NPR covers a town of spiritualists

[Flaherty]

On the 12/29/03 Diana Rhem show:

For more than 100 years, Lily Dale, New York, has been the annual meeting place for thousands of Spiritualists to gather and talk with the dead. Christine Wicker's new book tells the true story of the world's oldest and largest community of Spiritualists.

http://www.wamu.org/dr/

It's just starting on my local NPR station, so I am bracing for festival of woo.

The show will be archived quickly, so follow the link and listen at your pleasure.

[Suggestologist]

Originally posted by Flaherty
On the 12/29/03 Diana Rhem show:



It's just starting on my local NPR station, so I am bracing for festival of woo.

The show will be archived quickly, so follow the link and listen at your pleasure.

I was listening. A very interesting show. Someone called in with reference to Randi and the Million$ challenge. Was it you?

[Clancie]

Haven't listened to the program yet, but I've read the book. It's quite interesting (by a reporter for the Dallas Morning News, not herself "a believer", despite what you may think from the title)....

Lily Dale: the true story of the town that talks to the dead by Christine Wicker.

[CFLarsen]

"Every summer twenty thousand guests come to consult the town's mediums, who can hangout a shingle only after passing a test that confirms their connection to the spirit world."
From book description.

I would like to see that test.

[rdaneel]

Originally posted by CFLarsen


I would like to see that test.
http://www.travelin-tigers.com/images/usd100.jpg

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by rdaneel

http://www.travelin-tigers.com/images/usd100.jpg

:D

I asked them, let's see what they say....

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by CFLarsen


:D

I asked them, let's see what they say.... This post has been reported. I'm clarifying with the reporter as to the problem.

Edited to add:
This post and rdaneel's before it was reported because a poster has pointed out that it is illegal to scan and post U.S. currency. Whether that is true or not, the point is moot as the $100 bill in question is an obvious fake (note the serial number).

Edited to further add:
I must have been mistaken. My bad. I'm new.

[Pyrrho]

Searches of U.S. government sites and a reading of Title 18 of the U.S. code shows no specific law against scanning of currency for a digital picture.

http://www.moneyfactory.com/document.cfm/18/103

http://www.secretservice.gov/money_law.shtml

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/18/parts/i/chapters/25/toc.html

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/coin-collecting/paper-money-faq/section-43.html

The Bureau of Engraving and Printing has digital pictures of currency on its web site, however, they are small pictures.

http://www.moneyfactory.com/section.cfm/4

Printing a paper copy of the digital image would definitely be a violation of U.S law.

Because this isn't a clear-cut situation, I'm editing the posts to show only a link. Please don't post any more pictures of legal tender currency, ok?

Changed my mind. Pictures are back. If the Secret Service has a problem with it, send 'em to me.

[SteveGrenard]

Actually legal U.S. currency series with serial#s of all zeros exist and are sold as collectors items, as do bills w/serial numbers preceded by zeros and 01, 02, 03, 04 etc. The copy scanned and published above and now deleted, therefore, was not an altered forgery but a real bill.


According to the U.S. Secret Service and Bureau of Engraving such repros must be either 3/4s the size of the real money or 1.5 times the size of real money or only be a section of a real bill which they demonstrate at:

http://www.secretservice.gov/money_illustrations.shtml

The linked image appears to be 1.5X the size of a real bill so confirms to that regulation.

$20 Repros shown on the above Secret Service website are printed also with the word "Specimen" in red. I recall also seeing pix of bills with the word "Counterfeit" stamped across the face as well which the Treasury Dept. uses to show merchants, bank tellers and the public what a counterfeit might look like.

[Flaherty]

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
Actually legal U.S. currency series with serial#s of all zeros exist and are sold as collectors items...

I nominate this thread for the 2003 Most Severe Highjacking of a Thread Award. Who could have predicted that an original post about a spiritualist radio program could, in less than 10 replies, evolve into a discussion about the legalities of posting images of US currency?

[CFLarsen]

http://www.skepticreport.com/images/jrefmillion.jpg

Carry on.

[Upchurch]

Going for the Beating A Dead Horse award...
Originally posted by SteveGrenard
Actually legal U.S. currency series with serial#s of all zeros exist and are sold as collectors items, as do bills w/serial numbers preceded by zeros and 01, 02, 03, 04 etc. The copy scanned and published above and now deleted, therefore, was not an altered forgery but a real bill. The link you gave does not confrim or deny this. However, this collector's site (http://www.dawnscurrency.com/anatomy/serial.html) says the following:In small size currency, prior to the Series 1996 $20, $50 and $100 notes, a note's serial number uniquely identifies that note within the note's type, denomination and series. The serial number on small size currency was standardized to eight digits, with a single letter prefix and single letter suffix. All letters but "O" are used in the prefix and suffix letters - more or less.

<center>A12345678B</center>

The number itself starts with 00000001, and runs through 99999999. What happens next depends on the type of note it is, although in recent decades, there is only one type of note in circulation.According to the above source, there is no should be no bill whose seial number is G00000000A. I'll grant you, it isn't the most authoritative source in the world, but it's the only one I could find on the subject. Do you have a source of information that says otherwise?

[xouper]

CFLarsen:
http://www.skepticreport.com/images/jrefmillion.jpg
Carry on.See also http://www.milliondollarbill.com/mdbpaper.html

Perhaps Randi can commision that company to print some of these with his face on it and sell them as fundraisers for the JREF.

[SteveGrenard]

Actually UpChurch the all Zeros (the numerical part) exists. I grant you they are not supposed to be released but sometimes they are. The use of such a bill in a repro does not render it bogus as suggested. You will have to visit the records of paper money and numismatic auctions to confirm this. The low number bills such as all zeros +1, 2, etc also are scoffed up by collectors.

When I have more time later tonight I will find some references if they are anywhere on the web. I do not recall what Series years these were when I last saw them (I didn't collect them myself) so the bit about pre-1996 and, ergo, post-1996, enters into this as well.

You might also notice that the 20 dollar bill on the website from the Secret Service I gave altered the serial number by placing two letter designations before the number (AB) instead of one.

[Pyrrho]

Y'know, the simple solution to all of this is probably to leave the pictures on display, and let the Secret Service complain, assuming they would even give a damn.

What was this thread about, anyway? :rolleyes:

[SteveGrenard]

Originally posted by Pyrrho
Y'know, the simple solution to all of this is probably to leave the pictures on display, and let the Secret Service complain, assuming they would even give a damn.

What was this thread about, anyway? :rolleyes:


If they are 3/4s or 1.5 x the size of real money it is perfectly legal.

This thread was about money right?

[Pyrrho]

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
If they are 3/4s or 1.5 x the size of real money it is perfectly legal.

This thread was about money right?
Most of it, anyway. I like money so much that I'm gonna countermand myself.

Meanwhile, how did that radio broadcast turn out?

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by xouper
See also http://www.milliondollarbill.com/mdbpaper.html

Aw, shucks. That's much better than my design!

Originally posted by xouper
Perhaps Randi can commision that company to print some of these with his face on it and sell them as fundraisers for the JREF.

I'd buy a bundle. 1 buck each? No problem! It would need to state, on the back, the terms of the challenge, or something promotional. Good idea!

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
Actually UpChurch the all Zeros (the numerical part) exists. I grant you they are not supposed to be released but sometimes they are. The use of such a bill in a repro does not render it bogus as suggested. You will have to visit the records of paper money and numismatic auctions to confirm this. The low number bills such as all zeros +1, 2, etc also are scoffed up by collectors.

When I have more time later tonight I will find some references if they are anywhere on the web. I do not recall what Series years these were when I last saw them (I didn't collect them myself) so the bit about pre-1996 and, ergo, post-1996, enters into this as well.

You might also notice that the 20 dollar bill on the website from the Secret Service I gave altered the serial number by placing two letter designations before the number (AB) instead of one.

Only an authoritative source will do, Steve. Don't make semi-derriere claims. You could get away with that on your SS-board, but not here.

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
If they are 3/4s or 1.5 x the size of real money it is perfectly legal.

Sources for this claim?

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
This thread was about money right?

No, dimbo. It was about a radio show.

[Pyrrho]

Sigh...even levity takes a nasty turn around here.

[SteveGrenard]

Yup.

And BTW Pyrrho the images from that link which you put back (it is some family website) are neither less than 3/4s or more than 1.5 X the size required by law. They are near 1X the size of regular U.S. currency. You can find this information on the Secret Service website I referenced above. You need it again? I re-post it:


http://www.secretservice.gov/money_illustrations.shtml

-------------------------------------------------

# the illustration is of a size less than three-fourths or more than one and one-half, in linear dimension, of each part of the item illustrated; source: US Secret Service

# the illustration is one-sided;

Source: US Secret Service

# all negatives, plates, positives, digitized storage medium, graphic files, magnetic medium, optical storage devices, and any other thing used in the making of the illustration that contain an image of the illustration or any part thereof are destroyed and/or deleted or erased after their final use.
Source: US Secret Service
-----------------------------------------------

All three of the above conditions must be met. The size in the original posts therefore do not meet the requirement; the one-sided requirement is met. I am not sure if the last requirement is met; is this as a digitized storage medium? I am confused by this one.

[Pyrrho]

Well, Steve, on retrospect (hmm. I've already done one retrospect, what's it called when you do more than one?) I think I'm not going to take it too seriously. I'm sure if the Secret Service doesn't like it, and takes the time to contact the JREF about it, we'll just remove the images.

The regs you've cited have specifically to do with printed reproduction. There isn't a specific rule prohibiting digital display of currency. If they were high-resolution scans, I think there'd be a problem.

[Suggestologist]

Originally posted by Pyrrho
Meanwhile, how did that radio broadcast turn out?

The host, Diane Rehm, seems to think she may have had a pscyhic experience during her Silva Mind control trainings.

[SteveGrenard]

Pyrrho: The regs you've cited have specifically to do with printed reproduction. There isn't a specific rule prohibiting digital display of currency. If they were high-resolution scans, I think there'd be a problem


In that case lets hope nobody prints this webpage.

What radio show?

[Pyrrho]

Originally posted by Suggestologist
The host, Diane Rehm, seems to think she may have had a pscyhic experience during her Silva Mind control trainings.
Ah. My brother-in-law was into Silva for a while, but he left that in favor of "A Course In Miracles". At some point he decided he was "an initiate" of some kind and now disdains anything but his own esoteric philosophies.

[phildonnia]

Originally posted by SteveGrenard
This thread was about money right?

It was about the exact value of a 0.999999... dollar bill.

Two outstanding questions:

Was Flaherty the one who called in and mentioned the Million Dollar challenge?

What was the test that one was required to pass prior to confirm their connection to the spirit world?

[Suggestologist]

Originally posted by Pyrrho

Ah. My brother-in-law was into Silva for a while, but he left that in favor of "A Course In Miracles". At some point he decided he was "an initiate" of some kind and now disdains anything but his own esoteric philosophies.

Well, you know, minimal-cue reading can easily be misunderstood as ESP. If you imagine an aura (I'm not saying that they exist, only that they can be and are imagined by people), you can tune it so that the colors provide information that is, in a sense, obvious; but that most people don't pay attention to. Culturally, many people ignore the emotions of others as long as the others' words say something different, for example. And imagining an aura can give someone the er.. "personal power" to challenge the words which don't match the emotion that the other person is trying to mask. For example.

Plus, vague (but specific sounding) language, leads the listener to come up with their own (relevant) meanings; and makes it sound like you know intimate details (that they just pulled out of their own memories) about them. Cold reading.

I got the impression that alot of this sort of stuff was going on for both the host and the guest book-author/reporter.

[Pyrrho]

Originally posted by Suggestologist
Well, you know, minimal-cue reading can easily be misunderstood as ESP. If you imagine an aura (I'm not saying that they exist, only that they can be and are imagined by people), you can tune it so that the colors provide information that is, in a sense, obvious; but that most people don't pay attention to. Culturally, many people ignore the emotions of others as long as the others' words say something different, for example. And imagining an aura can give someone the er.. "personal power" to challenge the words which don't match the emotion that the other person is trying to mask. For example.

Plus, vague (but specific sounding) language, leads the listener to come up with their own (relevant) meanings; and makes it sound like you know intimate details (that they just pulled out of their own memories) about them. Cold reading.

I got the impression that alot of this sort of stuff was going on for both the host and the guest book-author/reporter.
Yes...a great deal of it seems to involve the repeating of what amount to vague platitudes. Also, there is a lot that has to do with the mindset of the person approaching the subject matter. Some people, ready to believe, will find meaning in material that is actually incomprehensible. "If ye seek, ye shall find," I guess. A lot of it does have to do with emotion. Some of it has to do with the lure of learning special powers, not to say that that is everyone's goal, but the notion of it is appealing.

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by Pyrrho
Sigh...even levity takes a nasty turn around here.

How DARE you accuse that comment of non-levity-ness!!!

I find your comments misleading, malicious, prejudicial, insulting, doubly-wacko, woo-woo, out there, non- :) , and unscientific * infinity + 1.

This thread demands an apology ASAP! Your thread has been reported to yourself and you will take appropriate actions.

;) ;) ;)

Seriously though, in my spare time I should really get my rusty stat. skills crackin' on a statistical model to predict when certain posters will respond to threads.

The predictor variables could be:
-who started the thread
-the general topic of the thread
-who posts in the thread
-time of day
-...and more!

I bet it could accurately predict all sorts of things. For some people I'd only have to put in a 'SteveGrenard' indicator variable to know they'd post in the thread. :D

(I'm adding extra smileys for those who tend to interpret everything seriously)
:) :) :) :) :)

[Suggestologist]

Originally posted by Pyrrho

Yes...a great deal of it seems to involve the repeating of what amount to vague platitudes. Also, there is a lot that has to do with the mindset of the person approaching the subject matter.


Well, the author seems to have come into it with an agnostic, but leaning skeptical, mindset. She did, however, engage in the actual trainings or something. And at some point she imagined things, told the person what she imagined, and the person had a positive reaction to the description. Now, I have no problem believing that she did imagine something; most people do think in pictures part of the time; and the interaction between herself and the person she was "reading(?)" likely helped construct the picture. When she got positive feedback, after describing what she pictured; well hey, positive feedback after activity -- that's learning, that's value, "let's do that again" says your brain.

My impression was that at this point, she didn't really believe it, but was moving in the direction of believing. And I have no trouble believing this sequence of events. Even during the interview, she wasn't clearly for or against; at least that was my impression. She quoted William James saying something like: "The importance of religious belief isn't whether or not it is true, but what effect it has on people." So, it would seem that she's still somewhat agnostic, but perhaps not leaning toward skepticism as much?

In a sense, William James er.. paraphrased above, describes my philosophy as well. Do what's useful, who cares if it's ultimately correct as long as it gets me toward my goals faster. I can't wait for a perfect explanation of everything, I have to live my life as best I can with what I know now.


Some people, ready to believe, will find meaning in material that is actually incomprehensible. "If ye seek, ye shall find," I guess. A lot of it does have to do with emotion. Some of it has to do with the lure of learning special powers, not to say that that is everyone's goal, but the notion of it is appealing.

Sure. But then people can look at learning nuclear physics, or becoming an astronaut, or even just getting a Ph.D. in the same way, can't they? Does a Ph.D. give one special powers? Sort of.

Btw, the certification/license process as described by the author requires that you see two "beings" or "entities" that two other spiritists (or whatever) recognize as entities they already know. Not a scientific certification, but it makes sense for the context.

[Pyrrho]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi


How DARE you accuse that comment of non-levity-ness!!!

I find your comments misleading, malicious, prejudicial, insulting, doubly-wacko, woo-woo, out there, non- :) , and unscientific * infinity + 1.

Could you be more specific?

This thread demands an apology ASAP! Your thread has been reported to yourself and you will take appropriate actions.

;) ;) ;)

You shouldn't have done that. I'd have thought anyone with a Yin-Yan avatar would realize what sort of subquantum emformic vortex could be produced by such an action. I mean, I might actually crack a smile.

Seriously though, in my spare time I should really get my rusty stat. skills crackin' on a statistical model to predict when certain posters will respond to threads.

The predictor variables could be:
-who started the thread
-the general topic of the thread
-who posts in the thread
-time of day
-...and more!

I bet it could accurately predict all sorts of things. For some people I'd only have to put in a 'SteveGrenard' indicator variable to know they'd post in the thread. :D

(I'm adding extra smileys for those who tend to interpret everything seriously)
:) :) :) :) :)
Woo woo code is strictly forbidden.

[Pyrrho]

Originally posted by Suggestologist
Well, the author seems to have come into it with an agnostic, but leaning skeptical, mindset. She did, however, engage in the actual trainings or something. And at some point she imagined things, told the person what she imagined, and the person had a positive reaction to the description. Now, I have no problem believing that she did imagine something; most people do think in pictures part of the time; and the interaction between herself and the person she was "reading(?)" likely helped construct the picture. When she got positive feedback, after describing what she pictured; well hey, positive feedback after activity -- that's learning, that's value, "let's do that again" says your brain.

My impression was that at this point, she didn't really believe it, but was moving in the direction of believing. And I have no trouble believing this sequence of events. Even during the interview, she wasn't clearly for or against; at least that was my impression. She quoted William James saying something like: "The importance of religious belief isn't whether or not it is true, but what effect it has on people." So, it would seem that she's still somewhat agnostic, but perhaps not leaning toward skepticism as much?

In a sense, William James er.. paraphrased above, describes my philosophy as well. Do what's useful, who cares if it's ultimately correct as long as it gets me toward my goals faster. I can't wait for a perfect explanation of everything, I have to live my life as best I can with what I know now.

After I'd spent a few thousand bucks on training, I'd be motivated to believe in it, too...

Sure. But then people can look at learning nuclear physics, or becoming an astronaut, or even just getting a Ph.D. in the same way, can't they? Does a Ph.D. give one special powers? Sort of.

Btw, the certification/license process as described by the author requires that you see two "beings" or "entities" that two other spiritists (or whatever) recognize as entities they already know. Not a scientific certification, but it makes sense for the context.
Yeah...I can't help wondering how much money I'd have to spend before the other spiritists began to see the same spooks I was seeing. At some point the magic money makes all kind of good things to happen.

[Suggestologist]

Originally posted by Pyrrho

After I'd spent a few thousand bucks on training, I'd be motivated to believe in it, too...

Yeah...I can't help wondering how much money I'd have to spend before the other spiritists began to see the same spooks I was seeing. At some point the magic money makes all kind of good things to happen. [/B]

Well, I'm not as cynical. I believe that probably the greater majority believes that they are actually communicating with spirits. I do think that they are mistaken.

[Pyrrho]

Originally posted by Suggestologist
Well, I'm not as cynical. I believe that probably the greater majority believes that they are actually communicating with spirits. I do think that they are mistaken.
Oh, I agree. I just think that the "spiritist community", if you will, holds certain ideas about what the "dues" are one must pay before one receives certain levels of recognition.

[Suggestologist]

Originally posted by Pyrrho

Oh, I agree. I just think that the "spiritist community", if you will, holds certain ideas about what the "dues" are one must pay before one receives certain levels of recognition.

One could attempt to look up what the financial dues are, before one makes that argument? :)

[Pyrrho]

Originally posted by Suggestologist
One could attempt to look up what the financial dues are, before one makes that argument? :)
Readings with various psychics run into quite a bit of money. "Lessons" and other literature from "mystery school" organizations typically run $30 per set, monthly, for many years. Add to that annual dues for memberships, etc. Books, tapes, seminars...it all adds up. I used to subscribe to such things. I don't anymore, naturally. My mother-in-law spent thousands of dollars on seminars, meetings, face-to-face encounters with Big Name psychics...always seeking, never really finding.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Pyrrho
Oh, I agree. I just think that the "spiritist community", if you will, holds certain ideas about what the "dues" are one must pay before one receives certain levels of recognition.

Not just there. Astrologers hold the same ideas.

E.g. I've been heavily criticized by Danish astrologers for referring to myself as an "astrologer": I did not have the proper education, cast as many horoscopes, or have as many years of experiences as they, so how dared I besmirch their trade?

So I asked them just how many years of experience I had to have, before they would accept me as an "astrologer".

Some said never. Being a skeptic seemingly rules out being able to understand astrology.

Some gave a peculiar answer: I would have to have exactly what they had, minus 1-2 years. They never agreed on the number of years, though, it was always what they themselves had.

None, however, were able to tell me precisely what "education" I should take. That was entirely up to me, I could study where I wanted, read the books I wanted, but I could return in 15-20 years, and then, they would tell me.

It was such an obvious attempt of getting rid of skeptics (I wasn't the only skeptic who was told this tale). They demanded that I fulfilled criteria they had no idea what were. But they had no qualms claiming that they lived up to their own demands.

Feh.

Originally posted by Pyrrho
Readings with various psychics run into quite a bit of money. "Lessons" and other literature from "mystery school" organizations typically run $30 per set, monthly, for many years. Add to that annual dues for memberships, etc. Books, tapes, seminars...it all adds up. I used to subscribe to such things. I don't anymore, naturally. My mother-in-law spent thousands of dollars on seminars, meetings, face-to-face encounters with Big Name psychics...always seeking, never really finding.

It sure adds up. Try asking our resident believers just how much money they have spent on books, tapes, seminars.

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by CFLarsen

It sure adds up. Try asking our resident believers just how much money they have spent on books, tapes, seminars.

I've been told I'm a believer here. I've spent about $30 or so over the last 5 years on a couple books on Daoism, and about $100 or more on books on skepticism.

[Clancie]

Posted by Pyrrho

Readings with various psychics run into quite a bit of money. "Lessons" and other literature from "mystery school" organizations typically run $30 per set, monthly, for many years.
What's a "mystery school" organization? Was your mother-in-law studying to become a psychic? Paying "$30 a month for many years for (psychic) literature" sounds very unusual to me.
My mother-in-law spent thousands of dollars on seminars, meetings, face-to-face encounters with Big Name psychics...always seeking, never really finding.
Just curious (1) who the psychics were (if you can say) and (2) does she feel she was "always seeking, never really finding" or is that just your own interpretation of her experiences?

Several thousands of dollars for seminars, meetings, readings? Unless she saw George Anderson or Sylvia privately a couple of times, that seems like an unusually high amount for someone to spend on this....

[Pyrrho]

Originally posted by Clancie

What's a "mystery school" organization? Was your mother-in-law studying to become a psychic? Paying "$30 a month for many years for (psychic) literature" sounds very unusual to me.

"Mystery schools" are modeled after the Rosicrucian-type organization. Many organizations and psychics borrow from the old "mystery school" literature, which in turn is borrowed from Theosophy, Masonic secrets, and similar hokum. Sylvia Browne has borrowed heavily from such sources. Correspondence courses in the psychic sciences borrow from this model as well. Scientology is a kind of "mystery school", although the members might disagree. Purportedly, all this is based on the ancient Greek schools of philosophy, etc., but that's rather doubtful.

Just curious (1) who the psychics were (if you can say) and (2) does she feel she was "always seeking, never really finding" or is that just your own interpretation of her experiences?

J Z Knight, for one. Paid big bucks to study, go to seminars, etc. Only one of many different ventures my mother-in-law got involved in over the years. Yes, it's my opinion that she never found what she was looking for, if her expressions of dissatisfaction over the years are any indication. But then again, you only have my word for it.

Several thousands of dollars for seminars, meetings, readings? Unless she saw George Anderson or Sylvia privately a couple of times, that seems like an unusually high amount for someone to spend on this....
The current crop of celebrity mediums/psychics/etc. are not the mainstream of the psychic industry. Their careers are set on a foundation built over many decades by other practitioners who are not famous, but who are well-known in that industry. The celebrities have borrowed quite a bit from other peoples' work, such as that of Alice A. Bailey, Drs. Helen Schucman and William Thetford, Helena Blavatsky, Robert Chaney, and others. The Andersons and Brownes and von Praaghs and Edwards are frill; the real work that underpins their enterprises costs more in terms of money and time, if one really wants to learn the material.

[Keneke]

Being a member of one of these mystery schools, I can tell you that some (perhaps most?) have nothing woo-woo about them. Kiwanis, Masons, Shriners, fraternities and sororities are perfectly legit on paper. Sure, there are secrets, but not magical secrets in any way except metaphorically.