My first angry atheist attack

[truethat]

As some of you might know I recently quit the seminary as an atheist. I went in as an atheist for the purpose of investigation. However my threshold seemed to be a lot lower than I thought.

Honestly it was a shock to me as an atheist to realize in this setting how intolerant of what I consider blatant and willful stupidity and intellectual dishonesty in discussing the bible as a source of divine inspiration.

Since some of my good friends understand my journey I am normally open minded about other people's beliefs. However at a recent dinner at which a friend asked us to take a moment of silence to pray for her sick grandmother I was unnerved.

I remember debating for quite some time a thread regarding prayer over dinner on Unexplained Mysteries. I was very much of the point of view that a momentary silence was something to be sat through in silence. I did this for my friend but then the conversation turned to her constantly questioning why I didn't believe in God.

And of course the old mantra that if I didn't believe in god the truth was that I believed in god I just called it something else.

I am completely convinced at this point that there is no God and when people begin to argue that I can't prove that there is no God I begin to get annoyed.

My argument is that I can prove that the Christian God and the Muslim God and the Abrahamic God are not real. No more real than Zeus. And I return to my mantra that God is not the catchphrase solve all of "Well whatever that THING is that we don't know, that's God!!"

To me that is a ridiculous statement. The God that is claimed by these religions has specific attributes.

There is no need to disprove this god since religion itself does it quite neatly> Documentary Hypothesis anyone?

I'm starting to lose patience.

By the end of the dinner the other atheist confronted my friend with her "jamming her beliefs down my throat."

And so I checked her on her asking for prayer which seemed to totally stun her as something offensive to do.

It is the first time in a long time I've been asked to pray for someone. I'm surprised at my own vitriol.

[RandFan]

I constantly go over arguments in my mind to be prepared but they no longer come up. People don't like to debate with me. And I'm actually pretty nice and listen a lot and ask a lot of questions and clarify positions. "So, you are saying that the universe is god"? "We already have a name for the universe". "It's called the universe".

Sorry for your confrontation.

Have you heard Storm by Tim Minchin?

UB_htqDCP-s

[Baby Nemesis]

It's funny how you have all these problems, Truethat. Not all atheists do. Some seem to manage to ask Christians all sorts of controversial questions for weeks and they're still mostly all friendly towards him at the end and enjoy the theological challenge of his questions. Could this one just have far more tact and charm? Here's a review of the last week of an Alpha Course he went on. (http://alphacoursereview.wordpress.com/)

I commented on this in another thread (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=5262758&postcount=158), where I said,

... Now here's an atheist I can respect! He joined an Alpha course openly as a skeptic. He managed to go for hours discussing things with a little group of Christians who weren't well-up on theology, and he put some fairly tough questions to them, they often responded not very well at all, theologically-speaking, and yet they were all friendly at the end of it! It seems the Christians enjoyed the challenge of the discussion. He didn't assume he knew the answers and ask questions that seemed designed to trip them up or show up the alleged silliness of their beliefs; the questions he asked seemed to be being asked in a spirit of sincere intent to gain sensible answers, with the assumption that such answers might possibly exist. That's the kind of tone I'd value in an atheist Bible-critiquing project. He didn't resort to mockery of the Bible or smearing of the characters of any of the Christians, - at least it seems not. Nothing he said sounded hostile. He didn't nit-pick. He didn't accuse. He infers a few criticisms of the Christians he was with in his account of what happened, but nothing gratuitously scornful, and it seems that at the time, he was admirably patient while responding to the wackier ideas of some of them. His questions were all quite intelligent, and on topics of theological importance. I haven't read the other pages he's written, but since the one I've linked to was about the last week of the course, and it describes them as still cordial, I presume he probably maintained a good-natured attitude all the way through the course.

[bokonon]

I constantly go over arguments in my mind to be prepared but they no longer come up. People don't like to debate with me. And I'm actually pretty nice and listen a lot and ask a lot of questions and clarify positions. "So, you are saying that the universe is god"? "We already have a name for the universe". "It's called the universe".
So you are saying that Barak Obama is President? We already have a name for Barak Obama. He's called Barak Obama.

I actually have a soft spot for the universe = God crowd. While they can still have a lot of individually damaging beliefs (i.e. "The Secret"), they're not likely to be steeped in bronze-age dogma. And if the universe is God, then learning about God is learning about the universe, so they shouldn't (in theory) be anti-science.

Have you heard Storm by Tim Minchin?
I hadn't heard it before, but I enjoyed it immensely. Thanks.

[Cainkane1]

As some of you might know I recently quit the seminary as an atheist. I went in as an atheist for the purpose of investigation. However my threshold seemed to be a lot lower than I thought.

Honestly it was a shock to me as an atheist to realize in this setting how intolerant of what I consider blatant and willful stupidity and intellectual dishonesty in discussing the bible as a source of divine inspiration.

Since some of my good friends understand my journey I am normally open minded about other people's beliefs. However at a recent dinner at which a friend asked us to take a moment of silence to pray for her sick grandmother I was unnerved.

I remember debating for quite some time a thread regarding prayer over dinner on Unexplained Mysteries. I was very much of the point of view that a momentary silence was something to be sat through in silence. I did this for my friend but then the conversation turned to her constantly questioning why I didn't believe in God.

And of course the old mantra that if I didn't believe in god the truth was that I believed in god I just called it something else.

I am completely convinced at this point that there is no God and when people begin to argue that I can't prove that there is no God I begin to get annoyed.

My argument is that I can prove that the Christian God and the Muslim God and the Abrahamic God are not real. No more real than Zeus. And I return to my mantra that God is not the catchphrase solve all of "Well whatever that THING is that we don't know, that's God!!"

To me that is a ridiculous statement. The God that is claimed by these religions has specific attributes.

There is no need to disprove this god since religion itself does it quite neatly> Documentary Hypothesis anyone?

I'm starting to lose patience.

By the end of the dinner the other atheist confronted my friend with her "jamming her beliefs down my throat."

And so I checked her on her asking for prayer which seemed to totally stun her as something offensive to do.

It is the first time in a long time I've been asked to pray for someone. I'm surprised at my own vitriol.
Quit being so militant. We're in the vast overwhelming minority and thats the way its going to stay. Don't try to argue. You can discuss things with a believer but be prepared for threats of HAIL FAR and such. Its not always safe to argue with a believer. They can get shrill and violent. You're trying too hard.

[Baby Nemesis]

Isn't it mainly only in the American South that it's like that?

[Hux]

Quit being so militant. We're in the vast overwhelming minority and thats the way its going to stay. Don't try to argue. You can discuss things with a believer but be prepared for threats of HAIL FAR and such. Its not always safe to argue with a believer. They can get shrill and violent. You're trying too hard.

So he/ she is supposed to sit there and take that crap? Next you'll be suggesting its not Ok to throw shoes at Glenn Beck on the screen.

[SumDood]

I'm of the belief that the best way to argue is to show the advantages of your position as opposed to the weakness of the opposing ones. Much more difficult to do in this particular case since we can point out how silly their beliefs all day long. My major point in the strength of my argument was lifted from Penn Jillette: If god exists, why is there suffering? Because he is punishing or testing us, or has some incomprehensible higher plan. No matter why, there is no reason to suspect god will ever stop suffering, because we are imperfect beings. By believing there is no god, that allows hope that some day we can end suffering.

The gist was lifted from this article from Mr Jillette here:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5015557

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Have you heard Storm by Tim Minchin?

UB_htqDCP-s

Here's a live version:

WidsgIt3lfw

[RandFan]

It's funny how you have all these problems, Truethat. Not all atheists do. Some seem to manage to ask Christians all sorts of controversial questions for weeks and they're still mostly all friendly towards him at the end and enjoy the theological challenge of his questions. Could this one just have far more tact and charm? Here's a review of the last week of an Alpha Course he went on. (http://alphacoursereview.wordpress.com/)

I commented on this in another thread (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=5262758&postcount=158), where I said,Atheists and Christans are, surprisingly I guess, both human. I've had wonderful conversations with Christians. I've had the opposite also. My responses in the real world are very different from my responses here. I wear kid gloves in the real world. Here I expect Christians to know the terrain. But I still have great relationships with a number of religious members of JREF. We have great conversations.

That said, I am strongly opinionated when it comes to Bible inerrancy or those who claim to know the mind of god. Irrational positions deserve a firmer approach IMO. Don't tell me that you know something that you cannot know. Don't tell me that a book of atrocity (the Bible) is inerrant. At lest don't tell me that and expect me to just sit down and shut up.

[justcharlie09]

As some of you might know I recently quit the seminary as an atheist. I went in as an atheist for the purpose of investigation. However my threshold seemed to be a lot lower than I thought.

Honestly it was a shock to me as an atheist to realize in this setting how intolerant of what I consider blatant and willful stupidity and intellectual dishonesty in discussing the bible as a source of divine inspiration.

Since some of my good friends understand my journey I am normally open minded about other people's beliefs. However at a recent dinner at which a friend asked us to take a moment of silence to pray for her sick grandmother I was unnerved.

I remember debating for quite some time a thread regarding prayer over dinner on Unexplained Mysteries. I was very much of the point of view that a momentary silence was something to be sat through in silence. I did this for my friend but then the conversation turned to her constantly questioning why I didn't believe in God.

And of course the old mantra that if I didn't believe in god the truth was that I believed in god I just called it something else.

I am completely convinced at this point that there is no God and when people begin to argue that I can't prove that there is no God I begin to get annoyed.

My argument is that I can prove that the Christian God and the Muslim God and the Abrahamic God are not real. No more real than Zeus. And I return to my mantra that God is not the catchphrase solve all of "Well whatever that THING is that we don't know, that's God!!"

To me that is a ridiculous statement. The God that is claimed by these religions has specific attributes.

There is no need to disprove this god since religion itself does it quite neatly> Documentary Hypothesis anyone?

I'm starting to lose patience.

By the end of the dinner the other atheist confronted my friend with her "jamming her beliefs down my throat."

And so I checked her on her asking for prayer which seemed to totally stun her as something offensive to do.

It is the first time in a long time I've been asked to pray for someone. I'm surprised at my own vitriol.

I'm sorry you had that experience. No one should jam beliefs down anyone else's throat. In defense, it sounds like she's going through some internal turmoil, herself. Maybe it was just some displaced aggression on both sides? No offense intended, but between your frustration and her family situation it just sounds like the situation was ripe for an explosion of some sort.

As for prayer, I don't view it as the 24/7 celestial help desk and request line. It's more of a meditative thing. Praying "for" someone usually involves praying they can weather whatever happens to them with as much peace as possible/meditating on how I might find some way to help. I don't pray for miracles because I don't believe in them.

Each to their own. We're on our own to figure out where we stand on these matters whether we like it or not.

[HarryKeogh]

I hadn't heard it before, but I enjoyed it immensely. Thanks.

Ditto. Thanks for posting that, Randfan.

[justcharlie09]

Atheists and Christans are, surprisingly I guess, both human. I've had wonderful conversations with Christians. I've had the opposite also. My responses in the real world are very different from my responses here. I wear kid gloves in the real world. Here I expect Christians to know the terrain. But I still have great relationships with a number of religious members of JREF. We have great conversations.

That said, I am strongly opinionated when it comes to Bible inerrancy or those who claim to know the mind of god. Irrational positions deserve a firmer approach IMO. Don't tell me that you know something that you cannot know. Don't tell me that a book of atrocity (the Bible) is inerrant. At lest don't tell me that an expect me to just sit down and shut up.

Can't agree with you more on that point.

Personally, I prefer "inspired" to "inerrant" for obvious reasons. With regard to knowing the mind of God, I'm convinced that, assuming there is a God, it would be impossible for any human to "know" the mind of such an entity--given human limitations.

Faith is an act of trusting there is some entity out there to relate to, and some purpose or all-encompassing truth. I don't know what or who God is, I just trust, in general that there's something there. That something, on an inspired guess, bears a resemblence in "mind" to NT Gospels insofar as they are calling for compassion, relationship, selflessness, love.

It's still just a guess and an attempt at blind trust. If someone asked me what God was or what that mind would be like...the best I can come up with are the words intangible and ineffable.

Of course, this is a big reason I'm a Christian w/o a church...especially in my neck of the woods. Around here a lot of people go for the angry Zeus-like, sky god with a big beard and a throne accompanied by an eerily charming, glad-handing, grinning Jesus. :boggled:

Not my cup o' tea and those people scare me. I've found there isn't much talking to do w/ that sort. :(

[blobru]

Can't agree with you more on that point.

Personally, I prefer "inspired" to "inerrant" for obvious reasons. With regard to knowing the mind of God, I'm convinced that, assuming there is a God, it would be impossible for any human to "know" the mind of such an entity--given human limitations.

Faith is an act of trusting there is some entity out there to relate to, and some purpose or all-encompassing truth. I don't know what or who God is, I just trust, in general that there's something there. That something, on an inspired guess, bears a resemblence in "mind" to NT Gospels insofar as they are calling for compassion, relationship, selflessness, love.

It's still just a guess and an attempt at blind trust. If someone asked me what God was or what that mind would be like...the best I can come up with are the words intangible and ineffable.

Of course, this is a big reason I'm a Christian w/o a church...especially in my neck of the woods. Around here a lot of people go for the angry Zeus-like, sky god with a big beard and a throne accompanied by an eerily charming, glad-handing, grinning Jesus. :boggled:

Not my cup o' tea and those people scare me. I've found there isn't much talking to do w/ that sort. :(


This is very much the kind of faith I like. :) As an atheist, of course, I think you're wrong; but we'll just agree to disagree there and get on with our bad (meaning good) selves.

I hope it's on the upswing. Sometimes I think it is... sometimes, I dunno.

[Fnord]

... Honestly it was a shock to me as an atheist to realize in this setting how intolerant of what I consider blatant and willful stupidity and intellectual dishonesty in discussing the bible as a source of divine inspiration...

Please forgive me, but what else did you expect? The context was religion, not an inclusive forum on knowledge and tolerance!

I'm am a theist, and it embarrasses me whenever I read accounts like yours, because I know from personal experiences that you are relating a story most likely to be true, and with little or no hyperbole or exaggeration. I hope that you don't think that we're all like that ... just most of us.

;)

Religion is the most effective means known to destroy a person's faith.

[Eyeron]

I embrace the atheist's wager:

You should live your life and try to make the world a better place for your being in it, whether or not you believe in god. If there is no god, you have lost nothing and will be remembered fondly by those you left behind. If there is a benevolent god, he will judge you on your merits and not just on whether or not you believed in him.

And as for me as I get older I just don't worry about what other people believe any more. It doesn't matter to me, as long as they leave me alone I'll do the same.

People are going to believe what they want to believe, regardless of the circumstances of the beliefs. It just doesn't matter if they're atheists or political or religious any mix of beliefs nor does it matter how reasoned or logical or rational or justifiable those beliefs are.

[justcharlie09]

This is very much the kind of faith I like. As an atheist, of course, I think you're wrong; but we'll just agree to disagree there and get on with our bad (meaning good) selves.

I hope it's on the upswing. Sometimes I think it is... sometimes, I dunno.

Thanks. Well, one way too look at it: we'll both know for sure who was right when we're dead. Of course, that will be a little late to have a discussion on the JREF forum about it. :D (meant as a joke only--don't insert any serious into that statement at all PLEASE)

Yes, I hope it is on the up-swing, too.

Religion is the most effective means known to destroy a person's faith.

Fnord, I couldn't agree with you more. It's a forehead-to-palm experience followed by an "Oh, no, please tell me they didn't...they did? Oh, ugh...sigh"

I can't tell you HOW many times I've gotten into arguments with "believers" about this point. Every time I say "Don't you get it? You're NOT evangelizing for God, you're making all sorts of points in favor of the notion that religious people are rabid idiots in general!" :(

Nope, they don't get it. Don't want to get it, either. So embarassing.

[RandFan]

I embrace the atheist's wager:

You should live your life and try to make the world a better place for your being in it, whether or not you believe in god. If there is no god, you have lost nothing and will be remembered fondly by those you left behind. If there is a benevolent god, he will judge you on your merits and not just on whether or not you believed in him. :)

I like it. Unlike Pascal's wager it is honest. Pretending to believe in a Deity to appease the Deity is something that I cannot do. If there is an omnipotent and just god I would think that it would have to give high marks for honesty and decency.

I would like to add to the wager: If there is no god you will find that goodness is in and of itself its own reward.

[tsig]

Of course, this is a big reason I'm a Christian w/o a church...especially in my neck of the woods. Around here a lot of people go for the angry Zeus-like, sky god with a big beard and a throne accompanied by an eerily charming, glad-handing, grinning Jesus. :boggled:

. :(

The old good god/bad god routine.

[justcharlie09]

The old good god/bad god routine.

That must be wha that light shining down is all about...it's not actually a beam of celestial goodness, it's a heat-lamp for forced confession :eek:

Or maybe it's just the studio lighting Mr. Deity is using.

(BTW, if you aren't familiar with Mr. Deity, you've gotta check it out:

http://www.youtube.com/user/misterdeity )

[fuelair]

The old good god/bad god routine.

Kill all the gods and let dog sort it out:D:D!!!!

[Magyar]

I belong to a photo forum that has serious rules about staying on topic and not talking politics etc - yet on a weekly basise there are people posing requests for prayer for xyz (usually for some one to get well). I've been wanting to post a response asking if maybe it IS gods will that granma dies - but I don't want to sound like an ass, so I have kept quiet because I learn a lot there about photography but it just PISSES me OFF that this kind of stuff goes un noticed adn un challenged all the time. .

[Cainkane1]

Isn't it mainly only in the American South that it's like that?
No my father was from california and he would raise Hell at me when I argued with him about religion.

[justcharlie09]

I belong to a photo forum that has serious rules about staying on topic and not talking politics etc - yet on a weekly basise there are people posing requests for prayer for xyz (usually for some one to get well). I've been wanting to post a response asking if maybe it IS gods will that granma dies - but I don't want to sound like an ass, so I have kept quiet because I learn a lot there about photography but it just PISSES me OFF that this kind of stuff goes un noticed adn un challenged all the time. .

The problem I have with the whole idea of "pray for a miracle" is...what happens when grandma dies anyway? And how long is God expected to keep your grandma going, anyway, if she's 90+ years old?

I really don't understand the God as short-order-cook philosophy behind praying for someone in that way. I got into it over this when helping with religious instruction. This little girl (about 7 or so years old) went up to teacher...

"Teacher, my grandma is dying, will God save her?"

"Pray really hard and she'll be fine sweetie."

Then what? Grandma dies and the girl is left wondering if it's because she didn't "pray hard enough"? :mad:

Prayer, as I understand it, is NOT a request line. If it were, then to answer prayers God would have to repeal the laws of nature that God set in motion every second of every day to please the believers making the requests.

//end rant.

[Baby Nemesis]

I'm of the belief that the best way to argue is to show the advantages of your position as opposed to the weakness of the opposing ones. Much more difficult to do in this particular case since we can point out how silly their beliefs all day long. My major point in the strength of my argument was lifted from Penn Jillette: If god exists, why is there suffering? Because he is punishing or testing us, or has some incomprehensible higher plan. No matter why, there is no reason to suspect god will ever stop suffering, because we are imperfect beings. By believing there is no god, that allows hope that some day we can end suffering.

The gist was lifted from this article from Mr Jillette here:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5015557

Atheists might also do well to think about what's nice about atheism and try to entice people into it, rather than trying to ridicule and scorn others' beliefs. :D

The position you describe re suffering, though a good place to start in a debate, seems to assume there won't be an answer. One ready come-back, albeit only a partial one, is that while God may have allowed suffering, he also allowed the development of millions of people who can help relieve it, or help to stop much of it starting in the first place, given that a lot of it is man-made, and that Christianity teaches that it's up to everyone to do something in life to help with that. Given the number of Christian charities working to relieve suffering around the world, there does seem to be a lot of hope in Christian circles that something substantial can be done about it.

So while that might be a good topic of debate to bring up, it shouldn't be assumed that there can't be a reasonable response. That also goes for a lot of other things. Being over-confident could antagonise the opposition and backfire on you if you over-estimate what you know.

[RandFan]

I'm of the belief that the best way to argue is to show the advantages of your position as opposed to the weakness of the opposing ones. I'm of the belief that diverse people require diverse responses.

[RandFan]

So while that might be a good topic of debate to bring up, it shouldn't be assumed that there can't be a reasonable response.That's fair. But to be sure there as yet hasn't been a reasonable response.

One ready come-back, albeit only a partial one, is that while God may have allowed suffering, he also allowed the development of millions of people who can help relieve it, or help to stop much of it starting in the first place, given that a lot of it is man-made, and that Christianity teaches that it's up to everyone to do something in life to help with that. I can't accept this as reasonable because it absolves god of responsibility. I can't slap my child around in the hopes that his buddies will comfort him.

[justcharlie09]

Atheists might also do well to think about what's nice about atheism and try to entice people into it, rather than trying to ridicule and scorn others' beliefs. :D

This is the line of argument I've taken with Christian evangelicals, too. If you want to be heard, be nice.

I was chatting about this with some friends saying, "You know, you'd think they'd see that you get more flies with honey like they say..."

Then one of the people I was talking to said, "Ugh, I hate that saying. You do realized flies don't care so much for honey. You know what really attracts flies? Think about it."

:blush:

[tsig]

Atheists might also do well to think about what's nice about atheism and try to entice people into it, rather than trying to ridicule and scorn others' beliefs. :D

The position you describe re suffering, though a good place to start in a debate, seems to assume there won't be an answer. One ready come-back, albeit only a partial one, is that while God may have allowed suffering, he also allowed the development of millions of people who can help relieve it, or help to stop much of it starting in the first place, given that a lot of it is man-made, and that Christianity teaches that it's up to everyone to do something in life to help with that. Given the number of Christian charities working to relieve suffering around the world, there does seem to be a lot of hope in Christian circles that something substantial can be done about it.

So while that might be a good topic of debate to bring up, it shouldn't be assumed that there can't be a reasonable response. That also goes for a lot of other things. Being over-confident could antagonise the opposition and backfire on you if you over-estimate what you know.

deleted

[SonOfLaertes]

Isn't it mainly only in the American South that it's like that?

The Middle-Atlantic and New England states are the most populous in the US by far, and while many people are deeply religious I
rarely get into any arguments about religion. Most people around here find religion to be more of a personal thing. You can always find an argument if you look for it, mind you, and there are quick-tempered fundamentalists anywhere, but religion rarely intrudes itself into public life in this part of the country.

Many people are deeply religious in the American Mid-West, but most are just too damn nice to get in a lather.

And barring exceptions such as that related by a previous poster on this thread, the American far West - California, Washington, Oregon, in particular - may be the most irreligious part of this country.

So, yeah, it's mostly in the South that one would find intrusive religious beliefs. The people in the South are also generally polite and well-mannered as well, though, so a situation handled with tact will generally deliver a peaceable resolution.

I'm generalizing to a degree so please understand that I know exceptions exist in all cases.

Yelling and screaming can always be found on internet forums, politically-charged debates, and television. Here is where I believe that most foreigners get a view of American religious discourse that is skewed towards fanaticism.

[SezMe]

Isn't it mainly only in the American South that it's like that?

And barring exceptions such as that related by a previous poster on this thread, the American far West - California, Washington, Oregon, in particular - may be the most irreligious part of this country.
Don't forget Greater Utah.

[justcharlie09]

The Middle-Atlantic and New England states are the most populous in the US by far, and while many people are deeply religious I
rarely get into any arguments about religion. Most people around here find religion to be more of a personal thing. You can always find an argument if you look for it, mind you, and there are quick-tempered fundamentalists anywhere, but religion rarely intrudes itself into public life in this part of the country.

Many people are deeply religious in the American Mid-West, but most are just too damn nice to get in a lather.

And barring exceptions such as that related by a previous poster on this thread, the American far West - California, Washington, Oregon, in particular - may be the most irreligious part of this country.

So, yeah, it's mostly in the South that one would find intrusive religious beliefs. The people in the South are also generally polite and well-mannered as well, though, so a situation handled with tact will generally deliver a peaceable resolution.

I'm generalizing to a degree so please understand that I know exceptions exist in all cases.

Yelling and screaming can always be found on internet forums, politically-charged debates, and television. Here is where I believe that most foreigners get a view of American religious discourse that is skewed towards fanaticism.

I would argue that it depends on the specific community. There are pockets of wild-eyed-looney-birds all over these United States. I have lived in New England, the South, and the West. Unfortunately, I moved into one of aforementioned "pockets" unwittingly.

I will say, that my experience of New Englad was that highly populated areas were education levels were higher tended to yield a better experience and fewer brushes with the United State's species of wild-eyed-looney bird.

[Darth Rotor]

I'm starting to lose patience.

Then work on that. The rest of your interpersonal problems will likely be solved.

DR

[Darth Rotor]

Kill all the gods and let dog sort it out:D:D!!!!

He'll just lick his balls, and look for something to piss on. :cool:

(I miss my dog, a lot).

[bruto]

As some of you might know I recently quit the seminary as an atheist. I went in as an atheist for the purpose of investigation. However my threshold seemed to be a lot lower than I thought.

Honestly it was a shock to me as an atheist to realize in this setting how intolerant of what I consider blatant and willful stupidity and intellectual dishonesty in discussing the bible as a source of divine inspiration.

Since some of my good friends understand my journey I am normally open minded about other people's beliefs. However at a recent dinner at which a friend asked us to take a moment of silence to pray for her sick grandmother I was unnerved.

I remember debating for quite some time a thread regarding prayer over dinner on Unexplained Mysteries. I was very much of the point of view that a momentary silence was something to be sat through in silence. I did this for my friend but then the conversation turned to her constantly questioning why I didn't believe in God.

And of course the old mantra that if I didn't believe in god the truth was that I believed in god I just called it something else.

I am completely convinced at this point that there is no God and when people begin to argue that I can't prove that there is no God I begin to get annoyed.

My argument is that I can prove that the Christian God and the Muslim God and the Abrahamic God are not real. No more real than Zeus. And I return to my mantra that God is not the catchphrase solve all of "Well whatever that THING is that we don't know, that's God!!"

To me that is a ridiculous statement. The God that is claimed by these religions has specific attributes.

There is no need to disprove this god since religion itself does it quite neatly> Documentary Hypothesis anyone?

I'm starting to lose patience.

By the end of the dinner the other atheist confronted my friend with her "jamming her beliefs down my throat."

And so I checked her on her asking for prayer which seemed to totally stun her as something offensive to do.

It is the first time in a long time I've been asked to pray for someone. I'm surprised at my own vitriol.

It's a prickly situation, and I suspect, from reading some of your past posts, that you're a blunt person who has some difficulty with diplomacy, especially when wound up. Given that, I think the only real social solution to this problem is to state at the outset when such questions arise that you do not want to get into this, do not want to discuss religion at a social occasion, and say outright that it always leads to trouble. If you're going to be blunt and honest, start by being blunt and honest about your own temperament, and make it clear that you do not want to get into a fight. If they're good enough friends, and want your company, they'll understand and back off. If not, and if you don't want to alienate them further, I would suggest you politely but firmly step out, either from the room or the entire event, because someone is pulling your chain. If you have difficulty controlling yourself once the argument starts, you must control its occurrence. If you can't or won't do this, then consider the possibility that you really relish the fight, and if so, you have no complaint when it happens, only when you lose. So arm yourself well and pick up the guantlet.

[ORUgrad]

Religion is the most effective means known to destroy a person's faith life.

There, fixed that for ya. :)

[pakeha]

...Or maybe it's just the studio lighting Mr. Deity is using.

(BTW, if you aren't familiar with Mr. Deity, you've gotta check it out:

http://www.youtube.com/user/misterdeity )

Yes, these guys can lighten up my day sometimes.
mr deity and the messages
mr deity and the really big favor
mr deity and the scripts

Great stuff.

Other days, Brother Sam Singleton.

[Hux]

[QUOTE=Darth Rotor;5311439]He'll just lick his balls, and look for something to piss on. :cool:

Sounds a lot like Yahweh?

[Fnord]

Fnord, I couldn't agree with you more. It's a forehead-to-palm experience followed by an "Oh, no, please tell me they didn't...they did? Oh, ugh...sigh"

I can't tell you HOW many times I've gotten into arguments with "believers" about this point. Every time I say "Don't you get it? You're NOT evangelizing for God, you're making all sorts of points in favor of the notion that religious people are rabid idiots in general!" :(

Nope, they don't get it. Don't want to get it, either. So embarassing.

Try getting the point across that "Religion is the most effective means known to destroy a person's faith" during a term as church elder! I have one more year to go, one more year to try to convince people that religion is its own worst enemy, regardless of what anyone believes in.

Some folks are so blinded by the rules of the game that they forget all about why they came to play.

[justcharlie09]

Try getting the point across that "Religion is the most effective means known to destroy a person's faith" during a term as church elder! I have one more year to go, one more year to try to convince people that religion is its own worst enemy, regardless of what anyone believes in.

Some folks are so blinded by the rules of the game that they forget all about why they came to play.

No thanks, I'll pass. I can imagine, but that's as close as I'll get.

I've been asked by people (liberal, very liberal people since I'm female and women pastor/priests/preachers etc. are still far from the norm) if I've ever considered going to seminary and becoming a preacher of some sort. Truth is, the thought crossed my mind and quickly died out. I don't have the kind of endurance required for beating my head against walls with the regularity required for that profession.

Well, good luck with that. It's worth a shot. You never know, you might get through to one or two people on the way. That's a step in the right direction. The majority will still probably be lost in the wilderness, though. Most folks seem to inhabit a mental landscape in which "if you don't believe like I do, then you must be crazy, damned or both"... *shrug* It's in the wiring, I guess.

[blobru]

This is very much the kind of faith I like. As an atheist, of course, I think you're wrong...

Thanks. Well, one way too look at it: we'll both know for sure who was right when we're dead. Of course, that will be a little late to have a discussion on the JREF forum about it. :D (meant as a joke only--don't insert any serious into that statement at all PLEASE)...


It's a bet. Loser buys the drinks. :Banane35:

If I win... worm smoothie (lotsa protein!) :dig:

If you win... mmm, it'll have to be one of those drinks you set on fire, I guess. For me, at least. :flamed:

[justcharlie09]

It's a bet. Loser buys the drinks. :Banane35:

If I win... worm smoothie (lotsa protein!) :dig:

If you win... mmm, it'll have to be one of those drinks you set on fire, I guess. For me, at least. :flamed:

Well, of any of the members of my former parish were right, might have to be a hot one for me, too. :eye-poppi :D

[blobru]

Well, of any of the members of my former parish were right, might have to be a hot one for me, too. :eye-poppi :D


They say the flaming B-52's in Hades are to die for :alc: (quite reasonable too; mind you, it's the calculating a tip you gotta watch out for).

[CurtC]

I belong to a photo forum that has serious rules about staying on topic and not talking politics etc - yet on a weekly basise there are people posing requests for prayer for xyz (usually for some one to get well). I've been wanting to post a response asking if maybe it IS gods will that granma dies - but I don't want to sound like an ass, so I have kept quiet because I learn a lot there about photography but it just PISSES me OFF that this kind of stuff goes un noticed adn un challenged all the time. .

When it happens, simply reply politely that you've sacrificed a chicken or goat for that person.

[Foster Zygote]

Well, one way too look at it: we'll both know for sure who was right when we're dead.

Actually, you'll both know if you are correct. If Blobru is correct he won't even be able to accuse you of weaseling out of the bet. ;)

[truethat]

Sorry I haven't been back to this thread. I had unexpected guests.

The comments here are helpful except for Baby Nemesis's comments which strike me as foolish. Of course my comments are going to be unsual as an atheist that went to seminary I mean DUH. On top of this, what "unusual experiences" Most people call me a closet Christian because I'm so lenient and sympathetic to Christian faith.
Stop talking nonsense here, I means seriously.

As for what Randfan said, I think this understanding of what I am saying is more accurate. Don't try to bob back and forth in dialogue between biblical testimony and faith. If you are going to use the argument that faith is about the unknown, then don't try to explain the bible or God to me because you are basically talking out your ass. Unknown mystery explanation is an oxymoron.

You don't have to dive into conspiracy theories in order to understand that the bible is flawed and speaks of different writers. Take a look at the creation accounts in Genesis 1 and 2 and you can see the different stories.

At the same time I very much agree with the problem in this habit of "renaming" or "sweeping into the god pile" everything we don't understand.

The universe is "the universe" not god

The unknown mystery of existence is "the unknown mystery of existence" not god

Aliens that came down and seeded the planet are "aliens that came down and seeded the planet" not God


I'm so sick and tired of intellectual wimps who have turned from the errors in religion to try to bolster the "god theory" by making it mean something else when it doesn't mean something else. Something else means something else.

Grr

[Baby Nemesis]

The comments here are helpful except for Baby Nemesis's comments which strike me as foolish. Of course my comments are going to be unsual as an atheist
that went to seminary I mean DUH. On top of this, what "unusual experiences" Most people call me a closet Christian because I'm so lenient and sympathetic to Christian faith. Stop talking nonsense here, I means seriously.

:confused: Who said anything about your behaviour being unusual? I didn't. Is it really that unusual to be an atheist in America? That sounds weird when you're from a country where it isn't the least bit unusual, like me. In Britain, atheists and Christians live happily side by side with rarely a cross word between them. ... Or something like that. There aren't the issues I've heard there are in America anyway. I never knew their were rabid atheists, and I'd never even heard the word fundy, till I started posting on Internet forums.

Is it true that in America, atheist doctors and business owners often don't like to declare themselves atheists in case they get boycotted?

... Ah, silly me, you're talking about the unusualness of an atheist being in seminary. :D It still has no relevance to what I said. I was talking about an atheist on a course who simply related to the Christians much better than it seems you did, which was my point - that it does seem it's possible.

You know, truethat, it's funny, but you seem to contradict yourself in your posts. At one and the same time, you insist you went to seminary because, not being an angry atheist, and respecting these people of faith, you sincerely wanted to find out more about their views, because you wanted to know what reasoning there was behind them. You thought they must surely have good reasons for them, so you wanted to know more about the theological thinking that led to them holding the views they did.

How nice!

But we have a direct contradiction! At the same time, only in different posts, you say their beliefs are a whole heap of nonsense - no doubt about that whatsoever. You say how is it possible for any reasonable person to believe what those people do! Can't they see it's all myth and redacted foolishness? Can't they see the Bible has been thoroughly discredited by scholars and so you can't see why they would ever teach what they did?

How do you explain this apparent direct contradiction in your attitude?

I found a post from you not long ago where you suggested you were brimming with confidence about your diagnosis that the one and only reason people believed in such things was because it brought them peace. Simple as that! You said, in so many words, that you could understand that they weren't as equipped to deal with the world as tough atheists like yourself so you didn't want to be harsh on them. :D That struck me as rather condescending, not to mention simplistic.

I could find quotes from you if I wanted to that would strongly suggest that you alienated many people in that seminary not because they were insecure in their faith - although that might have been part of it, but because you assumed what they were saying was nonsense and were out to prove it to them, asking questions not out of a sincere wish to know, but out of an attitude of contemptuous superiority. If you weren't, your tone might have given that impression without you intending to. It's the impression I got.

I may be judging too harshly here - after all, I've only ever taken quick glances at those threads. But that was the impression I got from the few posts I read.

And then you go to a meal where someone's grandmother has just died, and they want a minute or two's silence, and that evening has to be the very time you choose to foist your anger on them!! No thought of waiting for a less emotional moment, it would seem! Perhaps the reason we haven't had more of the usual crowd of theist-bashing atheists doing their stuff in this thread is because they themselves are struck by the tactlessness of your timing. I'm not szaying I think it was all your fault. I expect the people you were with said some stupid things as well. But what I would suggest is that you don't put all the blame on them. I feel sure both sides must have been at fault.

I linked to that atheist's review of that Alpha course where despite all his controversial questions he got on very well with the Christians to the end, to illustrate that surely when someone has the patience and tact, it can be done. You feel sure you're sympathetic to Christians, but the tone of your posts doesn't bear that out. It might not be your fault. Most people probably just don't realise how they come across a lot of the time. There's a book called Little Angels by a child psychologist who did a BBC television series where she helped several parents with toddlers they were having problems with. She says in the book that often the behaviour of the parents is what causes their children to act up, and one thing she does to help them realise it is to record them interacting with their children. They're often surprised by how horrible they sound. The book says:

For the families it was like having a mirror held up to themselves, where they could see how their own behaviour and reactions to their child were part of the problem. Suddenly they were able to see how they were often locked in patterns of behaviour of which they had previously been unaware. For many, watching a tape of themselves was a moment of truth, when suddenly they could see how their own behaviour was affecting that of their child. Typical was the moment when Brian Christie realized how much he was shouting at his son Matthew, and when Vicki Wells saw that her constant nagging was actually making her son Oliver behave worse.

I've little idea of what RandFan said because I put him on ignore recently along with four other Americans and a bellowing belligerent of indeterminate origin, so if you'd like me to know, spell it out. It's safer to have some people on ignore on this forum. I mean, ... We wouldn't want something this cringeworthy to happen again, now would we! (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=156055) :D Better to take temptation out of the way.

... don't try to explain the bible or God to me because you
are basically talking out your ass.

I'm not sure if you were paraphrasing RandFan or putting forward your own ideas here, but is that your idea of "lenient and sympathetic"? :lol2: Is that how you spoke to people at the meal? Can't you understand why they might have got irritated? Nobody likes to be spoken to like that. Do you? ... If you do, then stop complaining about what I said to you, when all I did was praise another atheist for their tact and intelligence.

My argument is that I can prove that the Christian God and the Muslim God and the Abrahamic God are not real. No more real than Zeus. And I return to my
mantra that God is not the catchphrase solve all of "Well whatever that THING is that we don't know, that's God!!"

To me that is a ridiculous statement. The God that is claimed by these religions has specific attributes.

There is no need to disprove this god since religion itself does it quite neatly> Documentary Hypothesis anyone?

That's the be-all-and-end-all, is it? :)

You see what I mean about the tone of what you say and what you say itself seeming to contradict other statements you've made about genuinely not believing you have all the answers and wanting to know more, being respectful of the beliefs?

I don't understand most of the rest of your post that well, because I've never known anyone to say that anything they don't understand must be God. I thought that idea went out with the Middle Ages.

[RandFan]

I've little idea of what RandFan said because I put him on ignore recently...No surprise there given Baby's inability to follow a simple line of argument or actually deal with the consequences of spouting nonsense. Some people shouldn't be in a forum that demands skepticism and critical thinking.

[Darat]

Posts dumped to AAH - drop the personalisations and Rule 12 breaches. If you can't post without breaching your Membership Agreement don't post/

[Jontg]

Quit being so militant. We're in the vast overwhelming minority and thats the way its going to stay. Don't try to argue. You can discuss things with a believer but be prepared for threats of HAIL FAR and such. Its not always safe to argue with a believer. They can get shrill and violent. You're trying too hard.
...
I think I just had a Moment. It was like news footage from the mid-sixties, the sounds of rioting crowds and gospel hymns, snippets of speeches and U2 lyrics all crashing through my head at once in this second-long burst of data, coupled with the urge to reach through the computer screen and smack you. And then maybe blow something up.
For ****'s sake, haven't we learned what happens when you think like this? You expect us to lie down and let the believers walk all over us? Smile and take it like good little heretics? Or is our mere presence enough of a hassle that we should just try and pass? Stay in the closet and hide the fact that we're sane as if it were something to be ashamed of? Yes, he's drawing all the parallels you think he's drawing, and yes, he's justified--we're Crazy, we're Evil, we're Sick and Wrong, and we're conspiring to Corrupt the Children and Poison the Fatherland. It's our fault the economy collapsed, it's our fault the crime rate is so high, and did you know Bad Person Here was one of us?
:soapbox