Merry Christ-mass from the Faithless

[corplinx]

On this forum we see a lot of stuff across where it looks like the athiests are trying to do this or it looks like the christians are trying to do that. The christians think the ACLU is after them and the athiests think John Ashcroft and Dubya are after them.

Let me tell you a little story. My mother and father were believers. They were rural folk and had what I call a "simple faith". The thing is though, they actually believed. They didn't just say they believed in God because its the socially right answer.

During the late 70s/early 80s, there was an influx of Cambodians into the cheaper apartments in my part of town. One day my mother was driving the family station wagon with me in it along the road about a mile from the apartments when she spotted two young cambodian girls walking over an overpass. Its was very cold outside, and one only had a flimsy sweater while the other was only wearing a long shirt. She stopped the car and asked the girls where their coats were. Of course, the answer was that they didn't have coats. They were on there way back from the nearest store. So, my mother took off her coat and gave it to the girl who was only wearing a shirt. She then ushered them into the car and drove them home. As a young boy playing with his darth vader figure in the back, I was frankly embarassed. Nowadays, I feel like a fool for being so.

The point is, she was a real believer. She took those simple gospel messages of "love your neighbor" and "do unto others" seriously. My father was the same way.

I don't know if Jesus existed or not, I don't know if he actually gave out two commandments to replace Jewish law with or if he ever uttered a golden rule. I do know however that I feel safe wishing you all a merry christmas and hoping you find some way to act beyond yourself in the aid of others this year.

Good day folks.

[TillEulenspiegel]

I read an intersting artical about people of different faiths celibrating Christmas, Jews , Moslems, animists. The best explaination was by a 15 Buddest girl who summed it up by saying that for her "It wasn't about religion but about the spirit of the holiday, love, forgivness, good will.."

I guess that sums it up for me. I wish all the best in the spirit of christmas.

[El Greco]

Indeed, people with a "simple faith" are usually able to distill the essence of religious beliefs and use it to scent their lives with love, goodness and forgiveness. These people would live the same good lives whether they were Christians, Muslims, Buddhists or atheists.

[Chaos]

It is not the "simple faith" believers I, as an atheist, have problems with. It is the Phelpss and Buchanans, the Bin Ladens and Chomeinis, the Meir Kahanes and Baruch Goldsteins.
These §$%§ make me wish there was a god who could tell them (very convincingly, judging from Old Testament) that they are the scum of mankind.


By the way, corplinx, such compassion and kindness as your mother demonstrated is not necessarily limited to the believers. Even hard-core atheists can do that. You need not believe in god to believe that it is good to help other people.

[Ralph]

Originally posted by corplinx
On this forum we see a lot of stuff across where it looks like the athiests are trying to do this or it looks like the christians are trying to do that. The christians think the ACLU is after them and the athiests think John Ashcroft and Dubya are after them.

Let me tell you a little story. My mother and father were believers. They were rural folk and had what I call a "simple faith". The thing is though, they actually believed. They didn't just say they believed in God because its the socially right answer.

During the late 70s/early 80s, there was an influx of Cambodians into the cheaper apartments in my part of town. One day my mother was driving the family station wagon with me in it along the road about a mile from the apartments when she spotted two young cambodian girls walking over an overpass. Its was very cold outside, and one only had a flimsy sweater while the other was only wearing a long shirt. She stopped the car and asked the girls where their coats were. Of course, the answer was that they didn't have coats. They were on there way back from the nearest store. So, my mother took off her coat and gave it to the girl who was only wearing a shirt. She then ushered them into the car and drove them home. As a young boy playing with his darth vader figure in the back, I was frankly embarassed. Nowadays, I feel like a fool for being so.

The point is, she was a real believer. She took those simple gospel messages of "love your neighbor" and "do unto others" seriously. My father was the same way.

I don't know if Jesus existed or not, I don't know if he actually gave out two commandments to replace Jewish law with or if he ever uttered a golden rule. I do know however that I feel safe wishing you all a merry christmas and hoping you find some way to act beyond yourself in the aid of others this year.

Good day folks.

I was reading one of those links to the Rapture Ready board.

One of the believers made a statement like "When JESUS gets here.......HE'LL be making all the rules".

It seemed like his view of Jesus was of some stern, authoritarian
bunghole who was going to be laying out a whole long list of "thou shalt nots" and a big long list of things relating to "The proper way for puny humans to worship me and avoiding eternal hellfire".

I'm not a believer---but if I was---I'd like to think that that's all Jesus would have to say to people----simply do unto others as you'd have them do unto you. Forget the priests,the worshiping,the holy holies, the "thou shalt nots", this need to convert others to "see the light", and this whole stupid obsession they have with sex.

Just follow the golden rule.

The world would be a much better place.

[Malachi151]

Modern Christmas is a manufactured holiday that is only about 90 year old as we know and it was invented by secularists and department stores.

Christmas as it was was illigal in most fo the US until after the Civil War. Protestants have traditionally been anti-Christmas, and many of the New England states had laws on the books against it.

Christmas used to be a celebration like it was in Rome up until about 120 years ago, that involved feasting drinking and partying in which rich people opened thier homes to the poor to allow the poor to come into their homes and feast for a day.

The modern idea of Christmas came about through the invention of several stories by writers during the 1800s and early 1900s. The "legend" of Rudolph for example was pretty much invented in the 1930s. Stanta Clause was invented around the turn of the century and only took modern form in the 1900s through advertising campaigns. Coka Cola truely popularized the modern image of Santa.

Protestants didn't begin to accept Christmas until the turn of the century because Catholics began holding a Christmas service and the Protestant churches were loosing attendance to people seeking to practice the holiday religiously.

Christmas isn't a Christian holiday, that's just a bunch of lies and crap that has been made up over the past 100 years.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Chaos

By the way, corplinx, such compassion and kindness as your mother demonstrated is not necessarily limited to the believers. Even hard-core atheists can do that. You need not believe in god to believe that it is good to help other people.

I didn't suggest it was. Of course, the greater virtue is putting someone else before yourself for their sake and not because a deity told you to.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Malachi151
that's just a bunch of lies and crap that has been made up over the past 100 years.

you've blown it now Malachi, Santa is not going to be impressed, no presents for you.....

[Regnad Kcin]

Originally posted by Malachi151
Christmas isn't a Christian holiday, that's just a bunch of lies and crap that has been made up over the past 100 years. Well, you've simplified the history a bit but yes, modern Christmas is something which is a result of (gasp!) evolutionary forces.

[Zep]

Shake someone's hand today.

[Ed]

Originally posted by corplinx
On this forum we see a lot of stuff across where it looks like the athiests are trying to do this or it looks like the christians are trying to do that. The christians think the ACLU is after them and the athiests think John Ashcroft and Dubya are after them.

Let me tell you a little story. My mother and father were believers. They were rural folk and had what I call a "simple faith". The thing is though, they actually believed. They didn't just say they believed in God because its the socially right answer.

During the late 70s/early 80s, there was an influx of Cambodians into the cheaper apartments in my part of town. One day my mother was driving the family station wagon with me in it along the road about a mile from the apartments when she spotted two young cambodian girls walking over an overpass. Its was very cold outside, and one only had a flimsy sweater while the other was only wearing a long shirt. She stopped the car and asked the girls where their coats were. Of course, the answer was that they didn't have coats. They were on there way back from the nearest store. So, my mother took off her coat and gave it to the girl who was only wearing a shirt. She then ushered them into the car and drove them home. As a young boy playing with his darth vader figure in the back, I was frankly embarassed. Nowadays, I feel like a fool for being so.

The point is, she was a real believer. She took those simple gospel messages of "love your neighbor" and "do unto others" seriously. My father was the same way.

I don't know if Jesus existed or not, I don't know if he actually gave out two commandments to replace Jewish law with or if he ever uttered a golden rule. I do know however that I feel safe wishing you all a merry christmas and hoping you find some way to act beyond yourself in the aid of others this year.

Good day folks.


And to you. Good night.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Malachi151

Christmas isn't a Christian holiday, that's just a bunch of lies and crap that has been made up over the past 100 years.

Bah humbug, you bitter old twit. Looks like someone took a dump in your stocking when you were a kid.

[fishbob]

Just got back from Xmas dinner with the neighbors. Their kid is home from college for the holidays. My kids dropped by to partake of the goose and soup and salad and wine. What a nice evening.

What a nice time of year. What a great time to help out others when you can.

Good night Corp. Happy holidays to you and your folks.

[Malachi151]

Originally posted by Jocko


Bah humbug, you bitter old twit. Looks like someone took a dump in your stocking when you were a kid.

I like Christmas, always have. It has nothign to do with Christianisty though, its and age old celebration of the winter solstace, that has been shunned by Chrisitans until the past 150 years or so and not popularly accepted by Chrisitans until the past 100 years or so. Its a pagan holiday that was RECENTLY adopted by both Christians and Capitalists.

I find it funny that Christains now say "keep Christ in Christmas", when those same groups were tar and feathering people who tried to practice the holiday throughout the first half of America's history.

[Ed]

Originally posted by Malachi151


I like Christmas, always have. It has nothign to do with Christianisty though, its and age old celebration of the winter solstace, that has been shunned by Chrisitans until the past 150 years or so and not popularly accepted by Chrisitans until the past 100 years or so. Its a pagan holiday that was RECENTLY adopted by both Christians and Capitalists.

I find it funny that Christains now say "keep Christ in Christmas", when those same groups were tar and feathering people who tried to practice the holiday throughout the first half of America's history.

Do you ever do any research before you post stuff? Did you know St. Nick came over with the Dutch? Yeah, the puritains were sticks in the mud but certainly did not reflect the US in it's entirety.

You are like a woo-woo researcher: You have your convienient "Truth" and then adjust the facts to fit.

[Malachi151]

Originally posted by Ed


Do you ever do any research before you post stuff? Did you know St. Nick came over with the Dutch? Yeah, the puritains were sticks in the mud but certainly did not reflect the US in it's entirety.

You are like a woo-woo researcher: You have your convienient "Truth" and then adjust the facts to fit.

St. Nick was a Catholic sait that gave presents out on December 6th and it had nothing to do with "Christmas". This was part fo who Christmas was appropriated by the Christians. They merged the celebration of this Catholic saint in with the existing pagan/secular holiday.

The first merging of the Christmas holiday and "St. Nick" occured in the 1800s when he was included in "Twas the Night Before Christmas".

[BTox]

Originally posted by Malachi151


I like Christmas, always have. It has nothign to do with Christianisty though, ...

Hey, I guess Easter has nothing to do with Christianity, too, right? It's really about a big bunny. What a kook...

[Tmy]

I declare that all these holdiays are now secular!!!

Come easter time do you walk into Walmart and find a bunch of bloody Jesus on the cross decorations with the words "Happy Easter" floating above his haed? NO!

[shanek]

Originally posted by Malachi151
Modern Christmas is a manufactured holiday that is only about 90 year old as we know and it was invented by secularists and department stores.

Christmas as it was was illigal in most fo the US until after the Civil War.

Hrmph...I guess that's why Cleveland has been erecting Christmas trees singe 1851 and the Troy Sentinel paper in New York published the famous "A Visit From St. Nicholas" in 1823. I'm sure that's why Christmas caroling was popular by 1850 and Christmas cards were introduced in the 1840s. And I'm sure all of those Currier & Ives Christmas prints (some dating back to the 1830s when they were actually Currier & Stodart) had to be sold on the black market.

Stanta Clause was invented around the turn of the century and only took modern form in the 1900s through advertising campaigns.

No, he wasn't. (http://www.snopes.com/cokelore/santa.asp)

Thank you for proving once again that no one should take you at all seriously.

[Malachi151]

Originally posted by BTox


Hey, I guess Easter has nothing to do with Christianity, too, right? It's really about a big bunny. What a kook...

Yes, I see that you are finally catching on. Easter is another pagan holiday that was stolen by the Christians as well, though it has a longer and more established Christian history than Christmas does.

I don't know what to tell you, I mean all the facts are documented, I guess you are just choosing to ignore them, which it was 99% of people do.

http://www.historychannel.com/exhibits/holidays/christmas/real.html

A few select quotes:

After the American Revolution, English customs fell out of favor, including Christmas. In fact, Congress was in session on December 25, 1789, the first Christmas under America's new constitution. Christmas wasn't declared a federal holiday until June 26, 1870.

It wasn't until the 19th century that Americans began to embrace Christmas. Americans re-invented Christmas, and changed it from a raucous carnival holiday into a family-centered day of peace and nostalgia. But what about the 1800s peaked American interest in the holiday?
The early 19th century was a period of class conflict and turmoil. During this time, unemployment was high and gang rioting by the disenchanted classes often occurred during the Christmas season. In 1828, the New York city council instituted the city's first police force in response to a Christmas riot. This catalyzed certain members of the upper classes to begin to change the way Christmas was celebrated in America.

As Americans began to embrace Christmas as a perfect family holiday, old customs were unearthed. People looked toward recent immigrants and Catholic and Episcopalian churches to see how the day should be celebrated. In the next 100 years, Americans built a Christmas tradition all their own that included pieces of many other customs, including decorating trees, sending holiday cards, and gift-giving. Although most families quickly bought into the idea that they were celebrating Christmas how it had been done for centuries, Americans had really re-invented a holiday to fill the cultural needs of a growing nation.

Read the whole thing and try to learn something...

[BTox]

Originally posted by Malachi151
I don't know what to tell you, I mean all the facts are documented, I guess you are just choosing to ignore them, which it was 99% of people do.


Read the whole thing and try to learn something...

Yo whacko. What I questioned was your ludicrous claim that "It has nothign to do with Christianisty though, ...". Which of course is absurd. Have trouble reading the English language? You and Ion are a pair of nitwits...

[Hypocolius]

Originally posted by BTox


Yo whacko. What I questioned was your ludicrous claim that "It has nothign to do with Christianisty though, ...". Which of course is absurd.

What he originally said was:

Modern Christmas is a manufactured holiday that is only about 90 year old as we know and it

Hardly a "Ludicrous" claim, neither is it "absurd".

Said by anyone other than Malachi this would have been fairly unremarkable, give him a break, it's christmas.

[Malachi151]

Originally posted by BTox


Yo whacko. What I questioned was your ludicrous claim that "It has nothign to do with Christianisty though, ...". Which of course is absurd. Have trouble reading the English language? You and Ion are a pair of nitwits...

Christmas only has anything to do with Christians because they have "said so".

There is NOTHING in the Bible about Christmas. None of the early Christians for the first 400 or so years celebrated Christmas.

The celebration of the birth of a religious figure on December 25th only has origional roots in the Zoroastrian religion, which celebrated the birth of Mithras on December 25th, incidenctly this was a competing religion with Christianity in the Middle East, Asia and Southern Europe.

All of the traditions of Christmas, the tree, holly, missle toe, gift giving, feasting, etc, have roots from non-Christian cultures that had celebrations in December.

Over the centuries various Christian groups have attempted to ban Christmas, and some are still opposed to it for its non-Chrisitan roots.

Duh, put it all together, and you have Chrisitans try ing to ride the bandwagon of a popular non-Chrisitan holday and make up stories as to why its "really" a Christian holiday, which it isn't.

The STRONGEST truely Christian celebration of Christmas has come in the past 100 years in fact, and the Nativity and all of that has become a BIGGER role in the celebration of Christmas in the past 100 years than it was before, there are more Christian songs about Christmas now than before, etc.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Malachi151

Duh, put it all together, and you have Chrisitans try ing to ride the bandwagon of a popular non-Chrisitan holday and make up stories as to why its "really" a Christian holiday, which it isn't.


Welp, it is now. So deal with it and stop whining.

[BTox]

Originally posted by Hypocolius


What he originally said was:



Hardly a "Ludicrous" claim, neither is it "absurd".

Said by anyone other than Malachi this would have been fairly unremarkable, give him a break, it's christmas.

What he originally said is irrelevant. What he did say is: "It has nothign to do with Christianisty though, "

Which is both ludicrous and absurd.

[BTox]

Originally posted by Malachi151


Christmas only has anything to do with Christians because they have "said so".


OK, so you really are a nitwit. Ill leave you be...

[Hypocolius]

Originally posted by BTox


What he originally said is irrelevant. What he did say is: "It has nothign to do with Christianisty though, "

Which is both ludicrous and absurd.

I think you're arguing about semantics. If Malachi changed it to "It originally had ...." it would be acceptable I think, so it's just a question of tense. I also think that what he originally said is important, it sets the tone for the whole argument.

Malachi might come up with some weird sh*t sometimes, but he's not too far off the mark here.