1999 Russia terror bombings vs 9-11

[Thunder]

In 1999, 4 bombings went off in Russia that killed hundreds of civilians. The bombings were blaimed on Chechen militants, Vladimir Putin vowed to defeat the evil terrorists, and Putin became President and started the 2nd Chechen war, killings thousands.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#Theory_of_Russian_gover nment_involvement

but yet, there is a great deal of evidence that these bombings were actually an inside-job, orchestrated by Vladimir Putin and his former KGB buddies, in order to instill fear and panic in the Russian people, so that Putin can become the great savior, win the upcoming election, and start a massive new war.

but for some reason, this event and the huge amount of evidence supporting it, has fallen on deaf ears, especially in comparison to 9-11.

but yet, the evidence for this being an inside job is quite clear, solid, and hard core, while the evidence for 9-11 being an inside-job, is...well........just pure wacky woo.

so WHY are 9-11 conspiracy theories soooo very popular....and 1999 Russia bombing conspiracy theories just...plain ignored?

......I think I know why!!!

People around the world, and even in America, LOVE to hate America.

And, even more, people around the world, and in the USA, despised George W. Bush. (rightfully so :) )

So, 9-11 conspiracy theories were a perfect avenue for directing one's anti-American and anti-Bush feelings.

But, people don't really hate Russia..or Vladimir Putin...or even Putin's genocidal wars in Chechnya. So conspiracy theories (no matter how valid) against Putin and Russia are just plain...boring.

Its very hypocritical. Its very sad. And it shows the true motivations of many if not all..of the conspiracy theorists.

If they REALLY cared about bringing truth to the masses, we would not have major 9-11 Truth players appearing on Russia Today (RT) on a weekly basis, spouting their 9-11 Truth crap, while knowing that RT will NOT aire any major story about the possibly false-flag in Russia in 1999 (RT is funded by the Kremlin, surprise.... surprise. )

If truth....justice....democracy...freedom..was REALLY their goal, they would attack BOTH possible false-flag events, with the same amount of energy and passion.

But...they don't. And I believe I have spelled out why.

[grandthefttoaster]

What do you think is the most compelling piece of evidence that the bombings were an inside job?

[Thunder]

What do you think is the most compelling piece of evidence that the bombings were an inside job?

um..that the cops actually caught the fools planting a 5th bomb!!!!!!!!!

then the perps said it was a practise test, to see if the local police would catch them. the cops tastes the powder inside the bags, cause the perps said it was "sugar". it did not taste sweet. it tasted horrible. the cops got sick from the "sugar".

read the Wiki article I posted. there is a lot more there.

"
According to a theory, the bombings were a successful coup d'état (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coup_d%27%C3%A9tat) organized by the FSB to bring future Russian president Vladimir Putin to power. Some of them described the bombings as typical "active measures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_measures)" practiced by the KGB (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KGB) in the past. David Satter stated, during his testimony in the United States House of Representatives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_House_of_Representatives),
"With Yeltsin and his family facing possible criminal prosecution, however, a plan was put into motion to put in place a successor who would guarantee that Yeltsin and his family would be safe from prosecution and the criminal division of property in the country would not be subject to reexamination. For “Operation Successor” to succeed, however, it was necessary to have a massive provocation. In my view, this provocation was the bombing in September, 1999 of the apartment building bombings in Moscow, Buinaksk, and Volgodonsk. In the aftermath of these attacks, which claimed 300 lives, a new war was launched against Chechnya. Putin, the newly appointed prime minister who was put in charge of that war, achieved overnight popularity. Yeltsin resigned early. Putin was elected president and his first act was to guarantee Yeltsin immunity from prosecution."[141] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-140)
Yuri Felshtinsky and Vladimir Pribylovsky wrote that the September 4 attack in Buynaksk was probably conducted by a sabotage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabotage) unit of twelve Russian GRU officers who acted on the orders of Colonel-General Valentin Korabelnikov.[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-Assassins-12)[142] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-Galkin-141) They referred to the testimony of GRU officer Aleksey Galkin. According to this version, all other attacks were organized by FSB forces based on the following chain of command: "Putin (former director of the secret service, future president) - Patrushev (Putin's successor as director of the secret service) - secret service General German Ugryumov (director of the counter-terrorism department)." FSB officers Vladimir Romanovich, Ramazan Dyshekov, and others directly carried out the bombings. Several Chechens were recruited by FSB agents to deliver explosives, disguised as bags of sugar, to Volgodonsk and Moscow: Adam Dekkushev, Yusuf Krymshakhalov, and Timur Batchaev. The Chechens believed that the apartment buildings were merely temporarily storage places, and that the explosives would be used against federal military targets. Ethnic Karachai Achemez Gochiyaev (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achemez_Gochiyaev) rented the apartment basements as storage spaces on request from the FSB agent Ramazan Dyshekov (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ramazan_Dyshekov&action=edit&redlink=1).[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-Assassins-12)"

[grandthefttoaster]

um..that the cops actually caught the fools planting a 5th bomb!!!!!!!!!

then the perps said it was a practise test, to see if the local police would catch them. the cops tastes the powder inside the bags, cause the perps said it was "sugar". it did not taste sweet. it tasted horrible. the cops got sick from the "sugar".

Where are you reading this? From what I gather, the cops had already left by the time the bombers had left the sacks of white powder. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#Ryazan_incident) Later on the Deputy Prosecutor claimed it was just sugar. Also a newspaper later claimed that an Army Private had seen sacks of explosives marked as sugar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#A_military_storage_with _RDX_disguised_as_.22sugar.22) at a base.

[Thunder]

Where are you reading this? From what I gather, the cops had already left by the time the bombers had left the sacks of white powder. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#Ryazan_incident) Later on the Deputy Prosecutor claimed it was just sugar. Also a newspaper later claimed that an Army Private had seen sacks of explosives marked as sugar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#A_military_storage_with _RDX_disguised_as_.22sugar.22) at a base.

even more disgusting evidence.

but don't worry, the Patriotic 9-11 Truthers, who care ONLY about truth, justice, and freedom for all, will be on the case!!

they will be demanding that RT discuss all this evidence next week.....not!!!!!

well, maybe the 9-11 Truthers will demand that some major American media outlet discuss the case? NOT!!

Alex Jones will devote an entire radio show to the evidence of an inside job in the 1999 Russia apartment bombings? NOT!!!

:(

[deep]

In 2000, Russia's President Vladimir Putin dismissed the allegations of FSB involvement in the bombings as "delirious nonsense."See? The story checks out - no conspiracy.

[Thunder]

In 2000, Russia's President Vladimir Putin dismissed the allegations of FSB involvement in the bombings as "delirious nonsense."See? The story checks out - no conspiracy.

damn...you're right. i guess there is nothing to see here.

[WildCat]

read the Wiki article I posted. there is a lot more there.

"
According to a theory,
Only problem is there is no evidence offered for the theory.

Evidence parky, got any?

[Thunder]

Only problem is there is no evidence offered for the theory.

Evidence parky, got any?

um..did you read through the very long and detailed article?

[WildCat]

um..did you read through the very long and detailed article?
The entire inside job conspiracy theory section was only 4 paragraphs long.

And there was no evidence that I could see.

Would you like to post some?

[Thunder]

Ryazan incident

On the evening of September 22 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_22), 1999 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999), a resident of an apartment building in the city of Ryazan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryazan) noticed two suspicious men who carried sacks into the basement from a car with a Moscow license plate.[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-Assassins-12)[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-24)[26] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-25)[27] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-26) He alerted the police, but by the time they arrived the car and the men were gone. The policemen found three 50 kg sacks of white powder in the basement. A detonator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detonator) and a timing device (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timer) were attached and armed. The timer was set to 5:30 AM.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-Dissident-6) Yuri Tkachenko, the head of the local bomb squad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bomb_disposal), disconnected the detonator and the timer and tested the three sacks of white substance with a "MO-2" gas analyzer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_spectrometry). The device detected traces of RDX (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RDX), the military explosive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_explosive) used in all previous bombings.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-guardian.co.uk-2)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-wsws.org-3)[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-Satter-5). The explosive engineers took a bit of substance from the suspicious-looking sacks to a firing ground located some kilometers away from Ryazan for testing.[28] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-ReferenceA-27)[29] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-politcom.ru.2F2002.2Faaa_skandal20.php-28) During the substance tests at that area they tried to explode it by means of a detonator, but their efforts failed, the substance was not detonated, and the explosion did not occur.[28] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-ReferenceA-27)[29] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-politcom.ru.2F2002.2Faaa_skandal20.php-28)[30] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-29)[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-30)[32] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-31) Police and rescue vehicles converged from different parts of the city, and 30,000 residents were evacuated from the area. 1,200 local police officers armed with automatic weapons set up roadblocks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roadblock) on highways around the city and started patrolling railroad stations and airports to hunt the terrorists down. In the morning, "Ryazan resembled a city under siege".[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-Satter-5) Composite sketches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composite_sketch) of three suspected terrorists, two men and a woman, were shown on TV.
In the morning of September 23 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_23) Russian television networks reported the attempt to blow up a building in Ryazan using RDX.[33] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-ort-32). On the 23 of September 1999 the NTV broadcasting company transmitted in its News block at 4 p.m. there were no explosives detected during the suspicious-looking sacks testing.[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-33) Minister of Internal Affairs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Ministry_of_Internal_Affairs) Vladimir Rushailo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Rushailo) announced that police prevented a terrorist act. Later in the evening Prime Minister of Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Minister_of_Russia) Vladimir Putin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Putin) praised the vigilance of the Ryazanians and called for the air bombing of the Chechen capital Grozny (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grozny).[35] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-34)
Later, a telephone service employee in Ryazan tapped into long distance phone conversations and managed to detect a talk in which an out-of-town person suggested to others that they "split up" and "make your own way out". That person's number was traced to a telephone exchange unit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_exchange) serving FSB offices.[36] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-35) When arrested, the detainees produced FSB identification cards. They were soon released on orders from Moscow.[37] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-shadow-36)[38] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-bbc_ryazan-37) According to the head of FSB Nikolai Patrushev (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Patrushev), the exercise was carried out to test responses after the earlier blasts. FSB issued a public apology about the incident.[39] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-nyt_ber-38)
The Russian Deputy Prosecutor declared in 2002 that a comprehensive testing of the samples showed no traces of any explosives, and that sacks from Ryazan contained only sugar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar).[40] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-kolmogorov-39) However Yuri Tkachenko, the police explosives expert who defused the Ryazan bomb, insisted that it was real. Tkachenko said that the explosives, including a timer, a power source, and a detonator were genuine military equipment and obviously prepared by a professional. He also said that the gas analyzer that tested the vapors coming from the sacks unmistakably indicated the presence of RDX. Tkachenko said that it was out of the question that the analyzer could have malfunctioned, as the gas analyzer was of world class (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=World_class&action=edit&redlink=1) quality, cost $20,000, and was maintained by a specialist who worked according to a strict schedule, checking the analyzer after each use and making frequent prophylactic checks. Tkachenko pointed out that meticulous care in the handling of the gas analyzer was a necessity because the lives of the bomb squad experts depended on the reliability of their equipment. The police officers who answered the original call and discovered the bomb also insisted that it was obvious from its appearance that the substance in the bomb was not sugar.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-Satter-5)[41] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-NationalReview-40)
At a press conference on the occasion of the Federal Security Service Employee Day in December 2001 Yury Tkachenko, the police explosives expert who defused the Ryazan bomb, said that the gas analyzer had not been used. He added that the detonator was a hunting cartridge and that it would not be able to detonate any known explosives.[42] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-fsb-satisfied-41)


The type of explosives controversy

It was initially reported by the FSB that the explosives used by the terrorists was RDX (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RDX) (or "hexogen"). However, it was officially declared later that the explosive was not RDX, but a mixture of aluminum powder, niter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niter) (saltpeter), sugar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar), and TNT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinitrotoluene) prepared by the perpetrators in a concrete mixer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete_mixer) at a fertilizer factory in Urus-Martan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urus-Martan), Chechnya.[43] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-Kommersant2004-01-13-42)[44] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-Kommersant2002-12-10-43) RDX is produced in only one factory in Russia, in the city of Perm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perm),[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-Satter-5). According to the book by Satter, the FSB changed the story about the type of explosive, since it was difficult to explain how huge amounts of RDX disappeared from the closely guarded Perm facility.


A military storage with RDX disguised as "sugar"

In March 2000, Russian newspaper Novaya Gazeta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novaya_Gazeta) reported about a Private Alexei Pinyaev of the 137th Regiment who guarded a military facility near the city of Ryazan. He was surprised to see that "a storehouse with weapons and ammunition" contained sacks with the word "sugar" on them. The two paratroopers cut a hole in one of the bags and made tea with the sugar taken from the bag. But the taste of the tea was terrible. They became suspicious since people were talking about the explosions. The substance turned out to be hexogen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexogen). After the newspaper report, FSB officers "descended on Pinyaev's unit", accused them of "divulging a state secret", and told them "You guys can't even imagine what serious business you've got yourselves tangled up in." The regiment later sued Novaya Gazeta for insulting the honor of the Russian Army, since there was no Private Alexei Pinyaev in the regiment, according to their statement.[45] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-44) At an FSB press conference Private Pinyayev stated that there was not any hexogen in the 137th sky troops Regiment and that he was hospitalized in December 1999 and no longer visited the range.[42] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-fsb-satisfied-41)

Sealing of all materials by Russian Duma

The Russian Duma rejected two motions for parliamentary investigation of the Ryazan incident.[58] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-terror99-49-57)[59] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-terror99-42-58) The Duma, on a pro-Kremlin party-line vote (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party-line_vote), voted to seal all materials related to the Ryazan incident for the next 75 years and forbade an investigation into what happened.

Arrest of independent investigator Trepashkin

The commission of Sergei Kovalev asked lawyer Mikhail Trepashkin to investigate the case. Trepashkin found that the basement of one of the bombed buildings was rented by FSB officer Vladimir Romanovich and that the latter was witnessed by several people. However, Trepashkin was unable to bring the evidence to court, because he was arrested in October 2003, allegedly for "disclosing state secrets", just a few days before he was to make his findings public.[60] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-cdi.org-59) He was sentenced by a military closed court (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_trial) to four years imprisonment.[61] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-coranet.radicalparty.org-60) Amnesty International (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amnesty_International) issued a statement that "there are serious grounds to believe that Mikhail Trepashkin was arrested and convicted under falsified criminal charges which may be politically motivated, in order to prevent him continuing his investigative and legal work related to the 1999 apartment bombings in Moscow and other cities".[62] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-web.amnesty.org-61) Romanovich subsequently died in a hit and run (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hit_and_run) accident in Cyprus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus). According to Trepashkin, his supervisors and people from the FSB promised not to arrest him if he left the Kovalev commission and started working with the FSB "against Alexander Litvinenko".[63] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-Interview_with_Mikhail_Trepashkin-62) Commission chairman Kovalev summarized their findings as follows:[64] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-RFL-63) "What can I tell? We can prove only one thing: there was no training exercise in the city of Ryazan. Authorities do not want to answer any questions..."

[WildCat]

And from the same wiki page you linked to:
According to researcher Gordon Bennett, the conspiracy theory that the FSB was behind the bombings is kept alive by the Russian oligarch and Kremlin-critic Boris Berezovsky. Bennett points out that neither Berezovsky nor his team (which includes Alexander Litvinenko) have provided any evidence to support their claims. In the BBC World Hard Talk interview on 8 May 2002, Berezovsky was also unable to present any evidence for his claims, and he did not suggest he was in possession of such evidence which he would be ready to present in a court.[146] Bennett also points out that Putin's critics often forget that the decision to send troops to Chechnya was taken by Boris Yeltsin — not Vladimir Putin — with the wholehearted support of all power structures.
Hmmm, no evidence, not ready to take the case to court despite claims of inside jobby-job... yep, this is looking like the 9/11 CT the more I look into it!

[Thunder]

And from the same wiki page you linked to:

Hmmm, no evidence, not ready to take the case to court despite claims of inside jobby-job... yep, this is looking like the 9/11 CT the more I look into it!

um, did you read the paragraphs i posted from the wiki article?

no evidence???

[WildCat]

Ryazan incident
Is this where I'm supposed to "connect the dots" or something?

[SezMe]

...but yet, the evidence for this being an inside job is quite clear, solid, and hard core, ....

If truth....justice....democracy...freedom..was REALLY their goal, they would attack BOTH possible false-flag events,
My bold. So which is it? "Possible" false-flag or "clear, solid, hard core" that it was, in fact, one.

[Thunder]

My bold. So which is it? "Possible" false-flag or "clear, solid, hard core" that it was, in fact, one.

i meant possible to emphasize their beliefs, not mine.

9-11 was not an inside job.

[Thunder]

Is this where I'm supposed to "connect the dots" or something?

shouldn't you be focusing on finding what was actually incorrect about the Goldstone report?

[SezMe]

So conspiracy theories (no matter how valid) against Putin and Russia are just plain...boring.

...

But...they don't. And I believe I have spelled out why.
I think you got the right answer for the wrong reason. Nobody cares about the Russian event because Moscow is an international backwater. It is not a major travel center, trade center, diplomatic center, etc. Thousands of people from around the globe did not work there for top-tier international companies.

So most of the world had no real connection to Moscow thus the indifference. Or as you put it, "boring".

It had little or nothing to do with hatred of America. Remember, at the time Shrub had only been in office 9 months and had not yet damaged the American brand.

[Thunder]

It had little or nothing to do with hatred of America. Remember, at the time Shrub had only been in office 9 months and had not yet damaged the American brand.

many Americans hated Shrub with a passion, the day he was inaugurated. myself included.

did folks outside the USA hate him at that point? not as much..no.

[Foolmewunz]

Is this where I'm supposed to "connect the dots" or something?

Ditto Wildcat's several comments. (Or should that be "dotto"?)

It's an interesting topic, but I'd rather see evidence and source material other than Wiki articles. Meh? I'm personally willing to believe Putin and The Boyz had something to do with the bombings, but that's just because I simply don't like the guy, and it ends right there until I see some proof.

Soldatov, who's not exactly a fan of the FSG or Putin, has stated that he thinks the Putin government is over-reacting to requests for information and in clamping down on the information/evidence, but that he feels they are doing so out of their inherent paranoia, not from guilt.

[Thunder]

Ditto Wildcat's several comments. (Or should that be "dotto"?)

It's an interesting topic, but I'd rather see evidence and source material other than Wiki articles.

almost every single point made in the Wiki article has a cute little source to the upper right of it. feel free to click on those little numbers and read the source article.

here is one:

http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/8014-18.cfm

here is another:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/449325.stm

[WildCat]

almost every single point made in the Wiki article has a cute little source to the upper right of it. feel free to click on those little numbers and read the source article.

here is one:

http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/8014-18.cfm

here is another:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/449325.stm
Oh, fun! More dot connecting!

When will the actual evidence be introduced to this thread parky?

[Thunder]

Oh, fun! More dot connecting!

When will the actual evidence be introduced to this thread parky?

u want me to read for you?

i have shown you the door. i can't make you go through it.

help me help you.

[WildCat]

u want me to read for you?

i have shown you the door. i can't make you go through it.

help me help you.
Here, look at this video, and read this book by David Ray Griffin...

Don't "lead me to" your evidence parky, produce it. So far, all you've done is post claims and no evidence.

You can start by posting one piece of evidence. Just one, are you up to the challenge?

[Thunder]

You can start by posting one piece of evidence. Just one, are you up to the challenge?

um, the articles i posted include evidence. the articles also link to stories with more evidence.

use your truther skills and follow down the rabbit hole.

[jhunter1163]

Quote:
According to researcher Gordon Bennett, the conspiracy theory that the FSB was behind the bombings is kept alive by the Russian oligarch and Kremlin-critic Boris Berezovsky. Bennett points out that neither Berezovsky nor his team (which includes Alexander Litvinenko) have provided any evidence to support their claims. In the BBC World Hard Talk interview on 8 May 2002, Berezovsky was also unable to present any evidence for his claims, and he did not suggest he was in possession of such evidence which he would be ready to present in a court.[146] Bennett also points out that Putin's critics often forget that the decision to send troops to Chechnya was taken by Boris Yeltsin — not Vladimir Putin — with the wholehearted support of all power structures.


Wasn't that the guy who was murdered by polonium or something like that?

I don't know enough about this case to comment intelligently, so I'm going to keep my mouth shut, except to say that a better case can be made for conspiracy regarding this event than 9/11.

That doesn't mean a good case, just a better case.

[Foolmewunz]

almost every single point made in the Wiki article has a cute little source to the upper right of it. feel free to click on those little numbers and read the source article.

here is one:

http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/8014-18.cfm


A blog-type site, citing an article from a newspaper that includes the below gem:

But Nikolai Gorokhov, Trepashkin's assistant and a member of the defense team, said Trepashkin had just wanted to raise some troubling questions. "There was no direct evidence, but there definitely were some murky facts that had to be investigated," he said.



here is another:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/449325.stm

An article from '99, mostly detailing the OCT of the Russian government, with a mention at the bottom of a prescient article by Alex Jones a Russian journalist predicting that due to Yeltsin's ill-health it was just conceivable that the security forces might be up to "something" - but no mention of these bombings.


You expect us to click over 150 of these links? Do you mind if I skip the ones from WorldNetDaily? (BAC will be off of suspension in 20 or so days - he can check them out for you.)

Unless you're a part of a different JREF Forum than I am, this ain't the way we work around here. You have a theory, idea, concept... YOU PROVIDE THE EVIDENCE.

Like I said, .... I'm a willing convert. I already dislike the guy. All I need is more credible evidence. What would you have done with a truther who came in here citing, as evidence, news articles with no documented backup, opinion pieces, and rumors?

As we alway say to the truthers (adding 2 years).... It's been ten years, now. Where is Berzovski's "evidence" that he was going to release "any day now". I found the first cite of that claim in 2002. Yet there is no evidence offered, yet.

[Undesired Walrus]

almost every single point made in the Wiki article has a cute little source to the upper right of it. feel free to click on those little numbers and read the source article.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/449325.stm


Meanwhile others in Moscow are still wondering whether there is a domestic political aspect to the crisis and whether rogue elements of the security forces are in some way involved in an attempt to provoke a state of emergency in Russia or the cancellation of elections.

There is absolutely no proof of this, but a little noticed article in the Moscow newspaper Moskovskaya Pravda by a respectable journalist Alexander Zhilin is now attracting attention.

Zhilin wrote on 25 August that President Yeltsin's health was failing and that a plan with the codename "Storm in Moscow" was being hatched in the Kremlin.

He wrote that "tremendous shocks await Moscow," including a series of terrorist acts, which were being designed to discredit the mayor of Moscow Yury Luzhkov and force a cancellation of the elections.

Conspiracy theories are part of the staple diet of Moscow politics.

Zhilin's article is interesting because it was written before the bomb explosions. At the very least it says a lot about the fevered political atmosphere in Russia that some people take these theories seriously.



D'oh!

[Undesired Walrus]

No evidence?

[defaultdotxbe]

while i admit the russian bombings have more evidence of being an inside job than 9/11, i must concede its not hard to garner an amount greater than zero

as for why, its probably due to the fact that people that truly and honestly believe their government will kill indiscriminately to attain its goals are less likely to get in the way of those goals, and of course russians are probably used to the government telling blatant lies and not questioning it (for reasons mentioned above)

http://pics.xbehome.com/albums/userpics/10001/141_094_stalin_photo_book.jpg
kudos to whichever screw loose change blogger pointed this book out to me (sorry, i dont recally which one, i just know one of you mentioned it)

[UNLoVedRebel]

Parky would be a terrible witness to a murder.

Prosecutor: Parky, did you see the defendant shoot the victim in the head?
Parky: Yes, well at least that's what it looked like. It was really a "false flag" operation. The alleged victim wanted to make it look like he was being murdered by the defendant because he didn't like him.
Prosecutor: Uh, what?
Parky: Even though I saw the alleged victim get his brains blown out, I have every reason to believe he's alive and hiding out somewhere. He used either CGI or some advanced make-up to make it look like he got his brains blown out. It was all staged.

[Mobertermy]

Parky, this is the dumbest conspiracy theory I've heard in awhile. Russia had already been at war with Chechnya and they had to commit a false flag attack to what? Continue it? How stupid do you have to be believe something like that? It makes zero sense.

[Thunder]

Parky, this is the dumbest conspiracy theory I've heard in awhile. Russia had already been at war with Chechnya and they had to commit a false flag attack to what? Continue it? How stupid do you have to be believe something like that? It makes zero sense.

hmmmm...

welcome to the forum?

hmmm...:cool:

[JamesB]

while i admit the russian bombings have more evidence of being an inside job than 9/11, i must concede its not hard to garner an amount greater than zero

as for why, its probably due to the fact that people that truly and honestly believe their government will kill indiscriminately to attain its goals are less likely to get in the way of those goals, and of course russians are probably used to the government telling blatant lies and not questioning it (for reasons mentioned above)

http://pics.xbehome.com/albums/userpics/10001/141_094_stalin_photo_book.jpg
kudos to whichever screw loose change blogger pointed this book out to me (sorry, i dont recally which one, i just know one of you mentioned it)

That was me. I am the one with the BA in Russian and East European Studies. :D

I have never really looked into these theories in-depth, but they are at least practical theories. They don't require magic space weapons or super nano-thermite. It is no surprise that there hasn't been much about it. In Russia journalists end up shot dead in the lobby of their apartment buildings all the time. Alex Jones and Dylan Avery only wish their lives were actually in danger.

[CHF]

Parky, this is the dumbest conspiracy theory I've heard in awhile. Russia had already been at war with Chechnya and they had to commit a false flag attack to what? Continue it? How stupid do you have to be believe something like that? It makes zero sense.

Actually the CT does make sense.

The first Chechen war ended in 1996 with a humiliating Russia defeat and by 1999 Russia was thirsty for revenge.

The apartment bombings infuriated Russians and allowed Putin to invade Chechnya in order to destroy the rebels once and for all. It was on the back of that successful war that Putin built his reputation as the savior of Russia - the man who brought stability and restored the nation's pride.

As for the conspiracy theory itself, it certainly has lot of circumstantial evidence.

Indeed, the FSB was caught by local police planting sacks in the basement of another apartment. The cops say the sacks contained explosives; the FSB/government says it was sugar and was part of a test. Journalists investigating the story have been beaten or killed (truthers, eat your heart out!).

On the other hand, the attacks came only a month after a Chechen rebel incursion into Dagestan was beaten back by Russian forces, after which Chechen commanders had threatened attacks on Russia in response.

But then how would bombing Russian apartments have been in the best interest of the fledgling de-facto independent Chechen state? It's noteworthy that no rebels took credit for the bombings.

This contrasts greatly with all other known Chechen terror attacks, which have all been (proudly) admitted and have been done in order to get Russia to pull its forces out - 1995 hospital hostage taking, 2002 Moscow theater, 2004 airline bombings, 2004 Belsan massacre etc.

So why would the Chechens bomb Russia when they already had the Russians out of their country for three years?

There's not enough solid evidence to say one way or the other whodunnit.

But there certainly is more logic and more evidence to the Russian bombings CT than there is for 9/11 truth.

[Childlike Empress]

Sorry, twoofskis, "Putin blew up the appartment buildings" is as stupid as "Bush blew up the towers". To make me believe in a CT, you have to convince me with an alternative narration.

"With Yeltsin and his family facing possible criminal prosecution, however, a plan was put into motion to put in place a successor who would guarantee that Yeltsin and his family would be safe from prosecution and the criminal division of property in the country would not be subject to reexamination. For “Operation Successor” to succeed, however, it was necessary to have a massive provocation. In my view, this provocation was the bombing in September, 1999 of the apartment building bombings in Moscow, Buinaksk, and Volgodonsk. In the aftermath of these attacks, which claimed 300 lives, a new war was launched against Chechnya. Putin, the newly appointed prime minister who was put in charge of that war, achieved overnight popularity. Yeltsin resigned early. Putin was elected president and his first act was to guarantee Yeltsin immunity from prosecution."[141] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-140)


"Yeltsin and his family"? Good starting point. What happened to them?

[Thunder]

But there certainly is more logic and more evidence to the Russian bombings CT than there is for 9/11 truth.

hear hear!!

plus the fact that the Russian apartment bombings CT is NOT tied into any ******** NWO, chemtrail, Illuminati, Mossad, lizard-people, nonsense.

[CHF]

Sorry, twoofskis, "Putin blew up the appartment buildings" is as stupid as "Bush blew up the towers". To make me believe in a CT, you have to convince me with an alternative narration.

Simple. The FSB staged attacks, blamed it on the Chechens and then launched a war against Chechnya which paved the way for the old KGB elite to resurect Russian power and state control in the wake of the disasterous Yeltsin "democracy" years.

It makes sense in obvious ways that the 9/11 CT's don't.

Russia wants war with Chechnya; Russia staged attack and blames Chechnya. Simple enough.

In the case of 9/11 you have the NWO staging an attack and then blaming it on Saudis in order to launch a war on Afghanistan (which had some connection to the plot) and Iraq (which had no connection whatsoever).

Plus we have police officials claiming to have caught the FSB planting bombs; no one caught the CIA planting super-dooper nanothermite. Meanwhile, journalists who investigate the Russian plot are bumped off, while their American truther counterparts hold filmscreenings and sell books at Barnes and Noble.

Again, none of this is proof positive that the FSB was the guilty party. But there's far more to go on than doctored WTC collapse audio and "nanothermite" paint chips.

[Thunder]

plus the fact that the USSR was known for such dishonest and pathetic actions. Putin is part of the old guard, and I would not put it past him and his FSB buddies to do this.

Putin wanted to be elected, him and his buddies found a way to accomplish that and get a new "patriotic war", in one fell-swoop.

no NWO, no chemtrails, no Mossad...just pure 1...2....3.

[Childlike Empress]

Simple. The FSB staged attacks, blamed it on the Chechens and then launched a war against Chechnya which paved the way for the old KGB elite to resurect Russian power and state control in the wake of the disasterous Yeltsin "democracy" years.

It makes sense in obvious ways that the 9/11 CT's don't.


"The FSB" did it makes no sense. These are millions of people. Who had a secret network in it and was able to order such an operation? Putin certainly wasn't in a position to do so. He left the KGB in 1991 and spend his time as an offical in St. Petersburg until he was appointed head of the FSB in 1998 (as a buerocrat for only 13 months) and then Prime Minister, both by Boris Yeltzin. He was a political nobody.

[CHF]

"The FSB" did it makes no sense. These are millions of people. Who had a secret network in it and was able to order such an operation? Putin certainly wasn't in a position to do so. He left the KGB in 1991 and spend his time as an offical in St. Petersburg until he was appointed head of the FSB in 1998 (as a buerocrat for only 13 months) and then Prime Minister, both by Boris Yeltzin. He was a political nobody.

A handful of FSB guys planting bombs in the basements of apartment blocks doesn't take a massive conspiracy.

And being head of the FSB doesn't make you a "political nobody." Unknown by most Russians, yes - but not an insignificant player.

I'm certainly not convinced of this conspiracy, but for you to claim that it's just as stupid as super-dooper nanothermite bombs being planted in the WTC, along with the staging of fake hijackings and plane crashes, and the ensuing coverup by the world's CD experts and engineers.....well, I can only assume you're somehow looking for comfort.

[Thunder]

A but for you to claim that it's just as stupid as super-dooper nanothermite bombs being planted in the WTC, along with the staging of fake hijackings and plane crashes, and the ensuing coverup by the world's CD experts and engineers.....well, I can only assume you're somehow looking for comfort.



comparing the Russian apartment bombings theories to nano-thermite, space-beams, and NPT, is a wee bit a stretch..me thinks.

kind of a strawman...no?

[Caustic Logic]

There's definitely something to this story. What's with the mindset of any kind of conspiracy thing or false flag op or anything weird can't ever happen, even in bad guy countries? Kind of knee-jerk, at best, methinks.

Lessee...
* Chechens would have nothing to gain doing this but misery
* Russian interests were served all-in-all here. They did lose a few people, but that's part of the deal.
* Putin had headed the FSB, had just been appointed acting PM or whatever exactly, and his firm response to the crisis ensured him greater power than otherwise
* After the FSB had failed to stop 4 bombings (or maybe 5, there's one previous that's debated if connected) they get caught not foiling a bombing but "testing the local peoples' vigilance" with a "fake bombing" on the same northward line. As if the regular people were the weak link! They shoulda stopped right before that dummies!
* People in Russia who point these things out wind up dead as a result al too often.

That is not proven, but plenty good "hmmmmm" material.

Or haha lol watergate was exposed conspiwacies cant be real hah!

[Mobertermy]

I'm having a really hard time wrapping my head around why you guys think this Russian incident is legit. Admittedly, I'd never heard of it before I came on here but your reasoning sounds exactly like a crazy conspiracy.

* Arabs would gain nothing by 911 except misery
* Neo-con interests were served all-in-all here. They lost a few people but thats part of the deal.
* Bush's Father was head of the CIA and his firm response to the crises ensured him greater power than otherwise.
* I don't get point 4.
* 911 conspiracy theorists claim there are strange deaths from 911.

You can cut and paste your reasoning to 911. Like I said I've never heard of this incident before but it doesn't seem to make sense.

[Thunder]

I'm having a really hard time wrapping my head around why you guys think this Russian incident is legit. Admittedly, I'd never heard of it before I came on here but your reasoning sounds exactly like a crazy conspiracy.

* Arabs would gain nothing by 911 except misery.


try...just try...to think out of the box just a little bit. Al-Qaeda did not then and does not now represent all Muslims or Arabs.

and why..why....do some truthers still insist in believing Muslims=Arabs???

are they really that dense?

[Mobertermy]

Well seeing as it was arabs on 911 I fail to see your point.

[Thunder]

Well seeing as it was arabs on 911 I fail to see your point.

I know its off topic but I'd like to ask anyways: how old are you?

[Mobertermy]

30s, why?

[Thunder]

30s, why?

just wondering. do you understand that Islamic extremists are not rational or logical people, and their goals for 9-11 were neither rational nor logical?

and of course, there is also the possibility that these guys simply wanted to kill a lot of people and put the fear of Allah into America.

did you ever consider these possibilities?

[Undesired Walrus]

What in the hell are you rambling on about park?

You realise the person you are speaking to is not a truther right?

[9/11 Chewy Defense]

Early History of Terrorism:

http://www.terrorism-research.com/history/early.php

Terrorism in the 20th and 21st Century:

http://www.terrorism-research.com/history/recent.php

If the Truthers think that terrorism was grown from the U.S. Government, they're sadly mistaken.

[Mobertermy]

Yes I thought of those possibilities. That's why they did it. Did you ever consider thats why the Chechens did it? Its all part of the same islamic attack on democracy. Chechnya was already at war with Russia in 1999 right?

[Thunder]

Yes I thought of those possibilities. That's why they did it. Did you ever consider thats why the Chechens did it? Its all part of the same islamic attack on democracy. Chechnya was already at war with Russia in 1999 right?

well, the difference is, the USSR/Russia has a very nice track record of doing very horrible things against its own people. now, the USA is not perfect, by any means, but we do not have a history like that of Russia's.

am I 100% convinced the apt. bombings were done by Putin and his buddies? no..of course not. but I do believe there is a much greater chance of this being a reality, then do 9-11 conspiracy theories.

[Mobertermy]

Well, like I said I don't know much about it but on the surface it sounds alot like the 911 truth conspiracy, actually exactly. Was Russia already at war with Chechnya though? Your right though that Russia does have a bad history and America doesn't which is a big difference.

[Thunder]

Well, like I said I don't know much about it but on the surface it sounds alot like the 911 truth conspiracy, actually exactly. Was Russia already at war with Chechnya though? Your right though that Russia does have a bad history and America doesn't which is a big difference.

no..the first Chechen was was over. Putin wanted to become President.

lets also not forget that fact that immediately after Putin was elected, he passed through legislation giving Yeltsin full retro-active immunity for any charges dealing with the bombings.

what happened over there stinks to high heaven.

[CHF]

Was Russia already at war with Chechnya though?

In the summer of 1999 Russia was not officially at war with Chechnya, no.

In August a couple thousand Chechens crossed over into neighbouring Dagestan in an effort to support a local Islamic uprising. The Russians and local forces put down the revolt and drove the Chechens off with heavy bombardment.

The question is: were the Chechens pissed off enough, and crazy enough, to lash out in the form of apartment bombings given what the Russian response would be?

From a rational perspective it would have been a horrible idea for the Chechens to launch attacks, as history has shown. The Chechen rebels were driven from power within a few months and were largely destroyed as an effective guerrilla force by 2005-2006 (both by brute force and by defections to the pro-Moscow Khadirov regime).

So it perhaps didn't make sense from a self-preservation point of view. But then neither did the Beslan atrocity in 2004, which utterly destroyed whatever global sympathy the Chechens may have had left.

On the other hand, given that the Chechens had shown themselves willing to spread Islamic revolution to Dagestan, it could be argued that the apartment bombings were meant to bring about a Russian attack which would then inflame the locals and lead to Islamic uprisings in the whole region - in Dagestan and especially among the Chechens' ethnic counsins in Ingushetia.

Either way, a crazy idea. But Religious fanatics aren't known for their sanity.

[Caustic Logic]

CHF, you're awesome. I've really not studies this stuff much, the full context, etc. I can only argue so far on principle... I'm glad you can at least see that. I'm also not sure how fanatical these guys are, or how their fanaticism is distributed relative to strategic thinking. Beyond me. But this is one of those things where, when you ask "who benefits?" it's really not the terrorists who allegedly brought it on themselves.

I only meant to pop in here, but okay...

I'm having a really hard time wrapping my head around why you guys think this Russian incident is legit. Admittedly, I'd never heard of it before I came on here but your reasoning sounds exactly like a crazy conspiracy.

* Arabs would gain nothing by 911 except misery
* Neo-con interests were served all-in-all here. They lost a few people but thats part of the deal.
* Bush's Father was head of the CIA and his firm response to the crises ensured him greater power than otherwise.
* I don't get point 4.
* 911 conspiracy theorists claim there are strange deaths from 911.

You can cut and paste your reasoning to 911. Like I said I've never heard of this incident before but it doesn't seem to make sense.

Yeah, it's a similar who benefits thing. Like if you steal your roommate's watch, and then tell him it was the cat (whom he knows you despise anyway), shouldn't this guy ask "what would the cat gain?" And also it's impossible since cats don't have humbs, but you get the idea. Thoughts like that r: something like 9/11 are, IMO, rational and natural. I got them. Fact is, I see no clear evidence that these are more than just hunches. The mechanics to turn possible conspiracy to reality just aren't there. Not so in the case of 9/99.

Religion can be quite irrational, but it's not a sound tack to use it as a blanket excuse to cover for gaps in logic. Who knows why? They're Muslim crazy, they like to get attacked and conquered by us, etc... It's an argument that annoys me.

You don't get point 4? Well that's your problem there. There are better sites around, but this one (http://12-7-9-11.blogspot.com/2007/12/999-part-ii-ryazan-incident.html)'s mine. Dated, not up to my current standards, etc. but a start. Also this thread up to here talks about it.

[Thunder]

Either way, a crazy idea. But Religious fanatics aren't known for their sanity.

well, see, here is the thing. While crazy, the Chechens also do have a semi-rational goal: independence for their land.

and while this may sound silly, It seems to me that groups that have semi-rational goals tend to act a little more rationally.

Neither the IRA nor Hamas has ever staged an attack that would surely bring about a horrendous counter-attack by their enemy..or world-wide scorn. this is because they are aware that public opinion does matter, and a all-out-assualt by their enemy can render them destroyed.

that said, the IRA has not murdered 500 Brits at one time, and Hamas has not released a poison gas attack on Tel Aviv. such acts would be disastrous for them. just as killing hundreds of Russians would be disastrous for Chechens.

however, groups like Al Qaeda have no truly rational goals, which is why they seek ultimate carnage and mayhem around the world...and a giant response from their enemies. they dont got much to lose.

[Undesired Walrus]

Parky. Using your logic Beslan was a false-flag by the Russian Government.

Neither the IRA nor Hamas has ever staged an attack that would surely bring about a horrendous counter-attack by their enemy..or world-wide scorn. this is because they are aware that public opinion does matter, and a all-out-assualt by their enemy can render them destroyed.

They murdered hundreds of children in cold blood. They shot out the windows at them as they were running away. Didn't that create world-wide scorn?

[Thunder]

Parky. Using your logic Beslan was a false-flag by the Russian Government.


yeah, as I was writing that, I was thinking about the attack on the Moscow Theatre and the school in Breslan.

Maybe the Chechens are a little more crazy and a little less rational then I thought. I'm gonna have to contemplate this one.

[Caustic Logic]

Parky. Using your logic Beslan was a false-flag by the Russian Government.



They murdered hundreds of children in cold blood. They shot out the windows at them as they were running away. Didn't that create world-wide scorn?

I knew that would come next. It's true, it's got the hallmarks of "why?" But these are also separate events years apart, perhaps by different actual groups with different ideas. I'm also not familiar with the evidence there, except that it was not FSB guys driving around and disappearing, obviously. So it's like apples and oranges.

And hey, whatever did happen to those previous apartment blowing fanatics? Why did they happen to stop their northward bombing spree just before the FSB wound up simulating their next logical target? Is it just a coincidence the terrorists gave up right about when and where the "drills" started?
September 4th in Buinaksk, Dagestan (dead unsure)
Moscow on September 9 on Guryanov Street, killing 94,
Moscow on September 13 on Kashirskoye Shosse, killing 119.
September 16th at Volgodonsk, lesser casualties
fin - terrorists go home.
Sept 22 - FSB carries out a readiness drill in Ryazan, about the same time the air raids against Chechnya begin to defy the Muslim thugs who think they can bully might RUSSIA! Chest thump! Okay, the delay is longer than the usual (5 days, 4, 3, 6?) Also it's a weird world, coincidence reigns, Russians might have bad taste in drills prodcedure, Chechens are "emotional," etc... whatever, it's a talk forum.

[Undesired Walrus]

I don't get it here:

The Russian Deputy Prosecutor declared in 2002 that a comprehensive testing of the samples showed no traces of any explosives, and that sacks from Ryazan contained only sugar. However Yuri Tkachenko, the police explosives expert who defused the Ryazan bomb, insisted that it was real. Tkachenko said that the explosives, including a timer, a power source, and a detonator were genuine military equipment and obviously prepared by a professional. He also said that the gas analyzer that tested the vapors coming from the sacks unmistakably indicated the presence of RDX. Tkachenko said that it was out of the question that the analyzer could have malfunctioned, as the gas analyzer was of world class quality, cost $20,000, and was maintained by a specialist who worked according to a strict schedule, checking the analyzer after each use and making frequent prophylactic checks. Tkachenko pointed out that meticulous care in the handling of the gas analyzer was a necessity because the lives of the bomb squad experts depended on the reliability of their equipment. The police officers who answered the original call and discovered the bomb also insisted that it was obvious from its appearance that the substance in the bomb was not sugar.

At a press conference on the occasion of the Federal Security Service Employee Day in December 2001 Yury Tkachenko, the police explosives expert who defused the Ryazan bomb, said that the gas analyzer had not been used. He added that the detonator was a hunting cartridge and that it would not be able to detonate any known explosives


Isn't he contadicting himself?

[Caustic Logic]

I don't get it here:



Isn't he contadicting himself?

Hmmm... apparently so. It happens a lot in high-profile weird cases. Is he just posturing to support CT delusions and sell books? Is he paid by the CIA (after 2001) to sow distrust in Russia? Was he coerced to downplaying it up to 2001 and somehow grew balls later? Time passes, and it can unfold many ways, and stories change.

But we have allegations. At the very least we have another who benefits scenario tho. Why would the FSB benefit from getting caught in an unnanounced "drill" mimicking such heinous terrorizing tactics, when all it takes from there is a guy like this saying "that wasn't sugar" to trigger the natural suspicions this drill would cause. Dummies.

Or... subtract "get caught" and suddenly it does make more sense and remembering what you debunkers always say: all big conspiracies get exposed, they get too greedy and can't keep it secret, etc... well, here we are, a big conspiracy exposed, and where are we?

[Mobertermy]

Well, I looked into this a little and I have to admit it definitely looks like the Russians did it. My initial thought was that it didnt make sense because I thought Russia was already at war with Chechnya. The fact that the police caught FSB agents and then they changed their story is pretty damning evidence. A couple questions. Did the 911 truth movement use this incident as some kind of model to base their conpiracy on because the parallels are almost exact? I'm surprised they dont bring it up all the time. Secondly, given how much evidence there is that it was done by Russia do most Russians believe it was Chechnya or Russia? What do American history books say about this?

[CHF]

Caustic Logic,

Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not using religious fanaticism to imply, as you put it, that "they're Muslim crazy, they like to get attacked and conquered by us, etc."

That argument annoys me too.

As I outlined above, there are possible strategic reasons for the Chechens to have staged the 1999 bombings: revenge for Dagestan and the desire to provoke a Russian response and spread Islamic revolution.

However, no matter how one slices it, the Chechens would have had to be insane to do that. The benefits were all hypothetical while the dangers were guaranteed.

So perhaps the best reason to consider that the Chechens did it is the fact that they do have a track-record of such horrible large-scale attacks - mass hostage taking at a hospital in 1995, Moscow 2002, Beslan 2004, etc.

BUT...the difference between these attacks and 1999 is also clear: those other attacks were aimed at driving Russia out of Chechnya, while in 1999 Chechnya had its freedom.

You're 100% right - in raw "who benefits" terms, the advantages to the Russian government are far more clear and straightforward: the "inside job" attacks would have been easy to stage, and launched the war the government wanted to wage; a war upon which Putin built his popular image and reputation, and the resurgence of Russia as a power.

For me it yet againt comes down to one question: were the Chechens crazy enough?

The answer depends on which ones.

Chechen President Aslan Mashkhadov? No way! He was a (relative) moderate who wanted independence and peaceful relations with Russia (crucial for Chechnya to survive as a viable state).

Younger, more hot-headed radicals like Khattab and Shamil Busayev? Perhaps.

[Childlike Empress]

Fun fact: When Shamil Basajew was living in London, his direct neighbour was...

Alexander Litvinenko

[CHF]

Fun fact: When Shamil Basajew was living in London, his direct neighbour was...

Alexander Litvinenko

Basajew? What the hell are you...?

Sigh....Nevermind, I don't want to know.

EDIT: ah, an eastern Euro spelling. Thought you were another member of the Truthen-SS for a second.

[Undesired Walrus]

However, no matter how one slices it, the Chechens would have had to be insane to do that. The benefits were all hypothetical while the dangers were guaranteed.

Why did a group claim responsibility then?

[CHF]

Why did a group claim responsibility then?

No Chechen group did.

On September 15, an unidentified man, again speaking with a Caucasian accent, called the ITAR-TASS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITAR-TASS) news agency, claiming to represent a group called the Liberation Army of Dagestan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_Army_of_Dagestan). He said that the explosions in Buynaksk and Moscow were carried out by his organization.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-chronology-7) According to him, the attacks were a retaliation to the deaths of Muslim women and children during Russian air raids in Dagestan. "We will answer death with death," the caller said..[77] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-independent_webofterror-76) Russian officials from both the Interior Ministry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interior_Ministry)FSB (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FSB), at the time, expressed skepticism over the claims.[72] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-murky-71) Sergei Bogdanov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergei_Bogdanov), of the FSB press service in Moscow, said that the words of a previously unknown individual representing a semi-mythical organization should not be considered as reliable. Mr. Bogdanov insisted that the organization had nothing to do with the bombing.[78] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-77) On September 15, 1999 a Dagestani official also denied the existence of a "Dagestan Liberation Army".[79] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings#cite_note-78)


Basayev agreed, at first.


In an interview to the Czech newspaper Lidove Noviny (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidove_Noviny) on September 9 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_9), the Chechen militant Shamil Basayev (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamil_Basayev) said: "The latest blast in Moscow is not our work, but the work of the Dagestanis. Russia has been openly terrorizing Dagestan, it encircled three villages in the centre of Dagestan, did not allow women and children to leave."[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_Army_of_Dagestan#cite_note-bbc_who-5)

But then...


A few days later Basayev denied that islamist fighters were responsible for the blasts, and instead were connected to "Russian domestic politics."[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_Army_of_Dagestan#cite_note-6) In a later interview Basayev said he had no idea who was behind the bombings. "Dagestani’s could have done it, or the Russian special services."[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_Army_of_Dagestan#cite_note-7)


As far as I know the "Liberation Army of Dagestan" hasn't been heard from since. Which of course doesn't mean they didn't blow up those buildings, but it represents a very short-lived terrorist movement indeed.

[WildCat]

However, no matter how one slices it, the Chechens would have had to be insane to do that. The benefits were all hypothetical while the dangers were guaranteed.
This is the flaw in your scenario - the assumption that the perps represented all Chechens, and were part of some official Chechen plan.

It very well could have been rogue hardliners out for revenge, consequences be damned.

[CHF]

This is the flaw in your scenario - the assumption that the perps represented all Chechens, and were part of some official Chechen plan.

It very well could have been rogue hardliners out for revenge, consequences be damned.

Exactly my point.

Chechen President Aslan Mashkhadov? No way! He was a (relative) moderate who wanted independence and peaceful relations with Russia (crucial for Chechnya to survive as a viable state).

Younger, more hot-headed radicals like Khattab and Shamil Busayev? Perhaps.

[WildCat]

Exactly my point.
OK.

[UNLoVedRebel]

"The FSB" did it makes no sense. These are millions of people. Who had a secret network in it and was able to order such an operation?
:i: