Yes, but - did they change their minds?

[Monster Machine]

From Fox News:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,572917,00.html?test=latestnews (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,572917,00.html?test=latestnews)

I would be curious to know if his parents have abandoned this notion that prayer and not medical intervention would save their son?

How do certain groups, when mandated by the court to seek medical treatment, deal with their religion after medicine saves them?

Monster

[JenseitsDavon]

It wasn't medicine, it was God, you big silly. I mean, duh. He was just working THROUGH those poor uninformed doctors.

[Finster]

It wasn't medicine, it was God, you big silly. I mean, duh. He was just working THROUGH those poor uninformed doctors.

Outrageous - god saved him despite those evil interfering doctors.

[Monster Machine]

It wasn't medicine, it was God, you big silly. I mean, duh. He was just working THROUGH those poor uninformed doctors.

Yes, but - God said NO!

And they did it.

So do you think god allowed the boy to live a little longer so he could fry him later?

Monster

[jadey]

How do certain groups, when mandated by the court to seek medical treatment, deal with their religion after medicine saves them?


I'm sure his miraculous recovery will provide proof of the power of prayer ... how convenient.

[Fnord]

Let me get this straight ... God allegedly said "NO" to medical intervention ... the courts ordered the intervention ... the child received the intervention ... the child is now well.

Does this mean that the judge, the child, the child's parents, and the medical professionals who went against God's alleged will are going to all burn in Hell, even though the child is now likely to live a full and fruitfull life?

Should the child have been allowed to die in order to save all those other poor souls who defied God's alleged will?

:nope:

... and people wonder why I'm so down on religion.

[Whiplash]

There was a Babylon 5 episode that got into this kind of subject matter rather well.

Dr. Franklin had an alien patient who had some kind of air bladder system that was infected and closing off. He was rapidly loosing the ability to breathe. He was a young child, and his parents were devoutly faithful to their own version of God. They didn't believe that their people should be operated on, for fear of their soul escaping or something nonsensical. Surgery was something only for animals, not for God's chosen people of the "Egg".

In the end, Dr. Franklin can't let well enough alone and does the surgery without the consent of the parents. And when they find out, they are mortified, and see their child as now being a soulless hellspawn of some kind.

In the end, it appears that they have forgiven Dr. Franklin and moved on, but he figures out (too late) that they took the child and then killed him in their ritual manner. Arguing he had already died when the knife cut him open. He just was a soulless body after that point. It was a mercy to kill him in their mind.

I thought it was a good episode, but always felt that the ending was a bit hyperbolic and clearly designed to provoke a reaction regarding these kinds of stories in our own world.

But these days I'm not so sure it's such an outrageous exaggeration. I hate the thought of one of these people ending up doing something similar to their own children, if care was ever forced upon them, against their religious wishes. I would hope they would be able to learn from it and grow, and not resort to such madness. But I admit, in todays world.. I dunno anymore.

[Hux]

Its a shame there is not a chemotherapy for the cancer that is religion.

[quarky]

There is.

But its illegal.

[Fnord]

Its a shame there is not a chemotherapy for the cancer that is religion.
It's called "Zyklon B."

[jadey]

Its a shame there is not a chemotherapy for the cancer that is religion.

Its called "rational thinking". Unfortunately it must be administered in church, but that is strictly forbidden.

Genesis 1:0:1 ... must ... not ... eat ... from ... tree ... of ... knowledge ... ;)

[Hux]

It's called "Zyklon B."

Chemotherapy is not supposed to damage the host, healthy cells. Bit of a sledgehammer to crack an egg there, I feel.

[Beerina]

It wasn't medicine, it was God, you big silly. I mean, duh. He was just working THROUGH those poor uninformed doctors.

Since Jesus said, "Thou shalt not put thy god to the test", no Christian should ever turn down medical help.

It's saying to God, "We could help the child through mechanical means within our capability, but we would prefer to force you to do it via miracle."

There is no other way to interpret it. God could, of course, at any time kick in a miracle, before, during, or after medical treatment, or in lieu of it, of course. But I don't think it's correct theology to presume that this help will come independently of secular attempts at healing, much less come with reduced probability because of the medical treatment.



One should analyze it from this viewpoint: Which produces more people saved?

A. Secular medical treatment + honest prayers.
B. No secular treatment + honest prayers.


From that equation, God and His Plans are completely irrelevant. Even tossing into the equation, as you must, that God must know that you are using this yardstick, doesn't alter it.

As an aside, I note this would be a very much like a knock-on-wood attempt to alter karmic fate. Put your mind into a state where the good thing coming about would be a surprise, rather than an expectation, or even a hope. After all, what's going through God's mind at this point, should a pray-er realize this equation above? "Hmmm, since he knows this, I must therefore produce a different likelihood of miracle to alter the correct logical analysis according to that equation. But wait! This guy realizes this equation could thus drive Me to behave that way, and he's trying to blank his mind back to the state where his realization of it is just a distant, dim thought, and that a miracle would be a wonderful surprise to him. So I will proceed to produce the miracle as planned, had he not thought of that equation-of-evaluation above."

WTF ever, Yahweh.



BTW, I note a letter-to-the-Editor in one of the Skeptic mags several years back, complaining about an "efficacy of prayer" experiment. The researchers had decided there was no need to inform those being prayed over, unlike normal treatments, which would be unethical to do without informing them (even, if nothing else, just that "something" would be done to you, is that ok?)

They pointed out that, given the history of God in the bible, a result of harm from a miracle of God because of the prayers was a distinct possibility :) I.e.

C. (anything) + prayers = worse off than without prayers

[Soapy Sam]

It's called "Zyklon B."

Just the teensiest touch of poor taste there, perhaps?

[Jontg]

In the proper dose, it's a delousing agent.