Penn Jillette's "Good Man"

[Towlie]

This YouTube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JHS8adO3hM) is a little irritating because Penn Jillette digresses a lot, plus he erroneously states that Psalms is in the New Testament, but he does eventually come around to his point. The first 1:30 amounts to little more than the fact that a nice man came up to talk to him, so you can skip over that if you wish.

(Embedding of the video is disabled at YouTube so please click the link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JHS8adO3hM) to watch it there.)

Jillette argues here that if a man does what's right according to his religious beliefs, he's a "good man", even though his religious beliefs are false. But isn't that what terrorists do? Isn't that what the Crusades, Inquisitions, and most wars were about?

Yes, what the man in Jillette's story did was harmless. He only gave Jillette a pocket Bible, but is that enough to make him worthy of admiration, as opposed to the many people who are led by the same beliefs to do harm? Isn't the man contributing to that harm by actively spreading his beliefs?

I don't agree with Penn Jillette here. Nobody deserves to be called good just because he does what his mistaken religious beliefs tell him are good deeds.

What do you think?

[Hux]

I am not persuaded that Mohamed Atta deserved to be called anything other than a ****. I am sure, however, he thought he was doing good by his own, perverted and psychotic, reasoning.

[Hugo]

link doesn't work any more (there are others on YT but I can't post links), it is a rather old clip too, I remember seeing it quite a while ago
I think the part where he explains his views on proselytizing are key to understanding this video, in this man's view it was a very good thing to do, likewise from Mohamet Atta's viewpoint he was doing an ultimate good, the inquisitors were doing good ...
I don't agree with Penn but I can sort of understand where he's coming from

[Egg]

Jillette argues here that if a man does what's right according to his religious beliefs, he's a "good man", even though his religious beliefs are false. But isn't that what terrorists do? Isn't that what the Crusades, Inquisitions, and most wars were about?

Yes, what the man in Jillette's story did was harmless. He only gave Jillette a pocket Bible, but is that enough to make him worthy of admiration, as opposed to the many people who are led by the same beliefs to do harm? Isn't the man contributing to that harm by actively spreading his beliefs?

I don't agree with Penn Jillette here. Nobody deserves to be called good just because he does what his mistaken religious beliefs tell him are good deeds.

What do you think?
Hi Towlie
Firstly, I didn't get the impression that was what Penn was saying. He was talking about that particular man he met and how he saw the good intentions behind the man's proselytising and extended that to ponder the same for other religious folk and their proselytising.

When it comes to the various harms done for religious reasons (which I believe you overstate - as I understand it, by a fairly large margin, most wars were not religious) I think much of that depends on what kind of god you believe in. Some believe in a small god who needs protecting, some believe in an angry god who uses his followers to punish for him. Fortunately most religious folk appear to believe in a benevolent god, promoting peace and love.

Are those who tell others about their god of love contributing to the harm done by those with a different view of their god? Religion is a little like patriotism in how it inspires people and if your country is generally a force for good in the world, then, largely, so will be your patriotism. It seems to me a bit like asking "did encouraging patriotism for the USA early in the last century contribute to the harms done by those who were patriotic to Nazi Germany?"

Sure, if we allow or encourage religion generally, we encourage the bad with the good, just as if we encourage scientific research in general, we get both better ways to heal people and better ways to kill people.

What I would take from Penn's thoughts would be a message of not allowing your prejudices and generalisations to prevent you seeing the good intentions behind people's actions.

[ORUgrad]

I saw that clip recently too. I am an admirer of Penn. He is far more articulate than Teller! :) He is a bit obsessed with the "f" word but that is ok. This clip however, creeped me out for some reason. Not only his reaction visibly, but the idea that this guy was "good" simply because he was sincere. Sincerity does not equate to goodness. But that is just me. Maybe I missed his bigger point as he looked rather mesmerized which was distracting.

[Towlie]

link doesn't work any more...It still works for me. Is anyone else having trouble with it?

[Skeptic Guy]

I watched it. I don't know how he came to the belief that this guy was a "really, really nice guy" from a five-minute conversation with him in the lobby of his show or what the relevance of it would be, but whatever. I wonder how nice of guy Atta would have seemed if he met him at the Rio?

[justcharlie09]

This YouTube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JHS8adO3hM) is a little irritating because Penn Jillette digresses a lot, plus he erroneously states that Psalms is in the New Testament, but he does eventually come around to his point. The first 1:30 amounts to little more than the fact that a nice man came up to talk to him, so you can skip over that if you wish.

(Embedding of the video is disabled at YouTube so please click the link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JHS8adO3hM) to watch it there.)

Jillette argues here that if a man does what's right according to his religious beliefs, he's a "good man", even though his religious beliefs are false. But isn't that what terrorists do? Isn't that what the Crusades, Inquisitions, and most wars were about?

Yes, what the man in Jillette's story did was harmless. He only gave Jillette a pocket Bible, but is that enough to make him worthy of admiration, as opposed to the many people who are led by the same beliefs to do harm? Isn't the man contributing to that harm by actively spreading his beliefs?

I don't agree with Penn Jillette here. Nobody deserves to be called good just because he does what his mistaken religious beliefs tell him are good deeds.

What do you think?

You know, I've always enjoyed Penn & Teller as an act. Some of the ******** episodes were pretty enjoyable, too, and I've been following his vlog on Crackle.

The more he talks the more I kind of scratch my head and say :confused:

Proselytizing is a major beef between me and evangelicals. My attitude is, if you want to "show off" your faith, the best way to do it is through kind, moral, and loving behavior. If in the course of spreading good in the world someone asks you about religion THEN you give credit to God and discuss your beliefs. Or, if you're in a forum where everyone is interested in talking about it.

Running around tossing Bibles, bombs, pamphlets, crosses, insults, propaganda, or whatever else they think they should in the name of their faith... is the absolute opposite of what being a good man or woman seems to be.

I lost a LOT of respect for Penn when he started running around claiming Glenn Beck as a friend. :(

Still like their magic act, and that 2012 ******** episode was tons of fun.

[Beth]

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JHS8adO3hM] Nobody deserves to be called good just because he does what his mistaken religious beliefs tell him are good deeds.

What do you think?

I think "good" is an inherently subjective judgment. How do you define "good" apart from your beliefs about right and wrong, whether those beliefs are mistaken or otherwise?

[Silly Green Monkey]

In Penn's defense, most little NT bibles that get handed out include Psalms and Proverbs.

[ORUgrad]

It is hard to be completely free of bull s*** even if you have a show called that!

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Yep, I see what Penn is saying. If you truly believed that someone was going to go to hell after they died, of course you'd feel it was your responsibility to convert them (or at least try to say something to them.)

Like Penn, I'd be touched by that kind of concern, too. Even if it was for a nonexistent concern.

The same way, for instance, that I'd be touched if someone ran screaming and crying to my home after he/she erroneously thought a gas pipe had exploded and killed me, when I was in fact completely fine and it was all a big mistake.

Edit: I have met people who instantly struck me as amazingly good people. Right off the bat, they make that kind of impression. So I also see what Penn means there.

[Hugo]

It still works for me. Is anyone else having trouble with it?

It is because I'm outside of the US:

"This video is not available in your country due to copyright restrictions."

[HansMustermann]

EMM, then I want to sell you these handy-dandy lessons about protecting yourself from zombies. Just 'cause, you know, I'm concerned that you might end up eaten by zombies sometimes in the future.

I hope you'll agree that it being sincere concern doesn't make it any less bloody stupid.

[Beerina]

Jillette argues here that if a man does what's right according to his religious beliefs, he's a "good man", even though his religious beliefs are false.

...

Yes, what the man in Jillette's story did was harmless. He only gave Jillette a pocket Bible, but is that enough to make him worthy of admiration, as opposed to the many people who are led by the same beliefs to do harm? Isn't the man contributing to that harm by actively spreading his beliefs?

I'm surprised Jillette doesn't fly off the handle here about "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions", to say nothing of being a "useful idiot", at best.

But there is a place for not offending the common yokels, so to speak, who believe religion on the surface of it, as-is. But, as you point out, the same could be said for many terrorists.