How do you overcome such dangerous misconceptions about the current H1N1 vaccine?

[JohnTheRevelator]

I'm only 19 so naturally this will be a tough job for me. Basically, my whole family, cousins, and friends are refusing to take the current swine flu vaccine. They base this stand on the current myths going around. I mean, I was quite surprised to see even otherwise rational people believing in such bunk.

But this is a serious issue. The swine flu is not to be taken lightly. I mean, we've only entered the flu season in America and already the statistics are relatively high! My parents refuse to take anything the "gubbermint" will shove down their throats, and frankly, I don't care. The reason for this, however, is because the swine flu is really hurting the young and healthy (and they ain't young :P).

But I'm worried about my siblings (older and younger) who are refusing to do so out of choice or force (as in the case of my younger brother). I try to show them that these worries are completely unwarranted, but they're not having any of it. My university- educated cousin said that it potentially causes cancer.

I know I'm a terrible writer and my thoughts are a bit scrambled, but the basic point I want to get through is that this isn't just another one of those conspiracy theories that people will always believe in. I understand that skepticism is relatively rare in this world and I shouldn't really expect much to begin with. But this is dangerous! This is dealing with people's health. This is dealing with people's lives. This isn't about Bush being responsible for 9/11 or the Federal Reserve causing massive inflation. This is a relevant subject that affects real people and in the next few months, consequences may be dealt.

I don't know. I guess I don't know what to do... And I understand there will be some objections about this being in the Science subforum, but the reason I posted it here is because: a.) It deals with medicine. b.) This is a different kind of conspiracy theory thinking that can lead to real dangers (as opposed to believing that the government is hiding aliens from us).

Any suggestions?

[taiyo]

I've also had some cynical family members, and I know quite a bit about the vaccine, as I work in science/healthcare and I recently listened to some national experts explaining about how it's produced. I've found that spouting scientific facts and statistics has no effect at all and actually all those technical terms and stuff just make people more twitchy. In the end I've just said, "look, this flu vaccine is made in exactly the same way as every previous seasonal flu vaccine. It's developed by the same labs, manufactured by the same companies in the same places, has the same ingredients and is subject to the same testing and regulation".

I point out that every year there is a discussion about what strain will go in the seasonal flu vaccine and it is always tested and produced on a shorter time frame than other vaccines, because new flu strains appear more often than with other diseases. I say that this is just the same vaccine, for the same disease, just with another different strain in it. It's just another strain of flu, after all, regardless of the scary name. I also say that there is no 'live' virus in it (viruses aren't strictly 'live' anyway, what I mean is no actual functioning virus, just bits of virus), so it cannot give you flu, despite what people say after having their flu jabs each year.

That has convinced everyone so far. Most people have just been "reading some stuff on the internet" and deep down they know that you can't really trust what you read on random websites, as you can find websites to support any point of view you choose. People start out with a little worry, look it up on the net and find websites seeming to confirm their fears. But if they started out looking for reassurance, they would have found lots of reassuring websites.

I haven't got any nice reliable internet links for all that stuff above, so perhaps a flu expert wil come along and provide some!

[Safe-Keeper]

I've had a couple of sceptical friends and we've managed to convince them, but one of them claims she has doctors in her family that has told her that the vaccination hasn't been properly tested and that the patients receiving it are basically guinea pigs. She also claims a family member of hers is suffering long-term side-effects which will soon put him/her in a wheelchair. Which sounds incredibly dubious and further makes me wonder just what kind of "doctors" her family members are.

[Jeff Corey]

... I also say that there is no 'live' virus in it (viruses aren't strictly 'live' anyway, what I mean is no actual functioning virus, just bits of virus), so it cannot give you flu, despite what people say after having their flu jabs each year...
The nasal spray is "live attenuated" and that's one fact that I've heard people seize upon.
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/vis/downloads/vis-laiv-h1n1.pdf

[pgwenthold]

"If the H1N1 flu had shown up 3 months earlier, it would have just been included in the normal seasonal flu vaccine. That's the only difference - when it showed up"

[taiyo]

The nasal spray is "live attenuated" and that's one fact that I've heard people seize upon.

Aaah I see. I don't know about that one - haven't heard about it here in the UK. Why a nasal spray? Do they normally make flu nasal sprays?

"If the H1N1 flu had shown up 3 months earlier, it would have just been included in the normal seasonal flu vaccine. That's the only difference - when it showed up"
Exactly. It's another flu vaccine like any other, just released on a different schedule.

[lomiller]

"If the H1N1 flu had shown up 3 months earlier, it would have just been included in the normal seasonal flu vaccine. That's the only difference - when it showed up"



Tell them this, and if they don't listen move on. People who believe woo generally will not change their minds just because you tell them it's woo, so it unless they are trying to convert others it's really not worth the effort. Besides, it isn’t up to you to fix their reasoning.

[portlandatheist]

About half my family is complete woo. If you figure out a way to convince them to abandon conspiracy theories and look at the science, please let me know :)

[Jeff Corey]

About half my family is complete woo. If you figure out a way to convince them to abandon conspiracy theories and look at the science, please let me know :)

Department of of redundancy - print this out and give it to them.http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/vis/downloads/vis-laiv-h1n1.pdf
And this http://virus.stanford.edu/uda/ What happened then was because they had no vaccine and no clue. It killed millions and, just like the present swine flu, it hit young people, not the infants and alter cockers who normally succumb to these viruses.

[Roma]

I am extremely woo prone when it comes to government conspiracies and had decided months ago that I would never get the H1N1 vaccination and wouldn't get the H1N1 or seasonal flu shots for my teenager either. I should admit that listening to the radio program Coast to Coast every night when I go to bed may be melting some of my brain cells and influenced my decision.

However, many years ago I watched my older daughter cling to life when she was in ICU on a ventilator and the thought of watching my younger daughter suffer like that, no matter how tiny the chance, was enough to make me grab her by the hand last Monday and get her not only the seasonal but also the dreaded H1N1 vaccinations.

I just kept telling myself that people probably overreacted like this way back during the days of the Polio vaccinations too. "Oh hell people come completely unglued these days about so many silly things", I told myself as I walked into the clinic Monday, "just silly to believe that the idiot government bureacrats who can't even keep track of where they put their briefs when they diddle their assistants could possibly administrate such a complex conspiracy". Okay maybe they could, but so far all I've been watching on T.V. about the H1N1 clincs up here proves to me that they are bungling things up as usual.
For example Toronto had only two clinics open to give those vaccinations to 3 million people, Vancouver and Calgary weren't much better prepared, and Winnipeg can't get nurses out to give the shots even if they had them, which they don't, Canada is running out of H1N1 vaccinations because of "delivery problems". If the goverment really wanted to pull a conspiracy and kill off the weak don't you think they would be better prepared ?

I don't know, good luck with your relatives and get the shot if you can.
Oh yeah, that might do it, just tell them that the real conspiracy is that there's not enough H1N1 vaccination for the whole population and that is the conspiracy.
Alll this talk about how dangerous it is is just to scare people away so that the government employees and their families can get it all to themselves.
People always seem to want whatever it is that is in short supply,
if there's not enough then I want it, now.

[fls]

Any suggestions?

Wholeheartedly agree with their decision and "on a completely unrelated matter" suggest a Tontine type arrangement on a life-insurance policy.

Linda

[taiyo]

If the goverment really wanted to pull a conspiracy and kill off the weak don't you think they would be better prepared ?

:) I'm going to add that to my list of arguments!

[MattusMaximus]

Tell them that natural selection is a good thing, and then ask for dibs on their stuff ;)

[Skeptic Ginger]

I keep reminding people the actual infection has a more unpredictable and dangerous outcome potential than the vaccines.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Tell them that natural selection is a good thing, and then ask for dibs on their stuff ;):D

[Skeptic Ginger]

Then there is the fact the vaccine is in short supply. Tell someone they may not be able to get the H1N1 vaccine and the line for vaccine grows accordingly.

[pipelineaudio]

Ill take their dose!

You cant get it around here unless you got a clown car between your legs

Whatever supplies you guys dont want, seriously, we will take them!

[Without Rights]

They base this stand on the current myths going around.

What myths?

My university- educated cousin said that it potentially causes cancer.

That's not a myth, formaldehyde is a ingredient in a couple of the h1n1 vaccines. Beta-propiolactone is added to another. Both are known carcinogens.

This is a different kind of conspiracy theory thinking that can lead to real dangers.



I don't see the conspiracy.

I find your assumptions that discussing dangers of vaccines is dangerous to be utterly absurd. The worries are warranted. Mercury, aluminum, formaldehyde and other ingredients are toxic and they are in the flu vaccines.

What is the misconception?

[Dymanic]

What myths?
That the vaccine is experimental; untested; that it contains adjuvants (none does in the US anyway; part of the reason we're facing such serious shortages).

Mercury, aluminum, formaldehyde and other ingredients are toxic and they are in the flu vaccines."Toxic" is entirely dose-dependent, and the amounts contained in flu vaccines are vanishingly small by comparison with amounts regularly encountered from other sources.

What's most interesting is the numbers of people who express these concerns with the H1N1 vaccine but say they do intend to get the seasonal vaccine (apparently not realizing that there is absolutely no difference between the two in this regard).

[Miss_Kitt]

Without Rights: Issues of toxicity are related to dose and form of the toxin. For the most obvious example, water is toxic if consumed to excess. Table salt contains both sodium and chlorine--both known poisons!--but table salt is not poisonous, nor is normal saline (which contains salt). Mercury is not present in the flu vaccines; some multidose vials of injectable vaccine may use a mercury-containing preservative, but neither the nasal spray nor single-dose injections have that preservative. (Which has itself been tested numerous times and been determined to be safe.) There is nothing wrong with discussing dangers of vaccines -- but a discussion should deal with facts, not myths. If you have data, please present it.

Your implication that flu vaccines are carcinogenic is inflammatory and needs to be supported by a citation, preferrably several--which you don't have. (How do I know this? Because they are not true.) You are fear-mongering, either from ignorance or worse, from malice. Failure to vaccinate against a highly infectious disease is not only risking the health of the people who don't get the vaccine; it is enabling a chain of infection to spread, thus exposing more and more people to the illness. That's what causes epidemics.

It is true that there is a tiny risk of adverse reaction to any vaccine. Even so, the risk of adverse events and/or sequelae from the disease is far higher, and the consequences far worse.

There have now been more than 100 pediatric deaths in the US from H1N1 flu so far this year*, and unlike most flus, H1N1 is impacting older children and teens. (Most normal flus kill only children under the age of 2, and the elderly.) I would certainly advise the OP to get his vaccine, and to try to convince his parents to let the younger sibling(s) get their shot.

Good luck on trying to protect your siblings, OP, and please take care of yourself.

Miss_Kitt


* per CDC reports, http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/update.htm .

[The_Fire]

My parets, both of them with compromised immunesystems due to age and illness, also refuse the vaccine. While they are not overly exposed to infection sources (they don't socialise much), I'm concerned.

Their resistance seems to be based in the fact that some danish nurses employed at the Danish National Hospital in Copenhagen refuse to take it as well, citing the usage of mercury as a preservative in the version the danish governement have bought. Anyone know more about this?

I really don't want to visit either of my parents in the isolation ward.......

[Without Rights]

That the vaccine is experimental; untested; that it contains adjuvants (none does in the US anyway; part of the reason we're facing such serious shortages).

Untested? Novartis vaccine insert says this;

No reproduction system studies, no fetal harm studies,not tested for carcinogenic effects, not tested for mutagenesis, not tested for fertility impairment. Also part of that comes from the antigen being absent from the test batches.

Novartis is approved in America and contains squalene, an adjuvant.


"Toxic" is entirely dose-dependent, and the amounts contained in flu vaccines are vanishingly small by comparison with amounts regularly encountered from other sources.

Novartis and GSK, according to them, both contain 25 mcg of mercury. The FDA says mercury intake is significant at <0.05 mcg and is toxic at .4 mcg. That means these vaccines contain 50X the amount needed to be considered toxic.

[/quote]What's most interesting is the numbers of people who express these concerns with the H1N1 vaccine but say they do intend to get the seasonal vaccine (apparently not realizing that there is absolutely no difference between the two in this regard).[/quote]

Regular seasonal flu shots have never been proven safe by double blind placebo controlled trials and they contain toxins.

[Prometheus]

Point out the shortages, and how in some places women are putting pillows under their shirts and pretending to be pregnant so they can get it. Then suggest that the anti-vax people are really government shills, hired to keep demand lower so that the government can hoarde the vaccine for themselves.

[Safe-Keeper]

I keep reminding people the actual infection has a more unpredictable and dangerous outcome potential than the vaccines.Wont' necessarily work. A buddy of mine just claimed a family member of hers will soon be in a wheelchair thanks to the vaccine. I suspect she's confusing correlation with causation, but this doesn't stop her from chickening out on the vaccine herself.

That's not a myth, formaldehyde is a ingredient in a couple of the h1n1 vaccines. Beta-propiolactone is added to another. Both are known carcinogens.Wasn't all this nonsense exposed for the dangerous misconceptions they are in another thread? Is it not then incredibly irresponsible of you to post them again, here?

I don't see the conspiracy. You are raving about a conspiracy to give people an untested vaccination.
At the same time, 'you don't see the conspiracy'.

Okay. Well, you know what, if you don't even believe your own CT, I'm just gonna go ahead and assume you're trolling.

I find your assumptions that discussing dangers of vaccines is dangerous to be utterly absurd. The worries are warranted. Mercury, aluminum, formaldehyde and other ingredients are toxic and they are in the flu vaccines. Oh, wait, you're one of those "it's not a CT 'cause I believe it" types. Righty.

The FDA says mercury intake is significant at <0.05 mcg and is toxic at .4 mcg. That means these vaccines contain 50X the amount needed to be considered toxic.Far as I understand it, there are two possibilities here:

Either a. WR is full of **** and mercury does not cause autism, a condition known to be almost entirely in the realm of genetics.

Or b. mercury causes autism, in which case the entire US population would be autistic by now from the doses of mercury that enter their bodies every single day (every time you eat fish, more mercury enters into your body than if you get a flu shot).

[fls]

Untested? Novartis vaccine insert says this;

No reproduction system studies, no fetal harm studies,not tested for carcinogenic effects, not tested for mutagenesis, not tested for fertility impairment. Also part of that comes from the antigen being absent from the test batches.

How can you claim on the one hand that the vaccine is carcinogenic, but on the other hand claim that the vaccine has not been tested for carcinogenic effects?

Novartis and GSK, according to them, both contain 25 mcg of mercury. The FDA says mercury intake is significant at <0.05 mcg and is toxic at .4 mcg. That means these vaccines contain 50X the amount needed to be considered toxic.

If I understand which information you are referring to...

The intake thresholds refer to micrograms per kilogram (meaning kilogram of body weight). And they refer to levels for chronic daily exposure, not once a year exposures. Acute exposures require milligrams per kilogram to show toxic effects (i.e. doses on the order of a million times higher than what is received in thiomersal containing vaccines), which is why the lowest level for adverse effects for acute exposures is at 0.001 milligrams per kilogram - doses that are a thousand times higher than those representing chronic exposures and a thousand times higher than those received in thiomersal containing vaccines.

Linda

[fls]

Regular seasonal flu shots have never been proven safe by double blind placebo controlled trials

You have been misinformed. Seasonal flu shots have been subject to double-blind placebo controlled trials.

and they contain toxins.

Your body makes toxins. Your food contains toxins. The air you breathe contains toxins. The sheets you sleep on contain toxins. The kisses you shower on your baby contain toxins. Your statement is meaningless.

Linda

[Darth Rotor]

I find your assumptions that discussing dangers of vaccines is dangerous to be utterly absurd. The worries are warranted. Mercury, aluminum, formaldehyde and other ingredients are toxic and they are in the flu vaccines.

What is the misconception?
By golly, I'd best stop drinking beer from aluminum cans. Stick to bottles. Oh, look, Friday happy hour is $1.00 draft Dos Equis. I'll have a couple ... oh, wait, when I get beer on tap, the keg is nowadays made of aluminum. Back to bottles I go. :p

Do you serve your chicken little baked, fried, or roasted?

DR

[Safe-Keeper]

How can you claim on the one hand that the vaccine is carcinogenic, but on the other hand claim that the vaccine has not been tested for carcinogenic effects?:D

Your body makes toxins. Your food contains toxins. The air you breathe contains toxins. The sheets you sleep on contain toxins. The kisses you shower on your baby contain toxins.Also chemicals and bacteria.

[Dymanic]

Novartis is approved in America and contains squalene, an adjuvant.
It doesn't, actually (http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/vaccination/providers_qa.htm) -- and in the interest of separating truth from myth, it might be good if you could recall where you aquired that little gem (I'm guessing Mercola, but he appears to have recanted).

Novartis and GSK, according to them, both contain 25 mcg of mercury.So does a tuna sandwich. But it's only the multi-does vials; the single dose vials contain none, and the nasal spray contains none.

[Apathia]

And I just want to add that the consequences of kissing are much more health threatening than supposed toxins in vaccines.

"We have nothing to fear but fear itself."
Actually fear is a friend.
It's irrational fear that's driving the anti-vaccs bus over the embankment and into the gorge.

[pgwenthold]

And I just want to add that the consequences of kissing are much more health threatening than supposed toxins in vaccines.


"Kissing on the lips is highly unsanitary. It can lead to bacterial transfer." - The Professor, Gilligan's Island

[temporalillusion]

I just found out my liver makes squalene!! My liver is trying to kill me!

*punches liver*

[Beerina]

How do you overcome such dangerous misconceptions about the current H1N1 vaccine?


By having the media do its job and report the results next year: Percent of people who die without getting the vaccine, percent who got the vaccine and died of it anyway, and percent of people who got "problems" and got the vaccine, and those exact same problems vs. the population who didn't get the vaccine.


Tout it loudly. Shout it from the hilltops. Say, "Here's why you anti-vaccine people are idiots. And here's why the anti-vaccine people are murderers."


Of course, I'm making a silly assumption that the vaccine will be a net huge benefit, and will not have significant side effects.

Silly me. :rolleyes:

[JoeTheJuggler]

I have mixed feelings in observing that at least around here up to now the silly anti-vax misconceptions are moot.

There are way more people willing to get vaccinated than there are doses of the vaccine available. :):(

[portlandatheist]

Novartis and GSK, according to them, both contain 25 mcg of mercury. The FDA says mercury intake is significant at <0.05 mcg and is toxic at .4 mcg. That means these vaccines contain 50X the amount needed to be considered toxic.

This is a complete lie. Please read my other post (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=5249534#post5249534) on this topic.
The vaccine contains no mercury whatsoever. Absolutely none. Furthermore, Thimerosal never degrades or metabolizes into mercury in the human body. It does contain thimerosal, which is a mercury compound. The toxicity of thimerosal is totally different than mercury.

Last night at dinner, I consumed what would be considered unsafe levels of chlorine and sodium but in the form I consumed it, salt, it was perfectly safe.

If you are concerned about mercury: don't eat seafood and don't live downwind of a coal plant but I wouldn't worry so much about vaccines.

[portlandatheist]

I have mixed feelings in observing that at least around here up to now the silly anti-vax misconceptions are moot.

There are way more people willing to get vaccinated than there are doses of the vaccine available. :):(

I hear ya. I'm very anxious to get my H1N1 vaccine and so far there isn't enough to go around.

[taiyo]

Mercury, aluminum, formaldehyde and other ingredients are toxic and they are in the flu vaccines.
We had a lady admitted to our hospital recently who has developed brain damage after having a 30 minute seizure caused by drinking water. This stuff comes out of our taps and into our homes!!!! Stop this maddness !! Think of teh children!!1!!12!!!!

[Without Rights]

Wont' necessarily work. A buddy of mine just claimed a family member of hers will soon be in a wheelchair thanks to the vaccine. I suspect she's confusing correlation with causation, but this doesn't stop her from chickening out on the vaccine herself.

1976 swine flu vaccine, 500 paralysis victims. And since the CDC and FDA both don't know the ingredient responsible then there is no assurance that current vaccinations don't contain what caused GB syndrome.

Wasn't all this nonsense exposed for the dangerous misconceptions they are in another thread? Is it not then incredibly irresponsible of you to post them again, here?

irresponsible huh? A little dramatic don't you think. And in the other threads the responses were, "woo" and "conspiracy" and "crazy". Now we can add irresponsible to the list of ad hom.

You are raving about a conspiracy to give people an untested vaccination.
At the same time, 'you don't see the conspiracy'.

I never raved about a conspiracy, I am attempting to have a intelligent debate about ingredients being dangerous. I guess when you don't have anything intelligent to say you just stick with buzz words like "nonsense" and "misconceptions" and "conspiracy theory", that way you never have to actually debate against what I am saying. You get to skip the intellectual side of the argument and declare you are right because I am crazy.

Okay. Well, you know what, if you don't even believe your own CT, I'm just gonna go ahead and assume you're trolling.

No conspiracy, just harmful ingredients.

Oh, wait, you're one of those "it's not a CT 'cause I believe it" types. Righty.

Wait, you're one of those "mercury, formaldehyde and aluminum is safe coursing the blood stream because I believe them to be" types.

Far as I understand it, there are two possibilities here:

Either a. WR is full of **** and mercury does not cause autism, a condition known to be almost entirely in the realm of genetics.

Or b. mercury causes autism, in which case the entire US population would be autistic by now from the doses of mercury that enter their bodies every single day (every time you eat fish, more mercury enters into your body than if you get a flu shot).

I don't recall ever mentioning autism, but since you did, autism has risen by more than 50% in the past 10 years. Your claim that that is a result of genetics makes zero sense. People with autism don't procreate, natural selection would decrease the number of cases. I don't claim mercury as the culprit but since many many many parents have noticed that autism symptoms begin after vaccines are administered, it is not a stretch to say one of the many toxins in vaxx could be the problem.

[Kuko 4000]

I don't recall ever mentioning autism, but since you did, autism has risen by more than 50% in the past 10 years. Your claim that that is a result of genetics makes zero sense. People with autism don't procreate, natural selection would decrease the number of cases. I don't claim mercury as the culprit but since many many many parents have noticed that autism symptoms begin after vaccines are administered, it is not a stretch to say one of the many toxins in vaxx could be the problem.


Mercury in vaccines as a cause of autism and autism spectrum disorders (ASDs): A failed hypothesis

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=14


"Regarding the question of vaccines and autism, for ethical reasons we cannot do a double-blind, randomized, control trial of vaccines with and without thimerosal. However, we can do the next best thing, and, indeed, we now have several good studies since 1999 that do just that. Some of these studies are epidemiological; some are ecological. What allows us to use them to reject the hypothesis that mercury in vaccines is an etiological agent that is either associated with or causes autism is a very simple but powerful prediction that the hypothesis makes. Quite simply, if the hypothesis is true and thimerosal-containing vaccines (TCVs) cause autism (or are even merely a significant contributing factor), we would expect that the removal of thimerosal from vaccines would lead to a rapid decrease in autism incidence and prevalence within 2-5 years."


Let's see what happened then:

One More Nail in the Mercury-Autism Coffin

http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=159

"A new study, just published (Schechter R and JK Grether (2008). Continuing Increases in Autism Reported to California’s Developmental Services System. Arch. Gen. Psychiatry 65: 19-24.) looks at the incidents of reported autism in the California system, and shows no decreased in autism following the removal of thimerosal – not a blip. This is especially sweet as this is the same set of data that has been used for years by the other side to support their claims for a link"


Enjoy the articles :)

[portlandatheist]

it is not a stretch to say one of the many toxins in vaxx could be the problem.

It is quite a stretch considering there is no correlation between vaccines, or lack thereof, and these problems.

[Safe-Keeper]

1976 swine flu vaccine, 500 paralysis victims. And since the CDC and FDA both don't know the ingredient responsible then there is no assurance that current vaccinations don't contain what caused GB syndrome.Surely you're not saying that because it was allegedly dangerous then, then we can't trust it now?

irresponsible huh? A little dramatic don't you think.Not to those of us that actually care about getting our friends and family vaccinated, no. In fact, 'irresponsible' is rather mild for spreading fear about vaccinations during a pandemic.

I never raved about a conspiracy, I am attempting to have a intelligent debate about ingredients being dangerous.You had your arguments shot down in the other thread, yet you restate them here. Hardly intelligent discourse.

Got any evidence the US vaccination contains squalene?

Wait, you're one of those "mercury, formaldehyde and aluminum is safe coursing the blood stream because I believe them to be" types.
No. I'm one of those "I need evidence before I believe something" types.

I don't recall ever mentioning autism, but since you did, autism has risen by more than 50% in the past 10 years.Because more conditions have been added to the autism spectrum. Surely you know this.

Your claim that that is a result of genetics makes zero sense.I never made such a claim, but if I did, then that wouldn't make sense, no.

It is quite a stretch considering there is no correlation between vaccines, or lack thereof, and these problems. I believe we have also pointed out to WR that he is using the term 'toxin' in a dishonest way.

[Fat Bottom Gurl]

I just found out my liver makes squalene!! My liver is trying to kill me!

*punches liver*

I make mine filter Merlot....that'll show it!

[Skeptic Ginger]

500 paralysis victims from the '76 flu vaccine? That's BS. Where's your evidence on that?

Had the actual '76 swine flu become a pandemic, no one would have been concerned about the vaccine side effects. The real problem was the epidemiologists missed the boat predicting the outbreak of serious flu cases at Fort Dix were a prelude to a 1918 style pandemic.

Currently we have a pretty significant pandemic of 2009H1N1 influenza and a vaccine that has a long safety track record. Anyone fearing the vaccine more than the illness is ignoring the science and falling prey to the superstitious nonsense out there.

[taiyo]

A friend of mine has had the seasonal flu jab but is worried about the swine flu vaccine because she says it contains monosodium glutamate. She says she is allergic to MSG. How do I respond? Is MSG in the vaccine? If it is, what can I say, bearing in mind the ridiculousness of claiming an 'allergy' to MCG given that sodium and glutamate are in every cell of your body?

[taiyo]

OK I've gone and done my research and I've found that the USA nasal vaccine contains 0.188mg MSG per dose. There is none in the injected vaccines. I still think the claim of having a physical reaction to MSG is ludicrous.

[Dr. Imago]

Guillain-Barre.

~Dr. Imago

[Skeptic Ginger]

Guillain-Barre.

~Dr. ImagoI wasn't saying there wasn't an increase in GBS in 1976 following the flu vaccine campaign. I was questioning 500 cases of it attributed to influenza vaccine. That number is tossed around on the anti-vax sites on a regular basis. They have rounded 400 up to 500 and never mention that such rates attributed to flu vaccine in all other years has been statistically insignificant with the exception of 2 years where there may have been one extra case of GBS per million doses of vaccine.

GUILLAIN BARRÉ SYNDROME (GBS) (http://www.dhh.louisiana.gov/offices/miscdocs/docs-249/Manual/GuillainBarreManual.pdf)The 1976 swine influenza vaccine was associated with an increased frequency of GBS. Among persons who received the swine influenza vaccine in 1976, the rate of GBS was <10 cases/1 million persons vaccinated.Note, ~40 million doses of vaccine were administered. There may have been 400 cases of GBS attributed to that year's flu vaccine.

Evidence for a causal relation of GBS with subsequent vaccines prepared from other influenza viruses is unclear. Obtaining strong epidemiologic evidence for a possible limited increase in risk is difficult for such a rare condition as GBS, which has an annual incidence of 10 to 20 cases/1 million adults. During three of four influenza seasons studied during 1977 to1991, the overall relative risk estimates for GBS after influenza vaccination were slightly elevated but were not statistically significant in any of these studies. However, in a study of the 1992-93 and 1993-94 influenza seasons, the overall relative risk for GBS was 1.7 (95% CI = 1.0--2.8; p = 0.04) during the 6 weeks after vaccination, representing approximately 1 additional case of GBS/1 million persons vaccinated. The combined number of GBS cases peaked 2 weeks after vaccination. Thus, investigations to date indicate that there is no substantial increase in GBS associated with influenza vaccines (other than the swine influenza vaccine in 1976), and that, if influenza vaccine does pose a risk, it is probably slightly more than one additional case/1 million persons vaccinated. Cases of GBS after influenza infection have been reported, but no epidemiologic studies have documented such an association.

[Deetee]

Untested? Novartis vaccine insert says this;

No reproduction system studies, no fetal harm studies,not tested for carcinogenic effects, not tested for mutagenesis, not tested for fertility impairment. Also part of that comes from the antigen being absent from the test batches.

My understanding is all seasonalflu vaccines are tested for this.
My H1N1 Pandemrix insert says: "no hazard for humans based on conventional studies of safety pharmacology, acute and repeated dose toxicity, local tolerance, female fertility, embryo-fetal and postnatal toxicity (up to the end of the lactation period)".

Since there is (on the face of it, and taking your word for it) conflicting information, how will you decide what to believe?
You have a choice. Either you can continue insisting the vaccines are not tested (which makes you look rather foolish and confirms you have an unenquiring mind and are naturally biased to any information that does not fit in with your own dogma), or you can have a discourse with us about establishing the facts. Which will it be....?

[Jeff Corey]

Here's "idiot" Bill Maher being schooled on the vaccine by Frist http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB5DLf1Qt78&feature=PlayList&p=0DDDA8C6CB111482&index=0&playnext=1

[The Shrike]

Here's "idiot" Bill Maher being schooled on the vaccine by Frist

Thank you for the link. I watched that exchange live and thought Frist was brilliant - which surprised me greatly, btw.

[brantc]

Has Baxter Released A BioWeapon In Ukraine?

Health Freedom Alliance
November 5, 2009

Evidence appears to suggest that Baxter International may be responsible for a new deadly outbreak of viral pneumonia in Ukraine.

(http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aTo3LbhcA75I) In February of 2009, Bloomberg reported that Baxter “accidentally” sent vaccine material containing both live Avian bird flu and seasonal influenza to multiple laboratories worldwide. A laboratory decided to test the vaccine on its ferrets and the ferrets all unexpectedly died.

(http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aTo3LbhcA75I) http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aTo3LbhcA75I

It must be noted that Baxter has made a “mistake” like this before. (http://www.aegis.com/news/re/1996/RE960283.html) Blood products produced by Baxter once containd HIV. Thousands of haemophiliacs died due to this, and many went on to infect their spouses.

http://www.aegis.com/news/re/1996/RE960283.html

Later in the year, a bizarre story emerged on the internet. The news was full of reports on (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/14/man-suspected-of-making-t_n_259330.html) a man named Joseph Moshe who was arrested after a hours long standoff with the police because he had supposedly made threats against the White House. The man was able to withstand multiple rounds of tear gas…which left L.A. police officers amazed.

However, the internet community was very skeptical of the true reasons behind the man’s arrest. Comments on the Huffington Post website immediately began pouring in about an unreported side to this story, namely that Joseph Moshe was a Mossad Agent who specialized in biological warfare and who called into a radio show to warn people about a biological weapn that was being made by Baxter international that would be spread through vaccine and would cause a plague upon its release.

Although anyone can make a doomsday claim and we should never believe anyone (and it must be said that the Truth movement handled this well, the message was spread without being proclaimed as gospel) the amazing part about Moshe’s claim was the location where Moshe said the biological weapon was being produced.

Moshe claimed that Baxter’s laboratory in the Ukraine out of all places was creating this biological weapon. All of this came out in the beginning of August, which is more than 2 months before the situation that is currently unfolding. For Moshe to correctly name the country where a new epidemic would be unleashed, requires either inside information, or an incredible coincidence as anyone with a basic knowledge of statistics can confirm for himself.

Let us assume for a moment that every person on our planet has an equal chance of giving rise to a new lethal epidemic due to a virus that mutates as it spreads through his body. (http://www.ukrstat.gov.ua/operativ/operativ2009/ds/kn/kn_e/kn0609_e.html)


Ukraine has 46 million inhabitants. (http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/popclockworld.html) The current estimated global population is about 6.7 billion. This means that if a new epidemic were to arise, the chance of this epidemic starting in the Ukraine would be 0.69%. (http://zik.com.ua/en/news/2009/10/29/202374) However, it appears that this virus is a form of flu. This makes the odds of being right when guessing that a deadly flu is going to break out in the Ukraine even smaller. The reason for this is that back in early August the vast majority of influenza infections were found in different countries than the Ukraine. (http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/292540,ukraine-confirms-first-swine-flu-death-quarantine-ordered.html) In fact, on 30 Oktober, Earthtimes reported that Ukraine had officially reported only two cases of swine flu, and no deaths, until last Friday. This deadly epidemic appears to have arrived out of nowhere in the Ukraine.

(http://www.biomedexperts.com/Profile.bme/78637/Moshe_Bar-Joseph) Moshe’s biomed profile appears to confirm his position as a microbiologist. Furthermore, this page with Baxter’s contact information for its Ukraine office confirms that Baxter has a presence in the Ukraine.

(http://www.stevequayle.com/dead_scientists/UpdatedDeadScientists.html) It must also be noted that massive numbers of microbiologists have been dying bizarre deaths. This case of what appears to be a brave man who sacrificed it all to bring us this message may explain why so many microbiologists have been murdered. The fact that this man managed to predict an outbreak of highly lethal influenza in a place where we would least expect it, 2 months before it a actually occured, lends credence to his claim that Baxter International is responsible for the outbreak and shows that top microbiologists can pose a problem to the people responsible for this ongoing disaster.

This is a developing story, expect to see possible updates on David Rothscum Reports as more information on what is happening in Ukraine becomes available.

Update 1: For the purpose of keeping information from disappearing, I am going to mirror most information I can find on here.

Comments on the Huffington post website on an article about Moshe’s arrest documenting his claim that the Influenza virus in a vaccine manufactured by Baxter in Ukraine replicates RNA from the 1918 flu and is meant as a bioweapon:

(http://www.infowars.com/images/josephmosheukraine.JPG)

Update 2: (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jlasqqSlUIt56rnsbgDSaDdjU9kw) The Ukrainian government wants to impose travel restrictions on people across the nation to stop the virus from spreading.

Update 3: According to the Huffington post comments I cited above, Dr. Moshe claimed that the virus used replicated RNA of the 1918 Spanish flu. (http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/influenza%20phil%201918.htm) Symptoms of the 1919 Flu include victims being drenched in blood:

American were familiar with the flu; it sent you to bed, made you miserable for 3 or 4 days with fever, muscle aches, and congestion, then left you shaky for about a week. It made millions sick, yet killed only the oldest, youngest, and most feeble.

The 1918 influenza was not the flu Americans were familiar with. It was a horror that turned victims bluish-black then drowned them with their own body fluids. the death toll was highest in the ages 15 to 40, those in the peak of health. The victims would be fine one minute and the next incapacitated, fever-racked, and delirious. Temperatures rose to 104-106 degrees, skin turned blue, purple, or deep brown from lack of oxygen. Massive pneumonia attacked the lungs, filling them with fluid; blood gushed from the nose. Death was quick, savage, and terrifying.

(http://zik.com.ua/en/news/2009/10/29/202374) Compare this to reports that are coming out from Ukraine:

Five persons have died from the flue in Lviv, four men and one woman, says emergency hospital chief doctor Myron Borysevych.

Two of the dead patients were in the 22-35 age group, with 2 others over 60. He diagnosed the disease as viral pneumonia.

Viral tests can last from one to two weeks. They are complicated and not done in Lviv. The course of the disease was very quick. The symptoms included very high temperature and short-wind cough.

All the six dead young people had symptoms of severe hemmorhagic pneumonia. The disease starts slowly, with temperature rising to 37.2 37.3 degrees, slight cough and pain in joints. Nasal catarrh developed at the end of the second or third day. Autopsy revealed that the lungs were soaked with blood, the oblast chief specialist said.

[Eos of the Eons]

I just found out my liver makes squalene!! My liver is trying to kill me!

*punches liver*
Yes, your liver is evil, probably injecting it directly in the bloodstream to end up clogging pores in your face!! Squalene is in sebum. I've tried scrubbing that darn "toxic" antioxidant outta my face, but all I got was a red face. *sob*

[Eos of the Eons]

This is a more balanced view of the 1976 flu overview:

http://www.haverford.edu/biology/edwards/disease/viral_essays/warnervirus.htm

[brantc]

My understanding is all seasonalflu vaccines are tested for this.
My H1N1 Pandemrix insert says: "no hazard for humans based on conventional studies of safety pharmacology, acute and repeated dose toxicity, local tolerance, female fertility, embryo-fetal and postnatal toxicity (up to the end of the lactation period)".

Since there is (on the face of it, and taking your word for it) conflicting information, how will you decide what to believe?
You have a choice. Either you can continue insisting the vaccines are not tested (which makes you look rather foolish and confirms you have an unenquiring mind and are naturally biased to any information that does not fit in with your own dogma), or you can have a discourse with us about establishing the facts. Which will it be....?

It does not say this product was tested.
It says based on "conventional studies".
Thats why there is a problem, because they dont test and clean every single batch.
And we all know that there is no way to test every flu vaccine that comes out because they try to guess which flu is going to be prevalent this year.
Check the WHO website.

[Eos of the Eons]

Has Baxter Released A BioWeapon In Ukraine?

Health Freedom Alliance
November 5, 2009



Anything from "Health Freedom Alliance" is BS. Also, the swine flu pandemic started in Mexico. Also, people getting pneumonia with flu is the biggest killer during the flu season already, and always has been. Nothing new here.

[Eos of the Eons]

It does not say this product was tested.
It says based on "conventional studies".
Thats why there is a problem, because they dont test and clean every single batch.
And we all know that there is no way to test every flu vaccine that comes out because they try to guess which flu is going to be prevalent this year.
Check the WHO website.
We already know the pandemic flu is the dominant one this year, and it is 100% matched. You don't have to test every vaccine from every batch since every vaccine is made the same way as the tested bunch. It also took so long to get the vaccine out because they were testing it, or we would have been getting injections long ago. It's also the same vaccine they always use, just a different strain. It's very tested.

[Jeff Corey]

It does not say this product was tested.
It says based on "conventional studies".
Thats why there is a problem, because they dont test and clean every single batch.
And we all know that there is no way to test every flu vaccine that comes out because they try to guess which flu is going to be prevalent this year.
Check the WHO website.

Here ya go. http://www.who.int/csr/disease/influenza/vaccinerecommendations/en/

[Deetee]

It does not say this product was tested.
It says based on "conventional studies".
Thats why there is a problem, because they dont test and clean every single batch.
And we all know that there is no way to test every flu vaccine that comes out because they try to guess which flu is going to be prevalent this year.
Check the WHO website.
Since last week I have been refusing to get into my car. You see, it has airbags fitted, but since they do not check each and every airbag in a test crash, how do I know the one I have got will actually work?
I've also stopped eating biscuits. You see, I gather every single batch has not been tested to prove it doesn't cause some rare medical disease like BongoBongo syndrome, even though we know the quality controllers have checked other samples to make sure of this.

[whatthebutlersaw]

I think I will refer this to My Mum again. (I frequently use my mum as an example, because she is clever though not very educated. She has a tendency to believe woo, but will listen to reason if not talked down to. So when I need to sort something out, I always think: how would I explain this to mum?)

So:

"Imagine that you are making a cake for my lactose intolerant niece. After some experimentation, you get at cake together that is tasty, while containing no dairy products. To be safe, you and your friend Diana, who is also lactose intolerant, agree that she will try the new recipe. She is grown up, and aware that she may get a tummy ache if you messed something up. Diana tries the cake and has no problems, so Isabelle gets to try the cake as well. She has no problems with the cake, so the recipe is then used for all celebrations so Isabelle can have cake too. You follow the recipe religiously, so Diana doesn't need to be guinea pig for every cake. - But she may volunteer :-)

After six months of cake Isabelle gets a little tired of orange flavour frosting, so you decide to have a go at vanilla instead. Everything else is the same, you have just added X-brand vanilla flavour, which in itself is safe for lactose intolerants.

Do you think that you need to have Diana taste the vanilla cake?"

Mum: "No, because the cake would be the same, only with vanilla in the frosting. And you said the vanilla was safe."

Me:"I knew I could count on you to get it, mum."

Oh, and swapping threads and starting over is either incredibly misguided, or trollish. Of course there are going to be people in this thread who remember someone getting pwned (whether they understood it or not) in the other one.

[flim flam]

Without rights are you smoking crack?. "people with autism don't procreate". seriously i realise that anti vax conspiracy theorist types see people with autism as sub human and unworthy of consideration but this comment has to be up there with the classic "autism worse than cancer" crap. Just f.y.i people with autism go to school , work, contribute to society, listen to music, play computer games have blogs-you might want to check them out sometime, and guess what?....they also form relationships, make love and have children. They are not strange sterile monsters. Just humans trying to get by in a world filled with idiots like you.

[BenBurch]

We have an autistic person who posts here on this board. I think he is quite capable of reproducing.

[Eos of the Eons]

My brother has a form of autism (he was never vaxxed either, and neither was I). He has two kids. They are adorable and show no signs of autism themselves.

[Dr. Imago]

Note, ~40 million doses of vaccine were administered. There may have been 400 cases of GBS attributed to that year's flu vaccine.

How many cardiovascular events were directly attributed to COX-2 inhibitors, namely Vioxx (rofecoxib), before it was pulled from the market and the lawyers started going after the manufacturer?

I'm just playing devil's advocate here. Certainly there is an acceptable risk-to-benefit ratio in any intervention, a notion I wrestle with on a daily professional basis.

In the meantime, I will say this: we've (nearly) completely done away with natural selection in the human animal. So be it. You just gotta be prepared to pay for that extravagance, however that cost is manifested.

~Dr. Imago

[Eos of the Eons]

Well that is just it. You have a much higher chance of getting GBS from the actual flu, or getting surgery, etc. The thing is, you have to have that crazy thing that makes you susceptible to it. I'm allergic to milk products, and can get exposed to it in crazy foods that don't look like they will have any milk product in it, but does that mean we should ban all milk products because of people like me, even though it is a great source of nutrition? No. And that is why vaccines aren't banned. There is far more benefit to us as a whole, and even to people who might get GBS, since far far less people get GBS when vaccinated compared to when they get sick.

I live in a city of about 100 000 people. One person might get GBS if they get sick, and probably NONE if they ALL got vaccinated. In a city of a million 10 people might get GBS if they all got sick, but only one if they ALL got vaccinated. I would think 1 person with GBS is preferable to 10.

An unacceptable risk is if more people got GBS when vaccinated compared to when they get sick, but this doesn't happen. Even in 1976 the rate of GBS of vaccinated people was actually the same in people who get sick (one out of a hundred thousand). So, either way you can get sick or not, but your risk of GBS did not go up.

I just think it is stupid to go with the higher risk of GBS by getting sick. Also, you could die from the flu, or get stuck on a ventilator, or miss work. Any one of us with some sense of risk assessment could weigh these risks logically, but for some reason getting GBS while having the flu is preferable to the less chance of getting GBS and foregoing the flu in some people's mindsets.

With Vioxx, they just banned it in favor of interventions they deemed less risky. Also, getting sued doesn't make the product very attractive to the people trying to provide it. Why bother?

With the other scenario, you just have vaccines or you have the diseases. You only have two choices.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Has Baxter Released A BioWeapon In Ukraine?[snipped].Yawn .... This is old news. Start a new thread or find an old one to resurrect.

[Skeptic Ginger]

How many cardiovascular events were directly attributed to COX-2 inhibitors, namely Vioxx (rofecoxib), before it was pulled from the market and the lawyers started going after the manufacturer?

I'm just playing devil's advocate here. Certainly there is an acceptable risk-to-benefit ratio in any intervention, a notion I wrestle with on a daily professional basis.

In the meantime, I will say this: we've (nearly) completely done away with natural selection in the human animal. So be it. You just gotta be prepared to pay for that extravagance, however that cost is manifested.

~Dr. ImagoI was just keeping to the skeptical philosophy of being objective and honest. I give vaccines by the thousands, or did you forget?

So far this year I've given over 1,000 seasonal flu vaccinations and over 500 H1N1 live vaccine doses and 10 killed vaccine H1N1 doses. I got an H1N1 killed vaccine since I'm over 50 and I gave my son both the seasonal vaccine and a dose of the H1N1 FluMist. I'll get my own seasonal flu vaccine before the end of the month.

And I was relieved to get the H1N1 vaccine and to be able to give my son a dose before either of us contracted the infection.

[Dr. Imago]

And I was relieved to get the H1N1 vaccine and to be able to give my son a dose before either of us contracted the infection.

And, I'm just saying that I was definitively exposed at least once, likely exposed another two separate times, took Tamiflu, probably had a mild form of the illness, and am equally grateful and relieved that I don't need the vaccine, not that I wouldn't advocate it for high-risk individuals.

~Dr. Imago