Can I get a passport without a SSN?

[boyntonstu]

Can I get a passport without a SSN?

http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=15140.0

Yes! I have a passport and did not provide a ss#. If you read the application, on the back of the last page it states that. the IRS will fine you $500 for failure to disclose the number. The clerk claimed that I need to fill it out. I ended up speaking to a supervisor who pointed to the penalty clause. My response was "no problem, the IRS can fine me $500. I can afford it. Please tell them to send me a bill and in the meantime, process my application. Six weeks later I received my passport. I will say that a friend went with me and turned in their app at the same time. They did disclose and got the goods in two weeks so be prepared for a delay.

There is no law which requires you to have one so there can be no law which requires you to disclose what you're not required to have. No word from the IRS 5 years and one passport renewal later (I did not include a ss# on the renewal app either).

“If you read the application, on the back of the last page it states that. the IRS will fine you $500 for failure to disclose the number.”

Indeed, for tax purposes only; not for passports!

[Cleon]

Believe it or not, anonymous people on web forums aren't necessarily 100% accurate.

From http://travel.state.gov/passport/get/first/first_830.html:


STEP 1: Complete and Submit Form DS-11: Application For A U.S. Passport Complete Form DS-11: Application for a U.S. Passport (http://travel.state.gov/passport/forms/ds11/ds11_842.html). To submit Form DS-11, you:


Must apply in person at an Acceptance Facility (http://iafdb.travel.state.gov/) or Passport Agency (http://travel.state.gov/passport/passport_4312.html)
Must include the additional documentation required by Form DS-11 (See Steps 2-5)
Must not sign the application until instructed to do so by the Acceptance Agent
Must provide your SSN in accordance with 26 U.S.C. 6039E (http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/usc.cgi?ACTION=RETRIEVE&FILE=$$xa$$busc26.wais&start=20784486&SIZE=4281&TYPE=TEXT)

Notice last line. The code referenced specifically requires the TIN (aka Social Security Number).

[boyntonstu]

Believe it or not, anonymous people on web forums aren't necessarily 100% accurate.

From http://travel.state.gov/passport/get/first/first_830.html:

Notice last line. The code referenced specifically requires the TIN (aka Social Security Number).

Please show us the connection between the IRS Code and a passport.

[drkitten]

Please show us the connection between the IRS Code and a passport.

The connection is that the State Department passport regulations cross-reference title 26 (the Internal Revenue Code). Which is not the same as the "IRS code"; there's no mention of the IRS in that particular section at all.

And if you actually read the relevant law, you do not need to provide a TIN. You only need to provide it if you have it. If for some reason you've managed to avoid getting a TIN, you can still get a passport without penalty. (The free state nutcase happened to be right on this one.) But if you have one, they will simply attach your TIN to the passport file anyway and charge you $500 for the extra work they've got to do.

What's the point of making your passport $500 more expensive than it needs to be?

[Cleon]

Please show us the connection between the IRS Code and a passport.

Excuse me? I just gave you a link to the relevant federal law with the requirement. I have no idea why the requirement is there, but it most assuredly is there.

[Cleon]

And if you actually read the relevant law, you do not need to provide a TIN. You only need to provide it if you have it. If for some reason you've managed to avoid getting a TIN, you can still get a passport without penalty. (The free state nutcase happened to be right on this one.) But if you have one, they will simply attach your TIN to the passport file anyway and charge you $500 for the extra work they've got to do.

What's the point of making your passport $500 more expensive than it needs to be?

I did notice the "if you have one" part, but I'm not sure how you'd go about avoiding getting one. They assign it at birth, no?

[Fiona]

What is the point of this discussion, please?

[drkitten]

I did notice the "if you have one" part, but I'm not sure how you'd go about avoiding getting one. They assign it at birth, no?

No. (http://www.ssa.gov/pubs/10023.html)

Granted, your parents have to be pretty bonkers for you NOT to have a SSN within a year of your birth; in order to claim you as a dependent, you need to have a SSN.

... or you simply need not to be a US citizen and not to have lived in the US.

[Cleon]

No. (http://www.ssa.gov/pubs/10023.html)

Granted, your parents have to be pretty bonkers for you NOT to have a SSN within a year of your birth; in order to claim you as a dependent, you need to have a SSN.

Ah, ok. (I have no kids, and obviously I wasn't consulted when my parents got me an SSN. Of course, my parents have never been tax-protesting whackaloons, so it's a non-issue.)


... or you simply need not to be a US citizen and not to have lived in the US.

If that's the case, would/could you apply for a US passport in the first place? :confused:

[GreyICE]

I did notice the "if you have one" part, but I'm not sure how you'd go about avoiding getting one. They assign it at birth, no?

He's a birfer. This is leading up to Kenya.

[boyntonstu]

US Passports
Some forms for applying for US Passports (DSP-11 12/87) request a Social Security Number, but don't give enough information in their Privacy Act notice to verify that the Passport office has the authority to request it. There is a reference to "Federal Tax Law" and a misquotation of Section 6039E of the 1986 Internal Revenue Code, claiming that that section requires that you provide your name, mailing address, date of birth, and Social Security Number. The referenced section only requires TIN (SSN), and it only requires that it be sent to the IRS (not to the Passport office). It appears that when you apply for a passport, you can refuse to reveal your SSN to the passport office, and instead mail a notice to the IRS, give only your SSN (other identifying info optional) and notify them that you are applying for a passport. Here is the postscript source for the letter that was used by one contributor. Another reader has converted the letter to Word for the Macintosh. I've now converted it to HTML as well. Other readers have also used this technique successfully.
I had received reports that a new version of the passport application fixed the problems described above. Apparently, these new applications asked for SSN, but stated that failure to provide it wasn't grounds to deny a passport. It warned that the SSN would be used to verify the other information on the form, and processing of the application might be delayed if the number was not provided.
There's another new version (DS-11 03-2005) available now at the State department's web site. It has a different notice that implies (in the same roundabout way) that the SSN is required by the abovementioned laws, and says passports will be refused if the number is not included. People have continued to report that using the letters provided by David Wise result in timely processing.
I applied for a renewal of my passport in July, 2000, and received a new passport in August. I used the 1997 version of the form for Renewal by Mail, which I obtained at the State department's web site, and sent a suitably modified version of Professor Wise's letter. (The letter assumes you are delivering the application to a postal clerk.)

Tax Protesters?


http://cpsr.org/issues/privacy/ssn-government/#passport

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I give the government my SSN at every opportunity. I feel it allows them the track me more efficiently.

[brodski]

If this is a "tax protest" isn't it the worst one ever, in that it requires you to give the government an extra $500? I bet the IRS hate that.

[KingMerv00]

Stick it to the man. Now the government only got ahold of your birth certificate, address, full name, previous addresses, shoe size....etc etc.

You sure showed them.

[drkitten]

If that's the case, would/could you apply for a US passport in the first place? :confused:

I do not believe there is a requirement for US citizens, in general, to have SSNs, nor do I think they are required to get them as part of the naturalization process. So if one played one's cards exactly right, one could become a naturalized citizen without an SSN, and then apply for a passport.

Of course, you'd have to forego almost the entire US economy to do it; you couldn't get a job, for example, so you'd need to be stonkin' rich to begin with, and you couldn't invest or even bank your money, so you'd need to put your entire fortune into a great wodge of cash.

I think technically dual nationals are not liable for US taxes on income earned abroad, so you could also be born on US soil (and therefore hold a US passport) while living and working in Ruritania without a SSN. I am not a tax lawyer, though, so don't take that as legal advice.

[leftysergeant]

I find it hard now to believe anything you post, dude. You cannot even prove to me that you are a US citizen and entitled to a US passport without a SSN.

Would a Freestater lie on the internet?:jaw-dropp

Well DUH!

[Ladewig]

What is the advantage of not giving a SSN when applying for a passport?

[Praktik]

What is the advantage of not giving a SSN when applying for a passport?

Then you're not giving up a piece of your soul... isn't it obvious??

[headscratcher4]

The fact that he may have got a passport without having to provide a SSN# is all the more reason why I've advocated that SSN# be tatooed across the forehead (along with a bar code, of course) AND that every citizen be required to have a micro chip implanted on their body. That should solve the problem, I should think.

[Cleon]

What is the advantage of not giving a SSN when applying for a passport?

You are, apparently, Sticking it to the Man. And costing yourself $500. And annoying some nameless clerk you've never met.

[Eyeron]

That makes you the anti-christ.

[dtugg]

The fact that he may have got a passport without having to provide a SSN# is all the more reason why I've advocated that SSN# be tatooed across the forehead (along with a bar code, of course) AND that every citizen be required to have a micro chip implanted on their body. That should solve the problem, I should think.

That sounds like an awesome idea. I am going to write Congress and the White House about it immediately.

[headscratcher4]

That makes you the anti-christ.


No, it merely makes me one of his familiars.

[KingMerv00]

What is the advantage of not giving a SSN when applying for a passport?

You don't have to carry around that wad of money anymore.

[Doubt]

The fact that he may have got a passport without having to provide a SSN# is all the more reason why I've advocated that SSN# be tatooed across the forehead (along with a bar code, of course) AND that every citizen be required to have a micro chip implanted on their body. That should solve the problem, I should think.

You forgot that the bar codes all start with 666.

[WildCat]

What's the point of making your passport $500 more expensive than it needs to be?
So the government doesn't get the secret number you've been assigned to by, uh, the government.

[LostAngeles]

boyontsu, the way you stuck it to The Man has got me bothered and hot. I must now rip open my shirt as it can no longer take the heaving of my bosom and beg for you to just take me, right here, on this subforum. Take me, ravish me with your tax-dodging ways. Press your giving the government an extra $500 bucks up against my soft flesh. Oh boyontsu, I do love the WTF you give me.

[Cleon]

boyontsu, the way you stuck it to The Man has got me bothered and hot. I must now rip open my shirt as it can no longer take the heaving of my bosom and beg for you to just take me, right here, on this subforum. Take me, ravish me with your tax-dodging ways. Press your giving the government an extra $500 bucks up against my soft flesh. Oh boyontsu, I do love the WTF you give me.

I'll be in my bunk.

[Alt+F4]

What is the point of this discussion, please?

Indeed.

If a person doesn't want to divulge their Social Security number...than don't.

If a person doesn't want to file a federal tax return...than don"t.

[Ladewig]

Of course, you'd have to forego almost the entire US economy to do it; you couldn't get a job, for example, so you'd need to be stonkin' rich to begin with, and you couldn't invest or even bank your money, so you'd need to put your entire fortune into a great wodge of cash.
.

Furthermore, many states now require a SSN for drivers' licenses. The legislatures passed the law to crack down on deadbeat dads

[dudalb]

Indeed.

If a person doesn't want to divulge their Social Security number...than don't.

If a person doesn't want to file a federal tax return...than don"t.

Just be damn sure you have a good lawyer if you do the second.

[boyntonstu]

Indeed.

If a person doesn't want to divulge their Social Security number...than don't.

If a person doesn't want to file a federal tax return...than don"t.

Exactly!

[boyntonstu]

Just be damn sure you have a good lawyer if you do the second.


Is Tom Cryer a good enough attorney?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psPkblKxdzQ

[Fiona]

Is this about not paying tax,then?

[fuelair]

Is this about not paying tax,then?

Somehoe it always gets around to not paying tax to the nutters. Love the videos of them being carted of to jail!!!:D

[The Central Scrutinizer]

boyontsu, the way you stuck it to The Man has got me bothered and hot. I must now rip open my shirt as it can no longer take the heaving of my bosom and beg for you to just take me, right here, on this subforum. Take me, ravish me with your tax-dodging ways. Press your giving the government an extra $500 bucks up against my soft flesh. Oh boyontsu, I do love the WTF you give me.

I'm the one that gave boyontsu the idea.

[Ladewig]

Boyntonstu, what is the advantage of not giving a SSN when applying for a passport?

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Boyntonstu, what is the advantage of not giving a SSN when applying for a passport?

Don't you get it? If you give them your SSN, they'll know who you are.

[Fiona]

Er....is that not the point of a passport?

[elbe]

No, it's to get you out of this hell hole to where they can't track you anymore... except by the secret spy satellites, but you can avoid them by hiding in caves during the day and only moving at night.

[psychictv]

Forget the SSN, I'm wondering how I can post on this forum without a username. Quit tracking my every movement Randi! :mad:

[UnrepentantSinner]

Er....is that not the point of a passport?

Yes, but within the context of foreign travel and, I suppose more importantly, returning from foreign travel. Which raises the question, why would Free Staters and tax protestors want to travel outside of the U.S.?

[Puppycow]

Can I get a passport without a SSN?

http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=15140.0

Yes! I have a passport and did not provide a ss#. If you read the application, on the back of the last page it states that. the IRS will fine you $500 for failure to disclose the number. The clerk claimed that I need to fill it out. I ended up speaking to a supervisor who pointed to the penalty clause. My response was "no problem, the IRS can fine me $500. I can afford it. Please tell them to send me a bill and in the meantime, process my application. Six weeks later I received my passport. I will say that a friend went with me and turned in their app at the same time. They did disclose and got the goods in two weeks so be prepared for a delay.

There is no law which requires you to have one so there can be no law which requires you to disclose what you're not required to have. No word from the IRS 5 years and one passport renewal later (I did not include a ss# on the renewal app either).

“If you read the application, on the back of the last page it states that. the IRS will fine you $500 for failure to disclose the number.”

Indeed, for tax purposes only; not for passports!

So what?

Oh. . ., I guess that this somehow means that Obama is a foreigner. :rolleyes:

Is there a "red herring" emoticon?

[Vermonter]

So what?

Oh. . ., I guess that this somehow means that Obama is a foreigner. :rolleyes:

Is there a "red herring" emoticon?


http://www.crimescene.com/board2007/style_emoticons/default/red-herring.gif

Here ya go.

[The Painter]

No word from the IRS 5 years and one passport renewal later

5 years?? My passport is good for 10 years. Did you get a cheapo passport or are you making this up?

Look, I'm all for giving the government as little info as possible but this just doesn't make any sense. They already know your #.



PS. I can't believe some people think the # is assigned at birth. Wow.

[headscratcher4]

Don't you all get it....your assignement to the re-education camps is dependent upon your SSN# and your passport. If they don't have a SSN# on the passport, they won't know which camp you are assigned to.

[funk de fino]

The OP is a Tall Tale.

A pointless one at that.

[WildCat]

The OP is a Tall Tale.

A pointless one at that.
No, it's all true. In fact, I saw boyntonstu ride into town on a cyclone with my own eyes!

[Alt+F4]

I can't believe some people think the # is assigned at birth. Wow.

You can apply for a Social Security number for a child at birth. It's not mandatory but strongly suggested.

[KingMerv00]

http://www.crimescene.com/board2007/style_emoticons/default/red-herring.gif

Here ya go.

Isn't that more of a red flounder?

[Upchurch]

5 years?? My passport is good for 10 years. Did you get a cheapo passport or are you making this up?
It's less than 10 years for passports issued to minors. I want to say it was 7 years, but it might be 5.

[mortimer]

It's less than 10 years for passports issued to minors. I want to say it was 7 years, but it might be 5.
It's 5. Explains a lot, doesn't it? :D

[dudalb]

Well, if spending about 375:00 bucks more then you have to for a Passport just so you don't have to give you SSN gives you your jollies, then I guess you have a right to waste your own money......

[cwalner]

It's 5. Explains a lot, doesn't it? :D

Is it variable depending upon age? I got my first passport in 1987 when I was 17. It expired in 1994. By my count that is 7 years, not 5. When I renewed it, I was over 18 so the renewal was for 10 years.

[Upchurch]

Is it variable depending upon age? I got my first passport in 1987 when I was 17. It expired in 1994. By my count that is 7 years, not 5. When I renewed it, I was over 18 so the renewal was for 10 years.
I want to say I was 16-17 when I first got mine and I thought it was 7 years too. Maybe it is a sliding scale.

[mortimer]

I want to say I was 16-17 when I first got mine and I thought it was 7 years too. Maybe it is a sliding scale.
Maybe things used to be different, but I got my first passport at 16-17 and it was 5 years then (mid '80s). The rules now are 10 for adults, 5 for minors:

http://travel.state.gov/passport/fri/faq/faq_1741.html#gen9

[Puppycow]

http://www.crimescene.com/board2007/style_emoticons/default/red-herring.gif

Here ya go.

Thank you!

[cwalner]

Maybe things used to be different, but I got my first passport at 16-17 and it was 5 years then (mid '80s). The rules now are 10 for adults, 5 for minors:

http://travel.state.gov/passport/fri/faq/faq_1741.html#gen9

Thanks for the link. It must have changed after I got mine (1987) because I know mine was good until 1994. I used the same passport to go back to Spain in 1992 for the Olympics and when I checked it, it was still good for another two years.

[Checkmite]

The Federal government assigns SSNs to people.

The Federal government also administers passports.

So...what, exactly, is the point of not putting your SSN on a Federal form again? To keep them from finding out what your SSN is...?