Astro Teacher - astrology test

[Hokulele]

Split from: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=156374

It is nearly impossible to "test" Astrology in this way. Natal astrology especially falls into the difficulty of validating astrology in this manner. I always tell my students of astrology that is it very hard to "prove" anything of Astrology within Natal Astrology because it belongs to the advanced Judicial Branch which is only for those who have achieved superior knowledge and understanding of celestial forces after first practicing Natural Astrology.

That branch of Natural Astrology includes areas that are better suited to "test" since it includes Weather Forecasting, and Medical Astrology, which is much easier to test scientifically than is Judicial Astrology. This is because the analog data from cases in these fields can be easily used to prove the validity of astrological principles as they relate to the Physical World, and not the metaphysical.

One of the problems some skeptics have in understanding this fact is that they are under the false impression that "astrology" is reduced only by Natal Astrology, which it surely is not. The physical, or material world is easier to measure.

The metaphysical world of natal astrology is very hard to measure since there exists no one method for measurement of the happenings in a person's life applying conventional tools of measurement. Do attempt this is folly since it requires a system of conventional measurement that does not exist.

It is very difficult to prove anything in the natal area of astrology as it is a very complex metaphysical field and can only be measured by those who have had many years of astrological study, and who have first mastered the Natural Astrological Branch.


Why do you assume I have little experience with astrology?

The astrologer in the OP came in with a particular claim, and this protocol is being designed with that claim in mind. In other words, this is a test of the astrologer, not astrology. If a metaphysical claim can be made by natal astrology, it would be possible to design a test of that claim.

What do you believe can be determined using natal astrology?

Actually, sorry Kuko, this would be better off in a thread of its own.

[Astro Teacher]

Why do you assume I have little experience with astrology?

The astrologer in the OP came in with a particular claim, and this protocol is being designed with that claim in mind. In other words, this is a test of the astrologer, not astrology. If a metaphysical claim can be made by natal astrology, it would be possible to design a test of that claim.

What do you believe can be determined using natal astrology?

Actually, sorry Kuko, this would be better off in a thread of its own.

There is no way to "test" natal astrology in this manner, much less any other that is known at this time. It is impossible. Also, there are those who would use such a so-called" test of this protocol to then say that whichever astrologer passed or failed this so-called "test" is a statement on Astrology itself. It's been done before.

Astrology has never been disproven. What we find today are little more than opinions built on preconceived biases by those with no knowledge of the subject itself.

Natal astrology is advanced, and is only dealt with by advanced astrologers. This area of what is the judicial branch is very complex and not for the weak-minded, or for those who lack many years of practice, knowledge and experience. To even presume to test it by any kind of conventional protocol will end in failure.

Rather, test Natural Astrology, which deals with physical manifestations that can be measured for accuracy and effect in the Material world.

[Hokulele]

What do you believe can be determined using natal astrology?

[Astro Teacher]

What do you believe can be determined using natal astrology?

Many things can be determined. I've helped hundreds of people understand how to find a personal rhythm in life by reading their personal nativities, and helping them to understand their own transits in a useful way.

In natal astrology, this is where personal belief helps a person to come to terms with making their own way through life. This is not merely an "intellectual" way of living life, but a fuller, spiritual way in understanding how to work one's way through their own personal transits.

Culture, environment, upbringing, etc. play important roles as well, and this can be seen in the nativities of individuals by an advanced astrologer. Yet, the most important thing is that whatever is provided by the astrologer must be able to be used by the person beyond a mere "personality report," which, again, is worthless, even for testing.

[Hokulele]

Please clarify, are you saying that natal astrology determines which choices people should make regarding personal decisions?

[Astro Teacher]

Please clarify, are you saying that natal astrology determines which choices people should make regarding personal decisions?

No, their own free will chooses. But, each person has a individual constitution, that inclines them towards certain kinds of personal decisions. I've seen this many times.

The whole purpose of the astrologer is to guide the person back to their own personal "season," so to speak. The troubles that often come to people do come about by making decisions in the wrong season, or, with the wrong weather. This happens very frequently and what we know as "history" is full of events that have come about because of ignorance of times and seasons.

For instance, most people call October the 10th month, yet, October is the eighth month, not the 10th. "Oct" means the number 8. The true new year begins with the ingress of the Sun into tropical Aries, which occurs in mid-March. People are living out of time, in the wrong understanding of time, and this causes problems in the world.

[Hokulele]

No, their own free will chooses. But, each person has a individual constitution, that inclines them towards certain kinds of personal decisions. I've seen this many times.

The whole purpose of the astrologer is to guide the person back to their own personal "season," so to speak. The troubles that often come to people do come about by making decisions in the wrong season, or, with the wrong weather. This happens very frequently and what we know as "history" is full of events that have come about because of ignorance of times and seasons.

For instance, most people call October the 10th month, yet, October is the eighth month, not the 10th. "Oct" means the number 8. The true new year begins with the ingress of the Sun into tropical Aries, which occurs in mid-March. People are living out of time, in the wrong understanding of time, and this causes problems in the world.


As you have described it here, this would be a very easy claim to test. Would you care to participate in such a test? If so, I will request a moderated thread (to avoid derails, such as this one) and put up a protocol.

[Astro Teacher]

As you have described it here, this would be a very easy claim to test. Would you care to participate in such a test? If so, I will request a moderated thread (to avoid derails, such as this one) and put up a protocol.

I cannot see how you would design a protocol to prove natal astrology. I've never seen one developed yet as a test though many have tried. This area would require experienced astrologers to rate such tests, and even then, those astrologers would have to be advanced enough not only to construct such a test of natal astrology, but also to come to a point of assessment of any results in this area.

This natal area is very much metaphysical, and is so difficult to read, much less prove through tests, that I cannot see how it would be done to be able to come to any kind of determination that would be seen as valid in this time and era.

[Hokulele]

I cannot see how you would design a protocol to prove natal astrology. I've never seen one developed yet as a test though many have tried. This area would require experienced astrologers to rate such tests, and even then, those astrologers would have to be advanced enough not only to construct such a test of natal astrology, but also to come to a point of assessments of any results in this area.


Would you care to participate in such a test?

[Astro Teacher]

Would you care to participate in such a test?

I don't have a problem with it, however, I would like to see how the protocols would be arranged since I am skeptical that it can even be done in natal astrology.

[Hokulele]

I don't have a problem with it, however, I would like to see how the protocols would be arranged since I am skeptical that it can even be done in natal astrology.


Thank you.

I will request a moderated thread and put out a call for volunteers. In that thread I will post a proposed protocol that you, and any one else, may comment on. I am requesting moderation for that thread in order to keep off-topic discussions to a minimum as well as in-thread sniping. I will also be requesting that posts from the various volunteers be kept out of the thread, to avoid leaking of information.

If a protocol cannot be agreed upon, or if a test is completed, I will request that the moderated status be removed, so the thread will be open for any and all commentary.

Is this acceptable?

[Astro Teacher]

Thank you.

I will request a moderated thread and put out a call for volunteers. In that thread I will post a proposed protocol that you, and any one else, may comment on. I am requesting moderation for that thread in order to keep off-topic discussions to a minimum as well as in-thread sniping. I will also be requesting that posts from the various volunteers be kept out of the thread, to avoid leaking of information.

If a protocol cannot be agreed upon, or if a test is completed, I will request that the moderated status be removed, so the thread will be open for any and all commentary.

Is this acceptable?

Sure it is. The protocol will be difficult, so you will have to ask me if the examples used are even worth testing considering my views on natal astrology and testing in the metaphysical area.

[Hokulele]

Here is a first draft of a protocol for testing the type of astrology as practed by Astro Teacher. Based on the posts linked below, it appears that he/she is using a form of electoral astrology to predict auspicious times and dates for particular events and to help a person choose which decisions would be most in harmony with their personal chart.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=5267529#post5267529
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=5267576#post5267576

The protocol is developed to test whether or not a noticeable harmony exists beyond basic coincidence or chance.

1. A pool of volunteers will each submit the necessary natal data (birth time, location, etc.) for Astro Teacher.

2. In addition, each person will submit a list of personal decisions they have faced sometime in the past, along with the date and location of each, what choice they made, and whether the outcome was beneficial or not in their opinion. Please note, a decision with a "bad" immediate outcome can have long-term "good" effects. For example, you may choose to apply for a job for which you are rejected (bad), but make a professional contact that leads to an even better job (good). I am thinking that having 4 or 5 decisions per volunteer would make later steps in the test easier.

3. I will collect the list of volunteer names and the decisions for each via Personal Message only and send the list to an anonymous individual for randomization (assigning random letters to the names and numbers to each decision). The name of that individual will kept secret from both myself and Astro Teacher by forwarding the list to one of the moderators and having them choose the person to do the randomization.

3. Astro Teacher will then choose and post the combinations regarding which volunteers he/she wishes to chart and which decisions will be analyzed. For example, Astro Teacher would post publically a list such as the following:

A 2, 4
D 3
J 1
L 1
M 1, 2, 5

Please note, I would appreciate if someone with better statistical skills that mine could figure out what would be a reasonable number of people/decisions to test in order to generate a credible pass/fail rating.

4. Astro Teacher will then use the information provided to determine what decision would have the greatest positive outcome for the volunteer and/or what decision would have the greatest negative outcome. For example, if the decision were whether or not someone should move to Chicago to be with a significant other, Astro Teacher's recommendations could look like one the following:

Moving at all would be disastrous. Don't do it.
Move, but only in the Aug. 15-20, 2004 timeframe. Any later would not end well.
Move, but only after Sept. 15, 2004.
Have the significant other move to your city.

5. One or two other volunteers would also create lists of recommendations for those decisions.

6. All sets of recommendations will be collected and assigned code names.

7. All sets of recommendations will be posted publically, and the names of the volunteers whose charts were selected will be announced by the anonymous source.

8. Those volunteers would then review the sets of recommendations and indicate which would have been the most relevant to their situation, and which most matches what really happened.

9. General discussion and mayhem ensues.

Please note, it is highly unlikely that a test of this size will generate numbers statistically significant enough to be considered definitive (unlike the major tests sourced by Neally in another thread), but it may reveal whether someone who is highly experienced in astrology can provide guidance more practical or reliable than someone who is simply guessing.

Also note that this is a first draft and may undergo substantial revision before any test begins. With that in mind, I have put out a call for volunteers, but please do not send any birth/decision data until everyone agrees as to what is required.

And just to reiterate:

Anyone who wishes to volunteer for this test, please contact me via PM only and only provide the requested data. Anyone who posts their participation publically will be excluded from the test.

[Professor Yaffle]

Could Astro Teacher specify how accurate the birth times have to be as Hok will likely get a lot of PMs asking this, going by previous tests. Not everyone has an exact time of birth.

[Hokulele]

Could Astro Teacher specify how accurate the birth times have to be as Hok will likely get a lot of PMs asking this, going by previous tests. Not everyone has an exact time of birth.


This was just a first stab at a procedure, but as you note, the devil is in the details. If Astro Teacher agrees that this could be the framework for a reasonable test, the next step would be to determine what information he/she needs and if there is any restriction or preference on the type of life-decisions to be included.

My first thought as to the latter would be things such as:

- Job applications/offers/acceptance
- Educational choices (secondary school, graduate school)
- Personal improvements (diets, exercise plans, warddrobe makeovers)
- Non-emergency medical procedures (including professional counseling)
- Living arrangements (roommates, spouses, girl/boyfriends)
- Children
- Pets

and so on.

[Astro Teacher]

Could Astro Teacher specify how accurate the birth times have to be as Hok will likely get a lot of PMs asking this, going by previous tests. Not everyone has an exact time of birth.

Thanks for asking Professor. I know. If a birth time is known, then add it, if not, just the date of birth will do, and the geographic location. Also include your current geographic location if different than the location of birth. People often move away from where they were born and live in different cities. That changes the angles in their charts across time zones.

Oh, and one more thing: I have to enter in longitude and latitude, so it would really save me a lot of time if those who send their birth dates also send the name of the city/country they were born in, and the longitude/latitude as well. I will check this myself, but it will save time. Add the longitude/latitude of places where you currently are located as well since I may have to progress the natal chart to the current location. With time changes, also come changes in angles.

If anyone tries any funny stuff like sending me bogus dates, playing stupid games, I will immediately trash it from the list, put you on ignore forever, and not look back. I'm busy enough as it is, so if you are real, I will be real. If you are friendly, I will be friendly. If you will be mean, I will be Darth Vader in a bad mood. Don't go there.

Some DO NOTS -

Do not ask me when you will die. I don't do those morbid requests. Never did. Never will.

Do not send me false data. If you are so clueless as to play games then you should not have even bothered. I have ways of determining if the birth data is true, and I will ask you a few questions that you will not be able to anticipate beforehand to check if you are one of those "waste his time" kinds of people. Don't go there and you will get better results.

Edited to remove portions not suitable for the moderated thread

Sincerely,

A.T.

[Professor Yaffle]

Do not send me false data. If you are so clueless as to play games then you should not have even bothered. I have ways of determining if the birth data is true, and I will ask you a few questions that you will not be able to anticipate beforehand to check if you are one of those "waste his time" kinds of people. Don't go there and you will get better results.


Actually, if you can tell a false from a real birthdate, we have quite an easy test right there. Could even be blind in that the participant would not know whether their real birthdate, or a slightly altered one has been sent.

[Hokulele]

One other thing I should mention, volunteers do not have to be members of the forum. If anyone has partners/siblings/others that can be counted on to participate honestly, and you can reliably transmit information between them and this thread (copy/paste of e-mails, for example) I have no problem in including their data in the test. The more options, the merrier. I would prefer to have a larger pool of options from which Astro Teacher can randomly choose origin data for casting charts. Also, if we have to disqualify any volunteers, having more options helps.

[Hokulele]

Actually, if you can tell a false from a real birthdate, we have quite an easy test right there. Could even be blind in that the participant would not know whether their real birthdate, or a slightly altered one has been sent.


Ooh, I like this one even better!

[AvalonXQ]

I agree. What information is required to tell whether received birth data is true or false?

[AvalonXQ]

Thanks for asking Professor. I know. If a birth time is known, then add it, if not, just the date of birth will do, and the geographic location. Also include your current geographic location if different than the location of birth. People often move away from where they were born and live in different cities. That changes the angles in their charts across time zones.
If someone has moved around a lot (as most people that I know have), do you need a timeline with dates and locations? Will that screw up the chart otherwise?

Do not ask me when you will die. I don't do those morbid requests. Never did. Never will.
I thought we were dealing only with past events. Since I assume none of us agreeing to participate are dead, I don't expect this will be a problem.

[Astro Teacher]

If someone has moved around a lot (as most people that I know have), do you need a timeline with dates and locations? Will that screw up the chart otherwise?


I thought we were dealing only with past events. Since I assume none of us agreeing to participate are dead, I don't expect this will be a problem.

Astrology does not deal only with past events, but present ones, and future ones. Thinking only in terms of the past is quite limited. Most people use about 10-percent or less of their total brain function. Let's try to utilize the remaining 90% shall we?

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Cool!

So this test has been reduced to:


Provide location of birth.
Provide current location.

Then Astro will tell me my birth date.

I'm on. But I'll PM my brother's. Is that OK?

:boggled:n

[Hokulele]

Astro Teacher, would you be willing to test whether or not you can recognize falsified birth data?

[Professor Yaffle]

From another thread - I thought it was another good idea that would be easy to test:

There surely can't be a lack of examples of already-dead, non-famous people from all over the world whose time and place of birth and time of death are recorded. If true astrology can predict the moment of death from the place and moment of birth, then that would provide an easy test for the million dollar challenge:


A selection of dead people's histories is presented to one true astrologer who uses their astrological skills to reject any whose information appears to have been wrongly recorded.
A list of times and places of birth thus verified is drawn up.
The list is presented to a different true astrologer, who calculates each person's time of death.

Match the dates for an easy peasy $1,000,000 win. Right?

[Professor Yaffle]

And another idea:

I have a question.

I read your description of having caught a thief in the other thread- you could tell what this person was up to from their chart, and how they related to the client.

Now, if you can figure out how two people are interrelated (by theft, in this case) from their birth data, would you be able to tell me, given my birth information and that of three of the women I dated, which one married me? I could also give you the birth place and time of my children if that helps.

Possibly. I've done it before.

Well, I'll have to leave it for someone else, since I've mentioned my wife's birthplace on this forum before.

But if I could get real birthdates and places from a friend (or an anonymous member of this forum via PM), shall we try?

Or, a slightly different test-

I could provide the dates and birthplace of my mother and her siblings.
I could provide the dates and bithplace of my father and his siblings.

Given my birthdate and place, could you pick out which were my parents?

[Hokulele]

I PM'd Astro Teacher with an invitation to stop by and examine some of the suggestions for tests and protocols. Thanks Professor Yaffle for collating various claims and suggestions here.

Astro Teacher, would you be willing to test whether or not falsified birth data can be detected? It does seem to be the most straightforward in terms of data required from the participants, and determining whether or not a meaningful result has been obtained. If you need to interview the various participants, that can be done here so we can see your questions as well as their responses in order to confirm and verify the information exchanged.

[Madalch]

Just for the record, "Hop-Frog" was my user name just for Hallowe'en. It was my idea of a Hallowe'en costume.

[Hokulele]

I did receive a PM from Astro Teacher stating that he has been busy with work. Here is a bump in case he would like to review the last few suggestions regarding testing protocols.

[Astro Teacher]

Astro Teacher, would you be willing to test whether or not you can recognize falsified birth data?

This would not be a test of whether astrology is accurate or not in forecasting. It would only be a test of if I can sift through false data and identify it, which really is a waste of my time considering how busy I am.

I'd rather read the transits of real people from real data if you don't mind.

[Madalch]

This would not be a test of whether astrology is accurate or not in forecasting. It would only be a test of if I can sift through false data and identify it, which really is a waste of my time considering how busy I am.

I'd rather read the transits of real people from real data if you don't mind.
I'm making an offer of real data. Interested?

[Hokulele]

I'd rather read the transits of real people from real data if you don't mind.


All righty then, would you please read post 13 and give me your feedback on this protocol draft.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

This would not be a test of whether astrology is accurate or not in forecasting. It would only be a test of if I can sift through false data and identify it, which really is a waste of my time considering how busy I am.

I'd rather read the transits of real people from real data if you don't mind.

OK. I'll make it real easy for you. My birthdate is July 20, 1942. Am I lying or not?

[Madalch]

This would not be a test of whether astrology is accurate or not in forecasting. It would only be a test of if I can sift through false data and identify it, which really is a waste of my time considering how busy I am.

I'd rather read the transits of real people from real data if you don't mind.

It wouldn't be a test of whether you can sift through false data- surely each birthdate that's given would apply to some real person. Surely very few of these people would end up in the same situation.

At any rate, please comment on my "parents' siblings" idea. They are real people with real lives, and I'd like to see if you can determine anything about them.

[Third Eye Open]

This test will never happen.

[Bronwyn Elko]

Just a thought:

Drawing data from a volunteer's mother and her siblings and/or father and his siblings will taint the test, i.e., make it unfairly difficult to discern the true identity of the mother and/or father. Siblings and their children share the same gene pool: Mom and Pop's sisters and brothers may very well share similar astro-points. Many families share the same signs and points like the Sun, Moon, ASC, Moon's nodes, etc., and planetary "complexes", i.e., clusters of aspects like T-squares, kites, trines and so on, handing down these 'signatures' through generations. These and other astro-connections are used to identify mother/child and father/child bonds.

For example: I have Taurus on the MC (the midheaven, the angle of the chart most often associated with the mother; the IC/MC is considered a 'parental axis'). In any case, the point is that my MC (mother-angle) is in Taurus and my mother had the Moon in Taurus. But, my maternal aunt was also a Sun sign Taurus. So, in my opinion, it would be easy for AT to mistake a maternal sibling for the volunteer's mother.

I would suggest using four birth data/charts drawn from four different months of the year. One data/chart is actually the volunteer's mother. Three others you could make up -- but these made up charts should not be drawn from the same astro-birth month (by astro-month I mean when the suns enters and leaves a particular sign) as the volunteer's mother. Same with the father. As well, the false charts should have birth times different than the parents' birth times. At least three hours difference. That's what I'd want.

[Foster Zygote]

This would not be a test of whether astrology is accurate or not in forecasting. It would only be a test of if I can sift through false data and identify it, which really is a waste of my time considering how busy I am.

I'd rather read the transits of real people from real data if you don't mind.

How would providing evidence that astrology can be employed to accurately discern anything be a waste of your time?

[Garrette]

Just a thought:

Drawing data from a volunteer's mother and her siblings and/or father and his siblings will taint the test, i.e., make it unfairly difficult to discern the true identity of the mother and/or father. Siblings and their children share the same gene pool: Mom and Pop's sisters and brothers may very well share similar astro-points. Many families share the same signs and points like the Sun, Moon, ASC, Moon's nodes, etc., and planetary "complexes", i.e., clusters of aspects like T-squares, kites, trines and so on, handing down these 'signatures' through generations. These and other astro-connections are used to identify mother/child and father/child bonds.

For example: I have Taurus on the MC (the midheaven, the angle of the chart most often associated with the mother; the IC/MC is considered a 'parental axis'). In any case, the point is that my MC (mother-angle) is in Taurus and my mother had the Moon in Taurus. But, my maternal aunt was also a Sun sign Taurus. So, in my opinion, it would be easy for AT to mistake a maternal sibling for the volunteer's mother. So an astrologer cannot foretell death, and the reason is that DNA is too similar?

Even if one sibling were to die from a childhood illness, another were to die in Hurricane Katrina as middle-aged adult, and another were to die peacefully in his sleep in his 90s?

[Modified]

This would not be a test of whether astrology is accurate or not in forecasting. It would only be a test of if I can sift through false data and identify it, which really is a waste of my time considering how busy I am.

I'd rather read the transits of real people from real data if you don't mind.

I think you are missing the point. It would be real data from real people, only the birth dates would be changed.

[SumDood]

This would not be a test of whether astrology is accurate or not in forecasting. It would only be a test of if I can sift through false data and identify it, which really is a waste of my time considering how busy I am.

I'd rather read the transits of real people from real data if you don't mind.

It would not provide any evidence of the accuracy of forecasting, but it would provide evidence of your supernatural claims, which would be enough for me and probably most people here. But, alas, you're too busy. Surprise, surprise, surprise. You are called out on a specific claim, and you decline to demonstrate your abilities. Material not suitable for a moderated thread removed

Just a thought:

Drawing data from a volunteer's mother and her siblings and/or father and his siblings will taint the test, i.e., make it unfairly difficult to discern the true identity of the mother and/or father. Siblings and their children share the same gene pool: Mom and Pop's sisters and brothers may very well share similar astro-points. Many families share the same signs and points like the Sun, Moon, ASC, Moon's nodes, etc., and planetary "complexes", i.e., clusters of aspects like T-squares, kites, trines and so on, handing down these 'signatures' through generations. These and other astro-connections are used to identify mother/child and father/child bonds.

For example: I have Taurus on the MC (the midheaven, the angle of the chart most often associated with the mother; the IC/MC is considered a 'parental axis'). In any case, the point is that my MC (mother-angle) is in Taurus and my mother had the Moon in Taurus. But, my maternal aunt was also a Sun sign Taurus. So, in my opinion, it would be easy for AT to mistake a maternal sibling for the volunteer's mother.

I would suggest using four birth data/charts drawn from four different months of the year. One data/chart is actually the volunteer's mother. Three others you could make up -- but these made up charts should not be drawn from the same astro-birth month (by astro-month I mean when the suns enters and leaves a particular sign) as the volunteer's mother. Same with the father. As well, the false charts should have birth times different than the parents' birth times. At least three hours difference. That's what I'd want.

Sorry for the possible derail, but would you be willing to put this to a test, Bronwyn Elko? If we provide birtdates and other info for a group of people, would you be able to determine which ones are related and what that relationship is?

[Hokulele]

I would suggest using four birth data/charts drawn from four different months of the year. One data/chart is actually the volunteer's mother. Three others you could make up -- but these made up charts should not be drawn from the same astro-birth month (by astro-month I mean when the suns enters and leaves a particular sign) as the volunteer's mother. Same with the father. As well, the false charts should have birth times different than the parents' birth times. At least three hours difference. That's what I'd want.


Would you be interested in participating in such a test? I do have a number of volunteers, and can poll them to see which, if any, have information regarding their parents' birth dates/times.

If you choose to participate, would you need gender-similar pairs (mother/daughter, father/son)?

[Bronwyn Elko]

Sum: No. I have already stated elsewhere, on other threads, that I do not want to participate in proving astrology. I've been retired from astrology for eight years. I simply brought this up because I saw it as potential problem for AT. It's entirely up to him what protocols are used.

Gar: I never said that. I said that when it comes to a test of matching the charts of a volunteer's father and mother to his own, that one should not also include the siblings of either parent as test subjects.

[Professor Yaffle]

I have approved some posts that are starting to head in the direction of general discussion of astrology rather than specific discussion of a test. If you want to carry on this discussion, it would be better to take it to one of the other threads rater than derail this one from its purpose.

ETA Posts moved to the general astrology thread.

[Hokulele]

I would like to thank those of you who volunteered, but I am starting to doubt that there will be any discussion of the various protocols offered in this thread. I will certainly let you know if anything changes, but unless one of the astrologers cares to discuss an actual design for a demonstration, I am prepared to let this thread die.

*Sigh*

[Bronwyn Elko]

Speaking of dying, I renew my challenge to AT: if he's willing to give a shot at predicting (retroactive) death in a horoscope, so will I. Not because I think I can (I don't), but because I don't think he can, either. He has claimed that he can predict death, however. So, I will participate in this test ONLY if AT also agrees to.

[Bronwyn Elko]

I admit that both parties here -- AT and skeptics -- tempt me, Professor Yaffle.

While I can't vouch for AT being truly busy, I can say that's true for me. I 'm as disappointed as skeptics are that AT has fled the discussion.

When time permits I will consider taking up this and/or another challenge. Out of curiosity, nothing more. I like challenges and have no investment in being right.

Proving astrology and my fascination with it to others doesn't interest me. I already possess the best of what astrology has to offer: a personal, transpersonal and, figuratively speaking, transmortal bond with the universe.

Yes, I'm fully aware of how flaky that sounds.

So did flying to Mars at one time.;)

AT: where are you? This is no time to desert the field.

[Bronwyn Elko]

AT: I sincerely hope that you aren't responding to these posts because you are too busy. :catfight:

I sincerely wish you wouldn't abandon this skeptic field of contest -- it's an opportunity. It's also good to stretch our celestial limbs, and theirs.

Please agree to participate, with Uranus/Jupiter transits on top.:)