are....The rules for others are.... I Imagine, under your constitution, such laws would be very difficult to put in place.