Homeopathic Meds FROM MY VET!

[Drewbot]

My wife's cat is losing it's hair in clumps.

I'd been to the vet twice:

first they tested the spot and found bacteria present on the skin. (Big deal right?) they prescribed an anti-bacterial/anti-fungal/anti-mite topical gel to apply.

second: they tested for fungus, nothing, so they gave her a shot of antibiotics.

The third time: they tested for mites, nothing. so the vet says, you should try these drops, I think your cat might be 'obsessive compulsive', it is an herbal-chamomille drop that you put in their water. It's supposed to calm them down.

Anyway, I say 'I CAN'T BELIEVE I"M GIVING MY PET HOMEOPATHIC MEDICINE"

The vet looks at me and says "Are you serious or joking?"

I say: "I'm serious and joking"

She says "IT helped my two dogs get over separation anxiety"

I say: "Well I'm NOT going home to my wife empty-handed So give it to me"


I feel guilty, but my wife is happy, the cat will probably get better, and we will have to thank the HOMEOPATHIC medicine for the improvement.

Am I wrong for bringing this home to the cat? Or did I do the right thing?

Has anyone else been railroaded into using vetrinarian Homeopathic medicine?

[Professor Yaffle]

You say it was a herbal chamomile drop - what indication did you have that it was homeopathic?

[Safe-Keeper]

A whole drop in a bowl of water? Definitely not related to homoeopathy.

[KingMerv00]

A whole drop in a bowl of water? Definitely not related to homoeopathy.

Unless the bowl is Madison Square Garden.

[Drewbot]

You say it was a herbal chamomile drop - what indication did you have that it was homeopathic?

It said "Homeopathic" on the label. It has chamomile and other things in it, I just remember the chamomile tag. It said on the back 6c/10c or something like that. I will go home at lunch and get more detail.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Maybe homeopathy works in animals!

[William Parcher]

Why is this thread tagged with "bigfoot"?

[Puppycow]

It said "Homeopathic" on the label. It has chamomile and other things in it, I just remember the chamomile tag. It said on the back 6c/10c or something like that. I will go home at lunch and get more detail.

These days it's confusing because they now market herbal "remedies" as "homeopathic."

[jasonpatterson]

You should be ashamed for having purchased it. Your vet should be abandoned for having sold it to you. Your guilt/shame is appropriate. ;)

[The Fallen Serpent]

These days it's confusing because they now market herbal "remedies" as "homeopathic."

This is a good point. I would be curious if the OP followed up with the vet. Asked if this was really a Homeopathic Remedy or if it was actuall an Herbal Remedy that is labeled to take advantage of the current market. Chammomille as an herbal remedy is a traditional usage but has no scientific backing. A warning about chammomille is possible alergic reactions to it so there is a possible danger, though I have no idea how prevalent chammomille alergies are among cats.

[Amapola]

This is a disconcerting trend among some vets. They offer "alternative" treatments, and the practice grows by leaps and bounds. I have several neighbors who buy into this hook, line and sinker. There is a local vet who will do chiropractic manipulations on your horse; many of my friends use her. (I don't except for equine dentistry, which she is very good at.) Others do cold laser therapy, homeopathy, herbs etc. which as far as I can see is simply a way to part money from the owner.

In a way I can't blame them. Becoming a vet is not only difficult it's very expensive. They can have huge student loans they must repay. This vet saw your cat several times, offered conventional therapy, and only then offered the homeopathy/herbal (whatever) stuff.

There is a skeptical vet site (http://skeptvet.com/) that has some good information on it.

My personal belief is that the "alternative" medicine for animals thing has more to do with the owner being one of the Worried Well and transferring this to their pet. Some of the vets out there are taking advantage of this and like I say, in a way I can't blame them.

[Drewbot]

I was going to say forget it, but then I thought of the horror I would be put through, when I told my wife that I had nothing for her cat. Then she would have made an appt. she could have gone to, and would have bought it anyway. (rationalizing my decision)

Re: why is this tagged with bigfoot? Must have been a typo, mah bad.

[IMST]

This is a disconcerting trend among some vets. They offer "alternative" treatments, and the practice grows by leaps and bounds. I have several neighbors who buy into this hook, line and sinker. There is a local vet who will do chiropractic manipulations on your horse; many of my friends use her. (I don't except for equine dentistry, which she is very good at.) Others do cold laser therapy, homeopathy, herbs etc. which as far as I can see is simply a way to part money from the owner.

In a way I can't blame them. Becoming a vet is not only difficult it's very expensive. They can have huge student loans they must repay. This vet saw your cat several times, offered conventional therapy, and only then offered the homeopathy/herbal (whatever) stuff.

There is a skeptical vet site (http://skeptvet.com/) that has some good information on it.

My personal belief is that the "alternative" medicine for animals thing has more to do with the owner being one of the Worried Well and transferring this to their pet. Some of the vets out there are taking advantage of this and like I say, in a way I can't blame them.

Thank you much for the link. I'm having issues with my vet for my new cats pushing way more than seems necessary and I'm grateful for the resources.

[GreNME]

This is a disconcerting trend among some vets. They offer "alternative" treatments, and the practice grows by leaps and bounds. I have several neighbors who buy into this hook, line and sinker.

Actually, if I know the drops being mentioned in the first post-- and I believe I do-- this is an herbal remedy that actually tends to have a measurable (though small) effect on pets. Part of it is indeed the chamomile that was already mentioned, and a few other parts in the drops perform the same type of calming. It's not a strong concentration but it is a concentrate, hence only putting drops in the water or directly on the tongue. The effect it should have on your cat should range between a mild sleepiness to practically nothing at all, depending on how many drops and the resistance to stuff like chamomile in your cat.

These drops-- again, if they're the same as what I've used before on my dog, and I have good reason to think they are-- really aren't much different than a suggestion to a person who is restless and not sleeping well (but isn't suffering a strong medical disorder) to drink some chamomile tea before going to bed. It's a very mild sedative, having less overt effect than tryptophan in turkey meat, and is often effective at easing the jittery edges of nervousness or restlessness without doping a person (or animal) up.

[Stout]

I have a cat that is IMO obsessive compulsive and she's literally tearing out her own fur for no damn reason. She's not overly stressed, she has everything she can possibly want and is more than used to getting her own way.

The cat is a 16 year old siamese female, not my cat really but one who just moved in here four years ago for reasons neither I, nor her proper owned can fathom.

I've talked to a couple of vets about this issue and both have said "we could put the on anti-psychotics...but we really don't want to, not for that sort of behaviour. No "alternative" was offered but I am curious as to just how a vet might think a psychosomatic treatment like homeopathy might be effective in an animal whose "unclear on the concept".

This could be an example of your vet trying to "treat' your wife by giving her something that might make her feel that the cat's behaviour is diminishing. Selling hope, if you will.

[Drewbot]

Homeopet- anxiety relief
http://www.1800petmeds.com/HomeoPet+Anxiety-prod2144.html

From above website:
More Information:
Brand Name
Anxiety (HomeoPet)

Active Ingredient(s):
Chamomilla, Valeriana, Borax, Cypripedium Pub., Ignatia A., Colch. Verat. A.

What is this product used for:
Fretting, fear, anxious and unwanted behavior from thunderstorms, travel, being left alone, vet and grooming visits, can be helped with this fast acting, non-sedating liquid. Nature's gentle stress reliever quickly promotes a sense of calm.




FROM THE LABEL:

Homeopet LLC, natural homeopathic hp anxiety relief.

Chamomille, Valeriana, Borax

Cypripedium Pub IGNATIA, Colch, Verat A

6C and 30C in 20%


Can anyone translate?

[pakeha]

deleted. Wrong forum.

[GreNME]

Stout: look into the chamomile drops, or ask your vet if they know about vitamin B-1 powder.

Here at our house, we've employed both, but only under the supervision of a vet who has had a very good history of animal behavior in his academic background. I explained what's in the drops in my previous post, and it's at worst a possible solution that might help and won't hurt. The vitamin B-1 powder is more complex, because what it actually is, as far as the science is concerned, is a component of an amino acid that, when in deficiency can contribute to some problems that often display as behavioral problems. Ask your vet about the possibility of a thiamin deficiency, and whether small amounts of B1 powder (which is essentially thiamin) in the cat's food might help.

As has been explained to me, there are many remedies out there for veterinary treatment, particularly of animals like cats and dogs (who require a higher protein intake than humans), to problems like behavior or activities that resemble behavior problems, but because the science behind them isn't widely disseminated or proprietary (meaning not patentable) the newer methods aren't always as well known. What the vet you mentioned said about anti-psychotics is very accurate-- animals can't communicate the efficacy of anti-psychotics, and as such can't let us know of the effects are too strong or debilitating, and many vets are opposed to turning pets into zombies by attempting to dose them. Many of the remedies like the drops mentioned in the first post are forms of known chemicals that have a measurable and mild reaction that can be gauged without risking debilitating the animal's communicative abilities that it has (which are rudimentary compared to our own). Stuff like the B1 powder suggestion I made has more to do with the diet requirements of many carnivorous domestic animals, because some of the food that's made for dogs and cats is sorely lacking in nutrition-- a dog can actually suffer malnutrition while eating only Ol'Roy dog food, for example, even if the amounts or servings are copious. A cat can suffer malnutrition eating only dog food, because dog food doesn't have enough protein in it to sustain a cat's diet. Ferrets, on the other hand, need even more protein than adult cats do, or else they too can suffer malnutrition. In that, supplements, particularly of amino acid compounds, can help to balance out a pet's diet and have a significant effect on their behavior.

Another thing to keep in mind for your cat in particular, Stout, is that 16 years is an age where it's quickly approaching the end of its life, so some of the symptoms of behavior you're seeing might be related to that. There's no medicine to treat that, though you can explore possibilities like the early onset of renal failure being present, and shifting your cat's food to something that's easier on their constitution, which can help to extend its life while improving its quality of life-- and of the two, I tend to focus more on the latter. There might be a condition that you can do nothing about, however, in which case your options are limited to doing whatever you can to keep the cat comfortable. At 16 years old it's difficult to say, but vets usually tend to not want to take extreme life-preserving measures on pets of very advanced ages because the procedures are often invasive (and thus risky) and quite likely to lower the quality of life, which isn't a positive for the pet itself.

[William Parcher]

6C and 30C in 20%

Can anyone translate?


6C = 10-12

30C = 10-60 Dilution advocated by Hahnemann for most purposes: on average, this would require giving two billion doses per second to six billion people for 4 billion years to deliver a single molecule of the original material to any patient.

From Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy)

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Aren't all cats obsessive compulsive anyway?

A genuine question from someone who is neither a cat or dog person.

[shawmutt]

The day my animals need special magic medicine is the day I put them to sleep.

[GreNME]

Homeopet- anxiety relief
http://www.1800petmeds.com/HomeoPet+Anxiety-prod2144.html

Can anyone translate?

Sure can. You're using what we're we've used here at home.

First and foremost, the "homeo" stuff on the name and label are crappy marketing junk. Why this company deigned to use that as their name and "type" of treatment is beyond me, but I guess that's marketing for you. Additionally, the "what this product is used for" part is more marketing speak, since the contents are (very mild) sedatives despite their assurances otherwise.

The ingredients list seem to make it sound like they're using more "medical" types of ingredients than they actually are. The two first ingredients are basically chamomile extract (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamomilla_recutita) and valerian extract (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerian_%28herb%29), and as such are mild sedatives and do have side-effects you should be aware of-- for example, chamomile extract contains coumarin, which is a blood thinner, so it's not suggested to give this regularly unless advised to by a doctor.

The doses are about twice as high as necessary, and are just as likely to make a pet sleepy as it is to have any beneficial medical effect. While I wouldn't call my own testing at home of dosages strict science, experimentation has shown that 2-3 drops on a biscuit or the tongue are sufficient (on my 95lb German Shepherd), and the effects take between 15-30 minutes (meaning not immediate). In the description of effects and dosage, they are definitely wildly guessing and exaggerating, since the effects are literally no better than that of someone who has just drank a cup or two of chamomile tea, and to consider that medically significant is stretching the meaning of the word "significant" quite a bit. The mild sedative effect shouldn't even make them tired.

Short translation: a lot of hype about its effects, and a poor use of marketing in its name and description.

[Stout]

Thanks GreNME

I will look into the drops on Monday, today we have tho Olympic torch relay and getting around is a real hassle with all the road closures and such. I'll go to "the kinder gentler" vet clinic as they probably have more experience with this sort of thing. They're the clinic who, when I phoned them, told me they didn't carry any insecticide and recommended that I control the flea infestation I was complaining about through cleaning everything. This wasn't an option unfortunately because I have a little kid and he was getting eaten alive. I'm hoping they'll be anti-anti-psychotic and at least have some "alternatives" to suggest. In this case, I will at least try the woo;), there's nothing to lose except a bit of cash.

Other than the pulling out her fur, this cat doesn't have any quality of life issues, other than her being really skinny. I asked the vet if I should try to fatten her up and I was told, as well as being told by other siamese cat owners that this is typical. True, she's not the ninja that she used to be but she has no apparent problems getting around and when i compare her to my other cat whose 11 years old, she seems more active than him.

I'm feeding them Iams catfood and the label assures me that it's the good stuff, but I'll ask about vitamin supplements too. One other thing I hear is that siamese cats can go on a lot longer than 16 so I'm expecting she'll be around for some years to come. I will switch to the "specially formulated for older cats" variety next time I buy catfood, which is frequently, because I now have four cats eating here. Only two actually live here and I'll focus on their needs while leaving the freeloaders ( neighbours cats, I don't mind ) to sort it out at home.

TBH, the pulling out her fur isn't all that bad right now. last spring it was horrific, then she stopped, and she's started doing it again, but much, much less aggressively than she was doing before. In fact, last spring I had to but out signs in front of our place telling people that the cat was old and pulling out her own fur due to a few close calls with people trying to "rescue" her.

[Dogdoctor]

If I were you I would seriously consider getting a new vet. If you feel you have a good relationship you might request none of that hogwash. Unfortunately some vets do silly bs like that.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

If I were you I would seriously consider getting a new vet. If you feel you have a good relationship you might request none of that hogwash. Unfortunately some vets do silly bs like that.

It sounds to me like the vet has given up. They don't know what is wrong, so they say "here, use this".

[MrQhuest]

30 mg of placebo/ twice daily
take with meals.
Rx

What sounds better? A Vet saying "I have no idea." Or the Vet saying "Here, try this."
I know which one pays better.


MrQ

[Amapola]

It sounds to me like the vet has given up. They don't know what is wrong, so they say "here, use this".

I agree. I think in addition the vet is trying to "treat" the owner. As the OP has said, if he did not show up with *SOMETHING* the consequences might have been dire. Sometimes, there just IS nothing useful that can be done.

I think human doctors sometimes face this same dilemma.

[Dogdoctor]

It sounds to me like the vet has given up. They don't know what is wrong, so they say "here, use this".

It's a silly treatment because it is made from potentially active ingredients but diluted and never been shown scientifically to be useful for whatever undiagnosed problem the pet has. That shows how vets fool themselves. Try this miracle (fake) drug. If you pet gets better then it worked and if not then maybe we try another miracle (fake) drug. Silliness. I guess maybe the vet isn't sure or is making a guess and trying a treatment which is ok. It's only that the treatment has almost no chance of working and if the cat gets better it is very likely unrelated to the treatment.

[George152]

Change your Vet.
If they have to resort to hokus pokus instead of using tested remedies go elsewhere.

[fls]

Sure can. You're using what we're we've used here at home.

First and foremost, the "homeo" stuff on the name and label are crappy marketing junk. Why this company deigned to use that as their name and "type" of treatment is beyond me, but I guess that's marketing for you. Additionally, the "what this product is used for" part is more marketing speak, since the contents are (very mild) sedatives despite their assurances otherwise.

The ingredients list seem to make it sound like they're using more "medical" types of ingredients than they actually are. The two first ingredients are basically chamomile extract (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamomilla_recutita) and valerian extract (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerian_%28herb%29), and as such are mild sedatives and do have side-effects you should be aware of-- for example, chamomile extract contains coumarin, which is a blood thinner, so it's not suggested to give this regularly unless advised to by a doctor.

I don't understand why you are under the impression that this treatment contains any molecules of chamomile or valerian?

Linda

[Dogdoctor]

30 mg of placebo/ twice daily
take with meals.
Rx

What sounds better? A Vet saying "I have no idea." Or the Vet saying "Here, try this."
I know which one pays better.


MrQ
I don't know about you but if they are going to charge me money for it then it better have at least some reasonable chance of working.

[tesscaline]

Thanks GreNME

I will look into the drops on Monday, today we have tho Olympic torch relay and getting around is a real hassle with all the road closures and such. I'll go to "the kinder gentler" vet clinic as they probably have more experience with this sort of thing. They're the clinic who, when I phoned them, told me they didn't carry any insecticide and recommended that I control the flea infestation I was complaining about through cleaning everything. This wasn't an option unfortunately because I have a little kid and he was getting eaten alive. I'm hoping they'll be anti-anti-psychotic and at least have some "alternatives" to suggest. In this case, I will at least try the woo;), there's nothing to lose except a bit of cash.

Other than the pulling out her fur, this cat doesn't have any quality of life issues, other than her being really skinny. I asked the vet if I should try to fatten her up and I was told, as well as being told by other siamese cat owners that this is typical. True, she's not the ninja that she used to be but she has no apparent problems getting around and when i compare her to my other cat whose 11 years old, she seems more active than him.

I'm feeding them Iams catfood and the label assures me that it's the good stuff, but I'll ask about vitamin supplements too. One other thing I hear is that siamese cats can go on a lot longer than 16 so I'm expecting she'll be around for some years to come. I will switch to the "specially formulated for older cats" variety next time I buy catfood, which is frequently, because I now have four cats eating here. Only two actually live here and I'll focus on their needs while leaving the freeloaders ( neighbours cats, I don't mind ) to sort it out at home.

TBH, the pulling out her fur isn't all that bad right now. last spring it was horrific, then she stopped, and she's started doing it again, but much, much less aggressively than she was doing before. In fact, last spring I had to but out signs in front of our place telling people that the cat was old and pulling out her own fur due to a few close calls with people trying to "rescue" her.Do you still have the flea infestation? If so that might actually explain things...

[Stout]

Do you still have the flea infestation? If so that might actually explain things...

No, it was an overnight phenomenon. I usually treat the cats in the spring and summer with Advantage but I *assumed* I wouldn't need to in October, which this year was unseasonably warm I'm just north of you, in Victoria.

When she was aggressively pulling out her fur, last April, I thought that too, and when I combed her, i found no evidence of fleas. As of now, her fur pulling is rather minimal, just on her tail but every time I see fur on the carpet I expect it to get worse.

I'll give the Chamomile a try, but the problem is this cat prefers to drink "wild water" meaning she prefers to drink out of the fishpond, the birdbath and puddles on the ground.

[Christian Klippel]

The effect it should have on your cat should range between a mild sleepiness to practically nothing at all .....

_Mild_ sleepiness? Sounds like making the cat more active. At least if i compare to my cats, which love to sleep for the most part of the day, and they can go out and in whenever they want (cat door installed).

:D

Greetings,

Chris

[jasonpatterson]

First and foremost, the "homeo" stuff on the name and label are crappy marketing junk. Why this company deigned to use that as their name and "type" of treatment is beyond me, but I guess that's marketing for you.

Short translation: a lot of hype about its effects, and a poor use of marketing in its name and description.

But why would they falsely include 6C and 20C on the label? I guess my question is really, "What makes you believe that this isn't a bottle of water?" I've had dogs and cats, and falling asleep within 15-30 minutes is pretty much par for the course.

If it were me, I would double dose the dog and see what happened, or better yet, not dose the dog at all and see what happened, just in case they really have lied.

[jsfisher]

If it were me, I would double dose the dog and see what happened, or better yet, not dose the dog at all and see what happened, just in case they really have lied.


My God, man! What are you thinking! This is a homeopathic remedy after all. No dose at all might put the dog in a coma.

[foxholeatheist]

The day my animals need special magic medicine is the day I put them to sleep.

Thanks for the laugh!

[Yuri Nalyssus]

Chamomile may or may not have sedative properties but at a dose of 1 drop in a bowl of water even the 6c remedy which could actually have some molecules in it is going to do nothing whatsoever. This remedy is ineffective, no question. If you are happy with that and with the idea of a CAVM metaphorical pat on the head and a "there there, never mind" then fine, 'cos that's what you've been given! The vet is hoping it's going to get better on its own, and if it's a seasonal dermatitis it may well do so.

If you want it treated properly you need to go back and say so - there are empirical treatments you could try such as evening primrose oil or a pheromone treatment called Feliway which relieves anxiety. Some people believe that pharmaceutical doses of Valerian compound (obtained from a veterinary supplier, not the human version) can have a sedative or anxiolytic effect although I'm not aware of the research behind that. In cases of feline skin disease there is often a significant stress component so these might be worth thinking about.

Diagnostics which should have been offered are skin scrapes and biopsies; swabs for bacterial culture are less useful tho I did hear from a dermatologist that resistant strains of skin bacteria have been identified recently so it could be that bacteriology is more useful than was believed previously.

The commonest cause of this type of thing is allergic dermatitis and although the treatments above can help such cats usually end up being treated with strategic doses of anti-inflammatories as clinical signs indicate. There are other potential causes such as parasites, hormone problems, liver problems and, rarely, some types of cancer so if the signs persist you need to get this dealt with properly.

Cheers,

Yuri

[Yuri Nalyssus]

The vitamin B-1 powder is more complex, because what it actually is, as far as the science is concerned, is a component of an amino acid that, when in deficiency can contribute to some problems that often display as behavioral problems.

I'm not clear what you are saying here, I wasn't aware that thiamine was a component of an amino acid - do you have a reference for this?

A cat can suffer malnutrition eating only dog food, because dog food doesn't have enough protein in it to sustain a cat's diet.

The missing component for cats fed dog diets is taurine, an amino acid which dogs can make for themselves but cats can't. Without it cats suffer problems with eyes and heart. :)

At 16 years old it's difficult to say, but vets usually tend to not want to take extreme life-preserving measures on pets of very advanced ages because the procedures are often invasive (and thus risky) and quite likely to lower the quality of life, which isn't a positive for the pet itself.

An unpalatable truth, but a truth nevertheless.

Cheers,

Yuris

[GreNME]

But why would they falsely include 6C and 20C on the label? I guess my question is really, "What makes you believe that this isn't a bottle of water?" I've had dogs and cats, and falling asleep within 15-30 minutes is pretty much par for the course.

Well, we could contact the manufacturer and see if they care to respond. However, having observed behavior of my own animals (not falling asleep, but calming down under duress) the results do not match their "homeo" claims of dilution and match actually having a concentration of the chemicals they mention.

If it were me, I would double dose the dog and see what happened, or better yet, not dose the dog at all and see what happened, just in case they really have lied.

I've done both to more than one dog of different constitutions and dispensations. So far the results are consistent, which is why I distrust their marketing it as a "homeo" product. That they keep a non-FDA-tested status makes their labeling suspect as far as being trustworthy.

As I've pointed out, though, since the effects don't differ in intensity from that of a person drinking chamomile tea, the expectations put forward by the marketing for the product are unrealistic. It's not going to "cure" anything, the effects aren't "immediate," and if "sleepy pet" is what you're going for feeding them a helping of turkey meat (with tryptophan in it) is going to yield better results (I know this also through testing).

[Mojo]

There is a skeptical vet site (http://skeptvet.com/) that has some good information on it.


And a skeptical website about veterinary homoeopathy in the UK: http://www.vetpath.co.uk/voodoo/

[GreNME]

Upon further review, it appears my earlier complaints about this company's misleading advertisements were way understated and not recognizing the outright dangerous lies this company was producing.

They have apparently in the past claimed USDA organic status and FDA approval, or so I've read in claims through searching, and those two things alone made me more than unhappy about their lying.

If that isn't bad enough, I then found that they sell a worm 'medicine' (http://www.homeopetpro.com/wrmClear.html) that by all rights appears to have zero, zip, zilch as far as anything known to actually treat worms in dogs. That right there crosses the line for for me, so from this point forward, regardless of what ingredients or concentrations they use, I not only strongly recommend against this company on principle, but also on the basis that they're dangerous to the health of pets.

Feed your cat or dog turkey instead. It has better results anyway.

[Dogdoctor]

Often owners are fooled by their pets reaction to medicine because they are only seeing their pets reaction to the owners reaction to giving medicine. The owner acts calm because they think the animal should be so the animal acts calm because the owner is.