Dinesh D'Souza has proof of the afterlife!...

[HghrSymmetry]

Can't wait for the "scientific" evidence.

A new book promises incontrovertible proof of the afterlife.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/220296?GT1=43002

[Hux]

I though the Bible held that position?

[CurtC]

I thought D'Souza had been trying to cultivate a reputation of respectability, but a book like that will send him off into the fringe. Not sure how I feel about that.

[themusicteacher]

as well as proof that Dinesh D'Souza is a complete moron prone to confirmation bias, wishful thinking, begging the question and innumerable flights of fancy.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/220296?GT1=43002

But, people will buy it and say, "See, here's the evidence." Same old crap, different packaging. I wish there were a hell so people like Dinesh D'-%$#@ing-Souza would have a place to go when he dies for being such a self-righteous, blow-hard prick. Dinesh D'Souza=Grade-A douche.

[ugot2bekidding]

From the article:

Precisely because evil so often goes unpunished in this world, he asserts, the moral code must reflect another reality, in which souls are judged, punished, or rewarded after death.

I never understood how this is supposed to be a logical argument...it just seems like wishful thinking to me.

edit: Also, how would this system accommodate someone who hasn't suffered much or at all even? Would they be rewarded less? Could there be such a thing as 'less reward' once you reach eternal bliss in heaven? If this system does not take this into account then it's not very fair. I mean if someone suffers a lot, and another hasn't suffered at all then why should they get the same reward (i.e. eternal bliss)?

[Maia]

Dinesh D'Souza is such an idiot, which this latest news only goes towards confirming to an even greater extent. However, I really like the viewpoint and writing of the author of the article. So I'd recommend it from that POV. :)


as well as proof that Dinesh D'Souza is a complete moron prone to confirmation bias, wishful thinking, begging the question and innumerable flights of fancy.


Actually, I think it's even worse than that.


he looks to the human heart, and finds therein a universal moral code underlying acts of self-sacrifice and charity that appear to run counter to the Darwinian imperative to outcompete thy neighbor. This is a time-honored argument for the existence of a God who created human beings in his image and imbued them with a moral sense, as well as the free will to follow, or ignore, it.


Yep, that's a really scientific argument right there, folks.



D'Souza provides a checklist of benefits from believing in life after death: it keeps us honest, gives our lives "a sense of hope and purpose"—and "surveys show" that believers have better sex.



He has GOT to be kidding...

And best of all:


The director of AWARE is Dr. Sam Parnia, a fellow at Weill Cornell Medical Center. He told NEWSWEEK that researchers at 20 hospitals have identified about 600 subjects for interviews. Parnia expects to publish his results in 2010.


The problem here is that D'Souza's book has already been published, which is why this is a review of it. Makes it kind of hard to try to use the results of this study as evidence in the book.

ETA:

Oh, oh, there's also

It happens in the multiverse, the infinitely multiplying complex of worlds predicted by some versions of quantum theory. In the multiverse, physical laws can take on different values, and matter itself may have a different form, so "there is nothing in physics to contradict the idea that we can live beyond death in other realms with bodies that are unlike the bodies we now possess."



It really sounds like D'Souza doesn't even try to actually come up with any evidence, just weird religious arguments and random insertions of "quantum physics" at intervals.



My theory is that D'Souza wrote this book because he got jealous after reading... having read to him... okay, seeing the cover of John Shelby Spong's latest book, Eternal Life: A New Vision, Beyond Religion, Beyond Theism, Beyond Heaven and Hell. Is a horrible imitation still the sincerest form of flattery?

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

D'Souza provides a checklist of benefits from believing in life after death: it keeps us honest, gives our lives "a sense of hope and purpose" ...
I've asked this question of many believers in life after death: Exactly how does it give your life purpose? No response yet except to wonder how I could be asking a question with such an obvious answer.

~~ Paul

[KingMerv00]

Precisely because evil so often goes unpunished in this world, he asserts, the moral code must reflect another reality, in which souls are judged, punished, or rewarded after death.

Or maybe it reflects the will of an all powerful, all knowing, and evil deity.

Nah, that can't be right.

[TimCallahan]

I'm not quite sure how D'Souza gets life after death out of the multiverse. However, his invoking the multiverse is ironic, since one of the big trump cards for intelligent design supporters is the supposed fine tuning of our universe, the six numbers that, if they were any different would give a totally different, and possibly lifeless, universe. For example, if the charge on the proton were any stronger, the I.D. crowd asserts, we would not have atomic structure, since electrons would be pulled into the nucleus. The existence of multiple universes would mean that the six numbers are meaningless as an argument for a divinity. Our universe would be one of an infinite number of possible universes, the one in which the six numbers just happen, by pure chance, to be just right.

[Ethnikos]

Dinesh D'Souza is such an idiot,. . . He was on Coast to Coast last night. I have gotten into the habit of just halfway listening because I am a subscriber and I can always download the podcast and listen later, if I notice something interesting. So a lot of the time I am just monitoring the show, if nothing too interesting comes up. That would be the case with last night's show. The guy was saying something, but nothing to make me actually stop whatever I was doing, in order to listen carefully. (the earlier guest last night, I did listen to, about stop light cameras, which was interesting)

[themusicteacher]

Or maybe it reflects the will of an all powerful, all knowing, and evil deity.

Nah, that can't be right.

Oh, come now. You can't be suggesting God is capricious and vengeful. The guy is a sweetheart.

People like Duh'Souza refuse to believe that people make choices and that, yes, crimes frequently go unpunished. I understand that his view coincides with the notion of a"just God" but justice is very often not delivered; that does not mean that it will be delivered elsewhere by a magician with a scorecard. Life sucks sometimes. Get over it.

[Ethnikos]

I've asked this question of many believers in life after death: Exactly how does it give your life purpose? No response yet except to wonder how I could be asking a question with such an obvious answer.

~~ PaulHe was ripping on atheists last night. Something like, if you have no afterlife, one is prone to want to take as much as they can, not worrying about any consequences, just what they can get and enjoy right now. He didn't give any specific examples or show any studies to back it up. He just said it as if it was an indisputable fact.

[Maia]

He was on Coast to Coast last night. I have gotten into the habit of just halfway listening because I am a subscriber and I can always download the podcast and listen later, if I notice something interesting. So a lot of the time I am just monitoring the show, if nothing too interesting comes up. That would be the case with last night's show. The guy was saying something, but nothing to make me actually stop whatever I was doing, in order to listen carefully. (the earlier guest last night, I did listen to, about stop light cameras, which was interesting)

Well, Ethnikos, since you're a Coast to Coast subscriber, you'll have to let us know if you ever happen upon that mystical episode where the Jamison twins predicted the 9/11 attacks in 1999. :rolleyes: I think Bigfoot must have the only copy to date.

Anyway... um... (looks around)

(whistles innocently)

Okay, okay. I ordered the book on Amazon. The devil made me do it.

Satan: HEY! I'm tired of getting blamed for every idiotic thing humans decide to do! And can I take these horns and hoofs off now? Although on second thought, they do help me pick up chicks.

Me: Out out OUT! This is a skeptics' forum! Nobody believes in you!


Satan (winking) There's an orgy in a thread at the bottom of the page at midnight and everyone's invited--


Me: OUT!

Funny how this always happens whenever I'm home with the flu... The point is, I know I'm going to yell back at the author while reading every page and probably end up tearing the book to shreds, but I have to know just how awful it's going to be. Amazon promises that it will be here on Wednesday. Update and reviews to come! :)

[Ethnikos]

I'm not quite sure how D'Souza gets life after death out of the multiverse. However, his invoking the multiverse is ironic, since one of the big trump cards for intelligent design supporters is the supposed fine tuning of our universe, the six numbers that, if they were any different would give a totally different, and possibly lifeless, universe..What I thought was better was a guy who was on the other night, talking about research into Europa's oceans. You just have different lifeforms that can live in a different environment.

[Ethnikos]

Well, Ethnikos, since you're a Coast to Coast subscriber, you'll have to let us know if you ever happen upon that mystical episode where the Jamison twins predicted the 9/11 attacks in 1999. :rolleyes: I think Bigfoot must have the only copy to date.
The site is making archives available back to I think one year, now. They are supposed to be soon with shows going back two years.
Sometimes they play old Art Bell shows that then become accessible for a while, but it looks like that one from 1999 is not available right now.
It might not have been too hard to predict an attack after it had already been bombed once at that point. I do not give any credence to the people making psychic predictions because in all the years I've been listening, I haven't noticed those type of predictions coming true. Ones just made from common sense and actual research do come about, though.

[Maia]

Oh, come now. You can't be suggesting God is capricious and vengeful. The guy is a sweetheart.

People like Duh'Souza refuse to believe that people make choices and that, yes, crimes frequently go unpunished. I understand that his view coincides with the notion of a"just God" but justice is very often not delivered; that does not mean that it will be delivered elsewhere by a magician with a scorecard. Life sucks sometimes. Get over it.

Oops, Ethnikos already posted so I couldn't edit my post...

The thing is that there are so many inherent problems with this point of view anyway. If someone believes that God is going to deliver "justice" in the afterlife, then doesn't that mean that there's no reason to try to create a more just world in this life? Isn't that just a reason to allow crimes against humanity to go unpunished right now, when we could actually do something about them? It seems to me that it's nothing more than an excuse to sit around and ignore current injustice (which would go along with the rest of D'Souza's philosophy, strangely enough. :rolleyes: )

Also, D'Souza definitely seems to be arguing for a very particular version of the afterworld. Apparently God is going to be the private enforcer of a select few (everyone else, forget it.) I think he'd rather believe in nothing at all after death than to give up on the idea of this kind of so-called "justice."

[Achán hiNidráne]

And what the Hell is this "universal moral code" that D'Souza is blathering about? He obviously knows nothing of history or sociology or he'd realize that mores and ethics have been vastly different depending on the period and culture.

[Hux]

I'm interested in the Better sex Gig. Where do I sign up?

[Achán hiNidráne]

And if your smart-alecky kid, full of all that Galileo stuff they get in school nowadays, should ask just where this Judgment business takes place, D'Souza provides you with a response. It happens in the multiverse, the infinitely multiplying complex of worlds predicted by some versions of quantum theory. In the multiverse, physical laws can take on different values, and matter itself may have a different form, so "there is nothing in physics to contradict the idea that we can live beyond death in other realms with bodies that are unlike the bodies we now possess."

It's official! Dinesh D'Souza is the Christian Reich's Deepak Chopra!

[Hokulele]

It really sounds like D'Souza doesn't even try to actually come up with any evidence, just weird religious arguments and random insertions of "quantum physics" at intervals.


In other words, "same ol' same ol'". ;)

But I am looking forward to your review of this book.

[Maia]

In other words, "same ol' same ol'". ;)

But I am looking forward to your review of this book.

I will post an entire review thread. :) I'm still at home sick with the flu and the book should be coming tomorrow from Amazon, so that should even be very soon. Warning: many un-nice things may be said.

[HghrSymmetry]

My spider sense went off and I decided to tune into the Medved radio show today.

Yup, you guessed it...he had D'souza on as a guest. Mikey was going on about how it's such a fantastic book etc, etc.

It's odd...I understand how cultural indoctrination and natural selection may have fostered compartmentalized irrationality in humans...
..but when I hear reasonably intelligent people defending and rationalizing nonsense.......I just don't get used to it.

I guess I feel they should be able to overcome such beliefs. But I'm probably just being irrational that way.

[HghrSymmetry]

...oh and mods...thank you for merging the threads. I guess mine took first billing since it was chronologically first.

[Hux]

My spider sense went off and I decided to tune into the Medved radio show today.

Yup, you guessed it...he had D'souza on as a guest. Mikey was going on about how it's such a fantastic book etc, etc.

It's odd...I understand how cultural indoctrination and natural selection may have fostered compartmentalized irrationality in humans...
..but when I hear reasonably intelligent people defending and rationalizing nonsense.......I just don't get used to it.

I guess I feel they should be able to overcome such beliefs. But I'm probably just being irrational that way.

I feel your pain. I have wrestled with this issue a long time and cannot come to a conclusion. Compartment of thought. I can understand the process I just dont see why? I know there are beleivers out there who by any standards are better educated and more intelligent than I. But they belive the most ridiculous things to be true. I often cite Ken Miller, the biologist who almost single handedly destroyed the ID case in Dover. He is a scientist in all true senses of the word and yet he decribes himself as a devout Catholic. How does such a person understand reason yet accepts the irrational?

I used to tell myself that believers can be intelligent but not as intelligent as they could be. But then, I read someone like Hamelekim and see an automaton with a reasonable memory for one book and a Borg like behaviour in all else. So what is it with these people? How can you be sane all week and deluded on a Sunday (or whatever your Sabbath happens to be?)

[HghrSymmetry]

Indeed Hux.

Perhaps the evolutionary biologists (Wislon et al) may have a point. There may have been a selection pressure on early hominids to use reason and intelligence to survive.
However at the same time another selection pressure was operating to suspend that very reason to follow the leaders mythology if it provided a cohesiveness to the group...ensuring safety and reproduction.

Combine a predisposition with cultural memetic indoctrination and you get a powerful "one-two" punch that has become a "normal" human trait to which even great scientists are not immune to.

[CurtC]

However at the same time another selection pressure was operating to suspend that very reason to follow the leaders mythology if it provided a cohesiveness to the group...ensuring safety and reproduction.

There's more than that. Humans have a tendency to perceive agency even when there is none. I think that humans aren't the only ones - other animals do too. That tree branch that fell and almost hit you was intended to fall by that tree character, so you better watch out for him next time. Thinking like this probably helps creatures survive, and it explains how we're naturally superstitious even without a need to follow an alpha male.

[Hux]

Indeed Hux.

Perhaps the evolutionary biologists (Wislon et al) may have a point. There may have been a selection pressure on early hominids to use reason and intelligence to survive.
However at the same time another selection pressure was operating to suspend that very reason to follow the leaders mythology if it provided a cohesiveness to the group...ensuring safety and reproduction.

Combine a predisposition with cultural memetic indoctrination and you get a powerful "one-two" punch that has become a "normal" human trait to which even great scientists are not immune to.

Thank you for that. I can see where Wilson is coming from but it beggars so many questions. Given that our cultural evolution far outweighs our physical by several magnitudes, how do some of us hold on to these pressures that do not 'need' to be there? When science emerged into our consciousness, we understood it to be the only process we could develop that would yeild answers we can be confident about. So how can a person so immersed in the process of science, completely ignore it for one part of their lives? It must require a switch?

How does a person who studies and explains the genetic codes of life on this planet, suddenly drop to his knees and accept Jesus into his life? How does a man who spends his life learning and understanding life's processes believe in a Virgin Birth? How does a renowned physicist see the majesty of the universe as the hand of God? These people cannot be mad ( I assume) but, given what they are prepared to believe with unsupported notions (the very antithesis of their scientific lives) how do they trust their own judgements? How may we?

[HghrSymmetry]

Thank you for that. I can see where Wilson is coming from but it beggars so many questions. Given that our cultural evolution far outweighs our physical by several magnitudes, how do some of us hold on to these pressures that do not 'need' to be there? When science emerged into our consciousness, we understood it to be the only process we could develop that would yeild answers we can be confident about. So how can a person so immersed in the process of science, completely ignore it for one part of their lives? It must require a switch?

Good questions. Maybe it is sort of a "switch". If the Darwinian explanation is part of the answer, then perhaps this is not an aberration, but actually "normal."
In other words, if there is a selection pressure for a certain type of thought pattern no matter how utterly ridiculous or nonsensical it may be, it will none the less be selected for.
If something results in greater genetic fitness of the organism, it has more of a chance of being passed on than not.



How does a person who studies and explains the genetic codes of life on this planet, suddenly drop to his knees and accept Jesus into his life? How does a man who spends his life learning and understanding life's processes believe in a Virgin Birth? How does a renowned physicist see the majesty of the universe as the hand of God? These people cannot be mad ( I assume) but, given what they are prepared to believe with unsupported notions (the very antithesis of their scientific lives) how do they trust their own judgements? How may we?

My cultural and Darwinian points were in no way intended to be exhaustive.
Fear of death, psychological comfort, community bonding, need for answers, false pattern recognition, attributing cause and effect to only superficially correlated items, etc, etc.
Perhaps many factors are at play.
But again, perhaps humans simply have this predisposition and all the cultural and psychological factors greatly fuel this process.
One of history's greatest physicists (Newton) could be classified as a total woo for his belief in a personal gawd entity and his incessant study of the bible looking for hidden codes.

[sackett]

Question: Has anyone here ever tried to get in touch with D'Souza and invite him to visit the forum? I assume the man has a site somewhere with a "Contact Us for the Latest Bargains!" button.

Don't look at me. I once tried to get in a conversation with Gene Ray. Once burned, etc.

[hgc]

...
But again, perhaps humans simply have this predisposition and all the cultural and psychological factors greatly fuel this process.
One of history's greatest physicists (Newton) could be classified as a total woo for his belief in a personal gawd entity and his incessant study of the bible looking for hidden codes.


If you haven't already read Neal Stephenson's The Baroque Cycle, you ought to. Newton is a semi-major character, and the depiction of him is very entertaining.

[HghrSymmetry]

Question: Has anyone here ever tried to get in touch with D'Souza and invite him to visit the forum? I assume the man has a site somewhere with a "Contact Us for the Latest Bargains!" button.

Don't look at me. I once tried to get in a conversation with Gene Ray. Once burned, etc.

He does have an email address on his site. It would probably be a long shot, but you never know.

If you haven't already read Neal Stephenson's The Baroque Cycle, you ought to. Newton is a semi-major character, and the depiction of him is very entertaining.

Thanks hgc. I'll look in to it.

[HghrSymmetry]

The assault continues.

Couple weeks ago Medved had D'Souza.
Last week he had on David Berlinski "discussing" his book Devil's Delusion (a jab at Dawkins).
Today a local show (Monson) has on D'Souza while Medved continues the nonsense with a "debate" between a science writer vs one of the stiffs from the Discovery Institue (the I.D. nuts).

Sheesh! The amount of woo around here is amazing.

[hgc]

Medved is a charter member of the Jewish Auxiliary Brigade of the Christianist Right, along with Ben Stein and Dennis Prager. If you read Philip Roth's The Plot Against America, you'll get the idea.

[Hux]

HyrSymm. wrote:

My cultural and Darwinian points were in no way intended to be exhaustive.
Fear of death, psychological comfort, community bonding, need for answers, false pattern recognition, attributing cause and effect to only superficially correlated items, etc, etc.
Perhaps many factors are at play.
But again, perhaps humans simply have this predisposition and all the cultural and psychological factors greatly fuel this process.
One of history's greatest physicists (Newton) could be classified as a total woo for his belief in a personal gawd entity and his incessant study of the bible looking for hidden codes.

I understand that part. I also understand our cultural evolution has grown several magnitudes faster than our physical and many have struggled to come to terms with that. I am sure that Newton is the classic example rolled out to show that men of science can be full of woo also. Hell, even Darwin was a creationist long after he got off the Beagle. But his mind set changed. To all intents and purposes, his findings and the death of his daughter Annie all but destroyed the woo side of his life.

Why would this be? I suppose it was because he became the eponymous scientist. He never jumped to a conclusion. And Like Laplace before him, had no need of a God hypothesis..

Knowing what humanity knows now, knowing what we are capable of, knowing what we think we might achieve in the future I find it less convincing for a modern person to be an award winning physicist and yet put it all down to the Grace of a God. Newton had his excuses. Who has that excuse now? Either you call yourself a scientist, implying you follow scientific principles of observation and experiment or you are not. How can such a man then allow himself to entertain woo at the same time?

There may have been a time when believing any crap might have had an evolutionary advantage. Im not sure I can see it. The truth works just as well when you are running away from Leopards. However, today's person knows a great deal more, understands his roots, denies many of them for the sake of a decent society and goes on to believe things entirely against his very core. I just cannot get my head around how a person who calls himself a scientist will believe in something as real, that he cannot see, cannot examine, cannot experiment, has no empirical evidence and absolutely zero observation. If he insisted on this criteria in his professional life, he would be laughed at. How does such a person therefore, don a woo cap on a sunday and honestly go through the motions? I would dearly like to hear from someone like that, to see how they justify the paradox.

[HghrSymmetry]

Today's Medved guest:
William Dembski.
He is pushing his book "End of xianity, finding a good gawd in an evil world" (or something like that).

Woo fest full steam ahead. lol!

;)

[HghrSymmetry]

Dead thread revival rating;
6.5

Medved is a charter member of the Jewish Auxiliary Brigade of the Christianist Right, along with Ben Stein and Dennis Prager.

Isn't it a bit odd though to be such an ally of xians? To a devout Jew, these are people following a false messiah and are destined to be forever separated from gawd because of their egregious error...right?

[Darth Rotor]

Isn't it a bit odd though to be such an ally of xians? To a devout Jew, these are people following a false messiah and are destined to be forever separated from gawd because of their egregious error...right?
Apparently, it's not that simple.

[TraneWreck]

So the "way things are" is total proof that they aren't really that way at all?

Seems like a solid argument...

[hgc]

Isn't it a bit odd though to be such an ally of xians? To a devout Jew, these are people following a false messiah and are destined to be forever separated from gawd because of their egregious error...right?


It's a political thing, and got nothing to do with religious belief. Right-wing Jews find common cause with right-wing Christians.

[HghrSymmetry]

Acknowledged. A shame that when they kick the bucket, they'll be separated forever.

[TimCallahan]

You should be able to read my review of D'Souza's book in the next issue of Skeptic. Bottom line; The book lacks substance.

[paiute]

I'm not quite sure how D'Souza gets life after death out of the multiverse. However, his invoking the multiverse is ironic, since one of the big trump cards for intelligent design supporters is the supposed fine tuning of our universe, the six numbers that, if they were any different would give a totally different, and possibly lifeless, universe. For example, if the charge on the proton were any stronger, the I.D. crowd asserts, we would not have atomic structure, since electrons would be pulled into the nucleus. The existence of multiple universes would mean that the six numbers are meaningless as an argument for a divinity. Our universe would be one of an infinite number of possible universes, the one in which the six numbers just happen, by pure chance, to be just right.

To make his work a little more automated, God had the bright idea to have a new universe clone off every time a quantum state split and it just got out of hand:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/19550880/GUT-The-Grand-Unified-Theory-A-oneact-play-with-seven-blackouts

[hgc]

Acknowledged. A shame that when they kick the bucket, they'll be separated forever.


Yes, but then so shall we all. ;)