Are there any other early reports that did or didn't happen?

[Luntoc]

I'm debating this other guy on another forum and he is making a big deal about BBC's early report on the collapse of building 7. I told him that there were other examples of things that were reported that turned out to be true while others weren't. I based it RKOwens debunking video but so far I haven't been able to find any other stories. If you can provide some with some links, thanks.

[Perfume V]

I think the problem is that a lot of these inaccurate early reports have also been taken as gospel by the conspiracy crowd (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2006/10/911_conspiracy_theory_1.html), so I'm not sure if there is one that you would both agree was clearly a misinterpretation. One of the weird things about Truthers is that they believe the mainstream media is an unimpeachable source, as long as it's straight after a disaster. Twenty-four, forty-eight hours afterwards, it becomes the source of all evil again.

The BBC/WTC7 claim is one of the most logically insane things in all of Trutherdom, though. So you're going to blow up a building and you want it to look like it collapsed naturally. The sensible thing to do is... what? Send out press releases to all the world's media saying the building has collapsed before you demolish it? Why would you do something that carried such a massive risk of exposure?

[Slayhamlet]

There've been a couple of threads on this topic. Here's one (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=81149). These aren't false reports necessarily made by the news media, however.

[Newtons Bit]

I think the problem is that a lot of these inaccurate early reports have also been taken as gospel by the conspiracy crowd (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2006/10/911_conspiracy_theory_1.html), so I'm not sure if there is one that you would both agree was clearly a misinterpretation. One of the weird things about Truthers is that they believe the mainstream media is an unimpeachable source, as long as it's straight after a disaster. Twenty-four, forty-eight hours afterwards, it becomes the source of all evil again.

The BBC/WTC7 claim is one of the most logically insane things in all of Trutherdom, though. So you're going to blow up a building and you want it to look like it collapsed naturally. The sensible thing to do is... what? Send out press releases to all the world's media saying the building has collapsed before you demolish it? Why would you do something that carried such a massive risk of exposure?

If I were a truther, I would have to agree with you. It would be idiotic to release to all the press about the demolition before it took place. However, I then would be forced to conclude that the BBC was actually in on it (I can't make mistakes after all) and since the BBC is subsidized by taxes of the British government, I thus must conclude that the British government is in on it as well. I would then be forced to say very mean things about the Queen because she's the head of the Brits.

Amiright?

[Perfume V]

Yeah, basically that. It's one of those interesting pressure points in Truther arguments where just applying a little pressure can cause people either to acknowledge that they don't know what they're talking about, or fly off into some magnificent flight of gibberish which involves implicating precisely everyone in the whole world.

[aggle-rithm]

I'm debating this other guy on another forum and he is making a big deal about BBC's early report on the collapse of building 7. I told him that there were other examples of things that were reported that turned out to be true while others weren't. I based it RKOwens debunking video but so far I haven't been able to find any other stories. If you can provide some with some links, thanks.

Shortly after the attacks, I printed out some of the news reports that were appearing on the web. It was interesting because some of them were EXTREMELY spotty, consisting of only ten or fifteen words.

The one I remember most is a report that the State Department had been blown up. Turned out not to have happened at all.

I really wish I could find those print-outs.

[grandmastershek]

I'm debating this other guy on another forum and he is making a big deal about BBC's early report on the collapse of building 7. I told him that there were other examples of things that were reported that turned out to be true while others weren't. I based it RKOwens debunking video but so far I haven't been able to find any other stories. If you can provide some with some links, thanks.

I could have sworn that on a documentary they said there was false reports Lyndon Johnson was shot the same day as JFK. I'm looking for something. Didn't they also say on 9/11 some guy road a piece debris during the collapse and survived?

[grandmastershek]

<i>After arriving at the hospital, the vice president climbed out of the car, rubbing his
stiff shoulder, giving rise to early erroneous press reports that Johnson had also been wounded in the attack. </i>

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/youngblood.txt

here's an article on the subject of false information during crisis, may help:

"News Media Perpetuate Few Rumors about 9/11 Crisis"

[TheBigKahuna]

Here's where CNN announces the the collapse of WTC 7 early. Guess everybody was in on it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1LetB0z8_o

[patchbunny]

Shortly after the attacks, I printed out some of the news reports that were appearing on the web. It was interesting because some of them were EXTREMELY spotty, consisting of only ten or fifteen words.

The one I remember most is a report that the State Department had been blown up. Turned out not to have happened at all.

I really wish I could find those print-outs.

I was at work that day, and the news came in odd fragments from various sources. I do recall a news story of car bombs at the capitol mall, and a coworker was reading from a Taiwanese news site that reported a hijacked plane had landed in the midwest.

[triforcharity]

I dunno, maybe the first reports that a Cessna hit the tower. That is a good one. Or the days after that said that there were bombs in the piles, and all the rescue workers were moved off the pile.

Or how about the eronious reports that the Delta flight had been hijacked.

Or how about the one that reported that...........

[Edx]

I'm debating this other guy on another forum and he is making a big deal about BBC's early report on the collapse of building 7. I told him that there were other examples of things that were reported that turned out to be true while others weren't. I based it RKOwens debunking video but so far I haven't been able to find any other stories. If you can provide some with some links, thanks.


Read the first part of this thread (http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=231&id=108266#108266).

From my post (http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=99999&func=view&catid=231&id=108266&limit=10&limitstart=30#113942) on page 5:

...they reported that United 93 landed at Cleveland when it didnt, this is why the original Loose Change decided they would postulate that it did and that the passengers were removed. There were also reports of a helicopter crashing into the pentagon, a second plane hitting the pentagon and reports of a car bomb exploading outside the State Department.
(see my post for links)

And a bomb in a school which I forgot about when I wrote this.

I actually got the truther to accept the BBC claim is a very weak argument in the end.

The "BBC reported it early claim" really is truly pathetic because its all based on the assumption that no one thought WTC7 would collapse. In reality it was fully expected to collapse and the FDNY were literally waiting around for it to happen.

[dropzone]

I really wish I could find those print-outs.Those of us who were monitoring the attacks on other boards agree. It was a confused time, especially since it included friends of ours, and we passed along whatever we heard, even if it turned out to not be accurate.

I mostly hate that day, but it was also the day the net matured.

[cludgie]

Seem to recall there were several unconfirmed reports of other suspected hijackings that turned out to be inaccurate.

On a similar note I remember on the morning of the July bombings in London that at least a couple of the bombs were double-reported where the bombs had gone off between stations. So one report quoted the station it'd just left and the second report quoted the station it was going towards.

[DishyFishy]

Anybody who's seen the James Bond documentaries knows that evil masterminds are contractually obliged to release details of their nefarious deeds before execution. It's Health And Safety gone mad...

(Hi Cludgie!)

[twinstead]

A local radio station reported as I was driving in my car that morning that a small plane like a Cessna had accidentally crashed into the Pentagon.

[aggle-rithm]

Anybody who's seen the James Bond documentaries knows that evil masterminds are contractually obliged to release details of their nefarious deeds before execution. It's Health And Safety gone mad...

(Hi Cludgie!)

"Since you are about to die, I will tell you...."

[9/11 Chewy Defense]

Que in James Bond theme:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ii1tc493bZM

[aggle-rithm]

Well, the phenomenon of information-strapped reporters jumping the gun on major stories is still alive and well. As is the shooter in the Fort Hood attacks who was reported dead yesterday.

[DavidJames]

Well, the phenomenon of information-strapped reporters jumping the gun on major stories is still alive and well. As is the shooter in the Fort Hood attacks who was reported dead yesterday.At various times there were 2 then 3 shooters (1 dead and 2 in custody).

[Zorglub]

There is this thread from Airliners.net where they´re writing about 9/11 as it unfolds.
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/568411/
They´re writing about the different reports the media gave that day. The reading is a bit scary a it starts out with what we all thought at first, it was merely an accident, but as things evolved the writing quickly gets more and more desperate.

Anyhow, by reading that thread and then adding the truthers view that everything reported from media that day is 100% true we can conclude that not only did the two Boeing 767 that was Flight 11 and Flight 175 struck the towers, furthermore did:
1 Cessna
1 Boeing 737
1 Boeing 727
1 Boeing 757
1 Airbus A320
hit them.

There was also a bomb at the pentagon and a helicopter crashing at the heli-pad outside. Bombs went off at the WTC (street level) and outside the Capitol Hill. And I know I´ve seen a clip where ABC (i think) reported about car bombs going off in other places in the U.S.

Still, the truthers clinge to their desperate belief that everything reported in the media that day was exact and precise. Funnily enough the only response I´ve gotten when I show them the thread above is that "it´s silly" and "of course we know that no car bombs went of at Capitol Hill". And with the next breath they mention how BBC reported about the collapse of WTC twenty minutes before it happened as proof of inside job.

[A W Smith]

Didn't they also say on 9/11 some guy road a piece debris during the collapse and survived?
Yes I distinctly remember that it was reported someone rode the observation deck down to the ground and survived. And Howard Stearn repeating it incredulously on his show.

[BigAl]

Yes I distinctly remember that it was reported someone rode the observation deck down to the ground and survived. And Howard Stearn repeating it incredulously on his show.

I think there is a grain of truth in this. A staircase containing a bunch of people stayed intact and rode down several floors before coming to a stop. It took some time to get to the people and get them out.

[A W Smith]

I think there is a grain of truth in this. A staircase containing a bunch of people stayed intact and rode down several floors before coming to a stop. It took some time to get to the people and get them out.

I don't recall reports of the staircase actually falling down. What happened was a portion of the staircase survived at the lowest levels and those inside reported seeing sunlight out the top. They were later rescued and led out through the canyons of debris. You can see this staircase in some GZ photos.

http://911stories.googlepages.com/NTstairwell.jpg/NTstairwell-full.jpg

[Lenbrazil]

The press gets lots of breaking news wrong they initially reported that James Brady was killed in the attempt on Reagan,Dewey won the 1948 election,the WV miners lived,the kook who was shot on a plane in Miami was shot on the jetway.

Even on 9/11 they said a plane (i.e. flight 93) was heading towards or had crashed near Camp David

[aggle-rithm]

I think there is a grain of truth in this. A staircase containing a bunch of people stayed intact and rode down several floors before coming to a stop. It took some time to get to the people and get them out.

The source of the rumor of the guy riding the rubble down to the ground was simply that one of the cops was incorrectly reported as being on the observation deck when he was actually on the ground. When he was found to be alive and unhurt, the "riding the rubble" legend was born.

[Scott Sommers]

As pointed out, this is one of the stupidest claims ever, easily handled by people who work in the media. However, I have Truth 'tards faced with the disbelief of media workers completely deny that their opinion matters.

Anyway, courtesy of Prison Planet, here's (http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1090) the report about the car explosion outside the State Department. And yes, this is seen as some sort of media plot.

There were many inaccuracte reports that day. All that I know about became 'proof' there is some sort of government control. There is the ridculous suggestion that none of the hijackers names appeared on the flight manifest. You can find a debunking of that here (http://www.911myths.com/index.php/No_hijackers_on_the_passenger_manifests).

Attacks and violence in general are extremely confusing events. It took decades to come to terms with the violence and confusion of WWII and Vietnam. The idea that people, even trained reporters, standing so close to life threatening events could remain clear and objective is stupid. Nor should they be expected to.

Errors happen. Young kids probably don't understand this. and since the majority of the people putting all this 'stuff' on the net are young, many still legally children, it is not surprising there is a lack of insight into the problem. Others seem to suffer from visible mental illnesses. I doubt these arguments about 'the BBC knew' go very far outside a young and wildly paranoid crowd. I wouldn't get too wrapped up in this.

[Edx]

I doubt these arguments about 'the BBC knew' go very far outside a young and wildly paranoid crowd. I wouldn't get too wrapped up in this.

I dont think so, unless you are describing all truthers. The people that think WTC7 was a controlled demolition and that no one would think it would collapse will always think something is fishy about the BBC reporting its collapse early. If its never happened before in history and it had only a few small fires, how did the BBC just happen to know in advance that it would? And thats the twisted logic they use, good almost in theory but based on lies. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvF_KOrRUyE)

[ImANiceGuy]

However, I have Truth 'tards faced with the disbelief of media workers completely deny that their opinion matters.

Could you please explain the meaning of this sentence? It is not immediately clear.

I am of legal age.

[Panoply_Prefect]

Swedish media, Ekot, reported a helicopter had crashed into the Pentagon and that the State Department was on fire. Also weren't there reports of a bomb in Stuyvesant Highschool?

[dudalb]

Almost all the news outlets were reporting a truck bomb had exploded at the State Department.

[Redtail]

I remember a reporter covering the Pentagon getting told that the Washington monument was hit as well.

[Rolfe]

When Jean Charles de Menezes was shot at Stockwell underground station, there were some absolutely jaw-droppingly inaccurate eyewitness reports broadcast on TV. The most lurid was an account of a man running away from armed police officers who were pursuing him, looking over his shoulder "like a hunted fox", tripping and falling on the platform, upon which the policemen fell on him and fired (some number of) shots.

This was shown to be completely, utterly and hopelesssly wrong. Jean Charles was sitting in his seat reading a newspaper when the policemen entered the train. When reporters later tried to get hold of the guy who had told that tale, he refused to comment.

In the hour or two following the Pan Am 103 crash, I remember hearing on TV a report that "the village of Tundergarth, in the hills above Lockerbie, is in flames". Actually, there is no such village. Tundergarth is the name of a farm where a lot of bodies landed, and of a road in Lockerbie which was close to where the plane's engines landed, but exactly what prompted that news report I have no idea.

Rolfe.

[Edx]

Also weren't there reports of a bomb in Stuyvesant Highschool?

Yes and the quote mining truthers actually use some footage of a firefighter talking about a bomb threat in the school to refer to the WTC.

[Edx]

The best way to make this thread serve its purpose is to keep giving examples of false reports like Rolfe has done, not just on 911 but other events as well.

[Scott Sommers]

Could you please explain the meaning of this sentence? It is not immediately clear.

I am of legal age.

I would be happy to clarify the error of my inacurrate writing. I have taken part in Internet-based discussions almong with my friend who works as a technical writer for a major Taiwan-based media firm and a Truth 'tard who claims he is not part of any major organization of Truth 'tards.

The Truth 'tard was going on and on about how the BBC knew. My friend explained in detail the way in which media broadcasters get information and how this made it seem like a simple mistake that goes on all the time in media. The Truth 'tard simply pulled another point from his big book of facts and told my friend that it was no longer important that he had previously raised this point.

I hope that is clear, but I will be glad to provide more detail if you still find this difficult to understand.

[Scott Sommers]

I dont think so, unless you are describing all truthers. The people that think WTC7 was a controlled demolition and that no one would think it would collapse will always think something is fishy about the BBC reporting its collapse early. If its never happened before in history and it had only a few small fires, how did the BBC just happen to know in advance that it would? And thats the twisted logic they use, good almost in theory but based on lies. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvF_KOrRUyE)

Actually, I'm describing most people in the world, and that would people not involved on a daily basis in these debates. There are points raised by Truthers atht might seem for a moment to be convincing to people uninvolved in these debates. This of course would be because they do not have counter explanations available. But the BBC story is one not one of these. The BBC story is an arcane example drawn from the world of people who think about this daily. Try explaining this to your friends uninvolved about this 'proof' of the BBC's involvement in a sinister world-wide plot to kill thousands on the orders of Dick Cheney. I think most people are so aware that news sources are regularly mistaken that there would be no problem handling this one.

In fact, it's points like this that discredit Truthers among uninvolved people - this insistance on coming across like clever people who know every detail about what they're talking about.

[tsig]

I'm debating this other guy on another forum and he is making a big deal about BBC's early report on the collapse of building 7. I told him that there were other examples of things that were reported that turned out to be true while others weren't. I based it RKOwens debunking video but so far I haven't been able to find any other stories. If you can provide some with some links, thanks.

Dewy defeats Truman.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dewey_Defeats_Truman

[willhaven]

I'm debating this other guy on another forum and he is making a big deal about BBC's early report on the collapse of building 7. I told him that there were other examples of things that were reported that turned out to be true while others weren't. I based it RKOwens debunking video but so far I haven't been able to find any other stories. If you can provide some with some links, thanks.

MSNBC was pretty damn clear. BBC may have misreported it, but it was known by many that it was likely to fall.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-WZpXiEKAo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KQA1KOKrPc

[SezMe]

Hasan is dead.

[Edx]

Actually, I'm describing most people in the world, and that would people not involved on a daily basis in these debates. There are points raised by Truthers atht might seem for a moment to be convincing to people uninvolved in these debates. This of course would be because they do not have counter explanations available.

In this case its because they do not know the points this claim is based on are in fact lies. Conseqently they take this claim seriously, after all if the claims its based on werent lies then it would be pretty strange.


But the BBC story is one not one of these. The BBC story is an arcane example drawn from the world of people who think about this daily.

I was a truther for a good while, so I do know what I believed and I know what other people I have talked to believe. Even when I stopped being a truther I still thought it was a confusing coincidence that the BBC not only reported it early so close to the actual collapse but happened to be in the background at the time.

I also found it weird that firefighters seemd to know it might collapse yet "only had small fires" and "no other steel building had ever collapsed due to fire" (I was only thinking of the firefighter video's truthers choose to show you and Alex Jones' constant claims that there was countdowns and reports of bombs at WTC7 just got stuck in my head + Barry Jennings etc I assumed it had more truth than the vacuous lies it all was). This was also before I really understood WTC7 and the events surrounding it, I already realised it couldnt have been a demolition due to the fact that I already figured it was ridiculous to suggest they would demolish towers 1+2 then clearly WTC7 must not be a demolition either.

Simply put if you believe the point that no steel frame building has ever collapsed due to fire and WTC7 had only small fires, then the idea that people somehow knew it was going to collapse is suspicious. And if you add to that all the other truther mumbo jumbo like "countdowns" and nano thermite, squibs, Barry Jennings, molten steel, and so on and so on, then you are going to find the BBC story suspicious. I know this because that is what people say that believe those lies. Basically the BBC claim is a lie based on other lies, you have to believe the lies its based on to take it seriously and loads of people dont question truthers confidence in stating "facts". Its hard to believe that someone could be that wrong about everything 100% of the time.


I think most people are so aware that news sources are regularly mistaken that there would be no problem handling this one.

Of all the things they could misreport, they choose to report that 7 collapses and not long before it does? So many coincidences on 911! Why would anyone think 7 would collapse? It was hardly damaged and had only small fires! No other steel building has collapsed from fire and they have been infernos that burned for hours and hours! Did I mention Silverstein also said pull it? I guess thats just a coinsidence as well, right? ;) (just doing a truther impression for ya)

In fact, it's points like this that discredit Truthers among uninvolved people - this insistance on coming across like clever people who know every detail about what they're talking about.

I think of it like this if truthers have 1 single good point isnt it interesting that they are always surrounded by cartloads of the biggest horse ****? I dont understand why anyone takes them seriously after its so easy to discredit them as lying incompetent frauds.

[Scott Sommers]

Ed,
I don't know how old you are. I'm 47. I think you'll find that if you talk with lots of people who aren't at all involved in these issues that the points you raise simply don't matter. I can understand that if someone believes that no steel-frame structure has ever fallen down before and that there were only small fires in WTC 7 and that the BBC reported WTC 7 falling down before it actually did that this might seem very odd.

But actually, most people not involved in these issues won't worry about this. If you tell them one of these points, they will just think you're mistaken about something. And you know what? They'd be right. Common sense would truimph in this case.

This is why the Truth movement has had no success at all mobolizing people. There are no massive protests about the demolition of the WTC, but there are massive protests about ending the war in Iraq. There are not massive protests about the firing of Van Jones because he once signed a 911 Truth petition. There is very little public concern about these issues and what concern there is can not be used to mobolize anyone.

I have personally investigated the composition of Truth groups. And despite rumours otherwise, it's young kids. There's a lot of high school students involved in these formal groups. There might be others who accept these ideas, but are not members of such groups. Despite their claims about believing the government murders people, their lives are pretty much like everyone elses. They live in a house and have a job and pay taxes and generally obey the law. They don't live a very convincing story about a murderous all-powerful goverment.

Being an ex-Truther, I don't know how this makes you feel. I don't mean to be deliberately offensive. I hope I'm not. And as I've said, I never heard about any of this until just this spring and like most people, it immediately struck me as a pile of horse crap. But then I'm an old man.