As an atheist, should I be working for a "Religion"?

[fromdownunder]

For a few years after I retired, I got bored from time to time. The internet, being an Admin on another Board, my stamp collection. occasional visits from the kids, too many hospital and outpatient visits, and 100 TV channels do not a life make.

About 15 months ago, I decided I needed to get my mind and body somewhat functional again, and felt that helping my local community was the best option.

So, I now work 15 hours per week (excluding travel) for an emergency food and material help relief centre. It is religious based (The Australian Uniting Church) but does not promote religion in any way, shape or form to our clients. There is sometimes a non denominational prayer some mornings - one morning coincidentally (or was it synchrosity) the day before the AFL Grand Final, I was asked to say something. I asked everyone to hold hands (as is the practice) and just said "Go Cats!" (as it happened Geelong did win the Australian Football League Grand Final the next day - maybe there is a Cat God). Everybody else just laughed. We help people, we do not preach at all.

But, to the point, as an atheist, I have no problem at all in working for a God based (partly Government, but mostly privately Church funded) relief group which supports the local community, does not preach "God" at all in the help process, and simply tries to feed down and out people, gives them clothes and furniture and helps pay bills (in some extreme cases).

Regarding this type of support, I have no problem, as an atheist, for working within the community, and providing some real help.

I simply would like other peoples opinions and thoughts on what I have posted above, as atheists, theists, witches, whatever...

Norm

[Lisa Simpson]

As long as they are NOT requiring a sermon with the soup, I would not have a problem with it. Last week, some Boy Scouts came by and said they were collecting food. In general, I don't support the Boy Scouts. However, they were collecting food for the Second Harvest Food Bank. So I gave them some cans of food. Everybody has a different "line in the sand".

ETA: Thanks, SezMe.

[six7s]

As another atheist, I say go for it - as long as it continues to let you live and act as you see fit, i.e. without compromising your principles

Its something that YOU enjoy... AND you're actively helping your neighbours... materially...

Who knows, maybe one day you'll help one of them 'intellectually', too if/when they think 'hey that fromdownunder dude... he's one hoopy frood, despite - maybe because of - his lack of theism'

:)

[The Drain]

I think it is very honourable what you are doing. Turn it around: Would someone who was religous have a problem working for a secular relief agency like Oxfam or Meals on Wheels?

I must admit I do have a certain interest in your question as I am in a very similar position to you.

My (Christian) employers work against poverty overseas but with a real roll-up-your-sleeves and let's deal with the problem attitude - and no proselytising whatsoever. I don't advertise my atheism. I don't think my colleagues know and I don't want them to feel embarrassed.

If there are prayers before a meeting I will sit quietly; that's just good manners really.

But I have been required to give sermons in a variety of churches over the years, talking about our work in the developing world (hence why I'm worried my colleagues would feel embarrassed for having asked me to do this) - and I have often wondered what would happen if I spoke out loud from the pulpit and said what I really think!

I am however desperately concerned about other people's feelings and I would hate to upset anyone. It wouldn't achieve anything.

[A.A. Alfie]

Fromdownunder,

I do similar service for another group that is "God" based, yet I am basically an agnostic. Whilst it may seem a misnomer - even a contradiction to some no doubt - I derive a great deal of spiritual satisfaction and balance from the work I do with and for others.

So, keep doing it, it is good for you, it is good for the church (they dont mind) and it is fantastic for those less priveleged.

[lionking]

My son, also an atheist, worked for a catholic high school, and had to go to mass at the start of each term, which he did without complaint or compromise. I have a business relationship with the Salvation Army, which gives me no cause for concern.

Besides that, good on you for giving your time to charity. You have my respect.

[A.A. Alfie]

I think it is very honourable what you are doing. Turn it around: Would someone who was religous have a problem working for a secular relief agency like Oxfam or Meals on Wheels?

I must admit I do have a certain interest in your question as I am in a very similar position to you.

My (Christian) employers work against poverty overseas but with a real roll-up-your-sleeves and let's deal with the problem attitude - and no proselytising whatsoever. I don't advertise my atheism. I don't think my colleagues know and I don't want them to feel embarrassed.

If there are prayers before a meeting I will sit quietly; that's just good manners really.

But I have been required to give sermons in a variety of churches over the years, talking about our work in the developing world (hence why I'm worried my colleagues would feel embarrassed for having asked me to do this) - and I have often wondered what would happen if I spoke out loud from the pulpit and said what I really think!

I am however desperately concerned about other people's feelings and I would hate to upset anyone. It wouldn't achieve anything.

Wonderfully said.
It's a pity more atheists don't have the same respect for others and their beliefs.

[justcharlie09]

For a few years after I retired, I got bored from time to time. The internet, being an Admin on another Board, my stamp collection. occasional visits from the kids, too many hospital and outpatient visits, and 100 TV channels do not a life make.

About 15 months ago, I decided I needed to get my mind and body somewhat functional again, and felt that helping my local community was the best option.

So, I now work 15 hours per week (excluding travel) for an emergency food and material help relief centre. It is religious based (The Australian Uniting Church) but does not promote religion in any way, shape or form to our clients. There is sometimes a non denominational prayer some mornings - one morning coincidentally (or was it synchrosity) the day before the AFL Grand Final, I was asked to say something. I asked everyone to hold hands (as is the practice) and just said "Go Cats!" (as it happened Geelong did win the Australian Football League Grand Final the next day - maybe there is a Cat God). Everybody else just laughed. We help people, we do not preach at all.

But, to the point, as an atheist, I have no problem at all in working for a God based (partly Government, but mostly privately Church funded) relief group which supports the local community, does not preach "God" at all in the help process, and simply tries to feed down and out people, gives them clothes and furniture and helps pay bills (in some extreme cases).

Regarding this type of support, I have no problem, as an atheist, for working within the community, and providing some real help.

I simply would like other peoples opinions and thoughts on what I have posted above, as atheists, theists, witches, whatever...

Norm

I agree with other posters who say "as long as there's no sermon w/ the soup". Personally, as a theist, I prefer to work with neutral groups like the Red Cross and other non-religious charities in general. Maybe this is weird, but after my misadventures with Catholicism I appreciate ANY place where I feel able to help people w/o worry of conflict with my own religiously neutral feelings about humanitarian work.

Put it this way, you won't see me in a Catholic soup kitchen doling out food because of the way I feel toward the organization (not the people).

[six7s]

Wonderfully said.
It's a pity more atheists don't have the same respect for others and their beliefs.Their beliefs are NOT an issue when it comes to respect

As far as christians, jews, muslims go:
Their beliefs are based on irrational and despicable acts of stupidity.
End of story.

On a complete different issue:
They are people.
If they consciously refrain from proselytising, they do no harm... other than - perhaps - promote the absurd idea that good works equate with woo.
End of story

[Fnord]

Are you getting paid?

Anything worth doing well is worth being paid well to do.

Otherwise, I see no problem with an Atheist working for religionist organization.

[Hindmost]

I can never see a problem with working for any group that does good things...whether is has a religious affiliation or not. I just separate the religious part internally.

I have been contributing to Habitat for Humanity for quite a few years and could see working there in the future during retirement.

glenn

[gentlehorse]

Regarding this type of support, I have no problem, as an atheist, for working within the community, and providing some real help.

I simply would like other peoples opinions and thoughts on what I have posted above, as atheists, theists, witches, whatever...

Norm

Working for the community? Providing real help to folk in need? No problem here! The world could use a lot more like you, regardless of whether you believe in invisible beings.

[A.A. Alfie]

.....that's just good manners really.


.... I would hate to upset anyone. It wouldn't achieve anything.

Their beliefs are NOT an issue when it comes to respect

As far as christians, jews, muslims go:
Their beliefs are based on irrational and despicable acts of stupidity.
End of story.

On a complete different issue:
They are people.
If they consciously refrain from proselytising, they do no harm... other than - perhaps - promote the absurd idea that good works equate with woo.
End of story


Some simply just lack the good manners that others do have.

[fromdownunder]

Are you getting paid?

No. I am paying my own public transport to the centre. No payment or $ for me whatsoever.

Norm

[fromdownunder]

As long as they are requiring a sermon with the soup, I would not have a problem with it. Last week, some Boy Scouts came by and said they were collecting food. In general, I don't support the Boy Scouts. However, they were collecting food for the Second Harvest Food Bank. So I gave them some cans of food. Everybody has a different "line in the sand".

The support service which I support requires norhing at all. I included (then edited out from my original post) that the (local) Salvation Army will have a Christmas Day lunch but it is limited to adults only, and will require anybody attending to subject themself to a two hour church service first. I am not impressed with the local Salvo's

They do not appear to give a flying [Rule 12?] about kids who also need to eat.

[fromdownunder]

I have read and noted the other responses. Thanks for replying, and thanks for accepting that a non theist may support local communities without being a theist, I am now awaiting theist replies, but not holding my breath.

Thanks again.

Norm

[six7s]

But I have been required to give sermons in a variety of churches over the years, talking about our work in the developing world (hence why I'm worried my colleagues would feel embarrassed for having asked me to do this) - and I have often wondered what would happen if I spoke out loud from the pulpit and said what I really think!

I am however desperately concerned about other people's feelings and I would hate to upset anyone. It wouldn't achieve anything.You don't have to upset anyone... there's a time and a place to be thought-provoking and, for an atheist, a pulpit ain't likely to satisfy either criteria...

Instead, you can raise and/or celebrate awareness that 'us atheists' ain't all baby-chomping subversive nihilistic revolutionaries hell bent on the elimination of the family and society as we know it...

Anyhoo...

Your unlikely to annoy anyone (other than die-hard wankers*) with phrases like 'Today, I'd like us all to to celebrate and strenghten the harmony and vibrancy of diversity, which we can see right here today as we are gathered in unison; not despite - but because of - our various skills, passions and beliefs'



--------
* Those who are most easily offended, should be. Often


;)

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I volunteer every Wednesday at an organization called God's Love We Deliver. Besides the name, there is nothing religious about it. Though it was once housed in a church and I believe the founders were at least partially influenced by their religious beliefs.

It's kinda funny, though, that an agnostic is delivering God's love. :D

[H3LL]

My only concern (with any charity) would be how they divy-up the money they receive.

Rather too many religion based 'charities' consider themselves the main charity and not the people they are pretending to help.

This is not limited to religious charities, of course, but always check what the split is between 'administration' and charity work.

[Dancing David]

For a few years after I retired, I got bored from time to time. The internet, being an Admin on another Board, my stamp collection. occasional visits from the kids, too many hospital and outpatient visits, and 100 TV channels do not a life make.

About 15 months ago, I decided I needed to get my mind and body somewhat functional again, and felt that helping my local community was the best option.

So, I now work 15 hours per week (excluding travel) for an emergency food and material help relief centre. It is religious based (The Australian Uniting Church) but does not promote religion in any way, shape or form to our clients. There is sometimes a non denominational prayer some mornings - one morning coincidentally (or was it synchrosity) the day before the AFL Grand Final, I was asked to say something. I asked everyone to hold hands (as is the practice) and just said "Go Cats!" (as it happened Geelong did win the Australian Football League Grand Final the next day - maybe there is a Cat God). Everybody else just laughed. We help people, we do not preach at all.

But, to the point, as an atheist, I have no problem at all in working for a God based (partly Government, but mostly privately Church funded) relief group which supports the local community, does not preach "God" at all in the help process, and simply tries to feed down and out people, gives them clothes and furniture and helps pay bills (in some extreme cases).

Regarding this type of support, I have no problem, as an atheist, for working within the community, and providing some real help.

I simply would like other peoples opinions and thoughts on what I have posted above, as atheists, theists, witches, whatever...

Norm

Not beleiving in god, so what other people believe is different, helping people is nice.

[Hux]

Helping people is good. No matter what you believe. If it doesn't cause you sleepless nights over some imagined compromise then do it. Well done.

[Beanbag]

Is the assistance being delivered efficiently to those who need it? If the answer is yes, then I'd work for whatever organization, religious or not, that gets the goods to the needs the bestest.

Beanbag
(who's been known to do music videos gratis for Christian rockers, just 'cause they're good people)

[GanipGnop]

I say helping is helping as long as you feel comfortable with your contributions. All I can say good on ya you'd make a fine Pope in my opinion! :D

[Puppycow]

Hey, I think it's a great thing to do too.

And while you don't need to raise the subject yourself, there's no reason to hide your atheism. It just goes to prove that atheist does not mean selfish or uncharitable.

[Darth Rotor]

I have read and noted the other responses. Thanks for replying, and thanks for accepting that a non theist may support local communities without being a theist, I am now awaiting theist replies, but not holding my breath.

Thanks again.

Norm
Other than my opinion that your using the term theist is both petty and insulting ( which is a dynamic of how this board works)

what you are doing is wonderful, and well done. *Tips cap*

Service to your fellow man -- who can do other than praise that?

DR

[Hux]

...your using the term theist is both petty and insulting

Seems about right to me.

[fromdownunder]

Other than my opinion that your using the term theist is both petty and insulting ( which is a dynamic of how this board works)



How so? I called myself a non-theist, so was I trying to insult myself? Should I have used another word? I do work for a Christian organisation. But I went generic.

Should I have said God believers, which I find pretty insulting, or should I have said Christians/Jews/Buddhists/Muslems/Mormons/Witches/Scientologists etc. etc. and hopefully covering all religious beliefs? Saying "Christians" instead of "theists" simply removes the options of 60%+ of the worlds population from responding to this thread.

Find me an alternative term to theists which simply infers a god belief, nothing more, nothing less, and I will use it (as an opposite to non-theist which I mostly prefer to atheist).

Norm

[Hux]

You could say "Religious nut" but that would be redundant.

[Ron_Tomkins]

When you consider that being an atheist is more about lacking a belief about something, rather than joining a "Party" or "Thought Group", then you realize there is no reason to even ponder whether or not you should work for a Religious Organization just because it's Religious (As opposed to "because such Organization promotes some philosophy and/or actions that I don't agree with").

[justcharlie09]

When you consider that being an atheist is more about lacking a belief about something, rather than joining a "Party" or "Thought Group", then you realize there is no reason to even ponder whether or not you should work for a Religious Organization just because it's Religious (As opposed to "because such Organization promotes some philosophy and/or actions that I don't agree with").

True enough, but there are legitimate reasons to be careful with regard to the organizations to whom you lend volunteer hours.

So, the question itself is worthwhile to ask. Maybe not "as an atheist" but..."given my worldview and personal values, can I support this organization without conflicting with my conscience"....it's something everyone who volunteers (or works for cash) should think about.

It would be nice if more people put thought into this sort of thing.

[Ron_Tomkins]

True enough, but there are legitimate reasons to be careful with regard to the organizations to whom you lend volunteer hours.

So, the question itself is worthwhile to ask. Maybe not "as an atheist" but..."given my worldview and personal values, can I support this organization without conflicting with my conscience"....it's something everyone who volunteers (or works for cash) should think about.

It would be nice if more people put thought into this sort of thing.

That part is already addressed on my post, specifically at the end, between the brackets.

[justcharlie09]

That part is already addressed on my post, specifically at the end, between the brackets.

Sorry, guess I was having a momentary attack of restating the obvious :blush:

I couldn't agree more w/ you regarding atheism not being a monolithic group. To be fair, theistic groups are not monolithic, either. Really, it boils down to the point your bracketed statement: volunteering/working for groups that mesh with personal values.

[Dave Rogers]

So, I now work 15 hours per week (excluding travel) for an emergency food and material help relief centre. It is religious based (The Australian Uniting Church) but does not promote religion in any way, shape or form to our clients.

Sounds fine to me; its function is clearly to render material aid to those in need of it, and it appears not to be tying this to a request to receive religious indoctrination. I think, in the same circumstances, I'd be happy to work for it.

Be prepared, though, to bite your tongue when some irritating Christian says to you, "Look at all the good work the Australian Uniting Church does. Why can't atheists ever do anything like that?"

Dave

[fromdownunder]

Sounds fine to me; its function is clearly to render material aid to those in need of it, and it appears not to be tying this to a request to receive religious indoctrination. I think, in the same circumstances, I'd be happy to work for it.

Be prepared, though, to bite your tongue when some irritating Christian says to you, "Look at all the good work the Australian Uniting Church does. Why can't atheists ever do anything like that?"

Dave

And of course this works both ways, when a non theist says "what good have theists ever done", I can point to this, even if, as I have said it is both Government and otherwise publicly subsidised (through such secular groups as United Way (formerly The Community Chest)

We do what we can do. And yes, I do bite my tongue when theists suggest that the Church is the only group who "cares for the poor". Because my personal belief is that the high Church does not give a flying [rule 12] about the poor.

Norm

[gambling_cruiser]

To answer the OP:
no fromdownunder you are not working for a religion,
preaching christianity would be count as such work, but you are working for poor people.

[Mister Agenda]

Other than my opinion that your using the term theist is both petty and insulting ( which is a dynamic of how this board works)

what you are doing is wonderful, and well done. *Tips cap*

Service to your fellow man -- who can do other than praise that?

DR


A Christianista. I've been told to my face that I are incapable of doing anything praiseworthy because of the proverb about fools saying in their heart there is no God and that not one of them does good.

In response to my pointing out my charitable giving, my volunteering with refugees, etc.; I was informed that I only think I'm helping, it will all wind up hurting the souls of others: people thinking atheists are charitable will turn away from Christ, the Muslim refugee families I work with will be less likely to convert to Christianity because they're being aided by an atheist who won't try to help them leave their Satan-inspired religion.

You may have a point about the dynamic here, but it doesn't spring from thin air. Many of us have had very unfortunate experiences with theists, althought it is an over-generalization to paint them all with the same brush. I prefer to be more specific in my caution, hence the term Christianista, which I think is pretty self-explanatory.

As an aside, my step-mother worries I'm a reprobate, which didn't sound so bad until I looked it up and found one of the meanings is 'someone who is condemned to eternal damnation'.

[Mister Agenda]

As to the OP, you can be church secretary or church janitor, or an architect who specializes in designing churches, and none of that is a problem for an atheist, IMO. If you're preaching the Word you would be a hypocrite, but anything short of that presents no moral problem. You have a right to make an honest living, there's nothing dishonest about performing non-preaching tasks for a religous organization, especially if it directly helps the disadvantaged. You have nothing to be ashamed of and plenty to be proud of.

[six7s]

A Christianista. I've been told to my face that I are incapable of doing anything praiseworthy because of the proverb about fools saying in their heart there is no God and that not one of them does good. Yeah?

Well... any fule can quote stuffThe whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970) :p

[six7s]

As an aside, my step-mother worries I'm a reprobate, which didn't sound so bad until I looked it up and found one of the meanings is 'someone who is condemned to eternal damnation'.No need to lose any sleep over that, then

Maybe you should remind her that blasphemy is a victimless crime

[newton3376]

I have read and noted the other responses. Thanks for replying, and thanks for accepting that a non theist may support local communities without being a theist, I am now awaiting theist replies, but not holding my breath.

Thanks again.

Norm

What do you want to know from the Theists here?

I am a Theist and I think what you are doing is fine....helping people usually is.

I would have no problem working for an "atheist" organization that was helping people...I would have no problem working for a "theist" organization that had a different version of theism than the one I hold to.

[slingblade]

You don't have to believe in god to believe in people.

That's my wisdom for this day. :)

[A.A. Alfie]

A Christianista. I've been told to my face that I are incapable of doing anything praiseworthy because of the proverb about fools saying in their heart there is no God and that not one of them does good.

In response to my pointing out my charitable giving, my volunteering with refugees, etc.; I was informed that I only think I'm helping, it will all wind up hurting the souls of others: people thinking atheists are charitable will turn away from Christ, the Muslim refugee families I work with will be less likely to convert to Christianity because they're being aided by an atheist who won't try to help them leave their Satan-inspired religion.

You may have a point about the dynamic here, but it doesn't spring from thin air. Many of us have had very unfortunate experiences with theists, althought it is an over-generalization to paint them all with the same brush. I prefer to be more specific in my caution, hence the term Christianista, which I think is pretty self-explanatory.

As an aside, my step-mother worries I'm a reprobate, which didn't sound so bad until I looked it up and found one of the meanings is 'someone who is condemned to eternal damnation'.

Just out of curiosity here:

- Who told you the drivel about atheists being unable to provide positive works?
- I don't understand what you mean by Christianista (is this a fundamentalist or similar?).
- Do you think your step mother really meant to suggest you are condemned? Or was it to do more with "disapproval" of something you did?

[A.A. Alfie]

Re the OP.
I have a friend who works for one of our professional sports teams here in a marketing capacity - she raises money, runs promotions and helps ensure the ongoing viability of the club. She doesn't barrack for the team she works for. She sees no problem with that, and neither do I.

[Niggle]

You don't have to believe in god to believe in people.

That's my wisdom for this day. :)

Well, I thought it was wise enough that I had to borrow it for my sig. I hope you don't mind.

fromdownunder: I don't see anything wrong, hypocritical, or anything else bad with what you're doing. I'm glad you've ensured that they don't force their religious beliefs on the people they help. It doesn't sound like they're forcing you into any conflict with your own beliefs (or lack thereof). So good on you for doing good!

:th:

[arthwollipot]

I've always found that the Uniting Church is generally pretty good with just getting on with the charity and not proselytising along with it.

[fromdownunder]

I've always found that the Uniting Church is generally pretty good with just getting on with the charity and not proselytising along with it.

This is very true. They are extremely pragmatic when it comes to getting people to assist. There is a new Commonwealth Government scheme which recently started which provides additional Centrelink support to younger people who cannot find full time work, and need "hours" of Community Service to subsidise any paid hours they might have.

Since the average age of our local network volunteers is 76 (at 60 I'm just a pup) they are grabbing up younger workers like crazy at the moment - no questions asked as to religious beliefs.

There is a tilt at religion, but often joking - when I had some cancer tests earlier this year, one of the Senior Administrators rang me and said (in passing - it was actually a business call) something along the lines that "I will pray for you, but I am sure you won't". They know what I am, although I have never actually shouted it out, or even found the need to. As I said in my OP, there is no real conflict. They just help people.

Norm

[fromdownunder]

I started this thread, in a way to counter proselytising whackjobs like KK who think that non theists cannot help without any God being around, and some non theists who think that Church based organisations only provide support in order to convert people to their particular cult.

Perhaps Boards (not necesarilly this one - the older IIDB springs to mind) draw extremism which only have good/bad options and opinions relating to belief and non belief, but the fact is, that there are so many shades of grey that extremism on any side is really a waste of time, effort and bandwidth. And in all cases is utterly untrue.

Norm

[newton3376]

I started this thread, in a way to counter proselytising whackjobs like KK who think that non theists cannot help without any God being around, and some non theists who think that Church based organisations only provide support in order to convert people to their particular cult.

Perhaps Boards (not necesarilly this one - the older IIDB springs to mind) draw extremism which only have good/bad options and opinions relating to belief and non belief, but the fact is, that there are so many shades of grey that extremism on any side is really a waste of time, effort and bandwidth. And in all cases is utterly untrue.

Norm

Ah....that makes sense and I agree 100%....even if I am an eviiiiiiiiil Theist. ;)

[Hux]

I started this thread, in a way to counter proselytising whackjobs like KK who think that non theists cannot help without any God being around, and some non theists who think that Church based organisations only provide support in order to convert people to their particular cult.

Perhaps Boards (not necesarilly this one - the older IIDB springs to mind) draw extremism which only have good/bad options and opinions relating to belief and non belief, but the fact is, that there are so many shades of grey that extremism on any side is really a waste of time, effort and bandwidth. And in all cases is utterly untrue.

Norm

There is no need to counter the proselytising whackjobs. They wear their faith like body armour against rationalists. Anyone can see they are mentally disordered, as they talk away like cartoon characters in their Borg like fashion with nary an original thought in their heads.

Work with whom ever you wish, work wherever you want. If you dont want to pray, dont pray. Work where you feel you are doing the most good and if you feel rewarded for that then screw them. You cannot teach a moron anything but you can carry on being an example. Sooner or later someone notices and wonders.

[six7s]

There is no need to counter the proselytising whackjobs. They wear their faith like body armour against rationalists. Anyone can see they are mentally disorderedAlas NO

Not anyone

Sadly, despite amazing progress in our collective understanding of reality, we still have a significant proportion of innocent children turning into whack-jobs

[Mister Agenda]

Yeah?

Well... any fule can quote stuffThe whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970) :p

True that. I'm only pointing out such fules exist.

[Mister Agenda]

No need to lose any sleep over that, then

Maybe you should remind her that blasphemy is a victimless crime

LOL! I don't think that would go over well, but I'll keep it in mind. She's a gentle soul, I'm sure she would never have said something like that to me if it weren't for her fundamentalist Pentecostal beliefs.

[Mister Agenda]

Just out of curiosity here:

- Who told you the drivel about atheists being unable to provide positive works?
- I don't understand what you mean by Christianista (is this a fundamentalist or similar?).
- Do you think your step mother really meant to suggest you are condemned? Or was it to do more with "disapproval" of something you did?

Sure:

- It was a Baptist I was unfortunate enough to work beside at a volunteer event for a local food bank. He put me through:'What church do you go to? /Unitarian Universalist. /That means you don't believe in God doesn't it?/ No, but a large minority of UUs don't./ Are you one of the ones that don't?/Yes.' I'm sure he derived his opinion from Psalm 14:1, 'The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.'

- Yes, fundamentalist or similar. Also applies to Christian dominionists, Christian Nation revisionists, and people who boycott stores for saying 'Happy Holidays' instead of 'Merry Christmas.' Intended to distinguish haters from the majority of decent Christians.

- I believe that's what she meant. She wouldn't say it directly, but found a way to say it that doesn't sound so bad. The thing I did which she disapproves of was to not be a United Pentecostal, like my father. I'm not entirely sure she wouldn't have said the same thing if I were a Church of God Pentecostal like my mother.

It can be very hard to grasp just how bizarre otherwise normal-seeming Americans can get when it comes to their religion when they are fundamentalists.

[six7s]

LOL! I don't think that would go over well, but I'll keep it in mind. She's a gentle soul, I'm sure she would never have said something like that to me if it weren't for her fundamentalist Pentecostal beliefs.Gentle? Superficially, perhaps

Anyone with "fundamentalist Pentecostal beliefs" is at best 'passive aggressive'

[Mister Agenda]

Gentle? Superficially, perhaps

Anyone with "fundamentalist Pentecostal beliefs" is at best 'passive aggressive'

That's the term, exactly. Her religion tells her to get in my face about it, but psychologically she can't be that direct, so I get stuff like 'You don't want to be a reprobate, do you?' :boggled:

[A.A. Alfie]

Sure:

- It was a Baptist I was unfortunate enough to work beside at a volunteer event for a local food bank. He put me through:'What church do you go to? /Unitarian Universalist. /That means you don't believe in God doesn't it?/ No, but a large minority of UUs don't./ Are you one of the ones that don't?/Yes.' I'm sure he derived his opinion from Psalm 14:1, 'The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.'

- Yes, fundamentalist or similar. Also applies to Christian dominionists, Christian Nation revisionists, and people who boycott stores for saying 'Happy Holidays' instead of 'Merry Christmas.' Intended to distinguish haters from the majority of decent Christians.

- I believe that's what she meant. She wouldn't say it directly, but found a way to say it that doesn't sound so bad. The thing I did which she disapproves of was to not be a United Pentecostal, like my father. I'm not entirely sure she wouldn't have said the same thing if I were a Church of God Pentecostal like my mother.

It can be very hard to grasp just how bizarre otherwise normal-seeming Americans can get when it comes to their religion when they are fundamentalists.

Thanks. Makes sense now. Cheers.

Good luck with your SM.

[A.A. Alfie]

Gentle? Superficially, perhaps

Anyone with "fundamentalist Pentecostal beliefs" is at best 'passive aggressive'

All generalisations are dangerous, don't you know.

[six7s]

All generalisations are dangerous, don't you know.You always say that!



















;)



On a more serious note, I was ... erm... serious when I said that "Anyone with "fundamentalist Pentecostal beliefs" is at best 'passive aggressive'"...

Note that this is in regard to fundamentalists - by definition they base their beliefs on vacuous, superstitious nonsense that simply (in more than one sense of the word) serves as a blunt tool for perpetuating an 'us vs them' mentality

[Darth Rotor]

You could say "Religious nut" but that would be redundant.
More stupid arrives on schedule, not to mention gratuitous insult.

Want to raise your game, or go back to parky level inanity?

At fromdownunder:

Because it isn't what various religious folks call themselves. It's an epithet y'all chose to make up.

To give you a little perspective on your blinders on sophistication, I guess the local Mexicans shouldn't feel insulted when called Spics, should they? I mean, after all, I'm a non Spic. Spic, heck, it's just a label someone else made up for them. By golly, they should be grateful somebody bothered to take the time to craft for them a nickname they didn't ask for.

Savvy?

DR

[A.A. Alfie]

You always say that!

And I am always right.





On a more serious note, I was ... erm... serious when I said that "Anyone with "fundamentalist Pentecostal beliefs" is at best 'passive aggressive'"...

Note that this is in regard to fundamentalists - by definition they base their beliefs on vacuous, superstitious nonsense that simply (in more than one sense of the word) serves as a blunt tool for perpetuating an 'us vs them' mentality


I can actually agree with that, in the main. My opinion is that those on the 'extremes' of any belief have the potential to be dangerous.

[quarky]

The theism/atheism divide gets exaggerated frequently, imho. There are lots of non-religious divides of agendas that have more significance, but we don't draw as much attention to them. In my little world, the gulf between democrats and republicans superceeds individual religious leanings.

I was in a town that was being flooded by a river, and volunteered for sand-bagging. There was a Christian youth group working with me, and they annoyed the hell out of me. They wrote little bibley messages with magic marker on each bag they filled, but it wasn't enough reason to abandon the task at hand.

[six7s]

I was in a town that was being flooded by a river, and volunteered for sand-bagging. There was a Christian youth group working with me, and they annoyed the hell out of me. They wrote little bibley messages with magic marker on each bag they filledWWJD (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=opera&rls=en&hs=Qav&q=%22who+would+jesus+drown%3F%22&aq=f&oq=&aqi=)?

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Oh, that reminds me. When I was 18, I volunteered for a time at a soup kitchen run by a church. It was located in their basement and the pastor was apparently the one co-overseeing the whole thing.

However, I was actually sent there by a secular organization located at my college that was (and probably still is) in a partnership of some kind with the church...and so were all of my co-workers, save for the cook and some other members of the kitchen staff.

I know that one of the women I volunteered with (not a member of the secular organization that put me and the rest of us there, one of the church's staff) had some kind of an arrangement where she lived at the church in exchange for her work for them but she was not a Christian of any kind, let alone a member of the church. I think she was Jewish, actually.

I asked her specifically about this cause I was curious how this church would do things in their charity work and how religious it was. From what I recall, I think she said they only wanted her to help out in mostly secular functions and that was once a blue moon and nothing more. So basically, there was next to no religion involved, at least as far as she was concerned. I think she said it was part of a larger program but I don't recall the details of it now.

And she was a lesbian and said that she had gotten married to her girlfriend...not sure if they lived together in the church quarters but I'd assume from the conversations I had with this woman that yes, they did. I'm mystified at what kind of marriage they had, though, since New York State doesn't give homosexuals marriages, then or now (though we recognize homosexual marriages from other states). I think I asked- because I was pretty confused- and she vaguely answered me but I don't remember what she said.

The other woman I often worked with, I know nothing about. I think I asked her at the time about the details of her work and I think she told me all about it but I've long since forgotten. From what I remember, though, she wasn't a practicing Christian at all. Or barely. And I don't know what arrangement the cook had.

It was an odd place. Apparently the location had originally been a Catholic church and was once an Orthodox church but had been turned into a modern nondenominational church of some sort. The pastor was a married woman and her husband was a former Catholic priest and they allegedly had some pretty wacky services...I never really figured out what it was about.

[fromdownunder]

At fromdownunder:

Because it isn't what various religious folks call themselves. It's an epithet y'all chose to make up.

To give you a little perspective on your blinders on sophistication, I guess the local Mexicans shouldn't feel insulted when called Spics, should they? I mean, after all, I'm a non Spic. Spic, heck, it's just a label someone else made up for them. By golly, they should be grateful somebody bothered to take the time to craft for them a nickname they didn't ask for.

Savvy?

DR

No I do not "savvy" in the slightest. Theism (of Greek origin) is not an epithet made up by atheists (which is simple the word theist with an "a" in front of it - I will leave it as an exercise for the student to look up the origins of both words ).

Both theist and atheist are well known and popular expressions. If you cannot even understand this, then there is no point in discussing the matter further. You are looking for an insult which is not there and for a reason I cannot even fathom.

Norm.

[Soapy Sam]

Back to the OP:- If you have found a way to improve your life, in pleasant company, why would anyone criticise you? And by what right would they do so?

Many perfectly decent and honest folk are religious...:)

[arthwollipot]

And many religious people are perfectly decent and honest folk...

[quarky]

And many perfect people are

Oh, never mind.

[Mister Agenda]

Thanks. Makes sense now. Cheers.

Good luck with your SM.

Thanks! I said 'if that's what I am, it's what I am', and she hasn't brought it up since. She is very hospitable when I visit, but sometimes I wish I hadn't come out to her and my father. As burdens go, it's a pretty light one though, I just brought it up as an example of people who really think like that.

[Darth Rotor]

No I do not "savvy"
Not surprised.
Both theist and atheist are well known and popular expressions. That last statement is not quite true. The latter is and has been in common usage for a very long time, the former not so much.
You are looking for an insult which is not there and for a reason I cannot even fathom.
The failure to fathom is a byproduct of groupthink, which narrowly focused internet communities of all sorts tend to promote.

Norm, my normal response, three years ago when I first encountered these forums and saw the (to me surprising at the time) casual bigotry on display, was to parody the ante bellum American South. We are bickering, and not adding value here.

I'll leave you with my fondest wish that none of them nigrahz out in the fields ever bothers you as you sip your mint julep on the porch.

I'll also apolgize to you, and the general readership, for detracting from the core matter in your OP, which is helping our fellow man.

DR

[The Fallen Serpent]

Theist and theism has common roots with other acceptable words such as theology. Still the common ancestory or even previous meanings of words are out of context in light of modern perjorative uses. Theist as a reference to anyone of a religious nature is in itself quite recent. Theist essentially meant monotheist for a few centuries. In my experience "believers" and "the religious" tend to work with less chance of offense. Individuals will be offended by their individual standards. Tone, sarcasm and context can make any word or statement offensive. Just as "non-believers" and "heathens" tend to be offensive to those us that are by the context they are usually presented with. From the context of fromdownunder's post no offense appears intended but an actual curiosity in another perspective on his situation that is a relevent difference. Is it possible that you, DR, who brought up theist being offensive (which is not unique, I've noticed elsewhere as I said) could suggest an alternative that implies what was intended without the implication of disparagement or such is even possible in your mind?

[six7s]

Is it possible that you, DR, who brought up theist being offensive (which is not unique, I've noticed elsewhere as I said) could suggest an alternative that implies what was intended without the implication of disparagement or such is even possible in your mind?:popcorn1

[six7s]

And many religious people are perfectly decent and honest folk...Yes... when "perfectly decent" encompasses 'promoting divisions based on ignorance of others' and "honest" includes 'perpetuating ridiculously stupid superstition-based myths'... yeah...

GXzladhscMQ
Pat Condell: A secular world is a sane world

YjZ-lSn0A3M
Pat Condell: Godless and free

[A.A. Alfie]

Yes... when "perfectly decent" encompasses 'promoting divisions based on ignorance of others' and "honest" includes 'perpetuating ridiculously stupid superstition-based myths'... yeah...

GXzladhscMQ
Pat Condell: A secular world is a sane world

YjZ-lSn0A3M
Pat Condell: Godless and free

More extremist nonsense cited as examples for "the many"?

[six7s]

More extremist nonsense cited as examples for "the many"?Merely because you don't (won't?) understand something doesn't mean its "nonsense"

[A.A. Alfie]

Merely because you don't (won't?) understand something doesn't mean its "nonsense"

Not at all. He has some valid ponts. What I am trying to point out is that you continue to throw up just one extreme end of the argument and then tar all 'theists' with the same brush. At the same time, ignore all the good works and good people (which I reckon forms the majority) that are religious.

As I've said before, the extremists at both ends of the spectrum are dangerous, and that is true for any issue.

[six7s]

What I am trying to point out is that you continue to [...] tar all 'theists' with the same brush. At the same time, ignore all the good works and good people (which I reckon forms the majority) that are religious.Continue to ignore all the good works and good people?

Really?

You ought to apply for the MDC

[A.A. Alfie]

Continue to ignore all the good works and good people?

Really?

You ought to apply for the MDC

You changed my words slightly, but still true enough imo.

MDC?
Mozilla Developer Center ?
Marlborough District Council?
Mater Dei College?
Multidisciplinary care?
Memorial(s) Development Committee?
Movement For Democratic Change?

I am not familiar with the group or their workings, please excuse my ignorance but you might need to explain.

[six7s]

MDC = Million Dollar Challenge; see http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=8

[Darth Rotor]

Is it possible that you, DR, who brought up theist being offensive (which is not unique, I've noticed elsewhere as I said) could suggest an alternative that implies what was intended without the implication of disparagement or such is even possible in your mind?
I lived about 47 years before I ever saw the term "theist" used by anyone. I read quite a bit. I pay attention.

Atheist I've been aware of for decades, since I was a kid. First time I saw that term used as though it had any meaning was in discussions here, and one other web forum. Used exclusively by agnostics and atheists, to describe somebody else.

The insular nature of self reinforcing communities changes what you perceive as common usage. I will once again point out to you that believers and religious persons do not generally use "theist" to describe themselves. It is an epithet coined for use, and used most commonly by, a party with a particular bias.

I simply observe what I see, and if you choose not to see it, I shall not waste any more of your time.

You are invited to remain on the plantation.

DR

[fromdownunder]

Not at all. He has some valid ponts. What I am trying to point out is that you continue to throw up just one extreme end of the argument and then tar all 'theists' with the same brush. At the same time, ignore all the good works and good people (which I reckon forms the majority) that are religious.

And non religious. You seem not to point to non religious people who do actually do things to help others regardless of religious beliefs.

As I've said before, the extremists at both ends of the spectrum are dangerous, and that is true for any issue.

Agreed completely. That, as I said earlier was one of the reasons I started this thread - specifically to see if any extremisists would jump in and play. I have no time for either extremist edge of the religious spectrum. And to be perfectly honest, I have less time for atheist extremists than I do for religious extremists. But that's for another thread.

Norm

[A.A. Alfie]

And non religious. You seem not to point to non religious people who do actually do things to help others regardless of religious beliefs.

You're quite right, it was my omission but not my intention to ignore those.

[Darth Rotor]

A Christianista. I've been told to my face that I are incapable of doing anything praiseworthy because of the proverb about fools saying in their heart there is no God and that not one of them does good.
Since I have done none of this, why the gratuitous insult?

If You Bother To Read the Content of My Post, praised as laudatory his actions, what, may I ask, is the point of this response to me other than to throw an insult at me, and classify me in a grossly incorrect term?

Nothing. I also take the attitude, and have for as long as I can remember, that we are each free to get to Heaven or Hell in our own special way. If Jesus and God, or Allah, Krishna, Buddha, Odin, or whomever or whatever, isn't you cup of tea, that is fine. Follow your heart, your best instinct.

As to that slur, Christianista, you are invited to get bent. It takes somebody outside of the group think to occasionally shed some light on the casual assumptions an "in" group blithely takes on, without noticing it.

You are also invited to review the posts in this thread. Pay close attention to tone of the post which elicited my point on how he used theist. From the OP's third or fourth post.

Thanks for replying, and thanks for accepting that a non theist may support local communities without being a theist, I am now awaiting theist replies, but not holding my breath.
That's a Please do not circumvent the autocensor attitude on display there, mate.

So, are you just another plantation dweller? I sincerely hope not.

DR

[Darth Rotor]

Agreed completely. That, as I said earlier was one of the reasons I started this thread - specifically to see if any extremisists would jump in and play.
To be nit picky, that isn't what you said. You said "theists" which isn't the same as "extremist" unless you assume all religious persons to be exremists, which I don't think you do.
I have no time for either extremist edge of the religious spectrum.
Neither do I. Part of my aggrivation toward that, in the Christian subset, is due to my belief that part of the walk is to set a decent example. My own succumbing to annoyance, as in this thread, is a weakness that doesn't do my own example setting much good. :p
And to be perfectly honest, I have less time for atheist extremists than I do for religious extremists. But that's for another thread.

I am in accord with you there, though I find little to distinguish between the militant voices in either party. Glad to see we have common ground.

If we go back to page 2, at the top, slingblade's pithy summation to your story stands up pretty well.

DR

[Hux]

To the OP.

What would you have done or said had we all turned on you and called you a hypocrite and insincere in your beliefs? Had we condemned you, would it have made any difference?

[Darth Rotor]

To the OP.

What would you have done or said had we all turned on you and called you a hypocrite and insincere in your beliefs? Had we condemned you, would it have made any difference?
One hopes he'd have called us all a bunch of wankers, had we done so.

DR

[Hux]

That would not illuminate whether it would make any difference. Presumably if he thought that response required the epithet of wanker he needn't have bothered asking. I simply wondered if he cared one way or the other and would we influence what he is already doing? In short, did he care in the slightest?

[Mister Agenda]

Since I have done none of this, why the gratuitous insult?

If You Bother To Read the Content of My Post, praised as laudatory his actions, what, may I ask, is the point of this response to me other than to throw an insult at me, and classify me in a grossly incorrect term?

Nothing. I also take the attitude, and have for as long as I can remember, that we are each free to get to Heaven or Hell in our own special way. If Jesus and God, or Allah, Krishna, Buddha, Odin, or whomever or whatever, isn't you cup of tea, that is fine. Follow your heart, your best instinct.

As to that slur, Christianista, you are invited to get bent. It takes somebody outside of the group think to occasionally shed some light on the casual assumptions an "in" group blithely takes on, without noticing it.

You are also invited to review the posts in this thread. Pay close attention to tone of the post which elicited my point on how he used theist. From the OP's third or fourth post.


That's a Please do not circumvent the autocensor attitude on display there, mate.

So, are you just another plantation dweller? I sincerely hope not.

DR

I did not insult you intentionally, although since you are insulted by the term theist (someone who believes in some sort of divine being), I'm not sure how to have a discourse with you that you wouldn't take offense at.

You asked a question (rhetorical, I know) about who would condemn someone doing good works. My post was a response to the question, as it is not actually true that no one would condemn someone doing good. There are reasons atheists (a term actually coined with the intent to use as an insult) are cautious about the reactions of Christianistas to anything they might do if they are known as an atheist.

As to 'Christianista', the term applies to the sort of Christians atheists have to worry about. You are not that sort of person, despite a tendency to seek offense. A true Christianista would not have been supportive of the OP.

It's sort of like being an 'Islamist' rather than just being a Muslim. I use 'Christianist' as a term for Christian Dominionists, 'Christianistas' usually agree with that philosophy and are also blatant haters. It is intended as a slur, similar to calling someone a fascist. I use it instead of the word 'Christian' because the majority of Christians are decent folk who would never think of someone doing good as an object of vilification, whether they agreed with the person's opinion on religion or not.

As for the tone, I agree, but he could just as easily said 'religous', do you consider that word insulting as well? For the record, i didn't really catch your complaint about being called a theist the first time around, I was only responiding to the idea that no one would ever condemn the OPs actions.

[fromdownunder]

That would not illuminate whether it would make any difference. Presumably if he thought that response required the epithet of wanker he needn't have bothered asking. I simply wondered if he cared one way or the other and would we influence what he is already doing? In short, did he care in the slightest?

I would not stop working for Uniting Care as a result of any posts on this thread if that's what you mean. I care insofar as I value the opinions of other people. I just wondered what the members of this Board thought of my "real life hypothetical", (Well, I know what I mean by that phrase)

Norm

[Darth Rotor]

I did not insult you intentionally, although since you are insulted by the term theist (someone who believes in some sort of divine being), I'm not sure how to have a discourse with you that you wouldn't take offense at.

You asked a question (rhetorical, I know) about who would condemn someone doing good works. My post was a response to the question, as it is not actually true that no one would condemn someone doing good. There are reasons atheists (a term actually coined with the intent to use as an insult) are cautious about the reactions of Christianistas to anything they might do if they are known as an atheist.

As to 'Christianista', the term applies to the sort of Christians atheists have to worry about. You are not that sort of person, despite a tendency to seek offense. A true Christianista would not have been supportive of the OP.

It's sort of like being an 'Islamist' rather than just being a Muslim. I use 'Christianist' as a term for Christian Dominionists, 'Christianistas' usually agree with that philosophy and are also blatant haters. It is intended as a slur, similar to calling someone a fascist. I use it instead of the word 'Christian' because the majority of Christians are decent folk who would never think of someone doing good as an object of vilification, whether they agreed with the person's opinion on religion or not.

As for the tone, I agree, but he could just as easily said 'religous', do you consider that word insulting as well? For the record, i didn't really catch your complaint about being called a theist the first time around, I was only responiding to the idea that no one would ever condemn the OPs actions.
OK, thanks for the elaboration.

We can have a pint after all. ;) I'll have Guinness, what are you drinking?

[Mister Agenda]

OK, thanks for the elaboration.

We can have a pint after all. ;) I'll have Guinness, what are you drinking?

LOL, I'm having hard cider, I had to give up beer. :eek: And I apologize for thinking you are quick to offend, it is obviously just a misunderstanding...your sense of humor about it bears witness.

[A.A. Alfie]

MDC = Million Dollar Challenge; see http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=8

This makes no sense to me at all.

[Darth Rotor]

LOL, I'm having hard cider, I had to give up beer. :eek: And I apologize for thinking you are quick to offend, it is obviously just a misunderstanding...your sense of humor about it bears witness.
I am sometimes very cranky and grumpy, there is sufficient evidence on this board for that. But thanks for your patience. :)

Hard cider it is.

DR

[Safe-Keeper]

I once volunteered in my local church (OK, so I didn't volunteer - I was forced to go because I skipped too many confirmation classes :p) and greatly enjoyed the job. It was quiet, there was no stress, and despite my misgivings about Christianity I find most of its adherents to be great people, and I liked the quiet atmosphere of the 850 years old stone church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fana_church).

I keep thinking that I want to be an "altar boy" again, but at the same time I feel Yahweh is not a god I want to serve. Not sure if the church would want an atheist for a volunteer, anyhow;).

[quarky]

Ah, morality! So complex; so personal.

I was a fake Mormon missionary for years. I went door to door with my scam artist friend. We got into rich people's houses and stole valuable items without being noticed.
Then we pawned the stuff, and used the money to feed starving children.
I quit when God spoke to me in a dream. He told me how pleased he was with me.





(Yes, I just made up that load of b.s.)

[Darth Rotor]

Ah, morality! So complex; so personal.

I was a fake Mormon missionary for years. I went door to door with my scam artist friend. We got into rich people's houses and stole valuable items without being noticed.
Then we pawned the stuff, and used the money to feed starving children.
I quit when God spoke to me in a dream. He told me how pleased he was with me.


(Yes, I just made up that load of b.s.)
But it was still amusing. :)

[quarky]

Thanks.

[Beanbag]

Here's a laugh for you: I've been asked to help out with a Christian rap video. It's a largely green production crew "above the line," (i.e. new director, director of photography, etc) doing their first production. I got hooked into it through some more experienced friends who're working on it, and the director saw me on an earlier production and somehow decided that I knew what I was doing ( never underestimate the power of being able to provide quick answers that sound reasonable and might actually be correct).

What the hell! I'm feeling masochistic this month.

Beanbag

[Darth Rotor]

Here's a laugh for you: I've been asked to help out with a Christian rap video. It's a largely green production crew "above the line," (i.e. new director, director of photography, etc) doing their first production. I got hooked into it through some more experienced friends who're working on it, and the director saw me on an earlier production and somehow decided that I knew what I was doing ( never underestimate the power of being able to provide quick answers that sound reasonable and might actually be correct).

What the hell! I'm feeling masochistic this month.

Beanbag
If it's a paying gig, why not take it?

[Beanbag]

If it's a paying gig, why not take it?
"Paying gig" associated with an independent production?

Aw, come on now, Rotor -- you can't be that naive. Can you?

Though they did dangle the usual "this could lead to a paying job" carrot, though by now I can name that tune in one note.

Paying gig. Snerk.

Beanbag

[arthwollipot]

This makes no sense to me at all.Well, it's kind of a central focus for the JREF, so you probably ought to make yourself passingly familiar with it.

Basically, if someone can demonstrate under controlled conditions that they have some sort of paranormal ability, James Randi will give them a million dollars.

That's... about it, really. Many have applied, none have passed even the preliminary test.

[A.A. Alfie]

Well, it's kind of a central focus for the JREF, so you probably ought to make yourself passingly familiar with it.

Basically, if someone can demonstrate under controlled conditions that they have some sort of paranormal ability, James Randi will give them a million dollars.

That's... about it, really. Many have applied, none have passed even the preliminary test.

I understand the MDC part and what that relates to (now). But I still don't understand how that related to anything I've said.

Anyway, unimportant.

[arthwollipot]

I think he was accusing you of claiming to be a mind reader. But as you say, unimportant.