Jesus isn't coming back?!

[XxDeadlyNinjaxX]

There is a question on Yahoo Answers that read, "Why can't Christians accept that Jesus is not coming back?"

Here is one response I found interesting.


"We don't accept that Jesus is not coming back, because it says He WILL come back in the Bible, and He also told of the signs before the 'end of the age' or when He comes back.

Check out Revelations when you can (quick note- it is very symbolic)- i don't actually have the time to explain it all... and i'm not fully capable of it either.

Also, in the things Jesus predicted in the Bible, many of them have come true- many point towards His return e.g. the below Bible passage:

Matthew 24.

3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"

4Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,[a]' and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,'[b] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.

26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[c]

30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.


As you can see, much of the above so far is true (earthquakes, wars, nations against nations etc., in fact, the rate of earthquakes, wars, etc. have increased a lot in the last few years.). So you can see that eventually Jesus will return. That's why Christians don't accept that Jesus is not coming back- because Jesus IS coming back.

Jesus coming back is not a false hope."

I think all of this stuff has happened MANY times over the 2000+ years that people have been waiting.:rolleyes:

[AvalonXQ]

A lot of the early part, there, is actually a prophecy about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

[joobz]

A lot of the early part, there, is actually a prophecy about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
It's funny that something called a prophecy when it most likely was written years afterwards.

[Hux]

That's a hell of a response for someone who didn't have much time.

[Marduk]

As you can see, much of the above so far is true (earthquakes, wars, nations against nations etc., in fact, the rate of earthquakes, wars, etc. have increased a lot in the last few years.).

I keep hearing this one, theres been no increase in that stuff, just an increase in the ability to report it
:rolleyes:

[Fnord]

Meh ... it'll happen when it happens ... so eat, drink, and be merry!

[AvalonXQ]

Meh ... it'll happen when it happens ... so eat, drink, and be merry!

... or, be ready for it and look forward to it. Either way. :D

[Arkyrion]

I think there's a passage in the Bible somewhere that states: "The generation which sees the rebirth of the nation of Israel shall see the coming of God."

So. Israel was reformed in...what, late 1940s or so? So, according to the Bible, God has another thirty years or so to make good on the world blowy-uppy.

[AvalonXQ]

I think there's a passage in the Bible somewhere that states: "The generation which sees the rebirth of the nation of Israel shall see the coming of God."

Citation please?

[Mark6]

As you can see, much of the above so far is true (earthquakes, wars, nations against nations etc., in fact, the rate of earthquakes, wars, etc. have increased a lot in the last few years.).
No, it just seems that way -- actually wars have DECREASED a lot in last few years.

This artilcle explains why as violence goes down, our perception of it goes up:

http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/pinker07/pinker07_index.html

On the scale of decades, comprehensive data again paint a shockingly happy picture: Global violence has fallen steadily since the middle of the twentieth century. According to the Human Security Brief 2006, the number of battle deaths in interstate wars has declined from more than 65,000 per year in the 1950s to less than 2,000 per year in this decade. In Western Europe and the Americas, the second half of the century saw a steep decline in the number of wars, military coups, and deadly ethnic riots.

Zooming in by a further power of ten exposes yet another reduction. After the cold war, every part of the world saw a steep drop-off in state-based conflicts, and those that do occur are more likely to end in negotiated settlements rather than being fought to the bitter end. Meanwhile, according to political scientist Barbara Harff, between 1989 and 2005 the number of campaigns of mass killing of civilians decreased by 90 percent.

The decline of killing and cruelty poses several challenges to our ability to make sense of the world. To begin with, how could so many people be so wrong about something so important? Partly, it's because of a cognitive illusion: We estimate the probability of an event from how easy it is to recall examples. Scenes of carnage are more likely to be relayed to our living rooms and burned into our memories than footage of people dying of old age. Partly, it's an intellectual culture that is loath to admit that there could be anything good about the institutions of civilization and Western society. Partly, it's the incentive structure of the activism and opinion markets: No one ever attracted followers and donations by announcing that things keep getting better. And part of the explanation lies in the phenomenon itself. The decline of violent behavior has been paralleled by a decline in attitudes that tolerate or glorify violence, and often the attitudes are in the lead. As deplorable as they are, the abuses at Abu Ghraib and the lethal injections of a few murderers in Texas are mild by the standards of atrocities in human history. But, from a contemporary vantage point, we see them as signs of how low our behavior can sink, not of how high our standards have risen.

So I would not count on Jesus coming back any time soon.

For that matter, how do you know Jesus had not come back already? Perhaps during his disciples lifetime, since he explicitely prophecised that? Perhaps he did, and few virtuous were saved, and we all live in the "Left Behind" aftermath, and do not even know it?

[XxDeadlyNinjaxX]

For that matter, how do you know Jesus had not come back already? Perhaps during his disciples lifetime, since he explicitely prophecised that? Perhaps he did, and few virtuous were saved, and we all live in the "Left Behind" aftermath, and do not even know it?

That is very interesting :D

[Fnord]

I think there's a passage in the Bible somewhere that states: "The generation which sees the rebirth of the nation of Israel shall see the coming of God."

Citation please?

The closest I can find is this:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (King James Version)


15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Another is referenced by Wikipedia:


In his popular book, The Late Great Planet Earth, first published in 1970, Hal Lindsey argued that prophetical information in Matthew 24 indicates that the “generation” witnessing the “rebirth of Israel” is the same generation that will observe the fulfillment of the “signs” referred to in Matthew 24:1-33 (http://www.biblegateway.com/bible?passage=Matthew%2024:1-33;&version=TNIV;) — and that would be consummated by the second coming of Christ in approximately 1988. He dated it from the “rebirth of Israel” in 1948, and took a generation to be “something like forty years.” Lindsey later stretched his forty-year timetable to as long as one hundred years, writing that he was no longer certain that the terminal "generation" commenced with the rebirth of Israel.


As far as I can tell, there is no explicit and unambiguous Biblical passage that supports Arkyrion's claim.

[icerat]

That's a hell of a response for someone who didn't have much time.

ctrl-C ctrl-V doesn't take long :cool:

[arthwollipot]

As far as I can tell, there is no explicit and unambiguous Biblical passageFixed it for ya. :p

[Ron_Tomkins]

I'm Jesus.

Sorry I'm late. I took the wrong detour.

[Thunder]

There is a question on Yahoo Answers that read, "Why can't Christians accept that Jesus is not coming back?"

I'm sorry, are you suggesting he was ever here in the first place????

[tyr_13]

One guy thought I was ninja Jesus for Halloween this year. (I was an oni.)

[XxDeadlyNinjaxX]

I'm sorry, are you suggesting he was ever here in the first place????

I am not suggesting it, the guys who presented the question to the Yahoo community was.

[bobcarp]

Given enough time, any prophecy will come true.

Wars will increase
wars will decrease
There will be an increase in earthquakes
There will be a decrease in earthquakes
The economy will improve
The economy will struggle
The climates in each reagion of earth will change
In the next several thousand years Isreal will cease to be, and then again become a nation.
The Cubs will win the World Ser..... well, maybe not ALL prophecies.

[edge]

"Watch out that no one deceives you."

Why all the fear about it I'll never know, the bottom line is no one can say when.
Do the best you can love your neighbor and your God the father.
Some one pulled the triger for the big bang, it is all about moving forward, do it the best you can.
What ever it takes for you...

[MattusMaximus]

Jesus will return to Earth right after Santa Claus, Muhammed, Vishnu, Thor, and the Easter Bunny get done spreading joy & good cheer to all the children of the world.

Give me a break folks. Don't people ever get tired of playing the same damned broken record over and over and over again?

Bottom line: live your life, because this is the only one you've got. Even if you believe in a hypothetical afterlife, why not give this life (you know, the real one we all agree exists) the best shot possible?

Sheesh :rolleyes:

[godless dave]

People don't come back from the dead. It's that simple.

[XxDeadlyNinjaxX]

Bottom line: live your life, because this is the only one you've got. Even if you believe in a hypothetical afterlife, why not give this life (you know, the real one we all agree exists) the best shot possible?


Very true, some waste their lives worrying about the afterlife >.<

[CurtC]

It's funny that something called a prophecy when it most likely was written years afterwards.

For Matthew, yes. The consensus view is that Mark was written during those years, so the bit about the destruction of the second temple would have been written very soon after it was destroyed.

[edge]

People don't come back from the dead. It's that simple.

Not true.

[MattusMaximus]

Not true.

Evidence?

And please, don't quote the Bible to me, or I'll start quoting the Koran to you :rolleyes:

[godless dave]

Other than people being revived after a few minutes of no heartbeat, I, too, would be interested in seeing evidence of people coming back from the dead, Edge.

[Eyeron]

Duncan McCloud.

[squareone]

I sense something about this jesus
a blue car
trees
no wait
he is near a body of water

[Ausmerican]

For Matthew, yes. The consensus view is that Mark was written during those years, so the bit about the destruction of the second temple would have been written very soon after it was destroyed.

Which would make it reporting, but again, not prophecy.

[Ausmerican]

Duncan McCloud.

MacCleod.

[RandFan]

Thank you Jesus. No.

[Hokulele]

Jesus has left the house.



Uh-uh-huh.

[fuelair]

Heard he sent a message: Hell with this nailing up crap, I'm going for a bunch of virgins!!

[godless dave]

Other than people being revived after a few minutes of no heartbeat, I, too, would be interested in seeing evidence of people coming back from the dead, Edge.

Edge?

[kurious_kathy]

People don't come back from the dead. It's that simple.
Your right there are not ghosts. But people who are saved do in fact go on to the second life which will be for all eternity, and everyone else who denies Christ will suffer a second death in hell.

Everyone has a soul which will go on after our flesh dies. It's heaven or hell for everyone. So basically it's, "Turn or burn!" If we confess our sins then he is faithful to forgive us, but if you deny you are a sinner, woe to you.

[Hokulele]

Eveyone has a soul which will go on after this flesh dies.


Evidence?

[kurious_kathy]

There is a question on Yahoo Answers that read, "Why can't Christians accept that Jesus is not coming back?"

Here is one response I found interesting.


"We don't accept that Jesus is not coming back, because it says He WILL come back in the Bible, and He also told of the signs before the 'end of the age' or when He comes back.

Check out Revelations when you can (quick note- it is very symbolic)- i don't actually have the time to explain it all... and i'm not fully capable of it either.

Also, in the things Jesus predicted in the Bible, many of them have come true- many point towards His return e.g. the below Bible passage:

Matthew 24.

3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"

4Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,[a]' and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,'[b] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.

26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[c]

30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.


As you can see, much of the above so far is true (earthquakes, wars, nations against nations etc., in fact, the rate of earthquakes, wars, etc. have increased a lot in the last few years.). So you can see that eventually Jesus will return. That's why Christians don't accept that Jesus is not coming back- because Jesus IS coming back.

Jesus coming back is not a false hope."

I think all of this stuff has happened MANY times over the 2000+ years that people have been waiting.:rolleyes:

Has this happened yet?
Isaiah 13 9-13 is clear...
9 See, the day of the LORD is coming
—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—
to make the land desolate
and destroy the sinners within it.

10 The stars of heaven and their constellations
will not show their light.
The rising sun will be darkened
and the moon will not give its light.

11 I will punish the world for its evil,
the wicked for their sins.
I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty
and will humble the pride of the ruthless.

12 I will make man scarcer than pure gold,
more rare than the gold of Ophir.

13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble;
and the earth will shake from its place
at the wrath of the LORD Almighty,
in the day of his burning anger.

[Elizabeth I]

Has this happened yet?
Isaiah 13 9-13 is clear...
9 See, the day of the LORD is coming
—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—
to make the land desolate
and destroy the sinners within it.

10 The stars of heaven and their constellations
will not show their light.
The rising sun will be darkened
and the moon will not give its light.

11 I will punish the world for its evil,
the wicked for their sins.
I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty
and will humble the pride of the ruthless.

12 I will make man scarcer than pure gold,
more rare than the gold of Ophir.

13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble;
and the earth will shake from its place
at the wrath of the LORD Almighty,
in the day of his burning anger.

Oh, look. She quotes the Bible to prove that the Bible is true. How...repetitive. And boring.

[kuroyume0161]

kurious_kathy:

Evidence! Not human words printed in a book. Does the concept of EVIDENCE (as in scientific data) stretch your brain too far?

Prove to me, everyone, using observation, repeatable experimentation, and data thereof that after a person is dead, no more, bereft of life, kicked the bucket, etc and so as the dead parrot goes, there is another living form they take as a soul in an afterlife.

I'll check back in about two thousands years.

[Hokulele]

Has this happened yet?
Isaiah 13 9-13 is clear...
9 See, the day of the LORD is coming
—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—
to make the land desolate
and destroy the sinners within it.

10 The stars of heaven and their constellations
will not show their light.
The rising sun will be darkened
and the moon will not give its light.

11 I will punish the world for its evil,
the wicked for their sins.
I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty
and will humble the pride of the ruthless.

12 I will make man scarcer than pure gold,
more rare than the gold of Ophir.

13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble;
and the earth will shake from its place
at the wrath of the LORD Almighty,
in the day of his burning anger.


Yeah, that sounds like just the kind of violent prick I want to have a personal relationship with. :rolleyes:

[calebprime]

Your right there are not ghosts. But people who are saved do in fact go on to the second life which will be for all eternity, and everyone else who denies Christ will suffer a second death in hell.

Everyone has a soul which will go on after our flesh dies. It's heaven or hell for everyone. So basically it's, "Turn or burn!" If we confess our sins then he is faithful to forgive us, but if you deny you are a sinner, woe to you.

You so gloomy.

[Captain.Sassy]

Jesus is back and you're gonna be in trouble...
heyla, heyla, the Christ is back..
When you see him coming, start praying on the double...
Heyla, heyla, the Christ is back...
You've been spreading lies that the Bible isn't truueee...
Heyla, heyla, the Christ is back...
So look out sinner cause he's comin' after yoouuuu...
Heyla, heyla, the Christ is back...

[Red3]

Your right there are not ghosts. But people who are saved do in fact go on to the second life which will be for all eternity, and everyone else who denies Christ will suffer a second death in hell.

Everyone has a soul which will go on after our flesh dies. It's heaven or hell for everyone. So basically it's, "Turn or burn!" If we confess our sins then he is faithful to forgive us, but if you deny you are a sinner, woe to you.

Are you for real? Or have I just been slapped in the face by Poe's Law?

[Pure Argent]

Your right there are not ghosts. But people who are saved do in fact go on to the second life which will be for all eternity, and everyone else who denies Christ will suffer a second death in hell.

Everyone has a soul which will go on after our flesh dies. It's heaven or hell for everyone. So basically it's, "Turn or burn!" If we confess our sins then he is faithful to forgive us, but if you deny you are a sinner, woe to you.

Bare assertion.

Are you for real? Or have I just been slapped in the face by Poe's Law?

She's fo realsies. KK has been here a while, and in all that time has done nothing but spout unsubstantiated claims about sin, Jesus, Hell, etc.

[AvalonXQ]

Oh, look. She quotes the Bible to prove that the Bible is true help understand what another part of the Bible says.
Fixed that for you.

[Red3]

She's fo realsies. KK has been here a while, and in all that time has done nothing but spout unsubstantiated claims about sin, Jesus, Hell, etc.

Frightening. :jaw-dropp

[CurtC]

Has this happened yet?
Isaiah 13 9-13 is clear...

Considering all that was written about events 2600 years ago, I'd say yeah, it's already happened.

[Elizabeth I]

Oh, look. She quotes the Bible to prove that the Bible is true help understand what another part of the Bible says.

Fixed that for you.

Um, no. Stick around. KK explains nothing, discusses nothing, provides evidence for nothing. She quotes the Bible and preaches. Period.

[edge]

Yeah, that sounds like just the kind of violent prick I want to have a personal relationship with. :rolleyes:
Your attitude and life style is what you are in love with, to love the word and Jesus you would have to turn from everything that is wrong which you won't do because of your lifestyle that you love above the creator, the father, so there fore the blasphemy that you spout.
It makes you angry because deep down you know it’s wrong, so you are angry or your inner being is angry with yourself because that being knows what you won’t accept and fix. It’s telling your consciousness but you love something more so you are stuck.
The medical community provides evidence for resurrection; we have been over this before.

You trust the medical community why?… because it is based on the most advanced science you can use for saving lives and the ability to live longer, but you forget where and what science is.
I’ll tell ya… it all comes from the father, the creator, all the knowledge was in place before the big bang.

If you want true evidence look deep inside, I know the inner being in you is perfect, in all of us, it is our free will that corrupts the soul and your soul is crying and angry with you, that brings up doubt, you want that doubt to disappear so you come in here everyday checking for physical evidence of a creator and all you have to do is simple, walk with God and it will be reveled to you.

Prove that the science of medicine is flawed, their machines, the knowledge they have up to this day, links.
If you can prove that then I won’t be going to see doctors and dentists anymore but I know their knowledge comes from higher up they are blessed.

How could their technology be flawed if it is accepted by science and the F.D.A.?

The only prick is in here spouting… oh wait you are a female, uhmm… what does it mean????
What classification should we give you?
Dammed? So you are going against the word... so you want him to change his mind about your lifestyle... but you know that is not happening, you soul knows this, do you know why?

http://bibleprobe.com/nde.htm

http://bibleprobe.com/miracles.htm

[Red3]

The medical community provides evidence for resurrection; we have been over this before.



Does it? Where? When?

[Hokulele]

Your attitude and life style is what you are in love with, to love the word and Jesus you would have to turn from everything that is wrong which you won't do because of your lifestyle that you love above the creator, the father, so there fore the blasphemy that you spout.

It makes you angry because deep down you know it’s wrong, so you are angry or your inner being is angry with yourself because that being knows what you won’t accept and fix. It’s telling your consciousness but you love something more so you are stuck.


What makes me angry is when people use the bible to try and convince me that I am somehow inherently evil. These are very often people who know absolutely nothing about my life and the choices I have made. I am not angry because I truly, deeply believe I am wrong. I have no problem with being shown to be wrong, heck, I am wrong on a regular basis and have adjusted my thinking on various topics.

The thing is, I want to be shown I am wrong, not just have some sanctimonious attitude thrown at me without any justification.

The medical community provides evidence for resurrection; we have been over this before.


Yes, we have. The evidence is inconclusive, and since you consider that means it doesn't prove you wrong, you assume that proves you are right. Critical thinking doesn't work that way. As a pragmatic assumption it works for you, which is fine, I don't want you to lose your beliefs, but it doesn't work for me. Please do not assume that it should.

You trust the medical community why?… because it is based on the most advanced science you can use for saving lives and the ability to live longer, but you forget where and what science is.
I’ll tell ya… it all comes from the father, the creator, all the knowledge was in place before the big bang.


Again, that is an assumption that doesn't work for me.

If you want true evidence look deep inside, I know the inner being in you is perfect, in all of us, it is our free will that corrupts the soul and your soul is crying and angry with you, that brings up doubt, you want that doubt to disappear so you come in here everyday checking for physical evidence of a creator and all you have to do is simple, walk with God and it will be reveled to you.


Odd, kurious_kathy assumes that our inner being is filthy and evil. You can't both be right.

Prove that the science of medicine is flawed, their machines, the knowledge they have up to this day, links.
If you can prove that then I won’t be going to see doctors and dentists anymore but I know their knowledge comes from higher up they are blessed.

How could their technology be flawed if it is accepted by science and the F.D.A.?


Because, unlike the existence of your God, it has been demonstrated to work to my satisfaction. There are any number of people for whom modern medicine is untrustworthy. See the SMMT forum for numerous examples.

The only prick is in here spouting… oh wait you are a female, uhmm… what does it mean????
What classification should we give you?
Dammed? So you are going against the word... so you want him to change his mind about your lifestyle... but you know that is not happening, you soul knows this, do you know why?


No, any creature that would have ultimate power and choose to use that to torture and destroy its own creations is a violent, uncontrollable prick. Excuses for that sort of behavior is very disturbing, especially coming from someone who believes God is love. My favorite definition of love is "when someone else's happiness is more important than your own." Can that sentiment really be applied to the quote kurious_kathy provided?

And just for the record, I do not believe in a soul, so although your last question is well-meant, it doesn't apply to me.

[CORed]

As you can see, much of the above so far is true (earthquakes, wars, nations against nations etc., in fact, the rate of earthquakes, wars, etc. have increased a lot in the last few years.). So you can see that eventually Jesus will return. That's why Christians don't accept that Jesus is not coming back- because Jesus IS coming back.


When in human history haven't there been wars and earthquakes. It doesn't narrow it down a whole lot, does it?

[Cainkane1]

I've heard some xcian sects say that since 2000 years is only a moment to Jehovah then he only made these predictions a moment ago. Lets give him a few moments.

[Cainkane1]

Your right there are not ghosts. But people who are saved do in fact go on to the second life which will be for all eternity, and everyone else who denies Christ will suffer a second death in hell.

Everyone has a soul which will go on after our flesh dies. It's heaven or hell for everyone. So basically it's, "Turn or burn!" If we confess our sins then he is faithful to forgive us, but if you deny you are a sinner, woe to you.
Evidence?

[Cainkane1]

Has this happened yet?
Isaiah 13 9-13 is clear...
9 See, the day of the LORD is coming
—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—
to make the land desolate
and destroy the sinners within it.

10 The stars of heaven and their constellations
will not show their light.
The rising sun will be darkened
and the moon will not give its light.

11 I will punish the world for its evil,
the wicked for their sins.
I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty
and will humble the pride of the ruthless.

12 I will make man scarcer than pure gold,
more rare than the gold of Ophir.

13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble;
and the earth will shake from its place
at the wrath of the LORD Almighty,
in the day of his burning anger.
Well as i recall we have ahd an eclipse or two. Let me ask you a question kathy. Doesn't this kind, just loving God of yours ever do anything nice? Since the overwhelming majority of the human race is going to roast in an eternal fire with worms chewing on them and demons gleefully joining in the torture it would be heartening to see some evidence as to the goodness of this man in the sky of yours.

[Cainkane1]

I'll believe in resurrection when a skeletal body is exhumed from a grave before my eyes and the corpse becomes alive again.

[AvalonXQ]

I've heard some xcian sects say that since 2000 years is only a moment to Jehovah then he only made these predictions a moment ago. Lets give him a few moments.

"God?"
"Yes, My son?"
"Is it true that to You, a million years is like a minute?"
"Yes."
"And is it true that to You, a million dollars is a penny?"
"That's right."
"... God?"
"Yes, My son?"
"Could I have a penny?"
"In a minute."

[Pure Argent]

Your attitude and life style is what you are in love with, to love the word and Jesus you would have to turn from everything that is wrong which you won't do because of your lifestyle that you love above the creator, the father, so there fore the blasphemy that you spout.

ENGLISH TRANSLATION: You're a sinner, and you won't stop sinning and love my god because you love sinning.

There! Much easier to read. Anyway.

The problem with this, edge, is that, for any part of your argument to be valid, you must not only prove that a god exists, but that the god which exists is specifically your god. The one that holds your values, morals, etc. This you haven't done, so your entire argument is baseless.

It makes you angry because deep down you know it’s wrong, so you are angry or your inner being is angry with yourself because that being knows what you won’t accept and fix. It’s telling your consciousness but you love something more so you are stuck.

Nice psychoanalysis there. You have no idea what anyone on this forum feels about anything, beyond what they post on the board for all to see.
And, as an atheist, I can assure you that I am in no way angry at myself for not obeying the orders of an imaginary being.

The medical community provides evidence for resurrection; we have been over this before.

Yes, we have, and no, it doesn't.

You trust the medical community why?… because it is based on the most advanced science you can use for saving lives and the ability to live longer,

Well, the fact that it's been shown to work kinda helps a lot, too.

but you forget where

Whaaaaa?

and what science is.

I’ll tell ya… it all comes from the father, the creator, all the knowledge was in place before the big bang.

Yeah, nice try. Again, you have to prove that your god exists before you can try to give it credit for anything.

If you want true evidence look deep inside, I know the inner being in you is perfect, in all of us, it is our free will that corrupts the soul and your soul is crying and angry with you, that brings up doubt, you want that doubt to disappear so you come in here everyday checking for physical evidence of a creator and all you have to do is simple, walk with God and it will be reveled to you.

Nice try, again, with the psychoanalysis, but you are still way off the mark. I have no doubt about the non-existence of your god, because I am a skeptic. I require evidence before I accept claims. There is no evidence for the existence of the god you claim we want to know to exist. That's another thing, too - if your god existed, I wouldn't worship him, because he's an evil meany-face.

Prove that the science of medicine is flawed, their machines, the knowledge they have up to this day, links.
If you can prove that then I won’t be going to see doctors and dentists anymore but I know their knowledge comes from higher up they are blessed.

How could their technology be flawed if it is accepted by science and the F.D.A.?

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?

:drool:

DOES NOT COMPUTE

Seriously, man, what are you talking about? I cannot make any sense of this whatsoever.

The only prick is in here spouting… oh wait you are a female, uhmm… what does it mean????
What classification should we give you?
Dammed? So you are going against the word... so you want him to change his mind about your lifestyle... but you know that is not happening, you soul knows this, do you know why?

Again, you have no evidence for the existence of your god, or for that of the existence of a soul. We accept the existence of neither of these things. So why, pray tell, would an atheist be particularly bothered about what one nonexistent thing feels about another?

[Pure Argent]

"God?"
"Yes, My son?"
"Is it true that to You, a million years is like a minute?"
"Yes."
"And is it true that to You, a million dollars is a penny?"
"That's right."
"... God?"
"Yes, My son?"
"Could I have a penny?"
"In a minute."

I had entirely forgotten that joke. You almost made me choke on my Dum-Dum Pop.

[AvalonXQ]

We use seriousness to understand life.
We use humor to enjoy it.

[Pure Argent]

We use seriousness to understand life.
We use humor to enjoy it.

I'm pretty sure I do it the other way around. Kinda like Terry Pratchett.

[godless dave]

The medical community provides evidence for resurrection; we have been over this before.

Really? I would love to see some of this evidence.

[eccles]

Everyone knows Jesus is here. He was seen leaving a McDonalds with Elvis and Whacko Jacko.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_338944aacecc54aa5e.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=17545)

[Foster Zygote]

Everyone knows Jesus is here. He was seen leaving a McDonalds with Elvis and Whacko Jacko.

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_338944aacecc54aa5e.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=17545)

And he was holding a menu from Lee Ho Fook's.

[edge]

:
Prove that the science of medicine is flawed, their machines, the knowledge they have up to this day, links.
If you can prove that then I won’t be going to see doctors and dentists anymore but I know their knowledge comes from higher up they are blessed.

How could their technology be flawed if it is accepted by science and the F.D.A.?
You:
Because, unlike the existence of your God, it has been demonstrated to work to my satisfaction. There are any number of people for whom modern medicine is untrustworthy. See the SMMT forum for numerous examples.

Me:
So if it works then when they pronounce people dead in all respects and they bury them we have to assume they are correct.

But there are many who come back with the same story before that process is completed but we are so sure of the technology. So there are many "resurrected", and all have the same story to tell, that is that there is an after life, not only that but soul is verified through meditation, so do what I did find out....there's your evidence once that happens, no one can change your mind.
Anything that is positive you won't believe or deny holding on to your beliefs.
I could care less if you deny what I find funny is how you deny logic and accept the negative logic just to hold on to your beliefs or should I say anti-beliefs?
You don't have to have religion to meditate so your belief or anti-belief is safe for now.

[edge]

So lets see... A hospital is able to be correct 100,000 times and then one time it is not because some one comes back then those machines are correct another 100 1000 times and it happens somewhere else some other town but the stories match, nine times out of ten, then those machines must have been wrong and we have accidentally buried live people, I am sure that has happened too, maybe one out of a million times, but for the most part they perform flawlessly till they are upgraded???

[George152]

that pile of 2000 year old bones turning up is going to look just like any pile of 2000 year old bones and will be just as vocal.

[godless dave]

So, still no evidence of people coming back from the dead?

[Hux]

And where are the ones now, who came back from the dead? Would their existence not be a neat bit of evidence? Or was it a temporary gig?

[Foster Zygote]

So there are many "resurrected", and all have the same story to tell...

It's very appropriate that you used quotations in the above sentence. There is a huge difference between having a cardiac arrest while in a hospital and actually being dead. People report very similar experiences because they are all experiencing the same physical effect of reduced oxygen flow to the brain. The same effects are experienced by military pilots who black out during high gee loading in training exercises. People fill in the blanks with whatever cultural experiences and expectations they are familiar with.

[Foster Zygote]

So lets see... A hospital is able to be correct 100,000 times and then one time it is not because some one comes back then those machines are correct another 100 1000 times and it happens somewhere else some other town but the stories match, nine times out of ten, then those machines must have been wrong and we have accidentally buried live people, I am sure that has happened too, maybe one out of a million times, but for the most part they perform flawlessly till they are upgraded???

What are you talking about? Doctors don't rely on machines to pronounce death. They use the machines to monitor a patient's vital signs but they use their own judgment to determine when someone is dead.

And how are people going to be buried alive? Most bodies are embalmed prior to burial.

[godless dave]

Edge this thread is about someone coming back to life after being dead for almost 2000 years, not after a few minutes of cardiac arrest.

[Foster Zygote]

Edge this thread is about someone coming back to life after being dead for almost 2000 years, not after a few minutes of cardiac arrest.

In which case they weren't even dead. In great danger of dying? Sure. But never dead.

[kuroyume0161]

It's hard to 'come back from the dead' if you never existed in the first place.

* We can argue circles around whether or not there was an actual real normal person that inspired the Jesus myth till were blue. The facts are that the one portrayed in the NT never existed except in the minds of the writers.

[edge]

Edge this thread is about someone coming back to life after being dead for almost 2000 years, not after a few minutes of cardiac arrest.

Yes because he was ressurected And we are to come back here also in the same manner.
A few minutes? some of these are a few days or hours.
Everything he experianced we will experiance, dave read up.
From this perspective we to will come back.
those that come back do so for a reason, just like the Christ, the only difference is that,our physical bodys aren't pure enough to accend to the Father like Jesus.

In which case they weren't even dead. In great danger of dying? Sure. But never dead.
Really?

So your saying the science of the machines involved is some how flawed?
But you guys are in love and almost worship science how can that be?

So some how what you are in utter absolute in love with and totally believe in, the method, the science based gadgets the theories, but they must be are flawed?

And so how can you believe they weren't dead when the doctors, nurses’ witness this believe this but you don't using the most advance stuff?

Why would they write about these extraordinary miracles and even call them that?
These so called professionals?

Look at this planet the life the shear abundance and all that have ever been here and vanished.... come On!

I can understand why you are skeptical and have never experienced proof, and it is undeniable proof to people who have, mark my word one day you will and you will turn we all do, but I won’t call you names for your belief or the main person you follow into this belief, you know why? Because you will see eventually.

I was twice a skeptic and those thoughts pop up in my head too, that logic…. But it doesn’t work for me anymore.



So I can't blame you.

Science is about decay.

Real fast decay is a good thing too if you can accelerate it move it quickly, that's why BBQs are so good.

It's all about moving forward, through time.

We will all see the second coming of the Christ at death ,that's what those N.D.Es in general are, and so will the planet and all still on it at that time.
That's it in a nutshell.

The other thing is that he will let you go in the dark the nothingness, if that's what you want to believe in, it is your choice and even there you can come out of it , also proved by those darn N.D.Es..
But not all, that's what is reveled.

I can tell you this there are others… they’re waiting.
I have experienced that!
I have also seen the good over there, they are both there.
Is it real or Memorex?
Just keep in your head there is a point of no return.

[Foster Zygote]

It's hard to 'come back from the dead' if you never existed in the first place.

* We can argue circles around whether or not there was an actual real normal person that inspired the Jesus myth till were blue. The facts are that the one portrayed in the NT never existed except in the minds of the writers.

Quite right.

For the record, I think that there most likely was an apocalyptic rabbi named Jeshua ben Joseph in the early first century who preached that the "Son of Man" would come soon to drive out the enemies of Israel and establish a righteous "Kingdom of God" on Earth. This was a fairly standard apocalyptic message and had been for around a hundred years. It seems that this Jeshua ben Joseph ran afoul of the Roman authorities and was executed.

The character of Jesus, created in the decades after Jeshua ben Joseph's execution, is almost entirely fictional. I think that Jeshua ben Joseph would be very surprised, perhaps even outraged, to learn what would come to be taught about him and his message. In fact, it might have really honked him off to no end to learn that the strange religion named for him would one day become the official religion of the hated Roman Empire.

[pakeha]

Hi, I'm a latecomer to the thread and catching up.



...Science is about decay.

Real fast decay is a good thing too if you can accelerate it move it quickly, that's why BBQs are so good.

It's all about moving forward, through time.

We will all see the second coming of the Christ at death ,that's what those N.D.Es in general are, and so will the planet and all still on it at that time.
That's it in a nutshell.

The other thing is that he will let you go in the dark the nothingness, if that's what you want to believe in, it is your choice and even there you can come out of it , also proved by those darn N.D.Es..
But not all, that's what is reveled.

I can tell you this there are others… they’re waiting.
I have experienced that!
I have also seen the good over there, they are both there.
Is it real or Memorex?
Just keep in your head there is a point of no return.

Could someone translate this please? I can't make heads or tails of it, except that NDAs are being citing to 'prove' the Second Coming.

[Foster Zygote]

Really?
Yes, really. What is so hard for you to understand about this point? People who are in an emergency room or operating theater who experience a cardiac arrest are not literally dead the very moment that their heart stops beating any more than I am literally drowned the moment I hold my breath and dive into a pool. Trained medical professionals take measures to assure that oxygen flow to the brain is maintained until heart and lung function can be restored. Just because some people like to refer to this dangerous medical situation by saying something like "I/He/She died on the operating table for a few minutes" does not make it true that the person was literally dead.

To support your claim that Jesus rose from the dead because it happens all the time (which would seem to reduce the resurrection to something rather non-miraculous) you need to provide evidence that people regularly die, are left for dead, and then return to life after a couple of days.

So your saying the science of the machines involved is some how flawed?
Where did I say anything of the sort? I said that machines are used to monitor vital signs like heart rate and respiration. Doctors are the ones who make a determination of death, not the machines.

But you guys are in love and almost worship science how can that be?

So some how what you are in utter absolute in love with and totally believe in, the method, the science based gadgets the theories, but they must be are flawed?
You dropped some straw over here.

And so how can you believe they weren't dead when the doctors, nurses’ witness this believe this but you don't using the most advance stuff?

Why would they write about these extraordinary miracles and even call them that?
These so called professionals?
What miracles? Show us.

Look at this planet the life the shear abundance and all that have ever been here and vanished.... come On!
And that has what to do with this?

I can understand why you are skeptical and have never experienced proof, and it is undeniable proof to people who have, mark my word one day you will and you will turn we all do, but I won’t call you names for your belief or the main person you follow into this belief, you know why? Because you will see eventually.
Are you saying that you have personally witnessed a dead body come back to life?

I was twice a skeptic and those thoughts pop up in my head too, that logic…. But it doesn’t work for me anymore.
I honestly don't mean this as a base insult, but I have never seen you demonstrate any understanding of any logical method. In fact, you've continually shown profound ignorance of science and logic.

Science is about decay.
No, it is not.

Science is quite literally a method of investigation. It is not "about" anything other than what we can learn about how the universe works. The irony of your cynical and dismissive statement is that science has revealed to us that we are the result of a cumulative process of evolution that is the very opposite of decay. Particles evolved to become atoms in the wake of the Big Bang. Atoms evolved in the crucible of the stars to become the chemical elements. Chemical elements evolve to become everything from planets to amino acids. Amino acids evolved to become self replicating molecules. Those molecules evolved to become life. Science has shown that given enough billions of years hydrogen atoms can become you and me. There is decay. One day we will all be dead and much of our structure will succumb to to laws of thermodynamics. But our children and grandchildren will continue the cycle of life and evolution. How is that "about decay"?

[Snipped unsubstantiated fantasy.]

[Skeptic Guy]

There is a question on Yahoo Answers that read, "Why can't Christians accept that Jesus is not coming back?"

Here is one response I found interesting.


[B](SNIP)- i don't actually have the time to explain it all... and i'm not fully capable of it either.

(SNIP)


I would have stopped reading there.

[Foster Zygote]

Hi, I'm a latecomer to the thread and catching up. Could someone translate this please? I can't make heads or tails of it, except that NDAs are being citing to 'prove' the Second Coming.

Don't forget: "Religion good. Science bad."

[RandFan]

2,000+ Years.

Any day now because these ARE the last days. Is there any time limit Christians would be willing to place on the whole notion, turn of the lights and go home? 3,000? 4,000? 8,000?

It isn't going to happen.

[pakeha]

Ah, now I get it.
Thanks, Foster Zygote!

[Beerina]

I think there's a passage in the Bible somewhere that states: "The generation which sees the rebirth of the nation of Israel shall see the coming of God."

So. Israel was reformed in...what, late 1940s or so? So, according to the Bible, God has another thirty years or so to make good on the world blowy-uppy.

It's been pointed out that the reason the Christian right supports Israel so vociferously is this exactly. And it's very cynical because the next step is its destruction, or the releasing of Satan, or whatever. I.e. they don't love Israel because they're Nice People, but because it's the next thing on God's hit list of the End Times.

[godless dave]

Yes because he was ressurected And we are to come back here also in the same manner.
A few minutes? some of these are a few days or hours.

Days? Really?

[Hux]

As I understand it, some Aztec Gods are coming back. Why are they not taken seriously?

[edge]

A serpent able to fly Quetzalcoatl.
Funny how a culture on the other side of the globe sees the other end with out all the information.

"Lost White Brother," and they expected his eventual return from the east during which he would destroy the wicked and begin a new era of peace and prosperity called the either the "Fifth World" or the "Sixth World" depending on whether a given system considers our current world to be fourth or fifth, respectively.

One who has power over the air but on the other side of the world he is recognized as Satan.

Then look at what he had them doing in the name of their religion or religious belifes.

[RandFan]

Then look at what he had them doing in the name of their religion or religious belifes.Hmmmm....

Well, in the name of their religious beliefs god's people commited genocide, infanticide, homicide, filicide, slavery, etc., etc. (assuming the Bible is true of course).

Given all of the wanton destruction and untold missery in the name of religion by folks in the bible, I wouldn't go there. No. Not a good idea.

[edge]

Days? Really?

I am talking about regular people and N.D.Es...

Where did I say anything of the sort? I said that machines are used to monitor vital signs like heart rate and respiration. Doctors are the ones who make a determination of death, not the machines.


Doctors call it after reading the machines unless they are making house calls, which hardly happens these days.

Science is quite literally a method of investigation.

It's not just a method it is also an out come of that investigation when it comes to God your out come as some interpose it... is bleak and you dismiss some very good evidence of an after life based on all religions and from the medical field, what ever floats your boat, I'll see ya on the other side, whether you like it or not.

I got As in science and biology so don't even try to disparage me.

If you don’t want to hear my experiences just say so, if there is something not clear ask.


I don't know why I bother.

[edge]

Hmmmm....

Well, in the name of their religious beliefs god's people commited genocide, infanticide, homicide, filicide, slavery, etc., etc. (assuming the Bible is true of course).

Given all of the wanton destruction and untold missery in the name of religion by folks in the bible, I wouldn't go there. No. Not a good idea.

People on either side of the planet back then as well as now are courupt.
But I am telling you seek for your self and you will not find any of that in the true God.
Jesus proved that by everything he did.
He nullifyed all other beliefs.

[RandFan]

Jesus proved that by everything he did. Oddly enough he didn't tell people that owning another person was a pernicious evil.

But I am telling you seek for your self and you will not find any of that in the true God. Where do I seek? How do I know the mind of god? Pray tell not the Bible. That is a very wicked book. If I can't trust the OT why should I trust the NT?

I don't understand why the Bible appears to be moral sentiment of the time if it is god inspired.

I'd rather people not look to the Bible to figure out what to do in the name of their religion. In fact I would rather we lose the Bible as a moral guide altogether.

[Foster Zygote]

I am talking about regular people and N.D.Es...
You're talking about it, but you aren't showing evidence of it.

Doctors call it after reading the machines unless they are making house calls, which hardly happens these days.
Doctors call it after observing that the body cannot sustain life functions any longer. The monitors are just more sophisticated means of making the same sort of observations one makes when feeling for a pulse. When the brain has been starved of oxygen for too long there is no recovering. It doesn't take long for anoxia to destroy a brain. This is real death. People who have "near death experiences" ( note the word "near") do not experience death. Their brains still function because someone is taking heroic measures to make sure that the flow of oxygenated blood to the brain is sustained.

It's not just a method it is also an out come of that investigation when it comes to God your out come as some interpose it... is bleak...
There is nothing bleak about it. Unless of course you are so terrified of death that even the prospect of passing out of existence after living a long, rich life and leaving future generations to experience the wonders of life for themselves leaves you desperate. Unless you really feel that the only way your existence can have any meaning is for you, personally, to exist forever. Unless you can't imagine the universe getting along without you.

You didn't exist for billions of years prior to your birth. Do you look back prior to your existence with dread? If not, then why should you fear your future nonexistence? You can't experience nonexistence. You can only experience life. Make the most of it. Enjoy it, drink in its beauty, pass on your love to others, especially those who will inherit the Earth after you are gone.

...and you dismiss some very good evidence of an after life based on all religions and from the medical field,...
No. I dismiss poorly documented anecdotes and unsubstantiated fairy tales. I have yet to see any evidence of an afterlife.

...what ever floats your boat, I'll see ya on the other side, whether you like it or not.
I very much doubt that. But if you do I'll gladly buy you what passes for a beer in the afterlife.

I got As in science and biology so don't even try to disparage me.
In high school?

I'm simply stating facts. You have shown profound ignorance of the methods and observations of science.

If you don’t want to hear my experiences just say so, if there is something not clear ask.
Did you have a near death experience?

[Foster Zygote]

People on either side of the planet back then as well as now are courupt.
So, if the Mesoamericans did bad things because they were led by an evil god, then what are we to make of the bad things done by the followers of YHWH?

But I am telling you seek for your self and you will not find any of that in the true God.
So the god of Abraham is not the true god?

Jesus proved that by everything he did.
Like condoning slavery?

He nullifyed all other beliefs.
And that's why there are no longer any other beliefs.

[The Platypus]

Your right there are not ghosts. But people who are saved do in fact go on to the second life which will be for all eternity, and everyone else who denies Christ will suffer a second death in hell.

Everyone has a soul which will go on after our flesh dies. It's heaven or hell for everyone. So basically it's, "Turn or burn!" If we confess our sins then he is faithful to forgive us, but if you deny you are a sinner, woe to you.

Sounds like something a child made up to ease the fear of death and so they can say "na na nana na" at others for not being in their secret club...

[kuroyume0161]

People on either side of the planet back then as well as now are courupt.

And that says what? People are people?

But I am telling you seek for your self and you will not find any of that in the true God.

Really. No corruption in the RCC or any other christian sect? Wow. Those 1700 years that say otherwise must all be conspiracy! :eek:

Jesus proved that by everything he did.

Can you prove that he did anything? As in provide extra-biblical evidence (besides the same-old interpolations such as Tacitus and Josephus)?

He nullifyed all other beliefs.

How? Hebrews had a 'god of gods' but according to recent scholarship it is clear that Hebrews had more than one god in their own religion. They just had one that they eventually made ruler over the others (elohim) and proclaimed as god over the gods of other religions. The god of christianity is a Greek god stirred in a pot with Jewish theology. If anything, Jesus Christos with his cult meal and dying-god man theology and layers of myster cult nullified other beliefs besides Greco-Roman (hail caesar). :)

[Nosi]

I keep hearing this one, theres been no increase in that stuff, just an increase in the ability to report it
:rolleyes:

Pain in the net if you ask me...

:dl:

[Nosi]

it's been pointed out that the reason the christian right supports israel so vociferously is this exactly. And it's very cynical because the next step is its destruction, or the releasing of satan, or whatever. I.e. They don't love israel because they're nice people, but because it's the next thing on god's hit list of the end times.

ouch

[Hux]

Am I right in understanding that after the final battle, Jews will be allowed to 'convert' or be completely annihilated?

[kurious_kathy]

Yeah, that sounds like just the kind of violent prick I want to have a personal relationship with. :rolleyes:

Like it or not, God will have the last say. He is Holy therefore all who won't repent will be judged, so I suggest you avoid the second death by accepting Christ's forgiveness!

[calebprime]

Like it or not, God will have the last say. He is Holy therefore all who won't repent will be judged, so I suggest you avoid the second death by accepting Christ's forgiveness!

evidences?

[kurious_kathy]

What makes me angry is when people use the bible to try and convince me that I am somehow inherently evil. These are very often people who know absolutely nothing about my life and the choices I have made. I am not angry because I truly, deeply believe I am wrong. I have no problem with being shown to be wrong, heck, I am wrong on a regular basis and have adjusted my thinking on various topics.

The thing is, I want to be shown I am wrong, not just have some sanctimonious attitude thrown at me without any justification.




Yes, we have. The evidence is inconclusive, and since you consider that means it doesn't prove you wrong, you assume that proves you are right. Critical thinking doesn't work that way. As a pragmatic assumption it works for you, which is fine, I don't want you to lose your beliefs, but it doesn't work for me. Please do not assume that it should.




Again, that is an assumption that doesn't work for me.




Odd, kurious_kathy assumes that our inner being is filthy and evil. You can't both be right.




Because, unlike the existence of your God, it has been demonstrated to work to my satisfaction. There are any number of people for whom modern medicine is untrustworthy. See the SMMT forum for numerous examples.




No, any creature that would have ultimate power and choose to use that to torture and destroy its own creations is a violent, uncontrollable prick. Excuses for that sort of behavior is very disturbing, especially coming from someone who believes God is love. My favorite definition of love is "when someone else's happiness is more important than your own." Can that sentiment really be applied to the quote kurious_kathy provided?

And just for the record, I do not believe in a soul, so although your last question is well-meant, it doesn't apply to me.

Just because you don't believe you have a soul does by no means prove your right. You spend so much time disputing the truth that we are all sinners, that you can't respond to God trying to grant you the gift of repentance so that your soul can be saved! Can I just ask you why?

[Akhenaten]

Like it or not, God will have the last say. He is Holy therefore all who won't repent will be judged, so I suggest you avoid the second death by accepting Christ's forgiveness!





The Aten has judged your god and found him wanting. I suggest you beg for his Shiny Forgiveness™ lest ye be caught without your SPF eleventy+.

[pakeha]

Just because you don't believe you have a soul does by no means prove your right. You spend so much time disputing the truth that we are all sinners, that you can't respond to God trying to grant you the gift of repentance so that your soul can be saved! Can I just ask you why?

I'd forgotten what kurious_kathy's posts were like.

[godless dave]

I am talking about regular people and N.D.Es...


And you're saying people have been clinically dead - no heartbeat - for days, and then recovered?

[tsig]

And you're saying people have been clinically dead - no heartbeat - for days, and then recovered?

Three days seems to be the current record.

It's seems that what Edge wants is contradictory:

If he proves the Resurrection is just a mundane event then is not his faith in vain?

[Pure Argent]

Like it or not, God will have the last say. He is Holy therefore all who won't repent will be judged, so I suggest you avoid the second death by accepting Christ's forgiveness!

In what way does this prove that your god is not a world-class jerk?

Just because you don't believe you have a soul does by no means prove your right. You spend so much time disputing the truth that we are all sinners, that you can't respond to God trying to grant you the gift of repentance so that your soul can be saved! Can I just ask you why?

KK, this goes both ways. You assert that we have souls, but this does not make you right.

[godless dave]

Three days seems to be the current record.


Is there a cite for that, assuming you're not talking about Jesus of Nazareth?

[Hokulele]

Just because you don't believe you have a soul does by no means prove your right. You spend so much time disputing the truth that we are all sinners, that you can't respond to God trying to grant you the gift of repentance so that your soul can be saved! Can I just ask you why?


Because I do not believe there is any such thing as an objective view of morality that is required for the concept of "sin". Yes, I am one of those horrible moral relativists. That, coupled with what to me is a complete and total lack of evidence for the very existence of souls and gods, causes me to believe that this is my one and only shot at life, and as such, I should take the greatest advantage of this opportunity. Yes, there are problems in this world, and some of them I do find very troubling, but it is up to me to attempt to solve them, or to aid those who are, not to pass off responsibility to fictitious entities or hope for the "white knight in shining armor" to come and save me.

I prefer to directly face the challenges and realities of life on my feet, not my knees.

[RandFan]

Like it or not, God will have the last say. He is Holy therefore all who won't repent will be judged, so I suggest you avoid the second death by accepting Christ's forgiveness! If there is a god you don't know its mind. End of story. The Bible is a giant moras of contradiction and absurd fairy tales. There's some good in it but not enough to give it any significance over anything else.

[Elizabeth I]

Just because you don't believe you have a soul does by no means prove your right. You spend so much time disputing the truth that we are all sinners, that you can't respond to God trying to grant you the gift of repentance so that your soul can be saved! Can I just ask you why?

Well, she answered. Are you going to pay any attention or just spout another Bible verse?

[edge]

And you're saying people have been clinically dead - no heartbeat - for days, and then recovered?

There's been cases and brain dead.

[edge]

If there is a god you don't know its mind. End of story. The Bible is a giant moras of contradiction and absurd fairy tales. There's some good in it but not enough to give it any significance over anything else.

We do somewhat but not all of it. Thing is he knows ours.
You really don't need to know all of what is in there to commune with the Father as a child I didn't know anything and in the innocent state there was a connection I remember it well, as we grow that innocent connection is lost.

The trinity is in our minds all of us as well.
I have to walk the Dog be back....

[Elizabeth I]

There's been cases and brain dead.

Citations? And please provide primary sources, not evangelistic fundamentalist special pleading.

[kuroyume0161]

We do somewhat but not all of it. Thing is he knows ours.
You really don't need to know all of what is in there to commune with the Father as a child I didn't know anything and in the innocent state there was a connection I remember it well, as we grow that innocent connection is lost.

The trinity is in our minds all of us as well.
I have to walk the Dog be back....

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

1 Corinthians 13:11 (or Hackers)

To paraphrase: grow up. ;)

The trinity doesn't reside in my mind (and not in any of those indoctrinated by other religions). Your statements, as usual, cannot be validated except in your own mind. The power of belief doesn't make something actual.

I suggest that you reread the NT but without those biased glasses on and chanting 'I love Jesus' throughout. If you read it like any other book, you quickly see how mythological and fictitious it actually reads. Only in fiction can an author express the internal thoughts of people whom they have never met.

[RandFan]

We do somewhat but not all of it.You don't know any of it. An intellectually honest position is that you believe that you have certain information as to gods mind. It's called faith.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1

[Paulhoff]

On being dead, this says it well.

6GrYNaaYSjs

Paul

:) :) :)

[Foster Zygote]

There's been cases and brain dead.

And there was this guy in Cleavland who had monkeys fly out of his butt.

It's one thing to make a claim, it's another to back it up. We don't want anecdotes, we want evidence.

[Hux]

Three days seems to be the current record.

Lazarus. Four Days I believe. Guinness book of Records.

[Hux]

[QUOTE=RandFan;5310112]You don't know any of it. An intellectually honest position is that you believe that you have certain information as to gods mind. It's called faith.

The intellectually honest position would be to accept your arrogance in thinking you know the mind of God.

[kurious_kathy]

Well, she answered. Are you going to pay any attention or just spout another Bible verse?

I do pay attention but I view the Bible as having answers we all need for life, not just spouting meaningless phrases. The Bible has a lot of truth if you would care to try to take it to heart. I know it's the truth that sets us free and Jesus is the "TRUTH!"

[Hux]

Its just another book amongst many. Nothing original except maybe the violence. Chris Hitchens reckons you could learn more about 'truth' and morality and all those things that matter, by reading the great works of literature. BTW the Bible isn't one of them. I think he is correct.

[Foster Zygote]

I do pay attention but I view the Bible as having answers we all need for life, not just spouting meaningless phrases. The Bible has a lot of truth if you would care to try to take it to heart. I know it's the truth that sets us free and Jesus is the "TRUTH!"

The Bible is very informative as to what I need to do if I wish to sell my daughter into slavery. It also tells me what to do if I catch my neighbor eating shrimp.

[Paulhoff]

I do pay attention but I view the Bible as having answers we all need for life, not just spouting meaningless phrases. The Bible has a lot of truth if you would care to try to take it to heart. I know it's the truth that sets us free and Jesus is the "TRUTH!"
Until we treat all people as equals, as your bible doesn't, morals in that book mean little to nothing. Morals can allow slavery, people on an equal setting can't.

Paul

:) :) :)

[Akhenaten]

Well, she answered. Are you going to pay any attention or just spout another Bible verse?





I do pay attention but I view the Bible as having answers we all need for life, not just spouting meaningless phrases. The Bible has a lot of truth if you would care to try to take it to heart. I know it's the truth that sets us free and Jesus is the "TRUTH!"





So your answers to Elizabeth are "No" and "Yes" then. Why didn't you just type that?

[godless dave]

There's been cases and brain dead.

Brain death is different from clinical death.

I'm asking you if there have been cases where people have been without a heartbeat for days and been revived.

[kuroyume0161]

Considering that severe brain damage occurs if the brain's oxygen supply is interrupted for even a few minutes (the brain gets its oxygen from blood pumped by the heart), even if you could revive someone after a few hours of clinical death, the person would be a vegetable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_death#Limits_of_reversal

[Hux]

I dont think we could consider days. Perhaps a few hours but even so, you could only find vibrant tissue at autopsy which kind of defeats the point.

If people do 'come to' after a few days, they just weren't dead, clinically or otherwise. Misdiagnosis occasionally happens. Not every patient gets a EEG at 'death'.

[tsig]

I do pay attention but I view the Bible as having answers we all need for life, not just spouting meaningless phrases. The Bible has a lot of truth if you would care to try to take it to heart. I know it's the truth that sets us free and Jesus is the "TRUTH!"

Truth is a great chain thru the heart.

[tsig]

You don't know any of it. An intellectually honest position is that you believe that you have certain information as to gods mind. It's called faith.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1

Or land in Florida.

[tsig]

Like it or not, God will have the last say. He is Holy therefore all who won't repent will be judged, so I suggest you avoid the second death by accepting Christ's forgiveness!

I did that then He told me it was cold on that cross and I was keeping Him there with my needs so I forgave everyone and achieved peace.

It was harsh to awake with everyting but my life stolen away butt with me and Jesus it worked out.

I pimped him and he pimped me and oh how happy we culd be. Then we gained a flock and oh how we did shear for the righous god til the forces of evil prevailed.

I'm doin time for the crime of loving Jesus.

[Akhenaten]

Ohnoes! One of our own has succumbed to the Jeebus Fever.

Get some paratheists in here with a defaithinator, stat!

[kurious_kathy]

Until we treat all people as equals, as your bible doesn't, morals in that book mean little to nothing. Morals can allow slavery, people on an equal setting can't.

Paul

:) :) :)

Oh please, are people equal to God? No way He's Holy and we aren't do to the fall of man. Granted all men should treat eachother with respect, but we are not equals with God, his ways are much higher than ours. We are all desperate people in need of God's mercy Paul.

If you could just realize all we deserve is death and hell, but because of the sacrifce Jesus made we can receive God's mercy and grace. If you continue to deny Christ then I feel really sorry for you because I know God's wrath remains on you, which may be the reason you I think you lash out at me so much. Tell me, why do you think you lash out out people who want to share Jesus with you?

[arthwollipot]

If you continue to deny Christ then I feel really sorry for you because I know God's wrath remains on you, which may be the reason you I think you lash out at me so much. Tell me, why do you think you lash out out people who want to share Jesus with you?Because they're incredibly annoying?

[fromdownunder]

Tell me, why do you think you lash out out people who want to share Jesus with you?

For the same reason I lash out at people why try to sell me new Cell Phones, get me to change Telcom or electricity or Gas provider services, and want me to send them my credit card details so that they can deposit $US7 million into my account from Nigeria.

I don't like scam artists.

Norm

[Akhenaten]

Oh please, are people equal to God? No way





Of course not. People exist, that other thing doesn't.


He's Holy and we aren't do to the fall of man.





What the hell does "Holy" mean to you? Is it similar to "All Powerful" like the Aten is?


Granted all men should treat eachother with respect . . .





Why don't you just hold this thought?


. . . but we are not equals with God, his ways are much higher than ours. We are all desperate people in need of God's mercy Paul.





It's like an addiction, really.


If you could just realize all we deserve is death and hell . . .





Some of it's quite disturbing.


. . . but because of the sacrifce Jesus made we can receive God's mercy and grace.





I still think monotheism is better than christianity.


If you continue to deny Christ then I feel really sorry for you because I know God's wrath remains on you . . .





The Aten can help you with that.


. . . which may be the reason you I think you lash out at me so much. Tell me, why do you think you lash out out people who want to share Jesus with you?





Boring, Uninformed, Lack-Lustre Strident, Hypocritical, Illogical Troublemakers.

Those are my initial thoughts.

[edge]

Hey K.K. how’s that weather in the Sierras?
I'm out of the Cascades and in Florida now it's starting to get cold here thank God, this is the best time to be down here now ... perfect weather here, couldn’t ask for better.
I’ll be heading back there for a visit hopefully when there’s some snow.

[edge]

Citations? And please provide primary sources, not evangelistic fundamentalist special pleading.

I'll see what i can find i know it's out there because I have posted these links before and from the medical community, but you popo that away as well.

[edge]

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

1 Corinthians 13:11 (or Hackers)

To paraphrase: grow up.

The trinity doesn't reside in my mind (and not in any of those indoctrinated by other religions). Your statements, as usual, cannot be validated except in your own mind. The power of belief doesn't make something actual.

I suggest that you reread the NT but without those biased glasses on and chanting 'I love Jesus' throughout. If you read it like any other book, you quickly see how mythological and fictitious it actually reads. Only in fiction can an author express the internal thoughts of people whom they have never met.

As usual you have taken something I have shared and twisted it into a great lie for your benefit because of trying to belong to the skeptic community in here, this verse isn't even close to what I was saying or giving as an example.

Since when, is commune with God childish?

[Akhenaten]

Since, one became an adult.

[Elizabeth I]

No way He's Holy and we aren't do to the fall of man.

Would you at least learn the difference between due and do? You know, there's a really helpful book called a "dictionary" that can help you with stuff like that, but I suppose you never read anything but the Bible.

Oh, yeah, and once again you blame humans because you believe your God created them to fail. If a dog-fighter raises a vicious pit bull, is the dog or the owner to blame if the dog mauls a child?


I'll see what i can find i know it's out there because I have posted these links before and from the medical community, but you popo that away as well.

"Popo"? What is it about religious fervor that destroys the ability to use the language correctly? One might think you types would want to communicate your beliefs, however misguided, clearly in order to do (see that, KK?) homage to your God, but apparently not.

[edge]

Would you at least learn the difference between due and do? You know, there's a really helpful book called a "dictionary" that can help you with stuff like that, but I suppose you never read anything but the Bible.

Oh, yeah, and once again you blame humans because you believe your God created them to fail. If a dog-fighter raises a vicious pit bull, is the dog or the owner to blame if the dog mauls a child?




"Popo"? What is it about religious fervor that destroys the ability to use the language correctly? One might think you types would want to communicate your beliefs, however misguided, clearly in order to do (see that, KK?) homage to your God, but apparently not.


I just woke up, big deal...

A more detailed discussion of this definition may be found in this web site's NDERF Research section. As part of the OBE, experiencer's consistently report weightlessness, ability to pass through physical objects, an ability to move quickly and effortlessly from place to place and inability to be seen or heard by other living people. NDERF has a fascinating account (Paul's NDE) of a NDE experiencer who witnessed another individual dying beside him, and saw "…a mist leave from his head, which instantly turned into an exact duplicate of his body. I noticed that his spirit or new body was whole and glowed a bit". These two simultaneously occurring NDE's suggest communication may occur between individuals undergoing OBE, but not with living individuals. I find the OBE experience fascinating, and look forward to sharing further comments on OBE in the future.
Copyright 1999 by Dr. Jeff and Jody Long

About one in four NDE experiencers describe a process of life review. Usually a being of light is present. The being of light is generally described as very compassionate and unconditionally loving. The life review experience has some variability, but usually includes a very rapid, often extremely detailed presentation of their life events, feelings, and a presentation of their action's effects on others. It is very significant that NDE experiencer's are often shown details of the actions and feelings of others they encountered throughout their life. Many or most of these individuals whose actions and feelings the NDE experiencer is shown are still alive at the time of the NDE with no awareness of consciously sharing their life actions and feelings with spiritual beings. This suggests the actions and feelings of living individuals encountered by the NDE experiencer, and the NDE experiencer themselves, are continuously known in great detail by spiritual beings in the afterlife.
Such a detailed knowing of us by spiritual beings suggests an ongoing connection between those of us on earth and spiritual beings. I do not know the nature of this connection and am not consciously aware of it. I believe the preceding evidence suggests the likelihood of such a connection, and if so the implications are profound. I believe being known and understood by compassionate and unconditionally loving spiritual beings is an expression of their ongoing love for us all. As I reflect of the implications of this knowing connection, I realize the futility of my efforts to deceive others or myself. If I am known, any efforts of mine to deceive others is unloving and ultimately fails its purpose of keeping the deceit hidden.
While I find the likelihood of such a knowing connection with spiritual beings uncomfortable in some ways, there is a tremendous up-side. Being known by such compassionate and unconditionally loving spiritual beings means I am loved. I have found that knowing I am loved is vital and life changing. This is one important lesson from the NDE experience with a tremendous message of hope for you and for me.
We hope the NDERF research and all that flows from it will be an act of love.

http://www.nderf.org/FAQs.htm#Are%20NDEs%20caused%20by%20false%20memori es?

There are some preliminary studies suggesting that functional MRI imaging of the brain may be able to differentiate "true" from "false" memories, but short of subjecting NDErs to fMRIs, we don't have a technology for distinguishing memories of real events from imagination. However, unless we have some reason to suspect that an NDEr is highly suggestible AND has had some strong motivation to imagine having had an NDE, there is no rational reason to assume that the NDE is a "false memory."

Another key part of the longitudinal study by van Lommel and cited in the Lancet, was the effect of time, memory and suppression of the NDE during the integration process. The commentary in the Lancet talks of NDEs being the result of false memories. Interestingly, if this were true, then this rationale could not explain why the study found that people could recall their NDE exactly over the span of a 2-year and an 8-year period. Id. at 2041. Moreover, the skeptic commentary quoted memory studies of children, but lacked information on adults. The cardiac arrest population consisted of adults rather than children. There was a profound lack of explanation as to what constitutes false memory, and many in the field of psychology agree that false memory is credited with filling in small gaps in memory rather than inventing whole stories. Near Death Experience In Survivors of Cardiac Arrest: A Prospective Study in the Netherlands, Pim van Lommel, et al, THE LANCET • Vol 358 • December 15, 2001.
Why do some people believe that NDEs are not real?
Although there are many answers to this multifaceted question, part of the controversy stems from the way science proves observed phenomena. "Science" is defined as the process used to find truth. Best Evidence, Schmicker, Michael, pg 37. "In contrast, 'Scientism' is a philosophy of materialism, masquerading as scientific truth. Paranormal research, has used the process of science to prove the existence of a variety of phenomena, that simply doesn't fit within Scientism's philosophy of materialism. If evidence conflicts with philosophy, the evidence should not be dismissed; instead, the philosophy should be revised.
How could a clear consciousness outside one's body be experienced at the moment that brain no longer functions during a period of clinical death with flat EEG?"
But the truth is that nobody knows when the NDEs reported by these patients occurred. Was it really during the period of flat EEG or might they have occurred as the patients rapidly entered or gradually recovered from that state? THE LANCET * Vol 358 * December 15, 2001 COMMENTARY p. 2010
This is perhaps one of the more ludicrous skeptical arguments. All one has to do is to read the experiences on the website. Notice that many describe the out of body part of the experience. It is hard to believe that a person can describe events (many times in the operating room) that occur after death. For instance, we had one experiencer talk of floating down the hall and hearing word for word what the nurses were saying about her death. We also have several reports of experiences reporting word for word how relatives reacted to news of their death.

You guys keep harping on slavery which form are you talking about slavery in today’s world because we are slaves of the world. Slavery 200 years ago was not the same as 2000 years ago, your reasoning BEWILDERS ME.


The slavery in the O.T. is not same this is what they didn’t understand 200 years ago and they were finding justification for it in the bible when they brought and sold the slaves from Africa for monetary gain.
You people have been schooled on this already.

She was taken by ambulance to a local West Virginia hospital when her heart stopped after experiencing symptoms of a heart attack. For more than 17 hours, Thomas had no measurable brain waves, according to her doctors.
Doctors tried everything to save Thomas' life, even inducing hypothermia in an attempt to lower her body temperature and stimulate the brain.
Her family said their goodbyes and left her side at the hospital to make funeral plans.

She was taken by ambulance to a local West Virginia hospital when her heart stopped after experiencing symptoms of a heart attack. For more than 17 hours, Thomas had no measurable brain waves, according to her doctors.
Doctors tried everything to save Thomas' life, even inducing hypothermia in an attempt to lower her body temperature and stimulate the brain.
Her family said their goodbyes and left her side at the hospital to make funeral plans.

Watch the video.
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=4923465

There are many cases of this over the span of 100 years or more.

[Elizabeth I]

Please post an instance where a doctor, a nurse, or a medical records clerk says, "The death was pronounced at X o'clock. At X o'clock plus Y days [or even hours] the patient came back to life."

[Paulhoff]

Oh please, are people equal to God?


Apparently so, after all we have one in our image. You still have not shown a so-called god and/or need for one other than your own need.

No way He's Holy and we aren't do to the fall of man. Granted all men should treat eachother with respect, but we are not equals with God, his ways are much higher than ours. We are all desperate people in need of God's mercy Paul.


When are you going to understand that when someone and/or something makes things, they are responsible for it, it is not the other way around. You so-called god is a bad maker, it can’t get it right time and time again. It didn't get it right with Adam and Eve, didn't get it right after the so-called flood, and can't get it right in that heaven since we have fallen angels, so what respect should anyone give it.

If you could just realize all we deserve is death and hell, but because of the sacrifce Jesus made we can receive God's mercy and grace.


We deserve death, that is childlish, why do you believe in childish things, is that what you learned from you faith, "We deserve death". And if this Jesus was who you think he was, hello, it is in a heaven, so what is the big deal, where was the sacrifce?

If you continue to deny Christ then I feel really sorry for you because I know God's wrath remains on you, which may be the reason you I think you lash out at me so much.


Please, feel sorry all you want, if that makes you feel better, go for it. And I lashed out at you by telling you to forgive yourself, what a terrible person I am. When someone fears something, one can never really love it, you fear a so-called god's wrath, you will never truely loved it.

Tell me, why do you think you lash out out people who want to share Jesus with you?


So, we have the pot calling the kettle black. Why do you lash out at people who want to share real knowledge with you, why can't you stand up on your own two feet, or do you need a group of people to tell you you're right all the time.

And if there was a Jesus, he was only a man, so with that I can take or leave him and/or anything his says with a grain of salt.

Paul

:) :) :)

[Paulhoff]

I'm out of the Cascades and in Florida now it's starting to get cold here thank God,
No, that would be "Thank cold air".

Paul

:) :) :)

[Hokulele]

Tell me, why do you think you lash out out people who want to share Jesus with you?


Because some of them say truly appalling things such as:

If you could just realize all we deserve is death and hell...

[Hux]

Originally Posted by kurious_kathy
Tell me, why do you think you lash out out people who want to share Jesus with you?

Because folks like you arrogantly assume that others give a sh8 for your delusions. You cant even establish the guy ever existed and yet you still expect people to take the slightest bit of notice. When you understand why you would reject our demands that you listen to stories about Zeus, you will understand us.

[paximperium]

Please post an instance where a doctor, a nurse, or a medical records clerk says, "The death was pronounced at X o'clock. At X o'clock plus Y days [or even hours] the patient came back to life."
My attending did that once. He pronounced a patient and the patient came back to life...then promptly died in the ICU 2 hours later. He was a butt of much jokes for months. Of course the fundies ignore all the wonderful science involved with doing so and claim goddidit.

[Elizabeth I]

My attending did that once. He pronounced a patient and the patient came back to life...then promptly died in the ICU 2 hours later. He was a butt of much jokes for months. Of course the fundies ignore all the wonderful science involved with doing so and claim goddidit.

Oh, gosh. Does this mean that now I'm going to have to believe everything that edge says?:nope:

:D

[paximperium]

Oh, gosh. Does this mean that now I'm going to have to believe everything that edge says?:nope:
I saw a drunk got frozen one day. Died for about 8hours...don't mind the wonderful open chest and cardiac bypass machine, cardiac surgeons and ventilator he had. but then god must have brought him back to life :rolleyes:

Nah, Edge is still spouting completely idiotic nonsense.

[Hux]

My attending did that once. He pronounced a patient and the patient came back to life...then promptly died in the ICU 2 hours later. He was a butt of much jokes for months. Of course the fundies ignore all the wonderful science involved with doing so and claim goddidit.

Newly qualified Doctors will do that to you.

[edge]

I saw a drunk got frozen one day. Died for about 8hours...don't mind the wonderful open chest and cardiac bypass machine, cardiac surgeons and ventilator he had. but then god must have brought him back to life :rolleyes:

Nah, Edge is still spouting completely idiotic nonsense.

I wonder what his memory of that experiance is?
Ya and all those doctors too right? :rolleyes:


Originally Posted by edge
I'm out of the Cascades and in Florida now it's starting to get cold here thank God,
No, that would be "Thank cold air".

Paul




ME:
No thank God for that too, opps my bad!

[edge]

I grow weary of your nonsense.

[paximperium]

Newly qualified Doctors will do that to you.
Nah...he's been practicing for over 10years...but then he's Canadian, he may have been too polite to disturb the patient.:D

[paximperium]

I wonder what his memory of that experiance is? Nothing relevant since his brain had no blood flow leading to disrupted or damaged memories. Did you have a point again?

Ya and all those doctors too right? :rolleyes:
Yes. I've read those papers and several NDE studies especially that farcical Lancet "study" and they are complete garbage. So anything intelligent to add or will you continue to spout nonsense?

[edge]

Like I said you are so locked up in your beliefs you'll need a sign to come around, but you'll not believe that either.
I got my signs and for me it’s all I need as evidence.
As far as your critique of those studies I refer to your avatar and compare that to their credentials, and your opinion therefore is lacking much, at least for now.

[paximperium]

Like I said you are so locked up in your beliefs you'll need a sign to come around, but you'll not believe that either.
I got my signs and for me it’s all I need as evidence.The ironic self insult is truly hilarious.

As far as your critique of those studies I refer to your avatar and compare that to their credentials, and your opinion therefore is lacking much, at least for now.Yawn. How completely pathetic. Nothing relevant or intelligent to say. Let me guess, you never read any of your spam, did you?

[Elizabeth I]

Like I said you are so locked up in your beliefs you'll need a sign to come around, but you'll not believe that either.
I got my signs and for me it’s all I need as evidence.
As far as your critique of those studies I refer to your avatar and compare that to their credentials, and your opinion therefore is lacking much, at least for now.

So you're not going to do this?

Please post an instance where a doctor, a nurse, or a medical records clerk says, "The death was pronounced at X o'clock. At X o'clock plus Y days [or even hours] the patient came back to life."

You're going to stick with nothing but the accounts of NDEs, which are nothing more than stories about subjective experiences?

[RandFan]

I got my signs and for me it’s all I need as evidence.Mormons got their signs. Jehova's Witnesses got their signs. Seventh Day Adventists got their signs. Catholics got their signs. Muslims got their signs. Hindus got their signs. Sikhs got their signs. Budhists got their signs.

What good are the signs if they all lead to different places.

[Paulhoff]

I grow weary of your nonsense.
Stop looking in the mirror Edge.

Paul

:) :) :)

[Marduk]

I grow weary of your nonsense.

not going to turn the other cheek then ?
:D

[edge]

Mormons got their signs. Jehova's Witnesses got their signs. Seventh Day Adventists got their signs. Catholics got their signs. Muslims got their signs. Hindus got their signs. Sikhs got their signs. Budhists got their signs.

What good are the signs if they all lead to different places.

You’re talking about churches I'm saying it can be more personal, that is if you want the proof, the evidence for yourself, you don't need them.
They all have some of the truths add it all up then seek for yourself.
Test them, their truth it will all come personally to you.

[RandFan]

You’re talking about churches I'm saying it can be more personal, that is if you want the proof, the evidence for yourself, you don't need them.
They all have some of the truths add it all up then seek for yourself.
Test them, their truth it will all come personally to you.Are you saying that god doesn't answer people who belong to a church?

You are not making any sense.

[Paulhoff]

You’re talking about churches I'm saying it can be more personal, that is if you want the proof, the evidence for yourself, you don't need them.
They all have some of the truths add it all up then seek for yourself.
Test them, their truth it will all come personally to you.
And of course you know which are real truths and which aren't real.

Paul

:) :) :)

Same stuff from these guys all the time.

[godless dave]

So, edge, any evidence of people coming back to life after being without a heartbeat for days?

[paximperium]

You’re talking about churches I'm saying it can be more personal, that is if you want the proof, the evidence for yourself, you don't need them.
To paraphrase some ironic idiot:
"Like I said you are so locked up in your beliefs..." apparently you can't differentiated your "signs" from any other hallucination or delusions. Sorry, I'll trust in something more reliable than fantasy-based beliefs.

So any evidence of anyone coming back to life after being dead for days?

[lightfire22000]

To paraphrase some ironic idiot:
"Like I said you are so locked up in your beliefs..." apparently you can't differentiated your "signs" from any other hallucination or delusions. Sorry, I'll trust in something more reliable than fantasy-based beliefs.

So any evidence of anyone coming back to life after being dead for days?

Your question actually is more interesting than you intended.
http://www.livescience.com/health/061221_ap_hibernating_man.html

Death doesn't have an exact meaning, or at least it has many meanings.

The real question should be "Is there any evidence of a man having two distinct family trees?"

[paximperium]

Your question actually is more interesting than you intended.
http://www.livescience.com/health/061221_ap_hibernating_man.html

Death doesn't have an exact meaning, or at least it has many meanings.Sure. So what is this "Jesus died" meaning again?

But let's keep things simple, I don't believe the report at all. How about the fella went "missing" and was only actually hypothermic for only a few hour? Having cold blood to the brain tends to do odd things to the brain and memories doesn't it? But then, the entire "report" is nothing more amusing than speculation.

[Monster Machine]

You guys keep harping on slavery which form are you talking about slavery in today’s world because we are slaves of the world. Slavery 200 years ago was not the same as 2000 years ago, your reasoning BEWILDERS ME.


The slavery in the O.T. is not same this is what they didn’t understand 200 years ago and they were finding justification for it in the bible when they brought and sold the slaves from Africa for monetary gain.
You people have been schooled on this already.



You have got to be kidding me, right? You've schooled us on what - the "right" way to "own and subjugate" another human being? Dude, people own animals. We don't own another human regardless of how we treat them.


Like I said you are so locked up in your beliefs you'll need a sign to come around, but you'll not believe that either.
I got my signs and for me it’s all I need as evidence.
As far as your critique of those studies I refer to your avatar and compare that to their credentials, and your opinion therefore is lacking much, at least for now.

Quite a statement from someone who claims to have proof of people being DEAD and coming back to life DAYS later, yet can't seem to post any evidence.


I grow weary of your nonsense.

Natch.


Monster

[Foster Zygote]

You guys keep harping on slavery which form are you talking about slavery in today’s world because we are slaves of the world. Slavery 200 years ago was not the same as 2000 years ago, your reasoning BEWILDERS ME.

The slavery in the O.T. is not same this is what they didn’t understand 200 years ago and they were finding justification for it in the bible when they brought and sold the slaves from Africa for monetary gain.
You people have been schooled on this already.

So the Bible tells us how to practice the good kind of slavery?

[Hux]

Yes I am sure a slave from 200 years ago would love to discuss the philosophical nuances of slavery with you. What could they be thinking? Damn we have it easy compared to hose poor 2000 year old sods?

:rolleyes:

[Monster Machine]

My maid didn't wash around the toilet this morning. I admit I never told her to do so.

So, according teh christ himself, I'll be sure to give her a light beating when I see her tomorrow. If she doesn't do it properly the next time, though - look out. Full beating. Stitches, even. Thank you jeebus.

Monster

[Paulhoff]

My maid didn't wash around the toilet this morning. I admit I never told her to do so.

So, according teh christ himself, I'll be sure to give her a light beating when I see her tomorrow. If she doesn't do it properly the next time, though - look out. Full beating. Stitches, even. Thank you jeebus.

Monster
Don't you understand, we cherry-pick the bible, we only count those parts that we like, all the rest can go to hell. :D

Paul

:) :) :)

[AvalonXQ]

It seems pretty clear to me that the examples put forward for modern evidence of "coming back to life" are actually examples of people who were wrongly considered dead or were pulled back from the brink of death. A very different thing than what's recorded in the Bible: returning to life corpses dead and buried for days.
I've seen no reputable evidence that anything like this has occurred recently.

[Pure Argent]

It seems pretty clear to me that the examples put forward for modern evidence of "coming back to life" are actually examples of people who were wrongly considered dead or were pulled back from the brink of death. A very different thing than what's recorded in the Bible: returning to life corpses dead and buried for days.
I've seen no reputable evidence that anything like this has occurred recently.

What, you haven't seen that documentary? What was it called... Night of the Living Dead or something like that.

[AvalonXQ]

What, you haven't seen that documentary? What was it called... Night of the Living Dead or something like that.

Is it on Youtube? I only accept as real things I can see on Youtube.

[Pure Argent]

Is it on Youtube? I only accept as real things I can see on Youtube.

Smart man.

[ZirconBlue]

No, Jesus isn't coming back. And, I'll let you in a little secret: He never intended to come back. It was all just pillow talk. "Yeah, yeah, I'll come back. No, really!"

But the next morning? "Yeah, I said I'd come back, didn't I? It may be a while, though. I've got some. . . stuff to do. Um, I'll call you."

[arthwollipot]

I've seen no reputable evidence that anything like this has occurred recently.Fixed it for you.

[thegrave]

There is a question on Yahoo Answers that read, "Why can't Christians accept that Jesus is not coming back?"

Here is one response I found interesting.


"We don't accept that Jesus is not coming back, because it says He WILL come back in the Bible, and He also told of the signs before the 'end of the age' or when He comes back.

Check out Revelations when you can (quick note- it is very symbolic)- i don't actually have the time to explain it all... and i'm not fully capable of it either.

Also, in the things Jesus predicted in the Bible, many of them have come true- many point towards His return e.g. the below Bible passage:

Matthew 24.

3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"

4Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,[a]' and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. [B]19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.

26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[c]

30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.


As you can see, much of the above so far is true (earthquakes, wars, nations against nations etc., in fact, the rate of earthquakes, wars, etc. have increased a lot in the last few years.). So you can see that eventually Jesus will return. That's why Christians don't accept that Jesus is not coming back- because Jesus IS coming back.

Jesus coming back is not a false hope."

I think all of this stuff has happened MANY times over the 2000+ years that people have been waiting.:rolleyes:


I think people who believe this are arrogant self centered bigoty women haters!

If Jesus shows his face around here with all his doom and gloom I'll kick him in his nuts!:jaw-dropp

[AvalonXQ]

I think people who believe this are arrogant self centered bigoty women haters!

Jesus is warning that, during the Romans' invasion of Jerusalem, it will suck to be pregnant. Which, considering his following description of fleeing into the mountains, makes perfect sense. How is that misogynistic?

[BardKesnit]

Has this happened yet?
Isaiah 13 9-13 is clear...
10 The stars of heaven and their constellations
will not show their light.

(looks out window) No stars. Of course, it is overcast, but that doesn't change the fact that no stars are giving their light here.

The rising sun will be darkened

Wouldn't it be possible for there to be a solar eclipse at or near sunrise?

and the moon will not give its light.

This happens every 28 days. It's called a new moon.

12 I will make man scarcer than pure gold,
more rare than the gold of Ophir.

With no location given, yes, in what is now California about 400 years ago. Not a lot of people, but there was gold.

13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble;

Thunderstorm. Hurricane.

and the earth will shake from its place

Earthquake.

Yeah, I'd say all the actual events mentioned (as opposed to "And God will have a hissy fit") have happened.

[BardKesnit]

The slavery in the O.T. is not same

It does not matter. The fact is, the OT says slavery is perfectly fine.

[Paulhoff]

He was to come back in the time of his Disciples, if you checked, they are long gone.

Paul

:) :) :)

[AvalonXQ]

He was to come back in the time of his Disciples, if you checked, they are long gone.

*looks in the mirror*

Actually, we're still here.

[BardKesnit]

*looks in the mirror*

Actually, we're still here.

"Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." (Matthew 24:33-34)

[Paulhoff]

*looks in the mirror*

Actually, we're still here.
One of the first and only 12 are you.

Paul

:) :) :)

[kurious_kathy]

evidences?

Well for me the true Biblical history is evidence, and then there is the issue of death itself, and death is punishment for sin. I know from reading scripture the second death of the soul will be even worse than the first. Scripture says so in Matt. 10:28: Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. God's judgement for sin is not finished yet, but he is patiently waiting and hoping all will repent so none will perish; there are still many who need to repent and accept Christ.

[kurious_kathy]

Because they're incredibly annoying?

Oh great, we Christians show genuine concern for peoples souls and where they will spend eternity, and all you can say is you think we're annoying? Did it ever occur to you that we are very burdened for your souls?: this is because God puts that burden in our hearts, because he doesn't want that any should perish. Why can't you just accept what Jesus did on the cross for you?

[RandFan]

Well for me the true Biblical history is evidence...That fails. See Misquoting Jesus (http://www.amazon.com/Misquoting-Jesus-Story-Behind-Changed/dp/0060738170).

[RandFan]

Oh great, we Christians show genuine concern for peoples souls and where they will spend eternity, and all you can say is you think we're annoying? Given the arrogance of your presumption, yeah, it's very annoying.

[paximperium]

Oh great, we Christians show genuine concern for peoples souls and where they will spend eternity, and all you can say is you think we're annoying? Did it ever occur to you that we are very burdened for your souls?: this is because God puts that burden in our hearts, because he doesn't want that any should perish. The sheer smug self righteous arrogance is most definitely annoying. You are a perfect example of that.

Why can't you just accept what Jesus did on the cross for you?
And the smug stupidity is pitiable. KK, your inability to even grasp that atheist do not believe your idiocy despite multiple attempts is the ultimate reason you are despised and not for just being annoying.

[Paulhoff]

Well for me the true Biblical history is evidence, and then there is the issue of death itself, and death is punishment for sin.
Why does it seem so hard for you to understand that your Bible is not a source of evidence for us? Belief in something does not make it true, and fear is not what should make an adult believe in it too. You talk of a so-called loving god, when it seems most of your time is devoted to fear of that so-called god’s retribution. Please, keep your bible and your lesser so-called god, I and many here have no time for it.

Paul

:) :) :)

[ZirconBlue]

"Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." (Matthew 24:33-34)

Well, if "7 days" can actually be thousands or millions of years, then you can imagine how long a "generation" must be.

:rolleyes:

[Pure Argent]

Well for me the true Biblical history is evidence,

Unfortunately, for the part of the world that relies on science, Biblical history is neither true nor evidence.

and then there is the issue of death itself, and death is punishment for sin.

So if someone never sinned, they would never die?

I know from reading scripture the second death of the soul will be even worse than the first. Scripture says so in Matt. 10:28: Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Unfortunately, you can't prove the veracity of the Bible, so why should we believe Matthew 10:28?

God's judgement for sin is not finished yet, but he is patiently waiting and hoping all will repent so none will perish; there are still many who need to repent and accept Christ.

Bare assertion.

Oh great, we Christians show genuine concern for peoples souls and where they will spend eternity, and all you can say is you think we're annoying?

Yes, pretty much. Because unless you can show that your beliefs are true, then you have no reason to go around messing with our lives.

Did it ever occur to you that we are very burdened for your souls?:

What?

this is because God puts that burden in our hearts, because he doesn't want that any should perish.

Then why did he create sin? Why does he not just forgive all sin? Why is there a hell? Why does he condemn countless souls to eternal torture?

Why can't you just accept what Jesus did on the cross for you?

Because there's no proof that he did anything on the cross.

[kuroyume0161]

Oh great, we Christians show genuine concern for peoples souls and where they will spend eternity, and all you can say is you think we're annoying?

You (christians) spend such inordinate amounts of time and energy showing concern for people's souls that you make your showing of concern for people insignificant in ratio.

[Hux]

As I understand it Kathy, your christianity is but the latest escapade in a long line of misfortune and it saddens me for that.

However, had you stumbled into a synagogue instead of the soup Kitchen you would be offering us an entirely different form of nonsense altogether.

[Elizabeth I]

What about all the innocent animals who can't sin - because they have no knowledge of right and wrong - but also die?

[Paulhoff]

What about all the innocent animals who can't sin - because they have no knowledge of right and wrong - but also die?
Paulhoff waves his hand in the air..............


That is because of ours sins too??????????????


Paul

:) :) :)

Spread the happiness around to the other creatures of the world.............

[anduin]

A serpent able to fly Quetzalcoatl.
"Lost White Brother," and they expected his eventual return from the east during which he would destroy the wicked and begin a new era of peace and prosperity called the either the "Fifth World" or the "Sixth World" depending on whether a given system considers our current world to be fourth or fifth, respectively.


You are aware that if Jesus existed, he was not white, right?

[anduin]

Why can't you just accept what Jesus did on the cross for you?

Several reasons:

1. I do not believe this Jess character existed at all. I am willing to concede that there may have been a preacher at the heart of the story who may have existed, but the character depicted in the gospels is clearly fictional.
2. People do not come back from the dead.
3. Even if I believed the whole resurrection story (which I do not), I could never follow a deity that would do something as abhorrent as sending himself to spend a couple of bad days so that he could appease himself for an offence that he himself is guilty of.
4. I do not need anyone to die for my sins, I am perfectly capable of taking responsibility for my own actions.
5. The entire Christian system is based on immoral concepts of personal responsibility, it allocates guilt based on what others did, and sets a scapegoat to erase those sins. I could never believe something so inherently unethical. It is not only immoral, it is downright evil.
6. You follow a death cult. Some of us prefer to enjoy what little time we have in this world without having to invent imaginary friends to make us feel good.
7. The story does not make any sense.
8. There is no scintilla of evidence that this cult is true.

[edge]

You are aware that if Jesus existed, he was not white, right?

He was Hebrew, what color would matter?

A serpent able to fly Quetzalcoatl.


This doesn't describe Jesus; this is a description of a white devil/false prophet if you ask me....
Simply because of what their religion followed and practiced also.


(quote)I am willing to concede that there may have been a preacher at the heart of the story who may have existed, but the character depicted in the gospels is clearly fictional.
(/quote)

Right off you disbelieve but accept that he was real????



In Number 3 you want to judge God.


4. I do not need anyone to die for my sins; I am perfectly capable of taking responsibility for my own actions.

The whole point is you can’t pay for your sins and this is what has been done for you in a way apparently you can’t understand, what would you give God in repentance for those sins?
What would you do/give?
You have nothing to give that God would want?

We all take responsibility in this world, but you can’t wash what you have done that means to shed it because you can’t be in his presence unless you believe that he took it upon himself.

If God considers us his children why wouldn’t he die for us?
Would you die in place of yours?

It is basically a belief in God, and from then on trying to be better, Christ like. We can’t do what he did, be perfect humans and the ability because of that to take it upon him.
I know you’re not perfect… I’m not, but I try to be better from a clean slate, you’ll never be able to clean your slate on your own, that has to be done first, unless you try you’ll never know.

If you do you’ll be able to commune with God.

He won’t come to your mind unless you believe, if you want proof that there is a God, humility first, this is the way he wants it.


If it were a death cult we would be chopping heads off on Sunday like the followers of Quetzalcoatl.

[kuroyume0161]

He was Hebrew, what color would matter?

He would not be European caucasian as often portrayed is the intent. He would be olive/light-brown skinned based upon the region (tan) and geneology. How's that? :)

He won’t come to your mind unless you believe, if you want proof that there is a God, humility first, this is the way he wants it.

This is always the worst argument for believing. You have to believe before you can believe. Believing that homeopathy works doesn't make it actually work (besides the 'placebo effect'). How is this different? Round and round it goes.

If it were a death cult we would be chopping heads off on Sunday like the followers of Quetzalcoatl.

While I agree, I think he means 'dying god-man cult' where one worships the death (and resurrection) of a god-man. Or it could mean the fact that one believes that one lives 'eternally' after death.

[RandFan]

The whole point is you can’t pay for your sins...Why do I need to pay for my sins? Who says I can't pay for my sins? Who will pay for god's sins? You know, all of those babies drowned in the flood. The game he played on Abraham telling him to muder his son. The deal with satan to kill Job's family.

You have nothing to give that God would want?If there is a god you don't know it's mind and you don't speak for it.

If God considers us his children why wouldn’t he die for us?
Would you die in place of yours? If there is a god it is a malevolent being.

If my child where suffering I would try and aleviate his pain. There are plenty of people on Earth suffering. Children are sick and in pain around the world. Where is this thing you call god?

[Paulhoff]

If God considers us his children why wouldn’t he die for us?
According to your belief, Jesus is a so-called god, so-called gods don't die, what part of this don't you understand.

Paul

:) :) :)

[Elizabeth I]

I am willing to concede that there may have been a preacher at the heart of the story who may have existed, but the character depicted in the gospels is clearly fictional.

Right off you disbelieve but accept that he was real????

It is possible to accept that the person might actually have lived without buying all the claims the New Testament makes about him.

There are old women with warts on their noses. That doesn't mean there are witches.

I believe there was a pharaoh named Ramses. That doesn't mean I believe he was actually the Sun God (sorry, Akhenaten...)

I believe that Hirohito was Emperor of Japan. That doesn't mean I believe he was a god.

There really was a Davy Crockett. That doesn't mean he killed him a b'ar when he was only three.

See how that works?

[RandFan]

There really was a Davy Crockett. That doesn't mean he killed him a b'ar when he was only three. :( Damn!

[Elizabeth I]

I know. Sad, isn't it?

[Nosi]

I keep hearing this one, theres been no increase in that stuff, just an increase in the ability to report it
:rolleyes:

Detection of small earth shakers has gotten easier too with more sensitive equipment.

[anduin]

Right off you disbelieve but accept that he was real????

You should really hone your reading skills. I said that I do not believe the man described in the Gospels existed, but I am willing to concede that there may have been a source for the fictional character of Jesus.

In Number 3 you want to judge God.

Why not? If he exists and created me with a brain then I am perfectly capable of thinking that his actions are morally reprehensible, and not to choose to follow such a monster. This is of course a very big IF.


The whole point is you can’t pay for your sins and this is what has been done for you in a way apparently you can’t understand, what would you give God in repentance for those sins?

Why can't I pay for my own sins? What is wrong of taking personal responsability for my own actions? Why do I need a guy 2,000 years ago to be nailed to a piece of wood and spend a bad weekend so that my sins can be forgiven? It does not make any sense. And I do understand the whole concept, perhaps better than you do. Think about it with your head fully engaged. Ask yourself what is so wrong about paying for your own mistakes instead of being thankful for someone else taking the blame for them?


What would you do/give?
You have nothing to give that God would want?

And you know this how? Why does this God think that it is fine to spend a bad weekend to erase your sins, but it is not enough for me to make up for my own faults?


We all take responsibility in this world, but you can’t wash what you have done that means to shed it because you can’t be in his presence unless you believe that he took it upon himself.

Sigh. No, the entire point about Christianity is that it is a responsibility-shifting exercise. You are not responsible for anything!


If God considers us his children why wouldn’t he die for us?
Would you die in place of yours?

He did not really die, did he? He was tortured and was out for just over a day, knowing fully well that he would be coming back good as new. That is no sacrifice.

I would make real sacrifices for my kids, but the analogy is wrong. Christianity boils down to this moral dilemma: you leave an unguarded cookie jar in the middle of the living-room, and tell your kids that they should not eat the cookies, but they do. You then go into a hissy fit, even though it was obvious that they would eat the cookies, you know kids after all. You get so angry that you abandon them. After several years, they have not turned out too good . You are the town's sheriff and judge, and they commit a crime. You sort of feel a bit bad that they are now criminals, so you decide to spend a couple of days in the slammer on their behalf, then declare all of their crimes have been paid. Whose responsibility is it that they turned out to be criminals in the first place?

He won’t come to your mind unless you believe, if you want proof that there is a God, humility first, this is the way he wants it.

Sorry, but hokey platitudes and foetid spiritual-speak do not have any effect on me.

[edge]

Quote:
What would you do/give?
You have nothing to give that God would want?
You:
And you know this how? Why does this God think that it is fine to spend a bad weekend to erase your sins, but it is not enough for me to make up for my own faults?
Because it is written you cannot enter because of your works alone, quote Jesus.
He wants us to be successful.
Quote:
We all take responsibility in this world, but you can’t wash what you have done that means to shed it because you can’t be in his presence unless you believe that he took it upon himself.
Sigh. No, the entire point about Christianity is that it is a responsibility-shifting exercise. You are not responsible for anything!
Oh no there is a limit a point of no return.



You say:
He did not really die, did he? He was tortured and was out for just over a day, knowing fully well that he would be coming back good as new. That is no sacrifice.

Me: He experienced death in this reality and the worst you could imagine, at the hands of us.

The major statement was to us and the Hebrews was that sacrifice of animals could never do it, so all that was ended.
God doesn’t want dead animal spirits as atonement, he can get all those he wants, what he wants is to be able to talk with you directly, and it’s not about repetitious praying or worship but of guidance and recognition/acknowledgment and belief.
The way you talk with friends.

There really was a Davy Crockett. That doesn't mean he killed him a b'ar when he was only three.

See how that works?

But not impossible.
Depends on how many witnesses and the maturity of Crockett as a child, they may have got his age wrong.


If there is a god you don't know it's mind and you don't speak for it.

Not only is it written, but that’s how it works, and I know an infinitesimal fraction of it because I believe, I know enough that I will never disbelieve.
Gift of god…It is written that we are to speak of God and the son.

Why can't I pay for my own sins? What is wrong of taking personal responsibility for my own actions?

With what? You will take responsibility here and later no one said you wouldn’t.

Do you think you could become sinless till your death?

Jesus didn’t know all of the Fathers plan for him as his memories were pretty much wiped clean at birth also that is the reason even he had to have guidance and reassurance from the Father, and only because of his faith was he made perfect.

So if you can achieve perfection in faith and not sin till your death you may stand a chance at judgment, but God knows the future the past and the present and knows no one can do that.

Believe me Christians sin, but they do not blaspheme.
We continually ask for forgiveness, but there is a point of no return, get it?

This is all a learning process, for instance if you lust after woman you will learn through old age how insignificant that lust is compared to eternity and the aging process and then what is important to you.

[Elizabeth I]

There really was a Davy Crockett. That doesn't mean he killed him a b'ar when he was only three.

See how that works?

But not impossible.
Depends on how many witnesses and the maturity of Crockett as a child, they may have got his age wrong.

Good - you're getting it. Yes, there was a Davy Crockett who was an expert hunter and woodsman, and yes, the stories about him are probably exaggerated or simply mistaken.

Likewise, there could have been an itinerant charismatic preacher named Yeshua (it was a common Hebrew name, after all.) He could even have gotten crosswise with the Roman authorities and been crucified. (Again, it was a common punishment.) That doesn't mean everything the Bible says about Jesus is true.

However, I notice you chose the "Davy Crockett" item to respond to, not the two about real-live people who were believed to be gods, but weren't.

[Foster Zygote]

Right off you disbelieve but accept that he was real????
Accepting that an apocalyptic rabbi named Jeshua ben Joseph probably existed in the early first century is not the same as accepting the stories that arose regarding him in the centuries after his death.

Let me ask you this: Because Saint Nicholas was a real man born around 270 A.D. in modern day Turkey, do you believe that he lives at the North Pole with toy-making elves and flying reindeer?

The whole point is you can’t pay for your sins and this is what has been done for you in a way apparently you can’t understand, what would you give God in repentance for those sins?
It isn't a lack of understanding, it's a lack of agreement. Many people simply don't agree with your concept of sin and redemption. I don't believe in a cosmic judge who will punish us for doing wrong (especially when the definition of "wrong" being used includes acts that harm no one). I certainly don't believe in a judge who finds us all deserving of the worst possible punishment.

[RandFan]

Not only is it written...Harry Potter is written.

I know an infinitesimal fraction of it because I believe, I know enough that I will never disbelieve.Circular. Dogmatic. Sounds like a typical Mormon, Jehova's Witness, Seventh Day Adventist, Muslim, Scientologist, Hindu, Sikh, etc..

[edge]

Harry Potter is written.

Circular. Dogmatic. Sounds like a typical Mormon, Jehova's Witness, Seventh Day Adventist, Muslim, Scientologist, Hindu, Sikh, etc..

None of the above.
If I just go by what I got personally I will not disbelieve.

Let alone what is written.

What can persuade you that God exists?
If you do not seek God he will seek you, if not here on the other side.

So if you seek the other side you'll know.
Don't have to believe in God to do that.

Some one back several pages said, "the son of Sam said, the devil made him do it".

Has it occurred to you that maybe he was telling the truth?

[Paulhoff]

Jesus didn’t know all of the Fathers plan for him as his memories were pretty much wiped clean at birth also that is the reason even he had to have guidance and reassurance from the Father, and only because of his faith was he made perfect.
HELLOOOOOO, Father, son and ghost thing, all the same according to you guys, they all are one, all know the plans.

Paul

:) :) :)

[KingMerv00]

Some one back several pages said, "the son of Sam said, the devil made him do it".

Has it occurred to you that maybe he was telling the truth?

Perhaps he was telling the truth insofar as he believed what he was saying. That doesn't me we should just take his word for it.

[kuroyume0161]

Perhaps he was telling the truth insofar as he believed what he was saying. That doesn't me we should just take his word for it.

Whenever possible, blame things on the big, red, cloven-hooved, horned dude. That is admissible in court, right? :D

[Paulhoff]

What can persuade you that God exists?
1. The need for one.

2. Which so-called god?

3. What makes you think there is only one, because yours does not say there is only one, it only says not to worship any other so-called god.

Paul

:) :) :)

[KingMerv00]

Whenever possible, blame things on the big, red, cloven-hooved, horned dude. That is admissible in court, right? :D

This (http://kevinunderhill.typepad.com/Documents/Mayo_v_Satan.pdf) is a real case, swear to God.

[AvalonXQ]

HELLOOOOOO, Father, son and ghost thing, all the same according to you guys, they all are one, all know the plans.

Sorry, according to which guys?
The view that Jesus did not know as much as YHWH while He was on earth is shared by many Christians. It's a mistake to act like there's some sort of monolithic understanding that everyone who professes belief in Christ also shares.

[kuroyume0161]

This (http://kevinunderhill.typepad.com/Documents/Mayo_v_Satan.pdf) is a real case, swear to God.

Lol! :D

"Satan and His Staff" - precious. My precious. Sauron and His Minions made me do it because I had the One Ring. Golem. Golem.

Need another cup of coffee now and a cleaning towel. :)

[Paulhoff]

Sorry, according to which guys?
The view that Jesus did not know as much as YHWH while He was on earth is shared by many Christians. It's a mistake to act like there's some sort of monolithic understanding that everyone who professes belief in Christ also shares.
Most of them talk as they are one in the same, you do know I do live with these people, this is stuff I've heard over and over and.........

Paul

:) :) :)

[dafydd]

None of the above.
If I just go by what I got personally I will not disbelieve.

Let alone what is written.

What can persuade you that God exists?
If you do not seek God he will seek you, if not here on the other side.

So if you seek the other side you'll know.
Don't have to believe in God to do that.

Some one back several pages said, "the son of Sam said, the devil made him do it".

Has it occurred to you that maybe he was telling the truth?

No.

[AvalonXQ]

Most of them talk as they are one in the same, you do know I do live with these people, this is stuff I've heard over and over and.........

It's a mistake to assume that whatever you've heard from the people you interact with is an accurate representation of "universal Christian theology" (if there even is such a thing).

[RandFan]

If I just go by what I got personally I will not disbelieve.Why are all of them right and you are wrong? Why are you so much smarter than Saint Augustine, Kant, C.S. Lewis, Newton, Blaise Pascal, Boole and so many of the finest minds in human history?

I guess your special.


What can persuade you that God exists?
If you do not seek God he will seek you, if not here on the other side.

So if you seek the other side you'll know.
Don't have to believe in God to do that.
I served a mission. I studied theology at University. I spent many days fasting and in contemplation. I've been on my knees for hours at a time.

I got nothing.

[HansMustermann]

Sorry, according to which guys?
The view that Jesus did not know as much as YHWH while He was on earth is shared by many Christians. It's a mistake to act like there's some sort of monolithic understanding that everyone who professes belief in Christ also shares.

Well, yes, and some on the other hand (including at least one pope) believe(d) that they were so connected that the Father felt the pain when Junior was on the Cross. BDSM by proxy, kinda.

And then some believe that sticking your fingers up the nose and blowing hard increased your IQ.

Ahem, sorry, what I meant to say is: when the Christianity gang can't even agree with each other about what it all means or exactly what they believe in, then why should I pay them any attention? I especially love it when they come with ideas like (A) that it's all somehow self-evident, or (B) ample proof exists all around, or (C) you just need to pray and you'll receive it, or (D) we're even _born_ Christian, some just choose to deny it, or (E) you just need a shot of Holy Spirit to understand it all... but somehow each of them understood a different thing anyway.

[Paulhoff]

It's a mistake to assume that whatever you've heard from the people you interact with is an accurate representation of "universal Christian theology" (if there even is such a thing).
Even when they come from all over the country, geeeee.

Paul

:) :) :)

Oh, and there is this thing they call TV, shows more people from around the world.

[AvalonXQ]

Ahem, sorry, what I meant to say is: when the Christianity gang can't even agree with each other about what it all means or exactly what they believe in, then why should I pay them any attention?

It's unreasonable to assume that disagreement among adherents implies that they're all wrong, just as it's unreasonable to assume that an extremist in some direction is most likely right, or that the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Truth is not a popularity contest. The spectrum of available views is not correlated to the accuracy of any of them, regardless of the field of thought.

[HansMustermann]

It's unreasonable to assume that disagreement among adherents implies that they're all wrong, just as it's unreasonable to assume that an extremist in some direction is most likely right, or that the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Truth is not a popularity contest. The spectrum of available views is not correlated to the accuracy of any of them, regardless of the field of thought.

Well, yes, truth is a matter of evidence, neither of which have. Technically that's the end of the story.

What I'm picking on is the pretense that they don't need evidence because it's (in one way or another) self-evident. I'm sorry, but something self-evident should be just that. E.g., that it's a sunny day outside or not, is a self-evident thing and doesn't need any further evidence. But if you ask 10,000 people on the street that, you'll get the same answer. _Because_ it's self-evident. Something where 10,000 fundies understood 10,000 wildly different things is _not_ self-evident.

So we're back to "where is the evidence" :p

[AvalonXQ]

What I'm picking on is the pretense that they don't need evidence because it's (in one way or another) self-evident. I'm sorry, but something self-evident should be just that. E.g., that it's a sunny day outside or not, is a self-evident thing and doesn't need any further evidence. But if you ask 10,000 people on the street that, you'll get the same answer. _Because_ it's self-evident. Something where 10,000 fundies understood 10,000 wildly different things is _not_ self-evident.

I don't accept your premise that whether or not something is (should be?) self-evident is dependent on whether or not people choose to accept it. If there are confounding factors, people may choose to deny, nit-pick, or otherwise reject "self-evident" facts.
If I had bet you $10,000 that it would be a sunny day today, you might very well look for a reason that today's weather isn't really sunny -- whether it's a "chance of clouds" on the weather report, or a debate about what "sunny" means, or something else. And you might very well convince yourself that you genuinely believe that today isn't sunny.
When it comes to matters of religion, there's a whole lot more than $10,000 at stake.

[HansMustermann]

Ah, right. Somehow it's not those who delude themselves to believe in what has no evidence at all that are deluded, it's somehow the others who convinced themselves to see it otherwise. Thanks. You illustrate fundy idiocy far better than I could.

[AvalonXQ]

The point is that whether or not something is readily agreed-upon by anyone is not determinative of whether or not an honest and open evaluation of the evidence would arrive at a single conclusion.
I honestly believe that there is a singular, striaghtforward body of religious practice that can be determined by an uncluttered reading of the Bible, and this is what I say that the Christian faith is. People who practice Christianity using tenets inconsistent with these arrive at their tenets by some process other than an honest reading of Scripture. In fact, many Christian groups admit this.
And the fact that they choose, for other reasons, not to interpret the Bible in a singularly direct way does not imply that such a reading does not exist.

[Paulhoff]

When one believes in magical thinking, the BS never ends..........

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t002.html


Paul

:) :) :)

[paximperium]

The point is that whether or not something is readily agreed-upon by anyone is not determinative of whether or not an honest and open evaluation of the evidence would arrive at a single conclusion.
I honestly believe that there is a singular, striaghtforward body of religious practice that can be determined by an uncluttered reading of the Bible, and this is what I say that the Christian faith is. People who practice Christianity using tenets inconsistent with these arrive at their tenets by some process other than an honest reading of Scripture. In fact, many Christian groups admit this.
And the fact that they choose, for other reasons, not to interpret the Bible in a singularly direct way does not imply that such a reading does not exist.
I'm sorry but countless millions of other "Christians" also believe your homemade religion to not be a Christianity at all.

[AvalonXQ]

When one believes in magical thinking, the BS never ends..........

Which reminds me, do you have a resource for what exactly is meant by "magical thinking"? I've seen the term thrown around a bit and know it has something to do with "woo", but I haven't seen anything on the specifics.

[paximperium]

Which reminds me, do you have a resource for what exactly is meant by "magical thinking"? I've seen the term thrown around a bit and know it has something to do with "woo", but I haven't seen anything on the specifics.
Never bothering to look does not mean it magically does not exist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_thinking

[KingMerv00]

The point is that whether or not something is readily agreed-upon by anyone is not determinative of whether or not an honest and open evaluation of the evidence would arrive at a single conclusion.
I honestly believe that there is a singular, striaghtforward body of religious practice that can be determined by an uncluttered reading of the Bible, and this is what I say that the Christian faith is. People who practice Christianity using tenets inconsistent with these arrive at their tenets by some process other than an honest reading of Scripture. In fact, many Christian groups admit this.
And the fact that they choose, for other reasons, not to interpret the Bible in a singularly direct way does not imply that such a reading does not exist.

The fact that there are a dozen "singular, straightforword bodies of religious practice that can be determined by an uncluttered reading of the Bible" makes one wonder though.

[Elizabeth I]

The point is that whether or not something is readily agreed-upon by anyone is not determinative of whether or not an honest and open evaluation of the evidence would arrive at a single conclusion.

I honestly believe that there is a singular, striaghtforward body of religious practice that can be determined by an uncluttered reading of the Bible, and this is what I say that the Christian faith is. People who practice Christianity using tenets inconsistent with these arrive at their tenets by some process other than an honest reading of Scripture. In fact, many Christian groups admit this.

And the fact that they choose, for other reasons, not to interpret the Bible in a singularly direct way does not imply that such a reading does not exist.

(Highlighting mine)

And herein lies one of the problems. Your version is self-evident to you, and perhaps to others of your church, if you have such. Snake-handlers' version is self-evident to them, and so on.

If it's self-evident, it ought to be...well, self-evident.

[AvalonXQ]

The fact that there are a dozen "singular, straightforword bodies of religious practice that can be determined by an uncluttered reading of the Bible" makes one wonder though.

Nope, just the one. That's the point.

[paximperium]

Nope, just the one. That's the point.
Nope, that's the bare assertion by fiat.

[Paulhoff]

Which reminds me, do you have a resource for what exactly is meant by "magical thinking"? I've seen the term thrown around a bit and know it has something to do with "woo", but I haven't seen anything on the specifics.
Woo........... Magical thinking.............. Anything not grounded in reality but believed in, and/or grounded on false information and/or no information at all, as in, “Gee that sounds good, must be true”. Dogma can also come under this, as when new information supersedes old and it is not let go.

Paul

:) :) :)

[AvalonXQ]

Woo........... Magical thinking.............. Anything not grounded in reality but believed in, and/or grounded on false information and/or no information at all, as in, “Gee that sounds good, must be true”. Dogma can also come under this, as when new information supersedes old and it is not let go

How is this any different from "magical thinking is any time you believe in something that I don't believe in"?

[paximperium]

Woo........... Magical thinking.............. Anything not grounded in reality but believed in, and/or grounded on false information and/or no information at all, as in, “Gee that sounds good, must be true”. Dogma can also come under this, as when new information supersedes old and it is not let go.

Paul

:) :) :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coincidental_correlation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult

[Paulhoff]

How is this any different from "magical thinking is any time you believe in something that I don't believe in"?
Don't play games.

Paul

:) :) :)

[paximperium]

How is this any different from "magical thinking is any time you believe in something that I don't believe in"?
Logic and evidence.

[KingMerv00]

How is this any different from "magical thinking is any time you believe in something that I don't believe in"?

No. I'd define "magical thinking" as habitually finding cause and effect between events without justification. (AKA superstition)

Ultimately, it comes down to logic and evidence.

[AvalonXQ]

Woo........... Magical thinking.............. Anything not grounded in reality but believed in, and/or grounded on false information and/or no information at all, as in, “Gee that sounds good, must be true”. Dogma can also come under this, as when new information supersedes old and it is not let go.

Paul

:) :) :)

A belief is magical thinking if it is:
- Not grounded in "reality" (according to whom?)
- Grounded on false information (that who knows is false? by what standard?)
- Grounded on no information at all
- Superseded by new information without a change in belief

I was expecting something more substantive about the process of magical thinking, and how it differs from a scientific thought process. Instead, I was given something that pretty much boils down to "a belief that I don't think you should have." Again, is there any belief that you disagree with that does not fit this definition? How is "magical thinking" different from "being wrong"?

[AvalonXQ]

No. I'd define "magical thinking" as habitually finding cause and effect between events without justification. (AKA superstition)

Ah! That's a definition I can understand and get behind. Thank you.

Considering that my religious beliefs are not based on phenomenology at all, how are they "magical thinking"?

[KingMerv00]

Ah! That's a definition I can understand and get behind. Thank you.

Considering that my religious beliefs are not based on phenomenology at all, how are they "magical thinking"?

I guess it depends on what those beliefs are. Give me an example. It may not fall under my definition of "magical thinking" but that doesn't mean it isn't irrational.

[James in New York]

“If Jesus came back and saw what was going on in his name, he would never stop throwing up.” --Woody Allen

;)