Student refuses to recite Pledge of Allegiance, tells teacher to go jump off a bridge

[Careyp74]

http://www.parentdish.com/2009/11/13/student-braves-controversy-refuses-to-recite-pledge/?icid=main|main|dl1|link2|http://www.parentdish.com/2009/11/13/student-braves-controversy-refuses-to-recite-pledge/

This kid really 'stands up' for his belief.

And, as a side story, another Principal doesn't know how to handle a situation, getting everything blown out of proportion.

[Nosi]

He knows his civics and thinks outside his iPod. Unusual.

[kuroyume0161]

More power to him! :)

Since I became an atheist, if I do say the pledge, I omit the part 'under god'.

As far as I'm concerned, making it compulsory stands for everything that this nation isn't supposed to be about. Freedom of speech and popular dissent must necessilary extend even to pledges and patriotism.

[Checkmite]

"With all due respect ma'am, go jump off a bridge."??

Little prick needs at least one day's detention. You don't want to recite the pledge that's fine, but you can't tell your teacher to kill herself. If he's allowed to simply get away with that without any consequence at all, how is the teacher supposed to maintain control of the educational setting in the classroom from that point on?

[madurobob]

If it were my kid, I'd make him apologize for "going 10 year old" and resorting to insult. But, I'd be mighty proud of him either way. Good on him. He stuck to his principles even though he surely knew it would cost him social capital at school.

His mother is right, too - the teacher is really the one who owes an apology.

ETA: and I hope I would feel the same about a kid who "stuck to his principles" and politely (more or less) refused to do something that went against his fundamentalist Christian upbringing.

[Dancing David]

Yup, can't force people to say the pledge or stand for it.

[Achán hiNidráne]

I love the comment section. A truer cross section of popular American political thought--ignorant hate-filled, jingoistic, hypocritical American political thought--I have never seen! :rolleyes:

[Cainkane1]

http://www.parentdish.com/2009/11/13/student-braves-controversy-refuses-to-recite-pledge/?icid=main|main|dl1|link2|http://www.parentdish.com/2009/11/13/student-braves-controversy-refuses-to-recite-pledge/

This kid really 'stands up' for his belief.

And, as a side story, another Principal doesn't know how to handle a situation, getting everything blown out of proportion.
When I was a kid you said the Lords Prayer and or the pledge of allegiance or the punks in school would stomp you in the ground. I said the prayer and pledges because of intimidation.

[Careyp74]

"With all due respect ma'am, go jump off a bridge."??

Little prick needs at least one day's detention. You don't want to recite the pledge that's fine, but you can't tell your teacher to kill herself. If he's allowed to simply get away with that without any consequence at all, how is the teacher supposed to maintain control of the educational setting in the classroom from that point on?

'Go jump off a bridge' is a common phrase for saying 'I don't care what you are saying' it was originally "you might as well go jump off a bridge for all I care."

Taking it literally is over-reacting to the situation. What would you have said after being hassled for a few minutes for doing something you had a right to do?

[billw]

The right of students to refuse to recite the pledge has been established in US law since 1943:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette

[Careyp74]

When I was a kid you said the Lords Prayer and or the pledge of allegiance or the punks in school would stomp you in the ground. I said the prayer and pledges because of intimidation.

Would they knock your slate tablet out of your hand too? hehe. bu-dump ding!

[Achán hiNidráne]

"With all due respect ma'am, go jump off a bridge."??

Little prick needs at least one day's detention. You don't want to recite the pledge that's fine, but you can't tell your teacher to kill herself.

Wow! Hyperbole much? If he told her to go "jump in a lake" would he be suggesting that she drown herself? What other vernacular phrases can you spin into a death threat because you don't like the fact that this kid had the guts, balls, and spine to stand for his rights.

Personally, I think the boy's response was far too gentle. The proper response to this fascist sow would require a four letter word that would make the Moderators cry.

If he's allowed to simply get away with that without any consequence at all, how is the teacher supposed to maintain control of the educational setting in the classroom from that point on?

Ah yes, RESPECT MY AUTHORI-TAY! Spoken like a true totalitarian.

[drkitten]

"With all due respect ma'am, go jump off a bridge."??

Little prick needs at least one day's detention.

Not at all. If the teacher is out of line and refuses to back off, you get to push back.

I agree with the student's mother. An apology is definitely in order. From the teacher..

[Achán hiNidráne]

The right of students to refuse to recite the pledge has been established in US law since 1943:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette

Ah! Another example of liberal, activist judges spittin' our our "Merican values. Next thing ya know they're gonna let them thar "negros" into school with the white kids!

[Soapy Sam]

I recall my cousin's son refusing to recite this litany when the family moved to the USA.
As a non-US citizen he felt it would be wrong. The teacher , wisely I think, simply let him opt out.
He has since become a US citizen, a decision he made when mature enough to do so.

I have long considered this pledge to be perhaps the most alien aspect of US culture.
I actually find it rather shocking that anyone would ask a child to do this.

I sympathise with the teacher, because it is necessary to maintain discipline in order to teach and whether the cause is admirable or not, one prominent dissenter can cause a great deal of trouble- which is why I think simply letting him sit quietly during the procedure would have been best.
That said, it takes balls to make this sort of stand, especially for a kid, where peer approval is everything.
I got a kick out of his dad, too. Interesting family.

[Checkmite]

Wow! Hyperbole much? If he told her to go "jump in a lake" would he be suggesting that she drown herself? What other vernacular phrases can you spin into a death threat because you don't like the fact that this kid had the guts, balls, and spine to stand for his rights.

Bite me. I think it's completely admirable that he decided not to say the pledge.

But I'm sorry, 10 year olds can't be allowed to tell teachers to jump off bridges just because the teachers say something the kid doesn't like.

[Achán hiNidráne]

Even without the phrase "under the invisible man who lives in they sky" I think that we need to eighty-six the Pledge because it represents the very antithesis of what America is supposed to be about: freedom.

Free societies should not demand "allegiance" from its citizens. Such things are always conditional. Free societies respect dissent and don't demand conformity of thought or opinion; especially in matter of politics and culture. The Pledge is merely a mantra of open jingoism designed to reinforce mindless "patriotism" (sorry for the redundancy) while marginalizing those who have the courage not follow along with the rest of the flag-waving, "my-country-right-or-wrong" sheeple.

[drkitten]

But I'm sorry, 10 year olds can't be allowed to tell teachers to jump off bridges just because the teachers say something the kid doesn't like.

Certainly they can. They should be encouraged to tell teacher to jump off bridges when the teachers attempt to do something actively illegal.

[Achán hiNidráne]

Bite me.

HELP! HELP! Moderators! He's threatening physical harm! ;)

[Careyp74]

HELP! HELP! Moderators! He's threatening physical harm! ;)

Well played sir.

[kuroyume0161]

Well played sir.

Brilliantly played!

Talk about pots and kettles and hypocrisy. :)

ETA: Wouldn't "Bite Me" be more a possible sexual advance?

[thaiboxerken]

Bite me. I think it's completely admirable that he decided not to say the pledge.

But I'm sorry, 10 year olds can't be allowed to tell teachers to jump off bridges just because the teachers say something the kid doesn't like.

You really want people to bite you?

[Marduk]

Ah! Another example of liberal, activist judges spittin' our our "Merican values. Next thing ya know they're gonna let them thar "negros" into school with the white kids!

anyone else ever notice how Merican is almost Mexican, maybe you guys should wear badges so we can tell you apart. (yes I know)
:D

[Sunray Breaker]

That story made me a little teary eyed...That kids gonna go far.

Great story, thanks for sharing it!!!

[brodski]

HELP! HELP! Moderators! He's threatening physical harm! ;)
Only if you think he may be highly toxic to you.

[Cainkane1]

Would they knock your slate tablet out of your hand too? hehe. bu-dump ding!
HUH?

[quarky]

They should bring back "Duck and Cover" drills in public school. The little brats have no fear of authority these days.

[Finster]

If "go jump off a bridge" was the kid's first response I might say he was out of line but it sounds like he was being reasonable and the teacher escalated the situation, so - more power to him.

I stopped saying the under god part in 2nd or 3rd grade in the 70's and nobody even looked at me sideways. Of coarse I was in NJ, not Arkansas

[Yoink]

This is one amazingly mature ten year old. I wish I would have been capable of something like that at his age (of course, at that age I was in a country that would have regarded compulsory pledges of allegiance to the state as the sort of thing you'd expect to find in communist totalitarian states, not the self-described "land of the free").

[Sugriva]

I love the comment section. A truer cross section of popular American political thought--ignorant hate-filled, jingoistic, hypocritical American political thought--I have never seen! :rolleyes:
The comments are the best part:
This kid is obviously being USED by adults to further the gay agenda. What kind of straight 10 year old boy with two heterosexual parents just decides one day to disobey his teachers and face ridicule from every other classmate to support homosexuals?? He's being led into this and it's unfair to him.
:rolleyes:

[I Ratant]

Yup, can't force people to say the pledge or stand for it.
.
Or do anything.

[I Ratant]

I love the comment section. A truer cross section of popular American political thought--ignorant hate-filled, jingoistic, hypocritical American political thought--I have never seen! :rolleyes:
.
My e-mail Inbox most days. :)
See the above photo of Obie.

[Trystero4]

They should bring back "Duck and Cover" drills in public school. The little brats have no fear of authority these days.

:confused: We still have them.

[Careyp74]

:confused: We still have them.

Wow, where do you live? Do they use the alert sirens too? have they updated that '60s film on what to do in an air raid emergency?

[Cayvmann]

Even without the phrase "under the invisible man who lives in they sky" I think that we need to eighty-six the Pledge because it represents the very antithesis of what America is supposed to be about: freedom.

Free societies should not demand "allegiance" from its citizens. Such things are always conditional. Free societies respect dissent and don't demand conformity of thought or opinion; especially in matter of politics and culture. The Pledge is merely a mantra of open jingoism designed to reinforce mindless "patriotism" (sorry for the redundancy) while marginalizing those who have the courage not follow along with the rest of the flag-waving, "my-country-right-or-wrong" sheeple.

I reserve the right to agree with this statement, but I'll not pledge allegiance to any future causes we may or may not agree with.

[ToddH]

This child is obviously part of the vast gay liberal agenda to turn this county into a commie loving socialist state.

[Careyp74]

HUH?

Remember this?
http://alliecasey.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/1131461_slate_tablet.jpg

[Yoink]

Remember this?
http://alliecasey.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/1131461_slate_tablet.jpg

The screen's blank. I think you forgot to turn it on.

[ToddH]

Remember this?
http://alliecasey.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/1131461_slate_tablet.jpg

So THAT'S the new Apple tablet! I thought it would be shinier.

[JoeTheJuggler]

'Go jump off a bridge' is a common phrase for saying 'I don't care what you are saying' it was originally "you might as well go jump off a bridge for all I care."

Taking it literally is over-reacting to the situation. What would you have said after being hassled for a few minutes for doing something you had a right to do?

I agree. When I was a kid, I might have said "Go fly a kite".

This kind of response is far less problematic than forcing a kid to stand and say the Pledge of Allegiance.

[JoeTheJuggler]

Even without the phrase "under the invisible man who lives in they sky" I think that we need to eighty-six the Pledge because it represents the very antithesis of what America is supposed to be about: freedom.

Free societies should not demand "allegiance" from its citizens. Such things are always conditional. Free societies respect dissent and don't demand conformity of thought or opinion; especially in matter of politics and culture. The Pledge is merely a mantra of open jingoism designed to reinforce mindless "patriotism" (sorry for the redundancy) while marginalizing those who have the courage not follow along with the rest of the flag-waving, "my-country-right-or-wrong" sheeple.

I agree. In fact, this pledge is worse because it includes a pledge to the flag itself as well as "the republic for which it stands". (There are religious people who object to it on those grounds.)

To the broader point, the Declaration of Independence was mostly a justification for violent revolution of a regime that fails to protect Lockian natural human rights. I see no reason that our current social contract should not be just as conditional.

[In My Spare Time]

This child is obviously part of the vast gay liberal agenda to turn this county into a commie loving socialist state.

I am sick of you heteros misrepresenting the so called "gay agenda".
We're going after your country. The county will fall along with it.

[kuroyume0161]

This child is obviously part of the vast gay liberal agenda to turn this county into a commie loving socialist state.

The child must be sent to be with a Roman Catholic priest right away! We must turn him into a closeted conservative gay before it's too late! :eek:

[Sledge]

That's some balls for a ten year old. I wonder if he's a comics fan?
Doesn't matter what the press says. Doesn't matter what the politicians or the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right. This nation was founded on one principle above all else: the requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences. When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world - "No, you move."

[Ranb]

We only have the boy's side of the story, and maybe not all of that.

The Arkansas Times reports that he started refusing to say the pledge Mon., Oct. 5. By Thursday, the substitute was steamed. She told Will she knew his mother and grandmother and they would want him to recite the pledge.

Will told the Times the substitute got more and more upset. She raised her voice. By this point, Will told the newspaper, he started losing his cool too, adding: "After a few minutes, I said, 'With all due respect ma'am, go jump off a bridge.”

If a teacher got steamed simply because a child refused to recite a pledge, then that teacher does not belong in the classroom. This is something that will cause a teacher to lose the respect of the students; something that they need to be effective teachers. While the child's statement is a bit much, I think the teacher (according to this version of the truth) was screwing up big time.

Ranb

[Bill Thompson]

Is liberty and justice for all even possible?

Next: PETA kids refuse to give the pledge.

[Careyp74]

That's some balls for a ten year old. I wonder if he's a comics fan?

That Captain America comment reminds me of a quote from 'Angus'

"When a small, abnormal element is forced into a larger system, that element will either be rejected or destroyed. But it doesn't have to be that way! If...if the element is brave. If the element can hold out long enough, and face the torment of the system until the system's energy is depleted, if the element can look the system in the eye and say, 'I'm still here, *****,' then the system will have to change. Adapt. Mutate."

[madurobob]

If a teacher got steamed simply because a child refused to recite a pledge, then that teacher does not belong in the classroom. This is something that will cause a teacher to lose the respect of the students; something that they need to be effective teachers. While the child's statement is a bit much, I think the teacher (according to this version of the truth) was screwing up big time.

Ranb

I dunno. When I was a kid the substitutes NEVER got any respect; thus had none to lose. We figured they were substitutes for a reason.

[Ranb]

I dunno. When I was a kid the substitutes NEVER got any respect; thus had none to lose. We figured they were substitutes for a reason.

Good point. I remember thinking, "Why do they bother sending in a sub? They are not even trying to teach us anything" An hour with a sub in my small high school was like study hall.

But my comments were intended to be directed at any teacher. That sub's behavior if accurately quoted was wrong.

Ranb

[madurobob]

Good point. I remember thinking, "Why do they bother sending in a sub? They are not even trying to teach us anything" An hour with a sub in my small high school was like study hall.

But my comments were iontended to be directed at any teacher. That sub's behavior if accurately quoted was wrong.

Ranb


Oh, I agree, the teacher was wrong, substitute or not. And, it didn't all happen in one day, BTW. As originally reported (http://www.arktimes.com/articles/articleviewer.aspx?ArticleID=2f5d7a3b-c72a-446b-8d20-3823aa79c021) in the Arkansas Times:
The class had a substitute teacher that week, a retired educator from the district, who knew Will's mother and grandmother. Though the substitute tried to make him stand up, he respectfully refused. He did it again the next day, and the next day. Each day, the substitute got a little more cross with him. On Thursday, it finally came to a head. The teacher, Will said, told him that she knew his mother and grandmother, and they would want him to stand and say the pledge.

“She got a lot more angry and raised her voice and brought my mom and my grandma up,” Will said. “I was fuming and was too furious to really pay attention to what she was saying. After a few minutes, I said, ‘With all due respect, ma'am, you can go jump off a bridge.' ”


But, I guess in this day and age we also have to consider the bubble-boy effect. This sub knew the kids family, and the kid coincidentally chose this week to sit in protest for the pledge, the week when the sub was covering his class?

We've got an entire sub-forum here based on flimsier evidence of a conspiracy ;)

[Trystero4]

Wow, where do you live? Do they use the alert sirens too? have they updated that '60s film on what to do in an air raid emergency?

California. Earthquake country. Every year we practice ducking under our desks. :)

[JoeTheJuggler]

If a teacher got steamed simply because a child refused to recite a pledge, then that teacher does not belong in the classroom.

And it's entirely inappropriate for a teacher to say he or she knows the kid's grandmother and knows what the grandmother would want the kid to do.

So this was all to do with a substitute teacher?

[JoeTheJuggler]

This sub knew the kids family, and the kid coincidentally chose this week to sit in protest for the pledge, the week when the sub was covering his class?

I don't see any evidence that the kid chose this week to sit in protest for the pledge. Did the regular teacher try to make him stand?

From what I read, it sounds like it was the teacher that made this become a conflict.

[Dancing David]

Bite me. I think it's completely admirable that he decided not to say the pledge.

But I'm sorry, 10 year olds can't be allowed to tell teachers to jump off bridges just because the teachers say something the kid doesn't like.

Sorry a one day dentention would be extreme, there are much more disrespectful actions kids make.

And the teacher was out control, first rule of class room management: control yourself.

[Dancing David]

I dunno. When I was a kid the substitutes NEVER got any respect; thus had none to lose. We figured they were substitutes for a reason.

Thats too bad, if they can't manage then they don't come back. Welcome to the modern world.

[Ranb]

So this was all to do with a substitute teacher?

The link in the OP said the teacher was a sub.

Ranb

[ZeroTheory]

Schools I attended in IL said the pledge till about 6th grade then for whatever reason it stopped. Dozens of years later now I thought that the Pledge wasn't said at all. I'm actually kind of shocked that schools would be saying a pledge which contains 'under god' and it not make loud noise in the separation of church/state debates.
This hasn't stopped yet? Seriously?

I also oppose the pledge not just for its religious context, but I believe it to be State Indoctrination.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Oh, I agree, the teacher was wrong, substitute or not. And, it didn't all happen in one day, BTW. As originally reported (http://www.arktimes.com/articles/articleviewer.aspx?ArticleID=2f5d7a3b-c72a-446b-8d20-3823aa79c021) in the Arkansas Times:



But, I guess in this day and age we also have to consider the bubble-boy effect. This sub knew the kids family, and the kid coincidentally chose this week to sit in protest for the pledge, the week when the sub was covering his class?

We've got an entire sub-forum here based on flimsier evidence of a conspiracy ;)

More than that, we have service men and ex-service men who are serving or who have served on submarines!! :boggled:

[Checkmite]

If "go jump off a bridge" was the kid's first response I might say he was out of line but it sounds like he was being reasonable and the teacher escalated the situation, so - more power to him.

Based on what? The article is fantastically anemic. I'll grant that the teacher had no right to yell at him - even though the article doesn't say she did.

10 year olds shouldn't be talking to adults that way. "No" should be enough to mean "no". And if he has to repeat the word, then he does. That's maturity. Again, how can that teacher ever control the learning environment functionally when even young children are allowed to tell them off with impunity? The teacher may have been edging the line (the article doesn't address the truth of whether she did know the kid's family), but she did not direct him to do anything illegal or dangerous. I realize a lot of people here are all bubbly that such a little kid stood up to the horrible right-wing (or left-wing, depending on your POV) indoctrination that is the Evil Public School System; but they suffer from the same misunderstanding as the child - that standing up for your beliefs doesn't necessitate insulting or demeaning people. He chose to do so. Well, if he's "mature" enough to make that choice, then he's mature enough to face a consequence - it's that simple.

Sorry, but having spent four years at a high school where only some 60% of the students ever actually graduate, and kids regularly got suspended for telling teachers to go f' themselves over things like telling the kid not to bring their cell phone to class, I know where encouraging this particular flavor of "standing up for one's opinion" tends to lead.

[Checkmite]

And the teacher was out control.

Indeed? Was she running around screaming? Throwing things? Swearing? Calling the kid a terrorist or a traitor? I missed that part of the article.

[Sledge]

If the teacher has been illegally harrassing him for four days, "With all due respect ma'am, go jump off a bridge," is mild compared to what she deserved. I don't see why it should be any different if a kid or an adult is saying it. She broke the law. At that point, she gave up any right to claim moral superiority over a kid using the mildest rebuke I've heard since I was about six.

[Checkmite]

If the teacher has been illegally harrassing him for four days, "With all due respect ma'am, go jump off a bridge," is mild compared to what she deserved. I don't see why it should be any different if a kid or an adult is saying it. She broke the law. At that point, she gave up any right to claim moral superiority over a kid using the mildest rebuke I've heard since I was about six.

The article doesn't say she actually said anything to him at all until the fourth day, so this "illegally harrassing him for four days" nonsense is make-believe. Nor has anyone (anywhere) except you claimed that the teacher violated any laws.

[Sledge]

Ah, so she ignored it for three days then started losing her rag on the fourth day. Well that certainly makes sense.:confused:

As for the legality of it, I was under the impression that seperation of church and state was a legal requirement in the United States. My apologies if that is incorrect. Hell, I even thought the matter had been settled quite a long time ago. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette )

[Checkmite]

*shrugs*

Well, let's see if the teacher gets arrested.

[quarky]

I want a rebate. We had the pledge; the Lord's prayer (yup, public school); daily singing of "My country tis of thee" and "America the beautiful; duck and cover, and morning brainwashing sessions, wherein we learned how the Chinese commie kids were getting brainwashed in school, and being told that Americans were bad.

Toss in the absurd dress code (ties mandatory in Boston public school); mandatory showers and jock strap checks in gym class; no cars; phones; eating out of the cafeteria; holding hands; etc, etc. The bus stops were often a mile apart. Now the school bus stops in front of every rural house, and mom is there waiting.

The wildest kid in my high school of 3000+ kids, got suspended because his hair touched the top of his ear. In 1967!

Grumble grumble.


btw, people wait in line to jump off the New River bridge in West Virginia. Not the worst insult.

[JoeTheJuggler]

I want a rebate. We had the pledge; the Lord's prayer (yup, public school); daily singing of "My country tis of thee" and "America the beautiful; duck and cover, and morning brainwashing sessions, wherein we learned how the Chinese commie kids were getting brainwashed in school, and being told that Americans were bad.

Toss in the absurd dress code (ties mandatory in Boston public school); mandatory showers and jock strap checks in gym class; no cars; phones; eating out of the cafeteria; holding hands; etc, etc. The bus stops were often a mile apart. Now the school bus stops in front of every rural house, and mom is there waiting.

The wildest kid in my high school of 3000+ kids, got suspended because his hair touched the top of his ear. In 1967!


So you have no problem trading off civil liberties for obedience?

What's your stand on caning kids for defacing property with graffiti? ;)
If any means justifies the end, then you have to admit that caning and such is effective.

[Yoink]

Now, let's yanks all go and state our opinion on the Queen and her hold on Commonwealths.

Why shouldn't you have an opinion on that?

[madurobob]

I don't see any evidence that the kid chose this week to sit in protest for the pledge. Did the regular teacher try to make him stand?

From what I read, it sounds like it was the teacher that made this become a conflict.

True - I assumed that standing and reciting the pledge daily was standard school policy and not just this one sub's idea. But, I *think* the reporter for either the Arkansas Times or CNN would have mentioned this if this was the case. Also, The kid clearly states he decided over the weekend to not stand and recite the pledge that coming Monday. Whether he knew his usual teacher would be there or not is up to the conspiracy nuts.

My take is the kid decided to take a stand and cause conflict. The sub then helped tremendously by overreacting.

[quarky]

So you have no problem trading off civil liberties for obedience?

What's your stand on caning kids for defacing property with graffiti? ;)
If any means justifies the end, then you have to admit that caning and such is effective.

I have a large problem with it, and hated school. My older brother had it worse, and would get suspended frequently. Funny that the punishment for hating school and showing it, was that you had to not go for a week. It was actually concern for my mother that kept me towing the line. She couldn't handle another juvenile delinquent in the family.

Most of the graffiti I've seen has been on property that was improved by the defacing. So I'm in favor of it. I'd cane the architects, perhaps, or the slum-lords first.

Yet, graffiti implies stealth. A kid that gets caught doing it should get caned, if he's to learn. Not because he defaced property, but because he got caught.

[madurobob]

Thats too bad, if they can't manage then they don't come back. Welcome to the modern world.

This one is identified as a retiree who returned to substitute for the week. That's what I remember the bulk of my subs in middle school & high school being also. So, they managed at some point and made a career of it... but retired for a reason.

I cringe to remember how we treated them in High School. Like a buffalo herd treats its elderly, I suppose: when you get a bit too slow you become food for the wolves.

[madurobob]

More than that, we have service men and ex-service men who are serving or who have served on submarines!! :boggled:

too many "subs"?

[xXMoshtradamusXx]

Wow, where do you live? Do they use the alert sirens too? have they updated that '60s film on what to do in an air raid emergency?

I have a friend that lives just outside of Warsaw, Poland and I believe she said they still did as well. They even went as far as to have gas masks for every single student.
Poland has certainly got the short end of the stick in last century though so I can't say I blame them.

[Apathia]

Here's what struck me:

From sixth grade, I stopped doing the pledge.
Mostly because I considered myself more a citizen of the planet than a particular nationality.
Hardly anyone noticed except a Jehovah's Witness classmate who thought me then game for the witness.
No teacher tried to force me. Eventually one pointed out that I was in legal right.

The main thing:

It didn't become a national incident.

These days tiny events in obscure places become national news.

This was back in the early sixties, when what went on in an elementary school classroom wasn't politicized, and there were no media mouths to foam over it.

[xXMoshtradamusXx]

Here's what struck me:

From sixth grade, I stopped doing the pledge.
Mostly because I considered myself more a citizen of the planet than a particular nationality.
Hardly anyone noticed except a Jehovah's Witness classmate who thought me then game for the witness.
No teacher tried to force me. Eventually one pointed out that I was in legal right.

The main thing:

It didn't become a national incident.

These days tiny events in obscure places become national news.

This was back in the early sixties, when what went on in an elementary school classroom wasn't politicized, and there were no media mouths to foam over it.

From a Journalistic perspective I'm not sure how I feel about it.
Do you think such squabbles should be publicized? (That's to everyone)

[jasonpatterson]

Schools I attended in IL said the pledge till about 6th grade then for whatever reason it stopped. Dozens of years later now I thought that the Pledge wasn't said at all. I'm actually kind of shocked that schools would be saying a pledge which contains 'under god' and it not make loud noise in the separation of church/state debates.
This hasn't stopped yet? Seriously?

I also oppose the pledge not just for its religious context, but I believe it to be State Indoctrination.

Sure they do, all over the country. In every school I've worked in, it's been made abundantly clear by litigation fearing administrators that kids have the right to not say the pledge. The "under god" bit has been fussed about occasionally, but it never gets anywhere. Now and again a student of mine has skipped that part. About all you can do as a teacher is require your students to be respectful while it's going on if they aren't going to participate (normal classroom behavior level of respect that is, quiet.)

Believe it or not, some kids really appreciate saying the pledge every day. I had a student last year who was really quiet, and the class we were in was not one in which any students other than she and I ever said the pledge on any regular basis (a few would stand up most of the time, most sat quietly.) Not wanting to embarrass her, I wrote a note one day thanking her for saying it and letting her know that I recognized that it took some guts to be the only student saying this every day. She broke down crying when she read it.

I'm not saying anything bad about the kid from the story, because a similar incident occurred with me, but basically, it's not only the kids that refuse to recite the pledge who are brave. It's a whole lot easier to face down a substitute than 30 of your peers.

[I Ratant]

And the slightest hint the topic might be about gay marriage brings Bill scurrying out of the closet woodwork. Good grief, do you trawl the internet looking for discussions to turn to your personal obsession?

As a Brit, I'm amazed that anyone in the "land of the free" would think it's appropriate to insist a child pledge allegiance to anything. Sounds more like brainwashing than anything else.
.
Way back in the olden days.... 1940's.... we'd place our right hand over our hearts and extend during the pledge.
ISTR that went away as resembling the Nazi gruss after WWII.
The "under god" crap is just merely the result of paranoia in the '50s due to the commie scares.
One need not say that when reciting the pledge.
I don't.
But one should know and recite the rest of the pledge, in my opinion.

[fuelair]

"With all due respect ma'am, go jump off a bridge."??

Little prick needs at least one day's detention. You don't want to recite the pledge that's fine, but you can't tell your teacher to kill herself. If he's allowed to simply get away with that without any consequence at all, how is the teacher supposed to maintain control of the educational setting in the classroom from that point on?

Basically, I have no problem with kids who choose not to recite the PofA - as long as they are not disruptive during it. However, I let them be aware that IF they plan to join the military OR go for a job and either is in a position that requires security clearance their teachers will (unless procedures for background checks have changed since I had my background checked to work at Ft. Detrick)be among the interviewed. Those interviewed will be asked questions about (essentially) patriotism and related. And I point out that it is easy to remember those who stand out in any of several ways - and I DO NOT lie or cover up when speaking with Federal Agents.:)

And, to clarify, I really don't care, but I really do have a good memory and don't lie to certain branches of the Fed.

[Foolmewunz]

Fuelair,
I don't think I'd want a job where the security "professionals" were so paranoid that they went back to my fifth grade teacher to vet me. The kid is 10.

[fuelair]

Fuelair,
I don't think I'd want a job where the security "professionals" were so paranoid that they went back to my fifth grade teacher to vet me. The kid is 10.

In the position I had I could have easily stolen enough of a certain toxin to have poisoned over half of DC by simply getting it to any major reservoir. Easily is a phrase that means I occasionally carried untagged 1 liter flasks of a Staph.enterotoxin (the bad one) from one point on the base to another* - unguarded, unwatched and all that would have been required is enough time and a bottle and a mask to pour a reasonable amount out , secrete it away and fill the flask back up with distilled water. The tests they were doing would have only been affected slightly and it would almost certainly have gone unnoticed. Humorously, I did not want the job - it was given me after I was background checked. I know how far the check went because Donelson was a bit tighter community than the FBI may have realized - my parents were called by several people to find out why I was being checked - and , yes, two of the callers had been among my teachers.

Neither was an elementary school teacher (that only indicates I KNOW they went into early high school (middle school now) but assuming the lad goes into high school continuing this.....

I really am not kidding about not caring if a student decides not to, by the way - but I will always give my students potentially useful information when I can. They also have a right to any information affecting choices they make.


* If anybody on here is familiar with Ft. Detrick in the 60s/70s they should be able to verify that Detrick had a freely roamable (well, fairly so) outer area and a second area "behind the fence " that required a Black Security card (because it was black, had your photo and ID info on it and was for Security to check you out).

[MattusMaximus]

We need more freethinking kids like this in school :D

Hell, I'm a teacher, and our school recites the pledge every morning. But I don't lead my class (I'm usually too busy putting the day's assignment on the board) - I leave it to them to say, or not say, the pledge as they see fit when it comes over the intercom. As 16, 17, and 18 year old young men & women, it's about damn time they start thinking for themselves instead of having an authority figure (me) doing it for them.

ETA: Osama bin Laden could recite the Pledge of Allegiance - would that make him a good U.S. citizen? Or, on the flip side, if former president Bush (junior or senior) refused to say the Pledge, would that make him a bad U.S. citizen? These are questions I sometimes pose to my students in my free time. It's nice to see them thinking about these things as opposed to mindlessly following along simply because they've been told to do so.

[Nosi]

"With all due respect ma'am, go jump off a bridge."??

Little prick needs at least one day's detention. You don't want to recite the pledge that's fine, but you can't tell your teacher to kill herself. If he's allowed to simply get away with that without any consequence at all, how is the teacher supposed to maintain control of the educational setting in the classroom from that point on?

The bridge could be over the river Bonsai. (http://www.redwoodbridges.com/images/chris-bridge1.jpg) And the teacher was not being 'gentle or polite' at this stage. From what I read, and the text was less than clear, that the substitute got out of bounds at this stage by a child challenging her authority.

[Careyp74]

---snip---

I had a similar inquiry done into my past when I was enlisted in the navy. My rate and the fact that I was signed up for submarine duty required a thorough check for a Higher than Secret security clearance check. They interviewed local police, checked high school records (my mom is friends with the school administrator, I went to school with her son) even interviewed neighbors. Oh, and talked to past employers.

Fuelair,
I don't think I'd want a job where the security "professionals" were so paranoid that they went back to my fifth grade teacher to vet me. The kid is 10.

I didn't have any super special position, and had a similar check done, although I will admit I don't know of any interviews with my elementary teachers. Who would remember anything from 8 or 9 years ago, about one student?

[drkitten]

Basically, I have no problem with kids who choose not to recite the PofA - as long as they are not disruptive during it. However, I let them be aware that IF they plan to join the military OR go for a job and either is in a position that requires security clearance their teachers will (unless procedures for background checks have changed since I had my background checked to work at Ft. Detrick)be among the interviewed. Those interviewed will be asked questions about (essentially) patriotism and related. And I point out that it is easy to remember those who stand out in any of several ways - and I DO NOT lie or cover up when speaking with Federal Agents.:)

And, to clarify, I really don't care, but I really do have a good memory and don't lie to certain branches of the Fed.

... and I'd like to point out that the officers doing the background checks are extremely unlikely to go back to their grade school teachers, because, fundamentally, no one gives a flying hamster turd what you did when you were twelve.

Indeed, most of the questions involved in the background checks for the agencies I've worked with explicitly have something like a five year time limit for most of the "background" questions. So even if you were a pothead in high school, that won't mess up your post-collegiate career with the NSA, because the NSA accepts and acknowledges that kids are kids.

[quarky]

I wish I could remember what us bad kids actually said during the pledge. Lots of homophones. I still remember how we butchered the Lord's Prayer.

(God is still pissed about it, too.)

[LTC8K6]

Substitute teachers were always dead meat...

[LTC8K6]

I wish I could remember what us bad kids actually said during the pledge. Lots of homophones. I still remember how we butchered the Lord's Prayer.

(God is still pissed about it, too.)

Yeah, we said all sorts of things. Seldom the actual pledge. Quite a few would violate the posting rules here.

I do think he should simply have continued to politely decline instead of losing his cool, but he's only a kid...

I also wish he was refusing simply because he didn't want to, rather than trying to push a political agenda in his classroom.

[I Ratant]

Substitute teachers were always dead meat...
.
Would she have been Ms. Crunt or Ms. Prussy? :)

[Aepervius]

"With all due respect ma'am, go jump off a bridge."??

Little prick needs at least one day's detention. You don't want to recite the pledge that's fine, but you can't tell your teacher to kill herself. If he's allowed to simply get away with that without any consequence at all, how is the teacher supposed to maintain control of the educational setting in the classroom from that point on?

But what *DID* the substitute do and say ? Or are you saying it does not matter, the substitute could have escalated the situation even using untoward language in a very immature fashion, but the kid just say that sentence and get punished ?

Respect has to be two sided. If the substitute was going out of the line, then the kid should not be punished, the substitute should. The escalation is most probably the substitute fault, as the substitute could simply have IGNORED the kid, and the substitute could have checked there was already a supreme court decision saying the kid is allowed NOT to recite the pledge of alliance.

The problem is here we do not have enough info to say either way. But it looks to me the substitute might actually have got out of the line.

[uruk]

~snip~
And the teacher was out control, first rule of class room management: control yourself.

I think that was the issue for the substitute teacher. I don't think she was so much upset with the boy for refusing to say the PoA, but more to that she may have felt that the boy was challenging her authority.

Being an instructor, I can tell you that class room managment is important and respect for the authority of the teacher is paramount to that end.
As many of the posters here have pointed out, substitute teachers get very little respect from students.

Granted the teacher in question handeld the situation poorly. The report does not say if the teacher had asked the boy why he was refusing to say the PoA.
If the boy's reasoning had been made clear to the teacher, the situation could have turned into a learning opportunity, (depending on the political leanings of the teacher)
even if it is just to circumvent any of the other students inevitable aping of " Yea, I don't wanna say it either because of what he said and stuff."


Edited to add one thought: I have always been wary of the practice of making young children recite the pledge. The pledge has no meaning to children of a very young age because they do not understand what it is they are doing or saying.
It is more inculcation and indoctrination than a concious or consenting pledge.
It is like being born into a religious belief. You go to church not understanding what it is all that business is about untill you reach an age where you do understand what is going on, but by then it has become something you have always done and a part of the routine of your life.

You still have no real understanding of what you are doing or why you are doing it, just that you have always done so and are accustomed to it and you feel uncomfortable when you don't do it.

[Aepervius]

Fuelair, that still made no sense to go that far back. Think about it : who will you really vet out with that ? Unpatriotic people ? People most likely to be spy ? Insane people ? All of the aforementioned group would highly probably correlate to far higher suspicious activity *later* in adult life.

That is about the same as the threat of employer checking out your middle school repport to see if you were naughty. Even when I worked under strict NDA for the military they did not go that far (or I would not have worked for them).

[Checkmite]

Excuse me whilst I do my victory dance, because I'm that much of a jerk. :D

You don't get a victory dance until the teacher is prosecuted!

[Steampunked]

Rod Serling did something similar and gave a great speech on why he did:

rodserling-dot- com/JMmp68speech.htm


There seem to have arisen some complications relevant to my appearance here this evening that should be clarified before I begin. Plainly and simply. I refused to sign a loyalty oath which was submitted to me as a prerequisite both for my appearance and my pay. I gather that your local newspaper and some of its readers read dire and menacing implications in this refusal of mine, and I broach the whole thing only by way of a kind of personal disclaimer.

Number one, I have no interest in overthrowing the government of the United States and number two, to the best of my knowledge I have not or am not now a member of a subversive organization whose aims are similar. I know there are many of you out there who’ve put me in a genetic classification of someplace between a misanthropic kook and an ungracious dope. Actually, I’m neither. I did not sign the loyalty oath and I waived my normal speaking fee, only because of a principle. I think a requirement that a man affix his signature to a document, reaffirming loyalty, in on one hand ludicrous—and on the other demeaning.

Rod Serling at Moorpark College in 1968A time-honored concept of Anglo-Saxon justice declares that a man is innocent until proven guilty. I believe that in a democratic society a man is similarly loyal until proven disloyal. No testaments of faith, no protestations of affection for his native load, and no amount of signatures will prove a bloody thing—one way or the other as to a man’s patriotism or lack thereof. The concept of the loyalty oath is a new one in the United States—in its present form it dates back less than twenty years. It’s been around for a number of decades in different countries under decidedly different forms of government. It was a requirement in Nazi Germany and in Fascist Italy, and is currently a prerequisite for the status of citizenship in the Soviet Union.

...

[Sledge]

You don't get a victory dance until the teacher is prosecuted!

Hell, I've got sciatica causing serious leg pain at the moment, so I don't get a victory dance anyway.:(

[Whiplash]

There should be some requirement for students to be respectful of their teachers, even if they are wrong. I'm not saying that they shouldn't challenge anything, ever. But to say it's just fine and dandy for him to say "jump off a bridge" is borderline lunacy. I'm sorry to see so many fall into it. It's disrespectful, at the very least. Even if the teacher was disrespectful first (which is also wrong, and should be punished). Two wrongs don't make a right, I get sick of having to say that around these forums. Especially a so called critical thinking and skeptical forum.

And the fact that he said "With all due respect..." first means jack squat. We've all seen that people will always use that phrase, right before they end up being completely disrespectful. They think it's a magical phrase that negates what they are about to do.

It's like saying "Please don't confuse what I'm about to do with murder" and then stabbing someone in the liver.

"I don't mean to be insulting but.. you are an idiot".
"Please don't take this the wrong way but.. you are a stupid redneck".
Etc, etc.

[king catfish]

Basically, I have no problem with kids who choose not to recite the PofA - as long as they are not disruptive during it. However, I let them be aware that IF they plan to join the military OR go for a job and either is in a position that requires security clearance their teachers will (unless procedures for background checks have changed since I had my background checked to work at Ft. Detrick)be among the interviewed. Those interviewed will be asked questions about (essentially) patriotism and related. And I point out that it is easy to remember those who stand out in any of several ways - and I DO NOT lie or cover up when speaking with Federal Agents.:)

And, to clarify, I really don't care, but I really do have a good memory and don't lie to certain branches of the Fed.


My BS detector is going off. I had a secret clearance in the Army (for a very mundane and unexciting reason), and I was, let's say, not really a pleasant HS student. I would be very surprised if I was not remembered in a negative light by the majority of my teachers (long story, I won't derail this thread over it), and I would be even more surprised if anyone had even bothered to ask them about me.

EDITED TO ADD: Just anecdotal, I'm not calling anyone a liar.

[Sledge]

I'd say it would have been fine for him to invite the teacher to go fornicate herself with an anglepoise lamp. She'd been hassling the kid for four days over something she had no right to insist he take part in. I'm impressed that he had both the balls to stick to what his guns and not resort to far worse abuse. If I ever have kids, I hope I can bring them up to act like that.

[king catfish]

There should be some requirement for students to be respectful of their teachers, even if they are wrong. I'm not saying that they shouldn't challenge anything, ever. But to say it's just fine and dandy for him to say "jump off a bridge" is borderline lunacy. I'm sorry to see so many fall into it. It's disrespectful, at the very least. Even if the teacher was disrespectful first (which is also wrong, and should be punished). Two wrongs don't make a right, I get sick of having to say that around these forums. Especially a so called critical thinking and skeptical forum.

Lunacy? Surely this is hyperbole.

And the fact that he said "With all due respect..." first means jack squat. We've all seen that people will always use that phrase, right before they end up being completely disrespectful. They think it's a magical phrase that negates what they are about to do.

It's like saying "Please don't confuse what I'm about to do with murder" and then stabbing someone in the liver.

"I don't mean to be insulting but.. you are an idiot".
"Please don't take this the wrong way but.. you are a stupid redneck".
Etc, etc.

I can't argue with this. "With all due respect" is the very definition of weasel words (or something to that effect), in my humble opinion.

[Sledge]

I don't see it as weasel words. The teacher was due no respect, and she received exactly that.

[Sabrina]

Just to clarify a point; the farthest back a security clearance check goes is 10 years (that being for a TS/SCI clearance), but it's solely so they can verify your past employers and past addresses, not to check up on your activities in high school. They will dig into your background, yes (I've had it done more times than I care to recall as of right now), but I think they leave any actions prior to 18 alone, considering at that time you are a juvenile and most actions would be considered inadmissable for the same reason they're inadmissable in a court of law. Please note, I'm not 100% positive of that, but considering the detailed background checks I've gone through during my military and civilian careers, I feel qualified to speak to this subject. The most they'd probably do is contact your high school to verify that you in fact graduated if that's what you put down on your form; they likely wouldn't bother trying to speak to your teachers, because how do they know that the teachers would even remember you? By that time they've taught several hundred more kids! The likelihood that they'd remember one kid out of the herd is pretty unlikely, IMO.

As to the OP, while I do think the little boy stepped a tad over the line with his response to the teacher, I think he was fully justified in getting a little frustrated with her, and considering he's not going to necessarily be mature enough at his age to realize that sometimes it's best to not say anything, I think he can be forgiven so long as he is told and understands that sort of response is not the best sort of response; I'd balk at requiring an apology though. The teacher, IMHO, stepped COMPLETELY over the line by trying to intimidate a ten-year-old in the manner that occurred, and really ought to tender an apology to him for her actions. I'm a fairly patriotic person, but I'm also a Unitarian Universalist who recognizes that each persons' beliefs are their own and should be respected as such. I applaud this kid for standing up for what he believes; I hope he keeps doing it, albeit with a little more respect for authority figures. ;)

[sugarb]

My BS detector is going off. I had a secret clearance in the Army (for a very mundane and unexciting reason), and I was, let's say, not really a pleasant HS student. I would be very surprised if I was not remembered in a negative light by the majority of my teachers (long story, I won't derail this thread over it), and I would be even more surprised if anyone had even bothered to ask them about me.

EDITED TO ADD: Just anecdotal, I'm not calling anyone a liar.

When my sister joined the Army, in the process of security clearance, our neighbors were interviewed, some high school teachers, even some people we simply went to church with. I didn't understand why...but it did happen, and I can remember most of them coming to the house wanting to know why people were coming around asking questions about her. (she was a linguist. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that clearance for certain other things would be an even more invasive check). This was...mmm, about 14/15 years ago.

[Sledge]

I agree with most of what you say, Sabrina, but I don't understand why you think he should have shown respect to this authority figure once they overstepped their authority.

[Bill Thompson]

Do other countries force their young to proclaim loyalty to their motherland?

Wasn't this just supposed to be a way to make Americans feel more comfortable about the onslaught of immigrants coming to the USA?

"liberty and justice for all" seems to be a figure of speech and a goal to shoot for. So this kid refusing to say it could just as easily be thought of as refusing to believe in it. Did he tell the teacher that he was standing up for gay rights?

[king catfish]

When my sister joined the Army, in the process of security clearance, our neighbors were interviewed, some high school teachers, even some people we simply went to church with. I didn't understand why...but it did happen, and I can remember most of them coming to the house wanting to know why people were coming around asking questions about her. (she was a linguist. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that clearance for certain other things would be an even more invasive check). This was...mmm, about 14/15 years ago.

Linguist? Sure, that makes sense. I was infantry, and my secret clearance was for weapons systems (I told you it was mundane). I guess it doesn't matter what's in a grunt's background, right? :D

[Careyp74]

There should be some requirement for students to be respectful of their teachers, even if they are wrong. I'm not saying that they shouldn't challenge anything, ever. But to say it's just fine and dandy for him to say "jump off a bridge" is borderline lunacy. I'm sorry to see so many fall into it. It's disrespectful, at the very least. Even if the teacher was disrespectful first (which is also wrong, and should be punished). Two wrongs don't make a right, I get sick of having to say that around these forums. Especially a so called critical thinking and skeptical forum.

The boy is 10 years old. The teacher is much older. Two wrongs do not make a right, but how can you hold a child to a standard the teacher can't even follow? With all due respect, that is some critical thinking you are showing there, buddy.

[Sabrina]

I agree with most of what you say, Sabrina, but I don't understand why you think he should have shown respect to this authority figure once they overstepped their authority.

Perhaps respect was a poor choice of words; politeness might be a better one. Yes, he called her "ma'am", but tacking on "go jump off a bridge" isn't the politest way to respond.

[Careyp74]

Perhaps respect was a poor choice of words; politeness might be a better one. Yes, he called her "ma'am", but tacking on "go jump off a bridge" isn't the politest way to respond.

dem kids say the darnedest things

[Aepervius]

Do other countries force their young to proclaim loyalty to their motherland?

Wasn't this just supposed to be a way to make Americans feel more comfortable about the onslaught of immigrants coming to the USA?

"liberty and justice for all" seems to be a figure of speech and a goal to shoot for. So this kid refusing to say it could just as easily be thought of as refusing to believe in it. Did he tell the teacher that he was standing up for gay rights?

There are only two counry which I know which do/did that on a quasi daily basis (the other one one being nazi germany, not that I want to godwin my post or something). Many other country do indeed have pledge at various point in life , but not on a daily basis.

That said, I can stand easily corrected by somebody with a better knowledge of another country requiring daily pledge.

[Tricky]

Derail sent to AAH. Please stay on topic.

[drkitten]

There should be some requirement for students to be respectful of their teachers, even if they are wrong.

No.

No one deserves respect because of who they are. Not a teacher, not a cop, not a priest, not the President of the United States.

But to say it's just fine and dandy for him to say "jump off a bridge" is borderline lunacy. I'm sorry to see so many fall into it.

To say that a student should be respectful of their teachers when they are in the middle of committing a criminal act is borderline lunacy.

See, I can make unfounded insults just like you can. But at least I know that the insult is gratuitous and entirely unsupported.

It's disrespectful, at the very least.

Well, at least I can agree there. Treating someone disrespectfully is disrespectful.

The question is whether or not there is a single person in existence whose mere presence is so exalted that one can never, ever, justify disrepecting them.

Because, frankly, treating someone whom you disrespect respectfully is a lie. At best it's hypocritical. It's certainly an unjustifiable demand.

[Careyp74]

from Sledge, who was half on topic and half off (this part was on topic)
As a Brit, I'm amazed that anyone in the "land of the free" would think it's appropriate to insist a child pledge allegiance to anything. Sounds more like brainwashing than anything else.

This whole idea of land of the free goes out the window when someone doesn't fall in line with the norm.

Don't like Jesus? Don't worship the flag? Get your butt out of MY country. We (usually not whoever is speaking this) fight for your right to be free, and you throw it in the face of those that fought for it.

[Sledge]

Wasn't sure whether to repost that, so thank you for saving me from deciding. :D

Looking through the comments on the article is disturbing when you see people insisting they're all for freedom whilst in the same breath criticising the kid for exercising one of his freedoms. It's the sort of thing that can make one think "Facism is wrong, but some people really push the idea that everyone should be allowed to have their say."

[Brainster]

He strikes me as the usual dumb punk who can't distinguish between the country and the government. I suspect he'd be getting a lot fewer hosannas around here if he was from Massachusetts and said he didn't believe in gay marriage.

[Bill Thompson]

He strikes me as the usual dumb punk who can't distinguish between the country and the government. I suspect he'd be getting a lot fewer hosannas around here if he was from Massachusetts and said he didn't believe in gay marriage.

Dstinguish between the country and the government. Isn't this country for the people and by the people?

Since it IS legal (gay marrage) in some states, his protest is a little weak.

[JoeTheJuggler]

There should be some requirement for students to be respectful of their teachers, even if they are wrong.

I disagree. Also, for many people "respect" is not much different than "obey".

At any rate, in this particular story, even if there's a problem with the way the kid acted towards his teacher, that problem is vastly eclipsed by the problem of a teacher trying to compel a kid against his will to stand and recite the Pledge of Allegiance.


As you say, two wrongs don't make a right. And let's not worry over a molehill when there's a mountain to be dealt with. (Or perhaps more biblically, let's not worry about a mote in someone's eye when there is a plank in someone else's.)

[Brainster]

Dstinguish between the country and the government. Isn't this country for the people and by the people?

The country is everything--the lakes, the mountains, the plains, the Grand Canyon, the people, the wildlife, you name it. The government is just the people who administer the functions we turn to government for: Defense, laws, roads and bridges, etc. Even the Republic for which is stands is not just the government; it's also the Constitution, the history of free speech and thought, etc. I respect that part of that is the right not to salute the flag. But that particular action is the product of very childish thinking; appropriate for a 10-year-old but not for the folks on this forum applauding him.

[drkitten]

He strikes me as the usual dumb punk who can't distinguish between the country and the government.

Really? It's not "the people" that are keeping gay marriage from being recognized. It's the government.

I suspect he'd be getting a lot fewer hosannas around here if he was from Massachusetts and said he didn't believe in gay marriage.

I'm sure it comforts you to suspect it. As far as I can tell, most of the "hosannas" he's been getting are from people who are applauding him to standing up to a blatantly out-of-line and illegal act by the teacher.

[Bill Thompson]

The country is everything--the lakes, the mountains, the plains, the Grand Canyon, the people, the wildlife, you name it. The government is just the people who administer the functions we turn to government for: Defense, laws, roads and bridges, etc. Even the Republic for which is stands is not just the government; it's also the Constitution, the history of free speech and thought, etc. I respect that part of that is the right not to salute the flag. But that particular action is the product of very childish thinking; appropriate for a 10-year-old but not for the folks on this forum applauding him.

I don't think so. The Country is a man-made concept and boarders between countries are imaginary. The lakes, the mountains, the plains, the Grand Canyon, the people, the wildlife, you name it... would all be here if the country was not.

You say "even the Republic for which is stands is not just the government". I disagree with this too. Our form of government is called a "Representative Republic". But you say the government is part of the Republic? And the Republic is the Country?

So the kid is pledging the allegience to the country and that is the land and the mountains and lakes and all? Gosh, why would anyone pledge allegience to that? The land? Give me a break!!

[kuroyume0161]

The country is everything--the lakes, the mountains, the plains, the Grand Canyon, the people, the wildlife, you name it. The government is just the people who administer the functions we turn to government for: Defense, laws, roads and bridges, etc. Even the Republic for which is stands is not just the government; it's also the Constitution, the history of free speech and thought, etc. I respect that part of that is the right not to salute the flag. But that particular action is the product of very childish thinking; appropriate for a 10-year-old but not for the folks on this forum applauding him.

Very appropriate as I see it.

"When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness."

I forget who wrote that. Must have been some radical communists who hated their country/republic.

[fuelair]

Fuelair, that still made no sense to go that far back. Think about it : who will you really vet out with that ? Unpatriotic people ? People most likely to be spy ? Insane people ? All of the aforementioned group would highly probably correlate to far higher suspicious activity *later* in adult life.

That is about the same as the threat of employer checking out your middle school repport to see if you were naughty. Even when I worked under strict NDA for the military they did not go that far (or I would not have worked for them).

Just to reiterate and /or clarify: I know only the part of the background check that got back to my parents through phone calls - that is the only part I can verify (because I doubt seriously that those who called were making it up). In my case, also, although I assume they did interview college teachers, I had no way of knowing that because none of them lived where my parents and high school teachers did. I do know the farthest back person they talked to (who called my parents) was one of my eigth grade teachers (again, at that time our system was 1-6 elementary school, 7-12 high school, no middle school and no thought of same).

Also, I hope (though there is evidence otherwise) everyone noticed that I also referenced "assuming the lad goes into high school continuing this.")

While I am thinking about this (not a topic I really concern myself with much most of the time), from a recent incident (a teacher of several years across the hall from me) I know there are teachers and likely some admins who are not aware that the kids neither have to stand, nor do they have to say the pledge - and even the one's (ROTC) saying it over the PA often misspeak it ("I pledge of allegiance...." is my favorite - about once a week or so).

[fuelair]

Fuelair, that still made no sense to go that far back. Think about it : who will you really vet out with that ? Unpatriotic people ? People most likely to be spy ? Insane people ? All of the aforementioned group would highly probably correlate to far higher suspicious activity *later* in adult life.

That is about the same as the threat of employer checking out your middle school repport to see if you were naughty. Even when I worked under strict NDA for the military they did not go that far (or I would not have worked for them).

I am curious (really) here - and not at all trying to be argumentative! First, did they tell you what they were going to look for and how far back ? I ask because I was at most told they would do some kind of background check - I took little interest because my desire to do the stuff they were speaking of was not high on my list of things to do - and it made no sense anyway because I was being trained as a path lab tech, not to work with anti-personnel bacteria/chemicals. Once I got the Black Badge (TM) and got to carry deadly stuff around and clean down secure rooms for tests and such I was now doing that - but I was still slated to head off for Vietnam within 6 months. And, I did.

To the best I remember of what my parents remembered and passed on to me
no major part of it asked about misbehavior in any way I had misbehaved. And I assumed it wouldn't have.

Oh, I have no idea why Miss W...s (we called her Old Yeller Eyes - she wore glasses with yellow lenses) would have called my folks except out of real curiousity - and she's the 8th grade teacher I mentioned.

[Dave Rogers]

An intelligent teacher would respond by setting him a three-page essay as homework on his reasons for declining to recite the pledge and the legal justification for his doing so. If he does it, he's had a learning experience in civics, he can get some credit for a good piece of work, he's demonstrated that he's genuine in his convictions, and he'll have probably gained a good deal of self-esteem in the process. And if anybody else wants to jump one the bandwagon, they have to do the assignment as well. Saying "I know your grandparents and they'd want you to do this" is out of place and stupid.

As for saying "Go jump in a lake" to a teacher, sure, it's not a good thing to encourage. Neither is dropping repeated F-bombs in a loud voice in the middle of the playground, as my son did last week. However, context is everything. My son had just collided with another kid at high speed while playing dodgeball, landed hard on his arm and thought he'd broken it (although in fact he hadn't, and he was OK except for cuts and grazes). This was felt to be enough of an extenuating circumstance for someone who wouldn't normally behave that way. If a teacher's been illegally harrassing a good student for a week, I think a sensible head teacher would rather let things drop quietly than make a big deal over "Go jump in a lake".

Dave

[Dancing David]

Sorry, but having spent four years at a high school where only some 60% of the students ever actually graduate, and kids regularly got suspended for telling teachers to go f' themselves over things like telling the kid not to bring their cell phone to class, I know where encouraging this particular flavor of "standing up for one's opinion" tends to lead.

That is a fallacy right there, you have yet to demonstrate a link between the two (schools have to deal with the kids as they are), furthermore the student WAS NOT disrupting class.

That is what modern discipline is about, it is not about making robots, it is about providing the enviroment of instruction.

If the sub did as she is alleged, then she disrupted the class.

[Dancing David]

Indeed? Was she running around screaming? Throwing things? Swearing? Calling the kid a terrorist or a traitor? I missed that part of the article.
She threatened the student (with family contact) over a non-discipline issue. The student was not disrupting class, she was.

The sub had no bussiness forcing the kid to recite the pledge, that is not part of the educational curriculum or 'social' curriculum. It is also against the law of the land.

The teachers job is to teach, not to force kids to say the pledge.

the sub was wrong and out of control. She should have been doing what the sub plans left for her told her to do, somehow I doubt that browbeating over the pledge the child was in the lesson plans.

[Dancing David]

True - I assumed that standing and reciting the pledge daily was standard school policy and not just this one sub's idea. But, I *think* the reporter for either the Arkansas Times or CNN would have mentioned this if this was the case. Also, The kid clearly states he decided over the weekend to not stand and recite the pledge that coming Monday. Whether he knew his usual teacher would be there or not is up to the conspiracy nuts.

My take is the kid decided to take a stand and cause conflict. The sub then helped tremendously by overreacting.

It is a classroom tradition, it is usually not part of district policy. It in fact is rarely part of 'building' policy. It is often just a social convention for starting the day. Building policy in both my schools is to also recite a 'student' pledge:

"I am a ------------- student, I will believe in myself and my ability to do my best at all times.

I will act in such a way that I will be proud of myself and others will be proud of me too.

I will not waste this day because this day will never come again."

(This is not the pledge at either of my schools)

they often reference following the rules and being nice to others.

Now please note that none of the district or builiding rules is "Recite the pledge or student pledge"

[madurobob]

As for saying "Go jump in a lake" to a teacher, sure, it's not a good thing to encourage. Neither is dropping repeated F-bombs in a loud voice in the middle of the playground, as my son did last week...

Well, at least he wasn't yelling "Limone" (http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2007/jul/28/weekend.jonronson)

I like the idea of assigning a paper. However, it is still punitive. The boy was within his rights to sit silently rather than stand and pledge, and he wasn't being disruptive (as far as I can tell). So, I don't think its right to punish that behavior. But, perhaps "suggest" a three page paper for extra credit?

[Dancing David]

This one is identified as a retiree who returned to substitute for the week. That's what I remember the bulk of my subs in middle school & high school being also. So, they managed at some point and made a career of it... but retired for a reason.

I cringe to remember how we treated them in High School. Like a buffalo herd treats its elderly, I suppose: when you get a bit too slow you become food for the wolves.

Lots of people sub for different reasons.

Well Middle School is the worst, high school is not that bad. I suppose it varies from district to district, my school district has a rather strong arm when it comes to disrupting class. A sub merely has to call the office if the class is getting really rude and then the principal or assistant will come remind them of the consequences.

Elementary schools take a special breed (as do all three) you have to be directive, cheerful and firm. Your discipline has to be appropriate to the child's age and development.

I tend to use 'resets' (From the Nurtured Heart) approach, you have the kid sit there "sit straight, look at your hands, think about how you are expected to behave in school" then when you see them relax and follow the directions you welcome them back to class. When they get really disruptive in the lab I sit them out for a minute or if they talk back to me when I sit them out they get three minutes. But the main goal in my district is to use social modeling and reinforcement by praising the kids who are meeting expectations. (It is strange but it seems to work.)

Very rarely do I ever have to threaten them with the office and the call home.

Now morning duty and afternoon duty are different, there I rarely do more than ask them to not run, but hitting is right out. In the am I can park them on the wall to chill them out, in the pm , not so much (because they are going home), but always the consequences threatened are the same "Calling your parents" (which some kids don't care, because their parents already yell at them all the time or are absent) or "talking to the assistant/principal".

The main thing is really to have that positive relationship with the kids, and then when you make a request they seem more likely to comply.

[madurobob]

But the main goal in my district is to use social modeling and reinforcement by praising the kids who are meeting expectations. (It is strange but it seems to work.)

Actually, if I were a teacher that's exactly what I would do. Elementary school-aged kids are eager to conform, be accepted as part of the group, and receive praise in front of the group.

But, we're bumping into problems with this in my house. My 10 year-old is among the top in his 4th grade class intellectually. He's in the gifted programs, he's smart, motivated, artistic, a perfectionist... and talks continuously. That's a problem. When the teacher is leading discussions she expects hands to be raised and she'll call on kids. My kid simply calls out, almost involuntarily.

I've been working with him on this. When he doesn't get to say what he wants to say it looks like it causes him physical pain, like his head will explode. Kinda surprising given I am one of the least talkative people I know. But, he's working on it. His big complaint now is that his teacher doesn't call on him when he raises his hand, and she praises the other kids more than she does him.

I remind him that if he wants praise he needs to do what his teacher asks - raise your hand, don't just call out, and have something useful to say when she calls on you. But, I also have to consider that teachers can become biased; they expect certain behaviors from certain kids and can forget that kids grow and change quite a bit at that age. Its hard to explain to a 10 year-old desperate for praise that perhaps his teacher just hasn't yet noticed that he's trying to change. I'm now secretly hoping for a sub to take over for a few days to see how, if at all, things change.

[I Ratant]

She threatened the student (with family contact) over a non-discipline issue. The student was not disrupting class, she was.

The sub had no bussiness forcing the kid to recite the pledge, that is not part of the educational curriculum or 'social' curriculum. It is also against the law of the land.

The teachers job is to teach, not to force kids to say the pledge.

the sub was wrong and out of control. She should have been doing what the sub plans left for her told her to do, somehow I doubt that browbeating over the pledge the child was in the lesson plans.
.
I talked to a guy on Compuserve years back who said as a teacher, he would prohibit children from using the red, white and blue crayons for their artwork, because those "were the colors of the FLAG!".
I can't recall any substitute teachers, competent or otherwise in regular class work, but did encounter an overenthusiastic pastor's assistant who was overly authoritative. I complained about him to the pastor.

[Dancing David]

I wish I could remember what us bad kids actually said during the pledge. Lots of homophones. I still remember how we butchered the Lord's Prayer.

(God is still pissed about it, too.)

The current version is

I pledge alliegance to the flag
Michael Jackson is a f*g
He used to play with little toys
Now he plays with little boys

[Dancing David]

Actually, if I were a teacher that's exactly what I would do. Elementary school-aged kids are eager to conform, be accepted as part of the group, and receive praise in front of the group.

But, we're bumping into problems with this in my house. My 10 year-old is among the top in his 4th grade class intellectually. He's in the gifted programs, he's smart, motivated, artistic, a perfectionist... and talks continuously. That's a problem. When the teacher is leading discussions she expects hands to be raised and she'll call on kids. My kid simply calls out, almost involuntarily.

I've been working with him on this. When he doesn't get to say what he wants to say it looks like it causes him physical pain, like his head will explode. Kinda surprising given I am one of the least talkative people I know. But, he's working on it. His big complaint now is that his teacher doesn't call on him when he raises his hand, and she praises the other kids more than she does him.

I remind him that if he wants praise he needs to do what his teacher asks - raise your hand, don't just call out, and have something useful to say when she calls on you. But, I also have to consider that teachers can become biased; they expect certain behaviors from certain kids and can forget that kids grow and change quite a bit at that age. Its hard to explain to a 10 year-old desperate for praise that perhaps his teacher just hasn't yet noticed that he's trying to change. I'm now secretly hoping for a sub to take over for a few days to see how, if at all, things change.

Ah, the joys of gifted classrooms, the teachers usually just ignore the outbursts and focus on the kids who are doing what, then most of them will use some form of reset or timeout if they keep calling out.

[Brainster]

I don't think so. The Country is a man-made concept and boarders between countries are imaginary. The lakes, the mountains, the plains, the Grand Canyon, the people, the wildlife, you name it... would all be here if the country was not.

You say "even the Republic for which is stands is not just the government". I disagree with this too. Our form of government is called a "Representative Republic". But you say the government is part of the Republic? And the Republic is the Country?

So the kid is pledging the allegience to the country and that is the land and the mountains and lakes and all? Gosh, why would anyone pledge allegience to that? The land? Give me a break!!

It's not an easy concept, I accept that. Should Republicans refuse to salute the flag when the Democrats are in power? You won't find many many takers for that argument among conservatives.

[genesplicer]

I don't say the pledge, either. I find that most of my students stand there quietly, only a few actually recite it. I would be more inclined to say it if we pledged allegiance to the Constitution. That's what makes our country what it is, not some colored cloth symbol.

Plus, the whole "under god" thing...

[genesplicer]

It is a classroom tradition, it is usually not part of district policy. It in fact is rarely part of 'building' policy. It is often just a social convention for starting the day. Building policy in both my schools is to also recite a 'student' pledge:



California education code requires some sort of "Daily Patriotic Exercise". It does not specify what needs to be done, but the Pledge is a simple expedient that fits the bill without taking a lot of time or effort...

One more box checked, one more bit of "Educational Progress".

[Nosi]

Well, this kid is thinking. That is praise worthy. Too many adults and kids have their heads up their :rule10. Besides he did, I think, state why he did not pledge.

[Dancing David]

California education code requires some sort of "Daily Patriotic Exercise". It does not specify what needs to be done, but the Pledge is a simple expedient that fits the bill without taking a lot of time or effort...

One more box checked, one more bit of "Educational Progress".


So much for the 'liberal' California myth!

Daily Patriotic Exercise, I see a gym teacher with the flag and sweating students...

[Gord_in_Toronto]

too many "subs"?

You can't have too many subs. I particularly like the hot spice meat ball with cheese and hot peppers myself. :cool:

[godofpie]

Who wants to write a pledge for your very own state? It must be true cuz I red it on the innertoobs.
http://wikiality.wikia.com/The_Pledge_of_Allegiance/New_Pledges#North_Carolina_Pledge

[thaiboxerken]

You don't get a victory dance until the teacher is prosecuted!

Why do you say this?

[Careyp74]

So much for the 'liberal' California myth!

Daily Patriotic Exercise, I see a gym teacher with the flag and sweating students...

In Berkeley their patriotic exercise is marching in protest.

[Kestrel]

California education code requires some sort of "Daily Patriotic Exercise". It does not specify what needs to be done, but the Pledge is a simple expedient that fits the bill without taking a lot of time or effort.

Singing an anthem, saluting a flag and pledges of loyalty are simply rituals of obedience. Perhaps we should find a way to exercise our patriotism that is different from what is done in totalitarian states.

[Careyp74]

When I was a kid, I might have said "Go fly a kite".

Sadist.

[godofpie]

Jon Stewart hires pro wrestler (http://airamerica.com/entertainment/11-20-2009/stewart-hires-pro-wrestler-protect-10-year-old/) to protect the kid.

[Sledge]

I wish that video was watchable in the UK. :(

[Nosi]

This little kid is protesting, using free speech, and thinking about constitutional matters. That is very Patriotic.

[metzomagic]

madurobob FTW! That Limone (http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2007/jul/28/weekend.jonronson) anecdote is a classic ;-) :deadp

[madurobob]

madurobob FTW! That Limone (http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2007/jul/28/weekend.jonronson) anecdote is a classic ;-) :deadp

I can't believe the autocensor even lets us post it.

Limone! Limone! Limone!

[Nosi]

That evil 7-Up of a father!

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

More power to him! :)

Since I became an atheist, if I do say the pledge, I omit the part 'under god'.

As far as I'm concerned, making it compulsory stands for everything that this nation isn't supposed to be about. Freedom of speech and popular dissent must necessilary extend even to pledges and patriotism.


When I was in elementary school, there was an Algerian-American Muslim girl who secretly refused to say "under God". She would recite the pledge but omit those words or refuse to say the entire thing but would still stand at attention with her hand over her heart. I think a few of the other Muslims did the same thing.

She wasn't even a very devout Muslim. She refused to eat pork in the school cafeteria, too, but she otherwise wasn't very religious. She didn't wear the clothing and was quite Americanized.

Muslims, atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, Hindus and others should rise up and make their voices heard on this issue. Those words are an ostracizing insult to them and it should be amended for that reason alone.

I guess there's an argument to be made that Muslims also worship the same God that Christians do...but imagine the reverse situation, that a Christian moves to a Muslim nation and his/her children are forced in a government run institution to swear their allegiance to Allah every day.

Of course, Christians technically do believe in Allah- but they sure as hell would know that the words of that pledge do not mean them or their God.

Especially if this Muslim nation was supposed to be a secular nation with a secular government that believed in freedom of religion and equality.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

"With all due respect ma'am, go jump off a bridge."??

Little prick needs at least one day's detention. You don't want to recite the pledge that's fine, but you can't tell your teacher to kill herself. If he's allowed to simply get away with that without any consequence at all, how is the teacher supposed to maintain control of the educational setting in the classroom from that point on?

I know what you mean. Though I do believe the words "under God" should be taken out and that saying the pledge should be a choice, it sounds like the kid did behave rudely. Maybe he was pushed into it, maybe the teacher was equally out of control- but that's just rude.

A child mouthing off to an adult is about the most amazingly obnoxious sight on Earth. Amazingly obnoxious.

And in front of all the other kids while class is going on...yeah, that deserves punishment of some sort.

Edit: I had the Pledge of Allegiance stop around 4th grade. I honestly don't remember if it was said in 5th grade but my guess is no, it probably wasn't, since I don't remember it being there. In middle school, there was none of it. None. Maybe at the start of 6th grade...maybe.

Why does it suddenly stop? Out of nowhere? What's the explanation?

Btw, the words "under God" are the only objection I have to it. The flag, my country, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all, I'm totally for.

Edit 2: How ironic is it that someone got punished for refusing to conform and participate in a speech promoting liberty, justice and American values?! That's like being thrown out of a Yankees game for loving New York.

[Sledge]

I'll ask again: how is it rude to respond to someone who's been illegally harassing you for four days? The only person in the wrong here is the teacher. The student acted with more restraint that I would reasonably expect from anyone. What is the source of this bizarre idea that a child must always respect a teacher even when the teacher is not only wrong but breaking the law?

[imjohn]

OK.

Here's what I don't get.... Why aren't any of you skeptical that a 10-year-old would refuse to recite the pledge because of gay rights? I have two kids one 13, one 11. Neither of them would refuse to recite the pledge over gay rights. Maybe the kid is precocious or maybe it's a set-up by his parents. Either way the kid was standing up for his rights, but I am amazed that no one but me is skeptical of that aspect of the story.

[Dragon]

I wish that video was watchable in the UK. :(
Try here - http://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart/4od#3010207

- from about 7:45 :)

[madurobob]

OK.

Here's what I don't get.... Why aren't any of you skeptical that a 10-year-old would refuse to recite the pledge because of gay rights? I have two kids one 13, one 11. Neither of them would refuse to recite the pledge over gay rights. Maybe the kid is precocious or maybe it's a set-up by his parents. Either way the kid was standing up for his rights, but I am amazed that no one but me is skeptical of that aspect of the story.

You don' think a 10 year old who has been attending gay rights rallies with his parents, who has already skipped a grade, and who professes a desire to become a lawyer would be capable of doing such a thing?

[Sledge]

Try here - http://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart/4od#3010207

- from about 7:45 :)

Utterly, utterly marvellous. My admiration for that child knows no bounds. Thank you, sir.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

He seems like a little gaywad to me.

[imjohn]

You don' think a 10 year old who has been attending gay rights rallies with his parents, who has already skipped a grade, and who professes a desire to become a lawyer would be capable of doing such a thing?

Obviously he is capable of doing such a thing. Would he do such a thing on his own without one or both parents coaching him?

[PingOfPong]

Why do these morons try to make the pledge compulsory? I weep for how stupid teachers are if they can't see the irony of compelling children to say a pledge with "liberty" in it. So here we go again, maybe taking it to federal court to prove once again that you can't force children to pledge. It's a shame because the pledge is such a nice sentiment. These sorts of things just make it feel weird.

[madurobob]

Obviously he is capable of doing such a thing. Would he do such a thing on his own without one or both parents coaching him?

I don't see why not.

I have a 10 yr old and a 17 yr old. If I told either of them at age ten to go to school and refuse to do something everyone else did and that they considered harmless... they would refuse. There is nothing I could do or say to get them to behave like this 10 year old has if they didn't honestly believe in it.

How about your ten year old? Could you make him do this if he didn't care about the issue?

The point is that (duh!) kids learn from their parents and they tend to behave in ways they believe will make their parents proud. How that can possibly be construed to lessen the meaning of what this kid is doing is beyond me.

[Ladewig]

Yup, can't force people to say the pledge or stand for it.

.
Or do anything.

But that photo is not a photo showing activity during the Pledge of Allegiance, it shows those people during the playing of "Hail to the Chief."

[FSMLovesYou]

An intelligent teacher would respond by setting him a three-page essay as homework on his reasons for declining to recite the pledge and the legal justification for his doing so. If he does it, he's had a learning experience in civics, he can get some credit for a good piece of work, he's demonstrated that he's genuine in his convictions, and he'll have probably gained a good deal of self-esteem in the process.
Dave

Its so refreshing to hear a voice of reason :) The whole thing was blown out of proportion. The teacher could very easily have turned the situation around by asking the boy to write an essay. That would be a nice way to go about educating or at least encouraging some kind of dialogue instead of responding "shut up boy" or "go to the principle's office".

[drkitten]

Its so refreshing to hear a voice of reason :) The whole thing was blown out of proportion.

... by the teacher.

There are certainly some times when there are faults on both sides and both sides are acting inappropriately, and the "reasonable" thing to do is to seek a compromise.

There are also some times when one side is completely and unassailably in the right and a compromise would simply punish the person who is correct and willing to stand on his correctness.

This is a clear-cut example of the second sort of time.

The teacher was out of line, inappropriate, unprofessional, and acting in violation of the law. It doesn't get much more hard-core wrong than that.

[Whiplash]

And idealism wins out again.

[Sledge]

What?

[drkitten]

What?

Evidently Whiplash considers it to be (negatively) "idealistic" if your response to someone trying to steal $100 from you is to have him arrested for breaking the law instead of trying to compromise by giving him $50.

[Sledge]

What an odd attitude to have. Possibly not as odd as the weirdos you see praising freedom whilst damning this child for exercising his legal freedom, but still pretty weird.

[Dancing David]

Well a sub teacher assigning a three page essay because a student refused to say the pledge is questionable as well. :)

Was it part of the lesson plan, how does it fit in the curriculm?

[Morrigan]

Why do people even recite this pledge in classrooms at all? It really creeps the hell out of me. Do countries other than the USA have this absurd tradition?

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Why do people even recite this pledge in classrooms at all? It really creeps the hell out of me. Do countries other than the USA have this absurd tradition?

Godwin. :duck:

[Sledge]

Two things:
1) Has there been any update on this story? Did the teacher apologise, did Mick Foley have to beat anyone up, etc?

2) Really, why should a teacher (or anyone) be automatically deserving of respect, even when breaking the law?

[Checkmite]

Evidently, nothing. Surprisingly, the teacher-criminal didn't get arrested for "breaking the law" either.

Non-issue.

[Sledge]

Why do you have "breaking the law" in inverted commas?

[quarky]

Why do people even recite this pledge in classrooms at all? It really creeps the hell out of me. Do countries other than the USA have this absurd tradition?

North Korea has something similar.

[quixotecoyote]

North Korea has something similar.

Who know who else did something similar? ..... HITLER!

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f253/quixotecoyote/smilies/hitler_emoticon.gif

[Accidental Martyr]

Pledge of Allegiance dispute results in Md. teacher having to apologize

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/23/AR2010022303889.html

[drkitten]

Glad to see the school district saw reason.


I agree with the student's mother. An apology is definitely in order. From the teacher..

[Piscivore]

Win.

[readme.txt]

Touching article, imo