Derren Brown faking

[silver birch]

I watched Derren Brown on the television recently. He pulled a girl at random from the audience onto the stage. the girl sat on a chair, he snapped his fingers and said sleep like a stage hypnotist and the girl immediately lowered her head and appeared to go into a hypnotic sleep. this was faking by both of them, when a stage hypnotist does this the subject has been through an induction process which may take half an hour, and which by law is not allowed to be shown on television. you cannot go up to someone the first time, snap your fingers and say sleep.

[Nursefoxfire]

I watched Derren Brown on the television recently. He pulled a girl at random from the audience onto the stage. the girl sat on a chair, he snapped his fingers and said sleep like a stage hypnotist and the girl immediately lowered her head and appeared to go into a hypnotic sleep. this was faking by both of them, when a stage hypnotist does this the subject has been through an induction process which may take half an hour, and which by law is not allowed to be shown on television. you cannot go up to someone the first time, snap your fingers and say sleep.

Which law would that be, then?

[Careyp74]

I have suspected him of playing the same games as the other TV magicians. His angle is a new one though.

[PrettyKitty]

Isn't Derren Brown's whole act designed to prove how fake "psychics" & hypnotists are? This was probably a part of that.
I recently watched a part of his show where he does horoscopes for a bunch of people and it ends up they all got the same one. Meanwhile they are amazed at how accurate he is.

[Lanzy]

I recently watched a part of his show where he does horoscopes for a bunch of people and it ends up they all got the same one. Meanwhile they are amazed at how accurate he is.

Seems a lot of folks are doing this one lately.

[leon_heller]

All people that are hypnotised are playing along with the hypnotist.

Leon

[PrettyKitty]

Yeah, it's definitely not original, but these were mostly teenagers, so hopefully they learned some critical thinking skills.

[Soapy Sam]

A stage magician faking?

Well. There's a first time for everything.

[grayman]

SLEEP!

http://www.angelfire.com/mt/3000/808.jpg

[Ysidro]

SLEEP!

http://www.angelfire.com/mt/3000/808.jpg


zzzzzZZZZZZZzzzzzz

[Mojo]

Faking what, exactly?

[Kuko 4000]

Isn't Derren Brown's whole act designed to prove how fake "psychics" & hypnotists are?


I've seen all of his stuff and, overall, I don't think so, but it's pretty close. If I had to guess, I would say they are designed to make the audience enjoy, think and question what they just saw. First and foremost he is a magician, a mentalist and a great entertainer. His show has included debunking and he pretty much always wants to sneak in a comment on how he personally doesn't believe in anything paranormal, psychics, etc. Off stage and in his books Derren is a very vocal advocate of scepticism. His new-ish Youtube sideshow, 'The Science of Scams' concentrates on demonstrating and exposing the tricks many paranormal frauds / tricksters use.

http://www.youtube.com/user/scienceofscamsc4

[P.J. Denyer]

Faking what, exactly?

Well, he claims to be a performer, so if he's faking that would mean............




OMG! Really is psychic!!!! :jaw-dropp

[KingMerv00]

Which law would that be, then?

I would also like to see that law.

[StanBearclaw]

Doing some searching, it seems like that notion is out there, but I haven't found any sort of legitimate source that confirms it. For instance:

It should be noted that hypnosis is considered dangerous enough that it is illegal to broadcast a hypnotic induction on television.
http://www.ctka.net/pr598-rfk.html

...and although it is currently illegal to show hypnotic induction on British television...
http://www.forteantimes.com/features/interviews/150/derren_brown.html

[StanBearclaw]

Well, here is the BBC's editorial guidelines regarding hypnotism:
Hypnotism

The Hypnotism Act 1952 (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/RevisedStatutes/Acts/ukpga/1952/cukpga_19520046_en_1) requires any demonstrations of hypnotism for public entertainment to be licensed. It prohibits demonstrations on people under eighteen and applies to any broadcast demonstration of hypnotism at, or in connection with, an entertainment which admits the public.

Although we have no evidence of harm or potential harm regarding the use of hypnosis on television or radio we should still take steps to minimise any risk of inducing hypnosis and/or adverse reactions in susceptible viewers or listeners. In particular, a hypnotist must not broadcast his/her full verbal routine or be shown performing straight to camera. Hypnotism acts in entertainment programmes, particularly those designed to ridicule someone, should be treated with care. They might be both harmful and offensive to our audience.

Any proposal to feature a demonstration of hypnosis must be referred to a senior editorial figure or for Independents to the commissioning editor.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/editorialguidelines/edguide/harm/hypnotism.shtml



A hypnotist must not be shown performing straight to camera
...hmmmmmm....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yXR-slW_aE

Throw the bastard in jail!

[grayman]

A hypnotist must not be shown performing straight to camera
...hmmmmmm....

"And now -- if you dare! LOOK! Into the Hypnotic Eye! You cannot look away! You cannot look away! You cannot look away!"

-- The Great Desmond

http://www.badmovieplanet.com/3btheater/h/h-images/hypnoticeye/hypnotic3.jpg

[RSLancastr]

Yeah, it's definitely not original, but these were mostly teenagers, so hopefully they learned some critical thinking skills.There's a video of Randi doing this with a class full of teenagers. I think it was part of the Nova episode about psychics.

[Jeff Corey]

Seems a lot of folks are doing this one lately.
Since Forer did this sixty years ago, quite a lot of people, including psychology teachers, have done it quite often. In an interesting twist, Forer got his statements from astrology columns and presented them as the results of a personality test, while Randi and others present it as a horoscope reading. I've presented it as the result of a Rorschach Test..
B.R.Forer (1949) The fallibility of personal validation:A classroom demonstration of gullibility. Journal of Abnormal and Social Psychology, 44, 118-23.

[silver birch]

Which law would that be, then?
I'm not a lawer, but this is what Peter powers has actually said on a Dutch tv show which is on you tube. he brings this girl in the studio says sleep and she goes into a hypnotic sleep. he said it works because she has been through the induction which is not allowed to be shown by law. you don't see it on british tv either.

[silver birch]

All people that are hypnotised are playing along with the hypnotist.

Leon
you must have been very busy questioning all people that have been hypnotized. that statement is absurd. I wasn't and I did know what I had done until I was told afterwards. someone in a deep trance known as somnambulism with thier eyes open looks like a normal 'awake' person so it can be hard to tell, but is highly suggestible. to me it was like going to sleep, waking up and being told what I had done. read a book entitled 'Investigating stage hypnosis

[silver birch]

Faking what, exactly?
the girl was exactly faking going into a hypnotic sleep and Derren Brown was exactly faking puting her in one.

[silver birch]

All people that are hypnotised are playing along with the hypnotist.

Leon
does that include someone who in a trance has a needle pushed through their flesh without flinching, or has teeth extracted without anaesthetic?

[Toke]

does that include someone who in a trance has a needle pushed through their flesh without flinching, or has teeth extracted without anaesthetic?

If it works why don't dentists use it?

[grayman]

does that include someone who in a trance has a needle pushed through their flesh without flinching, or has teeth extracted without anaesthetic?

You have a link?

[Olowkow]

Google "hypnosis". Read the first line in the Wiki entry in the Google list. It has been changed in the actual text.:) Hurry, it might disappear.

Note: NSFW

[Toke]

I am pretty sure it will disappear soon. :D

[Moochie]

Since Forer did this sixty years ago, quite a lot of people, including psychology teachers, have done it quite often. In an interesting twist, Forer got his statements from astrology columns and presented them as the results of a personality test, while Randi and others present it as a horoscope reading. I've presented it as the result of a Rorschach Test..
B.R.Forer (1949) The fallibility of personal validation:A classroom demonstration of gullibility. Journal of Abnormal and Social Psychology, 44, 118-23.

This thread sort of brings home how fundamentally incurious so many of us are about issues that defy natural laws. It can be understood in young children, but I am stymied to understand how people who have reached the age of majority, and who have had a good general education allow themselves to be so easily drawn to believing, or even entertaining belief, in abject nonsense.


M.

[Alan]

I am pretty sure it will disappear soon. :D
It's gone. Thankfully.

[Olowkow]

It's gone. Thankfully.

I just checked, it's still there from this site. How bizarre.

Anyway, I used to do a lot of hypnosis in college...a long time ago, and then quite a bit afterward. The jury is now out for me on what is going on, but I did all kinds of dumb stuff like anesthetizing, memory loss, hallucinations, and I was totally convinced it worked. We had all sorts of techniques to determine if someone was faking it.

I had a friend who had a business using hypnotherapy, helped dozens of people stop smoking, his wife gave birth to several children under hypnosis, without pain, he helped people with agoraphobia. He and I did many shows in front of a lot of people. I still am convinced that it can stop pain, though sadly, I have never been able to be hypnotized.

I have not hypnotized anyone in a long time, and I have no stake in its validity or woo, but perhaps we should start a thread dedicated to this subject. I'm not particularly interested in doing so, but I would love to read what people who are now practicing would have to say about it.

[Toke]

It's gone. Thankfully.
Still there when I search.

[imjohn]

Still there when I search.
Gone from wikipedia but the google cache you see on the search still has it.

[StanBearclaw]

Oh no, someone wrote "cock" on wikipedia! :rolleyes:

Why are you people acting like a bunch of 10 year old girls?

[silver birch]

[quote=Toke;5307837]If it works why don't dentists use it?[/quote
in the book 'Medical and Dental Hypnosis' by John Hartland, a standard reference for students of hypnosis, he explains how someone can be hypnotized not to feel pain. however only about 10 per cent of people can achieve the deep level of somnambulistic trance needed.

[silver birch]

Isn't Derren Brown's whole act designed to prove how fake "psychics" & hypnotists are? This was probably a part of that.
I recently watched a part of his show where he does horoscopes for a bunch of people and it ends up they all got the same one. Meanwhile they are amazed at how accurate he is.
to find out if hypnotists are fake, hypnotize Derren Brown and give him the suggestion- 'when the music starts you are a porn star' , { it will be with a blow-up doll }.

[Toke]

in the book 'Medical and Dental Hypnosis' by John Hartland, a standard reference for students of hypnosis, he explains how someone can be hypnotized not to feel pain. however only about 10 per cent of people can achieve the deep level of somnambulistic trance needed.

I am not that surprised that people making a living teaching, or selling books on hypnosis believe in it's effects.
Do you know of any real medical studies on the subject?

Anyway, Derren Brown is an entertainer.
He is really good at faking supernatural powers in an entertaining way.

May I recommend "Mr. deity and the magic" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KSLRjDR4aQ)

[silver birch]

[quote=Toke;5309995]I am not that surprised that people making a living teaching, or selling books on hypnosis believe in it's effects.
Do you know of any real medical studies on the subject

John Hartland is not some snake oil salesman. here are the letters after his name- B.Sc.,M.B.,Ch.B.,M.R.C.S.,L.R.C.P.
here are his credentials- Consulting Psychiatrist, formerly visiting psychiatrist, hallam hospital west bromwhich, president of the british society of medical and dental hypnosis, life president of the midlands branch of the british society of medical and dental hypnosis, honorary fellow of the american society of clinical hypnosis, fellow of the international society for clinical and experimental hypnosis, editor of the british journal of clinical hypnosis.
if you want to learn something about hypnosis read the book.

[silver birch]

Anyway, Derren Brown is an entertainer.
He is really good at faking supernatural powers in an entertaining way.

there is nothing supernatural about hypnotism and a hypnotist would not claim it to be. if anything it is an art.
anyone can fake being hypnotized, you just look like you are hypnotized, and someone deeply hypnotized staying in a trance with their eyes open looks almost like a normal person. this is why so many people think hypnotism is not real.

[grayman]

Self-hypnosis via youtube:

CnU2Ld1ttoE

There's plenty more.

[HypnoPsi]

All people that are hypnotised are playing along with the hypnotist.

Leon

Leon,

I've been a Clinical Hypnotherapist for the better part of 20 years.

*Everybody* participating in a stage hypnosis show is "playing along" with the (stage) hypnotist.

Stage hypnosis is audience participation in comedy routines and nothing more.

Provided health and safety laws are followed, stage hypnosis is probably about as dangerous as doing the Time Warp when The Rocky Horror Show is on in the theatre.

(Personally, I would much prefer it if they called themselves "mesmerists" instead but... what the hey... It's a free world.)

Clinical Hypnosis is quite different. Usually, the patient is led into a deeply relaxed state of focussed attention via suggestions to relax each part of their body. (This takes about 30 minutes or so.)

Once they are relaxed the hypnotherapist then provides the suggestions/visualisation to see themselves; being a non-smoker; having long and healthy nails (not biting them); passing their driving test, etc., etc.,. (Whatever the patient wants to change.)

Hypnotherapy is almost entirely "mental rehearsal". The rest is just giving suggestions - "you can stop smoking..", etc.,.

Hypnotherapy is counselling (or, more accurately, being counselled) with your eyes shut.

Physiologically, in laymans terms, hypnotherapy is also a _bit_ like getting an extra hours sleep for your body.

_
HypnoPsi

[Toke]

Well ok, I know only of the stage version and take it for entertainment only.

I have no idea if it could work in a more private setting.
It just seem a bit far-fetched.

(guess I could explain any effect with some really hardcore placebo, that is an effect too)

[HypnoPsi]

I am not that surprised that people making a living teaching, or selling books on hypnosis believe in it's effects.


11794 links for "hypnosis" on pubmed (I can't cut and paste the link as the search is embedded on the website).

By my estimation, in terms of the various types of psychotherapy that exist, clinical hypnosis is only beaten on the numbers of papers written and experiments done by CBT (cognitive behavioural therapy).

The effects of relaxation on the body are pretty well understood. There is no real big mystery to hypnosis.

As for the power of suggestion, imagery and visualization, well... advertisers are probably the biggest and best "hypnotists" around.

And they really exagerate things - wearing blue jeans and drinking Pepsi instead of Coke does not actually make you irresistable to girls or the coolest guy in the neighborhood.

That said, within reason, relaxation, mental rehearsal and mental preparation can indeed have a (completely natural) positive effect - such as for sitting a driving test or coping with exam nerves, etc.,.
_
HypnoPsi

[Toke]

Don't take "hardcore placebo" as something negative, I just can't come up with a better term.

[HypnoPsi]

Well ok, I know only of the stage version and take it for entertainment only.

I have no idea if it could work in a more private setting.
It just seem a bit far-fetched.


Well, look at it this way - due to constant exposure to adverts most of us are pretty immune to the 'tricks' used to persuade us to part with our money for the sellers products - but we're not totally immune (not by far).

And... most of us do certainly pay more attention to adverts (and, specifically, products) that are for our age group, gender and income level, etc.,. (Or our "market segment" to use the posh term.)

Now, let's say someone came to see me to stop biting their nails...

When I meet them I listen to what they say very carefully and take notes about why they - as an individual - want to stop biting their nails.

For one person, it may be their work colleagues noticing they bite their nails that they really don't like. Another client might give a different set of reasons entirely - they might have a busy social life and, if female, not like the fact that they can't paint their nails pretty colours, etc.,.

Whatever it is they say to me - that's what determines the visualsation and suggestions I give them back once they are deeply relaxed.

So, it's a bit like a tailor made mental advert.

Now, returning to adverts for products, like cars, bikes, perfume, etc.,... One of the hardest things to get your head around is the fact that nobody actually buys products.

Instead, people buy happiness, security, popularity, bragging-rights, etc.,.

I don't have time to go into the psychology of it all - but, trust me when I say, its the first thing that advertisers learn when they get into the job.

So, hypnosis, is really just giving someone good counselling advice by paying attention to what the patient says (and discerning what they need and want).

(Well, okay, it's not just that - but that is a big part of it.)

(guess I could explain any effect with some really hardcore placebo, that is an effect too)


Well.... yes. Hypnosis, mind-body interactions, psychophysiology or whatever you want to call it does, in my view, offer us insight into the placebo effect (though I definitely don't think we've got it fully understood just yet).

But hypnosis is not a placebo.

Specifically, a placebo is something that is inert that the patient believes will help them (such as sugar pills in place of a drug in clinical trials).

Physical relaxation, suggestions and imagery aren't, technically, inert in and of themselves - we can measure their effects scientifically.

Hypnotherapy is really nothing more than a fairly strightforward form of psychotherapy.

It is true that there are loads of new-agey types out there who look for shortcuts in things like NLP and all that but really most of hypnotherapy is plain old common sense, good listening skills and a little bit of creativity in building up a picture in the clients mind.

~
HypnoPsi

[HypnoPsi]

Don't take "hardcore placebo" as something negative, I just can't come up with a better term.

No sweat - I didn't.

And placebo's can be pretty hardcore.

Some of the research into placebos with gastro-intestinal (and colonic) ulcers is mind blowing.

~
HypnoPsi

[silver birch]

[quote=HypnoPsi;5330357]Leon,

I've been a Clinical Hypnotherapist for the better part of 20 years.

*Everybody* participating in a stage hypnosis show is "playing along" with the (stage) hypnotist.

this is just not true.
I'm not a hypnotist but I have been hypnotized many times and I've been made to do things I would not normally do in front of people with no memory of what I have done afterwards in a somnambulistic trance.
very often participants are playing along and the stage hypnotist allows it to entertain but a good hypnotist is looking for someone who can go into somnambulism and carry out suggestions, which is only about one in five people.
stage hypnotism is banned in some countries and some people want it banned in the uk.
read a book entitled-investigating stage hypnosis.

[silver birch]

a good book to read-'Investigating stage hypnosis' by Tracie O'Keefe.
on the back cover-in the first book ever to provide an in-depth investigation into the world of stage hypnotism, Tracie O'Keefe, a harley street clinical hypnotist, examines the devastating side effects suffered by many volunteers. headaches psychosis, blackouts and depression are just some of the symptoms that can be caused by this kind of entertainment. in the case of Sharan Tabarn death may have been the ultimate price she paid for taking part in the show. statements from the victims themselves alongside the opinion of many experts make this book compelling reading.

[silver birch]

[quote=HypnoPsi;5330357]Leon,

I've been a Clinical Hypnotherapist for the better part of 20 years.

*Everybody* participating in a stage hypnosis show is "playing along" with the (stage) hypnotist.

Stage hypnosis is audience participation in comedy routines and nothing more.

This is one of the myths put around by hypnotherapists. others are-you are aware of what you are doing and you would not do anything you would not normally do. the reason hypnotherapists say this is because people will not be afraid to come to them for expensive hypnotherapy so they can make money.

[JFrankA]

I'm a stage hypnotist/magician. Not as a "day job" but I get a gig or two.

I start every show by explaining that hypnosis is about the same thing as going to the movies. You sit in a comfortable chair while brilliant images and loud exciting sounds occur around you. You laugh at the funny bits, you feel badly for the protagonist at the sad bits, your heart races during the car chase, and you feel a rush of victory and cheer when the protagonist wins.

..all the while you are completely unaware of the guy in front of you eating his popcorn loudly...

It's relaxation, focus and yes, a willingness (not necessarily and not usually a conscious decision) of the participant to let themselves go. (and not necessarily to "play along" - I think that implies a conscious decision).

My shows still work after giving the audience this bit of education.

As to Derren snapping his fingers and the person drops, what you probably didn't see was the few minutes or so of him giving suggestions to make that work.

In fact, I have put people under quickly by just commanding them to sleep, but in all honesty, there's always a suggestion to do so beforehand.

[silver birch]

[quote=JFrankA;5332875]I'm a stage hypnotist/magician. Not as a "day job" but I get a gig or two.

I start every show by explaining that hypnosis is about the same thing as going to the movies. You sit in a comfortable chair while brilliant images and loud exciting sounds occur around you. You laugh at the funny bits, you feel badly for the protagonist at the sad bits, your heart races during the car chase, and you feel a rush of victory and cheer when the protagonist wins.

..all the while you are completely unaware of the guy in front of you eating his popcorn loudly...

It's relaxation, focus and yes, a willingness (not necessarily and not usually a conscious decision) of the participant to let themselves go. (and not necessarily to "play along" - I think that implies a conscious decision).

My shows still work after giving the audience this bit of education.

As to Derren snapping his fingers and the person drops, what you probably didn't see was the few minutes or so of him giving suggestions to make that work.
I watched the tv program from the begining. at a point in his show he tossed something into the audience saying he was choosing someone completely at random, there was no pre-induction whatever.

[JFrankA]

I watched the tv program from the begining. at a point in his show he tossed something into the audience saying he was choosing someone completely at random, there was no pre-induction whatever.

...that wasn't edited out... :)

Of course, sudden confusion and suggestion works just as well. :)

Look, I'm going to give you what some people sell for thousands of dollars. If you get someone relaxed enough or confused enough to not allow them to think critically, making a suggestion works. It doesn't last for a long time, it's very temporary, but it does work.

[silver birch]

if you watch this video with Peter Powers he explains how he hypnotizes the subject so the command sleep puts them into a hypnotic sleep.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qTZGOB2ffE&feature=related

[JFrankA]

if you watch this video with Peter Powers he explains how he hypnotizes the subject so the command sleep puts them into a hypnotic sleep.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qTZGOB2ffE&feature=related

I'm sorry, I have to watch it when I get out of work, but thanks for the link.

[HypnoPsi]

I've been a Clinical Hypnotherapist for the better part of 20 years.

*Everybody* participating in a stage hypnosis show is "playing along" with the (stage) hypnotist.

this is just not true.


Yes it is.

I'm not a hypnotist but I have been hypnotized many times and I've been made to do things I would not normally do in front of people with no memory of what I have done afterwards in a somnambulistic trance.


No you haven't. All stage hypnosis is play acting. What did the hypnotist *ask* you to do exactly? Put on a ballerinna's skirt and hop around the stage?

In the UK the standard practice is to have everyone in the audience clasp their hands together while the stage hypnotist has them imagine thier hands are getting tighter and tighter.

This is nothing but cramp of the muscles in the forearm - some members of a large enough audience will be affected and some won't - and that's all there is to it.

After all the "oohing" and "ahhing" a few people go up on the stage and the hypnotist hits them on the back of the neck or shoulder with the microphone and says "Sleep!" - then the show begins.

That's it - it's all show acting and nothing more.

very often participants are playing along and the stage hypnotist allows it to entertain but a good hypnotist is looking for someone who can go into somnambulism and carry out suggestions, which is only about one in five people.
stage hypnotism is banned in some countries and some people want it banned in the uk.
read a book entitled-investigating stage hypnosis.


Well, I'm certainly no stage hynotist - but the whole anti stage-hypnosis thing is all utter nonsense.

YOU CANNOT JUST COMMAND PEOPLE ON STAGE TO "SLEEP!" REPEATEDLY (WHILE STANDING UP) AND THEN TO ACTUALLY, REALLY, GENUINELY, THINK THEY'RE A CHICKEN OR THAT THEY'VE ONLY GOT FOUR FINGERS!

~
HypnoPsi

[HypnoPsi]

a good book to read-'Investigating stage hypnosis' by Tracie O'Keefe.
on the back cover-in the first book ever to provide an in-depth investigation into the world of stage hypnotism, Tracie O'Keefe, a harley street clinical hypnotist, examines the devastating side effects suffered by many volunteers. headaches psychosis, blackouts and depression are just some of the symptoms that can be caused by this kind of entertainment. in the case of Sharan Tabarn death may have been the ultimate price she paid for taking part in the show. statements from the victims themselves alongside the opinion of many experts make this book compelling reading.


Yeah, and dressing up in stockings, suspenders and a basque Frank 'N Furter for the Rocky Horror Show can cause you embrassment in front of your friends too. (And, apparently, high heels are also bad for you.)

Volunteers for stage hypnosis shows are no more inclined to headaches, psychosis(!), blackouts or depression than paid actors in a Shakespeare play.

If someone doesn't want to look funny on stage they shouldn't go up on stage.

~
HypnoPsi

[HypnoPsi]

Leon,

I've been a Clinical Hypnotherapist for the better part of 20 years.

*Everybody* participating in a stage hypnosis show is "playing along" with the (stage) hypnotist.

Stage hypnosis is audience participation in comedy routines and nothing more.

This is one of the myths put around by hypnotherapists.


Nope. Stage hypnosis is, literally, nothing other than "let's pretend".

others are-you are aware of what you are doing and you would not do anything you would not normally do.


Nope. This isn't a myth either. Volunteers are aware - completely - of what they are doing. Whether or not being on stage and pretending to be hypnotisted lessens their inhibitions is another matter.

But again, if they don't want to play the fool for others entertainment they shouldn't go up on stage.

the reason hypnotherapists say this is because people will not be afraid to come to them for expensive hypnotherapy so they can make money.


I won't deny that some people are put off hypnotherapy because they believe in stage hypnosis. They are, however, such a small minority of people that it doesn't really matter.

There are plenty more reasons why volunteers would wish their friends and family to think they were really "hypnotised".

~
HypnoPsi

[HypnoPsi]

It's relaxation, focus and yes, a willingness (not necessarily and not usually a conscious decision) of the participant to let themselves go. (and not necessarily to "play along" - I think that implies a conscious decision).


Peer pressure, audience expectation, a couple of drinks and the social situation of being on stage can effect the decisions people make.

That's all.

I have no doubt your shows work out just fine.

~
HypnoPsi

[HypnoPsi]

If you get someone relaxed enough or confused enough to not allow them to think critically, making a suggestion works. It doesn't last for a long time, it's very temporary, but it does work.


They're stage struck.

~
HypnoPsi

[JFrankA]

Peer pressure, audience expectation, a couple of drinks and the social situation of being on stage can effect the decisions people make.

That's all.

I have no doubt your shows work out just fine.

~
HypnoPsi


They're stage struck.

~
HypnoPsi

I'm sure there's a element of that too, but hypnosis is hypnosis. No matter what the setting is, the elements are the same:

relaxation, concentration, desire, confusion, belief, trust, suggestion.

Sure, I get people up there who are play acting, but not everyone is. Being stage struck adds to the confusion needed to make a suggestion work, peer pressure helps in making people believe a suggestion. It's all the same.

In it's basic form hypnotherapy is no different than stage hypnosis. Both depend on playing on the desires and belief of the participant, with relaxation and/or confusion to get someone to follow a suggestion.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there's something "magical" or "woo" about it. I'm simply saying that there is no difference between the basic method of hypnotizing someone for therapy and entertainment. I will agree that there are some people who are "just playing along", that true of both therapy and stage hypnosis. In either case, not everyone is "just playing along" either.

[silver birch]

[quote=HypnoPsi;5338650]Yes it is.


I don't want to get stuck in a pantomime dialogue- oh no it isn't, oh yes it is, oh no it isn't, oh yes it is.
I am sure you are correct about most participants in a stage show, but not all.

I would like to talk about the word- somnamblism
I'll look it up somnambulism in the Oxford dictionary, a british publication
walking or performing other actions while asleep, artificial somnambulism hypnotism.
so the word has two meanings, one refers to a deep level of hypnotism, an early name for hypnotism was artificial somnambulism because someone hypnotized resembled a natural somnambulist. natural somnambulism is an established fact. a somnambulist might get up in the night go into the kitchen and raid the fridge and have no meaory of it the following morning. no-one says you were play- acting, he was under the influence of the unconscious mind which can do most things the conscious mind can do.
now I know hypnosis is not sleep, but in both cases the person is under the influence of the unconscious mind which does not know what is real and what is not real. this is how subjects can be made to carry out suggestions and at that trance level the hypnotists voice becomes the subjects inner voice,although there is some subconscious resistance and if the suggestion is too objectionable the subject will come out of the trance.
why some people think it's all fake is because someone hypnotized looks like like a normal person.
I don't think anyone is qualified to pass judgement on somnambulism until they have been hypnotized to somnambulism themselves. however only about one in five can achieve this.

[Terry]

silver birch, please try not to edit out the [/quote] tag when you're replying to someone, it makes your posts very hard to read.

[silver birch]

a good book to read is entitled- Open to suggestion, by Robert Temple (not to be cofused with a hypnotist of the same name0 I would to quote from it.
back cover-open to suggestion is the first book this century to convey the full range and potential of hypnosis, for good and for ill. it sweeps away the popular myths about the subject and presents the facts-many for the very first time. best-selling author Robert Temple, whose 10 years of investigstion have taken him all over the world to come to know the foremost researchers in the field, has collected together the evidence and countless case histories never before made available in book form.
chapter 1-a person capable of deep hypnotic trance can be made to forget his own name, not to feel flame burning him or needlles piercing his skin, can have his leg amputated without feeling it, can become unable to open his eyes, can become entirely paralysed all over his body, can see people who don't exist standing in front of him and carry on conversations with them in which he imagines their replies, can fail to see people who are standing in front of him, and even try to walk right through them, can have dreams dictated by the hypnotist, can watch films which are constructed by his own fantasy, can answer questions asked by imaginary people who don't exist, can regress to almost any age and see long forgotten childhood friends and imagine he is eating his birthday cake on his fourth birthday, speaking like a child, can recall forgotten or repressed information of great importance, can give information percieved subconsciously and which was never consciously held, can have no memory whatever of the trance induction or of any of the instructions given in trance by the hypnotist. can eat onions and think they are chocolates. can believe he is flying , floating or swimming or has become a fish or animal, can be raped without being to struggle and be made to forget that the rape has taken place.

[silver birch]

another good book is 'Medical and dental hypnosis' by John Hartland.
page 13-hypnosis is essentialy a particular state of mind which is usually induced in one person by another. it is a state of mind in which suggestions are not only more readily accepted than in the waking state, but are also acted upon much more powerfully than would be possible under normal conditions. in other words, the hypnotic state is always accompanied by an increase in the suggestability of the subject.
in the hypnotic state the power of criticism is either fully or partialy suppresed.
to understand how this occurs we must understand the concept of the unconscious mind. this postulates that in everyone there is a portion of the mind that is constantly influencing our thoughts and behaviour, the existance of which we are normally unaware. the unconscious mind is a much greater part of the mind and normally we are quite unaware of its existance. it is the seat of all our memories, all our past experiences, and all of that we have learned.under certain circumstances it can also undertake most of the functions of the conscious mind, with one important exception-the power of criticism.
page 150- all kinds of sense delusions can be produced in deep hypnosic states many of which are so remarkable that anyone seeing them for the first time may well be excused for doubting the reality of the phenomana.in everyday life we all depend so completely upon our sense organs that it seems incredible that a few words or phrases can suceed in placing the hypnotic subject in entirely different surroundings. but before many phenomena suchb as these can be elicited, a very deep or even somnambulistic trance is usually essential.
somnambulism-this is generally considered to be one of the deepest stages of hypnosis and one of the tests of this condition is to cause the subject to open his eyes without awakening from the trance. he will be able to see quite clearly, to talk and to walk about while still remaining deeply hypnotized and will continue to carry out all the suggestions made to him by the hypnotist. sometimes it can be very difficult to tell wether a good somnambule is actually in a hypnotic state or not. possibly the only criterion by which this may be judged is the extent to which the subject will respond to suggestion, and to produce complete amnesia for the events of the trance state.

[silver birch]

a good book to read on hypnotism is called 'Secret don't tell' by Carla Emery

http://www.hypnotism.org/Bookcont.htm

[HypnoPsi]

I'm sure there's a element of that too, but hypnosis is hypnosis. No matter what the setting is, the elements are the same:

relaxation, concentration, desire, confusion, belief, trust, suggestion.


Just exactly like watching a movie....

Sure, I get people up there who are play acting, but not everyone is.

How can you tell the 'genuinely hypnotised' from those 'play acting'?


Being stage struck adds to the confusion needed to make a suggestion work, peer pressure helps in making people believe a suggestion. It's all the same.


Yes, and people like to let their inhibitions down...


I'm simply saying that there is no difference between the basic method of hypnotizing someone for therapy and entertainment.


Stage hypnosis takes a few minutes at most to get the participants in place and ready to perform (depending on how dramatic the stage hypnotist is). A hypnotherapist will typically go through a progressive physical relaxation for about 25 minutes or so during the session.

Sorry, but I just don't see any similarity whatsoever between stage hypnosis and hypnotherapy (any more than I see a similarity between hypnotherapy and doing the Time Warp or dressing up for the Rocky Horror Show).

~
HypnoPsi

[HypnoPsi]

I don't want to get stuck in a pantomime dialogue- oh no it isn't, oh yes it is, oh no it isn't, oh yes it is.
I am sure you are correct about most participants in a stage show, but not all.


Stage hypnosis is not real.

How do you tell the play actors apart from those genuinely hypnotised?


[I would like to talk about the word- somnamblism
I'll look it up somnambulism in the Oxford dictionary, a british publication
walking or performing other actions while asleep, artificial somnambulism hypnotism.
so the word has two meanings, one refers to a deep level of hypnotism,


So says the Oxford Dictionary. So what? Says I.

an early name for hypnotism was artificial somnambulism because someone hypnotized resembled a natural somnambulist. natural somnambulism is an established fact.


Yes, sleepwalking is real. But it's a state of confusion that generally occurs in slow wave sleep.

Stage hypnosis is "Sleep! - Right this onion isn't an onion - it's a juicy apple!" "Sleep! You've lost your penis! Go out into the audience and ask if anyone's seen it!" "Sleep! You can now only speak in Klingon!", etc., etc.,.


now I know hypnosis is not sleep, but in both cases the person is under the influence of the unconscious mind which does not know what is real and what is not real. this is how subjects can be made to carry out suggestions and at that trance level the hypnotists voice becomes the subjects inner voice,although there is some subconscious resistance and if the suggestion is too objectionable the subject will come out of the trance.

How convenient...

How do you know they're not play acting the whole time? Where are the brain scans of people during rapid fire stage shows to prove any of your assertions?


why some people think it's all fake is because someone hypnotized looks like like a normal person.


The reaons they look like normal people play acting is because [i]they are normal pepole play acting.


I don't think anyone is qualified to pass judgement on somnambulism until they have been hypnotized to somnambulism themselves. however only about one in five can achieve this.


I have dealt with many clients/patients who report they are sleepwalkers/somnambulists in my time. Yes, they usually report they were very deeply relaxed and often get great results from their session but this is asolutely nothing even remotely like stage hypnosis.

The only people the "induction" in a stage hypnosis show is for is the audience. It's all appearances - exactly like the distractions a magician uses while performing tricks.

People get excited on stage - especially if they've had a couple at the bar and know they can get away with acting a little crazy. But that's all it is.

~
HypnoPsi

[HypnoPsi]

a good book to read is entitled- Open to suggestion, by Robert Temple (not to be cofused with a hypnotist of the same name0 I would to quote from it.
back cover-open to suggestion is the first book this century to convey the full range and potential of hypnosis, for good and for ill. it sweeps away the popular myths about the subject and presents the facts-many for the very first time. best-selling author Robert Temple, whose 10 years of investigstion have taken him all over the world to come to know the foremost researchers in the field, has collected together the evidence and countless case histories never before made available in book form.
chapter 1-a person capable of deep hypnotic trance can be made to forget his own name, not to feel flame burning him or needlles piercing his skin, can have his leg amputated without feeling it, can become unable to open his eyes, can become entirely paralysed all over his body, can see people who don't exist standing in front of him and carry on conversations with them in which he imagines their replies, can fail to see people who are standing in front of him, and even try to walk right through them, can have dreams dictated by the hypnotist, can watch films which are constructed by his own fantasy, can answer questions asked by imaginary people who don't exist, can regress to almost any age and see long forgotten childhood friends and imagine he is eating his birthday cake on his fourth birthday, speaking like a child, can recall forgotten or repressed information of great importance, can give information percieved subconsciously and which was never consciously held, can have no memory whatever of the trance induction or of any of the instructions given in trance by the hypnotist. can eat onions and think they are chocolates. can believe he is flying , floating or swimming or has become a fish or animal, can be raped without being to struggle and be made to forget that the rape has taken place.


This is a mixture of truth and outright utter nonsense - and I get the feeling that going through each claim above with you would be completely futile.

~
HypnoPsi

[HypnoPsi]

another good book is 'Medical and dental hypnosis' by John Hartland.


A book I am somewhat familiar with having trained with it many years ago - and one that is considerably more sensible than the Temple book you mention.

page 13-hypnosis is essentialy a particular state of mind which is usually induced in one person by another. it is a state of mind in which suggestions are not only more readily accepted than in the waking state, but are also acted upon much more powerfully than would be possible under normal conditions. in other words, the hypnotic state is always accompanied by an increase in the suggestability of the subject.


Which parts of the above are quotes, which edition are you using and which parts are your own thoughts?

Hypnosis is a relaxed state of focussed attention and nothing more. I disagree that people are actually 'more suggestible' under hypnosis (in the typical way that people tend to think the term means).

During hypnotherapy, people are merely just not thinking about the outside world or their worries and troubles as they learn to see themselves as a non-smoker or whatever.

Saying that patients are more 'suggestible' in hypnosis is very derogatory and erroneous.

in the hypnotic state the power of criticism is either fully or partialy suppresed.


No it bleeding well isn't. This is bunk - even though I'm very sure this one comes from Hartland's.


to understand how this occurs we must understand the concept of the unconscious mind. this postulates that in everyone there is a portion of the mind that is constantly influencing our thoughts and behaviour, the existance of which we are normally unaware. the unconscious mind is a much greater part of the mind and normally we are quite unaware of its existance. it is the seat of all our memories, all our past experiences, and all of that we have learned.under certain circumstances it can also undertake most of the functions of the conscious mind, with one important exception-the power of criticism.
page 150- all kinds of sense delusions can be produced in deep hypnosic states many of which are so remarkable that anyone seeing them for the first time may well be excused for doubting the reality of the phenomana.in everyday life we all depend so completely upon our sense organs that it seems incredible that a few words or phrases can suceed in placing the hypnotic subject in entirely different surroundings. but before many phenomena suchb as these can be elicited, a very deep or even somnambulistic trance is usually essential.
somnambulism-this is generally considered to be one of the deepest stages of hypnosis and one of the tests of this condition is to cause the subject to open his eyes without awakening from the trance. he will be able to see quite clearly, to talk and to walk about while still remaining deeply hypnotized and will continue to carry out all the suggestions made to him by the hypnotist. sometimes it can be very difficult to tell wether a good somnambule is actually in a hypnotic state or not.


And, how do you tell exactly?


.= possibly the only criterion by which this may be judged is the extent to which the subject will respond to suggestion, and to produce complete amnesia for the events of the trance state.


Ah ha! Hmmm... Right, I'm certainly not going to deny that (ahem) "hypnotising" someone (mentally preparing them) before sticking needles in them is ineffective.

But that's all it is - mental preparation and mental rehearsal.

But complete amnesia of, say, a trip to the dentist during hypnosis is altogether a different thing entirely.

Truth be told, you seem to be very confused about hypnosis in general - and about the dividing line (or, chasm) between stage hypnosis and hypnotherapy, in particular.

All I can really say is that hypnosis is a relaxed state of focussed attention and nothing more.

~
HypnoPsi

[Burning Beard]

Now, returning to adverts for products, like cars, bikes, perfume, etc.,... One of the hardest things to get your head around is the fact that nobody actually buys products.

Instead, people buy happiness, security, popularity, bragging-rights, etc.,.

I don't have time to go into the psychology of it all - but, trust me when I say, its the first thing that advertisers learn when they get into the job.

Yup. I'm an advertising graphic designer and rely on that to get my ads to work.

[silver birch]

A book I am somewhat familiar with having trained with it many years ago - and one that is considerably more sensible than the Temple book you mention.




Which parts of the above are quotes, which edition are you using and which parts are your own thoughts?

Hypnosis is a relaxed state of focussed attention and nothing more. I disagree that people are actually 'more suggestible' under hypnosis (in the typical way that people tend to think the term means).

During hypnotherapy, people are merely just not thinking about the outside world or their worries and troubles as they learn to see themselves as a non-smoker or whatever.

Saying that patients are more 'suggestible' in hypnosis is very derogatory and erroneous.




No it bleeding well isn't. This is bunk - even though I'm very sure this one comes from Hartland's.





And, how do you tell exactly?





Ah ha! Hmmm... Right, I'm certainly not going to deny that (ahem) "hypnotising" someone (mentally preparing them) before sticking needles in them is ineffective.

But that's all it is - mental preparation and mental rehearsal.

But complete amnesia of, say, a trip to the dentist during hypnosis is altogether a different thing entirely.

Truth be told, you seem to be very confused about hypnosis in general - and about the dividing line (or, chasm) between stage hypnosis and hypnotherapy, in particular.

All I can really say is that hypnosis is a relaxed state of focussed attention and nothing more.

~
HypnoPsi
as you seem to be better informed than either of the 2 authors I mentioned I suggest you get your own book published to put your point of view over. Robert Temple's book is not a work of fiction. he gives his sources of his information, such as court cases and prominent researchers on the subject.
I've experienced hypnotherapy and deep trance to full somnambulism.
have you been hypnotized to somnambulism?

[silver birch]

Yes it is.




No you haven't. All stage hypnosis is play acting. What did the hypnotist *ask* you to do exactly? Put on a ballerinna's skirt and hop around the stage?

In the UK the standard practice is to have everyone in the audience clasp their hands together while the stage hypnotist has them imagine thier hands are getting tighter and tighter.

This is nothing but cramp of the muscles in the forearm - some members of a large enough audience will be affected and some won't - and that's all there is to it.

After all the "oohing" and "ahhing" a few people go up on the stage and the hypnotist hits them on the back of the neck or shoulder with the microphone and says "Sleep!" - then the show begins.

That's it - it's all show acting and nothing more.




Well, I'm certainly no stage hynotist - but the whole anti stage-hypnosis thing is all utter nonsense.

YOU CANNOT JUST COMMAND PEOPLE ON STAGE TO "SLEEP!" REPEATEDLY (WHILE STANDING UP) AND THEN TO ACTUALLY, REALLY, GENUINELY, THINK THEY'RE A CHICKEN OR THAT THEY'VE ONLY GOT FOUR FINGERS!

~
HypnoPsi
as you know the anti-stage thing is utter nonsense I suggest you write to the UK government and tell them the advice they have been given is wrong and you are correct and stage hypnosis should be unregulated as it's just harmless play- acting. also write to any other country where it is banned by law and tell them the same thing. good luck.

[666]

a good book to read is entitled- Open to suggestion, by Robert Temple (not to be cofused with a hypnotist of the same name0 I would to quote from it.
back cover-open to suggestion is the first book this century to convey the full range and potential of hypnosis, for good and for ill. it sweeps away the popular myths about the subject and presents the facts-many for the very first time. best-selling author Robert Temple, whose 10 years of investigstion have taken him all over the world to come to know the foremost researchers in the field, has collected together the evidence and countless case histories never before made available in book form.
chapter 1-a person capable of deep hypnotic trance can be made to forget his own name, not to feel flame burning him or needlles piercing his skin, can have his leg amputated without feeling it, can become unable to open his eyes, can become entirely paralysed all over his body, can see people who don't exist standing in front of him and carry on conversations with them in which he imagines their replies, can fail to see people who are standing in front of him, and even try to walk right through them, can have dreams dictated by the hypnotist, can watch films which are constructed by his own fantasy, can answer questions asked by imaginary people who don't exist, can regress to almost any age and see long forgotten childhood friends and imagine he is eating his birthday cake on his fourth birthday, speaking like a child, can recall forgotten or repressed information of great importance, can give information percieved subconsciously and which was never consciously held, can have no memory whatever of the trance induction or of any of the instructions given in trance by the hypnotist. can eat onions and think they are chocolates. can believe he is flying , floating or swimming or has become a fish or animal, can be raped without being to struggle and be made to forget that the rape has taken place.
I don't know how others feel but my little brain would find it easier to follow your posts if you used a little more White Space (http://desktoppub.about.com/cs/designprinciples/a/morewhitespace.htm). Thanks.

[Azrael 5]

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/03_03/lucasBBC2103_228x304.jpg Look into my eyes,3...2..1 you're gone! :D

[HypnoPsi]

as you seem to be better informed than either of the 2 authors I mentioned I suggest you get your own book published to put your point of view over.


I don't have to. In terms of scientific research papers being published on hypnosis, state theorists are almost on the verge of extinction.

The socio-cognitive model of hypnosis is very clearly in the ascendent.

Now, I'm not saying there aren't measurable changes in neural activity correlating with a hypnotherapy session (any more than I would say there aren't measurable changes in neural activity correlating with watching a movie or playing tennis) - but there is no such thing as hypnotically induced automatism.


Robert Temple's book is not a work of fiction.


I wouldn't be too sure about that...


he gives his sources of his information, such as court cases and prominent researchers on the subject.


Judges and courts don't do science - and what prominent researchers would claim that someone can be raped under hypnosis and made to forget it????

The whole idea is bunk.


I've experienced hypnotherapy and deep trance to full somnambulism.
have you been hypnotized to somnambulism?


I've only ever once sleepwalked as a child when I was ill and never had this occur with a patient.


Unless you mean the patient falls completely asleep, enters slow wave sleep at some point and then sleep walks, "deep trance to full somnambulisim" is a completely nonsensical statement.

You might as well ask me if I've experienced homeopathy or astrology....

If such a thing as "deep trance to full somnambulism" actually existed and ever occured, the patient sure as hell won't become convinced they're a chicken or that they only have four fingers just because someone says so. Neither will they instantly fall asleep standing up just because someone says "Sleep!".

~
HypnoPsi

[HypnoPsi]

as you know the anti-stage thing is utter nonsense I suggest you write to the UK government and tell them the advice they have been given is wrong


They already seem to be well aware of it. Many hypnotherapists would like registration (and protection of title even more) within the Health Professions Council - however, one main requirement for registration with the HPC is that a therapy "in and of itself" (as in, in it's inherent nature) can be harmful.

And the powers that be don't accept that with hypnosis. They see it as relaxation therapy and suggestion therapy and nothing more.

Consequently our only route is voluntary self-regulation like Psychologists did for decades (until the last year or so).


and you are correct and stage hypnosis should be unregulated as it's just harmless play- acting.


The Hypnotism Act is perfectly sensible; and it only applies to Stage hypnosis for entertainment.

Stage hypnosis can be pretty outrageous (like Penn and Teller or Roy Chubby Brown) and very often held in a location where alcohol is served.

Under 18's shouldn't be on stage stripping down to their underwear (or more) during any act and, barring genuine accidents, local councils should be able to refuse a licence to someone who endangers the health safety of their volunteers in their routines (something I'm sure is very, very, rare).


also write to any other country where it is banned by law and tell them the same thing. good luck.


Why would I be interested in what other countries do?

~
HypnoPsi

[silver birch]

I don't have to. In terms of scientific research papers being published on hypnosis, state theorists are almost on the verge of extinction.

The socio-cognitive model of hypnosis is very clearly in the ascendent.

Now, I'm not saying there aren't measurable changes in neural activity correlating with a hypnotherapy session (any more than I would say there aren't measurable changes in neural activity correlating with watching a movie or playing tennis) - but there is no such thing as hypnotically induced automatism.





I wouldn't be too sure about that...





Judges and courts don't do science - and what prominent researchers would claim that someone can be raped under hypnosis and made to forget it????

The whole idea is bunk.





I've only ever once sleepwalked as a child when I was ill and never had this occur with a patient.


Unless you mean the patient falls completely asleep, enters slow wave sleep at some point and then sleep walks, "deep trance to full somnambulisim" is a completely nonsensical statement.

You might as well ask me if I've experienced homeopathy or astrology....

If such a thing as "deep trance to full somnambulism" actually existed and ever occured, the patient sure as hell won't become convinced they're a chicken or that they only have four fingers just because someone says so. Neither will they instantly fall asleep standing up just because someone says "Sleep!".

~
HypnoPsi
this discussion has become pointless. you don't take any notice of my comments and just churn out your own bigoted mistaken views. I explained in a previous post the word somnambulism had 2 dictionary meanings, one refering to hypnosis. I did not ask if you were a sleep walker.
let's just say-you know all hypnotism is not real.
I know some hypnotism is real as I have discovered from personal experience of being hypnotized to full somnambulism and carrying out suggestions with post-hypnotic amnesia of my actions in the trance.
this is my final reply.

[HypnoPsi]

this discussion has become pointless. you don't take any notice of my comments

If you can provide links to scientific studies of your more extraordinary claims I will take them very seriously indeed.

If you can even explain, logically, how some of the more extraordinary claims are plausible I will also give you my considered opinion.

Instead, you're just typing from the sleeve of a couple of books.

and just churn out your own bigoted mistaken views.


I am no bigot. I have many years of experience in the field and have certainly read a fair amount of published scientific literature on hypnosis.

I explained in a previous post the word somnambulism had 2 dictionary meanings, one refering to hypnosis.


The dictionary describes and defines word usage - it's not meant to be a scientific definition.

Were you to sample a good number of research scientists and psychologists who have published on hypnosis or worked with it in their practice in recent years, my estimate is that the number of them who ascribe to the socio-cognitive model of hypnosis rather than the somnambulistic state theory would be in the high 90's (%).

I did not ask if you were a sleep walker. let's just say-you know all hypnotism is not real.


I have absolutely never seen any evidence for automatism - even in the "best" patients/clients who report they are regular sleepwalkers.

Even the vast majority of those published papers that actually lean towards state theory don't go anywhere near as far as automatism.

Furthermore, given what we do see in neural activity in the brain during hypnosis or guided meditation the results only tell us that the patients are listening to what we say and, if we happen to tell them to "imagine" something their visual system increases in activity, etc.,.

I know some hypnotism is real as I have discovered from personal experience of being hypnotized to full somnambulism and carrying out suggestions with post-hypnotic amnesia of my actions in the trance.
this is my final reply.

And my final reply is that we simply do not have any way to tell your "being hypnotized to full somnambulism" apart from someone acting... (Just like "mediums" act funny when they say they are "possessed", etc.,..)

Even surgery under hypnosis (very real, and much more common than people often realise) isn't evidence of automatism or whatever you insist upon calling it.

~
HypnoPsi

[JFrankA]

Just exactly like watching a movie....

Yes. It is something we all do everyday when concentrating. Driving, watching television, reading a book, studying something, we all do it everyday.

The only difference between that and what we both do is add suggestion.


How can you tell the 'genuinely hypnotised' from those 'play acting'?


How do you???


Yes, and people like to let their inhibitions down...


Just like with you. They trust you to help them, they tell you the problem, something usually very personal, so they let their inhibitions down with you too. You're point????


Stage hypnosis takes a few minutes at most to get the participants in place and ready to perform (depending on how dramatic the stage hypnotist is). A hypnotherapist will typically go through a progressive physical relaxation for about 25 minutes or so during the session.

So what, your method is different than mine? You haven't seen my show at all, you have no idea how much I do to relax and make suggestions to the audience. Case in point, Derren Brown's show to get people stuck in chairs was 25 minutes of relaxation and suggestion before he actually hypnotized people to be stuck in their chairs.

...by the way your last point of "Yes, and people like to let their inhibitions down" is contradiction to what this point is. In order to allow people to let their inhibitions down, doesn't one HAVE to relax a person first? One can't let their inhibitions down when they are not relaxed?

Maybe because it's in an entertainment setting, they are already relaxed. Maybe because they have a couple of drinks in them, (and not too tipsy) they are already relaxed. Maybe because they are among friends they are already relaxed. Or maybe I'm just better at relaxing people than you are! :)


Sorry, but I just don't see any similarity whatsoever between stage hypnosis and hypnotherapy (any more than I see a similarity between hypnotherapy and doing the Time Warp or dressing up for the Rocky Horror Show).

~
HypnoPsi

I'm sorry, hypnosis for therapy and hypnosis for entertainment are EXACTLY the same thing.

To use your own analogy, the difference between hypnotherapy and Stage hypnosis is like the difference between seeing a National Geographic movie and the Rocky Horror Picture Show. One is for education, one is for entrainment, both use cameras, camera tricks, music, pretty pictures, etc, etc, to get the education or entertainment across. In other words, it's a different movie, but it's still basically a movie.

[StanBearclaw]

Are these fine folks are hypnotized, or just play acting?

5lvU-DislkI

Where do you draw a distinction?

[silver birch]

have a look at this clip. I believe the girl is genuinely hypnotized although I cannot prove it, the only way to know for certain is to ask the girl herself.
the girl has been hypnotized to believe she is a kitten and it is quite possible when she comes out of the trance she will have no memory of what she has done.
this closely resembles my experience of being hypnotized. it was not a stage show, I was hypnotized alone in my bedroom, but there were people in another room of the house that I was led into in a trance.
it was like going to sleep and waking later with almost no memory of what I had done, except for a very small part which seemed like a dream.
it is not role-playing because I was not consciously aware of what I was doing.to the unconscious mind it is real, in the same way a dream is real at the time you are dreaming, only when you
awake and regain your conscious mind you realize it was a dream.
most of what I did in a trance I was told later.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8549B8v2X-4&feature=related

[silver birch]

I don't know why that link didn't work

[JFrankA]

Are these fine folks are hypnotized, or just play acting?

5lvU-DislkI

Where do you draw a distinction?

Excellent point, StandUpshaw. Another form of hypnotism. :)

Again, nothing "magical", nothing "supernatural", etc. Simply what I said before: relaxation, concentration, desire, confusion, belief, trust, suggestion. In this case, instead of "hypnotism", it's called "the real power of god" or some such nonsense.

[Senex]

Excellent point, StandUpshaw. Another form of hypnotism. :)

Again, nothing "magical", nothing "supernatural", etc. Simply what I said before: relaxation, concentration, desire, confusion, belief, trust, suggestion. In this case, instead of "hypnotism", it's called "the real power of god" or some such nonsense.

Yeah, yeah. The guy who does adult hyposis in my backyard hasn't invited me to see an actual performance. We are skeptical by nature just visiting here but this long time lag makes me believe you have no show. I bet I can pull off a hypnosis performance before you can.

Invite me to one of these nudie perfomances or accept my challenge. I can get a bunch of drunks together on short notice. I'll hypnotize their asses before they knew what happened. Where's the nudie girls?

[silver birch]

Are these fine folks are hypnotized, or just play acting?

5lvU-DislkI

Where do you draw a distinction?
that is not hypnotism. that is a lunatic asylum

[JFrankA]

Yeah, yeah. The guy who does adult hyposis in my backyard hasn't invited me to see an actual performance. We are skeptical by nature just visiting here but this long time lag makes me believe you have no show. I bet I can pull off a hypnosis performance before you can.

Invite me to one of these nudie perfomances or accept my challenge. I can get a bunch of drunks together on short notice. I'll hypnotize their asses before they knew what happened. Where's the nudie girls?

To be honest, I haven't done a show in several months. My real day job changed my hours. :(

[Senex]

To be honest, I haven't done a show in several months. My real day job changed my hours. :(

Hey, hey, hey... My intention wasn't to dispirit you -- it was to motivate you. I believe in your nudie girl perfomance. Day job be damned.

[silver birch]

http://xn-youtube-xq4f7mkh.alaa4u.com/8549B8v2X-4.html

[HypnoPsi]

Are these fine folks are hypnotized, or just play acting?

Where do you draw a distinction?


"The Benny Hinn Show"

Excellent video. Makes the point perfectly I think.

~
HypnoPsi

[HypnoPsi]

have a look at this clip. I believe the girl is genuinely hypnotized although I cannot prove it, the only way to know for certain is to ask the girl herself.

I can't get your link to work either... but I've seen this type of think many times so....

How does asking her prove anything "for certain"?

If we were to ask the people in the Benny Hinn clip provided by StanUpshaw if they felt the Holy Spirit what do you think the answer would be? How would be "know for certain" it was genuine?

the girl has been hypnotized to believe she is a kitten


Again, I've not seen the clip yet but I'll happily wager that all we "know for certain" is that the girl is acting like a kitten - the rest is pure projected belief.


and it is quite possible when she comes out of the trance she will have no memory of what she has done.


You can't think of any other reason at all why stage hypnosis show participants might want to claim amnesia for their time on stage?


this closely resembles my experience of being hypnotized. it was not a stage show, I was hypnotized alone in my bedroom, but there were people in another room of the house that I was led into in a trance.
it was like going to sleep and waking later with almost no memory of what I had done, except for a very small part which seemed like a dream.


And I've induced many patients to this level of hypnosis many times. I've also had many start snoring on me as well. (Usually more men than women in the latter case.)

"Forgetting" half the monotonously delivered suggestions in a hypnosis session or losing track of time (when you have no sensory input) is not unusual at all. And patients usually do remember the suggestions when I read the script back to them once the session is over

Most often though the real culprit is microsleep http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsleep

None of this however is automatism.


it is not role-playing because I was not consciously aware of what I was doing.to the unconscious mind it is real, in the same way a dream is real at the time you are dreaming, only when you awake and regain your conscious mind you realize it was a dream.
most of what I did in a trance I was told later.


Mediums claim the same thing about possession...

Do you see my point? Or are you just going to take the hump again?

~
HypnoPsi

[HypnoPsi]

that is not hypnotism. that is a lunatic asylum


Ah ha.... so one set of claims are to be taken on faith and the other set dismissed given the circumstances...

Seems to me the circumstances aren't that different though - a facilitator who either believes in X (or wants their volunteers to believe in X) and an audience that either believes in X (or wants to believe in X).

And everyone goes along with it...

Stage hypnosis is absolutely nothing like hypnotherapy - at all. And hypnotherapy is nothing more than counselling someone with their eyes shut (to imagine themselves a healthy non-smoker, or whatever).

Sure, some patients get a better result from this than others - one person may very well quit smoking after 1 session while another needs a few sessions in addition to patches or gum - and some patients certainly do seem to fall in and out of sleep during the session.

But none of this even remotely suggests any type of "You are a Kitten!" automatism.

~
HypnoPsi

[JFrankA]

Ah ha.... so one set of claims are to be taken on faith and the other set dismissed given the circumstances...

Seems to me the circumstances aren't that different though - a facilitator who either believes in X (or wants their volunteers to believe in X) and an audience that either believes in X (or wants to believe in X).

It's the same thing, again, just that the participant expects and wants different outcomes, counseling/help, entertainment, or the belief that they are touched by some sort of god.

Everyone is being driven by car going to different destinations.


And everyone goes along with it...

Of course they do. They want to go to that outcome. They go along with what you do.


Stage hypnosis is absolutely nothing like hypnotherapy - at all. And hypnotherapy is nothing more than counselling someone with their eyes shut (to imagine themselves a healthy non-smoker, or whatever).

The only difference is the reason why someone is being hypnotized. The hypnosis is exactly the same thing. Hypnosis is hypnosis, no matter what the final outcome is. Nothing magical about Hypnotherapy.


Sure, some patients get a better result from this than others - one person may very well quit smoking after 1 session while another needs a few sessions in addition to patches or gum - and some patients certainly do seem to fall in and out of sleep during the session.

Hell, I can say the practically same thing:

"Sure, I get some participants who have a better show than others - one person may very well have a post hypnotic command that lasts well after they get out the door, some need a little extra attention - and some participants do seem to fall in and out of sleep during the show."

Same thing, different goal.


But none of this even remotely suggests any type of "You are a Kitten!" automatism.

None of mine does, either.

But you DO suggest. That's what you do. That's what I do. What's the difference? Only one:

People come to you for therapy, people come to me for entertainment.

That's it. The hypnosis is exactly the same. We both relax the person, we both make the person concentrate, we both allow the person to lower her/his inhibitions, we both make suggestions, both during and post suggestion, sometimes the person takes the suggestion really well, sometimes they don't, and we both awaken the person at the end.

Hypnosis is hypnosis. Again, the only difference between you and me is that you are a trained therapist, I am a trained entertainer.

[silver birch]

"The Benny Hinn Show"

Excellent video. Makes the point perfectly I think.

~
HypnoPsi
it makes the point that there are idiots in this world very well indeed, however it has nothing whatever to do with genuine command hypnotism.
I would like to get away from the expression stage hypnotism because this creates an image of exhibitionists rushing up to the stage eagerly waiting for an opportunity to undress before an audience. it is used to distinguish hypnotherapy from command hypnotism.
so lets call it 'command hypnotism'. the subject can be 100 miles from a stage and only with the hypnotist.
first of all I don't believe in this as a matter of faith. I've been made to carry out suggestions in a trance, some of which I would not normally have done, looking like an 'awake' person with no memory of the events during the trance afterwards. I was not taking part in a stage show, it was in my own house and also other locations.
there are many other hypnotism videos on you tube. some are not genuine, some are. I don't no why my link did not work but it showed a japanese girl hypnotized to believe she is a kitten. if you google japanese hypnotism audaz you should find several including that one.
to go back to my experience, the bits I do remember, which is very little, the hypnotists voice was like a voice in my head, like say you are driving your car, someone runs in front, the word brake appears in your head. this is how I was compelled to obey the commands. because I did not have my conscious mind, or only part of it I could not reason and say I'm not doing that. what I did remember seemed like a dream afterwards, in fact I thought it was a dream until I was told what I had done. I still get recurring dreams of some of it years later.

[JFrankA]

it makes the point that there are idiots in this world very well indeed, however it has nothing whatever to do with genuine command hypnotism.
I would like to get away from the expression stage hypnotism because this creates an image of exhibitionists rushing up to the stage eagerly waiting for an opportunity to undress before an audience. it is used to distinguish hypnotherapy from command hypnotism.
so lets call it 'command hypnotism'. the subject can be 100 miles from a stage and only with the hypnotist.

I've done that too, over the phone and over the internet in live chat.

Don't try to "magicalize" it. Hypnotism is nothing more than relaxation, concentration, desire, belief, confusion (sometimes) and suggestion.

Nothing more.


first of all I don't believe in this as a matter of faith. I've been made to carry out suggestions in a trance, some of which I would not normally have done, looking like an 'awake' person with no memory of the events during the trance afterwards. I was not taking part in a stage show, it was in my own house and also other locations.
there are many other hypnotism videos on you tube. some are not genuine, some are. I don't no why my link did not work but it showed a japanese girl hypnotized to believe she is a kitten. if you google japanese hypnotism audaz you should find several including that one.

She wanted the hypnotism to work. Being a kitten thing didn't matter to her very much. She wanted the hypnotism to work more. No big deal, no mystery. You can call it what you will but it's all the same thing.

to go back to my experience, the bits I do remember, which is very little, the hypnotists voice was like a voice in my head, like say you are driving your car, someone runs in front, the word brake appears in your head. this is how I was compelled to obey the commands. because I did not have my conscious mind, or only part of it I could not reason and say I'm not doing that. what I did remember seemed like a dream afterwards, in fact I thought it was a dream until I was told what I had done. I still get recurring dreams of some of it years later.

It's called concentration and day dreaming. You can do that yourself without anyone else commanding you to do it.

[StanBearclaw]

it makes the point that there are idiots in this world very well indeed, however it has nothing whatever to do with genuine command hypnotism.
I would like to get away from the expression stage hypnotism because this creates an image of exhibitionists rushing up to the stage eagerly waiting for an opportunity to undress before an audience. it is used to distinguish hypnotherapy from command hypnotism.
so lets call it 'command hypnotism'. the subject can be 100 miles from a stage and only with the hypnotist.
first of all I don't believe in this as a matter of faith. I've been made to carry out suggestions in a trance, some of which I would not normally have done, looking like an 'awake' person with no memory of the events during the trance afterwards. I was not taking part in a stage show, it was in my own house and also other locations.
there are many other hypnotism videos on you tube. some are not genuine, some are. I don't no why my link did not work but it showed a japanese girl hypnotized to believe she is a kitten. if you google japanese hypnotism audaz you should find several including that one.
to go back to my experience, the bits I do remember, which is very little, the hypnotists voice was like a voice in my head, like say you are driving your car, someone runs in front, the word brake appears in your head. this is how I was compelled to obey the commands. because I did not have my conscious mind, or only part of it I could not reason and say I'm not doing that. what I did remember seemed like a dream afterwards, in fact I thought it was a dream until I was told what I had done. I still get recurring dreams of some of it years later.

I did search for "japanese hypnotism audaz" and found nothing but videos of what appears to be another new form of depraved Japanese porn. So first off, thank you! Secondly, if you actually experienced stuff like this you should really press charges. And third, and most importantly, those videos are obviously fake!

NSFW---> Link (http://www.audazdownload.com/index.php?main_page=index&sort=3d&language=en) <---NSFW

[HypnoPsi]

The hypnosis is exactly the same. We both relax the person, we both make the person concentrate, we both allow the person to lower her/his inhibitions, we both make suggestions, both during and post suggestion, sometimes the person takes the suggestion really well, sometimes they don't, and we both awaken the person at the end.

Hypnosis is hypnosis. Again, the only difference between you and me is that you are a trained therapist, I am a trained entertainer.


I don't see this at all - not with the stage shows I've seen... And I would be very surprised if your show involved a full progressive physical relaxation lasting about 30 minutes or so.

Instead, stage hypnosis involves, often - though not always, somethign like the hand clasp (cramp) and then everyone is pretty much on stage falling over when told to....


The only "induction" to speak of seems to be instructions (with a bit of showmanship thrown in) about what's going to happen during the show for both the participants and, in particular, the audience.

In contrast, clinical hypnosis involves inducing a very deeply relaxed state - the exact opposite of stage shows.

And once participants are relaxed you start to see things like this:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WF3-4BWW9VS-3&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1111087302&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=d3605b7514f948ba75a32978f96b71b8

Granted, some participants don't need as long an induction as 30 minutes to achieve this type of thing but partipating in a stage hypnosis show is like "acting" in a pantomime and nothing more.

~
HypnoPsi

[HypnoPsi]

it makes the point that there are idiots in this world very well indeed, however it has nothing whatever to do with genuine command hypnotism.
I would like to get away from the expression stage hypnotism because this creates an image of exhibitionists rushing up to the stage eagerly waiting for an opportunity to undress before an audience. it is used to distinguish hypnotherapy from command hypnotism.
so lets call it 'command hypnotism'.


So you're saying stage hypnosis is "genuine" 'command hypnotism'...?

Sounds like automatism to me.

But, note you've also said the only way to be sure about genuine hypnotism is to ask the subject! (As in your video of the girl who thinks she's a kitten in a stage hypnosis show.)


the subject can be 100 miles from a stage and only with the hypnotist.
first of all I don't believe in this as a matter of faith. I've been made to carry out suggestions in a trance, some of which I would not normally have done, looking like an 'awake' person with no memory of the events during the trance afterwards.


Some kind of brain scans that show a significant change while you "seem" to be awake would be evidence that something is going on. It still wouldn't be proof of automatism but it would move your argument forward.

And note - I mean EEG's, etc., of a subject walking around normally carrying out routines - like thinking they're a kitten - I am specifically not referring to the situation when someone is on the couch and very deeply relaxed.

Without that, why should I or anyone take your word for this?

I was not taking part in a stage show, it was in my own house and also other locations.
there are many other hypnotism videos on you tube. some are not genuine, some are.


How do you tell them apart?


I don't no why my link did not work but it showed a japanese girl hypnotized to believe she is a kitten. if you google japanese hypnotism audaz you should find several including that one.
to go back to my experience, the bits I do remember, which is very little, the hypnotists voice was like a voice in my head, like say you are driving your car, someone runs in front, the word brake appears in your head. this is how I was compelled to obey the commands.


And we only have your word for all of this....


because I did not have my conscious mind, or only part of it I could not reason and say I'm not doing that.


So you say, but there is apparently no way to tell this appart from someone who's just going along with the suggestions unless you ask them....

~
HypnoPsi

[HypnoPsi]

I did search for "japanese hypnotism audaz" and found nothing but videos of what appears to be another new form of depraved Japanese porn. So first off, thank you! Secondly, if you actually experienced stuff like this you should really press charges. And third, and most importantly, those videos are obviously fake!

NSFW---> Link (http://www.audazdownload.com/index.php?main_page=index&sort=3d&language=en) <---NSFW


I can't read Japanese but, yes, rather obviously, this is indeed all just fetish (fantasy role playing mind-control/domination) stuff - with paid actressess.

Now if stage hypnotists did that kind of stuff in their act they would need to be banned!

~
HypnoPsi

[silver birch]

I did search for "japanese hypnotism audaz" and found nothing but videos of what appears to be another new form of depraved Japanese porn. So first off, thank you! Secondly, if you actually experienced stuff like this you should really press charges. And third, and most importantly, those videos are obviously fake!

NSFW---> Link (http://www.audazdownload.com/index.php?main_page=index&sort=3d&language=en) <---NSFW
the particular clip I'm talking about is nothing like porn, although I'm sure many hypnotism porn videos are fake. the girl is fully clothed and in very good taste, acting like a kitten. you see teenage girls leaving pubs showing more leg than that. I will repeat what I said about someone faking a trance and that is someone in a trance looks so much like an 'awake' person only an expert can tell. there is a video of a tv show with hypnotist Tom Silver hypnotizing a girl. when the audience are asked-do you think the girl is hypnotized? only about 3 people raise their hands. Tom Silver says 'I take that as a complement', and does not look concerned.
sometime after I was hypnotized people approached me as if I knew what I had done which I didn't, so I must have looked normal to them.
a deeply hypnotized person can be commanded to act wide awake.

[StanBearclaw]

So where is this mysterious video you're talking about? Is it that hard to post a working link?

[StanBearclaw]

It's time to go meet the family, but I just wanted to get folks' opinion and experiences relating to the following blurb:

"Finally, research by psychologist Nicholas Spanos of Carleton University in Ontario shows that a failure to remember what transpired during the hypnosis session, or so-called posthypnotic amnesia, is not an intrinsic element of hypnosis and typically occurs only when subjects are told to expect it to occur."
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=is-hypnosis-a-distinct-form

[silver birch]

So you're saying stage hypnosis is "genuine" 'command hypnotism'...?

Sounds like automatism to me.

But, note you've also said the only way to be sure about genuine hypnotism is to ask the subject! (As in your video of the girl who thinks she's a kitten in a stage hypnosis show.)





Some kind of brain scans that show a significant change while you "seem" to be awake would be evidence that something is going on. It still wouldn't be proof of automatism but it would move your argument forward.

And note - I mean EEG's, etc., of a subject walking around normally carrying out routines - like thinking they're a kitten - I am specifically not referring to the situation when someone is on the couch and very deeply relaxed.

Without that, why should I or anyone take your word for this?




How do you tell them apart?





And we only have your word for all of this....





So you say, but there is apparently no way to tell this appart from someone who's just going along with the suggestions unless you ask them....

~
HypnoPsi
you only have my word for it so it is up to anyone if they believe it or not.
I'm putting my experiences on here to convince people hypnotism is real.
anyway, it is only the same as the theory given by John Hartland, and also other qualified people.
when I said the only sure way to know if someone is faking is after the session. when the question are you hypnotized? is put to a hypnotized person they will say no because that is what they believe. but there are people who after the hypnosis show admit they were faking all along.

[silver birch]

It's time to go meet the family, but I just wanted to get folks' opinion and experiences relating to the following blurb:

"Finally, research by psychologist Nicholas Spanos of Carleton University in Ontario shows that a failure to remember what transpired during the hypnosis session, or so-called posthypnotic amnesia, is not an intrinsic element of hypnosis and typically occurs only when subjects are told to expect it to occur."
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=is-hypnosis-a-distinct-form
you can find scientific studies to prove and disprove anything. its like a mordern form of witch-dctor.
take acohol, a study came out-in mderation its good for you, later- its completely bad for you, later again- in moderation its good for you.
with hypnosis it must depend on the subjects picked, only one in five people can achieve somnambulism.

[JFrankA]

It's time to go meet the family, but I just wanted to get folks' opinion and experiences relating to the following blurb:

"Finally, research by psychologist Nicholas Spanos of Carleton University in Ontario shows that a failure to remember what transpired during the hypnosis session, or so-called posthypnotic amnesia, is not an intrinsic element of hypnosis and typically occurs only when subjects are told to expect it to occur."
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=is-hypnosis-a-distinct-form

Hey, guess what StandUpShaw!! We are on the same page!!!!! :)

I completely agree with you on this. Contrary to what some people believe our memories are very flawed. It's actually easy to make someone forget an occurance.

Let me give you a for instance. I have a trick in which I show a person a card, have them memorize it, and then show the card to the audience. I give a five to ten minute explaination as to why the participant will completely forget her card. Sure enough, when she mentions her card, it's completely different than the card the audience is seeing.

Now, yes, there's a trick to that, but it she is so confused, wants to be remember the correct card so much (desire), believes the audience (belief), and follows the suggestion that she is wrong, that by the time she sits down, she remembers her card to be the one that was shown to the audience.

No, not hypnosis, but it IS amensia brought on by all the stuff that hypnosis is. :)

...geez, I'm giving away a lot of info I could make thousands on if I didn't have a conscious. :)

[silver birch]

So where is this mysterious video you're talking about? Is it that hard to post a working link?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBNcw35j_sI&feature=related

click on this and its the fifth down on the right

[JFrankA]

I don't see this at all - not with the stage shows I've seen... And I would be very surprised if your show involved a full progressive physical relaxation lasting about 30 minutes or so.

As I said, the relaxation started LONG before I get on to do the induction. People are at a party are usually relaxed, the ones who have a drink or two in them are relaxed, I do "tests" help further the relaxation, and the people who finally decide to come on stage are relaxed enough to do it.

I don't see your point in saying "I take thirty minutes!! You do it in seconds, it can't be real". It's as real as what you do. Period. I may seem to take a shorter period, but I have a pre-relaxed audience, if you will, for the most part.


Instead, stage hypnosis involves, often - though not always, somethign like the hand clasp (cramp) and then everyone is pretty much on stage falling over when told to....

In some cases, the relaxation and suggestion has been going on for a long time before the hypnotist says "sleep".

Also, in some of those cases confusion works extermely well, too. Confuse someone enough to slip in a suggestion (and I'm NOT talking NLP, that's hogwash, let's be clear on that), but someone confused enough will obey a suggestion because the mind doesn't like to be confused.


The only "induction" to speak of seems to be instructions (with a bit of showmanship thrown in) about what's going to happen during the show for both the participants and, in particular, the audience.

Well, don't you tell your patients what is going to happen and what you are going to do before they do it too? Isn't trying to get someone to quit smoking a suggestion as well?


In contrast, clinical hypnosis involves inducing a very deeply relaxed state - the exact opposite of stage shows.

You are incorrect. I've already pointed out that people at these shows are already relaxed. They want something to happen (like in clinical hypnosis) they trust me to achieve that something (like in clinical hypnosis), they are relaxed enough to come up on stage and try it (like in clinical hypnosis), and sometimes it works and sometimes it don't. (like in clinical hypnosis).
And once participants are relaxed you start to see things like this:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WF3-4BWW9VS-3&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1111087302&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=d3605b7514f948ba75a32978f96b71b8

Let's get someone who was put under during a stage show into the test. I bet it comes out the same.

That's because, in truth, you and I ARE DOING NOTHING SPECIAL. NOTHING. We are simply allowing people to concentrate enough, trust enough, desire enough, and yes, believe enough to be open to our suggestions.

The "trance state", and I put it in quotes because there's really no such thing, is something everybody does every day by themselves. Period.


Granted, some participants don't need as long an induction as 30 minutes to achieve this type of thing but partipating in a stage hypnosis show is like "acting" in a pantomime and nothing more.

~
HypnoPsi

Woah woah woah, so if "some participants don't need as long an induction as 30 minutes to achieve this type of thing" why do you insist that since you take 30 minutes you are doing something profoundly different than what I do? If that is the case, then prehaps I am better at inductions than you are. If that is the case, then have you ever taken in the possiblity that people are play acting with you too?

I'm sorry, we are both driving the same train. The only difference is that you are taking your participants to a different destination that I am.

[JFrankA]

Hey, hey, hey... My intention wasn't to dispirit you -- it was to motivate you. I believe in your nudie girl perfomance. Day job be damned.

:) I appreciate that. I haven't much business lately so I took the lousy hours until February because it pays more.

But here's what I'll do for you, Senex. Get a few close friends together and I'll do a free show for you guys. If you're up for it, pm me and I'll give you more details. :)

[Zalbik]

They're stage struck.

~
HypnoPsi

I think much of the argument we are having here is due to a lack of definition of terms. I've been "stage hypnotized" a total of once in my life. During this time I did things that my friends and my spouse considered very peculiar given my introverted personality. Typical stuff, behaving like a child, imagining that you are a hunter of some peculiar animal (coyote-frogs in my case), walking through the audience and telling people's fortunes, etc.

Now all that being said, the experience was not at all as if I was "under the control" of the hypnotist, it was more like everything he said sounded like a really good idea. It was a little like being drunk, but without the same foggy memory that comes after being drunk.

Mostly what I found was that I was extremely relaxed. Pretty much all worries and insecurities seemed to disappear, so why the heck not do what the hypnotist suggested?

Was this "playing along" or "stage struck"? I wouldn't call it that. In a fully wakeful state you would have to give me a pretty good incentive to perform in front of an audience. Was it the same experience I would get under hypnotherapy? I doubt it, but I do suspect it is something similar.

[StanBearclaw]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBNcw35j_sI&feature=related

click on this and its the fifth down on the right

Ok, is this the one you're talking about?

8S49B8v2X-4

I ran the text through a translator:

アウダースの催眠シリーズ　北川絵美ちゃんです
Kitagawa Emi-chan is a series of hypnotic Audasu

I searched on the site that was linked on the YouTube page and found the full video (http://www.audazdownload.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=282) (NSFW). And guess what...Emi Kitagawa is a porn star! (http://www.8jav.com/files/lists/d5348.jpg) (NSFW)
So I'm not entirely sure what your point about all of this is, but your evidence is lacking. Personally, I'm more likely to listen scientists witch doctors, rather than the fetish porn industry.

[bef]

Well, he claims to be a performer, so if he's faking that would mean............




OMG! Really is psychic!!!! :jaw-dropp

Oh crap. Now that his cover is blown, Derren Brown for $1m challenge. ;)

[silver birch]

Ok, is this the one you're talking about?

8S49B8v2X-4

I ran the text through a translator:

アウダースの催眠シリーズ　北川絵美ちゃんです
Kitagawa Emi-chan is a series of hypnotic Audasu

I searched on the site that was linked on the YouTube page and found the full video (http://www.audazdownload.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=282) (NSFW). And guess what...Emi Kitagawa is a porn star! (http://www.8jav.com/files/lists/d5348.jpg) (NSFW)
So I'm not entirely sure what your point about all of this is, but your evidence is lacking. Personally, I'm more likely to listen scientists witch doctors, rather than the fetish porn industry.
my point is-
I was seaching for a video of genuine hypnotism that was not a stage show of exhibitionists. if you call that a porn video you must be prudish, they had much stronger stuff in victorian england. you can't even see her tits. anyway, because she is a porn star with stigma that carries does not prove she cannot be hypnotized or is not hypnotized in that video.

[silver birch]

Ok, is this the one you're talking about?

8S49B8v2X-4

I ran the text through a translator:

アウダースの催眠シリーズ　北川絵美ちゃんです
Kitagawa Emi-chan is a series of hypnotic Audasu

I searched on the site that was linked on the YouTube page and found the full video (http://www.audazdownload.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=282) (NSFW). And guess what...Emi Kitagawa is a porn star! (http://www.8jav.com/files/lists/d5348.jpg) (NSFW)
So I'm not entirely sure what your point about all of this is, but your evidence is lacking. Personally, I'm more likely to listen scientists witch doctors, rather than the fetish porn industry.

I listen to John Hartland B.Sc.,M.B.,ChB.,M.R.C.S.,L.R.C.P.
consulting psychiatrist,formerly visiting psychiatrist hallam hospital west bromwich, president of the british society of medical and dental hypnosis, life president of the midlands branch of the british society for medical and dental hypnosis, honorary fellow of the american society of clinical hypnosis, fellow of the international society for clinical and experimental hypnosis, editor of the british journal of clinical hypnosis.
this is because my experience of being hypnotized comply with his descriptions.
click here for the 5 star reviews of his work
http://www.amazon.com/Hartlands-Medical-Hypnosis-Michael/product-reviews/0443072175/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_1

[silver birch]

another good book is 'Medical and dental hypnosis' by John Hartland.
page 13-hypnosis is essentialy a particular state of mind which is usually induced in one person by another. it is a state of mind in which suggestions are not only more readily accepted than in the waking state, but are also acted upon much more powerfully than would be possible under normal conditions. in other words, the hypnotic state is always accompanied by an increase in the suggestability of the subject.
in the hypnotic state the power of criticism is either fully or partialy suppresed.
to understand how this occurs we must understand the concept of the unconscious mind. this postulates that in everyone there is a portion of the mind that is constantly influencing our thoughts and behaviour, the existance of which we are normally unaware. the unconscious mind is a much greater part of the mind and normally we are quite unaware of its existance. it is the seat of all our memories, all our past experiences, and all of that we have learned.under certain circumstances it can also undertake most of the functions of the conscious mind, with one important exception-the power of criticism.
page 150- all kinds of sense delusions can be produced in deep hypnosic states many of which are so remarkable that anyone seeing them for the first time may well be excused for doubting the reality of the phenomana.in everyday life we all depend so completely upon our sense organs that it seems incredible that a few words or phrases can suceed in placing the hypnotic subject in entirely different surroundings. but before many phenomena suchb as these can be elicited, a very deep or even somnambulistic trance is usually essential.
somnambulism-this is generally considered to be one of the deepest stages of hypnosis and one of the tests of this condition is to cause the subject to open his eyes without awakening from the trance. he will be able to see quite clearly, to talk and to walk about while still remaining deeply hypnotized and will continue to carry out all the suggestions made to him by the hypnotist. sometimes it can be very difficult to tell wether a good somnambule is actually in a hypnotic state or not. possibly the only criterion by which this may be judged is the extent to which the subject will respond to suggestion, and to produce complete amnesia for the events of the trance state.

I've repeated this in case you didn't read it properly the first time.

[HypnoPsi]

I listen to John Hartland


Hartland's Medical and Dental Hypnosis is the primary source textbook for most courses in hypnotherapy in the UK.

It has been constantly updated with new information since it was first published in 1966.

It must be remembered that Hartland published his book with very little of the knowledge that we have today - and when times were more permitting of purely anecdotal evidence.

Recent editions have reflected this (though they have not entriely removed all the anecdotal claims) and, indeed, are very different from the earlier editions.

To my understanding, each new edition of Hartland's textbook is reviewed every 2-3 years by a panel of experts in the field.

~
HypnoPsi

[silver birch]

Hartland's Medical and Dental Hypnosis is the primary source textbook for most courses in hypnotherapy in the UK.

It has been constantly updated with new information since it was first published in 1966.

It must be remembered that Hartland published his book with very little of the knowledge that we have today - and when times were more permitting of purely anecdotal evidence.

Recent editions have reflected this (though they have not entriely removed all the anecdotal claims) and, indeed, are very different from the earlier editions.

To my understanding, each new edition of Hartland's textbook is reviewed every 2-3 years by a panel of experts in the field.

~
HypnoPsi

the extract I quoted is not anecdotal and perhaps you would care to show me where a panel of experts have rubbished it.

[silver birch]

Hartland's Medical and Dental Hypnosis is the primary source textbook for most courses in hypnotherapy in the UK.

It has been constantly updated with new information since it was first published in 1966.

It must be remembered that Hartland published his book with very little of the knowledge that we have today - and when times were more permitting of purely anecdotal evidence.

Recent editions have reflected this (though they have not entriely removed all the anecdotal claims) and, indeed, are very different from the earlier editions.

To my understanding, each new edition of Hartland's textbook is reviewed every 2-3 years by a panel of experts in the field.

~
HypnoPsi

who decides if they are experts? have they ever been hypnotized? if not you may as well say someone is an expert wine-taster but does not drink wine.
after being hypnotized many times myself I'm a panel of one expert and I believe that extract is still true today.

[Toke]

I did search for "japanese hypnotism audaz" and found nothing but videos of what appears to be another new form of depraved Japanese porn. So first off, thank you! Secondly, if you actually experienced stuff like this you should really press charges. And third, and most importantly, those videos are obviously fake!

NSFW---> Link (http://www.audazdownload.com/index.php?main_page=index&sort=3d&language=en) <---NSFW

I have been looking too, and found one called "sexandsubmission 2009-11-20 Tia Ling-John Henry (7510)" :D
It is not Japanese although she looks a bit Asian.

The therapist get far more effect than just to get her to quit smoking.

[silver birch]

It's time to go meet the family, but I just wanted to get folks' opinion and experiences relating to the following blurb:

"Finally, research by psychologist Nicholas Spanos of Carleton University in Ontario shows that a failure to remember what transpired during the hypnosis session, or so-called posthypnotic amnesia, is not an intrinsic element of hypnosis and typically occurs only when subjects are told to expect it to occur."
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=is-hypnosis-a-distinct-form

a hypnotist should hypnotize a scientist,preferably an attractive female one, and tell her she's acting in a porn film.

[silver birch]

Hartland's Medical and Dental Hypnosis is the primary source textbook for most courses in hypnotherapy in the UK.

It has been constantly updated with new information since it was first published in 1966.

It must be remembered that Hartland published his book with very little of the knowledge that we have today - and when times were more permitting of purely anecdotal evidence.

Recent editions have reflected this (though they have not entriely removed all the anecdotal claims) and, indeed, are very different from the earlier editions.

To my understanding, each new edition of Hartland's textbook is reviewed every 2-3 years by a panel of experts in the field.

~
HypnoPsi
my copy of Hartland was printed in 1984 and the piece I quoted was true then and is obviously still true today. until John Hartland himself tells me it is no longer true (which is unlikely because he died in 1977) I shall continue to believe it, and from my experience of being hypnotized I advise anybody to do likewise.

[silver birch]

If it works why don't dentists use it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xgu6vk3_ByE

[JFrankA]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xgu6vk3_ByE

because it doesn't work with everyone.

Drugs do.

[Senex]

:) I appreciate that. I haven't much business lately so I took the lousy hours until February because it pays more.

But here's what I'll do for you, Senex. Get a few close friends together and I'll do a free show for you guys. If you're up for it, pm me and I'll give you more details. :)

What I would like to do is to meet you in Hartford some evening and we can test conventional NLP in a real world environment. We either lick whipped cream off a couple of models at the Hilton before the end of the night or we can put this NLP stuff to bed once and for all.

[Verdruc]

About Derren Brown's act, I recall that Franz Anton Mesmer did some remarkably similar things in some of his "exhibitions" of the power of Animal Magnetism. The big difference was that while Mesmer convinced his subjects to do things they wouldn't normally do on a stage, he practiced no form of induction whatsoever, and probably no conscious suggestion. In my opinion, stage hypnosis is simply authority and peer pressure, perhaps with some other social aspects involved. So, no, I don't believe Derren Brown was "faking". I believe he simply trusted in the subject to do what he told him, previously suggested or not.