To all Scandinavians out there

[Ed]

I originally posted this in banter where, I guess, real Scandinavians would not be caught dead.

What are the linguistic differences/similarities between the Scandinavian languages? How to they relate to Old English or Old Norse? Can you read those languages?


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[Leif Roar]

Originally posted by Ed
What are the linguistic differences/similarities between the Scandinavian languages? How to they relate to Old English or Old Norse? Can you read those languages?

There are three major language families in Scandinavia - Finnish, the Sami languages and the North-Germanic languages that have developed from old norse - Swedish, Norwegian, Danish, Icelandic and Faeroese. In addition there has traditionally been a small enclave of some Romanic languages, and possibly other languages I'm not aware of.

Swedish, Danish and Norwegian are all pretty much mutually comprehensible, and Icelandic and Faeroese is, I think, also pretty much mutually comprehensible, but a speaker of Swedish, Danish or Norwegian will not understand Icelandic or Faeroese without learning the language (although learning the language would take less time than learning a unrelated language).

I don't know to which degree the Sami languages are mutually comprehensible with each other and with Finnish, which they are related to.

Icelandic is the language which has changed the least from Norse and a speaker of Icelandic would generally be able to understand Norse prose.

More can be found in the FAQ for soc.culture.nordic, at http://www.lysator.liu.se/nordic/scn/faq21.html#2.2.4

[LW]

Originally posted by Leif Roar


There are three major language families in Scandinavia - Finnish, the Sami languages and the North-Germanic languages that have developed from old norse - Swedish, Norwegian, Danish, Icelandic and Faeroese.

I'm not certain how the linguistic terms are defined in English (or whether you are actually using those formal definitions instead of informal usage), but Sami languages and Finnish both belong to the family of Fenno-Ugric languages (suomalais-ugrilainen kieliperhe in Finnish).

I think that most Sami languages are close enough that their speakers can at least communicate without too much trouble. Finnish and Sami are different enough to be mutually incomprehensiple. If I see some written Sami I may recognize a word or two, and occasionally even undestand a sentence, but that's the limit.

[Leif Roar]

Originally posted by LW

I'm not certain how the linguistic terms are defined in English (or whether you are actually using those formal definitions instead of informal usage), but Sami languages and Finnish both belong to the family of Fenno-Ugric languages (suomalais-ugrilainen kieliperhe in Finnish).


My bad - for some reason I had the impression that Sami and Finnish had evolved from different language families. I don't really know enough about linguistics to use the formal definitions, so take anything I might say on the subject with the appropriate pinch of salt.

[JAR]

Originally posted by LW
I'm not certain how the linguistic terms are defined in English (or whether you are actually using those formal definitions instead of informal usage), but Sami languages and Finnish both belong to the family of Fenno-Ugric languages (suomalais-ugrilainen kieliperhe in Finnish).

I think that most Sami languages are close enough that their speakers can at least communicate without too much trouble. Finnish and Sami are different enough to be mutually incomprehensiple. If I see some written Sami I may recognize a word or two, and occasionally even undestand a sentence, but that's the limit.
Speaking of the Finns and Lapps, you might find this interesting. In The Old English Grammar and Reader by Robert E. Diamond, in the section with a glossary for proper nouns, on page 300, it defines the Old English word "Finnas" as "the Lapps, a Finno-Ugric people."

It has a section called "The Voyages of Oht-here and Wulf-stan in Scandinavia and the Baltic" which, according to page 205, was inserted by King Alfred into the Old English translation of Orosius's "Compendious History of the World".

In the "Oht-here and Wulf-stan" section on page 73, it says, "The Lapps(translated from Old English "Finnas"), it seemed to him, and the Permians(translated from Old English "Beormas") spoke nearly the same language.

[Bjorn]

Originally posted by JAR

Speaking of the Finns and Lapps, you might find this interesting. In The Old English Grammar and Reader by Robert E. Diamond, in the section with a glossary for proper nouns, on page 300, it defines the Old English word "Finnas" as "the Lapps, a Finno-Ugric people."

It has a section called "The Voyages of Oht-here and Wulf-stan in Scandinavia and the Baltic" which, according to page 205, was inserted by King Alfred into the Old English translation of Orosius's "Compendious History of the World".

In the "Oht-here and Wulf-stan" section on page 73, it says, "The Lapps(translated from Old English "Finnas"), it seemed to him, and the Permians(translated from Old English "Beormas") spoke nearly the same language. I can say from first hand knowledge that the Sami (Lapp) population in Norway cannot understand or speak Finnish (unless they learn it as a foreign language). They sound similar, but are not at all close as Spanish and Portuguese or Norwegian and Swedish.

[JAR]

One interesting thing about the Lapps is that among them you will find people here and there with Mongoloid features which is interesting because they live in northern Europe, which is far from places like Mongolia, Japan and China.

[JAR]

Originally posted by Bjorn
I can say from first hand knowledge that the Sami (Lapp) population in Norway cannot understand or speak Finnish (unless they learn it as a foreign language). They sound similar, but are not at all close as Spanish and Portuguese or Norwegian and Swedish.
The Voyage of Oht-here and Wulfstan happened more than a thousand years ago. The Finno-Ugric languages have changed from each other quite a bit since then. What the narrator of the story of the voyage said about the languages of the Lapps and Permians being nearly the same very well may have been true at the time at which the voyage took place.

[Bjorn]

Originally posted by JAR

The Voyage of Oht-here and Wulfstan happened more than a thousand years ago. The Finno-Ugric languages have changed from each other quite a bit since then. What the narrator of the story of the voyage said about the languages of the Lapps and Permians being nearly the same very well may have been true at the time at which the voyage took place. It might have been. But at least today, Sami people will laugh if you ask them if them speek or understand Finnish - they sound the same, but are not at all similar.

[Bjorn]

Originally posted by JAR
One interesting thing about the Lapps is that among them you will find people here and there with Mongoloid features which is interesting because they live in northern Europe, which is far from places like Mongolia, Japan and China. Not as far as you think.

Imagine Siberians, where many people have a 'Mongoloid' look, and take a look at the map (and check how far the mongols invaded Russia). It's actually quite close and no big deal if they have the same origin. Or look at the inuits, also not far away, Greenland is just across the ocean ....

[LW]

Originally posted by JAR

Speaking of the Finns and Lapps, you might find this interesting. In The Old English Grammar and Reader by Robert E. Diamond, in the section with a glossary for proper nouns, on page 300, it defines the Old English word "Finnas" as "the Lapps, a Finno-Ugric people."

It is true that the usual meaning of the word 'Finn' in Germanic languages has changed during the last thousand years. In the old sagas nearly all 'Finns' are actually Sami. And actually, at that time there were no homogenous Finns, but a continuum of tribes that lived between the Baltic and the Urals, speaking related languages. The language differences between two neighboring tribes were small, but the differences mounted by distance.

Three of those tribes lived in the area that is now within (or has historically been) within Finlands boders, suomalaiset, hämäläiset, and karjalaiset. (though karjalaiset themselves were divided into three different groups and two of them have always lived outside the Finnish borders). These three tribes amalgated into current Finns.

Here one thing to note is that the term 'Finn' is not actually a Finnish word but probably of Swedish origin. The Finnish term is 'Suomi' (remarkably close to 'Saame' and 'Sami' of the Sami languages) and its etymology is contested. The Swedes started to use 'Finn' to mean persons of the suomalaiset tribe, and later the meanings of both words changed to its current meaning.

The word 'lappi' has also an interesting story. In Finnish it originally denoted nomadic lifestyle. All people who were not settled in permanent houses were called Lapps, regardless of their origins. Later when practically all Finns had settled down it was identified with the Sami.

[b}In the "Oht-here and Wulf-stan" section on page 73, it says, "The Lapps(translated from Old English "Finnas"), it seemed to him, and the Permians(translated from Old English "Beormas") spoke nearly the same language. [/B]

However, Permians were the Komi people living in the Northern Russia, not Finns. They are Finno-Ugric, but their language is very different from Finnish.

Finnish and Sami languages diverged 2000-3000 years ago.

[JAR]

Thanks for taking the time to reply LW. I found what you said interesting.:)

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Bjorn
It might have been. But at least today, Sami people will laugh if you ask them if them speek or understand Finnish - they sound the same, but are not at all similar.

I've had about enough of the anti-Samitism around here.

[Bjorn]

Originally posted by Jocko
I've had about enough of the anti-Samitism around here. :D

You probably don't know, but 'anti-samitism' was in fact widespread less than 50 years ago. That, however, is off topic.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Bjorn
:D

You probably don't know, but 'anti-samitism' was in fact widespread less than 50 years ago. That, however, is off topic.

Wow, you learn something every day. Truth really is stranger than humor. :)

[Chaos]

Originally posted by Jocko


Wow, you learn something every day. Truth really is stranger than humor. :)

Yup. I don´t know how often people say about actual events "If anybody wrote this as a screenplay, Hollywood would reject it as unrealistic."

[/thread hijack]

Thanks for your info, LW and Leif Roar. It was very interesting.

[JAR]

Originally posted by Ed
[snip]How to they relate to Old English or Old Norse? Can you read those languages?

I'm pretty sure speakers of languages such as Norwegian and Icelandic can't read Old English. Old English is a West Germanic language like German and Dutch while Norwegian, Danish, Swedish and Icelandic are North Germanic languages.

In his book, "The Prose Edda", the Icelander Snorri Sturluson(who lived from 1179-1241) wrote at the end of the prologue, "The Aesir and some of their sons married with the women of the lands they settled, and their families became so numerous in Germany and thence over the north that their language, that of the men of Asia, became the language proper to all these countries. From the fact that their genealogies are written down, men suppose that these names came along with this language, and that it was brought here to the north of the world, to Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Germany, by the Aesir. In England, however, there are ancient district and place names which must be understood as deriving from a different language."

I think that Snorri Sturluson is here referring to the existence of what are now called Germanic languages.

When you see ancient Germanic writings, the similarity between the languages is obvious.

Here's a list of Old English words with their meanings in modern English in parentheses with similar Gothic words to the right, Gothic being an East Germanic language:

be/bi (by, at, along, beside, about, in, according to) bi (according to)
eall (all) allai
eorthe (earth) airthai
ge (and, also) jah(and)
ge-sceaft (creation) gaskaftais
god (god, God) gudis (of God)
habban (have) habam (we have)
his (his) is
inn (in) in
is (is) ist
leoht (light) liuhada
meaht (power, might) mahtai
mid (with, among, together) mith
on (on) ana
rice (rule, kingdom, empire, rich, powerful) riqizis(from the power)
se (the, this, that, he, she, it, who, which, that) saei (he)
sind (were) sind
sunu (son) sunus (of the son)
thurh (through) thairh
us (us) us
wuldor (glory) wulthaus (glorious)

[mbp]

Here's a short article about scandinavian influence on english (http://www.spellingbee.com/cc04/week05/scand.shtml).