IDF Soldier shoots peaceful protesters - including Israeli

[a_unique_person]

Another incidence of the IDF shooting at targets that present no threat. More proof that elements of the IDF deliberately target unarmed civilians posing no threat.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/12/28/1072546410304.html



Meanwhile, in response to another military action, the Israeli military chief of staff, Lieutenant-General Moshe Yaalon, said he had ordered an investigation of troops who opened fire on Friday on Israeli and international activists protesting against a separation barrier Israel is building around the West Bank.

An Israeli man was seriously injured and an American woman was slightly wounded in the incident, Israeli officials said.

[Otther]

Huh? What? This isn't compatable with my worldview. I thought that most of the IDF had doubts, and felt bad about what they are doing... :(

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Another incidence of the IDF shooting at targets that present no threat. More proof that elements of the IDF deliberately target unarmed civilians posing no threat.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/12/28/1072546410304.html



You know you should apply for JREF prize because in the article it says they just opened an investigation but you already found out -- somehow, I'm assuming psychic methods since you are nowhere near Israel -- that it was deliberate targeting of civilians posing no threat. Wow I meant just wow.

[Troll]

Originally posted by Otther
Huh? What? This isn't compatable with my worldview. I thought that most of the IDF had doubts, and felt bad about what they are doing... :(

Dude, are you trying to make AUP think about other things he's said and take him to task on his inconsistency when he speaks of the IDF? Do you realize the size of the task you are undertaking here? Good luck.

[boomer6]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Another incidence of the IDF shooting at targets that present no threat. More proof that elements of the IDF deliberately target unarmed civilians posing no threat.




Your right!, that just looks like a Nerf Ball that little child has in his hands.

[Otther]

Dude, are you trying to make AUP think about other things he's said and take him to task on his inconsistency when he speaks of the IDF? Do you realize the size of the task you are undertaking here?

Heh... it's obviously not as clear cut as that... and to be truthful I quit reading that thread somewhere before the 3rd page. I just found it amusing.


one of dozens of clashes between tanks and other Israeli armoured vehicles and groups of boys and young men hurling stones and petrol bombs. Damn the IDF! How dare they fight back... lord knows the odds of a petrol bomb actual doing lethal damage is SURELY less than 1 in 17....

[Troll]

Originally posted by Otther


Heh... it's obviously not as clear cut as that... and to be truthful I quit reading that thread somewhere before the 3rd page. I just found it amusing.


Damn the IDF! How dare they fight back... lord knows the odds of a petrol bomb actual doing lethal damage is SURELY less than 1 in 17....

Aw man, you beat me to it. I was just ready to paste that petrol bomb part here. I tip my hat to your observations and speed of posting.

:th:

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Otther
Huh? What? This isn't compatable with my worldview. I thought that most of the IDF had doubts, and felt bad about what they are doing... :(

The IDF is made up of individuals, some of whom are questioning their role.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Grammatron


You know you should apply for JREF prize because in the article it says they just opened an investigation but you already found out -- somehow, I'm assuming psychic methods since you are nowhere near Israel -- that it was deliberate targeting of civilians posing no threat. Wow I meant just wow.

I am only going on the results of past investigations, which appear to find no fault with the IDF.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Otther


Heh... it's obviously not as clear cut as that... and to be truthful I quit reading that thread somewhere before the 3rd page. I just found it amusing.


Damn the IDF! How dare they fight back... lord knows the odds of a petrol bomb actual doing lethal damage is SURELY less than 1 in 17....

This was a different protest where the Isreali was shot for protesting peacefully.

[Troll]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


This was a different protest where the Isreali was shot for protesting peacefully.

Which you claim is proof that the IDF deliberately targets unarmed civilians. Yet there is no proof given just the story of what some saw and that it is being investigated. So, while you are entitled to your opinion, you cannot use your opinion as proof.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


I am only going on the results of past investigations, which appear to find no fault with the IDF.

So there is no way it is possible that these soldiers are innocent as there is no way it is possible the past soldiers were not guilty?

Why are you racist against Israelis?

[Otther]

This was a different protest where the Isreali was shot for protesting peacefully. Perhaps you should've started the thread with a link specifically about that incident. Seems like a good solid idea to me. :D

The IDF is made up of individuals, some of whom are questioning their role. Absolutely! Which is why I said to troll that it really wasn't a simple thing, and your statements were not clearly contradictory. However... since we're speaking of that thread, didn't you assert that the dissenting parts of the IDF were larger than the pro-Isreal folks here were suggesting? Seems odd none of them are speaking out about this, nor that there are no stories of them refusing to get involved or whatnot.

And while it's not directly linked to the one incident you care to talk about, I found this interesting...
A Nablus resident said, "Clashes are taking place all over the city. The whole city is a battlefield."
The whole city is a battlefield. Naturally, this is referring to the incident where the pallys were innocently defending themselves against the Jews, and not just Jews killing pallys for fun. But it seems relevant because on a battlefield, everyone not wearing your color is an enemy. Hell, I'm willing to concede that the IDF is responsible for turning the area into a battlefield... but understand that the battlefield isn't just the city.

There is no imaginary line where foes throwing bombs at your tank magically switch to innocent civilians. Had you actually linked to the article about the incident you care to talk about, I probably would be able to show that they were relatively near each other. And that in the mind of the soldiers, the battlefield's span was farther than just the city. Sadly, I cannot do that. So I just care to mention again the bigger point that since the entirety of Israeli territory is a battlefield, it would stand to reason that most of the Pally territory would be so as well.

[Skeptic]

You know you should apply for JREF prize because in the article it says they just opened an investigation but you already found out -- somehow, I'm assuming psychic methods since you are nowhere near Israel -- that it was deliberate targeting of civilians posing no threat. Wow I meant just wow.

That's AUP modus operandi. He is really good in finding out the "real reasons" for every incident--e.g., it's the jews' fault--by the psychic method of looking at web pages.

By the way, there is a bit of a difference here... when something like this happens in israel, an ivestigation is launched to see if anybody's at fault; when the arabs kill jews, on the other hand, it's dancing-in-the-street time.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Skeptic
You know you should apply for JREF prize because in the article it says they just opened an investigation but you already found out -- somehow, I'm assuming psychic methods since you are nowhere near Israel -- that it was deliberate targeting of civilians posing no threat. Wow I meant just wow.

That's AUP modus operandi. He is really good in finding out the "real reasons" for every incident--e.g., it's the jews' fault--by the psychic method of looking at web pages.

By the way, there is a bit of a difference here... when something like this happens in israel, an ivestigation is launched to see if anybody's at fault; when the arabs kill jews, on the other hand, it's dancing-in-the-street time.

That was my point exactly, it was the Jews fault for protesting peacefully.

[NullPointerException]

Can't get what you want be voting in a fair election? Protest in the streets!:(

[The Fool]

Originally posted by NullPointerException
Can't get what you want be voting in a fair election? Protest in the streets!:(
Can you expand on your problem with free speech?

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Otther
Huh? What? This isn't compatable with my worldview. I thought that most of the IDF had doubts, and felt bad about what they are doing... :(

I think they probably do feel bad. Soldiers do thier job. After the shooting is over is when they find that the enemy body is a child.... Do I blame the poor bastards sent to do this job? No...Do I blame the ********* that send them? you guess........

[Troll]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


That was my point exactly, it was the Jews fault for protesting peacefully.

Really? Seemed more like a "jews fault for shooting" thing you had here. what happened to the christians that shared the blame? Or did you drop them so you could focus on the jews alone, per usual?

But hey, you can't be a bigot, because Fool ain't called you one and apparently he's the leading authority

[Cleon]

Apparently IDF soldiers do feel at least some regret:

Israeli soldier sorry for not shooting Arab

By Khalid Amayreh

Wednesday 31 December 2003, 10:03 Makka Time, 7:03 GMT

An Israeli soldier who three days ago mistakenly shot and seriously wounded a Jewish demonstrator in the northern West Bank has told interrogators he thought he was shooting a Palestinian, not a Jew.

“I am sorry, I never thought I was shooting at Jews, I would never shoot a Jew,” the soldier reportedly said.

(Full article at http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/D342216D-4EA6-4327-9E39-886A10C88C26.htm )

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by The Fool


I think they probably do feel bad. Soldiers do thier job. After the shooting is over is when they find that the enemy body is a child.... Do I blame the poor bastards sent to do this job? No...Do I blame the ********* that send them? you guess........

What the Fool really means:
Soldiers do their job,... they kill children. (A dirty job, but someone's gotta do it!) Since they kill innocent children, some small percentage of them may feel remorse. Therefore they are not evil incarnate, just remote controlled drones.

Soldiers merely mindlessly obey their evil overlords who order them to kill children. This makes them "Poor Bastards"

Therefore, in Fool-speak, a democratically elected politician attempting to use his military resources to intercept suicidal murderers, and save the lives of the bus-riding public, becomes one of: "The *********" that send in the mindless child-killers.

One question; "What color is the sky on your planet, Fool?"

-z

BTW: Happy New Year, ya dag!! ;)

[The Fool]

Originally posted by rikzilla


What the Fool really means:
Soldiers do their job,... they kill children. (A dirty job, but someone's gotta do it!) Since they kill innocent children, some small percentage of them may feel remorse. Therefore they are not evil incarnate, just remote controlled drones.

Soldiers merely mindlessly obey their evil overlords who order them to kill children. This makes them "Poor Bastards"

Therefore, in Fool-speak, a democratically elected politician attempting to use his military resources to intercept suicidal murderers, and save the lives of the bus-riding public, becomes one of: "The *********" that send in the mindless child-killers.

One question; "What color is the sky on your planet, Fool?"

-z

BTW: Happy New Year, ya dag!! ;)


"Soldiers merely mindlessly obey their evil overlords who order them to kill children."

Don't be wanker rik. How about you start by explaining how you cooked this strawman up from what I posted...

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Troll


Really? Seemed more like a "jews fault for shooting" thing you had here. what happened to the christians that shared the blame? Or did you drop them so you could focus on the jews alone, per usual?

But hey, you can't be a bigot, because Fool ain't called you one and apparently he's the leading authority
Hmmmm, you mention me in every second post...could this be love?

[boomer6]

Standing in the face of a crazy child (regardless of their age) who is determined to kill you, what would you do?


click (http://www.pmw.org.il/new/ASK%20FOR%20DEATH.htm)

These kids need more help then we or any soldier can provide.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by boomer6
Standing in the face of a crazy child (regardless of their age) who is determined to kill you, what would you do?


click (http://www.pmw.org.il/new/ASK%20FOR%20DEATH.htm)

These kids need more help then we or any soldier can provide.
If I was attacked by someone trying to kill me, who had the means to kill me...I would defend myself and shoot them....are you suggesting the children being killed in the violence in palestine are crazed killers? look out! he's got a rock!!!

[Skeptic]

are you suggesting the children being killed in the violence in palestine are crazed killers?

You know what the most popular trading card is among palestinian children right now? Those bearing the pictures of suicide bombers. The more jews the bomber killed, the more valuable his card.

Ever seen the palestinian version of "sesame Street"? A five-year-old explains to a group of other children, and to the palestinian version of big bird &co., that his goal in life is to grow up to be a suicide bomber who kills as many jews as possible.

Do you know how jews are portrayed in the palestinian authority textbooks? As pigs and dogs, the spawn of Satan, whose killing at every opprtunity should be the goal of every good palestinian child.

The palestinian authority has summer camps for children--named after suicide bombers, in which children learn how to use machine guns and other weapons to kill the jews.

So, while it certainly not the case that all palestinian children are crazed killers of jews, it's quite clear that turning them into one is the main goal of palestinian education.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Skeptic
are you suggesting the children being killed in the violence in palestine are crazed killers?

You know what the most popular trading card is among palestinian children right now? Those bearing the pictures of suicide bombers. The more jews the bomber killed, the more valuable his card.

Ever seen the palestinian version of "sesame Street"? A five-year-old explains to a group of other children, and to the palestinian version of big bird &co., that his goal in life is to grow up to be a suicide bomber who kills as many jews as possible.

Do you know how jews are portrayed in the palestinian authority textbooks? As pigs and dogs, the spawn of Satan, whose killing at every opprtunity should be the goal of every good palestinian child.

The palestinian authority has summer camps for children--named after suicide bombers, in which children learn how to use machine guns and other weapons to kill the jews.

So, while it certainly not the case that all palestinian children are crazed killers of jews, it's quite clear that turning them into one is the main goal of palestinian education.

So lets see how effective you think this "main goal" of the palestinian education system is....what proportion of palestinian children killed by the IDF were "crazed killers"?

[boomer6]

Originally posted by The Fool


So lets see how effective you think this "main goal" of the palestinian education system is....what proportion of palestinian children killed by the IDF were "crazed killers"?


I don’t know, but neither do you. How many will grow up into suicide bombers? Once again, I do not know. But a child throwing rocks today might throw bombs tomorrow. What’s important is not WHAT they are throwing, but that they ARE throwing something. If that child had a nuclear bomb, I am sure that he would not stop and say “Hey! Rocks are one thing, but this is entirely something different”. If they had the weapons, they would use them. That is what is important. (That it is burned into their mind to kill Jews).

Peace will come to the Middle East when the Palestinians love their children more than they hate the Jews. (That statement was spoken in the 60’s)

[The Fool]

Originally posted by boomer6



I don’t know, but neither do you. How many will grow up into suicide bombers? Once again, I do not know. But a child throwing rocks today might throw bombs tomorrow.

or he may stop throwing rocks if the occupying army goes home.


What’s important is not WHAT they are throwing, but that they ARE throwing something. If that child had a nuclear bomb, I am sure that he would not stop and say “Hey! Rocks are one thing, but this is entirely something different”. If they had the weapons, they would use them. That is what is important. (That it is burned into their mind to kill Jews).

The point I was making was that a child throwing rocks is not a threat that justifies shooting them.




Peace will come to the Middle East when the Palestinians love their children more than they hate the Jews. (That statement was spoken in the 60’s)

where's the bit about them having to accept the foreign army of occupation, or do they have to learn to love them too? The statement that Palestinians do not love thier children is just plain crap, typical dehumanising propaganda crap.... Palestinians love thier children just the same Israelis or any other Humans of any nationality love thier children. In WW1 the british were told the hun ate babies...do you believe that line too?

[Cleon]

Originally posted by The Fool
where's the bit about them having to accept the foreign army of occupation, or do they have to learn to love them too? The statement that Palestinians do not love thier children is just plain crap, typical dehumanising propaganda crap.... Palestinians love thier children just the same Israelis or any other Humans of any nationality love thier children. In WW1 the british were told the hun ate babies...do you believe that line too?

:clap: :clap: :clap:

[boomer6]

Originally posted by The Fool

or he may stop throwing rocks if the occupying army goes home.


It was the throwing of “rocks” or shall I say an invasion that caused the Israelis to “occupy” in the first place. How convenient to say the Palestinians have a right to be mad because the Israelis decided to occupy an area, to have a buffer, between them and the Arabs. Before the “occupation” what were the Arab’s Reasons for hating the Jews?
Oh, I am sure you will have some reason, and of course it will be the Jews fault.

Originally posted by The Fool
The point I was making was that a child throwing rocks is not a threat that justifies shooting them.

Throwing rocks does not justify shooting children. However, I do not believe that an IDF soldier walks up and shoots an unarmed child. You live in a world where all you see are images that look like this.

perfect little babbies (http://www.palestinemonitor.org/gallery/Childrens_gallery.htm)

I can see the other side.
Nice gun (http://www.bambili.com/b_gallery/gallery_pics.asp?pic_sivug_id=31)

Having been in a war myself, looking at everyone as a possible enemy, I can relate to the fact that a situation might develop where a few children start throwing rocks and then within the same crowd of children, someone stats shooting from within that same group. (maybe a child, maybe an adult) What are you to do? Hindsight is always 20/20.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by boomer6
Originally posted by The Fool

or he may stop throwing rocks if the occupying army goes home.


It was the throwing of “rocks” or shall I say an invasion that caused the Israelis to “occupy” in the first place. How convenient to say the Palestinians have a right to be mad because the Israelis decided to occupy an area, to have a buffer, between them and the Arabs. Before the “occupation” what were the Arab’s Reasons for hating the Jews?

Before the Israelis started occupying peoples land I'm not sure any arabs "hated" them. Do you know of any arab "Hatred" before the zionist occupations started?



Oh, I am sure you will have some reason, and of course it will be the Jews fault.

I'm sure all the arabs just spontameously started to hate zionists for no reason whatsoever...



Originally posted by The Fool
[B]The point I was making was that a child throwing rocks is not a threat that justifies shooting them.



Throwing rocks does not justify shooting children. However, I do not believe that an IDF soldier walks up and shoots an unarmed child. You live in a world where all you see are images that look like this.

I made the point earlier that I don't blame israeli soldiers for thier individual situations. An occupying army and a resisting civilian population has always equaled dead children... I blane Sharon...pure and simple, he, and his cronies are criminally responsible.

perfect little babbies (http://www.palestinemonitor.org/gallery/Childrens_gallery.htm)

I can see the other side.
Nice gun (http://www.bambili.com/b_gallery/gallery_pics.asp?pic_sivug_id=31)

Having been in a war myself, looking at everyone as a possible enemy, I can relate to the fact that a situation might develop where a few children start throwing rocks and then within the same crowd of children, someone stats shooting from within that same group. (maybe a child, maybe an adult) What are you to do? Hindsight is always 20/20.

Who shot first when the Israeli helos launch missiles down main streets to try and kill hamas leaders driving by???? What about the people walking past at the time? These are actions of the criminally incompetent IDF. The only solution is for the criminally incompetent IDF to go away.