Italy school crucifixes 'barred'

[boyntonstu]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8340411.stm

Italy school crucifixes 'barred'

The European Court of Human Rights has ruled against the use of crucifixes in classrooms in Italy.

It said the practice violated the right of parents to educate their children as they saw fit, and ran counter to the child's right to freedom of religion.

Mama Mia!

Here come the Vampires!

[IMST]

Good decision. From the article:
Education Minister Mariastella Gelmini said the crucifix was a "symbol of our tradition", and not a mark of Catholicism.
Scalia level ************.
The law requiring crucifixes to be hung in schools dates back to the 1920s.
Italy's old. 1920's for them kinda destroys the previous argument, doesn't it?

[headscratcher4]

Italy's old. 1920's for them kinda destroys the previous argument, doesn't it?\

Yes...meaning it was a law promulgated and enforced by the Fascists. Just think how the reaction above would have been if the headline had read: "European Court of Human Rights Overturns Italian Fascist-Era Rules on Religious Symbols in Schools"

[ponderingturtle]

Good decision. From the article:

Scalia level ************.

Italy's old. 1920's for them kinda destroys the previous argument, doesn't it?

That is only the most recent. See it originates back in the time of Imperial Rome, they found one of the most effective ways to motivate students was to crucify the lowest performing students.

So these orrigionaly surved a practical secular purpose.

[IMST]

That is only the most recent. See it originates back in the time of Imperial Rome, they found one of the most effective ways to motivate students was to crucify the lowest performing students.

So these orrigionaly surved a practical secular purpose.

:D I withdraw my objection to the original law.

[AvalonXQ]

That is only the most recent. See it originates back in the time of Imperial Rome, they found one of the most effective ways to motivate students was to crucify the lowest performing students.

So these orrigionaly surved a practical secular purpose.

If we brought this practice back, could we keep the crosses?

[Piscivore]

That is only the most recent. See it originates back in the time of Imperial Rome, they found one of the most effective ways to motivate students was to crucify the lowest performing students.

That practice was originally instituted by Glengarrius Glenrossus, wasn't it?

[headscratcher4]

That practice was originally instituted by Glengarrius Glenrossus, wasn't it?

First prize: new chariot.
Second prize: Steak knives
Third prize: crucifiction.

Good motivator.

[Madalch]

I thought it was the Eastern Orthodox folk that had barred crosses.

[geni]

Italy's old. 1920's for them kinda destroys the previous argument, doesn't it?

Italy is currently less than 150 years old.

[GreyICE]

How do they have a law dating back to the 1920s? Haven't they had like 40-50 governments since then?

[brodski]

Italy's old. 1920's for them kinda destroys the previous argument, doesn't it?

Italy isn't that old, the USA is older- almost a century older in fact.

[wattie187]

I really don't think any religious trinkets should be brought into school, are there any that absolutely have to be worn to fullfill a religious need i.e. you will burn for all eternity if you do not wear this.

I also have an issue with Religious Education in school from the point of view that in my school they concentrated on one religion, so it really should have been called Christian Education. If they are going to teach religion in school they should teach all forms not just one.

[Hux]

I wonder if there is any coincidence that Christopher Lee has just been Knighted?

[Dysphemist]

I
I also have an issue with Religious Education in school from the point of view that in my school they concentrated on one religion, so it really should have been called Christian Education. If they are going to teach religion in school they should teach all forms not just one.

We learnt about numerous religions - year 11/12 Australia. Aboriginal spirituality/Dreaming, Islam and Christianity, and a bit on the other 3 major religions. I went to a Catholic school and the things we learnt on Christianity were not presented as dogma.

It also restricted the "right of children to believe or not to believe", the seven judges ruling on the case said in a statement quoted by AFP news agency.
I don't understand this. Crosses hung in every classroom of our school for 6 years - I wasn't brainwashed, nor were any of my atheist classmates.

[ponderingturtle]

We learnt about numerous religions - year 11/12 Australia. Aboriginal spirituality/Dreaming, Islam and Christianity, and a bit on the other 3 major religions. I went to a Catholic school and the things we learnt on Christianity were not presented as dogma.


I don't understand this. Crosses hung in every classroom of our school for 6 years - I wasn't brainwashed, nor were any of my atheist classmates.

Did this happen to be the catholic school you mention above by any chance?

[AvalonXQ]

We learnt about numerous religions - year 11/12 Australia. Aboriginal spirituality/Dreaming, Islam and Christianity, and a bit on the other 3 major religions.

What are the "other 3 major religions"? Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism?

[cwalner]

We learnt about numerous religions - year 11/12 Australia. Aboriginal spirituality/Dreaming, Islam and Christianity, and a bit on the other 3 major religions. I went to a Catholic school and the things we learnt on Christianity were not presented as dogma.


Considering what you 'learnt' about grammar, I will remain skeptical about any claims regarding the high quality of your education.

[cwalner]

I really don't think any religious trinkets should be brought into school, are there any that absolutely have to be worn to fullfill a religious need i.e. you will burn for all eternity if you do not wear this.


1) I disagree with you here. I have no problem with students wearing religiously themed jewelry to public schools, but that is another discussion

2) that has absolutely nothing to do with the article or the OP. What was struck down was an Italian law requiring public school classrooms to display a crucifix

[AvalonXQ]

Considering what you 'learnt' about grammar, I will remain skeptical about any claims regarding the high quality of your education.

You do realize that "learnt" is a proper alternate form of "learned" more common in British English?
So apparently you've decided his English is deficient because it's insufficiently Americanized for you.

[cwalner]

You do realize that "learnt" is a proper alternate form of "learned" more common in British English?
So apparently you've decided his English is deficient because it's insufficiently Americanized for you.

No I did not realize that and have never seen any other British or Australian poster here ever use it before

[IMST]

I blame my US education on my ignorance about Italy's age. I thought that designation was quite a bit older. Time to crack a history book. Or wikipedia article.

[AvalonXQ]

No I did not realize that and have never seen any other British or Australian poster here ever use it before

A quick search shows that it has appeared in 275 threads on the JREF forum.
When dealing with an international group, it may be wise to do a quick Google search on a word before accusing someone of misspelling or misusing it.

[Last of the Fraggles]

While I don't disagree with the judgement its good to know that Europe is now at the point where the most important infringement of human rights on the continent is having a cross in your school room.

[Dysphemist]

Did this happen to be the catholic school you mention above by any chance?

Yes. I'd say that by our last year in school the majority of students were atheist, or at least agnostic.

What are the "other 3 major religions"? Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism?

Those three we just learnt (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/learnt) about the basics of the beliefs - important texts, primary teachings on ethics, and such. Christianity and Islam we did more in depth: more on history, practices, how ethics affect the lives of the adherents.

Although I went to a Catholic school, and we have to take Studies of Religion as a subject in later years, I would recommend the course to any state school students. If religion is presented objectively in school it can be a very valuable subject, imo. I don't know if they have the opportunity for students to do this kind of course in the US though.

[Hux]

While I don't disagree with the judgement its good to know that Europe is now at the point where the most important infringement of human rights on the continent is having a cross in your school room.


I dont think it has quite that importance but the euro court of Human rights think they can get away with this without the halitosis hordes of Muzzies jumping up and down. By establishing this, it gives them more leverage against Muzzie sensibilities. They can say, you cant wear a Hijab just as there are no crucifix's in classrooms.

Saw a news item on this last night (admittedly on Fox Noise) and it showed an Italian classroom (Maths I believe on the blackboard) and there above, this huge great Elephant in the room - a crucifix. It looked imperious and -well lets say it - offensive. I'm offended by any religious trinketry, plaster dolls etc. I think that if these are taken out of sight, perhaps some children might begin to let it out of mind.

[ponderingturtle]

Yes. I'd say that by our last year in school the majority of students were atheist, or at least agnostic.

And you are not noticing the slight difference between say requireing all schools to have one, and not having an issue if a catholic school has one. I wonder if the law applies to jewish schools as well.

Clearly people need to be very clear what religions the local school district thinks are acceptable.

[Hux]

They are only concerned with 'mixed' schools.

[ponderingturtle]

I dont think it has quite that importance but the euro court of Human rights think they can get away with this without the halitosis hordes of Muzzies jumping up and down. By establishing this, it gives them more leverage against Muzzie sensibilities. They can say, you cant wear a Hijab just as there are no crucifix's in classrooms.

Saw a news item on this last night (admittedly on Fox Noise) and it showed an Italian classroom (Maths I believe on the blackboard) and there above, this huge great Elephant in the room - a crucifix. It looked imperious and -well lets say it - offensive. I'm offended by any religious trinketry, plaster dolls etc. I think that if these are taken out of sight, perhaps some children might begin to let it out of mind.

No, all they need are things like equaly large budda's, and hindu statues. Make it clear that all religions are fine. Sure you might not have room for students but hey they are not that important anyway.

[Hux]

Like I say, its only in mixed schools. If the kids are all catholic and its a catholic school, why would anyone object?

Its only for mixed religious classes.

[Darat]

And you are not noticing the slight difference between say requireing all schools to have one, and not having an issue if a catholic school has one. I wonder if the law applies to jewish schools as well.

Clearly people need to be very clear what religions the local school district thinks are acceptable.

I don't think many Jewish schools will be displaying crucifixes....



(Sorry couldn't resist.)

[UnrepentantSinner]

I thought it was the Eastern Orthodox folk that had barred crosses.

:roll:

That took me about 30 seconds to get, but since I've got some Orthodox friends on-line I should have gotten it immediately.

[Dysphemist]

And you are not noticing the slight difference between say requireing all schools to have one, and not having an issue if a catholic school has one. I wonder if the law applies to jewish schools as well.

Clearly people need to be very clear what religions the local school district thinks are acceptable.

I was focusses more on the Italian judges' claim that displaying the cross brainwashes children into accepting Christianity. In state school I agree that religious items should not be put up.

Derail: However, if we were talking about complete separation of religion from state schools I don't agree. Religion is a big part of the world and, imo, students should have to learn about at least the major religions, objectively.

[ponderingturtle]

I don't think many Jewish schools will be displaying crucifixes....



(Sorry couldn't resist.)


Ah but remember there is or was a law forcing all schools to display them, and they are about being Italian not catholic anyway. You should make them have them in their schools, or it is like saying they aren't Italian right?