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View Full Version : George Friedman's definition of "civilized"


Mark6
25th October 2009, 07:10 PM
I just skimmed The Next 100 Years: A Forecast for the 21st Century (http://www.amazon.com/Next-100-Years-Forecast-Century/dp/038551705X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1256518534&sr=1-1). Overall, my impression is that George Friedman is full of it, but one passage intrigues me. He divides all nations into Barbaric, Civilized, and Decadent. Quoting from memory:

"Barbaric society is convinced of its own moral superiority, and frequently believes that God is on its side. A Barbarian either fears, despises, or pities anyone who holds different views. [Friedman consider US a Barbaric society by that definition, although goes out of his way to point out it is a purely descriptive term, and not a pejorative one.]

Decadent society does not believe in anything. To a Decadent, all morals are relative, and no worldview is particularly better or worse than another. If there is anyone a Decadent despises, it is someone who believes in some kind of absolute.

Civilized society is the most rare. A Civilized man believes that there are moral absolutes, and that his own society more or less approximates them, but is willing to accept that he might be wrong, and to re-examine his own beliefs. Such condition is inherently unstable. A slight rise in self-righteousness would feed back on itself and cause a slide to Barbarism, while a slight rise in self-doubt would also feed back on itself and cause a slide to Decadence. Thus, Civilization is always a fleeting thing.

Barbaric societies are all too willing to pick fights, often ones they cannot possibly win. Decadent societies are unwilling to fight, even to defend themselves from a clear danger. Civilized societies fight selectively and efficiently."

Oddly enough, George Friedman gives no example of society "civilized" by his own definition. At least not in the parts of the book I read. I guess they are so fleeting, that you blink and miss them :) Seriously, can anyone suggest an example of society as a whole which has moral ideals yet is willing to allow its ideals may be wrong?

theprestige
26th October 2009, 05:25 PM
It all sounds like the kind of reasoning that a Decadent person would come up with.

geni
26th October 2009, 05:34 PM
Seriously, can anyone suggest an example of society as a whole which has moral ideals yet is willing to allow its ideals may be wrong?

Switzerland would probably come closest. You'd need to look for countries with solid popularly supported constitutions that change them from time to time.

Republic of Ireland might qualify if it was a bit more militant. Germany these days (it's certianly prepared to defend itself).

Simon39759
26th October 2009, 07:41 PM
I am pretty sure that just about all of Western Europe will be defined as decadent.

Depending of your views; Israel might qualify as either Barbaric or Civilized, I guess.

Tsukasa Buddha
26th October 2009, 08:17 PM
Sounds like loads of fluffy, unable to measure, bunk to me.

And the idea that a country could even have "moral ideals yet be willing to allow its ideals may be wrong" is a bit silly. It is taking ideas that apply to individuals and then labelling entire societies with them.

Jontg
26th October 2009, 10:27 PM
Sounds like something out of turn-of-the-century science fiction. By which I mean silly, pointlessly ephemeral, and obviously designed to flatter the ego of a very specific class of person.

Jeff Corey
26th October 2009, 10:28 PM
Agreed. A load of bollocks.

Mark6
27th October 2009, 05:37 AM
Sounds like loads of fluffy, unable to measure, bunk to me.

And the idea that a country could even have "moral ideals yet be willing to allow its ideals may be wrong" is a bit silly. It is taking ideas that apply to individuals and then labelling entire societies with them.
Well, I did say George Friedman was full of it :D I was wondering if there wer something to it, though.

NoZed Avenger
27th October 2009, 08:26 AM
I may not be giving it enough consideration to give it a fair shake, but a brief skim leaves me with the impression that the concept is just as valid as Astrology. Except it only has 3 categories, instead of 12.