Truthers and anti-Semitism

[CHF]

By now we're all familiar with the well-documented Jew haters in the truther ranks like the American Free Press, Christopher Bollyn, Eric Hufschmid, and those who spread the story about how 4,000 Jews didn't show up to work at the WTC on 9/11.

While the reaction of most truthers is to dismiss these people as crackpots, racists or "disinfo" (unless you're DR Griffin in which case you quote them in your books), it's hard to see why truthers are so quick to throw these people overboard.

I mean given what truthers believe, how can they NOT suspect the Jews?

The essence of most conspiracy theories is that there is a small group of powerful people who manipulate world events in order to:

- make money
- kill people
- plunge the world into war and chaos
- unite the world under a single flag
- all of the above

Now consider the fact that Jews are a relatively small group of people (15 million worldwide) who tend to place great emphasis on education and person success.

This has resulted in Jews being a very academic, educated, successful and organized people. They are disproportionately represented in fields like business, finance, banking, politics, science, academia, entertainment, media etc. - every field that you'd need in order to influence world events and pull off some vast diabolical plot.

Seriously - the Jews embody everything that a conspiracy calls for!

With such positions of influence in so many fields, it's no wonder why conspiracy theorists have been "connecting the dots" for centuries and blaming the Jews for all that goes wrong in the world.

I've personally talked to truthers who rant against the Rothschilds, "the bankers," and "the elites" but when asked to define "them" there's an awkward silence. It's as if we both know what he wants to say, but he knows how bad it sounds.

The well-known Jew-haters in the TM aren't some sort of abberation or fringe group. Their beliefs are the logical outcome of the twisted mindset that truthers have.

[9/11 Chewy Defense]

That just about sums it all up. Thanks CHF!

[Brainache]

I've said it before, I'll say it again: Why is no one blaming the Chinese Baptists? They're a sneaky bunch I tell ya!

[TheBigKahuna]

Now one of the favorite new tactics is to call it Zionism and claim it's not anti-Semitic. They're still racist scum when they make those claims.

[Algebra34]

By now we're all familiar with the well-documented Jew haters in the truther ranks like the American Free Press, Christopher Bollyn, Eric Hufschmid, and those who spread the story about how 4,000 Jews didn't show up to work at the WTC on 9/11.

While the reaction of most truthers is to dismiss these people as crackpots, racists or "disinfo" (unless you're DR Griffin in which case you quote them in your books), it's hard to see why truthers are so quick to throw these people overboard.

I mean given what truthers believe, how can they NOT suspect the Jews?

The essence of most conspiracy theories is that there is a small group of powerful people who manipulate world events in order to:

- make money
- kill people
- plunge the world into war and chaos
- unite the world under a single flag
- all of the above

Now consider the fact that Jews are a relatively small group of people (15 million worldwide) who tend to place great emphasis on education and person success.

This has resulted in Jews being a very academic, educated, successful and organized people. They are disproportionately represented in fields like business, finance, banking, politics, science, academia, entertainment, media etc. - every field that you'd need in order to influence world events and pull off some vast diabolical plot.

Seriously - the Jews embody everything that a conspiracy calls for!

With such positions of influence in so many fields, it's no wonder why conspiracy theorists have been "connecting the dots" for centuries and blaming the Jews for all that goes wrong in the world.

I've personally talked to truthers who rant against the Rothschilds, "the bankers," and "the elites" but when asked to define "them" there's an awkward silence. It's as if we both know what he wants to say, but he knows how bad it sounds.

The well-known Jew-haters in the TM aren't some sort of abberation or fringe group. Their beliefs are the logical outcome of the twisted mindset that truthers have.


So is the bulk of the truth movement is based in anti-Semitism? Okay. Thanks for the debunking. It's all so simple now.

[UNLoVedRebel]

So is the bulk of the truth movement based in anti-Semitism? Okay.
That's how it started. The ignorance trickled down and a few people from the education-deprived south started believing it.
http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4863651&postcount=36
http://www.public-action.com/911/robotplane.html
http://www.public-action.com/

[R.Mackey]

I've long wondered why the Jews always get fingered, instead of, say, the Scots. After all, I think we, um, I mean they, have just as much claim (http://www.amazon.com/How-Scots-Invented-Modern-World/dp/0609606352) to be running everything.

[CHF]

So is the bulk of the truth movement is based in anti-Semitism? Okay. Thanks for the debunking. It's all so simple now.

Not the bulk, but certainly a good chunk of its foundation.

Why do you think there are so many prominent Jew haters in the TM ranks, Aldebra34?

Why have Jews been at the center of so many conspiracy theories over the centuries?

It makes perfect sense when you consider what the mind of a conspiracy theorist looks for.

[Algebra34]

That's how it started. The ignorance trickled down and a few people from the education-deprived south started believing it.
http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4863651&postcount=36
http://www.public-action.com/911/robotplane.html
http://www.public-action.com/

Didn't start that way with me. You're not generalizing or stereotyping now are you? Because that's not nice.

When I first heard them on 9/11 insinuate it was middle eastern terrorists I thought it was kind of racist to do so before anyone knew anything. I remembered the same thing happened with Oklahoma City with the first reports. We all know how that turned out. Someone from INSIDE this country. INSIDE.

[UNLoVedRebel]

When I first heard them on 9/11 insinuate it was middle eastern terrorists I thought it was kind of racist to do so before anyone knew anything. I remembered the same thing happened with Oklahoma City with the first reports. We all know how that turned out. Someone from INSIDE this country. INSIDE.

People from INSIDE this country did 9/11 too. They were INSIDE the United States. That's how they hijacked the planes INSIDE this country and crashed them into targets INSIDE this country.
Didn't start that way with me. You're not generalizing or stereotyping now are you? Because that's not nice.
I'm not stereotyping, I'm going by the evidence presented. I have every reason to believe you are uneducated and from the South.

[AJM8125]

Didn't start that way with me. You're not generalizing or stereotyping now are you? Because that's not nice.

When I first heard them on 9/11 insinuate it was middle eastern terrorists I thought it was kind of racist to do so before anyone knew anything. I remembered the same thing happened with Oklahoma City with the first reports. We all know how that turned out. Someone from INSIDE this country. INSIDE.

You mean the guy that thought the goverment was being taken over by the NWO and the Bilderberg Group? The guy that killed 167 people because of a conspiracy theory?

[Algebra34]

Not the bulk, but certainly a good chunk of its foundation.

Why do you think there are so many prominent Jew haters in the TM ranks, Aldebra34?

Why have Jews been at the center of so many conspiracy theories over the centuries?

It makes perfect sense when you consider what the mind of a conspiracy theorist looks for.

I think there are just a lot of Jew haters in general. Isn't that what all the suffering has been about for ages now? 9/11 is an oportunity for them. It doesn't mean just because someone like me has questions about 9/11 that I'm in the same ranks as them or that they are what got me questioning it in the first place.

Think of it this way. Some KKK are Republicans. So what?

[CHF]

When I first heard them on 9/11 insinuate it was middle eastern terrorists I thought it was kind of racist to do so before anyone knew anything.

As soon as I saw that second plane slam into the South Tower I immediately thought of which group was most likely to launch a such a suicide attack.

It came down to a logical choice of either: Japanese Kamikaze (long out of business), Tamil Tigers (too busy with Sri Lanka), or the Islamic fundamentalists who had been launching suicide attacks on US targets since 1983.

I thought it was pretty obvious which was most likely and, lo and behold, I was right.

At least I thought I was right, until I saw the brilliant option that brave trutherseekers like yourself came up with.

You know...the option of the planes actually being diverted to a secret airfield, and then airphone calls being faked in order to ID Arab hijackers, and then remote control planes being used to hit the towers, which were then demolished using bombs and a side order of nanothermite, all of which was followed by fake "Islamic terrorists" praising the attacks and threatening more.

I think there are just a lot of Jew haters in general. Isn't that what all the suffering has been about for ages now? 9/11 is an oportunity for them. It doesn't mean just because someone like me has questions about 9/11 that I'm in the same ranks as them or that they are what got me questioning it in the first place.

I never said you were in the same rank as the Jew-haters. But have you at any point wondered why there are so many of them in the TM? What is it about 9/11 truth that seems to draw them like moths to a flame? And, most importantly, why have they been so warmly received?

[Dave Rogers]

I've long wondered why the Jews always get fingered, instead of, say, the Scots.

Because the Jews are less likely to nut their accusers?

Dave

[ref]

I've long wondered why the Jews always get fingered, instead of, say, the Scots. After all, I think we, um, I mean they, have just as much claim (http://www.amazon.com/How-Scots-Invented-Modern-World/dp/0609606352) to be running everything.

The blaming of Jews has been going on for centuries and ages. It's mostly been a religious battle. It's interesting to read how many things have been blamed on Jews.

They've been blamed for killing Jesus, having magical powers from making a deal with the Devil, etc. Jews were restricted to marginal occupations. Lending money for interest was a sin for Christians, but this restriction did not apply to Jews, so they were motivated to take up money lending and tax collecting. This naturally lead to the origins of negative stereotypes of greedy Jews, which originate from the middle ages.

Also, the Black Death was said to have been caused by the Jews by deliberately poisoning wells.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_Europe_(Middle_Ages)

Blame it on the Jews has a looooooooong history. And it still continues.

[Harpo]

Now one of the favorite new tactics is to call it Zionism and claim it's not anti-Semitic. They're still racist scum when they make those claims.

That's the one subject they don't want you to confront them with because it exposes them for the close-minded bigots they really are.

Take this site (which my son showed me a few years ago) for example, which holds itself up as being at the frontline of the self-styled "truth movement":

h**p://forum.concen.org/index.php?showtopic=30294

A thread about comedy kike bashing.

h**p://forum.concen.org/index.php?showforum=46

A specialised Zionist sub-forum, because they don't want to keep using the word Jew in case it upsets their web-host.

and even this,

h**p://forum.concen.org/index.php?showtopic=14598

A whole thread initiated by someone who appears to be a neo-nazi that gets pinned for everyone to use as a reference source.

If it wasn't so vomit-inducing it'd be comical.

There is also a complete shortage of sceptics on the site to counter-balance the bullsh*t. It seems (from my reading) to have the complete spectrum of woo from holocaust denial, anti-vaccine paranoia, illuminati bloodlines, Icke's rantings, Jones's fear-mongering to Von Daniken and hollow earthers. All wrapped up in a thick blanket of scientific and historical ignorance/blindness.

Check it out and let me know what you think. :)

[deep]

While the reaction of most truthers is to dismiss these people as crackpots, racists or "disinfo" (unless you're DR Griffin in which case you quote them in your books), it's hard to see why truthers are so quick to throw these people overboard.(emphasis mine)

But have you at any point wondered why there are so many of them in the TM? What is it about 9/11 truth that seems to draw them like moths to a flame? And, most importantly, why have they been so warmly received?


You admit that most truthers dismiss them as crackpots (etc) .. but then you're wondering why they're so warmly received?

Funny!

[Shaun from Scotland]

I've long wondered why the Jews always get fingered, instead of, say, the Scots. After all, I think we, um, I mean they, have just as much claim (http://www.amazon.com/How-Scots-Invented-Modern-World/dp/0609606352) to be running everything.

We do run everything. As you have now revealed everything to the World, I am going to have you pusued by a Tartan helicopter, which will eliminate you in a terribly unfortunate, haggis related "suicide".

No one messes with the MIK (Men in Kilts)

[cludgie]

I never said you were in the same rank as the Jew-haters. But have you at any point wondered why there are so many of them in the TM? What is it about 9/11 truth that seems to draw them like moths to a flame? And, most importantly, why have they been so warmly received?


I'm not sure which sums it up better...

"My enemy's enemy is my friend"

...or...

"Any port in a storm"

[RedIbis]

(emphasis mine)




You admit that most truthers dismiss them as crackpots (etc) .. but then you're wondering why they're so warmly received?

Funny!

And this is just what this forum needed, yet another thread conflating all questioning of 9/11 down to a few bigots who no one even pays any attention to.

[johnny karate]

And this is just what this forum needed, yet another thread conflating all questioning of 9/11 down to a few bigots who no one even pays any attention to.

No one said it was those that merely question the events of 9/11. (Now whose guilty of conflation?) We're talking about the Truth Movement here, a distinction which was clearly made in the OP.

[16.5]

And this is just what this forum needed, yet another thread conflating all questioning of 9/11 down to a few bigots who no one even pays any attention to.

CITATION NEEDED.

Anyhow, this is just part 4000 in Red's Series of "I am better than other truthers and you guys are big meanies for lumping me in with them."

[Childlike Empress]

And this is just what this forum needed, yet another thread conflating all questioning of 9/11 down to a few bigots who no one even pays any attention to.


Yeah, the deja vu is strong on this one. What was the last CHF thread about, you know, the last one in a series of threads where he was told that his line of thought is silly because there is no official "truth movement" you can be a member of, therefore that nonexisting organisation isn't able to "clean their ranks" at all? Holocaust deniers? TV fakery?

Can't remeber - but he didn't get it.

[CHF]

You admit that most truthers dismiss them as crackpots (etc) .. but then you're wondering why they're so warmly received?

Funny!

There's no contradition here, Deep.

While it's true that the average rank-and-file truther like yourself will instinctively avoid snuggling up to anti-Semites (at least in public), the same can't be said for TM leaders.

Steven Jones worked with Chris Bollyn, David Ray Griffin still sites the likes of Eric Hufschmid, Alex Jones ran banner ads for the same people, James Fetzer was willing to appear on the same stage of Eric D. Williams, and it took Loose Change three editions before the Jew-haters at AFP were no longer cited as a reliable source.

I'd say that's a rather warm welcome, especially for such vile social outcasts.

So why are neo-Nazi crackpots welcomed in your movement in ways that they aren't anywhere else?

As I say in the OP, how can they NOT be? Truthers and Jew-haters both believe the same basic thing. The latter are just a little less reluctant to name names.

[WildCat]

And this is just what this forum needed, yet another thread conflating all questioning of 9/11 down to a few bigots who no one even pays any attention to.
Aren't you supposed to be out looking for a fact?

[CaptainHair]

People from INSIDE this country did 9/11 too. They were INSIDE the United States. That's how they hijacked the planes INSIDE this country and crashed them into targets INSIDE this country.

I'm not stereotyping, I'm going by the evidence presented. I have every reason to believe you are uneducated and from the South.

I find your statement about being uneducated and from the south to be very rude. I can't call it racism, maybe sectionalism is apropos. You should apologize for making inane criticisms like that!!

MC

[johnny karate]

Yeah, the deja vu is strong on this one. What was the last CHF thread about, you know, the last one in a series of threads where he was told that his line of thought is silly because there is no official "truth movement" you can be a member of, therefore that nonexisting organisation isn't able to "clean their ranks" at all? Holocaust deniers? TV fakery?

Can't remeber - but he didn't get it.

The Truth Movement doesn't exist? Better tell that to the Truth Movement (http://www.google.com/search?q=truth+movement&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari).

[CHF]

Yeah, the deja vu is strong on this one. What was the last CHF thread about, you know, the last one in a series of threads where he was told that his line of thought is silly because there is no official "truth movement" you can be a member of, therefore that nonexisting organisation isn't able to "clean their ranks" at all? Holocaust deniers? TV fakery?

Ah so the "truth movement" doesn't exist. :rolleyes: Is it just me or are truthers increasingly disowning themselves?

CE - insofar as there is a group that can be called the "truth movement," would you say that Steven Jones, David Ray Griffin, Alex Jones and Dylan Avery are part of it?

In fact, would these not be considered rather prominent voices?

All "movements" have their crackpot elements vying for acceptance and the mere existence of such elements says nothing about the movement itself. For example, the creeps at NAMBLA try to associate themselves with the gay rights movement.

What really counts is how a movement chooses to deal with these elements. Most truthers will dismiss the claims of anti-Semites unless those claims are first laundered through their movement's leaders, in which case they become gospal.

[RedIbis]

Why is it the only time I ever hear about Bollyn, Hufschmid or AFP, it's right here on jref?

[CHF]

Why is it the only time I ever hear about Bollyn, Hufschmid or AFP, it's right here on jref?

I told you why.

It's because the rest of the time you're hearing their claims through another source.

[johnny karate]

Why is it the only time I ever hear about Bollyn, Hufschmid or AFP, it's right here on jref?

Because JREF has a specific sub-forum dealing with 9/11 conspiracy theories, and the examples you cited each have played some kind of role in promulgating those conspiracy theories.

[RedIbis]

I told you why.

It's because the rest of the time you're hearing their claims through another source.

What source and what claim? Be specific or your OP and your entire tack is nothing more than puerile guilt by ascribed association.

[RedIbis]

Because JREF has a specific sub-forum dealing with 9/11 conspiracy theories, and the examples you cited each have played some kind of role in promulgating those conspiracy theories.

Wrong. NIST and the The Commission played the only role in promulgating conspiracy theories since their "investigations" begged more questions than they answered.

[funk de fino]

I've long wondered why the Jews always get fingered, instead of, say, the Scots. After all, I think we, um, I mean they, have just as much claim (http://www.amazon.com/How-Scots-Invented-Modern-World/dp/0609606352) to be running everything.


You knows it;)

Even the Romans did not mess with us much. They had to build a couple of big walls to keep us at bay while they subjugated the English for years.

Guy who invented the pneumatic tyre was just up the road from me.

[funk de fino]

Why is it the only time I ever hear about Bollyn, Hufschmid or AFP, it's right here on jref?


Why just a few days ago, one of the remaining 911TM supporters linked directly to Bollyn.

[funk de fino]

Wrong. NIST and the The Commission played the only role in promulgating conspiracy theories since their "investigations" begged more questions than they answered.

That is completely untrue and a pathetic claim.

There were theories and claims made long before NIST or the 911 Commission were ever published.

I suggest you retract that false claim. Or you may be called a proven liar.

[dtugg]

RedIbis lying? Why that's a huge shocker!

[CHF]

What source and what claim? Be specific or your OP and your entire tack is nothing more than puerile guilt by ascribed association.

Take, for example, Christopher Bollyn.

He's the guy who misrepresented the seismic data from the Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory which started the idiotic idea of basement bombs in the WTC. He's apparently also the guy who started the theory that the crash of Flight 93 was faked.

Both claims are now standard truther lore.

And who could forget Eric Hufschmid's 2002 book "Painful questions" which was instrumental in getting the WTC demolition theory off the ground.

Face it, Red: your silly little "movement" owes a lot to these hateful pukes, regardless of whether or not you care to thank them.

[funk de fino]

Truther linking directly to Bollyn

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=5223360&postcount=142

I think someone has been on the sauce.

[RedIbis]

Take, for example, Christopher Bollyn.

He's the guy who misrepresented the seismic data from the Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory which started the idiotic idea of basement bombs in the WTC. He's apparently also the guy who started the theory that the crash of Flight 93 was faked.

Both claims are now standard truther lore.

And who could forget Eric Hufschmid's 2002 book "Painful questions" which was instrumental in getting the WTC demolition theory off the ground.

Face it, Red: your silly little "movement" owes a lot to these hateful pukes, regardless of whether or not you care to thank them.

What the hell is "standard truther lore"? and where has a Twoofilious Twoofer such as myself ever referenced these sources?

[funk de fino]

What the hell is "standard truther lore"? and where has a Twoofilious Twoofer such as myself ever referenced these sources?

And now with the moving goalposts and semantics I believe.

Carry on.

[TexasJack]

Wrong. NIST and the The Commission played the only role in promulgating conspiracy theories since their "investigations" begged more questions than they answered.

Really? Then why do you suppose Bush makes this statement before the UN General Assembly on 11-10-01? That's well before the NIST and the Commission Report, right Red?

"Let us never tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories concerning the attacks of September the 11th; malicious lies that attempt to shift the blame away from the terrorists, themselves, away from the guilty."

[RedIbis]

Really? Then why do you suppose Bush makes this statement before the UN General Assembly on 11-10-01? That's well before the NIST and the Commission Report, right Red?

"Let us never tolerate outrageous conspiracy theories concerning the attacks of September the 11th; malicious lies that attempt to shift the blame away from the terrorists, themselves, away from the guilty."

Freudian slip.

[CHF]

What the hell is "standard truther lore"? and where has a Twoofilious Twoofer such as myself ever referenced these sources?

Am I to understand that you don't think the idea of basements bombs and the Flight 93 crash being faked are standard truther talking points?

I'll remember that the next time some idiot talks about Willy Rod or quote-mines Wally Miller.

What next, Red? Can we also throw out Eric Hufschmid's WTC demolition evidence as not being "truther lore?"

At this rate the truthers will all agree with NIST in a few years.

[RedIbis]

Am I to understand that you don't think the idea of basements bombs and the Flight 93 crash being faked are standard truther talking points?

I'll remember that the next time some idiot talks about Willy Rod or quote-mines Wally Miller.

What next, Red? Can we also throw out Eric Hufschmid's WTC demolition evidence as not being "truther lore?"

At this rate the truthers will all agree with NIST in a few years.

To illustrate how poor your logic is and what is wrong this whole line of thinking: I didn't need Hufschmid or Bollyn to tell me about bombs in the basement, I was able to interview the source myself and from what I can tell, he's no anti-semite.

As much as you hope so, bombs in the basement and evidence of explosives doesn't begin nor end with Hufschmid or Bollyn, two long forgotten numbskulls, kept on life support only here on jref and nowhere else. That says a lot more about you than about this fantasy truth movement you keep harping on.

[funk de fino]

To illustrate how poor your logic is and what is wrong this whole line of thinking: I didn't need Hufschmid or Bollyn to tell me about bombs in the basement, I was able to interview the source myself and from what I can tell, he's no anti-semite.

As much as you hope so, bombs in the basement and evidence of explosives doesn't begin nor end with Hufschmid or Bollyn, two long forgotten numbskulls, kept on life support only here on jref and nowhere else. That says a lot more about you than about this fantasy truth movement you keep harping on.

You need to read the OP and stop ignoring posts. The OP was not about you specifically Red.

You have made false claims but you get another chance to retract or you are a proven liar.

I'll repeat it.

Wrong. NIST and the The Commission played the only role in promulgating conspiracy theories since their "investigations" begged more questions than they answered.

[funk de fino]

To illustrate how poor your logic is and what is wrong this whole line of thinking: I didn't need Hufschmid or Bollyn to tell me about bombs in the basement, I was able to interview the source myself and from what I can tell, he's no anti-semite.

If that is Willie, when did he start claiming bombs in the basement?

[johnny karate]

Wrong. NIST and the The Commission played the only role in promulgating conspiracy theories since their "investigations" begged more questions than they answered.

In the spirit of ther civil discourse you claim to promote, please retract this statement and apologize for accusing me of being wrong about something which I clearly am not.

[CHF]

two long forgotten numbskulls, kept on life support only here on jref and nowhere else.

So if I look up Bollyn's BS story about the seismic evidence of "basement bombs" I won't find it referenced anywhere but here?

You sure about that, Red?

If you want to know who keeps those "two long forgotten numbskulls" on life support you can start with DR Griffin.

Heck, even if you disregard Bollyn's "evidence" you still owe him a huge thank you. After all, if he hasn't made up the stupid basement bomb theory, Willy Rod's memory would probably not have been refreshed to the remarkable degree that it was.

2001-2004: "There was this fireball of jet fuel that came down the elevator shaft."

2005-2009: "Did I say jet fuel? I meant BOMB!"

[CHF]

To bring us back to the theme of the OP: how can truthers blame the likes of Bollyn, Hufschmid and the AFP for screaming "Juden!"

Their conclusion is simply the logical one given how the truther brain works.

If you believe that a small group of people have infiltrated governments, banks, media outlets and higher education in order to carry out an evil world-wide conspiracy...then how can you NOT point the finger at the Jewish people?

Seriously, who fits the bill better than they do?

[johnny karate]

To illustrate how poor your logic is and what is wrong this whole line of thinking: I didn't need Hufschmid or Bollyn to tell me about bombs in the basement, I was able to interview the source myself and from what I can tell, he's no anti-semite.

That doesn't mean either man didn't play a role in promoting the theory.

As much as you hope so, bombs in the basement and evidence of explosives doesn't begin nor end with Hufschmid or Bollyn, two long forgotten numbskulls, kept on life support only here on jref and nowhere else. That says a lot more about you than about this fantasy truth movement you keep harping on.

Because you proclaim these men "long forgotten numbskulls" does nothing to change the role they played in the nascent stages of 9/11 conspiracy theories. Unfortunately for you, indignant complaints are not able to alter historical fact.

[Par]

And this is just what this forum needed, yet another thread conflating all questioning of 9/11 down to a few bigots who no one even pays any attention to.


I suppose it’s worth noting that RedIbis subscribes to one of the most blatantly anti-Semitic and ridiculous of all these silly theories: he thinks Larry Silverstein is a liar (but refuses to identify exactly what he’s lied about) (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=3639571&postcount=48).

[TexasJack]

Freudian slip.

So are you accusing Bush of being in on the plot? Or do you think he is was addressing the early theories before NIST and the report, one of which is "the jews did it."

[johnny karate]

... Hufschmid or Bollyn, two long forgotten numbskulls ...

From six days ago:
Chris Bollyn and myself are PRO AMERICAN

I guess your pal jmh423 didn't get the memo that Bollyn is a long forgotten numbskull.

[WildCat]

What the hell is "standard truther lore"? and where has a Twoofilious Twoofer such as myself ever referenced these sources?
Funny, I could swear you spent a lot of time here arguing about "pull it".

Who first came up with that idiotic idea (that Slverstein admitted to blowing up WTC 7 in a TV interview) RedIbis?

BTW, have you found any facts yet? Surely you'll need at least one to launch your Fact Movement?

[CHF]

Who first came up with that idiotic idea (that Slverstein admitted to blowing up WTC 7 in a TV interview) RedIbis?

I seem to recall it being someone from the American Free Press, but I could be wrong.

A guy admits to blowing up his own buiding (in co-operation with the FDNY of all people) during a TV interview and doesn't even flinch or retract his confession seconds later??? :eek:

One can't help but wonder if the truthers would be insisting on a theory that stupid if the guy's name was Anderson.

Doesn't scream conspiracy quite like Silverstein, does it?

[MikeW]

9/11 theories very similar to modern trutherspeak started within hours of the attacks (details (http://911myths.com/index.php/In_the_beginning)).

[RedIbis]

So are you accusing Bush of being in on the plot? Or do you think he is was addressing the early theories before NIST and the report, one of which is "the jews did it."

Well since Bush is Jewish of course I believe he was in on it. My vociferous criticism of Condaleeza Rice, Rumsfeld, Cheney and Giuliani are all examples of my rampant anti-semitism.

[RedIbis]

I suppose it’s worth noting that RedIbis subscribes to one of the most blatantly anti-Semitic and ridiculous of all these silly theories: he thinks Larry Silverstein is a liar (but refuses to identify exactly what he’s lied about) (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=3639571&postcount=48).

What the hell does this have to do with anti-semitism? Be specific when you quote me and claim that I said anything even remotely anti-semitic.

[CHF]

Well since Bush is Jewish of course I believe he was in on it. My vociferous criticism of Condaleeza Rice, Rumsfeld, Cheney and Giuliani are all examples of my rampant anti-semitism.

This isn't all about YOU, Red. I'm not saying YOU are an anti-semite.

What I do say is that anti-semites have been allowed to make inroads in the truth movement in ways that they haven't elsewhere.

Why do you suppose this is?

[Brainster]

Why is it the only time I ever hear about Bollyn, Hufschmid or AFP, it's right here on jref?

Because you don't read David Ray Griffin's books?

[TexasJack]

Well since Bush is Jewish of course I believe he was in on it. My vociferous criticism of Condaleeza Rice, Rumsfeld, Cheney and Giuliani are all examples of my rampant anti-semitism.

Another evasion and failed attempt at humor. No surprise, but do try to follow, you made this statement NIST and the The Commission played the only role in promulgating conspiracy theories since their "investigations" begged more questions than they answered.
Note, you said only. I pointed out Bush addressing conspiracy theories before NIST and the Commssion Report, and you retorted "Freudian Slip". Is this another failed attempt at humor or are you suggesting Bush was in on it. The fact is, many conspiracy theories were circulating before NIST and the Commission Report (see Mike W's link)and here http://911guide.googlepages.com/history, among them by Hufschmid. So were you wrong about "only"?

[RedIbis]

This isn't all about YOU, Red. I'm not saying YOU are an anti-semite.

What I do say is that anti-semites have been allowed to make inroads in the truth movement in ways that they haven't elsewhere.

Why do you suppose this is?

There are bigots everywhere. You choose to focus on the few who have questioned the official story of 9/11 because you are making a cheap attempt at guilt by association.

Assuming that Hitler was a vegetarian, should all vegetarians apologize for what he did? If you saw the racist facebook photos on the RNC facebook page, why don't you demand that all Republicans denounce these racist images?

[CHF]

There are bigots everywhere. You choose to focus on the few who have questioned the official story of 9/11 because you are making a cheap attempt at guilt by association.

A few? It's not "a few" truthers who associate with Jew-haters - it's the very cornerstones of your movement. Steven Jones, DR Griffin, Loose Change, Alex Jones....all have worked with, or have cited, the Truthen-SS.

The claims and "evidence" that these creeps came up with have since become standard truther talking points.

That's way beyond an isolated incident, Red. It's a pattern. The question is why did this relationship between truthers and Jew-haters take hold in the first place and why has it endured?

I've given you my theory. Still waiting on yours.

Assuming that Hitler was a vegetarian, should all vegetarians apologize for what he did?

Hitler's vegitarianism was incidental to his crimes.

Anti-semitism, on the other hand, doesn't appear to be incidental to the TM. It appears to be a logic extension of the paranoid mindset that drives it.

The fact that so few truthers disown the mindless talking points of the Truthen-SS shows that either they support the Jew-haters in their midst or they just don't care.

Either position is reprehensible.

[RedIbis]

the Truthen-SS.[...]

the Truthen-SS .

See what I'm talking about?

If anyone's interested all of this was covered in a thread I started awhile back. The discussion is a lot more mature and productive than this one is turning out to be.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=111934

[CHF]

See what I'm talking about?

Yeah I totally see what you're talking about. You don't like it when reality is pointed out to you.

Rabid Jew-haters are still treated respectfully by the most popular and "credible" people in the TM and the rank-and-file truthers either accept it or pretend not to notice.

Reality can be embarrassing sometimes, Red. Either way you gotta deal with it.

[funk de fino]

See what I'm talking about?

If anyone's interested all of this was covered in a thread I started awhile back. The discussion is a lot more mature and productive than this one is turning out to be.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=111934

You made a false claim and have refused to retract it. You are a liar Red Ibis.

How arrogant/pig headed can you be, that you could not just admit the mistake and get back to the OP, instead of your thoughts on what you think the OP is?

When did Willie start claiming bombs in the basement Red?

[johnny karate]

See what I'm talking about?

If anyone's interested all of this was covered in a thread I started awhile back. The discussion is a lot more mature and productive than this one is turning out to be.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=111934

I agree that your mock indignation and blatant falsehoods are neither mature nor productive. So if you could simply stop this behavior, or excuse yourself from the thread, maybe we can focus on those interested in honestly addressing the OP.

[TexasJack]

See what I'm talking about?

If anyone's interested all of this was covered in a thread I started awhile back. The discussion is a lot more mature and productive than this one is turning out to be.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=111934

What would be mature and productive would be admitting you were wrong. Are you willing to concede that you were wrong about this statement?

Wrong. NIST and the The Commission played the only role in promulgating conspiracy theories since their "investigations" begged more questions than they answered.

[Par]

I suppose it’s worth noting that RedIbis subscribes to one of the most blatantly anti-Semitic and ridiculous of all these silly theories: he thinks Larry Silverstein is a liar (but refuses to identify exactly what he’s lied about) (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=3639571&postcount=48).What the hell does this have to do with anti-semitism?


You subscribe to one of the most blatantly anti-Semitic and ridiculous of all these silly theories. You seem to be asking what anti-Semitic conspiracy theories have to do with anti-Semitism. What an odd question.

[WildCat]

When did Willie start claiming bombs in the basement Red?
Willie just forgot about the bombs until 3 years later. People often forget about little insignificant details like a giant bomb going off in their face, only to remember years later when there's money to be made selling the TRUTH.

[RedIbis]

You subscribe to one of the most blatantly anti-Semitic and ridiculous of all these silly theories. You seem to be asking what anti-Semitic conspiracy theories have to do with anti-Semitism. What an odd question.

I asked you what specifically in my quote that sounds to you like anti-semitism? You have thus far been unable to locate such a quote.

[WildCat]

I asked you what specifically in my quote that sounds to you like anti-semitism? You have thus far been unable to locate such a quote.
So you think you're off the hook because you only parrot claims made by anti-semites?

[RedIbis]

What would be mature and productive would be admitting you were wrong. Are you willing to concede that you were wrong about this statement?

While we're arguing semantics it is not wrong since both of those institutions would have been able to end all conspiracy theories by producing thorough investigations backed by evidence. They both failed and have done more to substantiate conspiracy theories than any half rate bigotry promoted nowhere but on this website.

[TexasJack]

While we're arguing semantics it is not wrong since both of those institutions would have been able to end all conspiracy theories by producing thorough investigations backed by evidence. They both failed and have done more to substantiate conspiracy theories than any half rate bigotry promoted nowhere but on this website.

I guess we can throw out mature and productive from your vocabulary, but evasion remains at the top of your list. Are you in that much denial that you can't admit you were wrong? Simply amazing.

[CHF]

While we're arguing semantics it is not wrong since both of those institutions would have been able to end all conspiracy theories by producing thorough investigations backed by evidence. They both failed and have done more to substantiate conspiracy theories than any half rate bigotry promoted nowhere but on this website.

That's laughable considering that most truthers know bugger all about the "official story" which they dismiss as a lie.

But back the OP. Why do you think anti-Semites have been so welcomed/tolerated by the TM?

I gave my theory. What's yours?

[Par]

And this is just what this forum needed, yet another thread conflating all questioning of 9/11 down to a few bigots who no one even pays any attention to.I suppose it’s worth noting that RedIbis subscribes to one of the most blatantly anti-Semitic and ridiculous of all these silly theories: he thinks Larry Silverstein is a liar (but refuses to identify exactly what he’s lied about) (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=3639571&postcount=48).What the hell does this have to do with anti-semitism? Be specific when you quote me and claim that I said anything even remotely anti-semitic.You subscribe to one of the most blatantly anti-Semitic and ridiculous of all these silly theories. You seem to be asking what anti-Semitic conspiracy theories have to do with anti-Semitism. What an odd question.I asked you what specifically in my quote that sounds to you like anti-semitism? You have thus far been unable to locate such a quote.


I've no idea why you're asking for such a thing. Making groundless nonsense accusations Silvertien seems to me like anti-Semitism.

[RedIbis]

That's laughable considering that most truthers know bugger all about the "official story" which they dismiss as a lie.

But back the OP. Why do you think anti-Semites have been so welcomed/tolerated by the TM?

I gave my theory. What's yours?

I've articulated my position on this many times. In the T-word thread I said that claiming to be a truther or calling someone a truther is equally stupid. I reject the notion there is such a thing as a Truth Movement.

[RedIbis]

I've no idea why you're asking for such a thing. Making groundless nonsense accusations Silvertien seems to me like anti-Semitism.

I suspect this is true, you do have no idea why I would ask you for a specific quote that can be construed as anti-semitic. I've criticized LS many times. I've criticized Richard Myers and Giuliani as well, but I've been yet to be called anti-Italian or anti-Caucasian. Now why is that?

[9/11 Chewy Defense]

I'll tell ya 1 thing, I'd soon trust my opinions on the 9/11 Official Report's evidence than some hair brained lame Conspiracy Theories that aren't official nor contain evidence.

If it isn't official or have any evidence it's not worth the time or the effort. But Truthers lack the knowledge & understanding that what they believe in is just a narrative story, a fairy story.

[Sunray Breaker]

I've articulated my position on this many times. In the T-word thread I said that claiming to be a truther or calling someone a truther is equally stupid. I reject the notion there is such a thing as a Truth Movement.
Of course you would, even when there's obvious photo evidence to the contrary...That's a typical truther move
http://www.indybay.org/uploads/2009/03/23/911truth4peace.jpg

[WildCat]

Face it RedIbis, the entire truth movement was founded by anti-semites. Without the anti-semites there would be no truth movement. They were an essential part of it, kind of like having a fact is an essential start to that Fact Movement of yours. Have you found a fact yet?

[funk de fino]

I suspect this is true, you do have no idea why I would ask you for a specific quote that can be construed as anti-semitic. I've criticized LS many times. I've criticized Richard Myers and Giuliani as well, but I've been yet to be called anti-Italian or anti-Caucasian. Now why is that?


Another derail completed and a also another attempt fee from admitting a false claim. How childishly pathetic.

[Par]

I've criticized LS many times.


No. Making groundless nonsense accusations is not criticism.


I've criticized Richard Myers and Giuliani as well...


Perhaps you've made equally stupid false accusations against them, too, but I don't know.

...but I've been yet to be called anti-Italian or anti-Caucasian. Now why is that?


For the same reason caricaturing a white man as an ape wouldn’t be racist, but doing the same to a black man probably would, I imagine.

[funk de fino]

While we're arguing semantics it is not wrong since both of those institutions would have been able to end all conspiracy theories by producing thorough investigations backed by evidence. They both failed and have done more to substantiate conspiracy theories than any half rate bigotry promoted nowhere but on this website.

And thats another lie.

[funk de fino]

There is a poster from the 911TM side of the fence posting about "dual citizen traitors who have covered up 911"

Doesn't get any more clear cut than that.

When did Willie start claiming bombs Red?

[johnny karate]

While we're arguing semantics it is not wrong since both of those institutions would have been able to end all conspiracy theories by producing thorough investigations backed by evidence. They both failed and have done more to substantiate conspiracy theories than any half rate bigotry promoted nowhere but on this website.

There is no semantic argument to be made here.

You simply told a lie.

My original claim:
Because JREF has a specific sub-forum dealing with 9/11 conspiracy theories, and the examples you cited each have played some kind of role in promulgating those conspiracy theories.

The lie you offered in response:
Wrong. NIST and the The Commission played the only role in promulgating conspiracy theories since their "investigations" begged more questions than they answered.

So what was I wrong about Red?

Do you deny notorious anti-Semites Eric Hufschmid, Chris Bollyn, and the American Free Press each played roles in promulgating 9/11 conspiracy theories?

Do you continue to stand by your claim that NIST and the 9/11 Commission played the only role (if any) in promulgating such theories?

Both your statements you made are demonstrably false, and you have refused to back down from them.

This makes you a liar.

(If you anyone way feel I have unfairly maligned you, I encourage you to report this post, and all future posts in which I will link to your lies and refer to you as a liar, for moderation. I will be satisfied with whatever decision the moderators make.)

[beachnut]

I think there are just a lot of Jew haters in general. Isn't that what all the suffering has been about for ages now? 9/11 is an oportunity for them. It doesn't mean just because someone like me has questions about 9/11 that I'm in the same ranks as them or that they are what got me questioning it in the first place.

Think of it this way. Some KKK are Republicans. So what?
Yes you hit it. The neoNAZI dolts gravitate to the dirt dumb delusions of 911TruthLIES. They lack knowledge and their logical thinking is damaged by their hate and stupidity. Those who lack knowledge gravitate to the moronic ideas of 911TruthLIES; why not the biased in the closet bigots who think 9/11 was an opportunity for Jews.


Wrong. NIST and the The Commission played the only role in promulgating conspiracy theories since their "investigations" begged more questions than they answered.
Wrong. Those who lack knowledge and can't understand the events, like 911TruthLIES, are the only people who propagate the dire dumb delusions made up out of ignorance.
The only people begging more questions are due to their own ignorance.

[CHF]

I've articulated my position on this many times. In the T-word thread I said that claiming to be a truther or calling someone a truther is equally stupid. I reject the notion there is such a thing as a Truth Movement.

This, ladies and gents, is how embarrassed truthers are of themselves.

But I suppose that's one way to deal with the issue of anti-Semitism in the truth movement: deny there even is a truth movement!

Cuz if there's no such thing as the TM then how can there be any anti-Semites in it?

Why that's brillaint! Brilliant I tell you!

[dudalb]

Face it RedIbis, the entire truth movement was founded by anti-semites. Without the anti-semites there would be no truth movement. They were an essential part of it, kind of like having a fact is an essential start to that Fact Movement of yours. Have you found a fact yet?


The origins of the Truth Movement are murky enough that I would not claim that it was founded by Anti Semites, but it is clear from early on that Anti Semities found welcome and a home in the Truth Movement, and have always had a huge presence in the movement. Which is one reason why although reason and common sense indicate the various Truth Movement "Leaders" should try to seperate themselves from the Anti Semites, they make no real effort to do so beyond denying the Truth Movement is Anti Semitic. Not good enough by a long shot, guys.

[RedIbis]

(If you anyone way feel I have unfairly maligned you, I encourage you to report this post, and all future posts in which I will link to your lies and refer to you as a liar, for moderation. I will be satisfied with whatever decision the moderators make.)

I wouldn't expect them to do a damn thing about it since this is essentially all you've ever done from the day you started posting.

You cling to semantics because it's all you have left. Much like this tenacious grip you keep by associating any questioning of the official story with anti-semitism.

Feel free to address just that.

[TheBigKahuna]

You cling to semantics because it's all you have left. Much like this tenacious grip you keep by associating any questioning of the official story with anti-semitism.

Feel free to address just that.

Here's a reason why (from Facebook 9/11 truth movement group):

-The Un-Debunkable Truth about 9/11.

***************ZIONISM (AKA) 9/11 MASTERMINDS***************

The best info on zionisms history and 9/11.
http://apfn.org/apfn/WTC_STF.htm

911 MISSING LINKS: Goes where no other 911 documentary dares.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7877765982288566190# (2 Hours)

MOSSAD: Proof that ISRAEL was involved on 9/11.
http://theinfounderground.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5367

Mossad Truck Bombs on Sept 11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=3aKj6uJ5Mt4 (8 Mins)

Israeli 911 terrorism ties!! FOX news report now CLASSIFIED
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7T4DhDLPrY&mode= (Part 1 - 9 Mins)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSEbgrmKtmA&mode= (Part 2 - 5 Mins)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nE9crBylehs&mode= (Part 3 - 5 Mins)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omoyOGid7cA&mode= (Part 4 - 4 Mins)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4OjTX2rYXzg (Part 5 - 4 Mins)

5 Dancing Mossad agents:
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/fiveisraelis.html

Israel: 5 Israeli's arrested on 9/11, what the media didnt tell you!
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fiveisraelis.html
http://911research.wtc7.net/sept11/israelispys.html

"We were there to Document the event":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRfhUezbKLw (3 Mins)

Airports: All 9/11 Airport security Serviced by One Israeli Owned Company!
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ICTS.html

Zionist control in American Media, you should start from chapter 1!
http://www.the7thfire.com/9-11/Pastore_Investigation_of_%209-11/chapter_7--Zionist_power_structure_in_America.htm

Zionists: Jews are against the Zionists, protests in Israel
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/jews_against_zionism.html

Zionists: Ariel Sharon says Israel Controls the US
http://www.rense.com/general45/sharonsinfamouscomment.htm

Eric Hufschmid on Zionism:
http://www.erichufschmid.net/TFC/zionism.html

The History of Israel and Britain and the USA:
http://www.erichufschmid.net/HistoryOfIsraelAndTheUSA.html

9/11 For Reality Deniers: Well sourced info!
http://takeourworldback.com/911realitydeniers.htm

Understanding the history of Anti-Semitism, the how and why it's used.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7058222283109754341#

[9/11 Chewy Defense]

RedIbis loves to pick on the Jewish people.

If that's not anti-semitism then he's lost his mind.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Well since Bush is Jewish of course I believe he was in on it.

Not surprised at all to hear this from Redibis.

[ref]

The origins of the Truth Movement are murky enough that I would not claim that it was founded by Anti Semites, but it is clear from early on that Anti Semities found welcome and a home in the Truth Movement, and have always had a huge presence in the movement. Which is one reason why although reason and common sense indicate the various Truth Movement "Leaders" should try to seperate themselves from the Anti Semites, they make no real effort to do so beyond denying the Truth Movement is Anti Semitic. Not good enough by a long shot, guys.

You are on the right track here. There wasn't any plan to start a "truth movement" by any group of people. Many of those who first came up with popular truther theories were anti-semitic. But a fact is, that all of them were not.

For example, Jared Israel (http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/jared/treason.htm) came up with the NORAD stand down theory, which is still largely supported by almost every member of the TM. But Jared Israel is a strong supporter of Israel and an avid opposer of any anti-semitic conspiracy theories.

Griffin supports Jared Israel's NORAD stand down theories. Does this mean now, that Griffin is not anti-semitic after all? Of course not, neither does him quoting Bollyn make him anti-semitic.

People here have to understand that these TM leaders want these theories, regardless of the people who came up with them. In many (or most) occasions they may not even know who first came up with these ideas. They just know that this or that theory fits their world view, and they adopt that theory.

Of course, there are some shady occasions when Jones hangs out with Bollyn, probably well aware of his background. Him and Griffin could at least make it more clear, that they support the theories, not the people behind them.

But in general, the entire movement can not be labeled anti-semitic just because many theories they support have originated from anti-semites, because many theories they support did not originate from anti-semites. This movement simply picks up theories they like. Even if we erased all the anti-semites from the history of 9/11 TM, there would still be a 9/11 TM. There are always people, who don't buy the "official explanations" and look for something different. Anti-semites may be well represented in this category, but they do not represent the entire population of people, who doubt the government.

If some regular TM guy claims the towers fell into their footprints, does he have to know that a guy called Jim McMichael first came up with this idea, which was then copied by Eric Hufschmid and Jim Hoffman, which was then adopted by Griffin after he researched for more evidence after reading the Paul Thompson timeline? Can we now claim, that because this regular TM guy had read a Griffin book and consequently claimed the towers fell into their footprints, that he must retract this claim because Jim McMichael might have been anti-semitic? This TM guy probably has no idea who this Jim McMichael guy is, heck, even Griffin probably has no clue! They subscribe to the ideas!

This is very complicated. Although many representatives of the TM fit the description, and they probably should know more about the origins, it's not all that simple folks. But I must say I think it's healthy for every member of the TM (and debunker alike) to understand, that these theories started very early, and they were mostly started by people who were very opposed to anything "official" to begin with. They used this as an opportunity to spread their world views.

[Scott Sommers]

You are on the right track here. There wasn't any plan to start a "truth movement" by any group of people. Many of those who first came up with popular truther theories were anti-semitic. But a fact is, that all of them were not.

For example, Jared Israel (http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/jared/treason.htm) came up with the NORAD stand down theory, which is still largely supported by almost every member of the TM. But Jared Israel is a strong supporter of Israel and an avid opposer of any anti-semitic conspiracy theories.

Griffin supports Jared Israel's NORAD stand down theories. Does this mean now, that Griffin is not anti-semitic after all? Of course not, neither does him quoting Bollyn make him anti-semitic.

People here have to understand that these TM leaders want these theories, regardless of the people who came up with them. In many (or most) occasions they may not even know who first came up with these ideas. They just know that this or that theory fits their world view, and they adopt that theory.

Of course, there are some shady occasions when Jones hangs out with Bollyn, probably well aware of his background. Him and Griffin could at least make it more clear, that they support the theories, not the people behind them.

But in general, the entire movement can not be labeled anti-semitic just because many theories they support have originated from anti-semites, because many theories they support did not originate from anti-semites. This movement simply picks up theories they like. Even if we erased all the anti-semites from the history of 9/11 TM, there would still be a 9/11 TM. There are always people, who don't buy the "official explanations" and look for something different. Anti-semites may be well represented in this category, but they do not represent the entire population of people, who doubt the government.

If some regular TM guy claims the towers fell into their footprints, does he have to know that a guy called Jim McMichael first came up with this idea, which was then copied by Eric Hufschmid and Jim Hoffman, which was then adopted by Griffin after he researched for more evidence after reading the Paul Thompson timeline? Can we now claim, that because this regular TM guy had read a Griffin book and consequently claimed the towers fell into their footprints, that he must retract this claim because Jim McMichael might have been anti-semitic? This TM guy probably has no idea who this Jim McMichael guy is, heck, even Griffin probably has no clue! They subscribe to the ideas!

This is very complicated. Although many representatives of the TM fit the description, and they probably should know more about the origins, it's not all that simple folks. But I must say I think it's healthy for every member of the TM (and debunker alike) to understand, that these theories started very early, and they were mostly started by people who were very opposed to anything "official" to begin with. They used this as an opportunity to spread their world views.

I don't think anyone doubts the logic of your post. The problem is larger than this, though. I you track the activity of 911 Truth groups over the last while, there's a disturbing pattern. Truth groups are increasingly having trouble attracting new membership among mainstream Americans. It is increasingly the case that to deal with this problem, Truth groups composed of mainstream Americans appear to be building bridges into anti-Semitic groups. Gage's recent speaking engagement at a mosque would be part of this. So would the growing number of Facebook groups composed of members who state they live in primarily Muslim nations. Public anti-Semites, like Kevin Barrett, are busy trying to build Internet support from more mainstream proponents of 911 Truth.

Of course it's moving in that direction. After Obama got elected and the 911 Democrats jumped ship, the hard-core membership of 911 has moved increasingly toward the Right. While you can hardly blame some high school kid for quoting a 911 theorist who is also a Nazi, the ideology that 911 Truth grows around now was designed to make space for anti-Semitic beliefs. There's nobody left to recruit in North America. 911 Truth has only limited appeal in Europe and almost none in NE Asia. There's only one direction for it to go if these guys still want members.

I've always wondered why Gage doesn't speak in Afghanistan. I'm sure the Taliban would find some opium money for him somewhere. He could be their national hero if he was willing to give up women and booze.

[ref]

It is increasingly the case that to deal with this problem, Truth groups composed of mainstream Americans appear to be building bridges into anti-Semitic groups. Gage's recent speaking engagement at a mosque would be part of this. So would the growing number of Facebook groups composed of members who state they live in primarily Muslim nations.

Well, I never saw this coming, but I am actually going to defend Gage here.

As he himself said about his mosque experience: "Worldwide and perhaps in the US as well, Muslims have born the brunt of the 9/11 "false flag" operation. They are more aware than most in America of the true nature of the deceptive controlled demolitions. We are seeking ways to empower them to empower us through their silent support."

They (ae911truth) are seeking new support from the most probable sources. They think, that muslims in general have been mistreated in the aftermath of 9/11, so there might be fertile ground to plant the 9/11 truth seed, because there might be an already supportive environment towards blaming the US government.

In my mind, they are simply (and shamefully) focusing their efforts in order to cash in more. I see nothing anti-semitic there.

[NutCracker]

What the hell is "standard truther lore"? and where has a Twoofilious Twoofer such as myself ever referenced these sources?


Twoofies don't reference sources, they parrot them.

Thank you.

[funk de fino]

I wouldn't expect them to do a damn thing about it since this is essentially all you've ever done from the day you started posting.

You cling to semantics because it's all you have left. Much like this tenacious grip you keep by associating any questioning of the official story with anti-semitism.

Feel free to address just that.

The irony is unbelievable after your treatment of Triforcharity.

It's not semantics. You made a completely false claim and are too childish to back down.

[RedIbis]

RedIbis loves to pick on the Jewish people.

If that's not anti-semitism then he's lost his mind.

So true. You should have seen the way I picked on my little brother when we were younger. Of course that all stopped when he grew up.

[RedIbis]

The irony is unbelievable after your treatment of Triforcharity.

It's not semantics. You made a completely false claim and are too childish to back down.

Did he ever verify his claims like he said he was going to?

[funk de fino]

You are on the right track here. There wasn't any plan to start a "truth movement" by any group of people. Many of those who first came up with popular truther theories were anti-semitic. But a fact is, that all of them were not.

For example, Jared Israel (http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/jared/treason.htm) came up with the NORAD stand down theory, which is still largely supported by almost every member of the TM. But Jared Israel is a strong supporter of Israel and an avid opposer of any anti-semitic conspiracy theories.

Griffin supports Jared Israel's NORAD stand down theories. Does this mean now, that Griffin is not anti-semitic after all? Of course not, neither does him quoting Bollyn make him anti-semitic.

People here have to understand that these TM leaders want these theories, regardless of the people who came up with them. In many (or most) occasions they may not even know who first came up with these ideas. They just know that this or that theory fits their world view, and they adopt that theory.

Of course, there are some shady occasions when Jones hangs out with Bollyn, probably well aware of his background. Him and Griffin could at least make it more clear, that they support the theories, not the people behind them.

But in general, the entire movement can not be labeled anti-semitic just because many theories they support have originated from anti-semites, because many theories they support did not originate from anti-semites. This movement simply picks up theories they like. Even if we erased all the anti-semites from the history of 9/11 TM, there would still be a 9/11 TM. There are always people, who don't buy the "official explanations" and look for something different. Anti-semites may be well represented in this category, but they do not represent the entire population of people, who doubt the government.

If some regular TM guy claims the towers fell into their footprints, does he have to know that a guy called Jim McMichael first came up with this idea, which was then copied by Eric Hufschmid and Jim Hoffman, which was then adopted by Griffin after he researched for more evidence after reading the Paul Thompson timeline? Can we now claim, that because this regular TM guy had read a Griffin book and consequently claimed the towers fell into their footprints, that he must retract this claim because Jim McMichael might have been anti-semitic? This TM guy probably has no idea who this Jim McMichael guy is, heck, even Griffin probably has no clue! They subscribe to the ideas!

This is very complicated. Although many representatives of the TM fit the description, and they probably should know more about the origins, it's not all that simple folks. But I must say I think it's healthy for every member of the TM (and debunker alike) to understand, that these theories started very early, and they were mostly started by people who were very opposed to anything "official" to begin with. They used this as an opportunity to spread their world views.

I agree with a lot of this post, but when it is pointed out that the sources for a lot of the claims are from bigotted, racist scumbags, the ordinary TM guy should admit it, say he is opposed to their views, if not their claims. Not just pretend it is not true that there were and still are anti-semites who were major players in the "movement" That is what Red is doing here. Trying to claim that Bollyn is persona non grata when he has been directly linked on this site by a truther in the last week or so. He gets so tied up in his web, he makes false claims about NIST then does not have the cahonies to back down.

While I do not thnk Red is an anti semite in the slightest, I fail to see why he can say that Silverstein was lying through his teeth without explaining why he would accuse this man of being part of the grand conspiracy with zero evidence and just the feeling he is lying. Red gives posters here who get a bit obssessed with this, the ammunition they need. It's almost like he wants it to be dragged down to that level so he can feign indignation and avoid the real issue.

You will note he is now avoiding his bombs in the basement story.

[funk de fino]

Did he ever verify his claims like he said he was going to?

That makes no difference to your claim there or your claim here. They were both false claims. You were too stubborn to admit your were wrong. The worst techs I have ever worked with are those who steadfastly refuse to admit mistakes. They are dangerous. You do not even have the frailities of youth to blame for this.

When did Willie start with the bombs theory Red?

So true. You should have seen the way I picked on my little brother when we were younger. Of course that all stopped when he grew up.

Maybe he can help you with your present problem.

[Dave Rogers]

Did he ever verify his claims like he said he was going to?

Remind me where he said that.

Dave

[johnny karate]

I wouldn't expect them to do a damn thing about it since this is essentially all you've ever done from the day you started posting.

No, they won't do anything about it because observing that someone is a liar after they've told a lie is not against the rules. You told a demonstrable lie, therefore you are a liar.

You cling to semantics because it's all you have left. Much like this tenacious grip you keep by associating any questioning of the official story with anti-semitism.

Semantics has nothing to do with it. Words like "wrong" and "only" have specific meanings not open to interpretation, particularly in the context you used them.

Feel free to address just that.

A laughably ironic request considering the scores of posts and questions you've left unaddressed.

But I am always happy to argue the facts with you, Red. Contrary to your implication, it is in fact you that it is near impossible to get to engage any kind of meaningful debate due to your pathological tendency to evade and flee.

And to that point, per the OP, I submit to you that 9/11 conspiracy theories have connections to anti-Semitism. I'm happy to cite sources, if you so desire. Let's see if you can come up with a more substantiative response this time than just saying "Wrong".

[cyclonic]

The worst anti-semite in history doesn't believe in 911truth.

WARNING!!! VERY BAD PROFANITIES IN SUBTITLES!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgHx0wD2vec

[Scott Sommers]

Well, I never saw this coming, but I am actually going to defend Gage here.

As he himself said about his mosque experience: "Worldwide and perhaps in the US as well, Muslims have born the brunt of the 9/11 "false flag" operation. They are more aware than most in America of the true nature of the deceptive controlled demolitions. We are seeking ways to empower them to empower us through their silent support."

They (ae911truth) are seeking new support from the most probable sources. They think, that muslims in general have been mistreated in the aftermath of 9/11, so there might be fertile ground to plant the 9/11 truth seed, because there might be an already supportive environment towards blaming the US government.

In my mind, they are simply (and shamefully) focusing their efforts in order to cash in more. I see nothing anti-semitic there.

What would be disagreeing with? Gage and others are preying on an audience that's susceptible to his message. They're susceptible for all kinds of reasons. One might be the false perception that somehow all Muslims are responsible and the discrimiination that comes with that. It might be that for historical reasons, the idea that Isreal and an international Jewish conspiracy blames Muslims for bad things they never did seems reasonable to some - but certainly not all, or even many - Muslims. Kevin Barrett would be one of these, but I can give the names of others that you can meet on Facebook.

It's clear that Gage and his gang are moving off shore. There simply are no more than a couple of Americans they can recruit to their money-making 911 venture. Who else would they aim their targets at? French structural engineers? Punk rock kids in Birmingham?

The ideology of 911 Truth sprung from the suggestion that Isreal was behind it. You still get questions about this popping up here. Just because some kid in New Jersey doesn't realize why Kevin Barrett claims some hijackers are still alive doesn't mean his repeating the story makes it any less an anti-Semitic remark. It's all packaged in their and this is the only audience left for Gage for these guys.

By the way, on Facebook, the off shore Truthers regularly claim that American Truthers like Avery are Jewish shills.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Well since Bush is Jewish of course I believe he was in on it.

BTW, here is Red's source for the "Bush is a jew" claim:

http://www.erichufschmid.net/TFC/Crypto-Zionists.htm

"One thing I discovered is that George W. Bush is a devoted student of the Jewish Talmud, just as were Marx, Lenin, Trotsky, and Stalin."
texemarrs.com/george_w_bush_zionist_double_agent.htm

If Texe Marrs is correct, the Bush family are Crypto Jews. There also accusations that President Eisenhower and Prime Minister Winston Churchill were, also. Many people believe that Adolf Hitler was part Jewish, as well as many of his top Nazis. The Rockefeller family is also suspected of being Crypto Jews.




I wasn't aware you were an Eric Hufschmid fan, Red.

[A W Smith]

Methodist's are teaching the Talmud now? who knew!?

http://www.adherents.com/people/pb/George_W_Bush.html

[RedIbis]

BTW, here is Red's source for the "Bush is a jew" claim:

http://www.erichufschmid.net/TFC/Crypto-Zionists.htm




I wasn't aware you were an Eric Hufschmid fan, Red.

I make an obvious joke and you promote a bigot's website. Well done.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I make an obvious joke and you promote a bigot's website. Well done.

No, it wasn't obvious. Not coming from you. You come in making numerous claims that are variously ignorant, absurd, completely without evidentiary basis or all of the above and we're supposed to be able to tell when you're not being serious?

No plane hit the pentagon, magic thermite or silent explosives brought down the towers, WTC7 wasn't on fire, fire can't hurt steel if it was, no plane crashed in Shanksville, victim phone calls were faked, Israelis spies were sent to observe the results, and on and on and on.. and oh, Bush is a jew.

There isn't any of the above statements that are less stupid and ignorant than the others.

And it wasn't me who promoted that hateful bigots website, it was you again. It is you who has spent more than four thousand posts here at JREF promoting that hateful bigots theories (http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2008/11/nope-no-holocaust-deniers-here.html):

Eric Hufschmid was the first American to publish a book about 9-11 Troof, called Painful Questions, which was released in 2002. Eric might be called the godfather of the American 9-11 Truth Movement. And Eric is a Holocaust Denier.

Eric Hufschmid's work was cited by David Ray Griffin in the New Pearl Harbor, and by Sofia Shafquat and Brad Waddell in 9-11 Mysteries.

So you come along and artfully inform us that Bush is a jew. So I googled it and within seconds found to my complete and utter lack of surprise that you are spewing bilge from from the same malignant racist that thought up most everything else you've came up with.

Why are you such a fan of anti-semitic hate-speech, Red?

[johnny karate]

Yeah, I think he's got you there, Red.

Truth be told, I was pretty sure you were joking, but when you make outlandish claims without substantiation or just flat out lie when it suits you, you can't expect everyone to always tell when you're attempting humor.

Maybe in the future you could be a little clearer about which of the things you post that you didn't intend to be taken seriously, otherwise it can be hard to tell.

[9/11 Chewy Defense]

So true. You should have seen the way I picked on my little brother when we were younger. Of course that all stopped when he grew up.

I wouldn't doubt that your little Bro kicked your tail after you abused him when he was little.

What goes around comes around!

Red,

Do you have evidence for anything pertaining to 9/11?

[deep]

Why are you such a fan of anti-semitic hate-speech, Red?


Uhh, did you already forget that he was joking?

[johnny karate]

Uhh, did you already forget that he was joking?

Perhaps he was lying when he said he was joking. It wouldn't be the first lie he's told in this thread. When you establish yourself as dishonest, other people tend to not take anything you say at face value.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Uhh, did you already forget that he was joking?

I'm going to respond with what Johnny Karate just said, since he said it so well:

Truth be told, I was pretty sure you were joking, but when you make outlandish claims without substantiation or just flat out lie when it suits you, you can't expect everyone to always tell when you're attempting humor.

[deep]

I'm going to respond with what Johnny Karate just said, since he said it so well:

Truth be told, I was pretty sure you were joking, but when you make outlandish claims without substantiation or just flat out lie when it suits you, you can't expect everyone to always tell when you're attempting humor.


Regardless of your initial interpretation, he clarified that it was a joke.


And it wasn't me who promoted that hateful bigots website, it was you again.


You posted the link, not Red. You posted a quote from the page, not Red.

I doubt Red would even waste his time reading something like that - I certainly wouldn't.

[16.5]

I doubt Red would even waste his time reading something like that - I certainly wouldn't.

I dunno, Red posted Willie R's obvious lies about explosions this very morning.

And Red has visceral hatred toward Silverstein.

So I'm torn, on the one hand Red never actually makes a claim, but on the other hand, when he does come close to making a claim, you can always hear Horst Wessel-Lied playing faintly in the background, so.....

[deep]

I dunno, Red posted Willie R's obvious lies about explosions this very morning.


Did he post anything about "crypto jews"? If not, I don't see how that's relevant.

[NutCracker]

I make an obvious joke and you promote a bigot's website. Well done.

You might want to work on your humour a bit.

[ref]

The ideology of 911 Truth sprung from the suggestion that Isreal was behind it.

I have to disagree again. A couple of years ago I researched the origins of various truther claims, and the people behind them.

Who were among the first more influential "truthers"?

Alex Jones, of course. He never blames Israel.

Peter Meyer, two days after the attacks, wrote about "The World Trade Center Bombing (http://www.billstclair.com/Serendipity/wtcm040419/wtc_0913.html)". Although he otherwise promotes anti-semitic content, he did not blame Israel, but US.

The Americans obligingly provide the appropriate training where needed. (Of course the Arabs do not know that this is really an American operation.) Careful planning and coordination are also needed, not the haphazard planning which Arab militants have exhibited before, such as in the previous botched attack against the WTC. Americans provide the necessary expertise in this area, and tell the Arabs exactly what to do, when and how. Unknown to the latter, the former have also placed high explosives by the structural supports of the WTC towers, since they know that the impacts of the planes will not be enough to bring down the towers, and their plan is complete destruction of both towers.


Jared Israel, four days after the attacks, came up with the idea about the NORAD stand-down: "Criminal Negligence or Treason? (http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/jared/treason.htm)". Jared strongly opposes any anti-semitic theories, and is a strong supported of Israel, so no blaming of Israel here either.


Carol A. Valentine started a lot of theories with her article "Operation 911: No Suicide Pilots (http://www.public-action.com/911/robotplane.html)", and yes she takes jabs at Israel and is anti-semitic.


But then, only a month after the attacks appeared the most influental WTC demolition article, which has influenced numerous high profile truthers, "Muslims Suspend the Laws of Physics (http://web.archive.org/web/20020221070838/http:/world.care2.com/jmcmichael/files/index.html)" by Jim McMichael. Not a word about Israel.


Let move on to March, 2002. The most popular 9/11 Truth book ever is released: "9/11: The Big Lie" by Thierry Meyssan. A huge success. Tops the french sales charts, translated to 28 languages. Starts numerous new theories, like the claims that there was no plane at the Pentagon. Meyssan's success influences the likes of Hufschmid and others. And who does Meyssan blame? US Government, not Israel.

These abovementioned people were the strong influences in the very early stages of 9/11 truth. They planted the seeds, made the claims, came up with theories that we still hear today. And by large, most of them did not blame Israel, but the US Government.

So I really find it difficult to agree with the claim, that the ideology of 911 Truth sprung from the suggestion that Israel was behind it. Some people believed that, and many people later adopted that mindset, but it was not a dominant view among these early influental TM characters in the very beginning.

Interesting discussion by the way, rare in here these days. :)

[Scott Sommers]

I have to disagree again. A couple of years ago I researched the origins of various truther claims, and the people behind them.

Who were among the first more influential "truthers"?

Alex Jones, of course. He never blames Israel.

Peter Meyer, two days after the attacks, wrote about "The World Trade Center Bombing (http://www.billstclair.com/Serendipity/wtcm040419/wtc_0913.html)". Although he otherwise promotes anti-semitic content, he did not blame Israel, but US.




Jared Israel, four days after the attacks, came up with the idea about the NORAD stand-down: "Criminal Negligence or Treason? (http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/jared/treason.htm)". Jared strongly opposes any anti-semitic theories, and is a strong supported of Israel, so no blaming of Israel here either.


Carol A. Valentine started a lot of theories with her article "Operation 911: No Suicide Pilots (http://www.public-action.com/911/robotplane.html)", and yes she takes jabs at Israel and is anti-semitic.


But then, only a month after the attacks appeared the most influental WTC demolition article, which has influenced numerous high profile truthers, "Muslims Suspend the Laws of Physics (http://web.archive.org/web/20020221070838/http:/world.care2.com/jmcmichael/files/index.html)" by Jim McMichael. Not a word about Israel.


Let move on to March, 2002. The most popular 9/11 Truth book ever is released: "9/11: The Big Lie" by Thierry Meyssan. A huge success. Tops the french sales charts, translated to 28 languages. Starts numerous new theories, like the claims that there was no plane at the Pentagon. Meyssan's success influences the likes of Hufschmid and others. And who does Meyssan blame? US Government, not Israel.

These abovementioned people were the strong influences in the very early stages of 9/11 truth. They planted the seeds, made the claims, came up with theories that we still hear today. And by large, most of them did not blame Israel, but the US Government.

So I really find it difficult to agree with the claim, that the ideology of 911 Truth sprung from the suggestion that Israel was behind it. Some people believed that, and many people later adopted that mindset, but it was not a dominant view among these early influental TM characters in the very beginning.

Interesting discussion by the way, rare in here these days. :)

Thank you for putting in the work. I guess I'm wrong and have been operating under false assumptions. My belief has always been the initial voices of conspiracy following 911 were from the 'blame the Isrealis' crowd. I think part of my confusion comes from joining in the discourse so late in its development and subsequently missing first-hand experience with earlier debates. I appreciate you taking the time so I that no longer make that mistake.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Did he post anything about "crypto jews"?

Yes he did. He said Bush was a jew. Did you miss that part?

[ref]

Thank you for putting in the work. I guess I'm wrong and have been operating under false assumptions. My belief has always been the initial voices of conspiracy following 911 were from the 'blame the Isrealis' crowd. I think part of my confusion comes from joining in the discourse so late in its development and subsequently missing first-hand experience with earlier debates. I appreciate you taking the time so I that no longer make that mistake.

No problem :) and thanks yourself, rational people like you have the ability to learn, and re-evaluate their previous assumptions. Something the truthers are very rarely capable of. :rolleyes:

[MikeW]

My belief has always been the initial voices of conspiracy following 911 were from the 'blame the Isrealis' crowd.
There are plenty of antisemitic truthers around, but as ref said, they're just one faction, not the majority. And if you follow them online you'll see they spend much of their time attacking other truthers for not playing up The Israeli Connections, exactly because most people don't share their views.

[RedIbis]

Yes he did. He said Bush was a jew. Did you miss that part?

He's got you there Deep. I did say that and I also said,

"My vociferous criticism of Condaleeza Rice, Rumsfeld, Cheney and Giuliani are all examples of my rampant anti-semitism."

Which makes just as much sense.

[Scott Sommers]

There are plenty of antisemitic truthers around, but as ref said, they're just one faction, not the majority. And if you follow them online you'll see they spend much of their time attacking other truthers for not playing up The Israeli Connections, exactly because most people don't share their views.

This is all good to know and I understand how my initial suggestion was wrong. My point was that the North American scene is only part of the picture and it's pretty much dried up as a source of new recruits and expanded money. It's frequently commented that Gage is moving off shore looking for an audience in Europe and Australia. My mistaken belief that the origins of 911 Truth was in an Israeli Connection lead me to believe it had originally been designed for a similar purpose and had only to appeal to its origins to attract those Muslims who might already be inclined that way.

I understand now that in many ways, 911 Truth has had to be remade to appeal to this audience. This is probably the reason why its American proponents are the nuttier of the Truthers.

[CHF]

I think this thread has drifted fairly off-course from the OP and into the issue of just how much anti-Semitism is found in the Truth Movement. Some say a little, some say a lot.

I accept that most truthers are NOT anti-Semites but at the same time also accept the obvious fact that anti-Semites have played a role in the TM that is vastly disproportionate to their numbers (an embarrassing reality that truthers prefer to sidestep rather than acknowledge).

The question is: why is this? Why does the TM find itself overlapping on so many fronts with the ideas of vile people like Holocaust Deniers?

IMO, it's not a matter of truthers necessarily being anti-Semites so much as it is a matter of logical kinship - a shared paranoid mentality where a tiny elite somehow infiltrate and control the global levers of power in media, entertainment, government, law-enforcement, business, finance, education, and engineering.

If truthers are going to believe in such a world-wide conspiracy (as they apparently do) then why on earth wouldn't they find themselves alongside the most popular such conspiracy theory in history?

I mean given what the truthers' ridiculous world-wide 9/11 conspiracy calls for, what group fit the bill better than the Jewish people?

So on what grounds can truthers purge the anti-Semites from their ranks? Their logic is just as stupid.

[Par]

Making groundless nonsense accusations Silvertien seems to me like anti-Semitism.I've criticized [Silvertien] many times. I've criticized Richard Myers and Giuliani...
I also said, "My vociferous criticism of Condaleeza Rice, Rumsfeld, Cheney and Giuliani...


No. Making groundless nonsense accusations is not criticism.

I also said, "My vociferous criticism of Condaleeza Rice, Rumsfeld, Cheney and Giuliani are all examples of my rampant anti-semitism." Which makes just as much sense.I've criticized LS many times. I've criticized Richard Myers and Giuliani as well, but I've been yet to be called anti-Italian or anti-Caucasian. Now why is that?


For the same reason caricaturing a white man as an ape wouldn’t be racist, but doing the same to a black man probably would, I imagine.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

He's got you there Deep. I did say that and I also said,

"My vociferous criticism of Condaleeza Rice, Rumsfeld, Cheney and Giuliani are all examples of my rampant anti-semitism."

Which makes just as much sense.

To truthers it does.

Why don't we get your fellow travellers Magz, Kageki and 9-11 Investigator in here (if we can pull him away from his holocaust denial goat rodeo in the history section) and ask them if Bush, Cheney, Rice and Guiliani are all jews?

[tfk]

I've found the extraordinarily high percentage of crypto-jew-haters that I've encountered amongst the truthers to be astonishing. And depressing.

They seem to be able to keep it out of the conversation for awhile. But eventually, it slips out.

I've been posting for awhile on the same forum that (unfortunately) bequeathed us bill smith. Almost every one of the dozen or so posters there have expressed anti-jew vitriol when they get excited. "Anti-Zionist" when they remember their lines, of course.

All the while, protesting that they aren't "anti-semitic".

"But the filthy jews bring it on themselves, of course." Or some such trash.

I put out a constant effort to not lump them all together. But the correlation coefficient seems to me to be in the 80th percentile or above.

Whenever I run across an anti-truther who starts ranting about "rag-heads all being terrorists", I've constantly objected. I strongly suspect that most of the posters here have done the same.

I agree with some of the others, that there is not enough effort on the part of the "thoughtful" truthers (assuming that a few do exist) to isolate themselves from the racists.


Tom

[tfk]

Red,


I've criticized LS many times. I've criticized Richard Myers and Giuliani as well, but I've been yet to be called anti-Italian or anti-Caucasian. Now why is that?


It depends on the basis of your criticism.

If it is criticism of these individuals for things that they've done, that's one thing.

If it attributes their motivation & the things that they've done to their "Jew, Italian or Caucasian heritage", then that's a smear of a different color.

In fact, if you were to propose a "giant male, Caucasian conspiracy to control our society", you'd have a lot more evidence. And you'd be right, to a certain degree. A degree that is, thankfully, plummeting.

Although this "male, Caucasian conspiracy" bore no resemblance to the conspiracy that CTers envision. It was simply an ugly "conspiracy by exclusion", rather than the hierarchical, organized Illuminati, PNAC, NWO, Zionist, [blah, blah] nonsense.

Now, once the present generation has fulfilled its genetic obligations by having the common decency to die, I believe that it'll take a lot (not all) of the last remains of racism with it.

[One of the bases of my optimism for the future.]

Tom

[johnny karate]

He's got you there Deep. I did say that and I also said,

"My vociferous criticism of Condaleeza Rice, Rumsfeld, Cheney and Giuliani are all examples of my rampant anti-semitism."

Which makes just as much sense.

I'm sorry, did I miss the part where you suddenly decided to be internally consistent in your statements? You refuse to lay out exactly what you believe happened on 9/11, and constantly play verbal shell games, so I don't see where "making sense" out your posts comes into play.

I don't personally think you're an anti-Semite, but you definitely espouse contradictory ideas, so someone thinking you might actually be anti-Semitic is not too far beyond the pale. If only you were to clarify your overall position, and engage in discussion honestly, it would clear up these misperceptions. But you refuse to do that, so I guess you'll just have to sleep in the bed you've made.

More to the point, your flat-out denial that anti-Semitism has a place within the Truth Movement casts you in an even more suspect light, and cuts right to the heart of the argument CHF is making in this thread.

[WildCat]

These abovementioned people were the strong influences in the very early stages of 9/11 truth. They planted the seeds, made the claims, came up with theories that we still hear today. And by large, most of them did not blame Israel, but the US Government.
Well I never said that they blamed Israel, just that the truth movement was founded by anti-Semites and Holocaust deniers, and it certainly appears to be the case.

Early on, their knee-jerk reaction was to side with the Arabs in fighting the Zionists. Later on some split off to blame the Mossad.

[Eyeron]

Actually for me this is the first time I've heard that the 911 cult is founded by Anti-semites. In all the years I've seen discussion about 911 conspiracies the only anti-semitism I've seen is when people go on about the dancing Jews means it was a Jewish conspiracy to destroy America crap.

[WildCat]

Actually for me this is the first time I've heard that the 911 cult is founded by Anti-semites. In all the years I've seen discussion about 911 conspiracies the only anti-semitism I've seen is when people go on about the dancing Jews means it was a Jewish conspiracy to destroy America crap.
We have a guy here (A-Train) who thinks Mossad agents parachuted out of the airplanes (from the wheel wells no less!) right before they crashed into the towers.

[ref]

Well I never said that they blamed Israel, just that the truth movement was founded by anti-Semites and Holocaust deniers, and it certainly appears to be the case.


Just to be more precise, who in your opinion were the people who founded the truth movement, can you name these people? Just to know we are talking about the same people here. :)

[ref]

I accept that most truthers are NOT anti-Semites but at the same time also accept the obvious fact that anti-Semites have played a role in the TM that is vastly disproportionate to their numbers (an embarrassing reality that truthers prefer to sidestep rather than acknowledge).

I agree, that the likes of Carol Valentine, Christopher Bollyn and Eric Hufschmid have had a disproportionate role in the TM. Truthers could at least admit, that many theories that they are still repeating originated from these people, and that they don't accept their anti-semitism. Us debunkers can also admit, that even if it wasn't for any of these anti-semites in the TM, we would still have a TM that would claim equally absurd things.

The question is: why is this? Why does the TM find itself overlapping on so many fronts with the ideas of vile people like Holocaust Deniers?

IMO, it's not a matter of truthers necessarily being anti-Semites so much as it is a matter of logical kinship - a shared paranoid mentality where a tiny elite somehow infiltrate and control the global levers of power in media, entertainment, government, law-enforcement, business, finance, education, and engineering.

It's the flawed logic, weak critical thinking and gullibility. They share the tendency to fall for exciting, different, non-mainstream, shady theories. They share the ability to see the evidence in a certain light, that somehow supports their views. And as a consequence they share the lack of trust to officials, politicians, and corporate media.

If truthers are going to believe in such a world-wide conspiracy (as they apparently do) then why on earth wouldn't they find themselves alongside the most popular such conspiracy theory in history?

I mean given what the truthers' ridiculous world-wide 9/11 conspiracy calls for, what group fit the bill better than the Jewish people?

There are many in TM who blame the Jews. There are more who don't. There were many Holocaust deniers who invented TM theories and played a role in the early TM, but there were also many who aren't Holocaust deniers and who played a huge role. This kind of event was a like magnet for wacky theorists and naturally also for Holocaust deniers, it was just another opportunity for them to blame the Jews. So naturally we see a disproportionate amount of Holocaust deniers in the movement. It would be more strange if we didn't.

So on what grounds can truthers purge the anti-Semites from their ranks? Their logic is just as stupid.

What the truthers could do, is to admit that Holocaust deniers played a certain role in the early TM, and still exist as a faction. They should admit, that this and this theory originates from this and this Holocaust denying person. Then they should deny any sympathy towards the person, and separately evaluate the theories that originate from these people. If they deny the sympathy, but accept the theories, fine. Then we have another person with flawed logic and weak critical thinking. But I wouldn't pull the anti-semitism card after that. We should deal with the people as people, and theories as theories. Of course, if a theory originates from a known Holocaust denier, it's a pretty safe bet that the theory is flawed. :)

[Eyeron]

The problem is they'll never be able to admit it. No antisemite can ever admit to antisemitism. They'll automatically lose any credibility they have and will only get e little support for their theories.

[WildCat]

Just to be more precise, who in your opinion were the people who founded the truth movement, can you name these people? Just to know we are talking about the same people here. :)
Wasn't it you who provided a timeline of the earliest 9/11 conspiracy theories? Just about all of them by anti-Semites and Holocaust deniers like Carol Valentine?

[MaGZ]

By now we're all familiar with the well-documented Jew haters in the truther ranks like the American Free Press, Christopher Bollyn, Eric Hufschmid, and those who spread the story about how 4,000 Jews didn't show up to work at the WTC on 9/11.

While the reaction of most truthers is to dismiss these people as crackpots, racists or "disinfo" (unless you're DR Griffin in which case you quote them in your books), it's hard to see why truthers are so quick to throw these people overboard.

I mean given what truthers believe, how can they NOT suspect the Jews?

The essence of most conspiracy theories is that there is a small group of powerful people who manipulate world events in order to:

- make money
- kill people
- plunge the world into war and chaos
- unite the world under a single flag
- all of the above

Now consider the fact that Jews are a relatively small group of people (15 million worldwide) who tend to place great emphasis on education and person success.

This has resulted in Jews being a very academic, educated, successful and organized people. They are disproportionately represented in fields like business, finance, banking, politics, science, academia, entertainment, media etc. - every field that you'd need in order to influence world events and pull off some vast diabolical plot.

Seriously - the Jews embody everything that a conspiracy calls for!

With such positions of influence in so many fields, it's no wonder why conspiracy theorists have been "connecting the dots" for centuries and blaming the Jews for all that goes wrong in the world.

I've personally talked to truthers who rant against the Rothschilds, "the bankers," and "the elites" but when asked to define "them" there's an awkward silence. It's as if we both know what he wants to say, but he knows how bad it sounds.

The well-known Jew-haters in the TM aren't some sort of abberation or fringe group. Their beliefs are the logical outcome of the twisted mindset that truthers have.

Three words:

Israeli Art Students

[MaGZ]

Didn't start that way with me. You're not generalizing or stereotyping now are you? Because that's not nice.

When I first heard them on 9/11 insinuate it was middle eastern terrorists I thought it was kind of racist to do so before anyone knew anything. I remembered the same thing happened with Oklahoma City with the first reports. We all know how that turned out. Someone from INSIDE this country. INSIDE.

Steven Emerson was one of those who early on claimed the Oklahoma City bombing was the work of middle eastern terrorists. We all know who is behind Steven Emerson.
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1443

[MaGZ]

To illustrate how poor your logic is and what is wrong this whole line of thinking: I didn't need Hufschmid or Bollyn to tell me about bombs in the basement, I was able to interview the source myself and from what I can tell, he's no anti-semite.

As much as you hope so, bombs in the basement and evidence of explosives doesn't begin nor end with Hufschmid or Bollyn, two long forgotten numbskulls, kept on life support only here on jref and nowhere else. That says a lot more about you than about this fantasy truth movement you keep harping on.

There were no bombs in the basements. However, the explosions were real. They were caused by exploding fuel going down the service elevators when the planes hit the buildings.

[MaGZ]

Face it RedIbis, the entire truth movement was founded by anti-semites. Without the anti-semites there would be no truth movement. They were an essential part of it, kind of like having a fact is an essential start to that Fact Movement of yours. Have you found a fact yet?

Wrong.

Thierry Meyssan wrote the first book questioning 9/11. He was an anti-racist activist.

[MaGZ]

There is a poster from the 911TM side of the fence posting about "dual citizen traitors who have covered up 911"



Philip Zelikow?

[MaGZ]

You are on the right track here. There wasn't any plan to start a "truth movement" by any group of people. Many of those who first came up with popular truther theories were anti-semitic. But a fact is, that all of them were not.

For example, Jared Israel (http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/jared/treason.htm) came up with the NORAD stand down theory, which is still largely supported by almost every member of the TM. But Jared Israel is a strong supporter of Israel and an avid opposer of any anti-semitic conspiracy theories.

Griffin supports Jared Israel's NORAD stand down theories. Does this mean now, that Griffin is not anti-semitic after all? Of course not, neither does him quoting Bollyn make him anti-semitic.

People here have to understand that these TM leaders want these theories, regardless of the people who came up with them. In many (or most) occasions they may not even know who first came up with these ideas. They just know that this or that theory fits their world view, and they adopt that theory.

Of course, there are some shady occasions when Jones hangs out with Bollyn, probably well aware of his background. Him and Griffin could at least make it more clear, that they support the theories, not the people behind them.

But in general, the entire movement can not be labeled anti-semitic just because many theories they support have originated from anti-semites, because many theories they support did not originate from anti-semites. This movement simply picks up theories they like. Even if we erased all the anti-semites from the history of 9/11 TM, there would still be a 9/11 TM. There are always people, who don't buy the "official explanations" and look for something different. Anti-semites may be well represented in this category, but they do not represent the entire population of people, who doubt the government.

If some regular TM guy claims the towers fell into their footprints, does he have to know that a guy called Jim McMichael first came up with this idea, which was then copied by Eric Hufschmid and Jim Hoffman, which was then adopted by Griffin after he researched for more evidence after reading the Paul Thompson timeline? Can we now claim, that because this regular TM guy had read a Griffin book and consequently claimed the towers fell into their footprints, that he must retract this claim because Jim McMichael might have been anti-semitic? This TM guy probably has no idea who this Jim McMichael guy is, heck, even Griffin probably has no clue! They subscribe to the ideas!

This is very complicated. Although many representatives of the TM fit the description, and they probably should know more about the origins, it's not all that simple folks. But I must say I think it's healthy for every member of the TM (and debunker alike) to understand, that these theories started very early, and they were mostly started by people who were very opposed to anything "official" to begin with. They used this as an opportunity to spread their world views.

Excellent post. Nominated

[MaGZ]

What would be disagreeing with? Gage and others are preying on an audience that's susceptible to his message. They're susceptible for all kinds of reasons. One might be the false perception that somehow all Muslims are responsible and the discrimiination that comes with that. It might be that for historical reasons, the idea that Isreal and an international Jewish conspiracy blames Muslims for bad things they never did seems reasonable to some - but certainly not all, or even many - Muslims. Kevin Barrett would be one of these, but I can give the names of others that you can meet on Facebook.

It's clear that Gage and his gang are moving off shore. There simply are no more than a couple of Americans they can recruit to their money-making 911 venture. Who else would they aim their targets at? French structural engineers? Punk rock kids in Birmingham?

The ideology of 911 Truth sprung from the suggestion that Isreal was behind it. You still get questions about this popping up here. Just because some kid in New Jersey doesn't realize why Kevin Barrett claims some hijackers are still alive doesn't mean his repeating the story makes it any less an anti-Semitic remark. It's all packaged in their and this is the only audience left for Gage for these guys.

By the way, on Facebook, the off shore Truthers regularly claim that American Truthers like Avery are Jewish shills.

Has it been established that Dylan Avery is Jewish?

[Oliver]

Has it been established that Dylan Avery is Jewish?


No. Why would it matter? :confused:

[Scott Sommers]

Has it been established that Dylan Avery is Jewish?

I have no idea. I only know that Avery is accused of being a schill distracting people from the the real issue of the worldwide Jewish connection that brought about 911.

[Oliver]

I have no idea. I only know that Avery is accused of being a schill distracting people from the the real issue of the worldwide Jewish connection that brought about 911.


I don't understand MagZ's question here: If the OP claims that Truthers and antisemitism go hand in hand, how in the world could Avery [ "teh Jew" ] be an Israel-supporter and a Truther at the same time? :boggled:

[MaGZ]

I have to disagree again. A couple of years ago I researched the origins of various truther claims, and the people behind them.

Who were among the first more influential "truthers"?

Alex Jones, of course. He never blames Israel.

Peter Meyer, two days after the attacks, wrote about "The World Trade Center Bombing (http://www.billstclair.com/Serendipity/wtcm040419/wtc_0913.html)". Although he otherwise promotes anti-semitic content, he did not blame Israel, but US.




Jared Israel, four days after the attacks, came up with the idea about the NORAD stand-down: "Criminal Negligence or Treason? (http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/jared/treason.htm)". Jared strongly opposes any anti-semitic theories, and is a strong supported of Israel, so no blaming of Israel here either.


Carol A. Valentine started a lot of theories with her article "Operation 911: No Suicide Pilots (http://www.public-action.com/911/robotplane.html)", and yes she takes jabs at Israel and is anti-semitic.


But then, only a month after the attacks appeared the most influental WTC demolition article, which has influenced numerous high profile truthers, "Muslims Suspend the Laws of Physics (http://web.archive.org/web/20020221070838/http:/world.care2.com/jmcmichael/files/index.html)" by Jim McMichael. Not a word about Israel.


Let move on to March, 2002. The most popular 9/11 Truth book ever is released: "9/11: The Big Lie" by Thierry Meyssan. A huge success. Tops the french sales charts, translated to 28 languages. Starts numerous new theories, like the claims that there was no plane at the Pentagon. Meyssan's success influences the likes of Hufschmid and others. And who does Meyssan blame? US Government, not Israel.

These abovementioned people were the strong influences in the very early stages of 9/11 truth. They planted the seeds, made the claims, came up with theories that we still hear today. And by large, most of them did not blame Israel, but the US Government.

So I really find it difficult to agree with the claim, that the ideology of 911 Truth sprung from the suggestion that Israel was behind it. Some people believed that, and many people later adopted that mindset, but it was not a dominant view among these early influental TM characters in the very beginning.

Interesting discussion by the way, rare in here these days. :)

A list of facts/factoids that started the idea the Jews were behind 9/11.

* Israel's statement that all 4,000 Israelis in the WTC area were alive and well.

* Odigo warning

* Dancing Israelis in New Jersey

* Netanyahu says the 9/11 attacks were "good for Israel"

* Israel Art Student/Mossad revelations on Fox News in December 2001

[MaGZ]

To truthers it does.

Why don't we get your fellow travellers Magz, Kageki and 9-11 Investigator in here (if we can pull him away from his holocaust denial goat rodeo in the history section) and ask them if Bush, Cheney, Rice and Guiliani are all jews?

Here!

Bush, Cheney, Rice and Guiliani just promote the Jew's agenda.

[Oliver]

* Israel's statement that all 4,000 Israelis in the WTC area were alive and well.


Uh, so what? I mean the German Government reported about the German victims as well. What's so confusing about the fact that Governments publish statements regarding their citizens in case of a terrorist attack. I mean: seriously

* Odigo warning


The Odigo warnings were sent to Israelis ... in Israel, not Jews in the WTC. So what?
http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Odigo

* Dancing Israelis in New Jersey


What does a group of dancing Jewish Teenagers have to do with the Israeli Government? :confused:

* Netanyahu says the 9/11 attacks were "good for Israel"


Which seems to be pretty factual in light of getting rid of some of Israel's problems called "Muslim Terrorism" and "Saddam Hussein", is it not? :confused:

* Israel Art Student/Mossad revelations on Fox News in December 2001


Linky?

[Oliver]

Here!

Bush, Cheney, Rice and Guiliani just promote the Jew's agenda.


Which isn't a surprise to anyone given the close relations between the US and Israel ... even besides influential lobbies.

[MaGZ]

Uh, so what? I mean the German Government reported about the German victims as well. What's so confusing about the fact that Governments publish statements regarding their citizens in case of a terrorist attack. I mean: seriously




The Odigo warnings were sent to Israelis ... in Israel, not Jews in the WTC. So what?
http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Odigo




What does a group of dancing Jewish Teenagers have to do with the Israeli Government? :confused:




Which seems to be pretty factual in light of getting rid of some of Israel's problems called "Muslim Terrorism" and "Saddam Hussein", is it not? :confused:




Linky?

http://www.antiwar.com/israeli-files.php

[Oliver]

http://www.antiwar.com/israeli-files.php


No no, I presented some counter-facts right there in my last post, Mag. May I ask you to discredit those facts with counter-evidence of yours?

[MaGZ]

Uh, so what? I mean the German Government reported about the German victims as well. What's so confusing about the fact that Governments publish statements regarding their citizens in case of a terrorist attack. I mean: seriously




This was the genesis of the story all 4000 Israelis were warned of the attacks in advance and escaped the WTC destruction. This was picked up by Hezbollah media the next day and twisted into a report of an Israeli early warning.

[Oliver]

This was the genesis of the story all 4000 Israelis were warned of the attacks in advance and escaped the WTC destruction. This was picked up by Hezbollah media the next day and twisted into a report of an Israeli early warning.


Well, as far I remember, Jews actually died in the towers. So why would you trust Hezbollah more than the actual facts concerning Jewish deaths? :confused:

In other words, why didn't the Israeli Government manage to warn those Jews that actually died in the towers? :boggled:

[Oliver]

And what about the fact that the Odigo-Warning was send to Israelis rather than Jewish people within the WTC???
http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Odigo

[MaGZ]

The Odigo warnings were sent to Israelis ... in Israel, not Jews in the WTC. So what?

The Odigo warning was significant. It was likely sent by one of the Mossad agents when he saw the hijackers board the planes. The warning was just reported in Israel, others likely received it.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/911timeline/2001/wpost092801.html

"The Odigo service includes a feature called People Finder that allows users to seek out and contact others based on certain interests or demographics. Diamandis said Thursday that it was possible the attack warning was broadcast to other Odigo members, but the company has not received reports of other recipients of the message."

[MaGZ]

And what about the fact that the Odigo-Warning was send to Israelis rather than Jewish people within the WTC???
http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Odigo


"People Finder" was a life-saving application to some Jews in New York City on 9/11.

[Oliver]

The Odigo warning was significant. It was likely sent by one of the Mossad agents when he saw the hijackers board the planes. The warning was just reported in Israel, others likely received it.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/911timeline/2001/wpost092801.html

"The Odigo service includes a feature called People Finder that allows users to seek out and contact others based on certain interests or demographics. Diamandis said Thursday that it was possible the attack warning was broadcast to other Odigo members, but the company has not received reports of other recipients of the message."


So? How would a late warning indicate that Jews did 9/11?
I mean the German and the US did receive warnings concerning an immediate attack, too. Are they in it as well? :rolleyes:

They Tried to Warn Us: Foreign Intelligence Warnings Before 9/11 (http://www.historycommons.org/essay.jsp?article=essaytheytriedtowarnus)

[MaGZ]

So? How would a late warning indicate that Jews did 9/11?
I mean the German and the US did receive warnings concerning an immediate attack, too. Are they in it as well? :rolleyes:

They Tried to Warn Us: Foreign Intelligence Warnings Before 9/11 (http://www.historycommons.org/essay.jsp?article=essaytheytriedtowarnus)

The Jews did not do 9/11. The Israeli Mossad had the hijackers under surveillance. They reported to the CIA some of their findings and not others.

Israel allowed 9/11 to happen.

[MaGZ]

So? How would a late warning indicate that Jews did 9/11?
I mean the German and the US did receive warnings concerning an immediate attack, too. Are they in it as well? :rolleyes:

They Tried to Warn Us: Foreign Intelligence Warnings Before 9/11 (http://www.historycommons.org/essay.jsp?article=essaytheytriedtowarnus)

From you link:

"Also in late July 2001, the US was given a “concrete warning” from Argentina’s Jewish community. “An attack of major proportions” was planned against either the US, Argentina, or France. The information came from an unidentified intelligence agency."

So the Mossad knew.

[funk de fino]

Philip Zelikow?

No another supposed dual citizen. You know, the ones who are not dual citizens but idiots have to lie about it.

[funk de fino]

From you link:

"Also in late July 2001, the US was given a “concrete warning” from Argentina’s Jewish community. “An attack of major proportions” was planned against either the US, Argentina, or France. The information came from an unidentified intelligence agency."

So the Mossad knew.

Knew what specifically?

[MikeW]

"People Finder" was a life-saving application to some Jews in New York City on 9/11.
And you know that how, exactly? Do tell. Spell it out.

[Oliver]

The Jews did not do 9/11. The Israeli Mossad had the hijackers under surveillance. They reported to the CIA some of their findings and not others.

Israel allowed 9/11 to happen.


Well, but then the Germans and Americans did allow to let 9/11 happen as well, did they not?

As far I researched that specific topic of foreknowledge, a lot of Governments had pre-knowledge, but it was to vague to act on it. You're implying that the Israeli Government had specific knowledge, yet wasn't capable to warn the Jews that actually died in the towers. So what is it? Did Israel know more than others without sharing that information - or did they know as much as other Governments and tried to avert the dangers of an imminent attack just as other Governments tried to?

In other words: You are basically saying that all the Governments having knowledge of an imminent attack are involved in "letting it happen", are you not?

[TruthersLie]

Three words:

Israeli Art Students

4 words for you:

debunked a million times.

[Oliver]

From you link:

"Also in late July 2001, the US was given a “concrete warning” from Argentina’s Jewish community. “An attack of major proportions” was planned against either the US, Argentina, or France. The information came from an unidentified intelligence agency."

So the Mossad knew.


Well, that's cherry-picking, no? I mean the same level of immediate threat was known to several Governments, yet you choose to pick the Jewish ones, right? I mean I'm skeptical about Israel's policies as well, but your focus on Jewish involvement seems to be "out of the park", are they not?

[MaGZ]

Well, but then the Germans and Americans did allow to let 9/11 happen as well, did they not?

As far I researched that specific topic of foreknowledge, a lot of Governments had pre-knowledge, but it was to vague to act on it. You're implying that the Israeli Government had specific knowledge, yet wasn't capable to warn the Jews that actually died in the towers. So what is it? Did Israel know more than others without sharing that information - or did they know as much as other Governments and tried to avert the dangers of an imminent attack just as other Governments tried to?

In other words: You are basically saying that all the Governments having knowledge of an imminent attack are involved in "letting it happen", are you not?

Israel had day-to-day knowledge of the coming attacks via the Israeli Art Students/Spies. Other governments monitoring intelligence "noise" had an idea something big was going to happen but no specifics.

[Oliver]

Israel had day-to-day knowledge of the coming attacks via the Israeli Art Students/Spies. Other governments monitoring intelligence "noise" had an idea something big was going to happen but no specifics.


While we all know that Israels intelligence has a focus on Muslim extremist groups in light of their struggle, are you implying that they had more knowledge of an attack than they're willing to share with the US-intelligence?

In other words: What intelligence didn't the Israeli Mossad share with their US counterparts? And how are you capable to confirm that lack of US knowledge given the fact that some information is classified anyway? :confused:

[Par]

Israel had day-to-day knowledge of the coming attacks via the Israeli Art Students/Spies. Other governments monitoring intelligence "noise" had an idea something big was going to happen but no specifics.


I really wish I could intuit things out of the ether in this way. As it is I have to rely on this stinking enlightenment project.

[beachnut]

http://www.antiwar.com/israeli-files.php
How do you find all these dirt dumb neoNAZI web sites spewing lies? What happen to the moronic missile lie from the other bigoted white power web site? Why are the neoNAZI web sites so anti-intellectual?

[RedIbis]

How do you find all these dirt dumb neoNAZI web sites spewing lies? What happen to the moronic missile lie from the other bigoted white power web site? Why are the neoNAZI web sites so anti-intellectual?


Uh, antiwar.com is not a neo nazi site. It's one of the best, most comprehensive news sites reporting on any conflict across the globe. Your hair trigger response is dare I say, dirt dumb, to borrow your charming, little phrase.

[MikeW]

Why are truthers so bad with timelines?

The art students were in the US long before the vast majority of the hijackers (and detected and arrested before most of them arrived, too). For all the articles written on them, and all the data available, no-one has yet pointed to any evidence that places the art students and the hijackers in close proximity at the same time, let alone showed the students "tracking" or "monitoring" them.

Seems like a relevant point to me. And yet truthers won't even acknowledge it exists. Why's that, I wonder? Are they waiting for (lying fraud) Chris Bollyn to tell them what to think?

[MaGZ]

While we all know that Israels intelligence has a focus on Muslim extremist groups in light of their struggle, are you implying that they had more knowledge of an attack than they're willing to share with the US-intelligence?

In other words: What intelligence didn't the Israeli Mossad share with their US counterparts? And how are you capable to confirm that lack of US knowledge given the fact that some information is classified anyway? :confused:

The Mossad had AQ under surveillance in Hamburg, Germany. When they came to America; the Mossad moved with them with the help of the CIA. Able Danger suggested this when Atta was connected with the AQ cell in New Jersey before he came to the US.

The Mossad knew when the attacks would happen and what planes were involved when they learned which flights were booked by the hijackers over the Internet at Kinko's in Florida.

[RedIbis]

Why are truthers so bad with timelines?



I suppose Paul Thompson is no truther, then, whatever a truther is. Even you would have to admit you rely on what is probably the most thorough and comprehensive 9/11 research site on the web.

[MaGZ]

While we all know that Israels intelligence has a focus on Muslim extremist groups in light of their struggle, are you implying that they had more knowledge of an attack than they're willing to share with the US-intelligence?

In other words: What intelligence didn't the Israeli Mossad share with their US counterparts? And how are you capable to confirm that lack of US knowledge given the fact that some information is classified anyway? :confused:

Here is an article by one of you namesakes.

http://www.physics911.ca/Schrom:_Next_Door_to_Muhammed_Atta

[MaGZ]

While we all know that Israels intelligence has a focus on Muslim extremist groups in light of their struggle, are you implying that they had more knowledge of an attack than they're willing to share with the US-intelligence?

In other words: What intelligence didn't the Israeli Mossad share with their US counterparts? And how are you capable to confirm that lack of US knowledge given the fact that some information is classified anyway? :confused:

Atta and Able Danger
http://911review.org/Alex/Able-Danger-3.html

[funk de fino]

Uh, antiwar.com is not a neo nazi site. It's one of the best, most comprehensive news sites reporting on any conflict across the globe. Your hair trigger response is dare I say, dirt dumb, to borrow your charming, little phrase.


Theres a lot of truthy nonsense on it and a load of Israeli crap as well.

Not neo nazi but crap all the same.

[WildCat]

Wrong.

Thierry Meyssan wrote the first book questioning 9/11. He was an anti-racist activist.
And where did he derive his theory from?

[funk de fino]

Atta and Able Danger
http://911review.org/Alex/Able-Danger-3.html

Repeating the same old hearsay, to support your bigotry, does not make it true.

Israeli intelligence probably did know there was an attack planned. Many agencies did.

They did not know when and where and who. They did not help.

Hows that race war coming? The one you claimed would happen if a certain President got in?

[twinstead]

I feel sorry for MaGZ. What if you threw a race war and nobody showed up?

[beachnut]

Uh, antiwar.com is not a neo nazi site. It's one of the best, most comprehensive news sites reporting on any conflict across the globe. Your hair trigger response is dare I say, dirt dumb, to borrow your charming, little phrase.Next time read to comprehend, or stop being a bigot. At least Stormfront neoNAZIs like antiwar.com like you do. Et tu, Pseudibis papillosa

I suppose Paul Thompson is no truther, then, whatever a truther is. Even you would have to admit you rely on what is probably the most thorough and comprehensive 9/11 research site on the web. Paul Thompson's time-line is great but the comments and implications in his compilations are as you said dirt dumb tacit support for the 911TruthLIES movement. Great time-line but you have to apply knowledge and sound judgment to get the truth from Thompson's time-line bent with implied conspiracy. If you use the raw data from Thompson's time-line and believe it, you could end up being a dirt dumb truther. I wonder how many people suffer from that problem.

NeoNAZIs support the failed truth movement due to ignorance and the inability to dig out the facts and evidence from their favorite news sources.

[MikeW]

I suppose Paul Thompson is no truther, then, whatever a truther is. Even you would have to admit you rely on what is probably the most thorough and comprehensive 9/11 research site on the web.
Quantity is not the same as quality. Thompson may not repeat as many absurd claims as, say, Griffin, but History Commons are just as good at omitting relevant information where it's inconvenient to their case. And that applies even to areas where Thompson's supposed to be an authority, like Saeed Sheikh.

So, no, I may check History Commons to see what sources they have, but I certainly don't rely on them being "thorough" or "comprehensive", and I don't trust their observations or conclusions in the slightest.

[UNLoVedRebel]

MaGZ is proof 9/11 truth attracts holocaust deniers like drunk blondes attract hard dicks.

[RedIbis]

Quantity is not the same as quality. Thompson may not repeat as many absurd claims as, say, Griffin, but History Commons are just as good at omitting relevant information where it's inconvenient to their case. And that applies even to areas where Thompson's supposed to be an authority, like Saeed Sheikh.

So, no, I may check History Commons to see what sources they have, but I certainly don't rely on them being "thorough" or "comprehensive", and I don't trust their observations or conclusions in the slightest.

What information about Sheikh has he omitted?

[BigAl]

What information about Sheikh has he omitted?

To prove or disprove what point?

[MikeW]

What information about Sheikh has he omitted?
It's not about Sheikh directly, more Thompson's claims about Sheikh.

It's also too long to explain here in full, but the summary is something like this.

In this essay (http://www.historycommons.org/essay.jsp?article=essaysaeed) Thompson, amongst other things, makes the case that:

a) post 9/11, Saeed Sheikh gradually appeared in press reports as the 9/11 financier
b) then the ISI/ Sheikh/ Atta story appeared
c) and after that he was largely forgotten as a number of other people were mentioned instead

This then gets used elsewhere to emphasise the importance of the ISI/ Sheikh/ Atta story (ie they had to cover it up).

But to create this effect, though, Thompson

1) doesn't mention the first press report on the financier, which appeared in the Economist, and
2) points to the same information appearing later in the Guardian, but misleads readers by saying it's "not clear" who they're referring to, and failing to mention details that make it sound like someone other than Saeed Sheikh (ie they said it was a man who worked for bin Laden in Sudan), and
3) fails to clearly point out that there's a much better fit for the financier, a man known as Sheikh Saeed who did work for bin Laden in Sudan. and
4) therefore when that man is mentioned later, portrays this as a change of story when it's nothing of the kind

More: http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Forgetting_Saeed_Sheikh

Individually these are small things, but that's all it takes. An omission, a shift in time, a detail left out, and that's enough to create a false impression.

[TheDaver]

This week the Montréal 9/11 Truth group was upset over the leader of the local anti-war group calling them antisemites. I had to point out that their entire raison d’être is to make similar accusations.…

[Scott Sommers]

One of the main guys in 911 Truth Chicago is sending out the claim that Israel and the USA government. He claims he has visited Pakistan and there they all know it's the CIA and Israel government agents who are causing unrest.

I copied his letter to a post on the conspiracy forum here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=158021)

[Mr.D]

Care to point out to MaGZ what he's gotten blatantly wrong, Red?

You wouldn't want your silence to be interpreted as tacit approval of his antisemitic ravings, would you?

[MrErisian]

The well-known Jew-haters in the TM aren't some sort of abberation or fringe group. Their beliefs are the logical outcome of the twisted mindset that truthers have.

There's truth in what you're saying. It's this that has been steadily putting me off 9/11 conspiracy theory.

But I must say I think it's healthy for every member of the TM (and debunker alike) to understand, that these theories started very early, and they were mostly started by people who were very opposed to anything "official" to begin with. They used this as an opportunity to spread their world views.

The above was a bit of a revelation to me a few years back. I hadn't considered the fact that all the major TM players came to this with 'inside job' already as their conclusion.

[ref]

Wasn't it you who provided a timeline of the earliest 9/11 conspiracy theories? Just about all of them by anti-Semites and Holocaust deniers like Carol Valentine?

Yes I was. Well, maybe it's just a matter of opinion. In my timeline I mention 13 different "early people" by their name. Among of those 13 there are 3 people, that are proven to be holocaust deniers or sympathisers. I don't have Christopher Bollyn on my timeline, we should include him as well. Now we have 4 out of 14. That's a huge share of nuttiness to begin with, but I wouldn't call under a third of a population "just about all of them". Don't get me wrong here, even 1 denier is too many. I'm just talking from the mathematical point of view here. :rolleyes:

Some of those 14 have been more "productive" than others. For example Carol Valentine has provided us with an disproportionate amount of theories. So if we count the amount of those early theories that originated from a holocaust denier (compared to a non-denier source), the share of deniers might be higher.

Let's leave it at that, shall we :)

[ref]

Excellent post. Nominated

Being nominated by MaGZ... I am so finished with this thread :D