Iran needs help, but not from Israel

[Mycroft]

20,000 people die in earthquake in Bam, Iran

BAM, Iran - International rescue teams were flying into Iran on Saturday to join a frantic search for survivors from an earthquake that devastated the ancient Silk Road city of Bam, killing more than 20,000 people.

Two leading rescue officials said the final death toll from Friday's quake, which measured 6.3 on the Richter scale, could be 40,000. "As more bodies are pulled out, we fear that the death toll may reach as high as 40,000. An unbelievable human disaster has occurred," said Akbar Alavi, the governor of Kerman city, the local provincial capital...

Jahanbakhsh Khanjani, a spokesman for Iran's Interior Ministry, said Saturday that Iran would accept aid from all countries of the world, aside from Israel. The announcement followed statements by foreign correspondents in Jerusalem, who reported that the Foreign Ministry had said that unofficial Israeli sources were considering sending aid to Iran. "The Islamic Republic of Iran accepts all kinds of humanitarian aid from all countries and international organizations with the exception of the Zionist regime [Israel]," Khanjani said.

Good lord! Would they really rather let people die than accept aid from Israel?

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/376370.html

[corplinx]

Israel has a lot of baggage.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Mycroft


Good lord! Would they really rather let people die than accept aid from Israel?

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/376370.html

Of course, if you let Israel help then next thing you know Iranian will view Israelis as people and worst of all might think that Israel has a right to exist!

[Sherman]

I guess it saved the Israeli's a few shekels. Let me offer an old quote. "What goes around, comes around". Nature has it's way of thinning the herd. It could happen anywhere.

I'm more worried about Michael Jackson diddling little boys.

[Gem]

Good lord! Would they really rather let people die than accept aid from Israel?

Let me play devil's advocate. Would you accept aid from a Nazi Group? Would you accept aid from the Soviet Union? That's how the government (not the iranians, as far as I know) sees it.

It's symbolic. (For example, Canada refused to send athletes during the 1936 Olympics in Berlin)

They're making a dumb political statement, at the expense of well beings of others.

Gem

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Sherman
I guess it saved the Israeli's a few shekels. Let me offer an old quote. "What goes around, comes around". Nature has it's way of thinning the herd. It could happen anywhere.


Although (and at the risk of showing callously bad taste), living in a place called "Bam" might've been a tip-off...

[Sherman]

Originally posted by Gem


Let me play devil's advocate. Would you accept aid from a Nazi Group?
Gem

I would let Hitler himself rub aloe on my sunburn if it would heal the pain. What you do after that is an entirely different question.

[Troll]

Originally posted by Jocko


Although (and at the risk of showing callously bad taste), living in a place called "Bam" might've been a tip-off...

Fortunately Bombay changed their name to Mumbai. Explosion free for 124 work days.

[NullPointerException]

What I think is funny about this is that several clerics said 9/11 was punishment from Allah... A whole city is leveled by a natural disaster and I don't hear a peep about divine retribution... :hit:

[Jocko]

Originally posted by NullPointerException
What I think is funny about this is that several clerics said 9/11 was punishment from Allah... A whole city is leveled by a natural disaster and I don't hear a peep about divine retribution... :hit:

That's not half as funny as our own home-grown zealots who said it was punishment from God. Wasn't it Falwell who managed to tirade himself into blaming it on the gays?

[Troll]

Originally posted by Jocko


That's not half as funny as our own home-grown zealots who said it was punishment from God. Wasn't it Falwell who managed to tirade himself into blaming it on the gays?

You mean you have nothing against the gays? I guess this is where we part on our bigotry. Damn, I had such hope for you too.

Obviously I'm kidding. But yes it was Falwell. But he did apologize by saying he didn't mean to insult anyone. Not that he changed his tune or anything to prove it.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by NullPointerException
What I think is funny about this is that several clerics said 9/11 was punishment from Allah... A whole city is leveled by a natural disaster and I don't hear a peep about divine retribution... :hit:

I'm sure someone will get around to claiming it's divine punnishment for not resisting evil western influences.

[Otther]

Is anyone else wishing that sharon makes an incredibly large offering of help?

"Seeing as they have turned down our offering of the entire IDF budget, we'll be able to continue our defense of Isreal." :D

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Otther
Is anyone else wishing that sharon makes an incredibly large offering of help?

"Seeing as they have turned down our offering of the entire IDF budget, we'll be able to continue our defense of Isreal." :D

I think the middle east already has an abundance of irony. Still, it seems a shame to refuse help from the closest, wealthiest country in the neighborhood.

I don't know if I'd accept aloe from Hitler, but I might consider a sponge bath from Mussolini. I'll have to think about it.

[Troll]

Originally posted by Otther
Is anyone else wishing that sharon makes an incredibly large offering of help?

"Seeing as they have turned down our offering of the entire IDF budget, we'll be able to continue our defense of Isreal." :D

Damnit I was leaving for the night and kept seeing this post. I have to say what I'm about to say, otherwise AUP will come in and say it seriously, so I'll say it as a joke now and steal any possible thunder he may have tried for.

Israel should offer them the experience of their many bulldozers. The people are already dead so AUP won't have to worry about morons standing in front of them.

Bad taste? Yes. But I don't care. Doesn't mean I'm a racist or that I hate Iranians. so Fool can stop before he starts.

[Some Friggin Guy]

Originally posted by Troll


Damnit I was leaving for the night and kept seeing this post. I have to say what I'm about to say, otherwise AUP will come in and say it seriously, so I'll say it as a joke now and steal any possible thunder he may have tried for.

Israel should offer them the experience of their many bulldozers. The people are already dead so AUP won't have to worry about morons standing in front of them.

Bad taste? Yes. But I don't care. Doesn't mean I'm a racist or that I hate Iranians. so Fool can stop before he starts.

So...what have you got against bulldozers?

[Troll]

Originally posted by Some Friggin Guy


So...what have you got against bulldozers?

Short american women that the driver can't see. ;)

[Some Friggin Guy]

I KNEW it! You're a Caterpillarist!

[gnome]

Originally posted by Troll


You mean you have nothing against the gays? I guess this is where we part on our bigotry. Damn, I had such hope for you too.

Obviously I'm kidding. But yes it was Falwell. But he did apologize by saying he didn't mean to insult anyone. Not that he changed his tune or anything to prove it.

Kind of a backwards way of doing that same bit when you hear, "I don't mean to be a jerk, but {insert comment only a jerk would make}."

[Troll]

Originally posted by gnome


Kind of a backwards way of doing that same bit when you hear, "I don't mean to be a jerk, but {insert comment only a jerk would make}."

Totally agree. But can any of us truly be surprised by it coming from the likes of him?

[Mike B.]

Originally posted by Gem


Let me play devil's advocate. Would you accept aid from a Nazi Group? Would you accept aid from the Soviet Union? That's how the government (not the iranians, as far as I know) sees it.

It's symbolic. (For example, Canada refused to send athletes during the 1936 Olympics in Berlin)

They're making a dumb political statement, at the expense of well beings of others.

Gem

I could maybe understand this if they refused money from Sudan, North Korea, etc. which are regimes that have a much higher body count than the Israel/Palestine conflict.

So let's face it, this is pure anti-semitism.

[karl]

Originally posted by Mycroft

I'm sure someone will get around to claiming it's divine punnishment for not resisting evil western influences.

One convenient explanation goes as follows:

Earthquakes don't kill people. Poverty kills people. An earthquake of roughly similar magnitude hit California not long ago, with a death toll of only three (?). Poor nations don't have the means to construct buildings that can withstand tremors, or to dispense aid to the victims fast enough.

Who is considered responsible for the poverty of Iran is left as an exercise for the reader.

[Nasarius]

The people are already dead so AUP won't have to worry about morons standing in front of them.

Wow. Just...wow. I guess the guy in Tiananmen Square was just a "moron" too, right?

[Hutch]

Originally posted by Mike B.


So let's face it, this is pure anti-semitism.

I would dissent slightly on that, Mike, Iran is Anti-Zionist, not necessarily Anti-semitic (although no one would deny that a percentage of Arabs/Muslims are prejudiced against all Jews, as indeed are some Euros and Americans.

In the Islamic world, the term Zionist has specific connotations that are separate from the Jewish faith, and is seen more as a thocratic-political movement to drive Arabs from their land.

For much of history, Jews have been able to live within Arab lands without the same levels of persecution found in Europe--bias most definitely, but not the pogroms or massacres that dot European history. It has been what the Arabs see as the "Zionists" taking over Arab land based on a 2000-year old claim that has poisoned the waters.

Now before everyone jumps upon this poor old bald guy, I am not saying this view is "right"--too bloody many people on all sides are so sure they are right on so many things--just that the Iranian viewpoint is anti-Zionist, not by nature anti-Semetic.

Now, if a Jewish group not associated with Israel was to offer aid and be rejected, I might have to amend my thinking on this.....maybe Jews for Jesus could offer aid as an experiment? ;)

[Mike B.]

Originally posted by karl


One convenient explanation goes as follows:

Earthquakes don't kill people. Poverty kills people. An earthquake of roughly similar magnitude hit California not long ago, with a death toll of only three (?). Poor nations don't have the means to construct buildings that can withstand tremors, or to dispense aid to the victims fast enough.

Who is considered responsible for the poverty of Iran is left as an exercise for the reader.

I knew an elderly gentleman who is since deceased who was stationed in what was then Persia in World War II. He was on a base that moved Lend Lease supplies into the Soviet Union.

He always told how amazed he was at the poverty in the country. When the base got rid of its trash, they would bulldoze over it in the desert, and thousands of locals would descend on it trying to find something to eat. He also saw defication in the streets because of a lack of any sewage system in some cities.

My guess is that Iran had actually made good progress sinced then. As bad as the Shah was, I wonder if helped modernize the country.

[Mike B.]

Originally posted by Hutch


I would dissent slightly on that, Mike, Iran is Anti-Zionist, not necessarily Anti-semitic (although no one would deny that a percentage of Arabs/Muslims are prejudiced against all Jews, as indeed are some Euros and Americans.

In the Islamic world, the term Zionist has specific connotations that are separate from the Jewish faith, and is seen more as a thocratic-political movement to drive Arabs from their land.

For much of history, Jews have been able to live within Arab lands without the same levels of persecution found in Europe--bias most definitely, but not the pogroms or massacres that dot European history. It has been what the Arabs see as the "Zionists" taking over Arab land based on a 2000-year old claim that has poisoned the waters.

Now before everyone jumps upon this poor old bald guy, I am not saying this view is "right"--too bloody many people on all sides are so sure they are right on so many things--just that the Iranian viewpoint is anti-Zionist, not by nature anti-Semetic.

Now, if a Jewish group not associated with Israel was to offer aid and be rejected, I might have to amend my thinking on this.....maybe Jews for Jesus could offer aid as an experiment? ;)

OK but as far as I know Iranians are not Arabs, but Persians.

[Hutch]

Originally posted by Mike B.


OK but as far as I know Iranians are not Arabs, but Persians.

Concur, Mike, which is why I added Muslims after Arabs--but you are right, I should have been more accurate.

And my dad also drove Lend-Lease through that country during WWII...never talked much about it except when he helped haul a Russian convoy out of the sand and was repaid by the Russian CO with a bottle of Vodka:eek:

One reason I think for the death tolls we see in Iran is the lack of reinforced steel in most construction. Most of the houses there are mortar and concrete, often not of the best quality, and with no reinforcement, so collapse is more likely than say, in steel and reinforced structures in, say, California.

And BTW, has the Falwell/Robertson cabal taken credit and/or assessed blame for this natural disaster yet? Just curious.

[Ed]

Originally posted by karl


One convenient explanation goes as follows:

Earthquakes don't kill people. Poverty kills people. An earthquake of roughly similar magnitude hit California not long ago, with a death toll of only three (?). Poor nations don't have the means to construct buildings that can withstand tremors, or to dispense aid to the victims fast enough.

Who is considered responsible for the poverty of Iran is left as an exercise for the reader.

Be careful. You are coming very close to exhibiting racist tendencies when you allude to the purported structural defects of traditional, indiginous building techniques.

You also have committed a progressive gaff in not working blame onto both the US and Isreal. The US for supporting the Shah and Isreal for being, well, Joooooos.

Please get in right in the future.

[Skeptic]

Good lord! Would they really rather let people die than accept aid from Israel?

Since when does human life matter in totalitarian regimes like Iran?

[Skeptic]

I don't know if I'd accept aloe from Hitler, but I might consider a sponge bath from Mussolini. I'll have to think about it.

While Mussolini was, to say the least, not a nice guy, he was never anywhere close to Hitler.

The irony of the thing is that Hitler turned to politics after not getting into art school, while Mussolini did the same after a novel he's written ("The Cardinal's daughter") failed.

If only they succeeded, we'd be reading the famous novelist Mussolini, illustrated by A. Hitler, the well-known painter. There would have been a few other fringe benefits as well.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Skeptic
I don't know if I'd accept aloe from Hitler, but I might consider a sponge bath from Mussolini. I'll have to think about it.

While Mussolini was, to say the least, not a nice guy, he was never anywhere close to Hitler.

The irony of the thing is that Hitler turned to politics after not getting into art school, while Mussolini did the same after a novel he's written ("The Cardinal's daughter") failed.

If only they succeeded, we'd be reading the famous novelist Mussolini, illustrated by A. Hitler, the well-known painter. There would have been a few other fringe benefits as well.

Dictators are "funny" like that. Stalin wanted to be a priest at one point.

[VicDaring]

Originally posted by Jocko


Although (and at the risk of showing callously bad taste), living in a place called "Bam" might've been a tip-off...

Is Emeril sending aid?

[Troll]

Originally posted by Nasarius


Wow. Just...wow. I guess the guy in Tiananmen Square was just a "moron" too, right?

This has been gone over before in an old thread, but I'll say it again.

He had balls and was quite noble and sincere and stood by his convictions. Doesn't sound like a moron there. He took a big freaking chance by standing in front of a tank and was lucky the guys in the tank saw him and decided to stop. Not exactly a bright thing to do, but still ballsy. But then balls don't equate to brains. Nobody said morons can't be heros or that heros aren't made such because of some moronic action.

Now we're not talking about a guy that got lucky while standing on a flat street out in the open. Sure the lady tried to do the same thing ( like kids that watch wrestling trying some wrestling moves on one another because, hey, it worked on tv), only she didn't take into consideration variances in conditions, such as the field of view from the bulldozer, the noise factor as buildings were being destroyed etc.

Yes both were quite brave and stood by their convictions, which is admirable. Both did something rather dumb and one got lucky.

Loads of people don't like SUV's. Are they cowards because they don't run out in front of them on the highway to stop them from driving? No, they're just a little brighter than those that would think about doing that.

[boooeee]

Originally Posted by Grammatron
Dictators are "funny" like that. Stalin wanted to be a priest at one point.
Yep. Didn't Pol Pot start out as a school teacher?

I think Franko (Franco?) began as a greeter at Wal-Mart.

[renata]

Originally posted by Hutch



For much of history, Jews have been able to live within Arab lands without the same levels of persecution found in Europe--bias most definitely, but not the pogroms or massacres that dot European history. It has been what the Arabs see as the "Zionists" taking over Arab land based on a 2000-year old claim that has poisoned the waters.


Actually, that is incorrect. Treatment of Jews varied heavily country to country. Some places they flourished with little or no persecution, some places they were severely oppressed through centuries.

This site has some obvious bias, but as far as I know, it has basic history right.

http://www.hsje.org/jews_kicked_out_of_arab_countrie.htm


Some examples

Iraq


in 1776, there was a slaughter of Jews
at Bosra, and in bitterness of anti Jewish measures taken by Turkish Muslim rulers in the 18th century caused many Jews to flea.
....
Under Muslim rule, beginning in the 7th century, the situation of the community fluctuated. Many Jews held high positions in government or prospered in commerce and trade. At the same time, Jews were subjected to special taxes, restrictions on their professional activity, and anti-Jewish incitement among the masses. Under British rule, which began in 1917, Jews fared well economically, and many were elected to government posts. This traditionally observant community was also allowed to found Zionist organizations and to pursue Hebrew studies.
All of this progress ended when Iraq gained independence in 1932. In June 1941, the Mufti-inspired, pro-Nazi coup of Rashid Ali sparked rioting and a pogrom in Baghdad. Armed Iraqi mobs, with the complicity of the police and the army, murdered 180 Jews and wounded almost 1,000.
....
Additional outbreaks of anti-Jewish rioting occurred between 1946-49. After the establishment of Israel in 1948, Zionism became a capital crime.

Yemen


In Yemen from the seventh century on the Jewish populations suffered the severest possible interpretation of the Charter of Omar. For about 4 centuries, the Jews suffered under the fierce fanatical edict of the most intolerant Islamic sects.

...
The Yemen Epistle by Rambam in which he commiserated with Yemen's Jewry and besought them to keep the faith, and in
1724 fanatical rulers ordered synagogues destroyed, and Jewish public prayers were forbidden. The Jews were exiled, many died from starvation and the survivors were ordered to settle in Mausa, but later, this order was annulled by a decree in 1781 due to the need of their skilled craftsmen. Jacob Sappir a Jerusalem writer describes Yemeni Jews in Yemen in 1886:
"The Arab natives have always considered the Jew unclean, but his blood for them was not considered unclean. They lay claims to all his belongings, and if he is unwilling, they employ force...The Jews live outside the town in dark dwellings like prison cells or caves out of fear...for the least offense, he is sentenced to outrageous fines, which he is quite unable to pay. In case of non-payment, he is put in chains and cruelly beaten every day. Before the punishment is inflicted, the Cadi[judge] addresses him in entle tones and urges him to change his faith and obtain a share of all the glory of this world and of the world beyond. His refusal is again regarded as penal obstinacy. On the other hand, it is not open to the Jew to prosecute a Muslim, as the Muslim by right of law can dispose of the life and the property of the Jew, and it is only to be regarded as an act of magnanimity if the Jews are allowed to live. The Jew is not admissible as a witness, nor
has his oath any validity.".
.....
The Jews did not improve until the establishment of the French Protectorate in 1912, when they were given equality and religious autonomy. However, during World War II, when France was ruled by the anti-Semitic Vichy government, King Muhammed V prevented the deportation of Jews from Morocco.In 1922, the government of Yemen reintroduced an ancient Islamic law that
decreed that Jewish orphans under age 12 were to be forcibly converted to Islam.





Morocco



The Jewish community of present-day Morocco dates back more than 2,000 years. There were Jews living there, before it became a Roman province. in 1032 AD, 6000 Jews were murdered. Indeed he greatest persecution by the Arabs towards the Jews was in Fez, Morocco, nothing was worse than the slaughter of 120,000
Jews in 1146
.....
In 1391 a wave of Jewish refugees expelled from Spain brought new life to the community, as did new arrivals from Spain and Portugal in 1492 and 1497. From 1438, the Jews of Fez were forced to live in special quarters called mellahs, a name derived from the Arabic word for salt because the Jews in Morocco were
forced to carry out the job of salting the heads of executed prisoners prior to their public display. Chouraqui sums it up when he wrote: "such restriction and humiliation as to exceed anything in Europe". Charles de Foucauld in 1883 who was not generally
sympathetic to Jews writes of the Jews: "They are the most unfortunate of men, every Jew belongs body and soul to his seigneur, the sid[Arab master]". Similarly, in 1465, Arab mobs in Fez slaughtered thousands of Jews, leaving only 11 alive, after a Jewish deputy vizier treated a Muslim woman in "an offensive manner." The killings touched off a wave of similar massacres throughout Morocco.




Tunisia



The first documented evidence of Jews in this area dates back to 200 A.D and demonstrates the existence of a community in Latin Carthage under Roman rule. Latin Carthage contained a significant Jewish presence, and several sages mentioned in the Talmud lived in this area from the 2nd to the 4th centuries.
....
In the 16th century, the "hated and despised" Jews of Tunis were periodically attacked by violence and they were subjected to "vehement anti-Jewish policy" during the various political struggles of the period. In 1869 Muslims butchered many Jews in the defenseless ghetto.
.....
Improvements in the condition of the community occurred during the reign of Ahmed Bey, which began in 1837. He and his successors implemented liberal legislation, and a large number of Jews rose to positions of political power during this reign.

Under French rule, Jews were gradually emancipated. However, beginning in November 1940, when the country was ruled by the Vichy authorities, Jews were subject to anti-Semitic laws. From November 1942 until May 1943, the country was occupied by German forces. During that time, the condition of the Jews deteriorated further, and many were deported to labor camps and had their property seized.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Troll


This has been gone over before in an old thread, but I'll say it again.

He had balls and was quite noble and sincere and stood by his convictions. Doesn't sound like a moron there. He took a big freaking chance by standing in front of a tank and was lucky the guys in the tank saw him and decided to stop. Not exactly a bright thing to do, but still ballsy. But then balls don't equate to brains. Nobody said morons can't be heros or that heros aren't made such because of some moronic action.

Now we're not talking about a guy that got lucky while standing on a flat street out in the open. Sure the lady tried to do the same thing ( like kids that watch wrestling trying some wrestling moves on one another because, hey, it worked on tv), only she didn't take into consideration variances in conditions, such as the field of view from the bulldozer, the noise factor as buildings were being destroyed etc.

Yes both were quite brave and stood by their convictions, which is admirable. Both did something rather dumb and one got lucky.

Loads of people don't like SUV's. Are they cowards because they don't run out in front of them on the highway to stop them from driving? No, they're just a little brighter than those that would think about doing that.

F@ckwit. Once again. Comparing disliking SUVs to standing up to tanks.

Another peaceful protest. http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/12/20/1071868701955.html Funny about this, but there were Jews and Xians there as well.

The IDF opened fire on them. http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/12/28/1072546410304.html wounding an Israeli who was among the protesters. Now how f#cking stupid was he? I bet you his whole family is wondering what mental defect he is suffering.

[Troll]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


F@ckwit. Once again. Comparing disliking SUVs to standing up to tanks.

Another peaceful protest. http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/12/20/1071868701955.html Funny about this, but there were Jews and Xians there as well.

The IDF opened fire on them. http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/12/28/1072546410304.html wounding an Israeli who was among the protesters. Now how f#cking stupid was he? I bet you his whole family is wondering what mental defect he is suffering.

Well this was the first mention of SUVs on my part.

What difference does it make about the people's religion or ethnicity? May as well have said there were cat and dog owners there.

And here's where you make the same mistake you always make. You get it into that little brain of yours that because I feel one way about a certain action that it must apply to all forms of peaceful protest, or protests in general. I doubt he went there to stand in front of a moving bullet to make a point,in fact I'm willing ot bet the bullet was actually a bit of a surprise to him, so I'd hardly feel calling him a moron would be applicable. You, on the other hand ................:D

[Hutch]

Renata, thanks for the data, I'm always willing to add things to my three surviving brain cells.

My thoughts were more on Islamic Spain and the "Holy Land" at the time of the Crusades, but that Jews could be persecuted in Arab lands also showed they lived there, and by the histories you provided, at least at times and places in peace with the Arabs. The incidents you mention were often (as they were and are today in Europe and elsewhere) driven more by local politics than an overarching religious bias, IMHO.

Still, interesting information. thanks.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by Hutch
The incidents you mention were often (as they were and are today in Europe and elsewhere) driven more by local politics than an overarching religious bias, IMHO.


Did you make an effort to find out? Or are you just making a decision to believe what you want to believe?

[Hutch]

Mycroft, IMHO = In my Humble OPINION. When I want to present something as factual I will be prepared to back it up. When I present it as a personal opinion, I will qualify it as such.

Now duck back into the Diogenes Club like a good Government Employee...;)

[phildonnia]

Originally posted by NullPointerException
What I think is funny about this is that several clerics said 9/11 was punishment from Allah... A whole city is leveled by a natural disaster and I don't hear a peep about divine retribution... :hit:

and on top of that you will still hear people bitching about the oppressive building codes in other countries.

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by NullPointerException
What I think is funny about this is that several clerics said 9/11 was punishment from Allah... A whole city is leveled by a natural disaster and I don't hear a peep about divine retribution...

This (http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/14726.htm) might help clear that up.

The ancient city of Bam, the epicenter of the quake, has a long history of destruction. It was first destroyed in an earthquake almost 1,900 years ago. But such is the unexplainable magnetism of Bam that, almost eight centuries later, it had become an important trading center with a cosmopolitan population of Muslims, Christians, Jews and Zoroastrians.

The city was again almost totally razed by an earthquake in 1911. But by the 1930s it had reemerged as a trading center and a producer of dates and pistachios. Then came other earthquakes in 1950 and 1966.

By the early 1970s, the government had decided not to allow people to build new houses in Bam itself. The city's ancient monuments were declared part of the heritage of mankind under UNESCO and no new buildings permits were issued for almost six years.

The revolutionary turmoil of 1978-79 provided racketeers with an opportunity to seize large chunks of land in Bam and use it for poorly designed and badly constructed houses and shops. The racket was backed by a group of powerful mullahs who, in exchange for a cut in the proceeds, issued fatwas (religious opinions) that canceled government orders that banned house-building in the city.

The mullahs claimed that the shah had wished to keep Bam empty because of a secret plan under which the city would be turned into a Zoroastrian center. They also dismissed warnings from the National Seismological Center in Tehran that opposed the repopulation of Bam. The mullahs claimed that the Hidden Imam would protect the new inhabitants of the city against all disasters.

Thus, more than half of those who died in the earthquake could be regarded as victims of a racket ran by mullahs and their associates with the help of religious prejudice and superstition.


The Mullahs are already on record promising divine protection from earthquakes in Bam.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by aerocontrols


This (http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/14726.htm) might help clear that up.

The Mullahs are already on record promising divine protection from earthquakes in Bam.

Isn't it obvious what happened? CIA kidnapped the real mullahs and replaced them with robots, then Mossad killed those robots and replaced with Clones who intern turned their wrath on the citizens of Bam.

[aerocontrols]

Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0,12858,1113895,00.html) and NY Post in agreement?!

Next we'll have word of cats and dogs living together.

I won't excerpt it - the whole thing is worth reading.


Then there is this (http://news.myway.com/top/article/id/375703|top|12-30-2003::09:45|reuters.html):


President Mohammad Khatami said Tuesday U.S. aid to earthquake victims in Iran, while welcome, would not alter the state of relations between the two arch foes who broke off ties nearly a quarter century ago.

"I don't think this incident will change our relations with the United States," Khatami told a news conference in the capital of southeastern Kerman province where officials say up to 50,000 people were killed in a quake that struck Friday.

I'm quite sure that my donation to Mercy Corps wasn't about 'buying off' the government of Iran. Dolt.

aerocontrols

[Troll]

Originally posted by aerocontrols
Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0,12858,1113895,00.html) and NY Post in agreement?!

Next we'll have word of cats and dogs living together.

I won't excerpt it - the whole thing is worth reading.


Then there is this (http://news.myway.com/top/article/id/375703|top|12-30-2003::09:45|reuters.html):




I'm quite sure that my donation to Mercy Corps wasn't about 'buying off' the government of Iran. Dolt.

aerocontrols

I can't explain it but I enjoyed the David Aaronovitch in the Guardian. Maybe it was this little excerpt from it:

"This is not a silly question. True, the Californians are much richer than the Iranians. But if you believed everything you read in the works of M Moore and others, you would anticipate a culture of corporate greed in which safety and regulation came way behind the desire to turn the quick buck. Instead you discover a society in which the protection of citizens from falling masonry seems to be regarded as enormously important. "

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by Hutch
Mycroft, IMHO = In my Humble OPINION. When I want to present something as factual I will be prepared to back it up. When I present it as a personal opinion, I will qualify it as such.

Now duck back into the Diogenes Club like a good Government Employee...;)

Some issues are purely a matter of opinion, others can be supported by facts. To substitute opinion for fact on an issue where people are willing to kill and/or die is irresponsible in the extreme.

Originally posted by Hutch
For much of history, Jews have been able to live within Arab lands without the same levels of persecution found in Europe--bias most definitely, but not the pogroms or massacres that dot European history. It has been what the Arabs see as the "Zionists" taking over Arab land based on a 2000-year old claim that has poisoned the waters.

The following map may help put your words into context. It’s from an Arabic site, so naturally Israel is labeled as “Palestine”.

http://www.arabbay.com/images/arabmap.gif

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Mycroft

The following map may help put your words into context. It’s from an Arabic site, so naturally Israel is labeled as “Palestine”.

http://www.arabbay.com/images/arabmap.gif

Here's some more context for youse guys. The United States has ceded a higher percentage of its territory to caribou and seals.

[Skeptic]

Isn't it obvious what happened? CIA kidnapped the real mullahs and replaced them with robots, then Mossad killed those robots and replaced with Clones who intern turned their wrath on the citizens of Bam.

...one of those clones is a lesbian, and two are invisible...

(Damn, SNL is still sometimes funny).

[Skeptic]

Aerocontrols--beat me to it. As usual, Amir Taheri sheds some light on the facts.

As Taheri said, "natural disasters" are, often at least, not completely "natural" but also due to human shortsightedness and corruption--like in this case.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Mycroft


Some issues are purely a matter of opinion, others can be supported by facts. To substitute opinion for fact on an issue where people are willing to kill and/or die is irresponsible in the extreme.



The following map may help put your words into context. It’s from an Arabic site, so naturally Israel is labeled as “Palestine”.

http://www.arabbay.com/images/arabmap.gif
did you read the maps title "the Arab world" you think Israel should be listed as part of "The arab world"??? It appears that the west bank occupied territories are what is labeled "palestine". So what point are you supporting with your misreading of a map?

[gnome]

I think he's making the point that there's lots of places for arabs to live.

But one has to factor in the perceived significance of that tiny patch of land. If there were lots of places for Israelis to live, would they give Jerusalem to the arabs?

It's unfortunate and irrational, but undeniable.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Mycroft


Good lord! Would they really rather let people die than accept aid from Israel?

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/376370.html

Sorry I'm late.

My, what short memories some of us have.

Iran says will fire Shihab-3 missiles if Israel attacks (http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/375626.html)

Shamkhani was responding to a statement made by Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz on Israel Radio's Persian-language broadcast last week, in which he implied that Israel would destroy Iran's nuclear reactors, as it did with Iraq's in the early 1980s, if it deemed this necessary for Israel's safety.


So, let's see... Israel threatens to attack Iran the week before the earthquake... and now everyone's scratching their heads when Iran says they don't want aid from this country? Bizarre.

[The idea]

Originally posted by Troll


I can't explain it but I enjoyed the David Aaronovitch in the Guardian. Maybe it was this little excerpt from it:

"This is not a silly question. True, the Californians are much richer than the Iranians. But if you believed everything you read in the works of M Moore and others, you would anticipate a culture of corporate greed in which safety and regulation came way behind the desire to turn the quick buck. Instead you discover a society in which the protection of citizens from falling masonry seems to be regarded as enormously important. "

Moore would have a simple answer. There's a fixed pie of building sturdiness in the world. By constructing sturdy buildings in California, Americans are preventing Iranians from building sturdy buildings. Thus, American capitalism is to blame for endangering the safety the Iranians.

Haven't you yet learned that, for every kind of good stuff in the world, there is a fixed pie of that stuff? Didn't you know that, in every case, those who have lots of good stuff are guilty of robbing those who don't have much good stuff?

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto

So, let's see... Israel threatens to attack Iran the week before the earthquake... and now everyone's scratching their heads when Iran says they don't want aid from this country? Bizarre.

Not everybody.

[Nikk]

Originally posted by The idea


Moore would have a simple answer. There's a fixed pie of building sturdiness in the world. By constructing sturdy buildings in California, Americans are preventing Iranians from building sturdy buildings. Thus, American capitalism is to blame for endangering the safety the Iranians.



You know what Moore is going to say before he says it? Wonderful, most impressive, positively psychic in fact. Why don't you go and prove your psychic powers? You know where to apply I'm sure.

[The idea]

Originally posted by Nikk
You know what Moore is going to say before he says it? [...]positively psychic
If two people put the same input into the same algorithm, then they can both get the same output. There's no need for psychic powers.

Perhaps you would like to challenge the authenticity of my copy of the Michael Moore Algorithm?

[zultr]

Last I checked, the US still considers Iran part of the axis of evil and the US is loathed due in large part to military action in the middle east and the provision of massive aid to Israel. So how come Iran doesn't mind if the US gives aid?

[epepke]

Originally posted by zultr
Last I checked, the US still considers Iran part of the axis of evil and the US is loathed due in large part to military action in the middle east and the provision of massive aid to Israel. So how come Iran doesn't mind if the US gives aid?

Not to put too fine a point on it, most of the messages about loathing and the reasons therefor are from US and European commentators who claim to speak for mid-Eastern Muslims as if they were a homogeneous bloc. Apart from some blatant propaganda, the actual commentary that comes out of the mid-East is far less naive.

[Nikk]

Originally posted by The idea

If two people put the same input into the same algorithm, then they can both get the same output. There's no need for psychic powers.

Perhaps you would like to challenge the authenticity of my copy of the Michael Moore Algorithm?

Perhaps you ought to publish your algorithm so that qualified minds can decide if it really is an algorithm. The best person to assess your claim is Mr Moore himself. Why don't you ask him.

By the way a reference to quantum mechanics, vibrations and wormholes in your post would give it more weight........in certain circles:D .

[Troll]

Originally posted by Nikk


You know what Moore is going to say before he says it? Wonderful, most impressive, positively psychic in fact. Why don't you go and prove your psychic powers? You know where to apply I'm sure.

It's hardly a psychic claim to use Moore as a model for his own claims. You take his past, come up with a hypothesis based upon it and then see if the hypothesis can be proven to be true. So while it is true that only Moore can prove it, his not yet having done so does not detract from the validity of the hypothesis itself. This is the standard process for theories.

That aside, it's also humorous.

[Nikk]

Originally posted by Troll


It's hardly a psychic claim to use Moore as a model for his own claims. You take his past, come up with a hypothesis based upon it and then see if the hypothesis can be proven to be true. So while it is true that only Moore can prove it, his not yet having done so does not detract from the validity of the hypothesis itself. This is the standard process for theories.

That aside, it's also humorous.

Hmmm. "The Idea" thinks his own post is an algorithm, you think it's a hypothesis and I think it's a clumsy attempt to drag in an irrelevant political agenda and thus a fit subject for mockery.

We'll have to agree to disagree I suppose.