Obama bows to Japanese Emperor

[Richard Masters]

Treason? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/6580190/Barack-Obama-criticised-for-treasonous-bow-to-Japanese-emperor.html

I wouldn't call it treason at all, but that's what the extremist conservatives are calling it. On the other hand, it does look a little too eager.

[tyr_13]

Wait, what? Seriously? No joke?

[Ziggurat]

One idiot blogger used the word "treasonous". So the hell what?

Bowing is a traditional Japanese greeting, and there's nothing wrong with doing it: unlike with the Saudi Arabia thing, there's no implicit obeisance or subservience involved. So it's not at all an equivalent situation. But it was badly performed and the attempt to combine it with a handshake awkward, and it made him look clueless. Kind of like giving Gordon Brown region-1 DVD's.

[Unabogie]

One idiot blogger used the word "treasonous". So the hell what?

Bowing is a traditional Japanese greeting, and there's nothing wrong with doing it: unlike with the Saudi Arabia thing, there's no implicit obeisance or subservience involved. So it's not at all an equivalent situation. But it was badly performed and the attempt to combine it with a handshake awkward, and it made him look clueless. Kind of like giving Gordon Brown region-1 DVD's.

I agree with you totally. Obama embarrassed himself here. He should have puked on him.

[Eyeron]

The ****?

Bowing in Japan is a sign of respect, and has nothing to do with treason.

[ARubberChickenWithAPulley]

Bowing is a traditional Japanese greeting, and there's nothing wrong with doing it: unlike with the Saudi Arabia thing, there's no implicit obeisance or subservience involved. So it's not at all an equivalent situation. But it was badly performed and the attempt to combine it with a handshake awkward, and it made him look clueless. Kind of like giving Gordon Brown region-1 DVD's.

I disagree to an extent: not all bowing is equal in Japan. Bowing as low as he did (basically 90 degrees) is typically done to express subservience, particularly if you do it to someone like the Emperor. It's not something I would expect a foreign leader to do in Japan. If he wanted to bow to show respect for Japanese culture, a shallower bow would have been more appropriate, IMO.

Regardless, it certainly isn't "treason." It's barely even newsworthy.

[ksbluesfan]

He was trying to do the proper formal thing, but he blew it.

Is every meaningless gaff going to trigger calls of treason or for impeachment? How silly.

[Thunder]

Just another non-issue for conservatives to get excited about....and look stupid over.

[Unabogie]

As I wrote in another thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=5285636#post5285636):

Modern conservatism. No nit too small to pick.

Seriously, don't you conservatives understand that by ginning up perpetual outrage you are destroying your credibility and your ability to be heard on valid criticisms?

Hyperbole for the sake of political gamesmanship doesn't help your cause, nor does it help the country.

In fact, I didn't even click the link. This nonsense just makes my head hurt.

Then I wrote:

If not, then why should I give a crap about yet another manufactured outrage when this one will be forgotten just in time for tomorrow's next manufactured outrage?

Can people really keep this up for eight years?

[The Fool]

It seems to me plainly obvious he should have been fitted with some for of wooden frame to limit his bowing angle to that which the Entire spectrum of US Citizens are happy with....personally I'm a 65 to 75 degree sort of guy where emperors are concerned.

[ksbluesfan]

Can people really keep this up for eight years?

Eight years? This has been going on since 1995.

[Thunder]

Forget bowing to human beings, how about the President of the USA bowing before a 2,000 year old wall!!!

http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs108.snc3/15531_1195230254940_1653977305_482411_4596271_n.jp g

This, my friends, is TRUE treason!!!!

:)

[Cobalt]

Forget bowing to human beings, how about the President of the USA bowing before a 2,000 year old wall!!!

http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs108.snc3/15531_1195230254940_1653977305_482411_4596271_n.jp g

This, my friends, is TRUE treason!!!!

:)

Seriously? SERIOUSLY? Is no thread immune to something Isreal/Jew/Arab/Etc related with you?

[Cain]

If not, then why should I give a crap about yet another manufactured outrage when this one will be forgotten just in time for tomorrow's next manufactured outrage

Oh, it almost me long for Katrina incompetence, the Patriot Act, tax cuts for the rich and an illegal invasion based on lies.

[Thunder]

Seriously? SERIOUSLY? Is no thread immune to something Isreal/Jew/Arab/Etc related with you?

dude....this is a picture of Bush bowing his head to the Western Wall. no conservatives thought it was treasonous for their love-child to show respect for a chunk of stone.

so why do they care if Obama bows before a politically impotent Emporer?

and by the way, get a grip man.

[eeyore1954]

Clearly a case of the Steve Malzbergs of the world looking for anything to hate President Obama for. When there is nothing there. 17 page thread on the Hannity forum about this "despicable" act

[quarky]

It seems to me plainly obvious he should have been fitted with some for of wooden frame to limit his bowing angle to that which the Entire spectrum of US Citizens are happy with....personally I'm a 65 to 75 degree sort of guy where emperors are concerned.

Me too. Unless they're in a wheelchair, in which case, neither emperor should bow. To get your head below the level of the wheel-chair emperor's head would take a very supple back, which lots of old people lack.


Its probably just Obama's "step and fetchit" genes that instinctively tell him to bow down low. Its part of the deal with a negro president; same with decent hoops skills, and none for bowling.

It would matter to me if the Japanese asked him to bow down. I wouldn't like being told to do that, but it would come easy otherwise, like being extra gracious when you stay at a friend's house.

[eeyore1954]

dude....this is a picture of Bush bowing his head to the Western Wall. no conservatives thought it was treasonous for their love-child to show respect for a chunk of stone.

so why do they care if Obama bows before a politically impotent Emporer?

and by the way, get a grip man.
Isn't he praying at the wall that many go to pray at

[Peephole]

I wanted to add "bowing for people" to my list of grave offences according to right-wingers (work in progress I started in a different thread about some other nontroversy), but apparently it was already on there! I guess they're at least consistent.

Treasonous acts:

-Having too few female golf partners.
-Giving encouraging speeches to children.
-Reading prepared speeches (from a teleprompter!).
-Fistbumping people.
-Bowing for people.
-Appointing executive branch officials.
-Trying to help American cities win their olympic bids.
-Having a Kenyan father.
-Accepting a Nobel Peace Prize.
-Giving out DVD's with the wrong region code.
-Congratulating Presidential Medal of Freedom winners.

[Thunder]

Isn't he praying at the wall that many go to pray at

oh, so its ok to be submissive to Jewish inanimate objects but not to politically impotent Emporers??????

;)

again, as I said, this whole thing is just another non-issue that makes Conservatives look like bigoted nuts, and will help health-care reform get passed.

[tyr_13]

That isn't even a ninety degree bend! Even if it were, the Emperor is, small. Everyone is supposed to bow lower than the Emperor. If the Emperor was trying to be a dick, he would have bowed lower himself.

The mistake was combining the bow with the handshake. It's hardly a problem worth nothing besides to tell people, "when in Japan, never combine a handshake with a bow."

During most interactions, a small polite bow is enough, but for the Emperor? How is this even a criticism?

[Praktik]

This is the kind of story that makes you proud to be not American.

It really is a silly story and it says more about the mindset of the demographic pumping it than it does about anything based in reality.

[Thunder]

This is the kind of story that makes you proud to be not American.


or proud to be one of the many Americans who see how stupid this truly is.

[Eyeron]

How is this even a criticism?

The American President is supposed to be God, subservient to no one, and perfect in every way shape or form and everything must be scrutinized and any error must be blown out of proportion

But I think they're just trying to get back at liberals for constantly ragging on Bush for not being able to say nuclear right. Why this even made it into a movie that he couldn't say the word right.


No, this is not logical.

[Praktik]

or proud to be one of the many Americans who see how stupid this truly is.

Hehe ya, I don't paint the whole place with one brush.

But we all look at ways to root for the home team and sometimes that means mocking other countries or seeing something there that makes you think: "glad that's not something that can happen here."

[ARubberChickenWithAPulley]

That isn't even a ninety degree bend! Even if it were, the Emperor is, small. Everyone is supposed to bow lower than the Emperor. If the Emperor was trying to be a dick, he would have bowed lower himself.

Japanese citizens are supposed to bow lower than the Emperor (because they are, at least in principle, subservient), not foreign leaders. His bow was low and slow and... well, pretty much how someone in a subservient position in Japan would bow.

And how would the Emperor be a dick by bowing lower? Heck, he didn't bow at all that I could see.


The mistake was combining the bow with the handshake. It's hardly a problem worth nothing besides to tell people, "when in Japan, never combine a handshake with a bow."

My father-in-law bows and shakes my hand at the same time, but yeah it's not great form in general, particularly in a formal situation.


During most interactions, a small polite bow is enough, but for the Emperor? How is this even a criticism?

Because he's not Obama's Emperor, he's the emperor of the Japan. They are dignitaries meeting on an equal footing.

I understand the criticism. I think in principle it's valid. I also think it isn't remotely important. It was, IMO, a minor faux-pas that deserves maybe a small chuckle and that's about it.

[MontagK505]

dude....this is a picture of Bush bowing his head to the Western Wall. no conservatives thought it was treasonous for their love-child to show respect for a chunk of stone.

so why do they care if Obama bows before a politically impotent Emporer?

and by the way, get a grip man.

Pehaps Bush was thinking "Why do my PR people have me standing here?"

[eeyore1954]

I wanted to add "bowing for people" to my list of grave offences according to right-wingers (work in progress I started in a different thread about some other nontroversy), but apparently it was already on there! I guess they're at least consistent.

Treasonous acts:

-Having too few female golf partners.
-Giving encouraging speeches to children.
-Reading prepared speeches (from a teleprompter!).
-Fistbumping people.
-Bowing for people.
-Appointing executive branch officials.
-Trying to help American cities win their olympic bids.
-Having a Kenyan father.
-Accepting a Nobel Peace Prize.
-Giving out DVD's with the wrong region code.
-Congratulating Presidential Medal of Freedom winners.

did you forget oogling that attrative girl?

[Travis]

I'm beginning to think the ultra-right wing bloggers are actually Liberal plants. Surely the extreme right isn't this crazy? Right?

[Upchurch]

I wouldn't call it treason at all, but that's what the extremist conservatives are calling it. On the other hand, it does look a little too eager.

Well, no conservative President would bow to the Japanese Emperor.


...wait for it.



...click on the bunny
:bunpan (http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1109/The_Nixon_bow.html)

[Peephole]

did you forget oogling that attrative girl?
That's more of an item for the made up stuff list.

[Thunder]

Well, no conservative President would bow to the Japanese Emperor.


sweet Jesus!!!!! Not tricky Dick!!!!!

:(

[Peephole]

Well, no conservative President would bow to the Japanese Emperor.


...wait for it.



...click on the bunny
:bunpan (http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1109/The_Nixon_bow.html)
First the singing children, now the bowing.

Is he ... the black Nixon?

Better lock up your hotel rooms, Republicans!

[Tailgater]

Well, no conservative President would bow to the Japanese Emperor.


...wait for it.



...click on the bunny
:bunpan (http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1109/The_Nixon_bow.html)

I don't care that Obama bowed. I think it was very respectful, even if done wrong. However, those are very different pictures. I'm not even sure he's bowing. They are looking at each other in the eyes.

[hgc]

Bow? Meh. Unless Obama mowed his lawn, I don't want to hear about it.

[theprestige]

Presented without comment:

Other heads of state greeting the Emperor of Japan (http://hotairpundit.blogspot.com/2009/11/president-obama-vs-rest-of-world.html).

Barack Obama greeting the Emperor of Japan (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/6567670/Barack-Obama-bows-and-talks-of-green-tea-icecream-as-he-pushes-US-ties-in-Asia.html).

[Tailgater]

At least he didn't try to give his wife a neck massage at dinner.

[David Wong]

There's no question this started with Clinton, and continued with the other side right through Bush (hey, I saw many a liberal blog screaming HITLER SALUTE!!!! every time George W Bush forgot to raise his hand all the way when he waved) but it's clearly ineffective. Crying "wolf" about every little thing renders the public deaf to the real criticisms when they're due.

And it's clearly ineffective; Clinton got re-elected, Bush got re-elected. It doesn't work, it drowns your message in noise. I don't know why they keep doing it.

It rallies the core 35% and annoys everybody else.

[quarky]

I feel blessed that he didn't give the guy a hummer. That would be awkward, for me, as an American, to handle with grace.

[Cobalt]

dude....this is a picture of Bush bowing his head to the Western Wall. no conservatives thought it was treasonous for their love-child to show respect for a chunk of stone. Great, not the point.


so why do they care if Obama bows before a politically impotent Emporer?
I don't read minds, so I don't know. As someone who isn't a Dem, I couldn't care less.

and by the way, get a grip man.
Cute.

[tyr_13]

Japanese citizens are supposed to bow lower than the Emperor (because they are, at least in principle, subservient), not foreign leaders. His bow was low and slow and... well, pretty much how someone in a subservient position in Japan would bow.

Someone being subservient or polite. Equals bow to each other in such a manner. Now you get to criticize how Obama didn't bitch slap the guy for not bowing in return.

In Japanese culture (doesn't matter if you're a citizen or not) bowing is respectful. Yes, bowing originated to show subservience with the lower ranking bowing lower. Handshaking originated as a search for weapons. Does that mean that when I shake someone's hand I'm accusing them of holding a weapon? Now it is simple tradition; bow lower than the Emperor.


And how would the Emperor be a dick by bowing lower? Heck, he didn't bow at all that I could see.

Because if one is supposed to bow lower than the Emperor, and one is much taller than the Emperor, and he bows low, you have to do some knee bending if your back isn't flexible.



My father-in-law bows and shakes my hand at the same time, but yeah it's not great form in general, particularly in a formal situation.


It's like the people who put their hands together to bow. Japanese don't do that.


Because he's not Obama's Emperor, he's the emperor of the Japan. They are dignitaries meeting on an equal footing.

If I met the Emperor of Japan, I'd bow. He isn't my emperor. Of course Obama is the President of the United States of America, but he isn't the Emperor's president either.


I understand the criticism. I think in principle it's valid. I also think it isn't remotely important. It was, IMO, a minor faux-pas that deserves maybe a small chuckle and that's about it.

I disagree. How would you feel if the Emperor had refused to shake hands? While I think it is a minor faux-pas because of the handshake at the same time, I don't believe the principle is valid that the President can't choose to bow to someone.

[Cain]

I wanted to add "bowing for people" to my list of grave offences according to right-wingers (work in progress I started in a different thread about some other nontroversy), but apparently it was already on there! I guess they're at least consistent.

Treasonous acts:

-Having too few female golf partners.
-Giving encouraging speeches to children.
-Reading prepared speeches (from a teleprompter!).
-Fistbumping people.
-Bowing for people.
-Appointing executive branch officials.
-Trying to help American cities win their Olympic bids.
-Having a Kenyan father.
-Accepting a Nobel Peace Prize.
-Giving out DVD's with the wrong region code.
-Congratulating Presidential Medal of Freedom winners.

Can we add not being in born in the United States? Please maintain this list. Add to it. Start and keep a thread documenting such treasonous offenses.

[Thunder]

I'd bow to the Emporer. I wouldn't do a damn thing he says, but I'd still bow. cause its tradition.

[Tricky]

I disagree to an extent: not all bowing is equal in Japan. Bowing as low as he did (basically 90 degrees) is typically done to express subservience, particularly if you do it to someone like the Emperor.
Maybe he was just trying to convey the diplomatic hint the he was flexible.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

I remember a simpler time (maybe to 50s) when we would just laugh at mixed up cultural hijinks from pandering politicians.

Now, on Hannity this was used in the same sentence as Obama falling back on human rights in China :rolleyes: .

[Praktik]

The only reason this is even a discussion is because of the plain fact that the RedStateUSA crowd wants a cowboy to be the President.

Witness the mischaracterization of Obama's first foreign tour as an "apology tour".

Because they see Obama as representing a weak face, they jump on him for bowing to the emperor.

They're obsessed with reducing foreign relations to a flawed model of "strength". Obama does not show the particular kind of "strength" they mistakenly believe should be the posture of the President of the United States - and so a bow like this becomes a story.

Now Dubya didn't bow like Obama did - but had he done so it is clear it would still not have generated this kind of reaction. It would be a mistake to conclude that this is the result of simple partisanship alone. Because Dubya conformed to their image of "strength" in the Presidency, such a bow would not have the reverberations that Obama's did.

[gtc]

Now Dubya didn't bow like Obama did - but had he done so it is clear it would still not have generated this kind of reaction.

Liberals get accused of being subservient to foreigners, conservatives get accused of being arrogant to foreigners. Sometimes the criticism is warranted; sometimes its not.

However, Bush was often accused of being subservient to Israel (and that seems to be the thrust of some of the posts in this thread).


I feel blessed that he didn't give the guy a hummer. That would be awkward, for me, as an American, to handle with grace.

If the stereotypes about blacks and asians are true then it might have been a humbling experience for the Emperor.

[quarky]

Maybe he was just trying to convey the diplomatic hint the he was flexible.

That has racial tones.

White guys can't bow. Is that what you're saying?

[jnelso99]

I wanted to add "bowing for people" to my list of grave offences according to right-wingers (work in progress I started in a different thread about some other nontroversy), but apparently it was already on there! I guess they're at least consistent.

Treasonous acts:

-Having too few female golf partners.
-Giving encouraging speeches to children.
-Reading prepared speeches (from a teleprompter!).
-Fistbumping people.
-Bowing for people.
-Appointing executive branch officials.
-Trying to help American cities win their olympic bids.
-Having a Kenyan father.
-Accepting a Nobel Peace Prize.
-Giving out DVD's with the wrong region code.
-Congratulating Presidential Medal of Freedom winners.

Don't forget about preferring Dijon on his Arugula or whatever that was all about.

And filling out an NCAA basketball tournament bracket.

[gtc]

That has racial tones.

I think it was supposed to have sexual tones.

[Eyeron]

You can't have racist sexual tones?

[Upchurch]

I disagree to an extent: not all bowing is equal in Japan. Bowing as low as he did (basically 90 degrees) is typically done to express subservience, particularly if you do it to someone like the Emperor.
I'll admit to knowing nothing about the protocols involved, but does how far Obama bowed have anything to do with how much taller he is than the emperor? As if he were aiming for approximately the same height and just went a little too far whenever that picture was taken?

[Peephole]

Presented without comment:

Other heads of state greeting the Emperor of Japan (http://hotairpundit.blogspot.com/2009/11/president-obama-vs-rest-of-world.html).

Barack Obama greeting the Emperor of Japan (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/6567670/Barack-Obama-bows-and-talks-of-green-tea-icecream-as-he-pushes-US-ties-in-Asia.html).
Content removed.

Not passing comment though.

[ravdin]

I see this sort of behavior as unseemly and I wish the POTUS wasn't in the habit of bowing to kings and emperors. But in the greater scheme of things, it's only slightly more important than what was on Dr. Phil last night.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Obama was courteous to a foreigner. Oh for pity's sake. So what? This is absolutely unbelievable right wing nonsense. The right wing sooo needs to get a life.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I see this sort of behavior as unseemly and I wish the POTUS wasn't in the habit of bowing to kings and emperors. But in the greater scheme of things, it's only slightly more important than what was on Dr. Phil last night.And why the hell shouldn't the POTUS be courteous to foreign dignitaries? The only reason this even hints of Kowtowing is because the right wing has made a fake talking point out of it.

[ravdin]

And why the hell shouldn't the POTUS be courteous to foreign dignitaries? The only reason this even hints of Kowtowing is because the right wing has made a fake talking point out of it.

Is it so discourteous for a world leader to stand tall, look his counterpart in the eye, and greet him as an equal?

ETA: For the POTUS to greet the Emperor of Japan as an equal already gives him much more respect than he deserves. President Obama is the freely elected leader of over 300 million people, and he earned his position in a meritocracy. Emperor Akihito inherited his position in life from a war criminal.

[Unabogie]

Is it so discourteous for a world leader to stand tall, look his counterpart in the eye, and greet him as an equal?

ETA: For the POTUS to greet the Emperor of Japan as an equal already gives him much more respect than he deserves. President Obama is the freely elected leader of over 300 million people, and he earned his position in a meritocracy. Emperor Akihito inherited his position in life from a war criminal.

Who elected the pope?

http://www.positiveliberty.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/bush_bow.jpg

[Brainster]

Boy, it's a great thing this forum is around for me to comment on stuff that was covered extensively on the blogs two days ago.

Let me point out that the New York Times almost had a fit (http://www.nytimes.com/1994/06/19/weekinreview/the-world-the-president-s-inclination-no-it-wasn-t-a-bow-bow.html) when Bill Clinton almost bowed to the same emperor 15 years ago:

It wasn't a bow, exactly. But Mr. Clinton came close. He inclined his head and shoulders forward, he pressed his hands together. It lasted no longer than a snapshot, but the image on the South Lawn was indelible: an obsequent President, and the Emperor of Japan.

But the State Department was quick to deny that Clinton actually bowed:

"It was not a bow-bow, if you know what I mean," said Ambassador Molly Raiser, the chief of protocol.

White House officials described Mr. Clinton's tilt as something of an improvisation. Because Emperor Akihito broke with tradition in turn to raise his glass at the state dinner, some even said Mr. Clinton had managed something of a breakthrough.

"Presidents don't bow, and Emperors don't toast," one official said. "So this was a little bit like the cultures meeting each other halfway."

I don't particularly care that Obama bowed; it's just another example (in the long line) that his team is completely out of their league.

[gtc]

Who elected the pope?

http://www.positiveliberty.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/bush_bow.jpg

Tu Quoque (or two cocks if you prefer).

ETA. The College of Cardinals elect the Pope.

[Unabogie]

Tu Quoque (or two cocks if you prefer).

ETA. The College of Cardinals elect the Pope.

I don't think that means what you think it means. I see nothing wrong with either of them, since this is just what Presidents do (there's a picture of Nixon bowing to the Emperor as well).

Since the poster said the issue was that Obama is elected and the Emperor was not, I naturally thought he'd like to voice his outrage at Bush as well. And you, too. I'm sure you were pissed as hell when Bush did that.

[gtc]

I don't think that means what you think it means.
...

Since the poster said the issue was that Obama is elected and the Emperor was not, I naturally thought he'd like to voice his outrage at Bush as well. And you, too. I'm sure you were pissed as hell when Bush did that.

I was under the impression that your argument here is the Tu Quoque fallacy.

Putting that to one side, I have not indicated that I am 'pissed as hell' or even 'outraged' by Obama's actions.

If you want to know I am in agreement with Brainster:

I don't particularly care that Obama bowed; it's just another example (in the long line) that his team is completely out of their league.

[KoihimeNakamura]

Boy, it's a great thing this forum is around for me to comment on stuff that was covered extensively on the blogs two days ago.

Let me point out that the New York Times almost had a fit (http://www.nytimes.com/1994/06/19/weekinreview/the-world-the-president-s-inclination-no-it-wasn-t-a-bow-bow.html) when Bill Clinton almost bowed to the same emperor 15 years ago:



But the State Department was quick to deny that Clinton actually bowed:



I don't particularly care that Obama bowed; it's just another example (in the long line) that his team is completely out of their league.

Meme push ftl.

eta: let me expand: No, it's not. No one really cares except the right wing, and I will note that when I bow, I bow without exception to very low. I'm weird that way, and I really don't think it's unique to me.

So no, it's no example of 'naivety' (the region dvd thing is probably an example of someone not checking if it worked, but..)

(Also, re: war criminal: The thing is, Japanese royalty (At one time, the royal line and probably up to the emperor in WWII claimed Divine Right, through being descended from Amaterasu-no-kami. IIRC, this belief died out along with the flavor of Shintoism that oriented with the state) is said to be divine in a sense. Treating them as Figureheads (the ceremonial role that Queen Elizabeth currently holds) is /not a bad thing/)

(How this works with the various Shogunates uhm.. I really don't know. YMMV.)

ETA2: Okay, after discussing it, someone pointed out that a) it's not 90 degrees and b) "the Emperor married the Empress before Obama was even born." (i.e elders.)

[Eddie Dane]

Remember this one? (http://images.google.nl/images?hl=en&source=hp&q=bush%20holding%20hands&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi)

[ARubberChickenWithAPulley]

Someone being subservient or polite. Equals bow to each other in such a manner. Now you get to criticize how Obama didn't bitch slap the guy for not bowing in return.

Equals bow to each other equally. Obama's bow was not a typical "polite" bow.


In Japanese culture (doesn't matter if you're a citizen or not) bowing is respectful. Yes, bowing originated to show subservience with the lower ranking bowing lower. Handshaking originated as a search for weapons. Does that mean that when I shake someone's hand I'm accusing them of holding a weapon? Now it is simple tradition; bow lower than the Emperor.

The simple tradition of bowing lower than the emperor is expected of Japanese citizens. He is their Emperor. There is no expectation for foreign leaders to bow lower than the emperor. Bowing is respectful. Bowing low and slow while averting one's eyes is subservient or apologetic.


Because if one is supposed to bow lower than the Emperor, and one is much taller than the Emperor, and he bows low, you have to do some knee bending if your back isn't flexible.

Obama bowed first, so he wouldn't bow a second, unless he was being really really subservient.


It's like the people who put their hands together to bow. Japanese don't do that.

Not typically. But my father-in-law is Japanese, and he definitely shakes hands and bows at the same time, with me. But yes I agree, it's not typical.


If I met the Emperor of Japan, I'd bow. He isn't my emperor. Of course Obama is the President of the United States of America, but he isn't the Emperor's president either.

And nobody expects the Emperor to bow or prostrate himself to the President. Hence my point: they are equals.

For another example, I bow very low to my wife's grandmother as a respect to her age. In cases where I've worked with Japanese (and Korean) professionals who are much older than me, I do not bow lower because in position, we are on an equal footing.


I disagree. How would you feel if the Emperor had refused to shake hands? While I think it is a minor faux-pas because of the handshake at the same time, I don't believe the principle is valid that the President can't choose to bow to someone.

Shaking hands is expected in international protocol in most cases. Bowing isn't, even in countries where people bow as a common greeting. Not bowing would not be rude. Not shaking hands would be.

Again, I don't have a problem with him bowing, per se. But I understand (in principle, and that's about it) the concern about how it looked, not because he bowed, but because of how he did it.

[KoihimeNakamura]

IIRC, subservient bowing is only with hands,knees and face on the ground.

[Sporanox]

More information. (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/11/on-president-obamas-bow-to-the-japanese-emperor-an-academic-friend-writes-that-both-the-left-and-the-right-are-wrong.html)

"Kyodo News is running his appropriate and reciprocated nod and shake with the Empress, certainly to show the president as dignified, and not in the form of a first year English teacher trying to impress with Karate Kid-level knowledge of Japanese customs.

Yep. Protocol office screws up again.

[ARubberChickenWithAPulley]

I'll admit to knowing nothing about the protocols involved, but does how far Obama bowed have anything to do with how much taller he is than the emperor? As if he were aiming for approximately the same height and just went a little too far whenever that picture was taken?

His height definitely makes it slower and more dramatic, which added to the effect. But who really knows: it's possible that his protocol advisers told him to bow lower (in which case I think they were incorrect), or it's possible they told him to bow equally and he just wasn't very good at it -- and, combined with him being much taller, it made it look worse than it was. Either way, it's a real tiny goof -- and really, it's only one in terms of his appearance here. I'm sure the Japanese don't care about it at all.

[Dancing David]

Treason? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/6580190/Barack-Obama-criticised-for-treasonous-bow-to-Japanese-emperor.html

I wouldn't call it treason at all, but that's what the extremist conservatives are calling it. On the other hand, it does look a little too eager.

It is like a freaking hand shake.

It is a social convention, I doubt that Obama did the knees and feet on the floor fully submissive bow.

[ARubberChickenWithAPulley]

IIRC, subservient bowing is only with hands,knees and face on the ground.

I disagree. That is a form of subservient bowing (particularly as done to the Shogun and Emperor by subjects), but bowing lower in formal settings is still a way of placing yourself beneath the person to whom you are bowing (e.g. junior employees doing it to senior employees in companies). My sister in-law recently joined a company and has complained a few times about being forced to bow that way to employees who are her seniors at the company. She spent several years in the U.S. and is having some reverse-culture shock, I think.

But yeah -- Obama sure as heck didn't throw himself at the feet of the emperor.

[Sporanox]

Let's face it, Obama screwed up. Does it matter too much? No. Just another one for the history books.

[Dancing David]

IIRC, subservient bowing is only with hands,knees and face on the ground.

Yup, yup yup, from the seiza (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seiza) and in the older days 'knee walking' was said to have been used as a sign of submission.

[Puppycow]

More information. (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/11/on-president-obamas-bow-to-the-japanese-emperor-an-academic-friend-writes-that-both-the-left-and-the-right-are-wrong.html)



Yep. Protocol office screws up again.

The alleged Nixon bow (http://images.google.com/hosted/life/l?imgurl=5c8f4325f5d81345&q=hirohito%20source:life&prev=/images?q=hirohito+source:life&ndsp=12&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=N&start=12&um=1) doesn't look like a bow to me. It looks like two men leaning toward each other so they can hear each other as they speak.

The deep Obama bow while shaking hands is not doing it right.
That's not how Japanese people bow. Is it a big deal? No, except that to a lot of nationalistic Americans it is a big deal. The New York Times article from 1994 demonstrates that it is not the traditional protocol for a president to bow. The photos linked by theprestige also show that this is not normal for high ranking foreign visitors.

[Thunder]

Let's face it, Obama screwed up.

no he didn't. he was trying to be respectful to Japanese culture.

[Sporanox]

no he didn't. he was trying to be respectful to Japanese culture.

Yes, he tried and missed the finer points. Like what that kind of bow actually means.

[Praktik]

The alleged Nixon bow (http://images.google.com/hosted/life/l?imgurl=5c8f4325f5d81345&q=hirohito%20source:life&prev=/images?q=hirohito+source:life&ndsp=12&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=N&start=12&um=1) doesn't look like a bow to me. It looks like two men leaning toward each other so they can hear each other as they speak.

The deep Obama bow while shaking hands is not doing it right.
That's not how Japanese people bow. Is it a big deal? No, except that to a lot of nationalistic Americans it is a big deal. The New York Times article from 1994 demonstrates that it is not the traditional protocol for a president to bow. The photos linked by theprestige also show that this is not normal for high ranking foreign visitors.

Ok - so let's say this is a little out of the ordinary. What are the potential negatives from this?

The only downside is well, nothing. It's not like the people in America upset about the bow weren't already upset with the face Obama projects to the world (not nearly Churchillian and tough-guy enough for them). So no loss there.

The upside? Perhaps the Japanese like to see that kind of respect paid to a national symbol.

[ToddH]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_8DgDi8xML5g/SejuLSihL6I/AAAAAAAAAMM/j_yQNrMwJHw/s320/George_W_Bush_Prince_Abdullah_kiss_hold_hands.jpg

It's called diplomacy and it's what Presidents do.

[commandlinegamer]

It's a bad day when the fact that the president of the United States being courteous to another foreign leader is a news story.

[Sporanox]

It's a bad day when the fact that the president of the United States being courteous to another foreign leader is a news story.

WIBDI? (What if Bush did it...)

Actually, WICDI. See the NYT about Clinton.

[Praktik]

WIBDI? (What if Bush did it...)

Actually, WICDI. See the NYT about Clinton.

As I said above, since Bush played the swaggerin cowboy and tough-guy the RedStateUSA crowd loves him doing exactly the same thing would have occassioned no comment.

Because there wouldn't be this background of an irrational fear that he was projecting a "weak face" to the world and the only people who would complain about a bow to a foreign dignitary would be the RedStateUSA crowd in the first place.

[gtc]

It's called diplomacy

(emphasis mine)

I can never keep up with the euphemisms for homosexuality.

[Dave Rogers]

But I think they're just trying to get back at liberals for constantly ragging on Bush for not being able to say nuclear right.

Yes, I remember him being accused of treason for that.

Dave

[tyr_13]

Equals bow to each other equally
..[snip]

This seems to be the crux of your argument and is simply wrong. They are not equals in that situation. For example, at the dojo I bow to people and say, "Ohio gozaimasu," to people who would have to do the same to me in the English classroom. Obama is speaking to someone who was born in 1933 while in that man's country, with that man being the Emperor.

It doesn't matter if you believe that they are 'equals' otherwise (I certainly hold Obama to have far, far more power than the Emperor), but where they were, the Emperor was the 'superior'.

And as has been point out many times at this point, bowing is not showing subservience today. It's a tradition only slightly more complex than the handshake. He didn't kowtow.

I'd love all these expert gaijin to show that they understand what this means to the Japanese at all. It's more than a little presumptuous to view ever act of Obama as for American sensibility.

Please Sporanox, tell us all what a bow actually means. I think it would be entertaining.

(This is the part where people are supposed to turn the argument against me, quiz me on random Japanese cultural information, and declare me ignorant when something comes up that I'm wrong about, or that doesn't match what someone was once told by one Japanese person on time at the mall. :rolleyes: )

[Sporanox]

As I said above, since Bush played the swaggerin cowboy and tough-guy the RedStateUSA crowd loves him doing exactly the same thing would have occassioned no comment.

Because there wouldn't be this background of an irrational fear that he was projecting a "weak face" to the world and the only people who would complain about a bow to a foreign dignitary would be the RedStateUSA crowd in the first place.

The only people who would complain about a bow would be the RedStateUSA crowd? I don't believe they were employed at the NYT in Clinton's term.

Of course, nobody really knows how exactly they would have reacted had Bush done the same thing. I have a good feel of how the other side would have, though.

[Sporanox]

Please Sporanox, tell us all what a bow actually means. I think it would be entertaining.

(This is the part where people are supposed to turn the argument against me, quiz me on random Japanese cultural information, and declare me ignorant when something comes up that I'm wrong about, or that doesn't match what someone was once told by one Japanese person on time at the mall. :rolleyes: )

Ahem. (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/11/on-president-obamas-bow-to-the-japanese-emperor-an-academic-friend-writes-that-both-the-left-and-the-right-are-wrong.html)

"At their 1971 meeting in Alaska, the first visit of a Japanese Emperor to America, President Nixon bowed and referred to Emperor Hirohito and his wife repeatedly as 'Your Imperial Majesties.'"

(See that picture HERE.)

"Yet, (and?) Nixon gets the bow right. Slight arch from the waist hands at his side.

"Obama's handshake/forward lurch was so jarring and inappropriate it recalls Bush's back-rub of Merkel.

Uh oh. He conjured THAT incident. There is also the matter of at least 40 other heads of state opting for the handshake.

EDIT: "Ohio"?? I don't have any special knowledge of Japanese culture, but really...

[Praktik]

The only people who would complain about a bow would be the RedStateUSA crowd? I don't believe they were employed at the NYT in Clinton's term.

Of course, nobody really knows how exactly they would have reacted had Bush done the same thing. I have a good feel of how the other side would have, though.

I just don't think the left or the democrats have the same cartoon conception of foreign policy and wouldnt find a bow to be remarkable at all.

besides, there were plenty of other things for them to criticize foreign policy wise that had a lot more meat.

[tyr_13]

Ahem. (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/11/on-president-obamas-bow-to-the-japanese-emperor-an-academic-friend-writes-that-both-the-left-and-the-right-are-wrong.html)


He address the view of the 'left' (which I'm assuming you've placed my view in) as being 'a show of cultural understanding'. However, that's not what I've argued. Note how I said the handshake thing was wrong.

I disagree with the author's source that the bow could be called 'showing weakness'. That's the same as nit picking a person's handshake along the lines of, "His wrist wasn't kind of limp, and the grip weak, it shows weakness."

Obama's bow was a nice try, but not a total screw up.




EDIT: "Ohio"?? I don't have any special knowledge of Japanese culture, but really...

'Good morning'.

[Sporanox]

I just don't think the left or the democrats have the same cartoon conception of foreign policy and wouldnt find a bow to be remarkable at all.

Would you find Bush's gestures when with the Saudi king remarkable? ToddH seems to.

Protocol violations/odd gestures are at least worthy of mention.

[Praktik]

Would you find Bush's gestures when with the Saudi king remarkable? ToddH seems to.

Protocol violations/odd gestures are at least worthy of mention.

No not really. While the Bush's had a much closer relationship with them its been fairly consistent foreign policy of the US through all recent admins to play nice with the Saudis, cause they have oil, are aligned against Iran and Shiites generally and repress their own population sufficiently to keep the radicals on the run.

So I wouldn't be surprised to see a democrat be cordial and if there is a difference and Bush was a little warmer that's more of a signifier of their well-documented and longstanding personal friendships/business relationships with Saudi leaders.

Its most definitely not a signifier of portraying an alleged "weak face" to the world and anyone who says that is just as wrong about that as they are about Obama.

[Sporanox]

He address the view of the 'left' (which I'm assuming you've placed my view in) as being 'a show of cultural understanding'. However, that's not what I've argued. Note how I said the handshake thing was wrong.

If so, that's largely irrelevant. What matters is where he said the bow was, well, completely wrong.


I disagree with the author's source that the bow could be called 'showing weakness'. That's the same as nit picking a person's handshake along the lines of, "His wrist wasn't kind of limp, and the grip weak, it shows weakness."

Can you source an expert with this view instead of asking me to depend upon your anecdotal experience with the local karate/aikido/kendo establishment?

'Good morning'.

Ohayo. The other iteration is a state.

[ToddH]

Would you find Bush's gestures when with the Saudi king remarkable? ToddH seems to.

I don't find Bush's gestures remarkable at all. I remember the uproar when it happened and thinking how it was much ado about nothing. Same with the Obama bows.

[Sporanox]

No not really. While the Bush's had a much closer relationship with them its been fairly consistent foreign policy of the US through all recent admins to play nice with the Saudis, cause they have oil, are aligned against Iran and Shiites generally and repress their own population sufficiently to keep the radicals on the run.

So you disagree with Todd. EDIT: Never mind. He doesn't think they're remarkable either. Yet, we both remember the media coverage.


Its most definitely not a signifier of portraying an alleged "weak face" to the world and anyone who says that is just as wrong about that as they are about Obama.

I agree. It's just something for me to put in the 'smart diplomacy' file.

When you set yourself up for the fall, you shouldn't be surprised when it actually happens.

[Praktik]

I don't find Bush's gestures remarkable at all. I remember the uproar when it happened and thinking how it was much ado about nothing. Same with the Obama bows.

And the "uproars" were predicated on different premises:

the chatter about Bush was about him maybe being "too close" to the Saudis, the place (dun dun DUNN) where most of the 9/11 hijackers came from.

The chatter about Obama is about him not living up to the comic book of foreign policy that's dominant in the RedState/Hinderaker/Townhall nexus.

[Darth Rotor]

I disagree to an extent: not all bowing is equal in Japan. Bowing as low as he did (basically 90 degrees) is typically done to express subservience, particularly if you do it to someone like the Emperor. It's not something I would expect a foreign leader to do in Japan. If he wanted to bow to show respect for Japanese culture, a shallower bow would have been more appropriate, IMO.
His protocol people ought to have the living crap kicked out of them. Did anyone bother to consult the experts in Japanese conventions in the State Department? The Pres has to have experts advising him on protocol. The shallow bow would fit the occasion quite well.

*sigh*

Protocol team, repeat after me: "Yes we can ... make our President look clumsy. But we are not supposed to."

Nice going, folks, real nice.

FFS, give the man the top shelf advice he deserves. He's the President, for crying out loud.

DR

[ravdin]

All this talk about emperors reminded me of why we don't need them anymore.

5Xd_zkMEgkI

[Peephole]

Let me point out that the New York Times almost had a fit (http://www.nytimes.com/1994/06/19/weekinreview/the-world-the-president-s-inclination-no-it-wasn-t-a-bow-bow.html) when Bill Clinton almost bowed to the same emperor 15 years ago:
The only people who would complain about a bow would be the RedStateUSA crowd? I don't believe they were employed at the NYT in Clinton's term.
Who cares? Because someone at the New York Times said something stupid, it's not ok to repeat it 15 years later.
I don't particularly care that Obama bowed; it's just another example (in the long line) that his team is completely out of their league.
More intellectual cowardice, either you think it's wrong and you say so, or you don't and you shut up.
Is it so discourteous for a world leader to stand tall, look his counterpart in the eye, and greet him as an equal?
Obama bowing does not make him subservient. He's not going to suddenly gift away Hawaii. It was a meaningless act of politeness.
ETA: For the POTUS to greet the Emperor of Japan as an equal already gives him much more respect than he deserves. President Obama is the freely elected leader of over 300 million people, and he earned his position in a meritocracy. Emperor Akihito inherited his position in life from a war criminal.
So, your problem isn't with the bowing but with who Obama is bowing to? You think the U.S. President should be in the business of choosing heads of state?

[Achán hiNidráne]

President Obama is the freely elected leader of over 300 million people, and he earned his position in a meritocracy. Emperor Akihito inherited his position in life from a war criminal.

Ummmmm... I hate to break it to you, but World War II ended 69 years ago.

[tyr_13]

If so, that's largely irrelevant. What matters is where he said the bow was, well, completely wrong.

To bow is what is largely being criticized for one. The second thing that people are criticizing is the depth of the bow, which also isn't wrong. The form was wrong, which I've already said. I didn't watch video of it and only saw the one picture.



Can you source an expert with this view instead of asking me to depend upon your anecdotal experience with the local karate/aikido/kendo establishment?

My experiences in Kyoto and Aichi at the Aichi University of Education are what I am citing. This includes kendo dojos, living history (being seated as a head guest at a tea ceremony), and the Jodo Shinshu head temple. It also includes Japanese culture classes at the college. Experts included.



Ohayo. The other iteration is a state.

Screw you auto spelling, I know what I'm typing.

[ravdin]

Obama bowing does not make him subservient. He's not going to suddenly gift away Hawaii. It was a meaningless act of politeness.

All I said was that it would not be impolite or disrespectful to decline to bow.

So, your problem isn't with the bowing but with who Obama is bowing to? You think the U.S. President should be in the business of choosing heads of state?

Does Obama bow to the Premier of Russia, or the Chancellor of Germany, or the Prime Minister of Israel? Why not? Suppose I told you I was the Grand Vizier of California and Protector of Oregon- and I expected you to bow in my presence. Would you play along? Why should the President indulge in this make believe that Akihito is such an exalted personage, and just because of an accident of birth, he deserves such deference when he's greeted?

[Cleon]

Does Obama bow to the Premier of Russia, or the Chancellor of Germany, or the Prime Minister of Israel? Why not?

It might--just might--have something to do with the fact that bowing is not a customary greeting in Russia, Germany, or Israel.

[Peephole]

Does Obama bow to the Premier of Russia, or the Chancellor of Germany, or the Prime Minister of Israel? Why not? Suppose I told you I was the Grand Vizier of California and Protector of Oregon- and I expected you to bow in my presence. Would you play along? Why should the President indulge in this make believe that Akihito is such an exalted personage, just because of an accident of birth, that he deserves such deference in his presence?
Because the U.S. President doesn't get to decide who the Japanese head of state is, that's up to the Japanese people. That you don't like it, is irrelevant.

Why should be a pretty obvious fact.

[Unabogie]

Is this still outrage still operational? Aren't we on to the next nontroversy yet?

[leftysergeant]

Will all of you grow a freaking sense of humor, please?

I, personally, think it is nice to have a president who does not take himself too seriously.

Some of them. lately, have had an entirely too-elevated sense of their own importance in the grand scheme of creation.

(Aren't we all glad that Obama did not at any point refer to the Emperor as a "pygmy?")

The first thing I thought of when this crap hit the net was a situation that arose while I was stationed in Korea.

We were serving duck for lunch. Most of the KATUSAs coming through the line pointed to the duck and asked for "chicken." The GI serving it got a bit frustrated and told them all, in a rather aggressiuve manner. "It's duck. You know what duck is, don't you?"

The KATUSAs all looked a bit confused. I could undersatand why. "Chicken" in Korean is "tak." (The difference, in Korean, between the "t" and "d" phonemes is rather subtle.) To defuse what was becoming a rather uncomfortable situation, I got an index card and wrote on it, in Hangul script, "o-ri." Below that , I wrote "duck" in Roman script and transliterated it into Hangul script.

The next Korean through the serving line was a ROK major. On seeing the card, he asked who had made it and, when the cook serving the duck pointed me out, the major approached me and, in greeting, bowed as though to an equal and struck up a conversation about cultural differences and ways that they might be resolved by a little patience.

Any time that we met thereafter, in other than a duty setting, he was almost always the first to bow. When I mentioned that it made me a bit uncomfortable, he dismissed it with a comment about my being noticeably older than he.

Now, from my perspective, as a mere NCO in a foreign army, it seemed like a faux pas. To the major, it seemed quite acceptable. We were not in the same chain of command, and we found each other's opinions enlightening and interesting, and enjoyed talking when the situation permitted. We learned things from each other.

The one thing I brought away with me from all of that is that any attempt to reach across cultural lines, even if you flub it at some point, but still manage to look as though your intentions were good, is going to get you a lot of respect from the people of other cultures.

This is much ado about nothing.

[Sporanox]

To bow is what is largely being criticized for one. The second thing that people are criticizing is the depth of the bow, which also isn't wrong. The form was wrong, which I've already said. I didn't watch video of it and only saw the one picture.

My experiences in Kyoto and Aichi at the Aichi University of Education are what I am citing. This includes kendo dojos, living history (being seated as a head guest at a tea ceremony), and the Jodo Shinshu head temple. It also includes Japanese culture classes at the college. Experts included.

The referenced source criticizes form and depth. If I understand you, the reason you believe the depth is correct is because the Emperor apparently takes the superior position in this situation? If so, then your view may be closer to the source. Treating the Emperor as a superior could very well be considered showing formal weakness.

Having said that, it's his word against yours. So far, the consensus is with him. Especially considering this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5U6fL7Y4BZA&feature=player_embedded

[Cleon]

Is this still outrage still operational? Aren't we on to the next nontroversy yet?

I'm trying to decide which thread has more fail in it; this one or the one about Walmart's "radioactive fallout" Christmas ad.

[LarianLeQuella]

Well, acting like a complete and utter douche has worked so well for American foreign policy that Obama has decided that he's going to derail all the progress made from 2000 to 2008 and be a thoughtful and respectful human being. :rolleyes:

[Sporanox]

Now, from my perspective, as a mere NCO in a foreign army, it seemed like a faux pas. To the major, it seemed quite acceptable. We were not in the same chain of command, and we found each other's opinions enlightening and interesting, and enjoyed talking when the situation permitted. We learned things from each other.


Ok. So everyone agrees that the bow wasn't the correct thing to do, at least to some degree. The only other issue is what importance it takes on...

I look at this as an embarrassment. These things should not be repeatedly happening. But does it affect the image of the US? Ah...no, not really. I'm sure Bush's backrub wasn't that big of a deal either.

[Unabogie]

Will all of you grow a freaking sense of humor, please?

I, personally, think it is nice to have a president who does not take himself too seriously.

Some of them. lately, have had an entirely too-elevated sense of their own importance in the grand scheme of creation.

(Aren't we all glad that Obama did not at any point refer to the Emperor as a "pygmy?")

The first thing I thought of when this crap hit the net was a situation that arose while I was stationed in Korea.

We were serving duck for lunch. Most of the KATUSAs coming through the l;ine pointed to the duck and asked for "chicken." The GI serving it got a bit frustrated and told them all, in a rather aggressiuve manner. "It's duck. You know what duck is, don't yopu?"

The KATUSAs all looked a bit confused. I could undersatand why. "Chicken" in Korean is "tak." (The difference, in Korean, between the "t" and "d" phonemes is rather subtle.) To defuse what was becom,ing a rather uncomfortable situation, I got an index card and wrote on it, in Hangul script, "o-ri." Below that , I wrote "duck" in Roman script and transliterated it into Hangul script.

The next Korean through the serving line was a ROK major. On seeing the card, he asked who had made it and, when the cook serving the duck pointed me out, the major approached me and, in greeting, bowed as though to an equal and struck up a conversation about cultural differences and ways that they might be resolved by a little patience.

Any time that we met thereafter, in other than a duty setting, he was almost always the first to bow. When I mentioned that it made me a bit uncomfortable, he dismissed it with a comment about my being noticeably older than he.

Now, from my perspective, as a mere NCO in a foreign army, it seemed like a faux pas. To the major, it seemed quite acceptable. We were not in the same chain of command, and we found each other's opinions enlightening and interesting, and enjoyed talking when the situation permitted. We learned things from each other.

The one thing I brought away with me from all of that is that any attempt to reach across cultural lines, even if you flub it at some point, but still manage to look as though your intentions were good, is going to get you a lot of respect from the people of other cultures.

This is much ado about nothing.


This is my experience as well. My Spanish is pretty mediocre. But any time I attempt to use it with a native Spanish speaker, they seem to really appreciate it. It's a small gesture, but it's a gesture that says "I appreciate your culture enough to try and learn it". No one cares if I mix up my verb tenses.

The upshot is that the Queen of England was smitten by them (Michelle's "horrible breach" notwithstanding), and the Emperor broke out in a big smile. Seems like successful diplomacy to me, but then again I'm not an expert like some here.

[leftysergeant]

I look at this as an embarrassment. These things should not be repeatedly happening.

I find it much more amusing than embarrassing. Probably most of the world does.

But does it affect the image of the US?

A great deal, actually. Shows we have a president who is not an arrogant schmuck or a hoity-toity frat boy with delusions of grandeur.

I'm sure Bush's backrub wasn't that big of a deal either.

WTF?

[tyr_13]

The referenced source criticizes form and depth. If I understand you, the reason you believe the depth is correct is because the Emperor apparently takes the superior position in this situation? If so, then your view may be closer to the source. Treating the Emperor as a superior could very well be considered showing formal weakness.

No it can not reasonably be shown to be that. It could shown to be poorly done, but not showing formal weakness any more than a limp handshake.

Yes, the Emperor takes the superior position in that situation.


Having said that, it's his word against yours. So far, the consensus is with him. Especially considering this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5U6fL7Y4BZA&feature=player_embedded

Considering that other people didn't bow? What about all those other ******** standing around in those pictures who didn't even shake hands? What a crock, the president thinking he has to shake hands with ceremonial heads of state! :p

You link to a stupid partisan video about how other people didn't bow, and that makes Obama's bowing at all wrong? No, that doesn't follow. How on earth do you consider that a 'consensus'?

Obama wasn't wrong to bow. He wouldn't have been wrong not to bow. It's a simple non-issue.

It's ignorant to believe that people both here and in Japan wouldn't read different things into it. People who don't like Obama will read 'weakness' in it because that's what they already believe. If you asked a thousand Americans about proper handshaking form, you'll get nearly a thousand different answers. Reading into this at all is stupid from the get go.

[quarky]

Reagan had to make love to Thatcher. At least bowing doesn't have sexual undertones.

[Unabogie]

Nixon bowed to Chairman Mao.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1109/Bowing_to_Mao.html

Can we drop this now?

[Meadmaker]

I'm glad to see that people understand the issues that are REALLY important.

[Bill Thompson]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_8DgDi8xML5g/SejuLSihL6I/AAAAAAAAAMM/j_yQNrMwJHw/s320/George_W_Bush_Prince_Abdullah_kiss_hold_hands.jpg

It's called diplomacy and it's what Presidents do.

The smooch is NOT photoshopped?

[ravdin]

Is this still outrage still operational? Aren't we on to the next nontroversy yet?

As I said in my initial comment on the thread, I don't like seeing the President bowing to monarchs but it's hardly the most pressing concern of the day. Apparently it's much more important to some to vociferously defend Obama from even the mildest criticism, but I've never cared much for partisan politics. I've said everything I have to say on the matter and I'm very happy to drop it. We have a dead horse on our hands.

[Unabogie]

As I said in my initial comment on the thread, I don't like seeing the President bowing to monarchs but it's hardly the most pressing concern of the day. Apparently it's much more important to some to vociferously defend Obama from even the mildest criticism, but I've never cared much for partisan politics. I've said everything I have to say on the matter and I'm very happy to drop it. We have a dead horse on our hands.

Actually it's the trifling, nit-picking criticisms that people tend to defend against. As I keep saying, blowing up nontroverisies, especially since Bush bowed, Clinton bowed, Bush Sr. bowed, and Nixon bowed to Mao, just makes actual criticisms more muted and hard to hear above the din.

If you actually oppose President Obama's policies, you should be the loudest one here in vociferously knocking down this nonsense, since it's hurting your cause.

[Alferd_Packer]

This has got to be the stupidest issue yet.

[shawmutt]

Hehe ya, I don't paint the whole place with one brush.

But we all look at ways to root for the home team and sometimes that means mocking other countries or seeing something there that makes you think: "glad that's not something that can happen here."

People who rag on another country without declaring their own are annoying.

WTF? [about the back rub]

v=5dfrHT8o-0A

[Steve]

This has got to be the stupidest issue yet.

As I have been scrolling quickly through this thread the incredulous smile on my face has been getting broader and broader. So many apparently serious comments on such an inane topic. Why does anyone care?

[Eyeron]

Because Obama is the most visible face to America there is, as are all American Presidents. World opinion is often based on what the American President does. He represents the American people to countries overseas and therefore must be held to higher standard of behavior and appearance.

[ravdin]

Actually it's the trifling, nit-picking criticisms that people tend to defend against. As I keep saying, blowing up nontroverisies, especially since Bush bowed, Clinton bowed, Bush Sr. bowed, and Nixon bowed to Mao, just makes actual criticisms more muted and hard to hear above the din.

If you actually oppose President Obama's policies, you should be the loudest one here in vociferously knocking down this nonsense, since it's hurting your cause.

As it happens, I agree with you. If I really opposed Obama's policies, I'd pick my battles more carefully than this. Not everyone who finds fault with Obama from time to time is a member of the vast right wing conspiracy. This doesn't have to be a polarizing issue just because FOX News says so.

[Unabogie]

As it happens, I agree with you. If I really opposed Obama's policies, I'd pick my battles more carefully than this. Not everyone who finds fault with Obama from time to time is a member of the vast right wing conspiracy. This doesn't have to be a polarizing issue just because FOX News says so.

Why would anyone assume you were right wing? Just because your location is listed as "The People's Republic of Berkeley?"

[Ryokan]

(This is the part where people are supposed to turn the argument against me, quiz me on random Japanese cultural information, and declare me ignorant when something comes up that I'm wrong about, or that doesn't match what someone was once told by one Japanese person on time at the mall. :rolleyes: )

Who is the prettiest Morning Musume?

[ravdin]

Why would anyone assume you were right wing? Just because your location is listed as "The People's Republic of Berkeley?"

I suppose that would be an easy mistake on a forum that was not dedicated to critical thinking.

[ProbeX]

The deep Obama bow while shaking hands is not doing it right.

I don't see the big deal. It's not traditional, but it's harmless. Obama shared a bit of American culture (hand shake), while acknowledged their culture as well (bowing). A harmless, albeit creative, mix-n-match. How does all this get moralized as someone "not doing the right [or wrong] thing"?

The New York Times article from 1994 demonstrates that it is not the traditional protocol for a president to bow. The photos linked by theprestige also show that this is not normal for high ranking foreign visitors.

In this case you're placing to much of a premium on "tradition". Certain traditions endure because people have chosen to play follow-the-leader, not necessarily because the tradition is reasonable. It is possible Obama has started a new trend which could become "tradition". Then, someone else one day will whine when that tradition is broken. Can't you see how silly it all really is? The men met, no one got hurt, and life went on.

[tyr_13]

Who is the prettiest Morning Musume?

Are they still around?

[Sporanox]

No it can not reasonably be shown to be that. It could shown to be poorly done, but not showing formal weakness any more than a limp handshake.

Yes, the Emperor takes the superior position in that situation.

Apparently, t3h academic expert thinks so. Again, your word against his. I was rationalizing how his explanation and your explanation could perhaps be similar.

You link to a stupid partisan video about how other people didn't bow, and that makes Obama's bowing at all wrong? No, that doesn't follow. How on earth do you consider that a 'consensus'?


While in hindsight this isn't the consensus I was trying to portray, it is a demonstration of the proper way to greet the Emperor if you are a head of state.


It's ignorant to believe that people both here and in Japan wouldn't read different things into it. People who don't like Obama will read 'weakness' in it because that's what they already believe. If you asked a thousand Americans about proper handshaking form, you'll get nearly a thousand different answers. Reading into this at all is stupid from the get go.

Well, if one's conclusion was that Obama was deliberately trying to show weakness, then that would indeed be stupid. However, he could accidentally give off that impression.

[Unabogie]

I suppose that would be an easy mistake on a forum that was not dedicated to critical thinking.

*Shrug*

If you use right wing memes, it's only natural to assume that you're right wing. If you want to be seen as more neutral, try and avoid calling people you think are too left "communists".

[ravdin]

*Shrug*

If you use right wing memes, it's only natural to assume that you're right wing. If you want to be seen as more neutral, try and avoid calling people you think are too left "communists".

I see you're not familiar with Berkeley. Many people here are actually proud of that nickname and Berkeley's far left reputation. You can buy t-shirts like this on the street near campus.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31vL93GHyFL._SS400_.jpg

ETA: Even if I am anti-communist, why would that automatically put me in opposition to President Obama's policies? I don't buy that FOX News propaganda and neither should you.

[gtc]

*Shrug*

If you use right wing memes, it's only natural to assume that you're right wing. If you want to be seen as more neutral, try and avoid calling people you think are too left "communists".

We've already seen in this thread that your assumptions aren't worth much.

[Unabogie]

We've already seen in this thread that your assumptions aren't worth much.

Who is this "we", partner?

[gtc]

People who have been keeping up:

I naturally thought he'd like to voice his outrage at Bush as well. And you, too. I'm sure you were pissed as hell when Bush did that.

You have been shown to be making unreasonable assumptions several times in this thread.

Correcting your erroneous assumptions has dragged this thread out.

[Ryokan]

Are they still around?

Yes. And even if the group wasn't, the girls still are.. :)

[commandlinegamer]

Ok. So everyone agrees that the bow wasn't the correct thing to do, at least to some degree.

No.

[Architect]

Oops.

[ARubberChickenWithAPulley]

This seems to be the crux of your argument and is simply wrong.

No, it's not. Sorry, I don't know what else to tell you.


They are not equals in that situation. For example, at the dojo I bow to people and say, "Ohio gozaimasu," to people who would have to do the same to me in the English classroom.

And this contradicts your entire point. The Emperor's age doesn't matter. His position relative to Obama (both heads of state. And yes, I know the Emperor isn't "officially" the HOS, but he fulfills the duties of one) does. Similarly, whether you are younger or older than your students, when you are in the position as a teacher (in the classroom), they bow and say "Ohayo gozaimasu." When your students are in the position of teacher (in the dojo), it's the opposite. In the case of Obama and the Emperor, they are in an equal position. The Emperor is not a teacher and Obama is not a student. They are both "teachers," so to speak (and being from different organizations, the Emperor doesn't get to be Obama's senpai).


Obama is speaking to someone who was born in 1933 while in that man's country, with that man being the Emperor.

It doesn't matter if you believe that they are 'equals' otherwise (I certainly hold Obama to have far, far more power than the Emperor), but where they were, the Emperor was the 'superior'.

And this is also a contradiction. You claim that a bow is never a show of subservience, yet persist in claiming that the Emperor was in a position of superiority, therefore Obama bowed. And you (above) use two clear examples of subservience (teachers and students) to illustrate this.

As I mentioned earlier, I did not, nor was I ever expected to bow deeply to people in the same position as me, simply because they were older or because we were in their home country. I certainly didn't salute (or bow to) Korean or Japanese officers of equal rank when I was in the military. I saluted superior officers, as is customary. And their junior officers saluted me (regardless of whether they happened to be older than me or not). As the (ceremonial) Japanese head of state, the Emperor is not superior to President Obama, he is an equal.


And as has been point out many times at this point, bowing is not showing subservience today. It's a tradition only slightly more complex than the handshake. He didn't kowtow.

That you have "pointed out" this claim many times doesn't make it true. And I have explained several times, normal bowing does not express subservience. Bowing deeply, in a, well, subservient manner, does. There is a reason many Japanese companies still force junior employees to bow lower than senior employees. It's not just for the heck of it. There's a reason that my sister-in-law, who is Japanese, hates having to bow lower than other employees. She finds it insulting.


I'd love all these expert gaijin to show that they understand what this means to the Japanese at all.

Really, you're throwing out the "gaijin" card"? There are quite a few "gaijin" on this forum who have plenty of experience in Asia, both living and working, and speak the language, have degrees in related subjects, and so on. I don't mind that you disagree with me, but let's not play the "you're more of a gaijin than me!" game.

[quarky]

Being humble is not a sign of weakness. Hopefully, the cowboy mystique is fading, and Americans will be able to get right with the world. We won't be able to bully our way through the new challenges we all face.

[sackett]

such a pansy, Hirohito would've done the air dance in 1945, and this could never be an issue.

Next we'll be hearing Barry O'Bama (of course he's Irish, isn't everybody?) crying "Tenno heika BANZAI!" Oh god, lay me down.

[tyr_13]

No, it's not. Sorry, I don't know what else to tell you.



And this contradicts your entire point. The Emperor's age doesn't matter. His position relative to Obama (both heads of state. And yes, I know the Emperor isn't "officially" the HOS, but he fulfills the duties of one) does. Similarly, whether you are younger or older than your students, when you are in the position as a teacher (in the classroom), they bow and say "Ohayo gozaimasu." When your students are in the position of teacher (in the dojo), it's the opposite. In the case of Obama and the Emperor, they are in an equal position. The Emperor is not a teacher and Obama is not a student. They are both "teachers," so to speak (and being from different organizations, the Emperor doesn't get to be Obama's senpai).

You've missed the point again. Outside of other contexts, age does matter. Inside of this context, they were still in Japan. My example was about location.



And this is also a contradiction. You claim that a bow is never a show of subservience, yet persist in claiming that the Emperor was in a position of superiority, therefore Obama bowed. And you (above) use two clear examples of subservience (teachers and students) to illustrate this.

As I mentioned earlier, I did not, nor was I ever expected to bow deeply to people in the same position as me, simply because they were older or because we were in their home country. I certainly didn't salute (or bow to) Korean or Japanese officers of equal rank when I was in the military. I saluted superior officers, as is customary. And their junior officers saluted me (regardless of whether they happened to be older than me or not). As the (ceremonial) Japanese head of state, the Emperor is not superior to President Obama, he is an equal.

Bowing is no longer a sign of subservience. That doesn't mean the tradition's protocols are not tied to the origin.



That you have "pointed out" this claim many times doesn't make it true. And I have explained several times, normal bowing does not express subservience. Bowing deeply, in a, well, subservient manner, does. There is a reason many Japanese companies still force junior employees to bow lower than senior employees. It's not just for the heck of it. There's a reason that my sister-in-law, who is Japanese, hates having to bow lower than other employees. She finds it insulting.

And a lot of people in the sales industry don't like shaking hands. I don't. I prefer the fist bump. Does that mean that I would get away with not shaking the President's hand? Does that mean I shouldn't shake customer's hands at my job?

So you believe that bowing low was wrong, and it may have been. He isn't wrong to bow though. It doesn't show weakness. Again, many people in the US and Japan are going to disagree, just like always, on matters of 'tradition'.



Really, you're throwing out the "gaijin" card"? There are quite a few "gaijin" on this forum who have plenty of experience in Asia, both living and working, and speak the language, have degrees in related subjects, and so on. I don't mind that you disagree with me, but let's not play the "you're more of a gaijin than me!" game.

No, it's directed at the people who feel that any bowing by a president is subservient. It's directed at people who have no idea what the term even means and yet think they can speak authoritatively on something as hazy as bowing form.

And mostly, it's direct at people like you and me. To think that any can speak for their own culture on something like this is silly; to think that non-natives can is crazy. There are entire books from professionals who have studied social interaction, cultures, and traditions, and they each say different things.

It's the same type of crazy that says one should be insulted if your guest uses the small fork for the salad, or grabs a cup not by the handle, or that saying "hello," to a woman you're interested in is too formal. Different people are going to give different answers.

It's for us people who are silly enough to think that we can answer an opinion question that natives themselves could have trouble answering.

[Travis]

I'm curious as to what the actual people in Japan think of all this?

[Dr Adequate]

Here, let the Washington Times (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/nov/17/pruden-obama-bows-the-nation-cringes/?feat=home_headlines) explain:

It's no fault of the president that he has no natural instinct or blood impulse for what the America of "the 57 states" is about. He was sired by a Kenyan father, born to a mother attracted to men of the Third World and reared by grandparents in Hawaii, a paradise far from the American mainstream.

Remember, fatuous criticisms of Obama are not about race. They're about his "blood impulse".

[shuize]

I'm curious as to what the actual people in Japan think of all this?


I've lived in Japan for about 10 years and I don't think I've ever bowed that deeply to anyone. Then again, I've never really felt the need to kiss anyone's ass here either. I guarantee if I was a head of state I would not.

But, as mentioned above, it may be that someone likely gave him some bad advice.

[Puppycow]

I'm curious as to what the actual people in Japan think of all this?

They mostly seem to be of the "what's all the fuss about" camp.
Judging from the local media. I'll keep watching. They are aware of the story.

Bowing is a normal thing to do here of course, and Gaijin aren't expected to get it exactly right.

I don't believe that America's enemies look at this and think to themselves that "here is a weak-kneed subserviant guy we can push around." But then, I don't know; maybe there are people out there who do think that way.

The issue is mostly a domestic one. There is a nationalistic cultural American tradition that frowns on bowing to royalty. I cringed when I saw it not because I personally care but because I knew it would bring up the same feelings that happened last time with the Saudi King. I support Obama and I don't want him to hand his political enemies a club or fodder for their hate-fest.

BTW, the ADL has recently released a report on growing extremism in America.
It's called Rage Grows in America: Anti-Government Conspiracies (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/35159_ADL_Special_Report-_A_Year_of_Growing_Animosity). This will be more fodder for the haters to throw on the bonfire. It's not healthy.

[Juniversal]

The fact you're all arguring the logistics of a bow is beyond rediculous. I could understand if he kissed his feet and said "I am not worthy" but beyond that is completely pointless. He was showing respect. Case closed.

[Juniversal]

Here, let the Washington Times (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/nov/17/pruden-obama-bows-the-nation-cringes/?feat=home_headlines) explain:

It's no fault of the president that he has no natural instinct or blood impulse for what the America of "the 57 states" is about. He was sired by a Kenyan father, born to a mother attracted to men of the Third World and reared by grandparents in Hawaii, a paradise far from the American mainstream.

Remember, fatuous criticisms of Obama are not about race. They're about his "blood impulse".Translation: "He ain't a real (white) American!!!"

[Dr Adequate]

It's the "blood impulse" bit that really makes me laugh.

Wost. Attempt. To. Disguise. Racism. Ever.

[KoihimeNakamura]

Ah, poisoning the well.

[leftysergeant]

such a pansy, Hirohito would've done the air dance in 1945, and this could never be an issue.

Not even amusing, if you meant it sarcasticly.

[ARubberChickenWithAPulley]

You've missed the point again. Outside of other contexts, age does matter. Inside of this context, they were still in Japan. My example was about location.

Their positions trump their age, in this case. Like I said, I've been in similar situations (where people are of the same position but older than me), and a deep bow has never been expected.


Bowing is no longer a sign of subservience. That doesn't mean the tradition's protocols are not tied to the origin.

I disagree. Younger generations in Japan are moving in that direction, but bowing in certain situations is still about placing oneself in an inferior position. That includes bowing to the Emperor, bowing to a senpai, etc. It still exists in companies and schools, etc.


And a lot of people in the sales industry don't like shaking hands. I don't. I prefer the fist bump. Does that mean that I would get away with not shaking the President's hand? Does that mean I shouldn't shake customer's hands at my job?

It goes back to expectations and protocol. There is no expectation for a foreign leader to bow deeply to the Japanese Emperor. That is clear. While I don't have an issue with the bow itself (and actually I think it's a nice gesture), not doing it would not be noticed by anyone. Shaking hands is expected and, as such, would be noticed if you didn't do it.


So you believe that bowing low was wrong, and it may have been. He isn't wrong to bow though. It doesn't show weakness. Again, many people in the US and Japan are going to disagree, just like always, on matters of 'tradition'.

Sure. We are disagreeing about his form. I think the criticism is case of "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing." The criticism of the form (namely the handshake, and then bowing in a way usually associated with inferiority or subservience) is basically accurate. His critics have seized on a minor flub (so Obama isn't great at bowing... so what) and are pretending it matters.


And mostly, it's direct at people like you and me. To think that any can speak for their own culture on something like this is silly; to think that non-natives can is crazy. There are entire books from professionals who have studied social interaction, cultures, and traditions, and they each say different things.

A lot of those professionals are "non-natives," so certainly non-natives can and have studied and commented on Japanese culture plenty. I had never heard much controversy (prior to this little issue) about what intentionally bowing lower than a person means. You can mince words (it's about "respect" or "humility" and not "inferiority") but it's hard to escape that intentionally putting oneself below someone is done as a way of... putting oneself below someone.

Of course, this is just as much about American culture as it is about Japanese culture. How (some) Americans see a President, who is supposed to be on equal footing, lowering himself to an Emperor, and so forth. Arguably, it's more about American culture than Japanese culture (hence why most of the criticism is coming from here, and not there).

[Dr Adequate]

Well thank heaven it wasn't a fist-bump.

[Dr Adequate]

Ah, poisoning the well. If that was directed at me, I should like to point out that it was not I who supplied the "poison". That's what the Washington Times actually published. I just drew your attention to it.

It is not the analytic chemists analyzing the well-water who poison the well. They just draw your attention to the presence of the poison.

[Darth Rotor]

I guess some of you non-Americans don't get a particular part of the American national character and national identity, which goes back to our funding fathers.

The varying principles do not include deference to Crowned Heads of State, though courtesy is certainly advocated. The problem with the President being overdeferential to a Crowned Head of State is that of symbols, and the failure to sustain the importantly American character of his office. I will repeat that the most likely source of this protocol mistake was due to his protocol people not having their A game on, and the President's (well intentioned) attempt to do to much.

Image is part of his job, like it or not.

Is this a major gaffe? No.

It is a gaffe? Yes.

@ Dr A: the Washington Times piece was written by whom? Wesley Pruden (My first reaction was "who the hell is he?")
So far it's a memorable trip. He established a new precedent for how American presidents should pay obeisance to kings, emperors, monarchs, sovereigns and assorted other authentic man-made masters of the universe
While that point is well made, the cheap shot he tried that you highlighted shoots himself in the foot. Pruden seems to presume malide where error or stupidity is the more likely explanation. Gee, go figure, in a paper owned by ... wait for it ... a Korean. ;) You are not likely to find a lot of pro Japanese love here, are you?
The Washington Times was founded by Unification Church leader Sun Myung Moon in 1982. Bo Hi Pak, Moon's chief aide, was the founding president and the founding chairman of the board

DR

[Peephole]

I guess some of you non-Americans don't get a particular part of the American national character and national identity, which goes back to our funding fathers.

The varying principles do not include deference to Crowned Heads of State, though courtesy is certainly advocated. The problem with the President being overdeferential to a Crowned Head of State is that of symbols, and the failure to sustain the importantly American character of his office.
Can't speak for others, but I get that. And I think it's annoyingly patronizing.

[Dancing David]

This is my experience as well. My Spanish is pretty mediocre. But any time I attempt to use it with a native Spanish speaker, they seem to really appreciate it. It's a small gesture, but it's a gesture that says "I appreciate your culture enough to try and learn it". No one cares if I mix up my verb tenses.

The upshot is that the Queen of England was smitten by them (Michelle's "horrible breach" notwithstanding), and the Emperor broke out in a big smile. Seems like successful diplomacy to me, but then again I'm not an expert like some here.


True, true.

ETA: It is sooooooo midwestern.

[KoihimeNakamura]

Dr.A: Not at you, I was commenting at the piece you posted.

[Cicero]

Forget the bow. Why did POTUS Obama duck (and cover) when asked about using atomic weapons on Japan to force them to unconditionally surrender?

JAPANESE REPORTER: "What is your understanding of the historical meaning of the A-bombing in Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Do you think it was the right decision?"

POTUS Obama: "Obviously, Japan has unique perspective on the issue of nuclear weapons as a consequence of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and that I am sure helps to motivate the Prime Minister's deep interest in this issue. I certainly would be honored, it would be meaningful for me to visit those two cities in the future. "


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TODPLQ5kSOg


Couldn't POTUS Obama find a diplomatic way to express his defense of FDR and Truman's decesion to use these weapons to bring an end to WWII?

[gtc]

I guess some of you non-Americans don't get a particular part of the American national character and national identity, which goes back to our funding fathers.

I think most Australians would understand this.

Forget the bow. Why did POTUS Obama duck (and cover) when asked about using atomic weapons on Japan to force them to unconditionally surrender?

Good pun.



Couldn't POTUS Obama find a diplomatic way to express his defense of FDR and Truman's decesion to use these weapons to bring an end to WWII?

I think he did. Pointing out that Japan has a unique opinion is a diplomatic way of saying that their opinion is not shared by others.

[Unabogie]

Forget the bow. Why did POTUS Obama duck (and cover) when asked about using atomic weapons on Japan to force them to unconditionally surrender?

JAPANESE REPORTER: "What is your understanding of the historical meaning of the A-bombing in Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Do you think it was the right decision?"

POTUS Obama: "Obviously, Japan has unique perspective on the issue of nuclear weapons as a consequence of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and that I am sure helps to motivate the Prime Minister's deep interest in this issue. I certainly would be honored, it would be meaningful for me to visit those two cities in the future. "


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TODPLQ5kSOg


Couldn't POTUS Obama find a diplomatic way to express his defense of FDR and Truman's decesion to use these weapons to bring an end to WWII?

You should start a new thread. The bow poutrage was so "last week". It's time for the next one!

[stilicho]

Eight years? This has been going on since 1995.

1995? How about since 1906? When Teddy left the US for Panama while in office there were a lot of people who thought it was unconstitutional. Come to think of it, he did rather a few things that make GWB appear angelic and sober by comparison.

[stilicho]

Couldn't POTUS Obama find a diplomatic way to express his defense of FDR and Truman's decesion to use these weapons to bring an end to WWII?

He could have pointed out that, if they'd had a third one, it would have been "Bye-bye Nagoya".

[DavidJames]

I see you're not familiar with Berkeley. Many people here are actually proud of that nickname and Berkeley's far left reputation. You can buy t-shirts like this on the street near campus.I guess you're the proverbial exception that proves the rule (whatever the hell that means). I've been to Berkeley (I lived in Pleasanton for a few years) and now near Boulder CO which also gets the People's Republican moniker. You would be the first non-right winger I've heard of who uses that term.

Maybe I just need to get out more. :)

[theprestige]

I guess you're the proverbial exception that proves the rule (whatever the hell that means).
It used to mean "proves" in the same sense as "tests", as in, "the exception that tests whether or not the rule is valid".

The idea being that if it were a true exception to the rule, then the rule wasn't valid, and either the rule needed to be re-written in a form that covered the exception to the original rule, or else the rule needed to be scrapped entirely.

Nowadays, apparently its meaning has evolved into "the exception to the rule that somehow proves that the rule is valid, because everybody knows that no rule is valid unless it has exceptions".

[Praktik]

I guess you're the proverbial exception that proves the rule (whatever the hell that means). I've been to Berkeley (I lived in Pleasanton for a few years) and now near Boulder CO which also gets the People's Republican moniker. You would be the first non-right winger I've heard of who uses that term.

Maybe I just need to get out more. :)

No all you need to do is use the "find more posts by..." feature and see the posting history.

Ravdin is most definitely right-wing. Though we shouldn't descend to caricature and assume there is no independent thinking and that ravdin just follows the right-wing mantra blindly.

But I think it is entirely fair looking at his words and coming to the conlcusion his perspective is right-wing. There should be no shame in that after all we have to sit somewhere on the spectrum.

I guess what happens with these labels is that we end up using them as shortcuts: "ah, he's ______, now I can dismiss what he says..." - and that's probably why ravdin was being cagey about his political identification.

Anyway, threads about the inner minds of posters are rarely worthwhile - so let's back to business!

Obama's bow... perhaps darth rotor is right and its just a "gaffe" and not a "huge gaffe".

Im prepared to end up there but to be honest part of me really wonders if its a gaffe at all if this viewpoint exists entirely in the mind of a segment of Americans.

What was the Japanese reaction? Any other european countries have papers snickering at Obama's "gaffe"?

[Darth Rotor]

Can't speak for others, but I get that. And I think it's annoyingly patronizing.
Given that you come from a continent still peopled with royalty, and those who suck up to them, I am pleased to sneer at your cultural backwardness.

Rush album, for fifty, Alex, and y'all still don't get it.

DR

[Darth Rotor]

I think most Australians would understand this.
I suppose you would, given the use of Pom in the vernacular. :cool:

I think he did. Pointing out that Japan has a unique opinion is a diplomatic way of saying that their opinion is not shared by others.
Aye.

[Dr Adequate]

Forget the bow. Why did POTUS Obama duck (and cover) when asked about using atomic weapons on Japan to force them to unconditionally surrender?

JAPANESE REPORTER: "What is your understanding of the historical meaning of the A-bombing in Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Do you think it was the right decision?"

POTUS Obama: "Obviously, Japan has unique perspective on the issue of nuclear weapons as a consequence of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and that I am sure helps to motivate the Prime Minister's deep interest in this issue. I certainly would be honored, it would be meaningful for me to visit those two cities in the future. "


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TODPLQ5kSOg


Couldn't POTUS Obama find a diplomatic way to express his defense of FDR and Truman's decesion to use these weapons to bring an end to WWII? Uh .. yes. Yes he could. You just quoted him doing so.

Just for kicks and giggles, would you like to tell us what you think that Obama should have said in response to that question? A paragraph or two of your own?

[ponderingturtle]

I guess some of you non-Americans don't get a particular part of the American national character and national identity, which goes back to our funding fathers.

The varying principles do not include deference to Crowned Heads of State, though courtesy is certainly advocated. The problem with the President being overdeferential to a Crowned Head of State is that of symbols, and the failure to sustain the importantly American character of his office. I will repeat that the most likely source of this protocol mistake was due to his protocol people not having their A game on, and the President's (well intentioned) attempt to do to much.

Image is part of his job, like it or not.

Is this a major gaffe? No.

How does this compare to say bowing to the Pope? I would expect at least equal outrage ammoung the founders.

[Cicero]

Uh .. yes. Yes he could. You just quoted him doing so.

Just for kicks and giggles, would you like to tell us what you think that Obama should have said in response to that question? A paragraph or two of your own?

Really? If I gave the same answer to that question on this forum you would be satisfied that I wasn't evasive and utterly noncommittal?

So my answer should be longer and more explicit than POTUS Obama's? OK.

Decisions that affect the lives of Americans and the lives of citizens of a foreign country are always an onerous task for an American President, especially during a time of war. When millions of lives had already been lost in the struggle to defeat fascism, the prospect of a weapon that could ensure the swiftest end to hostilities had to be a compelling consideration for the American Commander In Chief.

Was it the "right" decision taken by Franklin Roosevelt and his successor Harry Truman to employ the most destructive weapon in the American arsenal on an Axis country? From the Japanese perspective, the use of the Atomic weapons was an act of ignominy. From the perspective of Presidents Roosevelt and Truman, it was the final act that led to peace between our two countries.

[Darth Rotor]

How does this compare to say bowing to the Pope? I would expect at least equal outrage ammoung the founders.
I tend to agree. We once again look to the protocol officer, the bow, and the whole proceeding. For my money, Pres Bush was a bit too chummy with the Pope.

DR

[Steve]

I guess some of you non-Americans don't get a particular part of the American national character and national identity, which goes back to our funding fathers.




DR

(My bold) It's always ultimately about money, isn't it! (sorry DR, couldn't resist :)).

Anyway, with a wife who was born in Portland OR, and a number of friends and relatives born, raised, and living in the US, I think "get (this) particular part of the American national character and national identity" fairly well. This does not prevent me from finding the tempest around this particular issue to be mildly amusing and mostly ridiculous.

[Peephole]

Decisions that affect the lives of Americans and the lives of citizens of a foreign country are always an onerous task for an American President, especially during a time of war. When millions of lives had already been lost in the struggle to defeat fascism, the prospect of a weapon that could ensure the swiftest end to hostilities had to be a compelling consideration for the American Commander In Chief.

Was it the "right" decision taken by Franklin Roosevelt and his successor Harry Truman to employ the most destructive weapon in the American arsenal on an Axis country? From the Japanese perspective, the use of the Atomic weapons was an act of ignominy. From the perspective of Presidents Roosevelt and Truman, it was the final act that led to peace between our two countries.
He would have been crucified even more by right-wingers for "apologizing for America" if he had said that.

[Darth Rotor]

(My bold) It's always ultimately about money, isn't it! (sorry DR, couldn't resist :)).


Muahaha, well done, ya got me, fair and square. :) Anyway, with a wife who was born in Portland OR, and a number of friends and relatives born, raised, and living in the US, I think "get (this) particular part of the American national character and national identity" fairly well. This does not prevent me from finding the tempest around this particular issue to be mildly amusing and mostly ridiculous.
Maybe it was a slow news day ...

[Unabogie]

Aaaaaaannnnd it's a wrap folks (http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/president-obama/fox-news-polls-obamas-bow-finds-majority-of-republicans-says-its-appropriate/).

When the president of the United States is traveling overseas, do you think it is appropriate for him to bow to a foreign leader if that is the country’s custom or is it never appropriate for the president to bow to another leader?

Yes, bow when it is the proper custom: 67%

No, it is never appropriate: 26%




And furthermore...



Even more interesting, a majority of Repubicans, 53%, says the Bow is appropriate, too, versus only 40% who said it isn’t.



It’s another sign, if you needed one, of how far off to the right some contemporary conservative discourse has drifted. It’s also a mark of how absurd it is that some traditional news orgs actually felt obliged to, er, bow to the pressure to cover this particular line of criticism.

[Cicero]

He would have been crucified even more by right-wingers for "apologizing for America" if he had said that.

You will have to show me where in my post there was any hint of an apology by the President in explaining why FDR and Truman used A-Bombs on Japan.

[Sporanox]

Aaaaaaannnnd it's a wrap folks (http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/president-obama/fox-news-polls-obamas-bow-finds-majority-of-republicans-says-its-appropriate/).



And furthermore...

So, because more people believe it's right means it's right? Not really.

[ponderingturtle]

So, because more people believe it's right means it's right? Not really.

Um, we are talking about diplomacy and cultures, so yes it is right if more people believe it is right. Rather like the definition of the word "Buxom" is defined not by orrigional meanings or anything but by what most people think it means.

[Unabogie]

So, because more people believe it's right means it's right? Not really.

It means it's a non issue...or "nontroversy", if you will...just like I've been saying.

Even the majority of Republicans, polled by FOX, thinks it's a bunch of hoo-hah.

[Peephole]

Aaaaaaannnnd it's a wrap folks (http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/president-obama/fox-news-polls-obamas-bow-finds-majority-of-republicans-says-its-appropriate/).
Sorry, only internet polls count according to Cicero. Try again.

[shuize]

I don't mind that Obama bowed to the Japanese emperor. However, as noted above, as head of state he need not bow so very deeply. A slight bow is more than sufficient. Bowing as deeply as he did normally implies subservience. If one does not understand how one bows reflects ones position in society here, then one really doesn't know anything about Japan.

I don't think most Japanese people who saw this are saying to themselves "Ha, Ha, Obama just admitted the Japanese emperor is superior." More likely they're thinking, "Obama doesn't really understand Japanese culture."* All the same, appearing to grovel before another (symbolic) head of state is not something any leader should be doing. As DR suggested, I think some protocol officer dropped the ball.

* Japanese people like to think of themselves as somehow unique and inscrutable.

[Cicero]

Sorry, only internet polls count according to Cicero. Try again.

Really? Where did I say that? Good to know that telephone polls are your idea of scientific. You sure went out of your way to ignore the results of this FOX poll. Could it be beacuse your inherent bias of FOX News and their viewers is out of synch with reality?

Still waiting for your evidence where my post indicated any apology for A-Bomb drops on Japan.

[Peephole]

Really? Where did I say that? Good to know that telephone polls are your idea of scientific.
Experiencing memory loss?

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=5313905#post5313905
You sure went out of your way to ignore the results of this FOX poll. Could it be beacuse your inherent bias of FOX News and their viewers is out of synch with reality?
The poll that show 67% of Americans think there's nothing wrong with the bow? What am I supposed to react to? :confused: That it exists?
Still waiting for your evidence where my post indicated any apology for A-Bomb drops on Japan.
Did I say it does? I'm saying the only way the psychopath right-wingers won't bash him is if he goes out and says something like: "nuking Japan was way awesome, and they only regret I have is that we only had two bombs ready."

Here's Rush Limbaugh: "Obama Refuses to Defend US Bombing Of Hiroshima, Nagasakil".

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_111309/content/01125109.GUEST.html

[Cicero]

Experiencing memory loss?


Where in that link do I say "only internet polls count?" Citing the NPR poll is your idea of saying "only internet polls count?" That's rich.

The poll that show 67% of Americans think there's nothing wrong with the bow? What am I supposed to react to? :confused: That it exists?

Did I say it does? I'm saying the only way the psychopath right-wingers won't bash him is if he goes out and says something like: "nuking Japan was way awesome, and they only regret I have is that we only had two bombs ready."

Here's Rush Limbaugh: "Obama Refuses to Defend US Bombing Of Hiroshima, Nagasakil".

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_111309/content/01125109.GUEST.html

Since Limberger has to be the definition of a "right-winger," where did he say that POTUS Obama should have replied to the question by stating "nuking Japan was way awesome, and they only regret I have is that we only had two bombs ready."

The problem is POTUS Obama chose to essentially ignore the question even when it was asked a second time. But why would POTUS Obama's answer have to satisfy these "right-wingers" you speak of? Why couldn't the answer even satisfy WWII veterans, many historians, and the questioner himself?

The topic of this thread is Obama's bow to the Emperor of Japan. If you would like to split this off into a discussion of the bombing of Hiroshima, please request that or start a new thread. In this thread, please stay on topic. Thank you.

[Peephole]

Psssst, I was making fun of you.

[Cicero]

Psssst, I was making fun of you.

Now that you had your joke perhaps you could explain the foundation for the humor?

[theprestige]

Unabogie, I'm a Republican, and I think that it's appropriate to bow when greeting the Emperor of Japan. I think that such a bow should, ideally and in keeping with Japanese custom, reflect one's overall social status, one's social status relative to the Emperor, and one's awareness of and respect for Japanese customs. Finally, I think that Obama's bow was clownish, unbefitting of his status, culturally ignorant, socially inept, and diplomatically tone-deaf.

It's not the bow of equal-to-equal. It's not the bow of the President of the United States to the Emperor of Japan. It's not the bow of an educated, insightful, cultured man, well versed in foreign customs and diplomatic nuance. It's the bow of a foreign schoolboy who once heard that it's polite to bow to the Emperor.

Other heads of state--including every other American president mentioned in this thread--greet the Emperor of Japan by slightly inclining their head, in proportion to the nod of the Emperor towards them, and maintain eye contact the entire time. This is the traditional, appropriate greeting between personages of equal status.

Obama, on the other hand, inclines his upper body at the waist, until it is almost parallel with the floor, and casts his eyes at the Emperor's feet. It's not very classy, and not very impressive, no matter how you look at it.

I don't think it's treason. I don't think it's an impeachable offense. But I do think that Obama, in his own, special, appease-o-matic way, is every bit as culturally insensitive and self-centered as Bush was. Seriously. Look at his bow. Compare it to other people's bows. Is that the message you want the President to send to every foreign dignitary he meets?

[Unabogie]

Unabogie, I'm a Republican, and I think that it's appropriate to bow when greeting the Emperor of Japan. I think that such a bow should, ideally and in keeping with Japanese custom, reflect one's overall social status, one's social status relative to the Emperor, and one's awareness of and respect for Japanese customs. Finally, I think that Obama's bow was clownish, unbefitting of his status, culturally ignorant, socially inept, and diplomatically tone-deaf.

It's not the bow of equal-to-equal. It's not the bow of the President of the United States to the Emperor of Japan. It's not the bow of an educated, insightful, cultured man, well versed in foreign customs and diplomatic nuance. It's the bow of a foreign schoolboy who once heard that it's polite to bow to the Emperor.

Other heads of state--including every other American president mentioned in this thread--greet the Emperor of Japan by slightly inclining their head, in proportion to the nod of the Emperor towards them, and maintain eye contact the entire time. This is the traditional, appropriate greeting between personages of equal status.

Obama, on the other hand, inclines his upper body at the waist, until it is almost parallel with the floor, and casts his eyes at the Emperor's feet. It's not very classy, and not very impressive, no matter how you look at it.

I don't think it's treason. I don't think it's an impeachable offense. But I do think that Obama, in his own, special, appease-o-matic way, is every bit as culturally insensitive and self-centered as Bush was. Seriously. Look at his bow. Compare it to other people's bows. Is that the message you want the President to send to every foreign dignitary he meets?

"Appease-o-matic"?

It's really hard to take anyone seriously who talks this way. And to answer your question and give it more credibility than it deserves, I'll reiterate that this is just yet another stupid nitpick. No, I don't care "how low" he bowed. It was a polite greeting and I hope he does it every time they meet. I don't give a rat's arse whether my President bows too low when meeting a foreign dignitary. You know what I care about? I care when my President claims to not be restricted by any law and tortures people. I care when he starts two wars, kills hundreds of thousands of people, and then leaves it for his successor to clean up. I care when he doubles the debt through handing out all my money to millionaires and defense companies. I care when he ignores science and withdraws from the Kyoto treaty.

This, this...trifling nonsense, is so beneath my radar screen that I find it hard not to see the kerfuffle as performance art meant to make fun of conservatives.

[gtc]

That poll is a classic false dichotomy.

Bowing may be appropriate but that doesn't mean that bowing in the manner in which he did was appropriate.

I suspect they would have had a different response if the question was worded:

Do you think that Obama's bow to the Emperor of Japan was appropriate?

[GreNME]

Is this a major gaffe? No.

It is a gaffe? Yes.

Why? I have yet to see a cogent and valid explanation of this in the thread.

-----

This is my experience as well. My Spanish is pretty mediocre. But any time I attempt to use it with a native Spanish speaker, they seem to really appreciate it. It's a small gesture, but it's a gesture that says "I appreciate your culture enough to try and learn it". No one cares if I mix up my verb tenses.

The upshot is that the Queen of England was smitten by them (Michelle's "horrible breach" notwithstanding), and the Emperor broke out in a big smile. Seems like successful diplomacy to me, but then again I'm not an expert like some here.

This is probably the best explanation of the situation so far in the thread.

Again, though, it's interesting to see the Obama Derangement Syndrome is as strong as ever.

[SezMe]

Is that the message you want the President to send to every foreign dignitary he meets?
Hyperbole much?

You really think for the next 3 (or 7) years "every" diplomatic meeting the prez has will be preceeded by the others that they have the USA/Obama over a barrel?

How 'bout getting a little perspective.

[Dr Adequate]

It used to mean "proves" in the same sense as "tests", as in, "the exception that tests whether or not the rule is valid". Not so. It's from the Latin legal maxim: exceptio probat regulam in casibus non exceptis --- "The exception proves the rule in cases not excepted".

For example, suppose you tell me that a firm has casual dress Fridays. Then I could confidently deduce that the employees are required to wear formal business attire every other working day; the fact that you tell me of the exception allows me to deduce the existence of the rule.

[Belgian thought]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_8DgDi8xML5g/SejuLSihL6I/AAAAAAAAAMM/j_yQNrMwJHw/s320/George_W_Bush_Prince_Abdullah_kiss_hold_hands.jpg

It's called diplomacy and it's what Presidents do.

Yeah, but with tongues.... Ugh!

[Darth Rotor]

Why? I have yet to see a cogent and valid explanation of this in the thread.

Rubber Chicken With A pulley
Obama Derangement Syndrome is as strong as ever.
Of course it is. How does that surprise you?

[themusicteacher]

Yeah, I mean he totally should have skipped the bow and went straight to the hand-holding that W did with the Saudi Prince. Anybody say much about that (other than to make a few gay quips)? Not really. So, we come from a culture that does not bow and intend to show respect for someone from a culture that does. He bows a little too deeply and gets called a "traitor?" Hyperbole much? Look, nobody in Japan is sitting there saying, "Oh my Budda! He just totally showed deference to our figurehead, powerless leader! We own their asses now, man. Let's move to Seattle since it's ours now." I wish I could make four million bucks a year manufacturing outrage over non-issues. Why didn't I think of it first?!

[Cicero]

Not so. It's from the Latin legal maxim: exceptio probat regulam in casibus non exceptis --- "The exception proves the rule in cases not excepted".


"Quod si exceptio facit ne liceat, ubi <non sit exceptum, ibi> necesse est licere." "If the exception makes such an action unlawful, where there is no exception the action must necessarily be lawful."
Cicero

[Peephole]

"Appease-o-matic"?
Keep up with the times, Unabogie, being friendly to allied heads of state is the same as letting Hitler overrun Europe.

[Cicero]

Keep up with the times, Unabogie, being friendly to allied heads of state is the same as letting Hitler overrun Europe.

You must be channeling Neville Chamberlain's ghost.

[Grizzly Bear]

I'm not sure I cared enough about how Obama chose to greet a foreign government official, unless it was received poorly by the Japanese people. Domestic policy gives me more than enough reason to be opposed to his policies without nit picking how her greets people. Just my opinion....

[GreNME]

Rubber Chicken With A pulley

Cogent, yes. I'm not so convinced about valid, though. I suppose if viewed through the lenses of partisan-ship it might seem valid, but beyond that the explanation seems petty and pointless.

Of course it is. How does that surprise you?

Not surprised as much as dismayed. It's thinning the numbers of people with opposing viewpoints I can take seriously (or jokingly). I happen to appreciate opposing viewpoints because they help me look at things outside of my PoV, but "issues" like this aren't much better than truthers exclaiming that the pyramid on the back of the dollar bill proves the Masons are executing an ancient Egyptian plot to overthrow the world.

[Sporanox]

Heh. Who had the only expert opinion in this exchange? The "bow was a gaffe" side. To what degree was in debate among those here with firsthand experience of Japanese culture. Yet the counter response is an appeal to ridicule.

theprestige already mentioned this, but I'll mention it again: ham-fisted, stereotypical attempts at performing foreign traditions are culturally insensitive. No more, no less.

[Dr Adequate]

theprestige already mentioned this, but I'll mention it again: ham-fisted, stereotypical attempts at performing foreign traditions are culturally insensitive. No more, no less. Hence the outcry from the Japanese. They have of course expressed their disdain in the traditional Japanese fashion, by posting comments on conservative American weblogs --- a custom known as buloshitu.

[Darth Rotor]

Hence the outcry from the Japanese. They have of course expressed their disdain in the traditional Japanese fashion, by posting comments on conservative American weblogs --- a custom known as buloshitu.

Even the Japanese think Michael Moore is fat. Hai, no buloshitu.

[carlitos]

Well, this is unfortunate (http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/slideshow/photo//100128/480/b07861589f354ce698c3bf88b741d692/)...

[Praktik]

Well, this is unfortunate (http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/slideshow/photo//100128/480/b07861589f354ce698c3bf88b741d692/)...

This is exactly the kind of weakness America's enemies will pounce on!

[Shalamar]

This is exactly the kind of weakness America's enemies will pounce on!

Tampa is the USA's enemy?

[Praktik]

Tampa is the USA's enemy?

AQ, Iran and Syria all watch the news - they'll see his weakness and mark my words, they'll pounce on it!

[Upchurch]

Tampa is the USA's enemy?
Florida in general, maybe.

[Upchurch]

AQ, Iran and Syria all watch the news - they'll see his weakness and mark my words, they'll pounce on it!
Oh :rule10, now we'll have to be scared for our safety!

[carlitos]

Meh. Bush was a hugger, Obama is a bow-er. Clinton, well...

[Ladewig]

I know that when an expression becomes overused it loses its emphasis, but ... WTF!

[joobz]

Well, I for one, welcome our new Citrusy overlords.

[Beerina]

They are both heads of state. They should bow to each other, or neither should bow. It's that simple.

[joobz]

They are both heads of state. They should bow to each other, or neither should bow. It's that simple.

I thought Tampa was a city. :confused:

[carlitos]

They are both heads of state. They should bow to each other, or neither should bow. It's that simple.

Well, it's not that simple. I mean, there are the heights of the people involved, and the angle of inclination, plus the time that you hold the bow. In Japan, this is complicated. Oh, and the not bumping heads thing, too.

Wait, you weren't being serious, were you?

[johnny karate]

Is it possible that someone just forgot to wind him up?

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Funny, I just got my hands on a Japanese news magazine that covered this the other day. They were fine with it, and the American backlash caused a backlash of Japanese calling Americans arrogant :p .

[Praktik]

Funny, I just got my hands on a Japanese news magazine that covered this the other day. They were fine with it, and the American backlash caused a backlash of Japanese calling Americans arrogant :p .

Ironic that the faux-concern over the "message" being sent by bowing, was itself, a deleterious message to American allies.

[leftysergeant]

Obama grew up in Hawaii, for crying out loud. He was exposed to the Japanese customs on a regular basis. He learned proper manners, and it comes out at random when something about a situation hits the right buttons.

To show how engrained certain behaviors can become, to this day, when I am making a purchase in a Korean store, I hand the cashier the money with both hands and recieve my change with both. Occassionally, I do the same in American stores.

In my work in training scenarios, I often have to adopt certain Arab mannerisms and must stay in character for as much as eight hours a day. People meeting me for the first time now occassionally ask me if I am Middle Eastern because I point with my entire hand rather than with my idex finger.

Odd, what habits you will retain or discard when walking between cultures.

The mayor is by far his elder. His reaction was quite natural and appropriate in that context.

[theprestige]

Ironic that the faux-concern over the "message" being sent by bowing, was itself, a deleterious message to American allies.
Enh. The only international opinion I really care about these days is Vladimir Putin. I doubt he puts a lot of emphasis in images of Obama bowing to random peopole.

But I also doubt he interprets them as signs of a strong negotiating partner over whom it will be difficult to gain advantage. Come to think of it, I'm not sure Obama has given Vladimir Putin any such signs.

And let's face it: If Russia (and, to a slightly lesser extent, China) don't take you seriously, then it really doesn't matter what France or Japan or Haiti think of you.

[Sporanox]

Obama grew up in Hawaii, for crying out loud. He was exposed to the Japanese customs on a regular basis. He learned proper manners, and it comes out at random when something about a situation hits the right buttons.

That's a pretty interesting rationalization that means he should have bowed every time he shook hands with Hillary.

[leftysergeant]

That's a pretty interesting rationalization that means he should have bowed every time he shook hands with Hillary.

Hillary isn't Japanese. He would have no reason to think it an appropriate gesture. It would be like saying "Kefalek" when greeting a rabbi.

[Ladewig]

The mayor is by far his elder. His reaction was quite natural and appropriate in that context.

Dude, I'm on the left side, but even I can't buy what you are selling. The mayor is 50; President Obama is 48. He is a head of state; she is head of a city within that nation. His reaction is neither natural nor appropriate.

[Ladewig]

Hillary isn't Japanese.

Neither was the mayor.

[leftysergeant]

Neither was the mayor.

Look at her pictures, though. She looks just enough like an older Japanese woman to que the response. And then there is the confusion that the name can create.

And then there is the fact that she is kind of short comapred to Obama.

This is a big to-do about very little.

As I mentioned, some of the odd cultural things I have picked up elsewhere still carry over into my normal life here.

[Sporanox]

Look at her pictures, though. She looks just enough like an older Japanese woman to que the response. And then there is the confusion that the name can create.

And then there is the fact that she is kind of short comapred to Obama.

This is a big to-do about very little.

As I mentioned, some of the odd cultural things I have picked up elsewhere still carry over into my normal life here.

If Obama knows half as much about Japanese culture as you think he does, he would know freaking Iorio is not a Japanese name and she definitely does not look like a Japanese woman.

http://image.absoluteastronomy.com/images/encyclopediaimages/m/ma/mayor_pam_iorio.jpg

Your assertions are bullcrap of an even finer extraction than Chris Matthew's monologues.

[Sporanox]

http://www.hillsboroughcounty.org/legislativedelegation/photodiary/images/100_0430Iorio.JPG

Another picture. Maybe if she was Korean, I'd cut him some slack. Not for the bow, though.

[Gangularis]

You really care about the bow?? Really??

[David Wong]

Oh, wow. I thought that link was posted sarcastically to mock the nutjobs who get worked up about this kind of thing.

And people are... actually upset about it? Honestly?

Go outside, guys. Get some air.

[carlitos]

Oh, wow. I thought that link was posted sarcastically to mock the nutjobs who get worked up about this kind of thing.

That is why I posted the photo of Obama bowing to the Italian-named mayor of Tampa. Funny stuff!

[joobz]

It's even funnier watching people feel the need to defend Obama by explaining the Mayor is Japanese. That's Comedy gold!

This is the thread that keeps on giving

[Sporanox]

Oh, wow. I thought that link was posted sarcastically to mock the nutjobs who get worked up about this kind of thing.

And people are... actually upset about it? Honestly?

Go outside, guys. Get some air.

No, we're not terribly disturbed by it, so you can unwind your melodrama meter.

[leftysergeant]

It's even funnier watching people feel the need to defend Obama by explaining the Mayor is Japanese. That's Comedy gold!

This is the thread that keeps on giving

When I first saw the picture, not knowing who she was, I thought she looked Japanese. And there seem to me an awful lot of vowels in her name for a European name. I never got very far with my study of Japanese, but I do know that, phoneticly at least, it would not seem odd-sounding coming ouit of the mouth of a Japanese speaker.

My knowledge of Italian (?) names is even more limited.

The image of a short midle-aged woman with oddly-shaped eyes and a pleasant demeanor may have been just enough to trip whatever registers would send the POTUS into Jaoanaese courtesy mode.

I am still waiting to see Obama do anything to at all compare to the way the Shrub laid hands on Chancellor Merkel.

Maybe I had better lay in a couple hundred can of coffee while I wait.

[Sporanox]

When I first saw the picture, not knowing who she was, I thought she looked Japanese. And there seem to me an awful lot of vowels in her name for a European name. I never got very far with my study of Japanese, but I do know that, phoneticly at least, it would not seem odd-sounding coming ouit of the mouth of a Japanese speaker.

My knowledge of Italian (?) names is even more limited.

The image of a short midle-aged woman with oddly-shaped eyes and a pleasant demeanor may have been just enough to trip whatever registers would send the POTUS into Jaoanaese courtesy mode.

I am still waiting to see Obama do anything to at all compare to the way the Shrub laid hands on Chancellor Merkel.

Maybe I had better lay in a couple hundred can of coffee while I wait.

So, if I may infer, POTUS really doesn't know jack about Japanese people, but thought he did. This IS the thread that keeps on giving.

[leftysergeant]

So, if I may infer, POTUS really doesn't know jack about Japanese people, but thought he did. This IS the thread that keeps on giving.

I hate to think of where you might have had to stick your hand to find that one.:confused:

[Sporanox]

I hate to think of where you might have had to stick your hand to find that one.:confused:

That's my line. :boggled:

[DavidJames]

Obama Derangement Syndrome makes Bush Derangement Syndrome look like the sniffles.

[carlitos]

I think he needs better protocol people. Reset button, bowing, Region 1 DVDs to the UK, etc.

[joobz]

When I first saw the picture, not knowing who she was, I thought she looked Japanese. And there seem to me an awful lot of vowels in her name for a European name. I never got very far with my study of Japanese, but I do know that, phoneticly at least, it would not seem odd-sounding coming ouit of the mouth of a Japanese speaker.
Honestly, from that photo, she did look like she was Japanese.
But my point is, an explanation isn't needed. If someone is bugged by it, it's their problem. It would be like someone freaking out if they found out Obama played ModernWarfare 2.



My knowledge of Italian (?) names is even more limited.

The image of a short midle-aged woman with oddly-shaped eyes and a pleasant demeanor may have been just enough to trip whatever registers would send the POTUS into Jaoanaese courtesy mode.

I am still waiting to see Obama do anything to at all compare to the way the Shrub laid hands on Chancellor Merkel.

Maybe I had better lay in a couple hundred can of coffee while I wait.

Be careful lefty, It sounds like you're starting to racially profile people. :)

[carlitos]

Apparently Woodrow Wilson was worse (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_r9lc1-sInlU/SwNNUIt8P9I/AAAAAAAACqo/EAKHnX5o5q4/s400/520986.jpg).

[theprestige]

Honestly, from that photo, she did look like she was Japanese.
But my point is, an explanation isn't needed. If someone is bugged by it, it's their problem. It would be like someone freaking out if they found out Obama played ModernWarfare 2.
Which would, admittedly, be awsome.

But I don't really see a lot of people freaking out about this. Protocol gaffes are amusing and regrettable. It's hardly "freaking out" or "derangement syndrome" to be amused and/or regretful when they occur.

The fact is, Obama gives these gratuitously deep bows seemingly at random, without apparent regard for social or diplomatic context, and even without any apparent internal consistency (at least according to lefty's hilariously awful attempts at arguing otherwise).

I think we can all agree that after eight years of "Bush = chimp", pointing out that Obama's bowing rules are kinda chumpy is a mild--and a legitimate--criticism.

[DJW]

Obama Derangement Syndrome makes Bush Derangement Syndrome look like the sniffles.

No, they're the same. It just depends on your confirmation bias as to which is worse.

[Dorian Gray]

Did it occur to anyone else that Obama bowing to someone may be his way of saying "eff you" to that leader? Think about it.

[theprestige]

Did it occur to anyone else that Obama bowing to someone may be his way of saying "eff you" to that leader? Think about it.
Q: What do the Emperor of Japan, the King of Saudi Arabia, and the Mayor of Tampa, Florida all have in common?

A: Barack Obama thinks they're all bigger douchebags than Vladimir Putin.

... no, I'm afraid that even with ODS, your theory doesn't pass the laugh test. Besides, were it true, it would make Obama look like a petty jerk of epic proportions. Seriously? The Emperor of Japan has somehow earned a passive-aggressive insult from Barack Obama? The Mayor of Tampa? What would that say about him, were it true?

[shuize]

On this score Obama sort of reminds me of dumb, fresh off the boat gaijin in Japan who run around bowing at everything that moves.