In Satan's Name

[JoeyDonuts]

This is an extremely difficult subject for me to bring up.

When I was a kid, my parents got involved with a church in the Tulsa area called Morningstar Church. I'd been involved in churches since I was very little, and they were all what you'd expect. Nice people, Sunday School programs, services over in time for football.

Not this one.

This one was led by a charismatic man by the name of Pastor Doug Riggs. The services typically took up about 4-5 hours on a Sunday afternoon, and several times throughout the week as well. The sermons, from what I recall, delved heavily into "spiritual warfare." This was at the height of the "Satanic Panic" some of you might recall, and this church/cult may as well have been ground zero. Despite having no formal psychological practice training, this man "diagnosed" the afflictions of his flock as being entirely the hand of Satan.

His sermons were little more than conspiracy-laden diatribes. I remember what I felt when my parents were attending this weekly marathons. A combination of boredom and fear when I was paying attention. I didn't understand most of what he said, but I too was rather mesmerized by him. And I was scared as hell. I didn't get to read Marvel Comics, or secular literature. I didn't get to listen to Depeche Mode like the friends I wasn't supposed to associate with. I couldn't even listen to *********** jazz. One time, my parents found a stack of Marvel superhero trading cards on me.

That earned me a counseling session with this man. I don't remember what happened, and I don't think I want to.

Pastor Doug Riggs was the subject of a documentary film some years ago called "In Satan's Name." My little brother found these clips. I almost threw up when I watched them. There isn't any "extreme" content, just some NSFW language from a person supposedly in the throes of demonic possession.

I'd like to hear the community's take on this guy. I don't know why, but seeing this videos again has got me depressed as all hell.

Let me know what you think. I guess I've never really "dealt" with all of this. The portion germane to my old church starts at 03:05 into the first video and continues through the next two.

HqazJuKxa04

Yvh_XniD5SM

jKgeTRrXhMo

[~enigma~]

You do know that Lucifer is the morning star right?

[gtc]

That is a terrible story.

Take care of yourself.

[A.A. Alfie]

Thanks Joey
I hope you find the answers you need.
Are your folks still around to talk about this? That might be a good place to start too.

I can offer nothing except my thanks for sharing this with us.

It also proves to me again, that too often it is human beings (and their ego's) that through religion, can really stuff up peoples spirituality.

AAA

[Cainkane1]

This is an extremely difficult subject for me to bring up.

When I was a kid, my parents got involved with a church in the Tulsa area called Morningstar Church. I'd been involved in churches since I was very little, and they were all what you'd expect. Nice people, Sunday School programs, services over in time for football.

Not this one.

This one was led by a charismatic man by the name of Pastor Doug Riggs. The services typically took up about 4-5 hours on a Sunday afternoon, and several times throughout the week as well. The sermons, from what I recall, delved heavily into "spiritual warfare." This was at the height of the "Satanic Panic" some of you might recall, and this church/cult may as well have been ground zero. Despite having no formal psychological practice training, this man "diagnosed" the afflictions of his flock as being entirely the hand of Satan.

His sermons were little more than conspiracy-laden diatribes. I remember what I felt when my parents were attending this weekly marathons. A combination of boredom and fear when I was paying attention. I didn't understand most of what he said, but I too was rather mesmerized by him. And I was scared as hell. I didn't get to read Marvel Comics, or secular literature. I didn't get to listen to Depeche Mode like the friends I wasn't supposed to associate with. I couldn't even listen to *********** jazz. One time, my parents found a stack of Marvel superhero trading cards on me.

That earned me a counseling session with this man. I don't remember what happened, and I don't think I want to.

Pastor Doug Riggs was the subject of a documentary film some years ago called "In Satan's Name." My little brother found these clips. I almost threw up when I watched them. There isn't any "extreme" content, just some NSFW language from a person supposedly in the throes of demonic possession.

I'd like to hear the community's take on this guy. I don't know why, but seeing this videos again has got me depressed as all hell.

Let me know what you think. I guess I've never really "dealt" with all of this. The portion germane to my old church starts at 03:05 into the first video and continues through the next two.

HqazJuKxa04

Yvh_XniD5SM

jKgeTRrXhMo
He sounds like a plain ol run of the mill hard shell Baptist to me. Loud obnoxious and fanatical and so very very wrong. There is no satan, there is no God, there is no afterlife. Perhaps you need to be in counceling to rid yourself of the anxiety you suffered at the hands of this man.

[Dancing David]

The strange thing about the people who believe in the satanic conspiracy is that they all just self reference each other.

Sad really, the OTO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordo_Templi_Orientis) temple in Chicago is proof of satanism, which it isn't. But then they all quote the same person and then they quote each other.

I believe that the temple that is shown in phptographs is closed now, but they are shown in many books about satanism.

Now they are wierd ("http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liber_XV,_The_Gnostic_Mass) and strange ("http://sacred-texts.com/oto/lib44.htm) but they are not satanists.
(these rituals are coded sex magic, the words say one thing and mean another.)

The hatred and bigotry of cults is well established, USers just turn a blind eye to Xian cults. I was raised in Christ Science by two very nice parents, it took me twenty years to heal that harm done to me. (And Xian science isn't even hateful, just harmful.)

[Cayvmann]

Damn, he keeps addressing the same demons and casts them out, but they keep coming back. I guess he doesn't speak with the correct authoritative name.

My mom was into this paranoia of the devil, and to some extent still is. Luckily the rest of us avoided the craziness of it all. Well, my sister is in a wierdo church, but it skipped all the boys. Must be something in the female genes.

[slingblade]

Being a Tulsa native, and a former Pentecostal Fundie, I know too damned well how deeply this can mess a person up.

Joey, you have my sympathetic shoulder and my support. Those sicko bastards make me so angry. Sorry, hon.

[kedo1981]

Joey
I just finished the "Reason driven Life" by Price
He totally deconstructs the myths and legends of Satan
It would be a good read for you

[JoeyDonuts]

He sounds like a plain ol run of the mill hard shell Baptist to me.

Having been through many different Baptist denominations, I have to disagree with you here. Mr. Riggs was far beyond the typical minister you'd see in this area. Perhaps a hard-line Pat Robertson Southern Baptist would agree with himn on the "principalities and powers" philosophy, but even the most staunch Baptists around here fall well short of Mr. Riggs' extreme SRA beliefs, and sociopathic tendencies, particularly with the stuff about breaking away from the family.

I didn't see my grandparents or aunts or uncles for about eight years while my parents were going there.

There is no satan, there is no God, there is no afterlife.

I've been at that conclusion myself for some time.

Perhaps you need to be in counceling to rid yourself of the anxiety you suffered at the hands of this man.

I think I'm probably just going to have to confront my parents about it. It's a good time to do it, things are way different now and they've backed off of the hardcore stuff considerably. They're still dyed-in-the-wool Baptists, but that I can deal with since they don't make any attempt to prosyletize me, and haven't for about ten years.

[Dancing David]

I think I'm probably just going to have to confront my parents about it. It's a good time to do it, things are way different now and they've backed off of the hardcore stuff considerably. They're still dyed-in-the-wool Baptists, but that I can deal with since they don't make any attempt to prosyletize me, and haven't for about ten years.

Be careful and safe with that. The people who were in denial when they did something are sometimes still in denial.

And it can be very painful to deal with.

[CurtC]

Have you ever heard this episode of This American Life?

http://www.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?sched=1273

It's about a preacher at a pentecostal church in Tulsa, and it's one of the best hours of radio I've ever heard:Carlton Pearson's church, Higher Dimensions, was once one of the biggest in the city, drawing crowds of 5,000 people every Sunday. But several years ago, scandal engulfed the reverend. He didn't have an affair. He didn't embezzle lots of money. His sin was something that to a lot of people is far worse: He stopped believing in Hell.

[JoeyDonuts]

Yeah. Pearson's kind of a pariah in this town anymore. This really is a place full of megachurches, and his used to be the biggest one around. If you've ever seen the King of the Hill episode where they end up going to a Megachurch, that's about it.

[Dancing David]

Have you ever heard this episode of This American Life?

http://www.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?sched=1273

It's about a preacher at a pentecostal church in Tulsa, and it's one of the best hours of radio I've ever heard:

Great story, great show!

[Toke]

I have no experience with this, it sounds horrible.

The videos are downloading now, I will see them tonight.

[Bikewer]

At the height of the "ritual Satanic abuse" nonsense, we (in law enforcement) were subjected to a training course on "how to detect the signs of Satanic activity".

Some born-again police officer had apparently decided to cash in on the fad and had produced a series of videos and pamphlets he was hawking to departments.
Utterly sillly.

[Toke]

I feel ill watching that.
The voice-over "taking christianity back to the middle ages" is quite accurate.

[MattusMaximus]

Hey Joey, I feel for you, man...

As a kid I was never exposed to that level of lunacy in any church I attended, but I distinctly recall going over to one house after church on a Saturday (my father flirted with Seventh-Day Adventism after the folks got divorced). After lunch, we all went into the living room and the kids all sat on the floor while the adults played a record of what the End Of The WorldTM would sound like, complete with "sinners" being cast into the fires of Hell, being eternally stabbed with demon's forks, tearing out their eyes in agony, etc etc etc. :boggled:

I sat there, jaw agape, listening to this horrendous stuff. Then I looked around the room, saw all the adults (including Dad) nodding approvingly & knowingly at the "lesson" we were learning. Meanwhile, every other kid in the room was eating this crap up.

It was then I made a very firm decision to simply get the hell away from those folks. In fact, it was one of the experiences I had which caused me to question the assumed "goodness" of religious belief.

Damn, I remember it like it was yesterday - spooky2.

[MattusMaximus]

At the height of the "ritual Satanic abuse" nonsense, we (in law enforcement) were subjected to a training course on "how to detect the signs of Satanic activity".

Some born-again police officer had apparently decided to cash in on the fad and had produced a series of videos and pamphlets he was hawking to departments.
Utterly sillly.

It would have been utterly silly, if not for the unfortunate fact that quite a few decent people had their lives utterly ruined as a result of this stupid moral panic. For example, the infamous Oak Hill trial. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oak_Hill_satanic_ritual_abuse_trial)

Stupidity & credulity can seriously frak with people.

[pakeha]

hi, joeydonuts. Thanks for the OP and the vids links.

Apparently the 'repressed SRA childhood experience' scam is originally sourced from a single book

http://www.members.shaw.ca/imaginarycrimes/howRAstarted.htm
In 1980, a psychiatrist and his patient published a book, advertised as a true story, about her experiences as a five-year-old child in a satanic cult in the genteel seaside Canadian city of Victoria. The book, Michelle Remembers, became a bestseller. In it, Dr. Lawrence Pazder and Michelle Smith Pazder (for she became his wife as well as his patient) related the sexual and other tortures inflicted on the young Michelle by a secret coven of Satanists. Dr. Pazder believed that his patient, whom he had been treating for depression, had repressed all memories of these events until, with his help, she was able to recover them by going into a trance-like state.

[JoeyDonuts]

"Michelle Remembers" is generally accepted to be where it started, but it was reinforced through people like Bob Larson with his demon-blasting antics, Mike Warnke, Jack Chick, and a host of others that were just accepted.

From what I can see it became a self-reinforcing farce.

[Darth Rotor]

I don't know how to say this without feeling clumsy, shipmate, but this guy is best left in your rear view mirror, slowly receding into nothing as you drive forward down your road of life.

Whatever you are going to, or toward, is more important than what you are moving away from.

DR

[godless dave]

I don't know how to say this without feeling clumsy, shipmate, but this guy is best left in your rear view mirror, slowly receding into nothing as you drive forward down your road of life.

Whatever you are going to, or toward, is more important than what you are moving away from.

DR

While this is true, the impact of childhood trauma should not be underestimated. A good therapist might help you work through the effects of such trauma. The key word there is "good"; there are lots of bad therapists.

[Darth Rotor]

While this is true, the impact of childhood trauma should not be underestimated. A good therapist might help you work through the effects of such trauma. The key word there is "good"; there are lots of bad therapists.
I concur that childhood trauma may need more than "just turn your back on it." I don't offer "see a therapist" on internet boards as a suggestion. I have seen it too often used in a condescending and negative light.

I also think that Joey is self aware enough that if he thinks he needs a therapist, he'll get out the phone book and call one for an appointment.

DR

[Mira]

I am so sorry you had to go through that horrible ordeal. There are no words to describe how wrong that is. The video links made me sick too. It is absolutely frightening how people can be brainwashed into thinking that they were abused, even when they have no memory of it.

It is sick and wrong what they "pastor" was doing. Even though I don't know you, I feel for you and am glad you got away from it. I can completely understand why those videos would make you depressed. Those things that were said and done are so wrong on so many levels.

A non religious form of counseling may help if you feel you need it. It may be a good thing to talk it out with someone you can see rather than faceless figures on a world wide forum. But I hope it helps.

Good Luck.

Mira

[JoeyDonuts]

I think the best therapy would be a stiff right cross.

Of course, that would entail searching across the country so I could punch out what is now a 65+ year old man.

Actually, that doesn't bother me so much since I'd totally dropkick Andy Rooney if given the chance.

This has been affecting me lately, but DR is right. I will probably wind up asking my parents about it but for all I know they want to leave the whole thing in their rearview mirror as well.

For the record I should state I have no recollection of being influenced to believe I was ritualistically abused. Mr. Riggs usually selected 'targets' that were already suffering from some kind of emotional distress ranging from simple marital 'bedroom' issues everybody has, to Munchausen Syndrome, to full blown paranoid schizophrenia and possible drug use, to flat out making **** up for the attention.

The worst part is that these people did not receive the treatment they needed.

My parents have kept in contact with one of the people in the video, and it did not turn out well. There was a divorce, one of their kids committed suicide, another one is constantly being arrested for this and that, and it turns out the husband was beating her rather badly the whole time they went to the church - and the Pastor knew about it. Rather than refer them to the proper domestic violence authorities, he "treated" them himself.

However, she has, like many in the church, moved on and appears to be happy. Her daughter whom I remember from my time there has apparently just entered private law practice.

[JoeyDonuts]

Here's some stuff he's written about his approach to treating Disassociative Identity Disorder (formerly known as MPD):

Hold your nose before you read it. It gets ugly. For example:

In working with SRA/DID it is very important not to conclude that all of your client's problems are necessarily demonic. But the presence of the demonic will always exacerbate the whole spectrum of dissociative symptoms. Therefore the removal of all such demonic influence is essential to the client's healing and resolution.

http://www.his-forever.com/how_to_recognize_and_discern_the_demonic_element.p df

[Ethnikos]

Damn, he keeps addressing the same demons and casts them out, but they keep coming back. I guess he doesn't speak with the correct authoritative name.I get annoyed when people do that, as if you say the name of Jesus just right then the incantation will work.
I don't think that was what Jesus meant by healing people in his name.
There is a couple of places in Acts where the Apostles said, "in the name of Jesus." and they had instant results.
Paul said, "Do not be like the heathen, endlessly repeating prayers, as if that is going to make God hear you."
It seems like a mockery to do what looks like actually daring demons to posses people.

[Ethnikos]

"Michelle Remembers" is generally accepted to be where it started, but it was reinforced through people like Bob Larson with his demon-blasting antics, Mike Warnke, Jack Chick, and a host of others that were just accepted.

From what I can see it became a self-reinforcing farce.
I used to listen to Pastor Gene Scott (back when he was still alive) because his show came in clear on my short wave. The man would sometimes be quoting from the Amityville Horror. I would think, "Don't you realize that is fiction?" He would throw in all this information, from the book, into his sermons about demons and I thought, "Oh that really helps your credibility."
Lots of people have delusions. Like when I lived in California, I told one of my friends who was quoting Don Juan from Carlos Castaneda, the same thing I would have said to old Pastor Gene. "Oh, no! that's ridiculous, all the stuff in these books really happened!" and was very offended with me to where I had to back away from him.

[Fiona]

Joey if that made you depressed and angry you are doing better than I think I could do if I had been exposed to that. It is hard to watch such abuse; hard to believe that is legal. I know, consenting adults: but where is the consent in coercive persuasion? I don't see anything here except power tripping and self delusion and a complete lack of care for others.

I echo Dancing David's call for you to be careful in confronting your parents: Keep your self safe above all else. It may be that they will not validate your experience and if you need them to do that it will hurt.

I think to bring this here was extremely courageous and I, too, feel clumsy and out of my depth. But I wish you well, for what that is worth

[pakeha]

Here's some stuff he's written about his approach to treating Disassociative Identity Disorder (formerly known as MPD):

Hold your nose before you read it. It gets ugly. For example:



http://www.his-forever.com/how_to_recognize_and_discern_the_demonic_element.p df

:eye-poppi
From the linked article:
I have often found alters who could not hear or speak because of the presence of deaf
and dumb spirits. These spirits are usually attached to alters which also carry the 'don't
talk/don't tell' programming. By commanding these deaf and dumb spirits to leave in
the name of Jesus Christ, the captive alters can be released and worked with. This may
include identifying the nature of the programming and its neutralization.

[JoeyDonuts]

Yeah, isn't that nice?

If you're not talking to him, it's because you've been programmed with a mute demonic entity.

[JoeyDonuts]

Lots of people have delusions. Like when I lived in California, I told one of my friends who was quoting Don Juan from Carlos Castaneda, the same thing I would have said to old Pastor Gene. "Oh, no! that's ridiculous, all the stuff in these books really happened!" and was very offended with me to where I had to back away from him.

People like Doug Riggs claim the mandate for what they do to people comes directly from "God Almighty" as illuminated through the "Holy Scriptures." They throw around the same scriptures from the same Bible you do. Where the Bible is concerned, what makes Doug Riggs' behavior 'delusional' and other, less extreme Christian counseling ministers 'correct?'

[Ethnikos]

People like Doug Riggs claim the mandate for what they do to people comes directly from "God Almighty" as illuminated through the "Holy Scriptures." They throw around the same scriptures from the same Bible you do. Where the Bible is concerned, what makes Doug Riggs' behavior 'delusional' and other, less extreme Christian counseling ministers 'correct?'I can't hardly comment on that. If people want to come to him then I think that is their right. I wouldn't advise it.
What I was talking about is how one person writes a book about something they think happened to them, and then people just accept it, as if it is something they already wanted to believe in.
I do believe in miracles but you should realize at some point if you are performing them or making a mockery of it.

[JoeyDonuts]

I can't hardly comment on that. If people want to come to him then I think that is their right. I wouldn't advise it.

I believe what he does should be illegal, since he's fulfilling the role of a mental health professional. Unfortunately the law will never support this any more than it will support the prosecution of a reflexologist that treats cancer patients. It's deplorable and should be punishable under law, but I just don't see the laws catching up with this, ever.

What I was talking about is how one person writes a book about something they think happened to them, and then people just accept it, as if it is something they already wanted to believe in.

Yeah. I've heard of that book. It's called the Bible and every other religious tome that's studied and used as a focus for worship nowadays.

I do believe in miracles but you should realize at some point if you are performing them or making a mockery of it.

You'd have to define "miracle" first. Doug Riggs probably thinks he was able to work "miracles" during his counseling sessions. If you describe a "miracle" as "an event or action whose only possible explanation is supernatural" you'd have to be completely sure of that fact first by eliminating all other possible scientific explanations.

Even if a so-called miracle could pass this test (it won't) you still can't say conclusively that it's supernatural or the "Hand of God" without overwhelming evidence to that fact - evidence that would in and of itself also be a miracle, like God physically manifesting in front of multiple people out of thin air, publicly and to non-believers as well as those whose perceptions could be influenced.

I'd wager that nearly all of your modern day "miracle workers" know for certain they're not performing miracles, unless Binny Hinn really believes he's able to have the Holy Spirit conjure up a big ol' flaming ball of agape and focus it through his $4000 sport coat.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Wow, that childhood experience sounds like it was a bummer, JoeyD. It amazes me though how many kids exposed to this kind of stuff figure out the rational world eventually. Good for you. I never had to overcome anything from my childhood to think rationally except my Dad's staunch Republican leanings. ;)

[Ethnikos]

I believe what he does should be illegal, since he's fulfilling the role of a mental health professional. Unfortunately the law will never support this any more than it will support the prosecution of a reflexologist that treats cancer patients. It's deplorable and should be punishable under law, but I just don't see the laws catching up with this, ever. What he did would be preferable to having those people all burned at the stake. You should be careful what you wish for.
Yeah. I've heard of that book. It's called the Bible and every other religious tome that's studied and used as a focus for worship nowadays.I doubt that the people who wrote the Bible were intentionally being deceptive, in order to turn a profit in sales. I think those were just meant for their own enjoyment.
You'd have to define "miracle" first. Doug Riggs probably thinks he was able to work "miracles" during his counseling sessions. If you describe a "miracle" as "an event or action whose only possible explanation is supernatural" you'd have to be completely sure of that fact first by eliminating all other possible scientific explanations. Somebody who I know personally (as in not just on the internet) just told me about when he was leading a church meeting and was a little let down on the spiritual experience in the congregation. He thought, Jesus said that when two or more are gathered together. He decided to take him up on the offer and called for the presence of God to enter the church. Oops, big mistake. You really don't want God to actually show up, that is if you want to keep living. There were burnt out light bulbs that suddenly lit up and the people were not able to breath. (of course they could a little, but just enough to maintain consciousness) He went to a nursing home to give communion and there was one who was in a coma. He called her name and she sat up and took communion from him. Three days later she died.
Even if a so-called miracle could pass this test (it won't) you still can't say conclusively that it's supernatural or the "Hand of God" without overwhelming evidence to that fact - evidence that would in and of itself also be a miracle, like God physically manifesting in front of multiple people out of thin air, publicly and to non-believers as well as those whose perceptions could be influenced.If you want to launch an investigation, I could give you the names and places, if you trust witnesses.

I'd wager that nearly all of your modern day "miracle workers" know for certain they're not performing miracles, unless Binny Hinn really believes he's able to have the Holy Spirit conjure up a big ol' flaming ball of agape and focus it through his $4000 sport coat.Depends. In the case of this friend, he was worshipped like he was the Dalai Lama. He had to run away because he did not want that sort of thing. Jesus, at a lot of points in his ministry, had to get away from the crowds.

[JWideman]

It gets easier the more you talk about it.

[pakeha]

[QUOTE]I believe what he does should be illegal, since he's fulfilling the role of a mental health professional. Unfortunately the law will never support this any more than it will support the prosecution of a reflexologist that treats cancer patients. It's deplorable and should be punishable under law, but I just don't see the laws catching up with this, ever.

Legally, JoeyDonuts, I seem to recall only a licensed physician can diagnose and prescribe treatment for a medical condition.
It could be argued this 'pastor', by putting that arrant nonsense about deafness being caused by 'demons' on his webpage without a medical 'disclaimer' has crossed into the medical terrain.

It would be an interesting legal battle; however, realistically, I have to agree with Darth.
Put it behind you.
However, if you can't, maybe working with people caught in the meshes of this disgusting scam is an idea. Or blogging.

All the best to you, JoeyDonuts.

[Eric D]

This is an extremely difficult subject for me to bring up.

When I was a kid, my parents got involved with a church in the Tulsa area called Morningstar Church. I'd been involved in churches since I was very little, and they were all what you'd expect. Nice people, Sunday School programs, services over in time for football.

Not this one.

This one was led by a charismatic man by the name of Pastor Doug Riggs. The services typically took up about 4-5 hours on a Sunday afternoon, and several times throughout the week as well. The sermons, from what I recall, delved heavily into "spiritual warfare." This was at the height of the "Satanic Panic" some of you might recall, and this church/cult may as well have been ground zero. Despite having no formal psychological practice training, this man "diagnosed" the afflictions of his flock as being entirely the hand of Satan.

His sermons were little more than conspiracy-laden diatribes. I remember what I felt when my parents were attending this weekly marathons. A combination of boredom and fear when I was paying attention. I didn't understand most of what he said, but I too was rather mesmerized by him. And I was scared as hell. I didn't get to read Marvel Comics, or secular literature. I didn't get to listen to Depeche Mode like the friends I wasn't supposed to associate with. I couldn't even listen to *********** jazz. One time, my parents found a stack of Marvel superhero trading cards on me.

That earned me a counseling session with this man. I don't remember what happened, and I don't think I want to.

Pastor Doug Riggs was the subject of a documentary film some years ago called "In Satan's Name." My little brother found these clips. I almost threw up when I watched them. There isn't any "extreme" content, just some NSFW language from a person supposedly in the throes of demonic possession.

I'd like to hear the community's take on this guy. I don't know why, but seeing this videos again has got me depressed as all hell.

Let me know what you think. I guess I've never really "dealt" with all of this. The portion germane to my old church starts at 03:05 into the first video and continues through the next two.

HqazJuKxa04

Yvh_XniD5SM

jKgeTRrXhMo

Sounds like you had a rough time growing up. Makes me appreciate my childhood a little more.

[JoeyDonuts]

What he did would be preferable to having those people all burned at the stake. You should be careful what you wish for.

Burning people at the stake doesn't profess to accomplish anything but kill a person through asphyxiation and burns.

That isn't a very good comparison.

I doubt that the people who wrote the Bible were intentionally being deceptive, in order to turn a profit in sales. I think those were just meant for their own enjoyment.

I never said they were. I think power is a much more believable motivator. Not even in the military/political sense either. There is tremendous, intoxicating power in believing that you're right and everyone else has got it wrong because they haven't been enlightened like you have, however you slice it. That feeling alone is motive enough for murder and lunacy and everything else worshipping a supreme being has brought us throughout the ages.

He decided to take him up on the offer and called for the presence of God to enter the church. Oops, big mistake. You really don't want God to actually show up, that is if you want to keep living. There were burnt out light bulbs that suddenly lit up and the people were not able to breath. (of course they could a little, but just enough to maintain consciousness)

That sounds like a panel from a Jack Chick comic book.

I don't believe a word of it, by the way.

He went to a nursing home to give communion and there was one who was in a coma. He called her name and she sat up and took communion from him. Three days later she died.

Association = Causation? I can certainly buy that she died three days later. I don't buy that it's a result of anything he did or invoked. Besides, so far you're claiming that invoking the presence of God causes property damage, respiratory arrest, and in other cases, death. This runs counter to experiences of other "believers" who describe the presence of God as warm, comforting. I don't believe them either, just pointing out dissention in your ranks.

If you want to launch an investigation, I could give you the names and places, if you trust witnesses.

Not only do I not have the time or inclination, I have a strong feeling you're about to present me with anecdotal evidence from individuals with a strong emotional vested interest in their stories being true. Sorry, but I don't buy that either.

Depends. In the case of this friend, he was worshipped like he was the Dalai Lama. He had to run away because he did not want that sort of thing. Jesus, at a lot of points in his ministry, had to get away from the crowds.

And you would have us believe that his "flock" came to him because the Holy Spirit moved and spoke through him? That he was merely the vessel for God's work? That he's a poor meager human who doesn't like having worship and adulation piled upon him because he's a conduit for YHWH?

Yeah, I don't buy that either.

[Ethnikos]

Burning people at the stake doesn't profess to accomplish anything but kill a person through asphyxiation and burns.

That isn't a very good comparison.You don't especially want the civil authorities involved in religion.
I never said they were. I think power is a much more believable motivator. Not even in the military/political sense either. There is tremendous, intoxicating power in believing that you're right and everyone else has got it wrong because they haven't been enlightened like you have, however you slice it. That feeling alone is motive enough for murder and lunacy and everything else worshipping a supreme being has brought us throughout the ages.Things get misapplied, after the original reason for the prophecy has passed.
That sounds like a panel from a Jack Chick comic book. I don't believe a word of it, by the way. He was not calling on Satan.
Association = Causation? I can certainly buy that she died three days later. I don't buy that it's a result of anything he did or invoked. Besides, so far you're claiming that invoking the presence of God causes property damage, respiratory arrest, and in other cases, death. This runs counter to experiences of other "believers" who describe the presence of God as warm, comforting. I don't believe them either, just pointing out dissension in your ranks.I was not there. I don't know why that would happen but maybe it is not such a good idea to command God or ask for things that God does not think the participants are not worthy of.
The thing about the woman in a coma, the idea is, I guess, that she was able to take communion before she died. She woke up long enough to do it, then went back to her coma state.
Not only do I not have the time or inclination, I have a strong feeling you're about to present me with anecdotal evidence from individuals with a strong emotional vested interest in their stories being true. Sorry, but I don't buy that either.There is probably a lot of things that happen that people are not motivated enough to check out.
And you would have us believe that his "flock" came to him because the Holy Spirit moved and spoke through him? That he was merely the vessel for God's work? That he's a poor meager human who doesn't like having worship and adulation piled upon him because he's a conduit for YHWH?

Yeah, I don't buy that either.He was just there in an ordinary capacity but as things happened he began to have a certain mystique about him that people were in awe of. He is not all that meager as far as capabilities goes. I believe he said that whatever he stated was what he personally believed and that it was just the most basic sort of things that all Christians should know. He did not go around making profound announcements that only he knew about. I think one of the main reasons he left was that he did not want people to use him to validate their own preconceptions about who God is exactly. He could just as easily tell someone that Allah is God and Mohamed is his prophet, as to tell you YHWH is God and Jesus is His son.

[JoeyDonuts]

You don't especially want the civil authorities involved in religion.

What if a certain public school district made it illegal to recite prayer on school property? Would you want the civil authorities to intervene to allow student-led religious gatherings on public property?

Things get misapplied, after the original reason for the prophecy has passed.

And who exactly judges when the reason for the prophecy has passed? You?

I was not there. I don't know why that would happen but maybe it is not such a good idea to command God or ask for things that God does not think the participants are not worthy of.

Maybe? Speculation. Your argument doesn't carry much weight.

The thing about the woman in a coma, the idea is, I guess, that she was able to take communion before she died. She woke up long enough to do it, then went back to her coma state.

Once again, anecdotal - and not an explanation that is necessarily supernatural in nature.

There is probably a lot of things that happen that people are not motivated enough to check out.

If God was truly omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent and deeply cared for each and every one of His children, I wouldn't have to "check out" anything. His presence would be everywhere and undeniable. These lifesaving intercessions would be happening every day all around the world. They would be miraculous, and unattributed to anything science could explain.

You're correct about me being unmotivated to research your tales. Based on your responses by way of defense, I find it highly unlikely that there's anything to them at all.

If your god does exist, he is not all-knowing, not all-powerful, and most certainly not-omniscient. Does he want people to believe in him? Why, then, is anecdotal evidence the only thing he is able to provide?

[A.A. Alfie]

If your god does exist, he is not all-knowing, not all-powerful, and most certainly not-omniscient. Does he want people to believe in him? Why, then, is anecdotal evidence the only thing he is able to provide?


I think that's why they call it "faith".

[JoeyDonuts]

I think that's why they call it "faith".

Yeah, I know.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
For we walk by faith, not by sight-

It is in that "faith" where you see the "wiggle room" required for abuses like the subject of this thread. The "hoped for," "not seen," portions...it's practically an invitation for you to make it up as you go along. After all, if you're claiming divine inspiration, your flock must have "faith" in you because they are commanded to do so.

It also is a really handy way to equip your followers with confirmation bias right off the bat.

[A.A. Alfie]

Faith. Noun.

1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.


Joey, I am sincerely sorry for any abuses that you may have been subjected to, observed or were forced to perpetrate.
I have some dealings with faiths and churches too however have no affiliations these days.
That said, I have witnessed many fantastic acts of faith, courage and service provided by those 'good' people of religion.
It is a sad fact too that many wrongs too have been perpetrated in the name of a God, often times lead by a cult or cult leader. This is sadly the nature of humanity -bad people will do bad things (simplistic I know but true enough).

The establishment of religious teachings were usually borne of the best of intentions; to teach citizens appropriate behaviour within any community in line with times in which they lived. Sadly, many of these teachings have been bastardised down through the centuries; (mis)applied in their original meaning, (mis)applied literally, misinterpreted, reinterpreted and/or applied in unhealthy manners.
There are fundamentalists, extremists and political opportunists that seek to exploit these teachings: Sadly, there are human beings involved; their personal failings, egos, money and power etc get in the way of what should be healthy principles for community living.

I know it might be difficult for you to accept in light of your personal experiences, but sweeping generalisations that "religion is evil" or similar are simply not true - by and large - within any religion.

[JoeyDonuts]

I know it might be difficult for you to accept in light of your personal experiences, but sweeping generalisations that "religion is evil" or similar are simply not true - by and large - within any religion.

Believe it or not, I agree with this.

Though I disagree in the strongest possible terms with the underlying premise of religion, and am convinced its foundations are incorrect, I am not blind to the good it can accomplish.

I am the only atheist in my family. Yet I do not berate my relatives, or refuse to associate with them based on matters of faith. We don't really talk about it, since we disagree...same is true of politics, abortion, or any other really hot-button issue where you find yourself on opposing sides of an argument. You agree to not discuss certain things to respect the other person's boundaries for the sake of the relationship.

And "faith" does have a plus that I can see. It can give someone in the depths of depression something to hold on to, to live for. However, a person in this position is extremely vulnerable.

I think the videos show what happens when a person's faith is used to twist and bind them into...whatever the hell that was.

[Ethnikos]

You're correct about me being unmotivated to research your tales. Based on your responses by way of defense, I find it highly unlikely that there's anything to them at all.Yes because it is based on second hand information that is very sketchy, meaning about the same amount of information that I mentioned, or less. You would have to interview the guy who was telling it to me. He was not trying to use these stories to prove god, but on the contrary, he was pointing out that a more generalised type of belief was all he had, despite the fact that he was operating within a Christian environment. And that even in those circumstances, whoever the actual real God is, He is able to do things around him, to the point that people were made to wonder.
If your god does exist, he is not all-knowing, not all-powerful, and most certainly not-omniscient. Does he want people to believe in him? Why, then, is anecdotal evidence the only thing he is able to provide?
That's the question, is there a specific identity of god that God would prefer to be known by? Should God be in Afghanistan, miraculously protecting Muslims from Predator Drone attacks? If He was, would that prove that the Muslims are right? Does the fact that God does not take sides, mean that He is not all-powerful?

[Fiona]

If he has an identity he would prefer to be known by then all he has to do is ask. Most people are polite about things like that. How dim does he have to be not to realise that?

[Ethnikos]

If he has an identity he would prefer to be known by then all he has to do is ask. Most people are polite about things like that. How dim does he have to be not to realise that?
Maybe God does not.
That kind of goes back to my first post on this thread. In the video, the pastor is saying something that sounds like, "In the name of mesh-ia yam-a-ma-shua." That's not right, but to an ordinary person, it might as well be that. Claiming to have god by knowing his name is magic, not religion.

[Pure Argent]

That's the question, is there a specific identity of god that God would prefer to be known by? Should God be in Afghanistan, miraculously protecting Muslims from Predator Drone attacks? If He was, would that prove that the Muslims are right? Does the fact that God does not take sides, mean that He is not all-powerful?

Straw man.

[Ethnikos]

Once again, anecdotal - and not an explanation that is necessarily supernatural in nature.
Does he want people to believe in him? Why, then, is anecdotal evidence the only thing he is able to provide?The person who told me this story about the woman in a coma was not too thrilled about how I made use of it in my posts on this thread. God does not want people chasing after miracles. So I need to retract my claim that it was in fact a miracle. It was not meant to be any sort of thing that we can use to prove anything about God. It was just something that happened, that had a significance to the woman. If she believed in Jesus, and was a Christian, it was nice for her to have someone show up and talk to her that made her think of Jesus. God would do something like that, in a very obscure setting where it would not get much attention. So as far as being some sort of "sign from God", it was only meant to be that for the one person.
Something like this could be going on in this church in the video. That God is actually doing something for these people, but in an obscure sort of way that could not be construed as a sign to anyone who it is not intended to be.

[JewishHeart]

My now ex-husband had us in this "church" for 15 years, I got out in 1996 when he went to prison. Who committed suicide?

[JustMe]

Hey Joey---Believe it or not I went to the same church! I totally agree with you about D Riggs. If you ended up counseling with the man---ouch! I bet you won't remember but maybe you should try b/c he is a wolf in sheep's clothing and I am so sorry you had to go through that along with your parents! May I plead with you not to let anything that you went through either with him or your parents though not turn you against God. I know you said you are an atheist but I just want to encourage you that at some point you may come to a realization that God can use what was meant as evil against you and turn it into good. Maybe right now you don't want or need to hear that but I don't believe you went through all that you did for naught. I am still suffering from post traumatic stress myself from dealing with the whole thing! He was quite the person to have to deal with. Hang in there Joey!

[JustMe]

The initials of the young person that did that is CW if that will help you.

[Maia]

The person who told me this story about the woman in a coma was not too thrilled about how I made use of it in my posts on this thread. God does not want people chasing after miracles. So I need to retract my claim that it was in fact a miracle.

Well, good, because IMHO it was an illustration of something that most people really know very little about (but need to know more.) Residents in nursing homes/long term care are not just one undifferentiated mass of pathology. They are still people with differing levels of abilities, which means constant ups and downs and ins and outs of varying amounts of consciousness and capacities to communicate. I'm not at all surprised that a woman who was supposedly in a persistent vegetative state (and who knows if the person who told you the story knew if this was even the correct diagnosis) had moments of wakefulness. Alzheimer's patients in even the most severe stages interact with their environments daily and hourly; I see it every day. Most of us simply don't see people who are old and demented and dying, and we don't know what they can do. But insufficient observation should not be taken as evidence of miracles.

[Ethnikos]

But insufficient observation should not be taken as evidence of miracles.I think miracle is the wrong term. It may be closer to a story that shows evidence of the existence, and action of, God, or a divine presence, in the world.
There was a purpose to his telling this story to me, but it seems that I am not doing a good job of passing that on.
I told the person about my posts, and he read them, and was not too happy with my re-telling. I asked him to register with this forum, hoping he may eventually clear this up. He posted on another thread, discussing the difference between magic, and prayer. I could ask him to discuss this with you and you are a person qualified to make some sort of assessment of the story, but not from me, sorry.

[SatanicSheep]

Sounds like a bad time man. I hope you can feel better.

[QUOTE=JoeyDonuts;5291592]

Legally, JoeyDonuts, I seem to recall only a licensed physician can diagnose and prescribe treatment for a medical condition.
It could be argued this 'pastor', by putting that arrant nonsense about deafness being caused by 'demons' on his webpage without a medical 'disclaimer' has crossed into the medical terrain.

It would be an interesting legal battle; however, realistically, I have to agree with Darth.
Put it behind you.
However, if you can't, maybe working with people caught in the meshes of this disgusting scam is an idea. Or blogging.

All the best to you, JoeyDonuts.

http://www.harvestwarriors.com/index.htm

I'd really like to see this beeyutch thrown in jail (instead of given awards...).

She's a doctor who battled demons with Demerol. I believe her medical liscense was revoked but she still puts the MD after name and sells books on how to combat Satan.

[pthena]

I see it every day. Most of us simply don't see people who are old and demented and dying, and we don't know what they can do. But insufficient observation should not be taken as evidence of miracles.
I spent four years after this incident caring for demented and dying people. She wasn't in my care at the time, so all I could go by was the shock exhibited by the staff there.

I just re-read the story on post #37. It does sound comic-bookesque.

[slingblade]

Yeah, well, I wasn't there, so as far as I know, nothing happened to anyone.

Sorry, that's why anecdotes aren't evidence.

[pthena]

Yeah, well, I wasn't there, so as far as I know, nothing happened to anyone.

Sorry, that's why anecdotes aren't evidence.
You nailed it exactly. I'd go so far as to say miracles are no proof that miracles can occur.;)

I'm just trying to get my post count up.

[Trent Wray]

Hi JoeyDonuts --- that's a horrible situation you were in imo.

I think a key to getting through such traumatizing things like that is to have a support network of people that will understand where you are at and that you TRUST. So many times, one of the chief problems with religion is that the believers think it is their duty and right to invade a person's boundaries and violate their mind and emotions uninvited, thus stealing something that wasn't theirs for the taking ---- your dignity and trust being one of those things. When it happens to a child it's so damaging, and it violates trust in a horrific way.

So I hope you find the support you need in those you trust. I have several friends who come from strictly religious backgrounds who have "escaped", and one of them in particular needed a time to make peace with his parents as well. Unfortunately, I still need to make peace with my parents, my mother in particular. I can say that I desire to have a different relationship level with her, and I have a desire for her to put aside some of her harmful beliefs ... as I want to be able to trust her.

But I can't yet. And the reality is I might not ever be able to trust her. And the simple reality for me is that keeping a distance from her is the most peaceful way we can exist, and she can still have her opinions and belief systems for herself. I have tried to "make peace" more times than I can count.

So I hope that if you do approach your parents, and they are unreceptive or you do not see the outcome you are looking for, you will not be disheartened. I hope you do see the outcome you are hoping for, but if not ... I hope you realize that you do not have to trust your parents. There is no "law" that says you must. Knowing this logically and emotionally are not always the same thing. It may or may not be a desire you have to have a certain level of relationship with them ... I don't know ... but you do not have to trust someone who isn't worthy of your trust. It doesn't matter who, or what, it is. So even if they do not change, please seek out an environment which deserves your trust ... whatever that means to YOU.

I think a key to "getting over" people who have violated you, like that church and it's preacher and practices, or your parents ..... is taking back what was taken from you. It's not vengeance on the perpetrators that always works and restores that, because what was taken from you through bullying you with ideas and beliefs was intrinsic, not external perhaps ..... rather it's restoring to yourself the value and right to choose whom you give your trust to, and what you want to believe for your ownself. At least this has helped me somewhat, although I'm still on my "journey" concerning making peace in many ways. But maybe something I've said will help.

I hope I didn't ramble :(

[JewishHeart]

That individual's mother & I have been good friends for 30 years; the death was not suicide but cardiac arrest due to years of drug abuse. It was not a deliberate suicide.

[JoeyDonuts]

I just checked this thread after a few months.

I probably should not have mentioned the example of the family whose son's life was ended through years of drug abuse. Further information vis-a-vis the identity of the people in question doesn't need to be posted here, or anywhere. Please, no more initials or amplifying information on victims of the church.

The whole purpose of this thread was to cast light onto the practices and abuses perpetrated by Pastor Doug Riggs, who the last I heard, is somewhere in New York state with a very small group of people who follow him. I don't know if he's still pushing fraudulent and abusive SRA therapy...he seems to have dropped off the radar aside from some pictures I've found of him meeting with visiting Chinese christians.

At any rate, right now it's sitting on page two of a Google search on his name, behind a lot of sites gushing over how brilliant he is.

[JustMe]

Yes Joey and sorry about the initials. I hope this man gets his just rewards which he and the others sadly still following him think will be great in heaven. He has abused all that he had under him including those that are still with him. The church had a split and most were going to leave and he spoke to several of the ones (mostly female) with his wife with no other members there and had them get to some more "memories" they needed to deal with and all of a sudden they decided to stay. Hmmmm interesting. He was great at having people cover him by coming up with some "false" memory so that way he could blame SRA on his own devious behaviors. Joey, I hope you are healing from whatever this creep did to you. Pastor isn't a title that should be on this man. Handler would be better. There are a lot of us out here that have been really messed with that were under him. Very clever disguise he has. You can find his ridiculous things on a website called The Byte Show.

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Thanks for sharing Joey.

There are going to be crazy people in this universe, that is unavoidable. But when the mentally unbalanced start convincing others to listen to them...that's a whole new can of not good.

[JoeyDonuts]

Yes Joey and sorry about the initials. I hope this man gets his just rewards which he and the others sadly still following him think will be great in heaven.

You know, I've spent a lot of time thinking about him and his whole ridiculous conspiracy theory stories about the Illuminati and "channeling power", the "Nephilim" and his whole shtick. Even applying a small amount of critical thinking towards these things reveals how ridiculous and false they are, and Riggs is by all accounts a rather intelligent individual, so I think sometimes that he must know these things aren't true and is simply using them as a manipulation - but when you listen to his discourse and his utter dedication, it's obvious that he believes its truth rather fervently. Intelligence does not save one from going down the rabbit hole of bizarre conspiracism, especially when one has a powerful motivator like people absolutely giving themselves over to you.

I don't think he's financially motivated, but ideologically and ego-based - much the same as David Koresh, Jim Jones, or Marshal Applewhite. He certainly shares quite a few attributes with them, like discouraging independent and critical thinking of his flock, and engendering absolute and complete control over nearly every aspect of their lives.

I still remember another person in the congregation who had a rather vivid tale of being an assassin in the Illuminati "royal bloodline." His story was and is, full of holes, and five minutes of objective questioning would reveal that he's an attention seeker - that found, in Doug Riggs and the Morningstar Church, an environment where his fantasy world would be unquestioningly accepted, and he'd be respected as someone who had "been there." His anecdotes would have been laughable and silly if it weren't for the fact they were used as absolute proof of a global satanic/Illuminati conspiracy that has the ability to shape world events, but is absolutely unable to silence the ravings of the man spilling the beans about their operation.

But mutally self-reinforcing fantasies are on the harmless end of the damage this man caused. There were many there that were in serious need of actual licensed psychiatric help and counseling, possibly even medication - and look at what they received instead.

In terms of legal liability, you couldn't hold Pastor Riggs responsible for the horrible things that happened under his nose any more than you could hold Doyle Davidson responsible for the horrific and sickening actions of Dena Schlosser. But that doesn't stop me from laying the blame squarely on his shoulders. He was given the trust and respect of multiple families, and he used it to fuel his sick fantasy world.

[Outrigger]

Joey Donuts - My heart goes out to you after reading about your experience with D. Riggs. I'm sorry to say that I've had my own bad experience with Doug, only for me the battle is still in progress. About three years ago he moved to our town in upstate New York and invaded our church. For about six months we didn't know anything was wrong but eventually his true nature was displayed. After that he left our church (at our request) but my son and daughter-in-law went with him. Now he's got them believing that she has an SRA background and that I am an agent of Satan so they shouldn't talk with me.

One way I've been fighting this is to try and find out as much about Doug as I can. I've been able to contact some of the people that were part of the Morningstar Church in Tulsa and it has been helpful to hear their stories. That's why I was so glad you made the effort to tell your story. I only wish I had stumbled upon it alot sooner.

I'm not sure where to go from here but I want you to know I'll be praying for you. I know that this experience has really run your faith through the ringer of testing and I know that you plus alot of other victims need healing. I think talking it out is a good thing to do. I saw that a few other victims responded to you online. Maybe we could start a recovery group like Alcoholics Anonymous. We could call it, "I've been Rigged."

Seriously though, I'd like to talk to as many people as possible. I'd love to be able to hand Doug a stack of letters from people who were hurt by his (please excuse the expression) "ministry." His followers here in Syracuse actually believe that the people in Tulsa had no hard feelings toward them.

This is the first time I've ever done one of these thread things but I think they're great. There are people out there who have offered some pretty good insight. Anyway, I hope you see this and I'd love to hear how you're doing.

[JoeyDonuts]

His followers here in Syracuse actually believe that the people in Tulsa had no hard feelings toward them.

Oh really? I'm not surprised he'd only present himself in such a manner.

Personally, if I ever see him again it'll take considerable self control not to throw the son of a bitch down a flight of stairs.

There is only one person from Tulsa that followed him that I'm aware of, and the story is horrific. You probably know who he is. I won't put his name out there, but he's a good example of what Mr. Riggs does to people. Destroy families, abuse, relocate, repeat.

You have my sympathy. It is reprehensible that he conned your family into following him. There's no easy way to say this...They are going to be hurt and abused mentally, emotionally, and possibly sexually by this man. It's going to happen. Riggs will insert himself between your son and your daughter-in-law. He will fracture their marriage like he's destroyed their relationship with you, and they will believe every single last word of what he says with as much fervor as anyone can believe anything.

Prayer's all well and good if that's what you choose to do. I appreciate the thought, but what your son and daughter-in-law need is a cult deprogrammer.

What I'm thinking of doing is starting a StopDougRiggs.com website similar to what some other members of this community have done for people like Sylvia Browne.

[Outrigger]

I think your idea of a website is great for two reasons. The first reason is that it will give some former victims a chance to share what's been on their minds for way too long and they will know that they have sympathetic ears. The second reason is because Doug needs a real dose of reality. I have to admit, though, that the "flight of stairs" scenario or something like that has crossed my mind from time to time.

Since I got involved in all of this my primary goal has been to get my kids out of it. The more I dig into Doug's past, though, the more I become aware that the damage goes way beyond my own two kids. It's been like walking through a battlefield the day after a battle and seeing all of the carnage.

I had thought of compiling a bunch of letters from victims that I could hand to Doug but I think a website would be even better because then people could hear each other's stories. My only problem is that my computer skills are somewhat limited. If you're serious about it, let me know and we can work out the details. I'll talk to some of the people I have been able to contact in Tulsa to get their input on the idea.

[JoeyDonuts]

I'm giving it some serious thought. If I did it, it wouldn't be anonymous - I would have my name and certain details out there for all the world to see. This would...attract attention and that may have adverse affects I can't really forsee. Some of the others here that have hosted such "Stop So-And-So" sites have made themselves the targets of harassment from both the subjects of the site and their followers.

I'm asking myself if that's something I'm willing to subject myself to.

The way I see the site, if I decide to go through with it, would be a sort of sounding board or a blog with which I could relate testimonials of those that have been abused by this man and his "ministry." I'd need help getting background information on the history of his church, how it got started, where it's been, where it's going, etc. The utmost care would have to be taken in order to protect the identities of those sharing testimonials.

I do think that something like this needs to be done, I'm just not sure if I want my identity attached to it. I suppose staying anonymous would be an option, and wouldn't really hurt the mission or impact of the site.

More to come later, perhaps.

[JoeyDonuts]

Website is online.

http://stopdougriggs.blogspot.com/

Also, I've established and e-mail address for folks to share their testimonials and additional information about Riggs:

stopdougriggs@gmail.com

I anticipate a heavy volume of hate mail from his supporters, which I will be re-printing. Should be amusing.

[blobru]

Website is online.

http://stopdougriggs.blogspot.com/

Also, I've established and e-mail address for folks to share their testimonials and additional information about Riggs:

stopdougriggs@gmail.com

I anticipate a heavy volume of hate mail from his supporters, which I will be re-printing. Should be amusing.


Great work, Joey. Those videos you linked to are terrifying -- classic brainwashing and exploitation of innocent followers. Doug Riggs is a lunatic. Imo, this is the perfect response, for all concerned.

[MikeSun5]

You do know that Lucifer is the morning star right?

;) You're right, it does refer to Lucifer (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%2014:12&version=NIV). Unfortunately, it also refers to Jesus (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=revelations%2022:16&version=NIV). Doesn't really make any sense, but neither does that crazy old man.

I think the best therapy would be a stiff right cross.

Of course, that would entail searching across the country so I could punch out what is now a 65+ year old man.

Actually, that doesn't bother me so much since I'd totally dropkick Andy Rooney if given the chance.

:D :D :D :D

[JoeyDonuts]

The website is going to be a little bit bare while I attempt to compile biographical information on Mr. Riggs.

I imagine some of his former victims have done this already. Hopefully they can share this information with me.

[Outrigger]

Things are moving fast I see.I really appreciate your dedication to the cause. I wanted to let you know that I talked to one of my contacts in Tulsa and filled him in on what's going on. He is supportive of the idea. He can also be a great resource on the history of Doug and he knows alot about how Morningstar got started.I told him to check out this website and that he might be able to figure out who you are in the real world and get in touch with you. He definatly knows who some of the people are who have been referred to in this thread.
Thanks again for getting the ball rolling.

[JoeyDonuts]

There's no reason to take things beyond the internet, really.

This is to be an informational resource to serve as both a counterpoint to the man's claims and a warning to those thinking of following him, or already there.

I'm not exactly anonymous on the internet, but at the same time I don't really advertise my identity; for good reason and doubly so if this site begins getting traffic. I expect to be threatened and harassed, actually.

All contacts with me vis-a-vis Doug Riggs' background, as well as sharing your stories and experiences of involvement with Morningstar Testimonial Church or whatever he's calling his congregation can be directed to the following email address:

stopdougriggs@gmail.com

Thanks.

[Outrigger]

With the website it should be easier to keep everything on the internet. I'll tell my contact in Tulsa to communicate only through the Gmail address and I will get as much current info. to you as I can the same way.

[JustMe]

Sounds like you found another contact in Tulsa. I am sure I have spoken to you on the phone. I don't know how the Riggs group found out it was me but I heard from him after that. Maybe your son-in-law, daughter told him? I didn't feel quite so safe after that. Hope things are better in your church setting since they are gone but I pray that they get out. The Holy Spirit is the One that broke into my delusion. Praise God! This is reply to Outrigger's comments.

[JustMe]

I never thought of the name you chose but LOL I just got it---OUT RIGGER!!! That is great! Not to make light of your family's situation because that is not a laughing matter at all! Will pray for your children. Someone needs to get to The Byte Show lady that has all his lies on. She seems like she is totally under his control too! Go to The Byte Show. The testimony that his wife wrote about him acting as a Pastor's pastor makes me want to vomit! He isn't accountable to anyone unless they agree with him so how could he be a pastor's pastor???? Again, please no offense to my comment about the Out-rigger name.

[dudalb]

I presume that Riggs is one of these "indepedent Pastors" who do not have to answer to a major denomination and therefore can do whatever the hell they want?

[JoeyDonuts]

I presume that Riggs is one of these "indepedent Pastors" who do not have to answer to a major denomination and therefore can do whatever the hell they want?

Correct, he doesn't belong to any denomination.

[David Henson]

This is an extremely difficult subject for me to bring up.

When I was a kid, my parents got involved with a church in the Tulsa area called Morningstar Church. I'd been involved in churches since I was very little, and they were all what you'd expect. Nice people, Sunday School programs, services over in time for football.

Not this one.

This one was led by a charismatic man by the name of Pastor Doug Riggs. The services typically took up about 4-5 hours on a Sunday afternoon, and several times throughout the week as well. The sermons, from what I recall, delved heavily into "spiritual warfare." This was at the height of the "Satanic Panic" some of you might recall, and this church/cult may as well have been ground zero. Despite having no formal psychological practice training, this man "diagnosed" the afflictions of his flock as being entirely the hand of Satan.

His sermons were little more than conspiracy-laden diatribes. I remember what I felt when my parents were attending this weekly marathons. A combination of boredom and fear when I was paying attention. I didn't understand most of what he said, but I too was rather mesmerized by him. And I was scared as hell. I didn't get to read Marvel Comics, or secular literature. I didn't get to listen to Depeche Mode like the friends I wasn't supposed to associate with. I couldn't even listen to *********** jazz. One time, my parents found a stack of Marvel superhero trading cards on me.

That earned me a counseling session with this man. I don't remember what happened, and I don't think I want to.

Pastor Doug Riggs was the subject of a documentary film some years ago called "In Satan's Name." My little brother found these clips. I almost threw up when I watched them. There isn't any "extreme" content, just some NSFW language from a person supposedly in the throes of demonic possession.

I'd like to hear the community's take on this guy. I don't know why, but seeing this videos again has got me depressed as all hell.

Let me know what you think. I guess I've never really "dealt" with all of this. The portion germane to my old church starts at 03:05 into the first video and continues through the next two.

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Wow!

I'm scrolling down the messages looking for a topic that interests me and I stop here. For no reason other than I have to eventually stop somewhere. My original thought was that you were a person who didn't like a particular snake oil salesman and you wanted others of a like mind's diatribe. Common spiritual fare, so I looked at your post number and am surprised to see 8,000 plus.

I didn't look at the videos. I didn't read responses to the OP.

But I get the sense you are not telling everything in the OP itself.

Just from your post I can see that there is some pretty heavy stuff. But you could be exaggerating it for effect.

It is a shame. Stupid people get screwed up in religious abominations (everything religious is an abomination) and drag their kids into it. Looking for what? Redemption?

Idiots.

[David Henson]

You do know that Lucifer is the morning star right?

Oh, really? I thought it was Nebuchadnezzar. Silly me.

People like you who screw up religious tradition, which is nonsense from the start, don't really fix anything, you know?

[David Henson]

Being a Tulsa native, and a former Pentecostal Fundie, I know too damned well how deeply this can mess a person up.

Joey, you have my sympathetic shoulder and my support. Those sicko bastards make me so angry. Sorry, hon.

You're kidding, right?

I mean, these guys are a joke! Their children are the ones who you gotta watch out for. They know what is going on. They know what side of the tracks reality abounds!

I mean! Feck! Their kids are not typically very bright and y'all didn't see this coming?

C'mon!

[JoeyDonuts]

I'm scrolling down the messages looking for a topic that interests me and I stop here. For no reason other than I have to eventually stop somewhere. My original thought was that you were a person who didn't like a particular snake oil salesman and you wanted others of a like mind's diatribe. Common spiritual fare, so I looked at your post number and am surprised to see 8,000 plus.

My post count is relevant why?

I didn't look at the videos. I didn't read responses to the OP.

Then you're in a great place to throw out comments.

But I get the sense you are not telling everything in the OP itself.

And where did you acquire this sense? You didn't watch the videos. You didn't read the responses to my OP. This gift of yours seems like a real time-saver.

Just from your post I can see that there is some pretty heavy stuff. But you could be exaggerating it for effect.

What "effect" do you think I'm going for?

It is a shame. Stupid people get screwed up in religious abominations (everything religious is an abomination) and drag their kids into it. Looking for what? Redemption?

For someone who, by their own admission, did not watch the videos you seem awfully quick to pass judgement on an issue you're admittedly ignorant of.

Idiots.

Thanks for your input. You've really done some good work here.

[DC]

Oh, really? I thought it was Nebuchadnezzar. Silly me.

People like you who screw up religious tradition, which is nonsense from the start, don't really fix anything, you know?

religious tradition is nonsence from the start? true that :)

[Outrigger]

Thanks for your reply. The fact that after all this time your response to Doug's call was fear shows the extent of the damage done during your time at morningstar. I want to encourage you not to be afraid," For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind." ne thing I have come to see is that there are alot of people out there who are willing to stand with you,
If you think you might have my phone number give me a call. I'd like to hear from you.

[JoeyDonuts]

Thanks for your reply. The fact that after all this time your response to Doug's call was fear shows the extent of the damage done during your time at morningstar. I want to encourage you not to be afraid," For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind." ne thing I have come to see is that there are alot of people out there who are willing to stand with you,
If you think you might have my phone number give me a call. I'd like to hear from you.

I think you might have a few things confused.

I was not contacted by Doug Riggs. This whole thing started when I stumbled onto YouTube videos of the old HBO documentary "In Satan's Name" that was shot at Morningstar Testimonial when I was about 12 or so.

And my reaction then was about like it was now. Not fear, but disgust and genuine anger at his manipulation of those people. I didn't truly appreciate what was happening back then. I was young, and didn't really have context to understand what was going on. I do now, and my poking around has revealed that he is most certainly "still at it." Doug holds no power over me, just like he holds no true power over anyone else that they themselves have not given him.

I don't know who you are personally, and with respect - I am not interested in conversing via telephone at this time, as I'd like to keep some degree of standoff between my identity and my research into this issue.

I'd actually prefer that this kind of correspondence went to the stopdougriggs@gmail.com address, if you wouldn't mind.

[JustMe]

I think you might have a few things confused.

I was not contacted by Doug Riggs. This whole thing started when I stumbled onto YouTube videos of the old HBO documentary "In Satan's Name" that was shot at Morningstar Testimonial when I was about 12 or so.

And my reaction then was about like it was now. Not fear, but disgust and genuine anger at his manipulation of those people. I didn't truly appreciate what was happening back then. I was young, and didn't really have context to understand what was going on. I do now, and my poking around has revealed that he is most certainly "still at it." Doug holds no power over me, just like he holds no true power over anyone else that they themselves have not given him.

I don't know who you are personally, and with respect - I am not interested in conversing via telephone at this time, as I'd like to keep some degree of standoff between my identity and my research into this issue.

I'd actually prefer that this kind of correspondence went to the stopdougriggs@gmail.com address, if you wouldn't mind.
Sounds like you found another contact in Tulsa. I am sure I have spoken to you on the phone. I don't know how the Riggs group found out it was me but I heard from him after that. Maybe your son-in-law, daughter told him? I didn't feel quite so safe after that. Hope things are better in your church setting since they are gone but I pray that they get out. The Holy Spirit is the One that broke into my delusion. Praise God! This is reply to Outrigger's comments.


Sorry Joey I believe this post was probably meant for me and my response to Outrigger regarding DR. He would be addressing my comments.

[JustMe]

To Outrigger: I probably had your phone number as I do believe we had a lengthy conversation over the phone. One other thing, DR emailed not phoned. I don't think he would have the nerve to call. I will check my old email files to see if I have your phone number there. I hope I cleared up that you were probably addressing me and not Joey Donuts.

[JustMe]

Quote:
Just from your post I can see that there is some pretty heavy stuff. But you could be exaggerating it for effect.


TRUST ME there is no exaggeration whatsoever in JD's post for any kind of effect. I applaud him for his courage to stand up against this criminal! He obviously moved to another state and is continuing his role as a divider of families per Outrigger's comments. He did it in one state and has moved on to another.

[Gaspode]

Some posts moved to AAH (http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=58).

Keep on topic please.

[MikeSun5]

I didn't look at the videos. I didn't read responses to the OP.

Then you're in a great place to throw out comments.

:D :D :D good stuff.

This Riggs guy reminds me a lot of David Koresh.

[JoeyDonuts]

To Outrigger: I probably had your phone number as I do believe we had a lengthy conversation over the phone. One other thing, DR emailed not phoned. I don't think he would have the nerve to call. I will check my old email files to see if I have your phone number there. I hope I cleared up that you were probably addressing me and not Joey Donuts.

No problem. Communication can be sketchy on threads at times.

I'll be putting the first posts up this weekend, and most likely focusing on debunking the notion of an "international Satanic conspiracy." Seems relevant since it's at the very crux of what Riggs pushes on people.

[JoeyDonuts]

Wow. Looks like I caught the attention of at least one proponent of SRA phenomena, who bombarded me with links to a Pastor Russ Dizdar.

I haven't yet gone through his writings in detail, but my first impressions of him is that he's sort of a fundie Christian version of Alex Jones.

Through this door be lunacy, methinks.

[JustMe]

Wow. Looks like I caught the attention of at least one proponent of SRA phenomena, who bombarded me with links to a Pastor Russ Dizdar.

I haven't yet gone through his writings in detail, but my first impressions of him is that he's sort of a fundie Christian version of Alex Jones.

Through this door be lunacy, methinks.
Sounds like something Doug Riggs or one of his followers would send to you.

[JoeyDonuts]

Sounds like something Doug Riggs or one of his followers would send to you.

It was. I know which one, too.

I checked out some of their links to this Dizdar guy. WOW.

It's not often you get so many varied kooky beliefs crammed into one person.

Well, actually, I take that back. Once you start believing in one conspiracy, you're pretty much game for all others. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to learn that Riggs and others in the SRA therapy crowd believe in 9/11 conspiracy theories, JFK assassination, moon landing, black helicopters, and all that other nonsense - they just attribute them to their chosen boogeymen.

You know, I was watching that CW series "Supernatural" the other day, about the two brothers who go around fighting demons that posess humans, controlled by secret societies, yada yada yada. The whole thing is pretty campy in a slightly-more-serious "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" kind of way. I was stricken with the epiphany that if Doug Riggs ever watched this show, he'd think he was watching a reality series.

[Kopji]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer

In English, "Lucifer" generally refers to Satan,
although the name is not applied to him in the New Testament.
The use of the name "Lucifer" in reference to a fallen angel stems from an interpretation of Isaiah 14:3–20, a passage that speaks of a particular Babylonian King, to whom it gives the title of "Day Star", "Morning Star" (in Latin, lucifer), as fallen or destined to fall from the heavens or sky. In 2 Peter 1:19 and elsewhere, the same Latin word lucifer is used to refer to the Morning Star, with no relation to the devil. However, in post-New Testament times the Latin word Lucifer has often been used as a name for the devil, both in religious writing and in fiction.

so enigma was correct
(sorry wiki, religious writing is fiction)
the videos are sad

Normal, intelligent people can compartmentalize their lives; it seems unfair to place vulnerable people in the category of idiots, but they are not innocent victims either. Instead of an STD they have an RTD (religion transmitted disease).

A challenge to believers is to come up with a religious version of a condom... :|

[Outrigger]

One day I'll figure out how to use this website, until then I'll just say this is for JoeyD.
I ran into Russ Dizdar as one of the many people DR recommended. Needless to say Russ is big into the whole SRA storyline.My biggest challange in all this is to separate fact from fiction.I,m beginning to see there"s alot more fiction than fact.
I'll send some stuff about DR's recent activity here in central NY via the websites email. Thanks again for setting that up.

[JoeyDonuts]

One day I'll figure out how to use this website, until then I'll just say this is for JoeyD.
I ran into Russ Dizdar as one of the many people DR recommended. Needless to say Russ is big into the whole SRA storyline.My biggest challange in all this is to separate fact from fiction.I,m beginning to see there"s alot more fiction than fact.
I'll send some stuff about DR's recent activity here in central NY via the websites email. Thanks again for setting that up.

Russ Dizdar is pretty interesting, and I think I see him for what he is.

He's making sure to include a copyright notice on his expose on how the New World Order is making advanced super soldiers through multi-generational child murder and sexual rituals designed to weaponize Satanic powers, whatever the hell that means.

Also, he's selling a book. What does that tell you? He's trying to make money off of this, and I believe he hasn't committed to it being intended as fact or fiction yet. I think if he ever gets publicly called out on it by a group like Cornerstone that nailed Mike Warnke, he's hedging his bets and he'll say it was all fiction (hence the copyright notice) and throw the SRA believers under the bus. Or he'll continue to sell them books because he's recognized a market segment that will believe nearly anything as long as it's wrapped up with the idea of SRA.

This is like Scientology-level bizarre.

[JoeyDonuts]

Hey!

My first "why are you doing this" email!

Excerpt:

"I would encourage you to look at whether this "stop Doug Riggs" motivation stems from a root of bitterness. If it indeed does, The Lord will not honor your desire, whether you are right in your desire for vindication or not. You do not have the authority to "stop Doug Riggs" only God does. Therefore you need to seriously be before Him asking if this intention of yours glorifies Him for if it does not, you are fighting a losing battle."

I'm so happy! *sniff*

[JustMe]

My goodness Joey! You don't have the authority to stop him. That sounds sooooooo familiar! Sounds like a programmed, brainwashed, follower of DR! Please pray for these poor souls that are under his "mind control". They have handed their brains over to him!

[JustMe]

Quote:
"I would encourage you to look at whether this "stop Doug Riggs" motivation stems from a root of bitterness. If it indeed does, The Lord will not honor your desire, whether you are right in your desire for vindication or not. You do not have the authority to "stop Doug Riggs" only God does. Therefore you need to seriously be before Him asking if this intention of yours glorifies Him for if it does not, you are fighting a losing battle."

Dear one whomever you are: I would like to respond to you that you seriously be before the Lord and ask Him if you are involved in a cult. The Lord does not operate the way Doug Riggs does although he will throw all kinds of Scripture out at you to keep you in control. Remember the Lord REALLY needs this man and for him to do all this work in his own flesh so Jesus Christ can come back. He really needs for people to be educated on how much EXPERIENCE this man has had and how he just has all this "special" insight that the rest of the Laodicean church just doesn't have. That is why he has no accountability to anyone but himself or to someone that doesn't know the whole history of Morningstar Testimony Church. You aren't going to hear it from him or his wife or his followers about how they hurt so many other people either through false accusations or manipulation or control. Dear one you will be prayed for that the Lord Jesus Christ Himself will release your mind unto Himself and not to what you have been programmed to believe. If you are a new person to his following, please be very very cautious and don't give your mind over to his ways but to the Way and the Truth and the Life Himself! Jesus Christ did not control His followers. You may think you are there by choice but you will be prayed for. If you are someone that has been with him for a long time you will also be prayed for that you will have your right mind returned to you! The one Jesus Christ gave you to own and think rationally and for yourself and to make good choices on your own! May He have his Great Mercy upon you!

[JoeyDonuts]

Just a suggestion...your rebuttal probably won't be seen here.

Post it as a comment on the StopDougRiggs blog.

[JoeyDonuts]

My goodness Joey! You don't have the authority to stop him. That sounds sooooooo familiar! Sounds like a programmed, brainwashed, follower of DR! Please pray for these poor souls that are under his "mind control". They have handed their brains over to him!

Just throwing this out there - I don't pray. I take action, hence the website.

[MikeSun5]

My first "why are you doing this" email!

NICE! You know that email's simply proof that you're doing it correctly. :D

[JoeyDonuts]

Holy crap. My site is going to wind up turning into a lightning rod for all kinds of mind control conspiracies. I've been deluged with all kinds of links, and doing my best to rebut them one at a time.

Not this weekend though.

I threw together a history of CIA mind control experimentation and called it a night.

[MikeSun5]

I've been deluged with all kinds of links, and doing my best to rebut them one at a time.

"That's what friends are fooooooorrrr...."

I'm sure you can find some folks on here willing to do some rebutting for you. Some have already started! :p

[JoeyDonuts]

Well, truth be told, everything I've been presented with has already been debunked elsewhere as far as the general conspiracy theories.

I still need to finish reading Dizdar's book. I'm not terribly enthusiastic - it's atrocious.

Plus, I've also gotten a lot of information forwarded to me written by PhD's that support the idea of Satanic Ritual Abuse...none of them in peer-reviewed journals, which is pretty telling.

[JustMe]

Joey don't let it throw you off track of your goal of showing the hypocrisy of Doug Riggs and his title of pastor and his abusive counseling towards people that have gone to him for help. That may be why you are being bombarded to get you off track. Just a thought




Holy crap. My site is going to wind up turning into a lightning rod for all kinds of mind control conspiracies. I've been deluged with all kinds of links, and doing my best to rebut them one at a time.

Not this weekend though.

I threw together a history of CIA mind control experimentation and called it a night.

[JewishHeart]

As a victim of Doug Riggs and the MST, I made the decision to let God handle him. God will in His time and His way. I am focusing on the healing of myself and children (my marriage ended in divorce by the way, and my ex is serving a 35 year prison sentence for molesting our oldest daughter). I was so afraid of being a "Jezebel", any woman in that group who questioned either her husband or DR was accused of having the spirit of Jezebel. If there were problems in a marriage it was always the wife's fault, not being submissive enough, etc. One thing I am very curious about however is what is the real reason that the group left the church in Syracuse that they moved up to New York to be a part of? My youngest child (now an adult) does not remember their father or much about MST which is probably why he is the most normal and is serving the Lord. It is better not to have an earthly father than to have one who is a hypocrite. Also I moved from Tulsa to a place where nobody knows my ex. I have spoken at a university at the Deviant Religious Movements course that uses the documentary in the classroom. Also I returned to Judaism, and am with a messianic synagogue that is part of an international group that has a system of accountability. Anyone who ever disagreed with DR was immediately on his @#%&* list and was accused of being a satanist, etc. I do pray for the families that were ripped apart and apparently still happening. God is all powerful not satan! God has not given the spirit of fear but of power & love and a sound mind!

[JustMe]

Jewish Heart--so thrilled to hear you got out. The Riggs group was asked to leave the church they were at in Syracuse NY b/c 2 of the girls in his group reported some of the people in the church were involved in Satanic rituals. The group left with one couple following them b/c they convinced her she had this background. I have been in touch with the father of the husband of the couple that left w/ the group. Mr Riggs is up to his usual no good! I am sure you wouldn't want to hear his latest but if you do go to the Byte Show and you can hear him plus the group talk about their nephilim sons. It is sad to hear that you are still suffering from maybe PTSD from being in that group. I think Joey Donuts is doing an excellent job on his stopdougriggs website!

[JoeyDonuts]

I am sure you wouldn't want to hear his latest but if you do go to the Byte Show and you can hear him plus the group talk about their nephilim sons.

Given what I know about one of the members and his sons, that literally makes me want to vomit in disgust.

[Soapy Sam]

Nonsense like this makes me appreciate (not for the first time) how lucky I was in my parents.

[JewishHeart]

I know all too well this so called "church". My now ex-husband followed him (I think he still does from his prison cell) and the group started meeting in our home. Thankfully (although after too many years) I managed to escape along with 7 of my children. I left Tulsa to start a new life, and feel I have finally recovered. I am now have been in a very spiritually healthy situation for going on eleven years. My children have serious scars but are recovering. Also after being pounded with the scripture "wives submit yourselves to your husbands" I came to my senses when I realized that part of that verse had been omitted. "Wives, submit yourselves to your husbands, as to the Lord"I know now that the Lord does not abuse women, molest children, etc.

[Outrigger]

This is a response to Jewish Heart's last entry. I first of all wanted to thank you for sharing your story. I think the more people that do this the more clearly others will see what DR is really all about. As you know Doug and his remnant moved from Tulsa to Syracuse a few years ago. I am an elder in the church they first attended here. They were with us for about six months before we came to realize what they were all about and we asked them to leave. They tried to infiltrate another church after that but we found out and warned the pastor. Since then they have been meeting in their own homes. Unfortunately my son and daughter-in-law have gotten caught up with them and their delusions.
Thats just a brief update from syracuse but I also wanted you to know our prayers are with you along with all the other victims of morningstar. I believe in the power of prayer as you do and I also greatly appreciate the efforts of our nonpraying men of action like Joeydonut who has done more research and gained more insight in the last month than I have in the past two years. Go get em Joey.
Anyway I will pray for this website that it will be a vehicle for the truth.

[JoeyDonuts]

I've reposted excerpts from some of your stories on the blog.

I'll be reformatting it in the future to make it more like an informational resource and less like a blog.

[JewishHeart]

He answers to no body but himself.

[JewishHeart]

I pray that your daughter and her husband have no children! A good friend of mine (whose ex-husband moved to Syracuse with the MST group) and I were curious as to what happened. I think according to them that Doug was invited by your church and then he left when he said the church was in denial/deception or some ilk like that. Also Riggs can twist scriptures to fit his agenda like nobody else I have ever encountered. When at a Friday evening prayer and I questioned him about going to a single woman's home alone to "counsel" her and quoted the scripture that as believers we should avoid even the appearance of evil, he shot back with the scriptures about David and his soldiers eating the showbread in temple and it was not theirs to eat. Needless to say I never went back.

[JewishHeart]

I am doing well, I left in 1996 and moved out of that city and returned to Judaism, my spiritual roots. My older children are my greatest concern. Fortunately my youngest does not remember him or their father & is doing well.

[JewishHeart]

I can no longer find the StopDougRiggs website, have you taken it down?

[JustMe]

I can no longer find the StopDougRiggs website, have you taken it down?

I found that it is still up. Thank God!!! So glad Joey had the courage to take this on.

[JewishHeart]

I have tried a number of different search engines and different computers and still cannot find it. I have been to it before.

[JoeyDonuts]

It's probably not getting enough total search traffic to put it to the top of that particular search string.

Just bookmark this link:

http://stopdougriggs.blogspot.com/

[JustMe]

Will there be any additions soon to the website? Curious. Thanks.

[JoeyDonuts]

I've been pretty busy lately, and the Riggs/SRA fan club has been silent for weeks. I'll try to get something up, but right now I'm more concerned with redesigning it so it's less like a blog. That'll require a free weekend, which I don't get much of.

[JustMe]

Hey Joey--just wondering. I have noticed things have been quiet. Summer probably has something to do with that for a lot of people. That man is actually becoming smaller and smaller in my mind which is a good thing as in the grand scheme of things he is a small person who I allowed to become too big in my life! Hang in there and enjoy your weekends when you get them :)

[JoeyDonuts]

UPDATE: Well, I knew it would only be a matter of time until Mr. Riggs himself responded. He's done his homework and figured out my identity. It couldn't have been too hard. I'm not exactly anonymous on the internet.

As far as the site goes, I won't be doing much to it at all. I'm going back to school and won't have any time to update the site that much or correspond with Mr. Riggs, so I'm probably just going to leave up some links to the Skeptic's Dictionary entries on Satanic Ritual Abuse and Recovered Memory Syndrome which do a far better job of debunking nearly everything Riggs claims. The rest is his very literal interpretation of Scripture, which I'm not interested in refuting.

Here's the first email I got from him:


Hi Grant,

I trust this finds you doing well in your work to "Stop Doug Riggs" This web site should give you all that you need to help you in your efforts.

Blessings, Doug Riggs Isa. 54:17
http://www.thebyteshow.com/DouglasRiggs.html

Note the reference to his "fan page" over at the Byte show. I already knew about this place. A lot of stuff over there.

My response:


Mr. Riggs,

I appreciate the information provided. ******* (name removed) has already provided me with many of those links. In postings to come, I will do my level best to explain to anyone reading the website why the claims of SRA and New World Order conspiracy are neither rational nor compelling, and therefore must be disregarded as fanciful delusions.

On that note, I feel I should clarify something with you. Were the scope of your activities limited to simply your own interpretation of scripture and dogmatic concerns with reference to how you choose to execute your self-appointed duties as a pastor, including the subjugation of the woman to the supposed authority of the man, the StopDougRiggs website would not exist. Quite frankly, I don't care about your Scriptural interpretations, as they are no more inherently valid or "correct" than an Episcopalian's or a Roman Catholic priest.

What I do take issue with is what I have determined to be a decades-long pattern of passing yourself off as a mental health professional, and your usage of recovered memory techniques. I believe you are guiding and implanting your delusions and fantasies into the minds of your flock when they are in a suggestive state. There have also been allegations of impropriety on your behalf, but circumstantial at best, so I won't be posting about that. What is most disturbing is the degree to which you fracture families by encouraging children to break away from their parents and drive a wedge between husbands and wives. You've left quite a long trail of broken and grieving families behind you, and you've been under the radar for far too long. The documentary did a great job of showing you for the dangerous egomaniac I believe you to be, which is why I've linked to it.

I'm going to continue using the resources at my disposal to systematically tear down the fanciful conspiracy theories you impress upon your followers, but in all honesty I don't expect my efforts to have any effect on you or your "inner circle." You are all so collectively far down the rabbit hole of your own self-important and self-reinforcing fantasies that you will reject any scientific or historically sourced refutation of your beliefs out of hand; or more likely inflate the idea of your world-spanning conspiracy to include the originators of the information provided.

You are welcome to continue sending me information, and in due time I will do my best to go through it, but I don't expect much in the way of compelling information. In the time I've spent so far going through the so-called "proof" of an SRA conspiracy, I have found very, very little evidence and an awful lot of anecdotes and revisionist history. If you are going to convince both me, a skeptic, and the readers of my blog, which I know include both current and former members of your cult, you're going to have to do a lot better than Russ Dizdar and Project Monarch.

One more thing. You and I are not on a first-name basis.

Regards,

Grant *********

P.S. - I'll leave you with this one, simple question. You have been "spreading the word" about an impending world-spanning Satanic conspiracy to install the Antichrist as the head of the New World Order for many years now, a conspiracy that has the social engineering, infiltration, and technical ability to sacrifice thousands of children without leaving a shred of forensic evidence, commit untold atrocities the world over, and pull the strings of world events from the shadows. I found your current address and detailed writings and current photograph using 10 minutes of open-source Googling with no special resources whatsoever.

Why are you still alive?

[JoeyDonuts]

It didn't take long to get a response.


Dear Grant,

Still using my first name, like we're buddies. :mad:

Thanks for you reply. Just so you know, I have never claimed to be a mental health professional.

If one were to apply your criteria and measurement of the existence of SRA/DID or world conspiracy as it is defined in the Word of God (Psa. 2; 31:4,13,20, 33:10-11; 37:12-15; 41:7; 64:1-6; 83; 140:1-5; Prov. 19:21; 21:30; [in the life of Jesus Christ: Matt. 12:14; 26:4; Mk. 14:1; Lk. 22:2 and in the life of the Apostle Paul Acts 23: 12-13] Rev. 16:12-16; 19:19; Rev. 20:7-10 [the references in Revelation are global Satanic conspiracies]) to the existence of God, the creation of the universe, the new birth experience or any other faith-based conviction, it would certainly fail to meet your empirical standards of evidence (Heb. 11:1-3;6 w/ Matt. 18:16; 2Cor. 13:1).

I would add that for you, or anyone else for that matter, to presume that I have the power to determine ones' history and reality (which assumes that everyone I have worked with who are SRA/DID are either mentally incompetent or deceived) clearly demonstrates either your own ignorance and personal bias or arrogance of what these courageous saints have experienced. You or any of my critics do not qualify to speak for those who, by the grace and mercy of God, have recovered their lives from a living hell that they were living in years before they met me.


Bolding mine. Note the usage of the term "saints" in reference to his core group of SRA "survivors" that have been following him for years, even relocating across the country. I'm not sure exactly what he means by this, but this is the first instance I've ever seen a pastor using this specific term towards his "flock."

I will forward you the most recent article I wrote which defines the reliability of what you refer to as "recovered memories". This is a misnomer; traumatic memories that accompany trauma-based-mind-control are dissociated memories.

As for the rest of your charges against me and what I do, I rest every judgment by you or any other critic with the God that I serve (Isa. 54:17; 1Cor. 4:1-5; 2Cor. 6:1-10)

The reason I am still alive is simple: the length of my time on this earth as well as that of every believer in the Lord Jesus Christ is not determined by ones' enemies but by God Himself (Job. 14:5; Psa. 139:16; 2 Tim. 4:6-8). Furthermore, I have implicit trust in the God who protects those who love Him and know His Name (Psa. 91 w/ Prov. 18:10).

As for those who have personal issues with me or who claim some personal or emotional offence committed by me against them then why has no one attempted to reconcile these matters according to the Word of God? The few who have such complaints remain anonymous which does not conform to Biblical standards for reconciliation,fellowship or forgiveness ( Matt.5:23-24 w/ Eph. 4:31-32 w/ Col. 3:12-17 w/ 1John 1:5-7). Your web site "Stop Doug Riggs" does not even meet pagan standards of integrity in addressing the charges you and others have against me (Acts 25:16).

If you do chose to use this correspondence in future postings on your web site I request that you cite this email in its entirety and ALL the scripture references used in my response to you.

Maranatha,
Doug

And there you have it. Nearly every refutation a Scriptural reference. He's also linked me to some psychiatric studies, which when read in full, don't really support his claims as much as he believes.

My response:


Mr. Riggs,
You've cited the DSM-IV in reference to your "therapy." You may not advertise your "therapy" in the phone book, but you throw around clinical reference terms as if you were a mental health professional. That allows you to wrap your delusions in a sheen of imparted legitimacy.

There is no compelling psychological evidence for the phenomena of dissociated memories. The man who proposed the theory in the first place isn't even allowed to practice mental health anymore. I suppose "THEY" got to him. Is that how you would rationalize it?

There is greater evidence that extended "memory recovery" therapy sessions such as undertaken by Pazder in "Michelle Remembers" often results in the subject becoming utterly convinced of something that never happened.

As to your defiance of this intergenerational conspiracy of world-controlling Satanists, and their inability to silence you, how have you rationalized away that possibility? Do you believe that they are frightened of you? That your spiritual warfare offers you some kind of protection against these people?

The people who have shared their stories are not anonymous. You know who they are. You've told them they were infested with the "spirit of Jezebel" for daring to assert themselves as equals in their relationships, or not blindly following your every proclamation. But then again, this has never been about a desire to actually help anyone for you, has it? After all, the best snake oil salesmen in the world lure their prey by convincing them they have something seriously wrong with them they didn't even know about.

I don't know if any of the people you've treated came from a background of actual abuse. I'd consider it likely, but after a few sessions with you they're chasing ghosts and shadows rather than seeing the root of the problem which is earthly, human, and infinitely more sinister than your pretend cabal of Illuminati.

Do not expect much in the way of a back-and-forth between us. You're a Biblical literalist, and therefore any effort to dissuade you from your interpretation with scientific and empirical data will be dismissed out of hand. I have little to gain from engaging you directly. However, if even one of the people currently following you see my efforts and it causes them to shake the wool from their eyes just long enough to think for themselves, then it will all be worth it.

I repeat what I said about us not being on a first-name basis. My friends and family call me by my first name. You are neither.

-Grant **********

As you can see, I'm getting a little bit testy.

[JoeyDonuts]

His latest responses:

My reply to your P.S. The attachment gives clear DOCUMENTATION that I am not alone in what you define as "delusions". If you eliminate the "prophetic" references there is a plethora of evidence we are heading for major catastrophic events in this nation as well as globally.
Doug

He then linked to a .pdf full of predictions for 2010. Guess who's on it? Our old buddy Lyndon LaRouche. A few Alex Jones regulars as well.

If I can figure out a public-sharing option for the PDF I'll share it.

ETA: Here it is. WARNINGS for 2010 (https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=1gJU2PwBM_RoRxTZ30zyEYnAouzjwXSqw5hAM-XKkX-Ecr-zn_YcWbp1metjI&hl=en)

And then this one:

You stated:
There is no compelling psychological evidence for the phenomena of dissociated memories.
Since you are not a mental health professional you are not qualified to even know what "compelling evidence" is.
Dr. Philip Coons M. D. is representative of hundreds of mental health professionals who are competant to correct your gross ignorance of this phenomenon.
Child Abuse And Multiple Personality Disorder
http://www.healthyplace.com/abuse/wermany/child-abuse-and-multiple-personality-disorder/menu-id-846/
You also stated:
The man who proposed the theory in the first place isn't even allowed to practice mental health anymore.
Again, you are incorrect and demonstrate your ignorance in your above statement and therefore not a competent historian regarding the facts of the history of the recognition and treatment this disorder.
A History of Dissociative Identity Disorder
(formerly called Multiple Personality Disorder)
http://www.fortea.us/english/psiquiatria/history.htm
http://www.trauma-pages.com/a/vdhart-89.php
The links below will help educate you on the reality and specificity of what myself, and hundreds of other biblical counselors and mental health professionals have documented regarding the reality of both SRA/DID, trauma-based-mind-control and trauma related disorders. Before making any further disclosures of your ignorance I have provided you with these links assuming you have the integrity to pursue the truth!
Not that it matters to you but it is obvious you do not have a living relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ who came both bring salvation to you and the heal the brokenhearted Isa. 63:1-3. There are those who are praying for your salvation which can only come through Jesus Christ. Acts 4:12; John 14:6
Maranatha, Doug

What followed was a veritable cornucopia of links supporting his position. Or so he thinks. I'd post them here, but it'd look an awful lot like Spamming. Off hand, most of them appear to be of the anecdotal "Michelle Remembers" variety. Survivor stories and such.

[JoeyDonuts]

I should clarify - the psychiatrist to whom I was referring is the disgraced Dr. Bennett Braun (http://www.rickross.com/reference/satanism/satanism61.html), whose license to practice was suspended.

ETA: I have invited Mr. Riggs to this thread. I've advised him of the policies of this site towards link-bombing and "spamming." Also, to the other former members of his church - I'd ask you to use restraint and to not let your emotions run wild with your posting.

I'd like him to demonstrate that his therapy techniques are valid, that there is an intergenerational Satanic Ritual Abuse conspiracy to install the Antichrist as the head of the New World Order, and that what he's doing is actually helping his congregation.

[Toke]

You are showing remarkable restraint, but I can see it is taking it's toll on you
http://forums.randi.org/customavatars/avatar27569_17.gif

:)

[JoeyDonuts]

I need a second alter to deal with everything going on. So, I learned how to pull off instantaneous full-body mitosis.

[JoeyDonuts]

Riggs has responded to my invitation with the following:

"I am doing a great work and I cannot come down. Why should the work stop while I leave it and come down to you?" Nehemiah 6:3

Arrogance, evasion, and cowardice all noted in full, Mr. Riggs.

It's only a matter of time before those around you notice it as well.

[JustMe]

Exactly! You should read his threads but he is too busy doing God's work to read yours. I agree with your sentiment! Arrogance, arrogance and more arrogance! Oh and deception also!!!

[JustMe]

http://www.thebyteshow.com/DouglasRiggs.html
Interesting that in his so called "bio" they leave out a LOT of truth. Like how about he was married before and he has been quite estranged from his own children. It seems they like to polish things up quite a bit to keep up the holier than thou facade. How about they sadly made mistakes "We have had many battles and victories; and sadly, we have sinned against our Lord and His Body due to our pride and immaturity. We praise Him for His mercy and grace, as well as His commitment to His people’s restoration and maturity in Christ. We trust Him daily to complete that which He began in His sovereign grace and mercy." This is their excerpt from the byte show. If you were prideful and immature why have you not asked forgiveness from those that have been under your influence in YOUR church that no longer follow YOU? Why is he so defensive unless you believe in HIS methods? Because a small handful of people are still with him and STILL in need of his counseling after HOW MANY YEARS??? He has said many a time to people, are you aware of how many people I have worked with? What is this "work" anyway? Define your "counseling" as you have used that word all the time? Sounds like a good reference to claiming mental health counseling. He may say it is spiritual and I agree but not HOLY!!! How many people from YOUR church would kind of chuckle as to what the part/alter personality of the week you had to go and find b/c if so and so has it so does the rest of you (mostly women by the way)? Why were some (women mostly) told to find a spirit in them and then come and tell him about it or maybe they couldn't have fellowship? Sounds like a set up of fear and manipulation; something Jesus Christ WOULD NEVER DO!!!