Carl Sagan said he didn't believe in UFOS

[Cainkane1]

Carl Sagan in one of his books said that evidence for a otherworldly artifact would be the material from which it was made. For instance he said that certain mixtures of metals such as tin and lead which cannot be made on earth but can be made in the weightlessness of space would be evidence.

Is he wrong? Have artifacts like this been found? Something made out of something that humans could not have duplicated some centuries ago?

[quixotecoyote]

Just on comparative likelihoods, would it be evidence of aliens or a secret space program of some kind?

[sonofgloin]

Carl Sagan in one of his books said that evidence for a otherworldly artifact would be the material from which it was made. For instance he said that certain mixtures of metals such as tin and lead which cannot be made on earth but can be made in the weightlessness of space would be evidence.

Are you positive Sagan said that tin and lead can not be fused outside a vacuum?

[Andrew Wiggin]

Are you positive Sagan said that tin and lead can not be fused outside a vacuum?

I've got a block of babbit metal out in my workshop that says otherwise.

A

[JoeTheJuggler]

Carl Sagan in one of his books said that evidence for a otherworldly artifact would be the material from which it was made. For instance he said that certain mixtures of metals such as tin and lead which cannot be made on earth but can be made in the weightlessness of space would be evidence.
I don't think Sagan would have said that a tin/lead alloy cannot be made on Earth. That's what low-temp solder is made of.

Have artifacts like this been found? Something made out of something that humans could not have duplicated some centuries ago?

No. No such artifact is known.

Even if an artifact made of material that was heretofore unknown were found, jumping to the conclusion that space aliens are visiting us would still be unreasonable.

[Hux]

I don't think sagan said any such thing. I think he took the view that life was more than likely out there but there's just no evidence that it has visited here either now or in the past.

[RecoveringYuppy]

Have artifacts like this been found?

All those Asian fermented fish sauces have to be the remants of an alien syn-fuel program.

[Cainkane1]

Are you positive Sagan said that tin and lead can not be fused outside a vacuum?
No but he did say something very much like that. The vacuum has nothing to do with it. Its the weighlessness of space that would allow normally incompatiable metals to melt together. One of the metals he mentioned was lead which will not mix with some other metals because of gravity. I actually believe he did say tin and lead.

[Vortigern99]

This thread title is erroneous baloney. Sagan said he didn't believe there were unidentified flying objects? Sheer hogwashery. Moreover, the OP asks about unearthly metals and appears to have nothing to do with UFOs. I call foul.

[a3sigma]

I recall the following exchange in an interview:

Question: Do you believe in UFO's?

Sagan: Sure. UFO stands for Unidentified Flying Object. What that means is that somebody saw something and didn't know what it was. I certainly do believe that people sometimes see things and don't know what they are.

I've been quoting this response for many years -- every time someone asks me the question.

David Clark in Southern Maryland, USA
retired NASA techie

[RecoveringYuppy]

I actually believe he did say tin and lead.
Well, googling Carl Sagan, tin and lead right now leads back to this thread as the top hit, so I think you're the first to suggest this. Tin and lead are a eutectic mixture that's been used for a very long time.

[JoeTheJuggler]

As for the strict reading of UFO as meaning "unidentified flying object" when it's clear from the context that what is meant is "UFOs are alien spacecraft visiting the Earth": if we want to be strict about it, most "UFOs" are not "flying" (the Moon and Venus), and some are not even "objects" (reflections, optical illusions).

At any rate, I think we just had a similar discussion about exotic artifacts or novel materials as "evidence" of space aliens on Earth. I think it was a thread on alien implants in abductees. As I said above, even if we did find something that was new to us, considering it proof or evidence of contact with aliens would be unreasonable. There are far too many mundane explanations.

Oh yeah--I believe I mentioned on that thread that that unknown shard of metal was likely to be the result of being cut by Occam's Razor.

[Patricio Elicer]

No but he did say something very much like that. The vacuum has nothing to do with it. Its the weighlessness of space that would allow normally incompatiable metals to melt together. One of the metals he mentioned was lead which will not mix with some other metals because of gravity. I actually believe he did say tin and lead.


Yes, Sagan actually wrote something about alumninium and lead alloys not being able to produce under earthly gravity conditions.

In his 1978 (?) book, "Broca's Brain", he wrote, in reference to evidence of alien vititation to Earth:

"There are common elements on Earth that are immiscible; for example, alumninium and lead. If you melt them together, the lead, being considerably heavier, sinks to the bottom. The alumninium floats to the top. However in the zero g conditions of spaceflights there is no gravity in the melt to pull the heavier lead down, and exotic alloys such as Al/Pb can be produced. One of the objectives of NASA's early shuttle missions will be to test out such alloying techniques.

Any message written on aluminium/lead alloy and retrieved from an ancient civilization would certainly commend itself to our attention today"


Chapter 6, "White Dwarfs and Little Green Men", page 80, paperback pocket edition.

[JoeTheJuggler]

Yes, Sagan actually wrote something about alumninium and lead alloys not being able to produce under earthly gravity conditions.
Yeah, Cainekane made the same mistake on the other thread I mentioned.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=155846

He was corrected there too. What gives, Cainekane?

"Any message written on aluminium/lead alloy and retrieved from an ancient civilization would certainly commend itself to our attention today"

And of course Sagan's words were well measured. Such an artifact would "commend itself to our attention" is not the same as saying it would be proof of alien visitors.

We covered a lot of these same ideas on the implant thread.

[John Jones]

Are you positive Sagan said that tin and lead can not be fused outside a vacuum?

Aluminum and lead is what I recall.

[Patricio Elicer]

I recall the following exchange in an interview:

Question: Do you believe in UFO's?

Sagan: Sure. UFO stands for Unidentified Flying Object. What that means is that somebody saw something and didn't know what it was. I certainly do believe that people sometimes see things and don't know what they are.

I've been quoting this response for many years -- every time someone asks me the question.

David Clark in Southern Maryland, USA
retired NASA techie


And not only that. Sagan argued his skeptical view on UFOs as early as in the late 60's / early 70's, in his books "UFOs: A Scientific Debate" (he was editor and contributed one chaper) and "The Cosmic Connection".

He touched the subject later in his book "Broca's Brain" of the late 70s, and finally wrote extensively about it in his 1994 book "The Demon Haunted Word".

ETA: And certainly in Cosmos too. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9VLAWxDut0)

[Bikewer]

I forget which particular book it was in, but Carl was talking about being a member of a couple of blue-ribbon panels examining the "very best" UFO cases. He said flatly that there "was not a shred" of evidence.

Another great point he made was in The Demon-Haunted World. He points out that if there were anything at all to the raft of UFO sightings occurring during the height of the Cold War, the military would have been clamoring for vast funds to counter this potential threat. Space defenses, surveillance, etc.
But no. Just the same investment in technologies to counter the Soviets.

[Andrew Wiggin]

I can think of numerous ways an alloy of lead and aluminum could be made, without the need for space flight. Alloys of lead with lighter metals have been around as bearing metals for a long time. Lead/copper babbit, for example. It simply has to be well stirred, and cooled quickly. Many of the modern metallic glass alloys are made this way too. Other bearing metals, like indium/tin, are made by plating. If you want a homogenous alloy, manufacture a block by plating alternate layers, then heat to just below the melting point to let the layers diffuse together. Similarly, a block can be pressed from metal powders and heated to diffusion weld the constituents together. I'm not a big fan of the idea that something could be, simply by its composition, proved to be otherworldy. More likely, it's a product of some reasearch lab, or simply something that exists in large quantities but that most folks don't get much exposure to. I've posted lists of things like this in other threads.

A

[Cainkane1]

I stand corrected. However I still believe that evidence for otherworldly visitors would be in the form of materials difficult or impossible to make on earth made in quantity. Also when someone talks about alien communities such as the group of buildings in Turkey that were alledged to be abondoned alien houses I'd look for evidence of artificial lighting and such.

[EHocking]

I stand corrected. However I still believe that evidence for otherworldly visitors would be in the form of materials difficult or impossible to make on earth made in quantity. Also when someone talks about alien communities such as the group of buildings in Turkey that were alledged to be abondoned alien houses I'd look for evidence of artificial lighting and such.I hesitate to ask, but do you have a link to this? My GoogleFu fails me today.

ETA: Oh, right, Cappadocia (http://www.cappadociaturkey.net/)... shades of Erik von Daniken...

[sonofgloin]

I hesitate to ask, but do you have a link to this? My GoogleFu fails me today.

ETA: Oh, right, Cappadocia (http://www.cappadociaturkey.net/)... shades of Erik von Daniken...

I recall the von Daniken doco, from memory the only things that I thought had some potential as to ET was the painting of a craft in a Croatian (I think) church and the metal model of a space craft from I don't remember exactly where, perhaps South America.

[JoeTheJuggler]

However I still believe that evidence for otherworldly visitors would be in the form of materials difficult or impossible to make on earth made in quantity.
Again, I think if we did have a sample of a hitherto unknown material, it would be completely unreasonable to leap to the conclusion that it is "evidence for otherworldly visitors".

There are too many much more parsimonious explanations for something like that. It's much more likely to be a human artifact that isn't generally known of (like a corporate lab working on the next "better mousetrap").

ETA: And we really did already cover all this (AND make the lead/tin to lead/aluminum correction) on that other thread.