Irradiated Foods

[riptowtan]

I was wondering what everyone's opinions are on irradiated foods. Are they healthier and safer than organic foods, or less nutritious and cancerous? I've heard claims that irradiated foods can cause cancer, and lack nutrition, but then I've also heard irradiated foods eliminate bacteria and are exposed to radiation that's safe for humans.

[paximperium]

Are they healthier and safer than organic foods, organic is more likely to harbor bacteria.

or less nutritious and cancerous? Why?

I've heard claims that irradiated foods can cause cancer, and lack nutrition, Why would it?

but then I've also heard irradiated foods eliminate bacteria That's the idea.

and are exposed to radiation that's safe for humans.Actually no. The radiation used is quite deadly.

[BenBurch]

Irradiated foods are entirely safe. In fact, I wish they would irradiate all meat and produce in the store.

[riptowtan]

I was pretty confident that irradiated foods were safe and nutritious, but I just wanted to make sure since most of the websites I came across were pro-organic food and couldn't find many sources in favor of irradiated foods. This claim was brought up by one of my friends, who has been quite wrong on occasions. I've known for a while not to trust anything my friend says, but I just want to know why exactly he is wrong, and not just attack him ad hominem.

[Brian-M]

Are they healthier and safer than organic foods, or less nutritious and cancerous?


Asking if irradiated food is healthier than organic food is a bit like asking if a duck egg is healthier than a boiled egg. The question doesn't make much sense, because a boiled duck egg is still a duck egg.

I'm going to assume you meant to ask if irradiated food is healthier than fresh food?

I've heard claims that irradiated foods can cause cancer, and lack nutrition,


There's no reason to believe that irradiated food causes cancer. On the other hand, irradiating can destroy some nutrients in the food, but cooking your food does that too.

I've also heard irradiated foods eliminate bacteria and are exposed to radiation that's safe for humans.


Irradiation does destroy bacteria, that's the whole point. It's bacteria which makes food go bad, so destroying the bacteria makes the food to last longer.

As for the radiation, if a human was to be exposed to the same level of radiation used to irradiate food, they'd be dead.

But the radiation used, usually X-rays or Gamma-rays, is electromagnetic radiation, and electromagnetic radiation doesn't make things radioactive. Take the food out of the X-ray machine and the X-rays are gone, just like with a microwave oven.

Hell, microwaves are a form of electromagnetic radiation too. You're basically irradiating your food every time you use a microwave oven.

Irradiating food is harmless.

[Ranb]

The ionizing radiation used to zap the food is different than the non-ionizing microwave radiation used for heating food. Here is a good article on irradiation of food. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irradiated_food and for microwave ovens, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_oven

Ranb

[Brian-M]

I considered mentioning ionizing radiation, but didn't want to clutter up my post with too much detail. If you check the Wikipedia entry on irradiation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irradiation), you'll find that it specifically mentions...
This term also applies to 'non-ionizing radiation as microwaves
So by using your microwave you are irradiating your food. (Just don't trust it to kill bacteria unless it gets hot enough for pasteurization to occur.)

[TShaitanaku]

Irradiated foods are entirely safe. In fact, I wish they would irradiate all meat and produce in the store.

Well,...I don't think I want any of the clerks I've seen working in our local stores handling the cobalt-60 sources on a regular basis, so perhaps it would be best to use centralized, regional irradiation centers! ;)

Seriously, I agree! Would also decrease storage and transport costs by reducing the need for refrigerated trailers and such.

[!Kaggen]

organic is more likely to harbor bacteria.


and whats wrong with bacteria?

[JoeyDonuts]

Wouldn't be a proper irradiated foods thread unless someone mentioned this. (http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Nuka-Cola_Quantum)

[!Kaggen]

Irradiated foods are entirely safe. In fact, I wish they would irradiate all meat and produce in the store.

Then move on to humans since "we" are 10 X more bacterial than human :jaw-dropp

[!Kaggen]

Irradiation does destroy bacteria, that's the whole point. It's bacteria which makes food go bad, so destroying the bacteria makes the food to last longer.



What nonsense.

So the 4 quadrillion bacteria in our gut are making the food in their go bad :boggled:

The best method humans have discovered to preserve food is using lactic acid bacteria.

For example millions and millions of tons of silage is made around the world.
We purposely put "bacteria" onto freshly cut grasses and ferment them anaerobically.
It is the best method to preserve grasses for animal feed.

Irradiation is simplistic way of covering up poor hygiene practices in industrial agriculture.
Its as harmless as nuclear waste disposal.

[shadron]

What nonsense.

So the 4 quadrillion bacteria in our gut are making the food in their go bad :boggled:

The best method humans have discovered to preserve food is using lactic acid bacteria.

For example millions and millions of tons of silage is made around the world.
We purposely put "bacteria" onto freshly cut grasses and ferment them anaerobically.
It is the best method to preserve grasses for animal feed.

Irradiation is simplistic way of covering up poor hygiene practices in industrial agriculture.
Its as harmless as nuclear waste disposal.

No, you're wrong. Irradiation of foods consists first in sealing the food against bacteria and then irradiating it with x-rays or gamma rays to kill the bacteria/parasites/whatever inside, rather than normal pasteurization/canning, in which heat is used to kill the bugs. As pointed out above, after the food is removed from the radiation sources, it is not radioactive, unlike nuclear waste, which is has been subjected to particle radiation (neutron bombardment is the worst for causing contamination). In addition, the food isn't cooked or denatured. It is essentially the same as it went into the irradiator, minus any life.

Almost any bacteria in food, even "good" bacteria will break it down and turn it into goo. That, after all, is what they are doing in our gut. A good bacteria in this context is one that doesn't leave behind a poison, unlike botulism toxin, but any bacteria in a food stuff will destroy it for human consumption. Silage (the fermented corn cuttings you refer to above) is OK for cattle because the process helps break down the cellulose in hay or corn, that the cow has to ruminate on, but humans can't digest cellulose anyway, so it is not useful for us. Sometimes fermentation is useful to humans (bread, cheese, achoholic drinks, etc) but it is more for taste than to preserve the food.

[!Kaggen]

Almost any bacteria in food, even "good" bacteria will break it down and turn it into goo. That, after all, is what they are doing in our gut. A good bacteria in this context is one that doesn't leave behind a poison, unlike botulism toxin, but any bacteria in a food stuff will destroy it for human consumption. Silage (the fermented corn cuttings you refer to above) is OK for cattle because the process helps break down the cellulose in hay or corn, that the cow has to ruminate on, but humans can't digest cellulose anyway, so it is not useful for us. Sometimes fermentation is useful to humans (bread, cheese, achoholic drinks, etc) but it is more for taste than to preserve the food.

What !!!
Apart from the great new scientific term "goo", your knowledge of the history of food preservation leaves much to be desired.
Since when were cattle not useful to humans?
So bread, cheese, alcoholic beverages are only useful sometimes :boggled:

What's your weird definition of "useful" then?

[!Kaggen]

No, you're wrong. Irradiation of foods consists first in sealing the food against bacteria and then irradiating it with x-rays or gamma rays to kill the bacteria/parasites/whatever inside, rather than normal pasteurization/canning, in which heat is used to kill the bugs. As pointed out above, after the food is removed from the radiation sources, it is not radioactive, unlike nuclear waste, which is has been subjected to particle radiation (neutron bombardment is the worst for causing contamination). In addition, the food isn't cooked or denatured. It is essentially the same as it went into the irradiator, minus any life.


You obviously did not understand what I meant by irradiation being as harmful as nuclear waste disposal. It was a contextual comparison not literal one.

[!Kaggen]

Some educational material on fermented foods

http://www.fao.org/docrep/x0560e/x0560e00.htm#con

[!Kaggen]

Fermentation just for taste. Yeah right.

About 60% of the fermented foods of Sudan are famine or survival foods. Many of the fermented foods have been developed in Western Sudan in the Kordofan and Darfur regions, which are traditional famine areas. The strong link between fermented foods and food shortages is revealed by the fact that when a family becomes rich a number of fermented foods are no longer prepared. The techniques used are very effective methods of food preservation. The products can be preserved for years through the double action of fermentation itself (which produces anti-microbial acids) and sun-drying. Sudan is probably the hottest and driest country in Africa. Through the years women have made full use of this free solar energy. Shade temperatures in the summer reach 45-50oC and the hot sands outside the shade reach more than 70oC. Dried and fermented foods together with the seeds and fruits that can be gathered from the wild have saved lives especially those of children in the past and in the present in times of shortage (Dirar, 1992). During the 1983-85 famine, relief workers found that people had survived by producing specific traditional fermented food products, especially Kawal (Arthur, 1986).




Cassava contains a naturally occurring chemical: cyanogenic glucoside. When eaten raw or improperly processed, this substance releases cyanide into the body, which can be fatal. Correct processing removes this chemical. The cassava is first peeled (as about 60-70% of the poison is in the peel) and then soaked in stagnant water or fermented in sacks for about three days. It is sometimes grated or rasped as this helps to speed up the fermentation process. At the beginning of the fermentation, Geotricum candida acts on the cassava. This tends to make the product acidic, which finally kills off the micro-organisms as they cannot exist in such a medium. A second strain of micro-organisms (Cornibacterium lactii), which can tolerate the acidic environment then take over and by the third day 90-95% of the dangerous chemical will have been hydrolysed. The cassava also develops its characteristic flavour. The product is then sieved and the fine starch particles are fried in an iron pan alone over a flame or with some palm oil. During this process most, if not all the remaining toxins are given off. The liquor from a previous fermentation is used as a starter, thereby reducing the period of fermentation to about 6-8 hours.

from http://www.fao.org/docrep/x0560e/x0560e06.htm#1.1.1

[shadron]

What !!!
Apart from the great new scientific term "goo", your knowledge of the history of food preservation leaves much to be desired.
Since when were cattle not useful to humans?

Ummmmm, I think "goo" is fairly graphic and gets the idea across; this is the internet, not a doctoral thesis. Cattle are certainly useful to humans, and I applaud the use of silage as their feed; damn, I ground and hauled enough of it. But I've never known anyone who wanted to join them for lunch. I also have no real desire to irradiate cattle fodder; we were speaking of human food before you brought up bovine repasts, were we not?

So bread, cheese, alcoholic beverages are only useful sometimes :boggled:

What's your weird definition of "useful" then?Read carefully: "Sometimes fermentation is useful to humans but it is more for taste than to preserve the food." We use it when it's appropriate, not all the time. It's good stuff, we just don't use anaerobic fermentation as a common food preservation method. Heat sterilization, drying, salting, pickling, refrigeration and freezing - all do that. But you don't bake bread or 'still wine to keep it good into the winter; you do it because you want bread rather than baked rocks, booze rather than pop.

You obviously did not understand what I meant by irradiation being as harmful as nuclear waste disposal. It was a contextual comparison not literal one.Well, you lost me there. How is it any kind of valid comparison, except perhaps an attempt at scaring the kiddies?

[!Kaggen]

Ummmmm, I think "goo" is fairly graphic and gets the idea across; this is the internet, not a doctoral thesis. Cattle are certainly useful to humans, and I applaud the use of silage as their feed; damn, I ground and hauled enough of it. But I've never known anyone who wanted to join them for lunch. I also have no real desire to irradiate cattle fodder; we were speaking of human food before you brought up bovine repasts, were we not?Why not?

Read carefully: "Sometimes fermentation is useful to humans but it is more for taste than to preserve the food." We use it when it's appropriate, not all the time. It's good stuff, we just don't use anaerobic fermentation as a common food preservation method. Heat sterilization, drying, salting, pickling, refrigeration and freezing - all do that. But you don't bake bread or 'still wine to keep it good into the winter; you do it because you want bread rather than baked rocks, booze rather than pop. "We" is a relative term. The fact that that "we" westerners have forgotten fermentation techniques as a preservation method does not make them redundant, just forgotten. Perhaps its time to re-learn them. I suggest starting here
http://www.amazon.com/Wild-Fermentation-Flavor-Nutrition-Live-Culture/dp/1931498237

Well, you lost me there. How is it any kind of valid comparison, except perhaps an attempt at scaring the kiddies?

The point being that context makes the answer completely different in both cases.

[BenBurch]

Then move on to humans since "we" are 10 X more bacterial than human :jaw-dropp

We'll start with the Republicans and see how it works out, OK?

[Rolfe]

I remember going to a lecture on food irradiation once, and a lot of the barrier was consumer resistance. The lecturer said the only things regularly irradiated are spices, because these tend to be left lying around the field margins and pick up all sorts of rubbish.

One point he did make though was the unsuitability of irradiation for treating anything with a bit of bulk to it. It was only delivering the goods when used on quite thin slices of meat, and even at best was a niche operation for sliced ham and things like that.

Rolfe.

[paximperium]

and whats wrong with bacteria?
Because it can kill you.

[paximperium]

What nonsense.
Yes you are...did you have a point?

[paximperium]

"We" is a relative term. The fact that that "we" westerners have forgotten fermentation techniques as a preservation method does not make them redundant, just forgotten. Perhaps its time to re-learn them. I suggest starting here
http://www.amazon.com/Wild-Fermentation-Flavor-Nutrition-Live-Culture/dp/1931498237
Why should anyone waste their time with it when irradiation is cheaper and more effective?


The point being that context makes the answer completely different in both cases.
like this?So the 4 quadrillion bacteria in our gut are making the food in their go bad :boggled:

[Aepervius]

What nonsense.

So the 4 quadrillion bacteria in our gut are making the food in their go bad :boggled:


Escherichia coli is also a bacteria in our gut, but some type of them are pathogenic when we eat them. Guess what happens with Listeria ? Salmonellae ? Botulism bacteria ?

There is bacteria and bacteria. So many sort of them this is baffling. Fact is, a food stuff which has no bacteria and no fungus (keime?) and a protected atmosphere will not go bad. But your fermented stuff can and DO kill people every year.

[Jorghnassen]

Why should anyone waste their time with it when irradiation is cheaper and more effective?


Is it really cheaper?

I remember going to a lecture on food irradiation once, and a lot of the barrier was consumer resistance. The lecturer said the only things regularly irradiated are spices, because these tend to be left lying around the field margins and pick up all sorts of rubbish.

One point he did make though was the unsuitability of irradiation for treating anything with a bit of bulk to it. It was only delivering the goods when used on quite thin slices of meat, and even at best was a niche operation for sliced ham and things like that.

Interesting. I'd never had thought spices would be a big thing, but that makes a lot of sense. Meat is not the biggest source of food poisoning anyway (because most is cooked enough to get rid of most dangerous things, unlike fresh veggies...).

[!Kaggen]

Because it can kill you.

So can life. Big deal.
And the point is?

[!Kaggen]

Why should anyone waste their time with it when irradiation is cheaper and more effective?


Hitler thought so too.

[!Kaggen]

Escherichia coli is also a bacteria in our gut, but some type of them are pathogenic when we eat them. Guess what happens with Listeria ? Salmonellae ? Botulism bacteria ?

There is bacteria and bacteria. So many sort of them this is baffling. Fact is, a food stuff which has no bacteria and no fungus (keime?) and a protected atmosphere will not go bad. But your fermented stuff can and DO kill people every year.

Yes, if you stay at home all day you have less chance of being in a car accident.:crowded:

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I was wondering what everyone's opinions are on irradiated foods. Are they healthier and safer than organic foods, or less nutritious and cancerous? I've heard claims that irradiated foods can cause cancer, and lack nutrition, but then I've also heard irradiated foods eliminate bacteria and are exposed to radiation that's safe for humans.

They don't cause cancer. They aren't more or less healthy than "organic" food, which in turn isn't more or less healthy than any other produce. I believe the main reason they irradiate the food is to make it last longer. It also kills bacteria and other things, which is in greater abundance in "organic" food.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

What nonsense.

So the 4 quadrillion bacteria in our gut are making the food in their go bad :boggled:

We don't care how fresh it is after we've eaten it.

You were humiliated in the "organic" food thread. You're back for more?

[CurtC]

What nonsense.

So the 4 quadrillion bacteria in our gut are making the food in their go bad :boggled:


Yes, you're right - since all bacteria are exactly alike, there is absolutely no danger in letting your food rot before you eat it. It just adds more bacteria to your body, and that's healthy, right?

Here, Kaggen, how about a nice big helping of organic alfalfa sprouts contaminated with e. coli?

[KingMerv00]

and whats wrong with bacteria?

E. Coli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escherichia_coli)

[paximperium]

Hitler thought so too.
That is the stupidest comeback I have ever read.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

That is the stupidest comeback I have ever read.

I didn't know it was possible to Godwin a thread on irradiated produce. But for the delusional, I suppose anything is possible.

[KingMerv00]

That is the stupidest comeback I have ever read.

It is almost brilliant in its failure isn't it? Did Hitler use radiation for anything?

[The Central Scrutinizer]

It is almost brilliant in its failure isn't it?

Maybe it was some sort of conceptual art? A comment on the state of contemporary society perhaps?

[paximperium]

So can life. Big deal.
And the point is? Reality. Something which seems absent in your logic.

[KingMerv00]

Maybe it was some sort of conceptual art? A comment on the state of contemporary society perhaps?

That's exactly what Mao would have said.

[paximperium]

That's exactly what Mao would have said.
Stalin approves.

[!Kaggen]

We don't care how fresh it is after we've eaten it.

You were humiliated in the "organic" food thread. You're back for more?

You still laughing at your own jokes then.

[!Kaggen]

That is the stupidest comeback I have ever read.

Hey, just trying to get down to your level ;)

[KingMerv00]

Stalin approves.

Oddly, Idi Amin disagrees for some reason.

[KingMerv00]

Hey, just trying to get down to your level ;)

Are you so divorced from rationality that you don't know the difference between a debate and an argumentum ad hitlerum?

I mean really? "Hitler thought so too." It is so nutty is has become a cliche.

[paximperium]

Hey, just trying to get down to your level ;)
That's something Hitler would say.

[!Kaggen]

Why should anyone waste their time with it when irradiation is cheaper and more effective?


Hitler thought so too.

You see its all about context.
I can also make stupid remarks based in ignorance.
The analogy is still there.

[KingMerv00]

You see its all about context.
I can also make stupid remarks based in ignorance.
The analogy is still there.

Your analogy is that Hitler found it easier to kill the Jews therefore everything easier is bad?

[paximperium]

You see its all about context.
I can also make stupid remarks based in ignorance.
The analogy is still there.
I'm sorry but that's about as fact filled as feces.

[!Kaggen]

E. Coli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escherichia_coli)

Yes your right lets kill all those damn sharks.

[The Fallen Serpent]

I'm sorry but that's about as fact filled as feces.

Hey, now don't malign finding facts in feces. There is a lot of useful information to be found in studying feces. It just isn't a pleasant search.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

You still laughing at your own jokes then.

In case you haven't noticed, people in this thread are laughing at you.

[The Fallen Serpent]

Yes your right lets kill all those damn sharks.

Have sharks been linked to deaths from untreated foods now? You must live in a very frightening part of the world where sharks are a real worrisome issue with eating produce and meat.

[!Kaggen]

Your analogy is that Hitler found it easier to kill the Jews therefore everything easier is bad?

Oh dear....

The Problem-Jews/Bacteria/Sharks
The Solution-Eliminate all of them cheaply and effectively.

get the picture.

[KingMerv00]

Have sharks been linked to deaths from untreated foods now? You must live in a very frightening part of the world where sharks are a real worrisome issue with eating produce and meat.

*Opens bag of chips.*


....

*Gets mauled by the bear inside.*

[paximperium]

Oh dear....

The Problem-Jews/Bacteria/Sharks
The Solution-Eliminate all of them cheaply and effectively.

get the picture.
No. But then False Analogies tend to fail miserably like that.

[The Fallen Serpent]

Now Jews? My food is infected with Jews!?!? This is frightening! Is this because my paternal grandparents are Jewish? Or is it something in the food unrelated to me?

Sharks were bad enough but Jews! Oh no!

[!Kaggen]

In case you haven't noticed, people in this thread are laughing at you.

Ahh.. time for you learn how to be funny then ;)

[paximperium]

Now Jews? My food is infected with Jews!?!? This is frightening! Is this because my paternal grandparents are Jewish? Or is it something in the food unrelated to me?

Sharks were bad enough but Jews! Oh no!
Just wait till you meet the Jewish Sharks...or mom.

[KingMerv00]

Oh dear....

The Problem-Jews/Bacteria/Sharks
The Solution-Eliminate all of them cheaply and effectively.

get the picture.

Oh don't worry, I got your point.

Now can you understand why your analogies are wrong? (Hint: Elimination of something isn't always overkill.)

[The Fallen Serpent]

Thankfully I irradiated those bratwursts I just ate. Hopefully the microwave was strong enough to get rid of the bacteria, sharks and Jews in my precooked pork product. Otherwise I might develop swine/shark/jew flu!

[KingMerv00]

Now Jews? My food is infected with Jews!?!?

The nano-Menorah industry has to turn a profit somehow.

[!Kaggen]

Wait I have an idea.
we should just merge with this discussion with this thread
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=157766
and then we can ignorantly continue comparing the dangers of E. Coli with horse riding and taking E.

[KingMerv00]

!Kaggen,

In all seriousness, danger IS a part of life. That does not mean we shouldn't take rational steps to avoid it when it is reasonable to do so. Keeping food clean is just one instance of rational safety.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Wait I have an idea.
we should just merge with this discussion with this thread
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=157766
and then we can ignorantly continue comparing the dangers of E. Coli with horse riding and taking E.

Hitler would approve.

[paximperium]

Wait I have an idea.
we should just merge with this discussion with this thread
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=157766
and then we can ignorantly continue comparing the dangers of E. Coli with horse riding and taking E.
Or a better idea. How about you stop derailing this thread?

[shadron]

Why not?

Because it is a relatively expensive process, and cattle silage, as you've so ably pointed out, doesn't need it. In fact, we don't much use it either, for the same reason.

"We" is a relative term. The fact that that "we" westerners have forgotten fermentation techniques as a preservation method does not make them redundant, just forgotten. Perhaps its time to re-learn them. I suggest starting here
http://www.amazon.com/Wild-Fermentation-Flavor-Nutrition-Live-Culture/dp/1931498237
The author's "book explains to others how to take advantage of natural fermentation processes to produce bread, yogurt, cheese, beer, wine, miso, sauerkraut, kimchi, and other fermented foods." With the exception of miso and kimchi, I think most people are already covered, and imbibing, and I certainly wouldn't call them a lost art. Does natural fermentation preservation apply to any meat, or vegetables such as potatoes, tomatoes, beans, or grains besides the aforementioned? That's where they would really be useful. The book looks to be more of a specialist cookbook than a food preservation work.

The point being that context makes the answer completely different in both cases.Oh, boy, that sure cleared that point up. :rolleyes: I think I agree with the cases not being at all comparable, which makes your original use of the syllogism difficult to fathom.

[Zax63]

My first encounter with irradiated food was when I visited Israel about 30 years ago. They had milk in plastic bags, stored at room temperature until opened with practically indefinite shelf life. I though it was fantastic. It's still hard to find anything similar in the U.S.

[jasonpatterson]

Wow, if ever a thread were destined for Abandon All Hope...

An attempt at a serious reply to crazy fermentation guy:
I grow and ferment some foods: cabbage, cucumbers, wheat, corn, and apples. My reason for fermenting them is to change what I have into something that either tastes better (or at least different) than what I started with, or to preserve it. I have never had a problem with contamination that wasn't obvious (an occasional mold spore surviving in a pickle jar, for instance, but you can see the mold and toss out the batch) and have never gotten sick from eating these foods (sauerkraut, pickles, bread/sourdough, cornbread, pickled corn (delicious), and hard cider.)

I am all for the use of fermentation to preserve food when it's appropriate, but in the vast majority of cases, preserving food without radically changing its flavor, nutritional content, and appearance is desirable. Irradiation is excellent for some uses of this.

[KingMerv00]

My first encounter with irradiated food was when I visited Israel about 30 years ago. They had milk in plastic bags, stored at room temperature until opened with practically indefinite shelf life. I though it was fantastic. It's still hard to find anything similar in the U.S.

My understanding is that food irradiation is very common it just isn't discussed a lot. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_irradiation#Current_U.S._market

[!Kaggen]

The author's "book explains to others how to take advantage of natural fermentation processes to produce bread, yogurt, cheese, beer, wine, miso, sauerkraut, kimchi, and other fermented foods." With the exception of miso and kimchi, I think most people are already covered, and imbibing, and I certainly wouldn't call them a lost art. Does natural fermentation preservation apply to any meat, or vegetables such as potatoes, tomatoes, beans, or grains besides the aforementioned? That's where they would really be useful.
Traditional Italian salami, pepperoni and prosciutto are fermented meat products.

[KingMerv00]

Traditional Italian salami, pepperoni and prosciutto are fermented meat products.

Mussolini thought so too.

[!Kaggen]

!Kaggen,

In all seriousness, danger IS a part of life. That does not mean we shouldn't take rational steps to avoid it when it is reasonable to do so. Keeping food clean is just one instance of rational safety.

Rational steps are being taken around the world using the competitive exclusion principle ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competitive_exclusion).
Treating foods and surfaces exposed to food with probiotic bacteria, specifically lactic acid bacteria works extremely well. In fact better than disinfectants.
http://www.effectivemicro-organisms.co.uk/probiotic_cleaners.html
http://www.vrm.com.au/probiotic/cleaners.htm

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Traditional Italian salami, pepperoni and prosciutto are fermented meat products.

Yeah, too bad we've forgotten how to make all those products.

Oh wait, we haven't! http://www.volpifoods.com/ :rolleyes:

[!Kaggen]

An attempt at a serious reply to crazy fermentation guy:
I grow and ferment some foods: cabbage, cucumbers, wheat, corn, and apples. My reason for fermenting them is to change what I have into something that either tastes better (or at least different) than what I started with, or to preserve it. I have never had a problem with contamination that wasn't obvious (an occasional mold spore surviving in a pickle jar, for instance, but you can see the mold and toss out the batch) and have never gotten sick from eating these foods (sauerkraut, pickles, bread/sourdough, cornbread, pickled corn (delicious), and hard cider.)

I am all for the use of fermentation to preserve food when it's appropriate, but in the vast majority of cases, preserving food without radically changing its flavor, nutritional content, and appearance is desirable. Irradiation is excellent for some uses of this.

Good for you.
Time to take fermentation techniques to the next level.
Wash all you food with the probiotics cultures such as I linked in a previous post and watch them stay preserved without any change in appearance, taste etc

signed

Crazy Fermentation Guy

[jasonpatterson]

One point he did make though was the unsuitability of irradiation for treating anything with a bit of bulk to it. It was only delivering the goods when used on quite thin slices of meat, and even at best was a niche operation for sliced ham and things like that.

Rolfe.

I wonder why this would be... The radiation used is definitely able to penetrate the meat. The vast majority of it should pass right through the food unabsorbed, even, so that even the far side of the meat from the emitter receives virtually the same radiation dose as the near side.

So if this is a slice of ham: ---------
Then when the radiation hits it, some tiny portion is absorbed by the ham, sufficient to kill the bacteria and preserve the food. If it's x-rays or gamma rays, very little of that radiation is stopped by the ham (say 1%, just for laughs, I would think it would be substantially less for the harder radiation.)

So then a thicker piece of meat, as thick as 5 slices of ham would still transmit:
--------- 99.00%
--------- 98.01%
--------- 97.03%
--------- 96.05%
--------- 95.10%

Even with 20 slices, you'd still have about 82% of the radiation passing through unabsorbed (again, assuming 1% is absorbed by the ham.) If the power were turned up just a skosh, it ought to be able to irradiate a pretty thick chunk of meat without starting to cook it or anything.

Blech. After writing all this I figured I'd go see what I could find. The University of Wisconsin has a Food Irradiation Education Group that has a pretty good website (http://uw-food-irradiation.engr.wisc.edu/Facts.html) (probably already linked somewhere in the thread, knowing my luck.) It says that irradiation has been approved for use in the US for meat and poultry and that the radiation can penetrate several feet of food. I think your speaker may have misled you.

[Jeff Corey]

It is almost brilliant in its failure isn't it? Did Hitler use radiation for anything?
Darth Hitler did. It's true! http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/User:Darkfred/Darth_Hitler

[!Kaggen]

Yeah, too bad we've forgotten how to make all those products.

Oh wait, we haven't! http://www.volpifoods.com/ :rolleyes:

LOL

You linked a website claiming

Artisan Tradition.
Made with Love and Time.
Served with Passion.

Sounds like organic farming to me. :D

[jasonpatterson]

Good for you.
Time to take fermentation techniques to the next level.
Wash all you food with the probiotics cultures such as I linked in a previous post and watch them stay preserved without any change in appearance, taste etc

signed

Crazy Fermentation Guy

Then they aren't fermented. Honestly, do you know what the word means?

[The Fallen Serpent]

Rational steps are being taken around the world using the competitive exclusion principle ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competitive_exclusion).
Treating foods and surfaces exposed to food with probiotic bacteria, specifically lactic acid bacteria works extremely well. In fact better than disinfectants.
http://www.effectivemicro-organisms.co.uk/probiotic_cleaners.html
http://www.vrm.com.au/probiotic/cleaners.htm

Now we are into a useful part of the arguement. A few questions on Competitive Exclusion. How does it compare to irradition of foods? Are all harmful bacteria eliminated? What does a cost analysis of two show? Is the flavor of the food meaningfully affected? Is there a benefit to using the two together? Do they interfere with one another and if so at what points?

[!Kaggen]

Mussolini thought so too.

:D

[Terry]

There are issues with irradiation when it is used improperly. One example is shrimp. Shrimp is checked for safety by doing a bacteria count. An unscrupulous vendor can take shrimp that is way past safe levels, irradiate it, and have it pass the bacteria count test. The problem being that the previous high levels of bacteria have already left substantial amounts of toxic metabolism products in the food, making it dangerous to eat.

[KingMerv00]

Rational steps are being taken around the world using the competitive exclusion principle ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competitive_exclusion).
Treating foods and surfaces exposed to food with probiotic bacteria, specifically lactic acid bacteria works extremely well. In fact better than disinfectants.
http://www.effectivemicro-organisms.co.uk/probiotic_cleaners.html
http://www.vrm.com.au/probiotic/cleaners.htm

This is a much better argument but doesn't really mean that irradation is a bad idea does it? All you've said it that there are other ways of reducing harmful bacteria. Irradiation seems more sure fire.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Good for you.
Time to take fermentation techniques to the next level.
Wash all you food with the probiotics cultures such as I linked in a previous post and watch them stay preserved without any change in appearance, taste etc

signed

Crazy Fermentation Guy

No taste in appearance, taste, etc? So just like irradiated food. :rolleyes:

[The Central Scrutinizer]

LOL

You linked a website claiming

Artisan Tradition.
Made with Love and Time.
Served with Passion.

Sounds like organic farming to me. :D

Has nothing to do with "organic" farming. But I think you knew that. LOL.

It's kind of comical (sad really) that you made this claim:
"We" is a relative term. The fact that that "we" westerners have forgotten fermentation techniques as a preservation method does not make them redundant, just forgotten. Perhaps its time to re-learn them.

Then point to salamis and other Italian cured meats as an example of fermented food.

So which is it? Have we forgotten how to ferment or have we not?

[soylent]

What nonsense.

So the 4 quadrillion bacteria in our gut are making the food in their go bad :boggled:

Would you mind if I pull down my pants and take a dump in your food preserves?

Its as harmless as nuclear waste disposal.

I agree. But then I think nuclear waste disposal is perfectly harmless and you seem to think otherwise.

Hitler thought so too.

Hitler thought it was cheaper to irradiate food than to ferment it? He also liked children and dogs; are you going to differentiate yourself from Hitler by giving Fido and little Billy both barrels of a shotgun?

[soylent]

One exceptionally good use of irradiated food that I don't see mentioned in this thread is hospital food for immunocompromised patients(chemo, organ transplants and the like). These foods are very harsly irradiated(tens of kilograys) to the point of starting to alter taste(though not nearly as much as cooking the food will alter its taste).

[shadron]

Traditional Italian salami, pepperoni and prosciutto are fermented meat products.

OK, then, I guess you'll agree that no one is avoiding fermented foods. Who doesn't like Italian subs? You might want to note that they could possibly irradiate them to preserve them, because leaving them out will certainly spoil them; their fermented nature won't protect them from that.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

One exceptionally good use of irradiated food that I don't see mentioned in this thread is hospital food for immunocompromised patients(chemo, organ transplants and the like). These foods are very harsly irradiated(tens of kilograys) to the point of starting to alter taste(though not nearly as much as cooking the food will alter its taste).

I bet if those people ate "organic" food they wouldn't be in the hospital in the first place. :)

[BenBurch]

That is the stupidest comeback I have ever read.

If I had responded to him "Eat feces and die." it would have been uncivil...

But right on target to the issue of the bacteria in the gut!

[!Kaggen]

OK, then, I guess you'll agree that no one is avoiding fermented foods. Who doesn't like Italian subs? You might want to note that they could possibly irradiate them to preserve them, because leaving them out will certainly spoil them; their fermented nature won't protect them from that.

That is the whole point of them being fermented. It helps preserve them due to lactic acid bacteria reducing the pH which

"makes the meat an inhospitable environment for other, dangerous bacteria and imparts the tangy flavor that separates salami from machine-dried pork" from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salami

[!Kaggen]

This is a much better argument but doesn't really mean that irradation is a bad idea does it? All you've said it that there are other ways of reducing harmful bacteria. Irradiation seems more sure fire.

The is a reason why "cheap and efficient "irradiation is popular in industrial level food processing.
Fact 1. When you are working with huge volumes of food with many handlers in huge factories it is very difficult to maintain hygiene.
Fact 2. When you sell to millions of people the statistical chances of having one of these people fall sick is much higher than if you sell only to 100.
Fact 3. You need maximum protection from exposure to law-suites if you have a higher potential exposure.
Fact 4. You take out the weapons of mass destruction.
Fact 5. Ask questions later

[!Kaggen]

Now we are into a useful part of the arguement. A few questions on Competitive Exclusion. How does it compare to irradition of foods? Are all harmful bacteria eliminated? What does a cost analysis of two show? Is the flavor of the food meaningfully affected? Is there a benefit to using the two together? Do they interfere with one another and if so at what points?

Where was logic born?

[The Fallen Serpent]

Where was logic born?

What? I was seriously curious about this. Hence I asked what I thought to be relevant questions. My knowledge of food preservation and preparation is rather limited. On this forum people are throwing around a lot of new concepts that are affecting my every day life in regards to food. The thread is about irradiating food and you disagree with the practice and promote other practices. I thought it was reasonable to seek knowledge from you about that once you displayed a willingness to have an actual conversation on the subject but perhaps I was wrong. I'll look elsewhere :rolleyes:

[TShaitanaku]

There are issues with irradiation when it is used improperly. One example is shrimp. Shrimp is checked for safety by doing a bacteria count. An unscrupulous vendor can take shrimp that is way past safe levels, irradiate it, and have it pass the bacteria count test. The problem being that the previous high levels of bacteria have already left substantial amounts of toxic metabolism products in the food, making it dangerous to eat.

I suspect that if and when irradiation becomes more widespread, that toxin test strips/swabs would become more standard and prevelant as safety tests, which probably should be the case now anyway.

[TShaitanaku]

This is a much better argument but doesn't really mean that irradation is a bad idea does it? All you've said it that there are other ways of reducing harmful bacteria. Irradiation seems more sure fire.

I would think a combination the best, reduction of harmful bacteria from contact and processing and then a direct killing of all bacteria in the final food product to enhance storage/self-life.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

The is a reason why "cheap and efficient "irradiation is popular in industrial level food processing.
Fact 1. When you are working with huge volumes of food with many handlers in huge factories it is very difficult to maintain hygiene.
Fact 2. When you sell to millions of people the statistical chances of having one of these people fall sick is much higher than if you sell only to 100.
Fact 3. You need maximum protection from exposure to law-suites if you have a higher potential exposure.
Fact 4. You take out the weapons of mass destruction.
Fact 5. Ask questions later

In the real world (the one we occupy) it's actually more like this:

Fact 1. When you are working with huge volumes of food with many handlers in huge factories it is very difficult to maintain hygiene.
Fact 2. Ask questions on how to make it safer
Fact 3. Irradiation is shown to be effective with no side effects
Fact 4. Irradiate
Fact 5. Laugh at the Organotards

[!Kaggen]

What? I was seriously curious about this. Hence I asked what I thought to be relevant questions. My knowledge of food preservation and preparation is rather limited. On this forum people are throwing around a lot of new concepts that are affecting my every day life in regards to food. The thread is about irradiating food and you disagree with the practice and promote other practices. I thought it was reasonable to seek knowledge from you about that once you displayed a willingness to have an actual conversation on the subject but perhaps I was wrong. I'll look elsewhere :rolleyes:

Wrong answer.
The Mediterranean is the right answer.
The point being that we did manage to develop logic without irradiation, but not without fermentation.
Look, I have nothing against irradiation, I just don't subscribe to its logic....

[!Kaggen]

In the real world (the one we occupy) it's actually more like this:

Fact 1. When you are working with huge volumes of food with many handlers in huge factories it is very difficult to maintain hygiene.
Fact 2. Ask questions on how to make it safer
Fact 3. Irradiation is shown to be effective with no side effects
Fact 4. Irradiate
Fact 5. Laugh at the Organotards

translation below

Fact 1. Find a week point in the system
Fact 2. Ignore why its a week point in the first place.
Fact 3. Work out the hustle to cover it up
Fact 4. Act it out.
Fact 5. Wait for applause.....in your case self-applause.

[The Fallen Serpent]

You are confusing me. You are unwilling to discuss the subject because you disagree with the logic of irradition and that is based on irradiation being discovered after logic and fermentation being discovered before logic...?

You are not selling the methods you promote very well. I'm willing to engage in a discussion about what processes might be better but you keep going off on tangents instead of discussing the actual benefits and risks of the procedures.

Fine. It appears you are not interested in actually spreading knowledge and educating people you just want people to accept your claims at face value with links to products. I could be wrong by your unwillingness to discuss your own claims leads me to this thinking.

[!Kaggen]

You are confusing me. You are unwilling to discuss the subject because you disagree with the logic of irradition and that is based on irradiation being discovered after logic and fermentation being discovered before logic...?

You are not selling the methods you promote very well. I'm willing to engage in a discussion about what processes might be better but you keep going off on tangents instead of discussing the actual benefits and risks of the procedures.

Fine. It appears you are not interested in actually spreading knowledge and educating people you just want people to accept your claims at face value with links to products. I could be wrong by your unwillingness to discuss your own claims leads me to this thinking.

Sorry, been a long week selling and I am tired.
Shop opens tomorrow again and
I promise to be in top form ;)

[The Central Scrutinizer]

translation below

Fact 1. Find a week point in the system
Fact 2. Ignore why its a week point in the first place.
Fact 3. Work out the hustle to cover it up
Fact 4. Act it out.
Fact 5. Wait for applause.....in your case self-applause.

Bad translation.

You do realize this is a science forum, right?

[KingMerv00]

translation below

Fact 1. Find a week point in the system
Fact 2. Ignore why its a week point in the first place.
Fact 3. Work out the hustle to cover it up
Fact 4. Act it out.
Fact 5. Wait for applause.....in your case self-applause.

Can't you encourage hygiene AND irradiate?

[Brian-M]

My first encounter with irradiated food was when I visited Israel about 30 years ago. They had milk in plastic bags, stored at room temperature until opened with practically indefinite shelf life. I though it was fantastic. It's still hard to find anything similar in the U.S.


Try UHT milk. It's the same idea, only heat is used to kill the bacteria instead of ionizing radiation. (And stored in cartons instead of bags for convenience.) I get UHT milk so I can buy a large amount at once without worrying about it going off before I use it. You'll probably find some in the same aisle of your store as tea and coffee. (Stored at room temperature, of course.)

[Brian-M]

I remember going to a lecture on food irradiation once, and a lot of the barrier was consumer resistance. The lecturer said the only things regularly irradiated are spices, because these tend to be left lying around the field margins and pick up all sorts of rubbish.

One point he did make though was the unsuitability of irradiation for treating anything with a bit of bulk to it. It was only delivering the goods when used on quite thin slices of meat, and even at best was a niche operation for sliced ham and things like that.

Rolfe.


That doesn't sound like X-ray or Gamma-ray irradiation. Could he have been talking about Ultraviolet Irradiation?

Here's a Wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultraviolet_germicidal_irradiation#Food_and_bevera ge_protection

And a quote from Answers.com (http://www.answers.com/topic/ultraviolet-uv-irradiation)
Wavelength for maximal germicidal action is 260 nm; it has poor penetrating power and is only of value for surface sterilization or sterilizing air and water. Also used for tenderizing and ageing of meat, curing cheese, and prevention of mould growth on the surface of bakery products.

[Brian-M]

So the 4 quadrillion bacteria in our gut are making the food in their go bad :boggled:


The bacteria in our gut is breaking the food down, aiding digestion. Not all bacteria is as helpful as the kind that lives symbiotically inside our intestines. Many bacteria will render food toxic and inedible.

The best method humans have discovered to preserve food is using lactic acid bacteria.


That's not even remotely true. Any one of the following methods can preserve food at least just as well, if not better than fermenting...


Dehydrating
Pickling
Canning
Salting
Irradiating
Freezing

Irradiation is simplistic way of covering up poor hygiene practices in industrial agriculture.


Once again, that's not even remotely true. No amount of good hygiene will keep food bacteria-free. Bacteria is all around us, in the soil in which our food is grown, on the animals we use for meat, in the air we breath. Good hygiene cannot prevent unwanted bacteria from spoiling our food. Irradiation is simply a means for preventing food from being spoiled by unwanted bacteria.

Its as harmless as nuclear waste disposal.
You obviously did not understand what I meant by irradiation being as harmful as nuclear waste disposal. It was a contextual comparison not literal one.


Then please provide the context for us. As it stands, your statement appears absurd, and slightly insane.

Hitler thought so too.

It is almost brilliant in its failure isn't it? Did Hitler use radiation for anything?


I think some of the unethical medical experiments under Hitler's regime involved irradiating prisoners to induce sterility. As this has nothing to do with the subject of food irradiation, !Kaggen is probably just trolling.

Oh dear....

The Problem-Jews/Bacteria/Sharks
The Solution-Eliminate all of them cheaply and effectively.

get the picture.


No, wait! !Kaggen is actually comparing the food industry's mass killing of bacteria with Hitler's mass killing of Jews! Clearly he's an adamant bacteria-rights activist who feels that killing bacteria is an immoral and murderous act. Down with bacterium killers! Single celled organisms have feelings too! Antibiotics are weapons of mass destruction!

Treating foods and surfaces exposed to food with probiotic bacteria, specifically lactic acid bacteria works extremely well. In fact better than disinfectants.


Comparison to disinfectant is irrelevant. We're talking about food irradiation.

How does irradiation compare to probiotic bacteria? A tub of yogurt made with probiotic bacteria has a shelf life of a few weeks, or months at most, and that's only if it's kept refrigerated. Irradiate the same tub of yogurt, killing off all the bacteria, probiotic or otherwise, and you have a tub of yogurt that's good to eat for years, no refrigeration required.

Clearly, irradiation beats the pants off probiotic bacteria when it comes to preservation of food sealed in airtight packaging.

The is a reason why "cheap and efficient "irradiation is popular in industrial level food processing.
Fact 1. When you are working with huge volumes of food with many handlers in huge factories it is very difficult to maintain hygiene.


Food processing factories go to great lengths to maintain hygiene. Do you have any reason to believe that irradiating food results less stringent hygiene measures in the food processing industry?

[TShaitanaku]

That doesn't sound like X-ray or Gamma-ray irradiation. Could he have been talking about Ultraviolet Irradiation?

Here's a Wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultraviolet_germicidal_irradiation#Food_and_bevera ge_protection

And a quote from Answers.com (http://www.answers.com/topic/ultraviolet-uv-irradiation)

Here's a few that have information on the Cobalt-60 (and other) systems:

http://uw-food-irradiation.engr.wisc.edu/Process.html

http://www.epa.gov/rpdweb00/sources/food_irrad.html

http://www.gao.gov/archive/2000/rc00217.pdf

[jasonpatterson]

How does irradiation compare to probiotic bacteria? A tub of yogurt made with probiotic bacteria has a shelf life of a few weeks, or months at most, and that's only if it's kept refrigerated. Irradiate the same tub of yogurt, killing off all the bacteria, probiotic or otherwise, and you have a tub of yogurt that's good to eat for years, no refrigeration required.


What's even funnier is that the bacteria in the probiotic yogurt you're talking about cause severe diarrhea in people who don't eat it regularly. I have students who go on health food kicks and start eating it without knowing. They usually miss a couple of days of school. When I started making my own yogurt, it did a number on me as well...