Nazi iconography, aesthetics, design and visual power

[big-E]

A thought struck me as I was reading another thread, which had an image of a Nazi rally in all its frightening glory...

I venture to suggest that one of the reasons for the appeal of the Nazis was (and with some people, still is) the visual spectacle, powerful iconography etc. - the striking banners - red, white and black swastikas - the impressive uniforms, use of colour/repetition and so on. Certainly it reinforces the concept of the movement being a powerful one.

The question was why and how did they get so good at it? It seems peculiar to me that a movement born in the 20s and 30s was so design-savvy (perhaps because we consider is such a modern skill).

Was there a Nazi design office that controlled the public image? Was it down to any particular individual?

Googling hasn't lead me to any names or specific groups - anyone know?

*Obligatory note - I have no love at all for the Nazis. I concede they (or some of them) had a powerful grasp on how to make themselves look good (in certain circumstances), but it doesn't mean I support them in any way whatsoever.

[Praktik]

Interesting question.

I don't have anything concrete to add but it might be worthwhile to consider the wider context from which they arose.

What were the socialists, communists, catholic parties, and other parties on the right-wing doing in terms of their iconography?

Perhaps part of the reason the Nazi esthetic developed as it did was due to competitive pressure from nearly-as-effective rivals...

[the_smasher]

I know The Hugo Boss company made uniforms during the war. This is from the HB wikipedia page:

The all-black uniform of the Nazi Schutzstaffel (the paramilitary force from 1925 until 1945) was designed by SS-Oberführer Prof. Dr. Karl Diebitsch and graphic designer Walter Heck.[2] From 1933, the Hugo Boss company was one of the firms that produced these black uniforms along with the brown SA shirts and the black-and-brown uniforms of the Hitler Youth.[3][4]

There are a couple of names in there you could try researching.

[Piscivore]

A thought struck me as I was reading another thread, which had an image of a Nazi rally in all its frightening glory...

I venture to suggest that one of the reasons for the appeal of the Nazis was (and with some people, still is) the visual spectacle, powerful iconography etc. - the striking banners - red, white and black swastikas - the impressive uniforms, use of colour/repetition and so on. Certainly it reinforces the concept of the movement being a powerful one.
Military uniforms became powerful iconography in the Napoleonic wars.

[rustypouch]

As terrible as they were, the Nazis had style.

Looking at colour photos of the Numermburg is very impressive. It made them seem like an impossing force that people wanted to be a part of.

[psychictv]

It seems peculiar to me that a movement born in the 20s and 30s was so design-savvy (perhaps because we consider is such a modern skill).

Are you joking? Ever hear of the Weimar Republic? Bauhaus? Germany in the 20s was one of the most culturally fertile and creative periods in art history.

[blutoski]

A thought struck me as I was reading another thread, which had an image of a Nazi rally in all its frightening glory...

I venture to suggest that one of the reasons for the appeal of the Nazis was (and with some people, still is) the visual spectacle, powerful iconography etc. - the striking banners - red, white and black swastikas - the impressive uniforms, use of colour/repetition and so on. Certainly it reinforces the concept of the movement being a powerful one.

The question was why and how did they get so good at it? It seems peculiar to me that a movement born in the 20s and 30s was so design-savvy (perhaps because we consider is such a modern skill).

Was there a Nazi design office that controlled the public image? Was it down to any particular individual?

Googling hasn't lead me to any names or specific groups - anyone know?

*Obligatory note - I have no love at all for the Nazis. I concede they (or some of them) had a powerful grasp on how to make themselves look good (in certain circumstances), but it doesn't mean I support them in any way whatsoever.

There are actually many books written on the process they underwent to construct and maintain an image, and also why the talent was available.

Prior to WWI, Germany was arguably the most technologically advanced and educated nation. Art followed technology. After the war, Germany and Austria remained a destination for aspiring artists.

(The fact that Hitler had been an aspiring artist in Vienna actually led to worse outcomes - he frequently micromanaged works created by the Reich's real talent)

The Reich was able to identify and leverage a lot of this talent. They were also an important benefactor for art that used new technologies such as film. Leni Riefenstahl's [Triumph of the Will (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triumph_of_the_Will)] is considered precedent-setting work for 20th century propaganda.

[Senex]

It is an excellent question. Swastikas always give me pause when I see one.

Nazi symbols are creepy. Personally, when I see a nazi symbol I think that my familiy members gave up a great deal so we aren't speaking german or wearing swastikas.

I don't behave in a pavlovian behavior as a rule. However, Nazi stuff makes me see red when worn as an on-going political statement. You are an ass or just plain evil if you identify with Nazis. I'm the nicest guy you will meet at the bus station -- unless you have a swastik tatoo.

This is the opposite of what you were looking for. Clearly, if you are living in poverty you can understand people grabbing on what might make their life better. I'm not judging people 55 years ago. We have to let that go. I'm judging asses who embrace nazi symbols today. These people suck.

[blutoski]

Relevant humour video: [Are we the baddies? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SO5WoLnOOlU)]

[Sunray Breaker]

Relevant humour video: [Are we the baddies?]
One of the best shows ever...

If you want to know more about how the Nazi's "Sold their image" to the people...
Joseph Goebbels would be a good place to start at...

According to my Wikivestigating...
One of his first acts was the burning of books rejected by the Nazis. He exerted totalitarian control over the media, arts, and information in Germany. In that position, he perfected an understanding of the "Big Lie" technique of propaganda, which is based on the principle that a lie, if audacious enough and repeated enough times, will be believed by the masses.

[sackett]

Not everything the nazis did was stylish. I'm thinking of all those tacky daggers and swords. I've examined many of them, and without exception they're cheap, dinky, unimpressive costume jewelry, the sort of thing adolescents would choose to doll themselves up.

Come to think of it, fascism as a whole is essentially a teenager's ideology.

[dudalb]

Interesting question.

I don't have anything concrete to add but it might be worthwhile to consider the wider context from which they arose.

What were the socialists, communists, catholic parties, and other parties on the right-wing doing in terms of their iconography?

Perhaps part of the reason the Nazi esthetic developed as it did was due to competitive pressure from nearly-as-effective rivals...


Stalinist Russian icongraphy in basic concepts were not much different then what the Nazis were doing, and it's hard to tell who was stealing from who.

[dudalb]

Are you joking? Ever hear of the Weimar Republic? Bauhaus? Germany in the 20s was one of the most culturally fertile and creative periods in art history.

Which came to a crashing halt in 1933.
Much to the benefit of many other countries, the US and The UK in particular.

[Piscivore]

Not everything the nazis did was stylish. I'm thinking of all those tacky daggers and swords. I've examined many of them, and without exception they're cheap, dinky, unimpressive costume jewelry, the sort of thing adolescents would choose to doll themselves up.

Come to think of it, fascism as a whole is essentially a teenager's ideology.

Yes indeed. :)

[Kestrel]

Relevant humour video: [Are we the baddies? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SO5WoLnOOlU)]

Brilliant.

[psychictv]

Which came to a crashing halt in 1933.
Much to the benefit of many other countries, the US and The UK in particular.

Of course, but I was commenting on the idea that design is somehow a "modern skill" that wasn't developed yet in the '20s and '30s. That period was arguably the peak of design in the 20th century Since the middle of that century, the overall quality of design in the world has fallen dramatically.

As another point of comparison, take a look at the WPA posters (http://images.google.com/images?q=wpa+posters) created by the U.S. government in the late '30s, early '40s and compare them to anything the government publishes today.

Anyway, the Nazis certainly lived in a period of highly sophisticated design and that overall atmosphere influenced them even though they explicitly denounced and dismantled the Bauhaus itself. In comparison to other modern design, the Nazi's stuff was pretty schlocky. It only looks well designed now from the point of view of the design wasteland that is today.

[geni]

A thought struck me as I was reading another thread, which had an image of a Nazi rally in all its frightening glory...

I venture to suggest that one of the reasons for the appeal of the Nazis was (and with some people, still is) the visual spectacle, powerful iconography etc. - the striking banners - red, white and black swastikas - the impressive uniforms, use of colour/repetition and so on. Certainly it reinforces the concept of the movement being a powerful one.

The question was why and how did they get so good at it? It seems peculiar to me that a movement born in the 20s and 30s was so design-savvy (perhaps because we consider is such a modern skill).

Was there a Nazi design office that controlled the public image? Was it down to any particular individual?

Googling hasn't lead me to any names or specific groups - anyone know?

*Obli


Joseph Goebbels. The full list of what he worked from I don't know but he did base some of his methods on the work of Edward Bernays and his Crystallizing Public Opinion. Bernay's ideas were in turn ultimately derived from a mix of british and american WW1 propaganda techniques.

[A.A. Alfie]

I think one needs to remember that the rallies became far 'grander' only after Hitler's rise to power in 1933. Prior to that they had been relatively small.
The rallies themselves were a celebration of Nazi power -they had already attained power and following, and were now more an exercise in self indulgence and subjugation.

[Matthew Ellard]

The question was why and how did they get so good at it? It seems peculiar to me that a movement born in the 20s and 30s was so design-savvy (perhaps because we consider is such a modern skill).

Was there a Nazi design office that controlled the public image? Was it down to any particular individual?

May I suggest that the Nazi uniforms are so well remembered because of Signal Magazine being published in colour and distributed around the world pre-war. Signal was a bit similar to "Life" magazine but mixed in military subjects. Here is a photo of American Nazis from just before the war. You can see that they love the uniform they saw in glossy magazines.


Pre-war photo of american in Nazi uniforms
http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/buildup-to-world-war-2-21.jpg

A website that talks about Signal Magazine
http://www.signalmagazine.com/signal.htm

( The British intelligence services got their first photo image of a "Tiger" tank in their regular subsription to Signal Magazine! Silly Germans!

[fagin]

I hate Illinois nazis.

[big-E]

Thanks for all the helpful info - will do some more research following up the leads. I suppose I'm trying to find specific named designers - the talent that the Reich managed to identify and get on board - not really expecting Goebbels to have sat down with pen and paper at a design desk, but will see...

I suppose I need to confront my own tendency to assume that design wasn't so 'modern' back then... looking up what their rival organisations were up to, design-wise, could be interesting.

[Childlike Empress]

Joseph Goebbels. The full list of what he worked from I don't know but he did base some of his methods on the work of Edward Bernays and his Crystallizing Public Opinion. Bernay's ideas were in turn ultimately derived from a mix of british and american WW1 propaganda techniques.


Goebbels was the propagandist for the Reich but had nothing to do with developing the "nazi brand". For that - exemplified by the swastika itself - you have to look at Theosophie, Ariosophie, Germanenorden and the Thule Gesellschaft. People like Jörg Lanz von Liebesfeld, Guido von List, Rudolf von Sebottendorf and Dietrich Eckart.

[dudalb]

Joseph Goebbels. The full list of what he worked from I don't know but he did base some of his methods on the work of Edward Bernays and his Crystallizing Public Opinion. Bernay's ideas were in turn ultimately derived from a mix of british and american WW1 propaganda techniques.

Lenin and Trotsky were also students of Bernay. When criticised for using "capitalistic Advertising Methods" Trotsky replied that if the Capitialists came up with a good,effective idea, that Bolsheviks would be fools for not using it against them.

[Kestrel]

I hate Illinois nazis.

I actually ran into some at a suburban Chicago hamfest in the late 70s. They were selling NAZI flags, banners, armbands, posters and other gear out of the back of a Mercedes truck while wearing brownshirt uniforms.

The same guys and the same truck are in this photo (http://www.corbisimages.com:80/Enlargement/Enlargement.aspx?id=BE023174&ext=1) taken in St. Louis.

[Childlike Empress]

Lenin and Trotsky were also students of Bernay. When criticised for using "capitalistic Advertising Methods" Trotsky replied that if the Capitialists came up with a good,effective idea, that Bolsheviks would be fools for not using it against them.


The development of propaganda runs parallel to that of psychology - Edward Bernays was the nephew of Sigmund Freud and deeply influenced by his work, remember. Has nothing to do with economic systems.

[Cactus Wren]

Lenin and Trotsky were also students of Bernay. When criticised for using "capitalistic Advertising Methods" Trotsky replied that if the Capitialists came up with a good,effective idea, that Bolsheviks would be fools for not using it against them.

The title "Bolsheviki" is itself (as Carl Sagan pointed out, in Dragons of Eden I think) a nice bit of marketing: it means "Majority Party", and when the group adopted the name they were decidedly a numerical minority. (The party that did hold the numerical majority helped the effort along by cheerfully accepting the designation "Mensheviki", or "Minority Party".)

[Matthew Ellard]

Thanks for all the helpful info - will do some more research following up the leads. I suppose I'm trying to find specific named designers - the talent that the Reich managed to identify and get on board - not really expecting Goebbels to have sat down with pen and paper at a design desk, but will see...

I suppose I need to confront my own tendency to assume that design wasn't so 'modern' back then... looking up what their rival organisations were up to, design-wise, could be interesting.

May I suggest the following book? It sort of provides the information you are after.

Totalitarian Art ( In the Soviet Union, The Third Reich, Fascist Italy and Peoples Republic of China) by Igor Golomstock, Collins Harvil Publishers,1990

[Childlike Empress]

Totalitarian Art ( In the Soviet Union, The Third Reich, Fascist Italy and Peoples Republic of China) by Igor Golomstock, Collins Harvil Publishers,1990


Totalitarian Art in 4 min:
1YE_j0xIsJA

That's Laibach, who managed to win an art contest in late communist Yugoslawia with original nazi propaganda, and were misunderstood ever since. ;)

[big-E]

I knew this place wouldn't let me down :)

Thanks again people.

[Childlike Empress]

Here is part one of a four part series of documentaries done for the BBC by Adam Curtis in 2002, "Century of the Self". This part is about Sigmund Freud, Edward Bernays and the roots of modern propaganda (58min).

8953172273825999151

[Almo]

The question was why and how did they get so good at it? It seems peculiar to me that a movement born in the 20s and 30s was so design-savvy (perhaps because we consider is such a modern skill).


My wife who is a graphic designer says to look up "The Bauhaus" movement in design. There was no shortage of design knowledge at the time. :)

ETA: Didn't read the whole thread. Just responded out of surprise. :)

[bluesjnr]

I've come into this post late.


Albert Speer. AKA Berthold Blah de blah.

I'm a little pissed tonight and that is my excuse. Yours might be complete ignorance.

Upon reading this thread it seems that this is a requirement.

[gumboot]

A thought struck me as I was reading another thread, which had an image of a Nazi rally in all its frightening glory...

I venture to suggest that one of the reasons for the appeal of the Nazis was (and with some people, still is) the visual spectacle, powerful iconography etc. - the striking banners - red, white and black swastikas - the impressive uniforms, use of colour/repetition and so on. Certainly it reinforces the concept of the movement being a powerful one.

The question was why and how did they get so good at it? It seems peculiar to me that a movement born in the 20s and 30s was so design-savvy (perhaps because we consider is such a modern skill).

Was there a Nazi design office that controlled the public image? Was it down to any particular individual?

Googling hasn't lead me to any names or specific groups - anyone know?

*Obligatory note - I have no love at all for the Nazis. I concede they (or some of them) had a powerful grasp on how to make themselves look good (in certain circumstances), but it doesn't mean I support them in any way whatsoever.


I remember seeing a documentary about Schindler's List which touched on this matter and really stuck with me. As you'd probably expect of a Spielberg film, the costume designer rigidly adhered to the actual patterns and materials used by the German Army. In an interview Ralph Fiennes talked about the almost visceral reaction he had when we put his costume on. The uniform had actually been carefully designed to make the wearer feel powerful and important. I remember him remarking on how disturbing he found it, because the "Nazi character" became an automatic reaction to wearing the clothing rather than something he had to construct.

I think this illustrates the extent of Nazi propaganda. It wasn't about posters or rallies or making films. Their propaganda machine was far more subtle, and far more vast than that. Even the cut of their uniforms was an act of propaganda against their own troops. I'd feel pretty confident saying that no other regime in history has conducted such a wide-sweeping, integrated and carefully constructed propaganda campaign.

[Eddie Dane]

Good question.

As I am involved in branding for several small fashion brands, I have often wondered about the Nazi "brand management".

The origins are apparently traced back to the Italian poet and WWI hero Gabriele D'Annunzio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%27annunzio). He created a private militia that had a precursor to the Nazi style. Making liberal use of pagan symbolism and references to the Roman empire. Which did a good job in the branding department itself, obviously.

http://www.istrianet.org/istria/history/1800-present/dannunzio/images/Mussolini-D%27Annunzio250.jpg
Here's D'annunzio with Mussolini.

D'annunzio heavily influenced Mussolini who in turn influenced the Nazi's.

Personally I think the Nazi branding was so well done that it still holds appeal to many and even overshadows the Nazis horrible ethos and dismal failure.

The style is so successful at generating feelings of power and dominance that many design elements have found their way into the SM scene.

The whole Nazi "brand" is very well designed and managed. From logo to clothing to architecture.

I'm actually quite curious who was in charge of the project.

[thrombus29]

I just read a great article about Bauhaus in a New York mag at the doctors office yesterday.

http://nymag.com/homedesign/features/61726/

[Rrose Selavy]

I sometimes feel the Nazi regime and it's propaganda and those vast rallies almost seems like it might have come out of some bizarre Science fiction fantasy. If it wasn't so horribly real of course.


By the way, I also seem to remember seeing in a book on Art of the Third Reich , the original hand drawn designs by Hitler of the nazi standard banners
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_personal_standard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_personal_standard)




The design of the Nazi flag was introduced by Hitler as the party flag in the summer of 1920: a flag with a red background, a white disk, and a black swastika (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika) in the middle. In Mein Kampf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mein_Kampf), Hitler explained the process by which the Nazi flag design was created: It was necessary to use the same colours as Imperial Germany, because in Hitler's opinion they were "revered colours expressive of our homage to the glorious past and which once brought so much honour to the German nation." The most important requirement was that "the new flag... should prove effective as a large poster" because "in hundreds of thousands of cases a really striking emblem may be the first cause of awakening interest in a movement." Several designs by a number of different authors were considered, but the one adopted in the end was Hitler's personal design.[32] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Germany#cite_note-31) Albert Speer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Speer) stated in his memoirs that "in only two other designs did he (Adolf Hitler) execute the same care as he did his Obersalzberg house (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berghof_(Hitler)): that of the Reich War Flag (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskriegsflagge) and his own standard of Chief of State (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_personal_standard)".[33] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Germany#cite_note-32)



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Germany#Nazi_Germany

[Childlike Empress]

Goebbels was the propagandist for the Reich but had nothing to do with developing the "nazi brand". For that - exemplified by the swastika itself - you have to look at Theosophie, Ariosophie, Germanenorden and the Thule Gesellschaft. People like Jörg Lanz von Liebesfeld, Guido von List, Rudolf von Sebottendorf and Dietrich Eckart.


I messed up one of the names there. The sicko's name was Lanz von Liebenfels, not Lanz von Liebesfeld.

[MaGZ]

A thought struck me as I was reading another thread, which had an image of a Nazi rally in all its frightening glory...

I venture to suggest that one of the reasons for the appeal of the Nazis was (and with some people, still is) the visual spectacle, powerful iconography etc. - the striking banners - red, white and black swastikas - the impressive uniforms, use of colour/repetition and so on. Certainly it reinforces the concept of the movement being a powerful one.

The question was why and how did they get so good at it? It seems peculiar to me that a movement born in the 20s and 30s was so design-savvy (perhaps because we consider is such a modern skill).

Was there a Nazi design office that controlled the public image? Was it down to any particular individual?

Googling hasn't lead me to any names or specific groups - anyone know?

*Obligatory note - I have no love at all for the Nazis. I concede they (or some of them) had a powerful grasp on how to make themselves look good (in certain circumstances), but it doesn't mean I support them in any way whatsoever.

Hitler personally designed many of the NSDAP uniforms.

[Thunder]

Nazi uniforms and art are very appealing to those of weak will, low self-esteem, and a teeny weeny appreciation for their own individual identity and relevance.

I once wore a uniform and hated it. Why? I like doing my own thing.

[Skeptic]

Those fascinated with uniform remind me of Tom Lehrer's quip about the army, which he loves "for the fascinating rules and regulations that we share / and the quaint and curious costumes that we're called upon to wear".

A contemporary joke from Nazi Germany noted that, since everybody seems to belong to some organization that has its own uniform (SS, Nazi party, Hitler's youth, Todt organization, diplomatic corps, etc., etc.) -- then those actually in the military should wear turbans, to distinguish them from the civilian population.

By the way, two more contemporary German jokes. In the "Night of Long Knives", Rohm, who was a well-known as openly homosexual, was assassinated by Hitler for political reasons. After the massacre of the SA leaders (which goes to show that even Hitler wasn't all bad, I guess), Hitler expressed shock -- SHOCK! -- at the SA leadership's homosexual behavior (apparently Rohm promoted some of his, er, "friends" to high posts).

At the time, Berlin wits had two jokes:

1). "Only now do we realize the full meaning of Rohm's recent statement, 'out of every Hitler Youth an SA man will emerge'".

2). "Hitler's rage over Rohm's homosexuality was awful. Whatever will he do, when he finds out about Goebbles' club foot?"

[Matthew Ellard]

At the time, Berlin wits had two jokes:

May I add another german army joke from the time? It is about fighter aircraft flying above german troops in the late war.

"If it is blue underneath then it is British, If it is silver underneath then it is American, If it is invisible underneath then it is one of ours"

[Skeptic]

What's the difference between the sun and Hitler?

The sun rises in the east, Hitler sets in the east.

[Skeptic]

I think it was Field Marshal Halder who noted that a civilian as commander-in-chief would probably have done better than, of all people, an ex-corporal.

[Eddie Dane]

A contemporary joke from Nazi Germany noted that, since everybody seems to belong to some organization that has its own uniform (SS, Nazi party, Hitler's youth, Todt organization, diplomatic corps, etc., etc.) -- then those actually in the military should wear turbans, to distinguish them from the civilian population.



I'm reading Culture Of War by van Creveld. (http://www.amazon.com/Culture-War-Martin-van-Creveld/dp/0345505409/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1259223682&sr=8-1)
He really goes into the importance of uniforms for their psychological effect on the wearer. But also on the importance of setting the fighting class apart from the civilians.

Some people think the Italians got their ass handed to them in WWII, partly because they had stupid looking uniforms.

I think the psychological effect of the military style has many shades, though. Democracies with enlisted soldiers should always go for a basic yet battle-ready look. See USA in WWII and currently Israel.
After all, these countries did not field a warrior class, but everyday boys and girls called to fight.

The Nazi's looked so much like bad guys, George Lucas should have credited them for half the costume design on Star Wars.

[Floyt]

Totalitarian Art in 4 min:
1YE_j0xIsJA

That's Laibach, who managed to win an art contest in late communist Yugoslawia with original nazi propaganda, and were misunderstood ever since. ;)

That is exceedingly odd. Can't fathom how anyone could misunderstand these guys :boggled:

[Chaos]

What's the difference between the sun and Hitler?

The sun rises in the east, Hitler sets in the east.

The Nazis defined a new constant of physics, the Goering - it is the maximum number of decorations a single person can wear.

Eventually, Goering was forbidden from personally flying, because, every time he´d been up there, there was another star missing in the sky.

During an air raid, in the air raid shelter, an old lady was fascinated by the globe standing in one corner. She asked the air raid warden:
"That big blue area, is that Grossdeutschland?"
"No," the warden replied, "that is the United States of America."
"Then this big red area must be Grossdeutschland."
"No. That is the Soviet Union."
"And those many yellow patches scattered all over the world, surely they are the Reich?"
"No, that is the British Empire."
"So, where is Grossdeutschland?"
The warden points to a tiny grey area. The old lady stares at it in shock, then turns to the warden again.
"Does the Fuehrer know that?"

[Father Dagon]

That is exceedingly odd. Can't fathom how anyone could misunderstand these guys :boggled:Yeah, but in Yugoslavia, they knew how to take it easy.

And Susan Sontag says it all: Fascinating Fascism (1974) (http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/marcuse/classes/33d/33dTexts/SontagFascinFascism75.htm)

And regarding the more occult and arcane iconography, the Black Sun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sun_%28occult_symbol%29) is one of my favourites just because it's crammed to the gills with symbols. Of course it was never intended for popular use, as it lacks the simple dynamism of the swastika.

But the most underrated piece of iconography belonged to the SA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmabteilung).

[Skeptic]

The Nazis defined a new constant of physics, the Goering - it is the maximum number of decorations a single person can wear.

Eventually, Goering was forbidden from personally flying, because, every time he´d been up there, there was another star missing in the sky.

During an air raid, in the air raid shelter, an old lady was fascinated by the globe standing in one corner. She asked the air raid warden:
"That big blue area, is that Grossdeutschland?"
"No," the warden replied, "that is the United States of America."
"Then this big red area must be Grossdeutschland."
"No. That is the Soviet Union."
"And those many yellow patches scattered all over the world, surely they are the Reich?"
"No, that is the British Empire."
"So, where is Grossdeutschland?"
The warden points to a tiny grey area. The old lady stares at it in shock, then turns to the warden again.
"Does the Fuehrer know that?"

There are quite a few jokes about Hitler's cruelty and incompetence. After the Rohm purge, there was a mock addition to the Reich's constitution: "The Prime Minister both appoints and shoots his ministers in person".

By the way, a Goebbles is a new constant in time measurement -- the maximum amount of time a man can speak without saying a single sensible thing, or, alternatively, a anatomical unit -- the greatest degree a man can open his mouth without actually tearing up his face.

More here (http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,434399,00.html), for example.

[Soapy Sam]

It seems to me that any appeal (to adolescent boys mainly, I hope) in Nazi regalia and dress lies less in aesthetics and more in the lure of unbridled power.
We see them as frightening because they WERE frightening. They could do pretty much what they liked, with no pretence of tolerance for dissenting opinions.
They were the bullies every boy secretly wants to be.
The fact that it took America, Russia and the British Empire to stop them lends more glamour. The bastards were tough.

By contrast, "Illinois Nazis" are figures of fun, because the attempt of such fools to copy the external appearance fools nobody. They are pretend baddies. Himmler & co were the real thing.

[Rat]

Totalitarian Art in 4 min:
1YE_j0xIsJA

That's Laibach, who managed to win an art contest in late communist Yugoslawia with original nazi propaganda, and were misunderstood ever since. ;)
I've always loved the music of Laibach, though I find several of their videos to be apparently homoerotic, and I wonder how much this is intentional (or, indeed, imaginary on my part).

I suppose it's about time I post this again. This is of course my normal Saturday eveningwear, and in no way was I at a fancy-dress murder-mystery party.


http://www.rattusmaximus.co.uk/forumpics/ssme.jpg

[Childlike Empress]

Unconvincing.

[gumboot]

The Nazi's looked so much like bad guys, George Lucas should have credited them for half the costume design on Star Wars.


You have it backwards. The evil and depravity of the Nazi regime had such a profound impact on Western society that their uniforms have come to be associated with "bad guys".

[timhau]

Does anyone remember a documentary series called People's Century, a joint BBC/PBS production on the history of the 20th century? They had the brilliant idea of interviewing people who were actually there as history was being made; they had a separate episode reserved for Nazism, but the subject creeped up in an earlier episode about the nationalistic sporting fever of the 1930s, of which the Berlin Olympics of 1936 were a part.

They interviewed Robert Mitchell (transcript here (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/peoplescentury/episodes/sportingfever/mitchelltranscript.html)), a British olympic athlete who by his own admission was "very conscious of Germany and what was going on". Here's what he has to say about the closing ceremony (emphasis added):

Q: What was the general mood during the closing ceremony?

Mitchell: The closing ceremony was very impressive indeed. This stadium held about a hundred thousand, it was packed of course. And, ah, the, ah, closing ceremony itself, it was after dark when it was held and the lights were coming down. And the Olympic flame went out and then there was utter silence and utter darkness. And it really was most impressive. I'm not sure whether that was the first time that flame was done or not.

Ahm, then after that, Hitler ranted away, and he really did, and he flung his arms about and screamed and all the rest of it in Hitler fashion, went on for a long time. And then I think, my memory is getting slightly vague here, this was a long while ago, but I think after that then the whole special song was sung and then they started "zieg heil" and that was when a hundred thousand people were going "zeig heil, zeig heil." And I literally put my hands in my pocket, literally to stop myself being hypnotized into doing it with them. It was absolutely hypnotic.

And I found it absolutely frightening not because the crowd was going to do anything about it, they couldn't care if whether I was saying "zeig heil" or not but I thought, if one man can get these people, these hundred thousand stirred, because they were all out of their minds. They were all zeig heiling. And they were no longer men zeig heiling, they were just automatons zeig heiling and this was a very, very frightening experience to see the, the effect that the rantings and it was just rantings, the rantings of one man could transform this crowd from a...hundred thousand reasonable people into a hundred thousand hypnotized automatons. It was very frightening.

[Eddie Dane]

You have it backwards. The evil and depravity of the Nazi regime had such a profound impact on Western society that their uniforms have come to be associated with "bad guys".

This is just my interpretation, of course but...

I believe their theory was that in order to win, their elite should be completely devoid of the Christian morality of compassion. this would make them less effective. As it were, they had to erase modern morality and replace it with a morality more commonly found in the ancient world. Think Assyrians, ancient Hebrews, Romans. I believe this idea came from Nietzsche, or at least their interpretation of his writings.
If I'm not mistaken, SS-members were required to visit concentration camps as part of their training.

The Wehrmacht may not have looked evil to an unbiased observer. the US is currently using a helmet design (the "Fritz") that is very similar to the WWII German model. I guess the stigma is not big enough to forgo the practical advantages of the design.

But I'm talking specifically about the SS. Black uniforms, skull and crossbones emblem on the cap. I believe it was chosen to instil a mentality of cruelty in the wearer. And hence ended up looking like bad guys.

But I may not be able to look past my cultural bias, of course.

[Rrose Selavy]

On the Olympics, the now familiar torch relay from Greece preceeding the Games was first introduced for the 36 Berlin Games.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_Flame

[Oliver]

I've always loved the music of Laibach, though I find several of their videos to be apparently homoerotic, and I wonder how much this is intentional (or, indeed, imaginary on my part).

I suppose it's about time I post this again. This is of course my normal Saturday eveningwear, and in no way was I at a fancy-dress murder-mystery party.


http://www.rattusmaximus.co.uk/forumpics/ssme.jpg


How the heck did you end up in this costume? And how does your environment react whenever you wear it? :confused:

[Eddie Dane]

How the heck did you end up in this costume? And how does your environment react whenever you wear it? :confused:

He was going on an all-night bender with prince Harry. :D

But seriously Oliver, do you expect him to run a FEMA death camp in a tracksuit?

[BPScooter]

I once went to a Big-10 conference football game, where 100,000 were in attendance, and some young-radicals were ready to storm the field in triumph, but it actually turned out that the game had to be finished, by the rules, so they waited until the referee blew the whistle to officially end the game by waiting out the :13 left on the clock. They waited, then tore down the goalposts and got faces full of tear gas...

That's the difference.

[Ethan Thane Athen]

Does anyone remember a documentary series called People's Century, a joint BBC/PBS production on the history of the 20th century?

A fantastic series which unfortunately does not seem to be available on DVD. I wanted to buy it and pass to my daughters school for use in their history lessons. With DVD being such a cheap medium that all sorts of pap finds its way to being released it's a bit of a travesty that this top quality series remains buried.

Haven't noticed it repeated either.

[Skwinty]

I saw a program on the History channel which equated the Nazi regalia to the opera and theatre that Hitler enjoyed. Roman conquest and their flags and uniforms as well as the Roman catholic church.
Although Hitler was not religous, he was enarmoured with the Roman catholic pageantry and rituals.

"The next morning, Shirer was among the attendees at the Rally's opening ceremony, held inside a large hall on the outskirts of Nuremberg. It was Shirer's first experience with Nazi pomp and pageantry.
"I am beginning to comprehend," he wrote, "some of the reasons for Hitler's astounding success. Borrowing a chapter from the Roman [Catholic] church, he is restoring pageantry and color and mysticism to the drab lives of 20th Century Germans. This morning's opening meeting...was more than a gorgeous show, it also had something of the mysticism and religious fervor of an Easter or Christmas Mass in a great Gothic cathedral."

[the_smasher]

But I'm talking specifically about the SS. Black uniforms, skull and crossbones emblem on the cap. I believe it was chosen to instil a mentality of cruelty in the wearer. And hence ended up looking like bad guys.

From wikipedia:
While a multitude of uniforms existed for the SS, often depending on the theatre of war where they were stationed, the all black SS uniform is the most well known. Black, traditionally a German colour, was seen as somber and authoritative. Further, it was popular with fascist movements: a black uniform was introduced by the blackshirts in Italy before the creation of the SS. As with many more formal military uniforms, these SS uniforms were tailored to project authority, and foster fear and respect. As Himmler put it, "I know there are many people who fall ill when they see this black uniform; we understand that and don't expect that we will be loved by many people."

[Simon39759]

Actually, Hitler was quite probably religious, having attended a Roman Catholic church for all the duration of his childhood and having even seriously considered going to seminary school to train as a catholic priest.
He was very familiar with the rituals in question.

[Rat]

How the heck did you end up in this costume? And how does your environment react whenever you wear it? :confused:
Actually, my biggest concern was the possibility of being pulled over by the police for some piddling traffic offence on the way home. Although I'm sure some police would welcome me as one of their own.

[blutoski]

But I'm talking specifically about the SS. Black uniforms, skull and crossbones emblem on the cap. I believe it was chosen to instil a mentality of cruelty in the wearer. And hence ended up looking like bad guys.

The skull and crossbones (totenkopf = 'death head') icon was only for the division of SS called Totenkopfverbände. These were the staff at the extermination camps. The Final Solution was a secret operation mostly in Poland, so no: SS were not required to observe camp operations.

The other major divisions (I'm simplifying) were Waffen (armed), Gestapo (police), Einsatzgruppen (mobile death squads), the Sonderkommandos (special projects) and Ahnenerbe (aryan science). There was also a women's auxiliary and small squad of Hitler's Bodyguards Leibstandarte. None of these sported the totenkopf icon. Few would officially know about the Final Solution. Many would 'know' unofficially though, as ordinary Germans did have suspicions.

There was a system for finding the right people for amoral roles, which included identifying people with the right history, interview, and so on. The selection process was intended to stack these positions with the right sort of person from the start.

In addition, it was understood that the process required what we call 'facilitators'. Alcohol, for example, made it easier for the Einsatzgruppen who killed their victims in immediate presence. Arguably, process detachment is another type of facilitator, which is why the mass extermination camps used gas - the person who drops the gas in through the ceiling is not the person who saw the prisoners enter the chamber. The connection with the victims is minimized.

[Skwinty]

Actually, Hitler was quite probably religious, having attended a Roman Catholic church for all the duration of his childhood and having even seriously considered going to seminary school to train as a catholic priest.
He was very familiar with the rituals in question.

Hitler said you can either be a christian or a german but not both.
So I would question his commitment to religion regardless of his affiliations with the church.

[Eddie Dane]

The skull and crossbones (totenkopf = 'death head') icon was only for the division of SS called Totenkopfverbände. These were the staff at the extermination camps. The Final Solution was a secret operation mostly in Poland, so no: SS were not required to observe camp operations.

Ok, I probably misremembered that.


The other major divisions (I'm simplifying) were Waffen (armed), Gestapo (police), Einsatzgruppen (mobile death squads), the Sonderkommandos (special projects) and Ahnenerbe (aryan science). There was also a women's auxiliary and small squad of Hitler's Bodyguards Leibstandarte. None of these sported the totenkopf icon. Few would officially know about the Final Solution. Many would 'know' unofficially though, as ordinary Germans did have suspicions.

There was a system for finding the right people for amoral roles, which included identifying people with the right history, interview, and so on. The selection process was intended to stack these positions with the right sort of person from the start.

That is very interesting. I've always wondered how the recruited for the most extreme jobs. It is obvious that they could not just use normal soldiers, those would go pretty far and thought of Russians, Jews etc. as subhumans. But that is not enough to carry out outright extermination.

Did they look for emotionally damaged individuals? Or those with ideological zeal?

I know the subject is dealt with in the book/film The Reader, but does not provide an answer. Just the confusing realisation that a human can do such a "job".

Is there an on-line source about this subject?

Sorry if were drifting OT here. This might require it's own thread.

[Matthew Ellard]

I know the subject is dealt with in the book/film The Reader, but does not provide an answer. Just the confusing realisation that a human can do such a "job".

Is there an on-line source about this subject?.

This may be what you are looking for.

The Milgram Experiment was a Yale experiment where people dressed in uniforms of authority ( scientists) directed members of the public to give an unseen member electric shocks if they failed to repeat words in the correct order. The experiment concluded that more that 50% of "normal people" will continue to give, what they perceived as fatal, electric shocks if they are convinced they are doing so under some form of authority.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

In my mind, I believe the above experiment partially suggests why "rustic" people were able to be convinced by Nazi "authority" to knock off other humans.

I actually have a copy of the Milgram Experiment at home and it is quite funny to watch and I fairly sure elements of the video have ended up in various Simpsons episodes.

[gumboot]

But I'm talking specifically about the SS. Black uniforms, skull and crossbones emblem on the cap. I believe it was chosen to instil a mentality of cruelty in the wearer. And hence ended up looking like bad guys.

But I may not be able to look past my cultural bias, of course.


More examples of imagery that became associated with evil because the Nazis used it. The Totenkopf (Death's Head) emblem has a long tradition, particularly in Prussian and then German military units, dating back to at least the mid 18th Century and the Husaren-Regiment Nr. 5 (von Ruesch) - a Hussar Regiment under Frederick The Great. They had a black uniform also.

This continued with the Leib-Husaren Regiments in 1808, while during the Napoleonic Wars the "black Brunswickers" bore black uniforms and the Death's Head badge.

The Death's Head continued to feature on numerous Brunswick and Prussian armed forces, as well as on the uniform of German Stormtroopers in WWI. Between the wars numerous German units bore the device (including the Freikorps), as did numerous units during the 3rd Reich including Panzar units of both the Army and Airforce, such as the elite Fallschirm-Panzerdivision HG and the Kampfgeschwader 54 (54th Bomber Wing).

Other examples of the Death's Head symbol:

British Army - Queen's Royal Lancers continue to use the skull and crossbones in their emblem, inherited from its use by the 17th Lancers - a unit raised in 1759 following General Wolfe's death in Quebec, with an emblem of a death's head and the words 'Or Glory' chosen in commemoration of him.

In 1792, a regiment of Hussards de la mort (Death Hussars) was raised to defend the young French Republic from the Austrian attempt to invade France

The primarily Prussian 41st Regiment New York Volunteer Infantry, Mustered in: June 6, 1861-Mustered out: December 9, 1865 wore a death's head insignia.

The Kingdom of Sweden's Hussar Regiments wore it in the Prussian Style on the front of the Mirleton.

The White Russian Kornilov regiment adopted it in 1917.

The Estonian Kuperjanov's Partisan Battalion used the skull and crossbones as their insignia; the Kuperjanov Infantry Battalion continues to use the skull and crossbones as their insignia today.

During 1943-1945 the Italian Black Brigades and numerous other forces fighting for the Italian Social Republic, wore various versions of skulls on their uniforms, berets and caps.

And so forth...

[gumboot]

The skull and crossbones (totenkopf = 'death head') icon was only for the division of SS called Totenkopfverbände.


All SS units had the totenkopf as a hat badge. The Totenkopfverbände just had it on their shirt as well.

Also worth noting, once WW2 began the black SS uniform was abandoned and all black uniforms were ordered to be handed in for recycling.

[Eddie Dane]

This may be what you are looking for.

The Milgram Experiment was a Yale experiment where people dressed in uniforms of authority ( scientists) directed members of the public to give an unseen member electric shocks if they failed to repeat words in the correct order. The experiment concluded that more that 50% of "normal people" will continue to give, what they perceived as fatal, electric shocks if they are convinced they are doing so under some form of authority.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

In my mind, I believe the above experiment partially suggests why "rustic" people were able to be convinced by Nazi "authority" to knock off other humans.

I actually have a copy of the Milgram Experiment at home and it is quite funny to watch and I fairly sure elements of the video have ended up in various Simpsons episodes.

I am familiar with the Milgram experiment and the Stanford Prison experiment as well. And I agree that these go a long way in explaining behaviour. Isolated from dissenting voices, commanded by authority, detached from the actual suffering (as described by a poster above). These factors combine to enable people to commit horrible acts.

But still, there is the necessity for a selection process. The human resource management aspect, if you will.

having heard so much about the holocaust as a kid, I've always steered clear of reading anything too detailed about the subject.
Now that I'm pushing forty, I'm developing a need to know what exactly happened and how it was possible.
I recently received a testimony my grandfather gave to a commission here in the Netherlands, in which he gives a detailed account of the inner workings of the camp he was in. The account is very unemotional as the commission focussed on the role of the work camp in the German war effort. So it's kind of technical, who-did-what hierarchy stuff.

Still, it revived my interest.

[Eddie Dane]

More examples of imagery that became associated with evil because the Nazis used it. The Totenkopf (Death's Head) emblem has a long tradition, particularly in Prussian and then German military units, dating back to at least the mid 18th Century and the Husaren-Regiment Nr. 5 (von Ruesch) - a Hussar Regiment under Frederick The Great. They had a black uniform also.

This continued with the Leib-Husaren Regiments in 1808, while during the Napoleonic Wars the "black Brunswickers" bore black uniforms and the Death's Head badge.

The Death's Head continued to feature on numerous Brunswick and Prussian armed forces, as well as on the uniform of German Stormtroopers in WWI. Between the wars numerous German units bore the device (including the Freikorps), as did numerous units during the 3rd Reich including Panzar units of both the Army and Airforce, such as the elite Fallschirm-Panzerdivision HG and the Kampfgeschwader 54 (54th Bomber Wing).

Other examples of the Death's Head symbol:

British Army - Queen's Royal Lancers continue to use the skull and crossbones in their emblem, inherited from its use by the 17th Lancers - a unit raised in 1759 following General Wolfe's death in Quebec, with an emblem of a death's head and the words 'Or Glory' chosen in commemoration of him.

In 1792, a regiment of Hussards de la mort (Death Hussars) was raised to defend the young French Republic from the Austrian attempt to invade France

The primarily Prussian 41st Regiment New York Volunteer Infantry, Mustered in: June 6, 1861-Mustered out: December 9, 1865 wore a death's head insignia.

The Kingdom of Sweden's Hussar Regiments wore it in the Prussian Style on the front of the Mirleton.

The White Russian Kornilov regiment adopted it in 1917.

The Estonian Kuperjanov's Partisan Battalion used the skull and crossbones as their insignia; the Kuperjanov Infantry Battalion continues to use the skull and crossbones as their insignia today.

During 1943-1945 the Italian Black Brigades and numerous other forces fighting for the Italian Social Republic, wore various versions of skulls on their uniforms, berets and caps.

And so forth...

So indeed, my cultural bias.

Good detailed answer there, thank you.

[Eddie Dane]

All SS units had the totenkopf as a hat badge. The Totenkopfverbände just had it on their shirt as well.

Also worth noting, once WW2 began the black SS uniform was abandoned and all black uniforms were ordered to be handed in for recycling.

Do you know what the motivation was for that order?

[AgeGap]

I remember a TV programme that called the Nazi architecture style Heroic architecture (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=cvMNFOqVs3YC&pg=PA251&lpg=PA251&dq=heroic+architecture&source=bl&ots=cmvLRuzUh8&sig=rlLlo5WoaV9L3IH5rv2oAu_L-Uc&hl=en&ei=34MXS5GbIpKk4QaG6-3oAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ6AEwADgU#v=onepage&q=heroic%20architecture&f=false).

[Oliver]

Actually, my biggest concern was the possibility of being pulled over by the police for some piddling traffic offence on the way home. Although I'm sure some police would welcome me as one of their own.


Okay, but what was the idea behind wearing and buying/borrowing the uniform in the first place? I mean you probably know that wearing this uniform is pretty offensive to a lot of people, right? :confused:

[Simon39759]

Hitler said you can either be a christian or a german but not both.
So I would question his commitment to religion regardless of his affiliations with the church.

Actually, that quote was Rauschning's not Hitler's.

Hitler himself is a bit complicated and did made several anti-Christians' statement but also made many positive references to God and Jesus: ""National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary it stands on the ground of a real Christianity".

My understanding is that Hitler was raised as a Christian and believed himself to be a Christian.
But he also believed that the Christians churches had been infiltrated and corrupted by 'the joos', like the rest of society, really. As I see it, Hitler's view was that he was tasked to bring Germany back to the greatness of an idealized past and to similarly bring back Christianity to its former pre-corruption message.

So, I think he viewed himself as a Christian but did not really trust any of the Christian denominations and had a view of Jesus' message strikingly different from the most commonly accepted one, hence why I put him as 'religious' rather than outright Christian.

[timhau]

But he also believed that the Christians churches had been infiltrated and corrupted by 'the joos'

... such as the one the Romans nailed to a cross?

[blutoski]

Ok, I probably misremembered that.

No, I was mistaken; gumboot is correct: the Totenkopfverbände was distinguished by having totenkopf collar pins *in addition to* a standard SS cap symbol.

Sorry about that.

Eddie Dane asked about the change in colour code, and my understanding is that the motivation was to keep the commissioned officers in black uniforms, but have noncomissioned personnel change to a grey uniform.





That is very interesting. I've always wondered how the recruited for the most extreme jobs. It is obvious that they could not just use normal soldiers, those would go pretty far and thought of Russians, Jews etc. as subhumans. But that is not enough to carry out outright extermination.

You've mentioned familiarity with the Milgrom and Stanford Prison. These experiments actually have some valid criticism, but at the same time lend insight.

Specifically, the criticism of the Stanford Prison experiment is the wording of the volunteer recruitment advertisement. It is probable that it attracted an unstable element, and was not representative of the population at large.

Interesting enough, Zimbardo was just at UBC doing a talk a couple of weeks ago, and we had an opportunity to consider these criticisms. I think they have merit.

But the take-away is that if you want to build a staff that's "capable" of cruelty, you can get there faster with the right type of recruitment / intake screening.

I'm reminded of the Raveen shows (is that too Canadian?).

It's also important to understand that much of the killing in the East was not conducted by German soldiers or even SS, but by local collaborators. A good portion of the executioners didn't need to be recruited at all. The Germans merely had to give them ammunition, vodka, and a blind eye.





Did they look for emotionally damaged individuals? Or those with ideological zeal?

I know the subject is dealt with in the book/film The Reader, but does not provide an answer. Just the confusing realisation that a human can do such a "job".

Is there an on-line source about this subject?

Sorry if were drifting OT here. This might require it's own thread.

It's relevant to the question about how to use psychology in an effort to manipulate political control. Many of these people had good political instincts, but they recognized a machine that large with new technologies benefitted from a more modern approach. Sun Tzu and Machaivelli didn't really address the potential of film or radio mass media.

[Simon39759]

... such as the one the Romans nailed to a cross?


Meh; just look at the picture, everybody knows Jesus is a tall, brown-haired, blue-eyed caucasian...



(Seriously, he is a Nazi, he doesn't have to make sense).

[Matthew Ellard]

All SS units had the totenkopf as a hat badge. The Totenkopfverbände just had it on their shirt as well.

Also worth noting, once WW2 began the black SS uniform was abandoned and all black uniforms were ordered to be handed in for recycling.

That's not exactly true. All tank crews still wore black in both the army and Waffen SS. However by late 1944 the uniform was starting to break down so you can see men wearing odd mixes of current uniforms, older uniforms and the various camoflage patterns made by smaller factories. The standard German army uniform changed in 1943 to remove the black collars and simplify production. They also dropped "jack boots" for normal boots and gaiters as they were running out of leather.

[Matthew Ellard]

Now that I'm pushing forty, I'm developing a need to know what exactly happened and how it was possible.


My father was a psychiatrist in the RAAF. I often talked to him about this.
My father talks about "authority" but also states that "over learning" is another method to make humans do awful things without thinking. "Over learning" is where you repeat a task over and over and over again so you do it without thinking. I don't really know but I assume the concentration camp guards simply followed very "step by step" procedures to shove people into ovens without thinking. I also assume the victims had undergone "step by step" procedures having documents stamped, getting on and off trains etc and they just walked into the execution chambers without thinking. This is what makes the whole thing so insane.

[rocketdodger]

Personally, I have been fond of nazi fashion since I first saw the first Indiana Jones.

Although I am a securely heterosexual male I must admit that Harrison Ford is jaw droppingly handsome in that wehrmacht uniform.

[fuelair]

Are you joking? Ever hear of the Weimar Republic? Bauhaus? Germany in the 20s was one of the most culturally fertile and creative periods in art history.

What psychictv said - Design of that type was big and Germany was part of the movement! Though, Hitler preferred art that was like photos - no abstraction or weirdness (unless you consider a photorealistic Hitler in a photorealistic suit of armor on a photorealistic horse to be a touch weird).

Hitler was a family values kind of guy.



Think about that point.:jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp

[fuelair]

Personally, I have been fond of nazi fashion since I first saw the first Indiana Jones.

Although I am a securely heterosexual male I must admit that Harrison Ford is jaw droppingly handsome in that wehrmacht uniform.

And I want to fly with a Stuka squadron (damn they look great!!!) over WWII Germany so we can fire off HE shells from the Kannonenvogel (Ju-87Gs) and Hellfire missles from the Ju87-Bs at select targets.

[fuelair]

Of course, but I was commenting on the idea that design is somehow a "modern skill" that wasn't developed yet in the '20s and '30s. That period was arguably the peak of design in the 20th century Since the middle of that century, the overall quality of design in the world has fallen dramatically.

As another point of comparison, take a look at the WPA posters (http://images.google.com/images?q=wpa+posters) created by the U.S. government in the late '30s, early '40s and compare them to anything the government publishes today.

Anyway, the Nazis certainly lived in a period of highly sophisticated design and that overall atmosphere influenced them even though they explicitly denounced and dismantled the Bauhaus itself. In comparison to other modern design, the Nazi's stuff was pretty schlocky. It only looks well designed now from the point of view of the design wasteland that is today.Also well pointed out!! (a phrase I use to mean "Drat, you beat me here with those points!!!" !)

[Eddie Dane]

It is worth pointing out that their paintings and sculptures from that period were actually kind of crap.

It was more a case of cool looking military hardware, architecture (but certainly not all of it), logos and uniforms.

I recently looked around for Soviet propaganda posters, I remember that some of them were really well done. Couldn't find a comprehensive site.

Oh, and my brother has book with posters from communist China. Can you say freaky? It looks like those guys were on acid.

[gumboot]

That's not exactly true. All tank crews still wore black in both the army and Waffen SS. However by late 1944 the uniform was starting to break down so you can see men wearing odd mixes of current uniforms, older uniforms and the various camoflage patterns made by smaller factories. The standard German army uniform changed in 1943 to remove the black collars and simplify production. They also dropped "jack boots" for normal boots and gaiters as they were running out of leather.


Yeah, tank crews always wore black, but the infantry SS units dropped the black uniforms in 1939 because black's just not a practical colour for field operations. That's when they adopted their reversible field uniforms with camouflage and so forth. The old black SS uniforms were then sent to local volunteer police units raised in the Balkans and east Germany.

[Simon39759]

It is worth pointing out that their paintings and sculptures from that period were actually kind of crap.

It was more a case of cool looking military hardware, architecture (but certainly not all of it), logos and uniforms.

I recently looked around for Soviet propaganda posters, I remember that some of them were really well done. Couldn't find a comprehensive site.

Oh, and my brother has book with posters from communist China. Can you say freaky? It looks like those guys were on acid.


I agree with your (subjective) opinion.
The way I see it, Hitler got into power and started privileging the style he liked and clean the country for the one he did not (the so-called degenerate art).
Unfortunately, Hitler and his close collaborator had quite a ******, pompier taste and favoured realistic looking unimaginative depiction over ones of deeper artistic values (they hated Picasso, they hated the impressionism and such).
Also the authoritarian mentality of the Nazi regime did not really direct them to support freedom loving artists. The antics of a Van Gogh or a Matisse would have been frowned upon, to say the least.

[dudalb]

Yeah, tank crews always wore black, but the infantry SS units dropped the black uniforms in 1939 because black's just not a practical colour for field operations. That's when they adopted their reversible field uniforms with camouflage and so forth. The old black SS uniforms were then sent to local volunteer police units raised in the Balkans and east Germany.

The Non Waffen SS continued to wear the Black Uniform, but most of those in the Waffen SS Treated those who wore Black with disdain since they consiered them to be slackers who were dodging combat, a traditional attitude of frontline soldiers in any army toward those in the rear. When I was in the US Army in one of the combat branches, we had a nasty little term inherited from Nam for the non combat branch soldiers....REMF.
Rear Echelon M----- F-----.
This has probably gone on since the first soldiers in Sumer.

[BPScooter]

On topic, I think, there is a book called "Music as Propaganda" by Arnold Perris that is a very good read. He defines propaganda, and has chapters on Beethoven and Mozart and Verdi operas [anti-authoritarian comedy, tragedy]. He deals with Nazi and Soviet and Mao attitudes [art by the people, for the people... or else!].

While being a music-centered discussion, I think he frames the broader artistic issues well.

[Eddie Dane]

OK, the following is NSFW.

Click on this link (http://gigapica.geenstijl.nl/2009/12/gigapica_agent_provocateur.html) and scroll down for a fine example of Nazi influences in fashion.

They started a war that killed fifty-five million people. But the did have positive effect on on modern ladies' body-wear. :)

Now, what shall I get my wife for Christmas?

[Rrose Selavy]

Having seen the above link and been fairly familiar with other similar er..fashions.
Much of the influence came I suspect from the promotion of films of the 70s of variable quality such as Salon Kitty and The Night Porter and of course Cabaret.


Souxsie Sioux (in)famously wore a swastika armband in the late 70s.


For much of 1976, Siouxsie wore swastika armbands in an attempt to enrage the Establishment's 'we fought a war for the likes of you' mindset. She succeeded, though today her naivety- what NME's Julie Burchill decried as "making a fashion accessory out of the death of millions of people"-seems unforgivable. Siouxsie is surprisingly frank, if unrepentant.
"The culture around then," she explains, "it was Monty Python, Basil Fawlty, Freddie Starr, The Producers- 'Springtime For Hitler'." She kicks out her leg in a mock goosestep. "It was very much Salon Kitty. It was used as a glamour thing. And you know what?" she sighs." I have to be honest but I do like the Nazi uniform. I shouldn't say it but I think it's a very good-looking uniform."


http://www.untiedundone.com/020105b.html

[Matthew Ellard]

[QUOTE=Rrose Selavy;5379745] Souxsie Sioux (in)famously wore a swastika armband in the late 70s.

They all did. Sid wore the red T-shirt with the big swastika and Johnny wore the "Anarchy straight jacket" with the big gree swastika and the upside down jesus. However it was a "piss take" and Souxie and the Banshees did release a single "Metal Postcard" making fun of the Nazi "Steel makes people strong, butter makes people fat" at the time. I still have the single.

[Matthew Ellard]

Yeah, tank crews always wore black, but the infantry SS units dropped the black uniforms in 1939 because black's just not a practical colour for field operations. That's when they adopted their reversible field uniforms with camouflage and so forth. The old black SS uniforms were then sent to local volunteer police units raised in the Balkans and east Germany.

Not exactly. The Waffen SS panzer grenadiers only ever wore "Feld grau" (until camoflage) but tank crews in both the Werhmacht and Waffen SS wore black right up until the end. You will see SS crews "assault gun" crews in field grey because they were "artillery" rather than tank crews. Black is simply the best colour for oil and powder burn stains. ( However, all combat uniforms started to break down by late 1944 and there are photos of soldiers wearing anything near the end)

Here are two SS tank crew in black in early 1945 in their King Tiger.
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/images/tig2_kr.jpg

[Rrose Selavy]

[quote=Rrose Selavy;5379745] Souxsie Sioux (in)famously wore a swastika armband in the late 70s.

They all did. Sid wore the red T-shirt with the big swastika and Johnny wore the "Anarchy straight jacket" with the big gree swastika and the upside down jesus. However it was a "piss take" and Souxie and the Banshees did release a single "Metal Postcard" making fun of the Nazi "Steel makes people strong, butter makes people fat" at the time. I still have the single.

I also have that single coupled with "Love in a Void" with the excellent anti nazi John Heartfield montage cover though I also recall their was some criticism with the interpretation of the lyrics
eg "Too many Jews for my liking..."

=

-

[kittynh]

Oddly don't give them too much credit. They tried to foist their vision of "art" on the public. They had a showing of "banned" art, and it was a big hit. Their art showing was a big failure.

A lot of the architecture was pretty dreadful, and the giant rallies were planned around looking good on film. The use of FILM and the media was a bigger influence than "art" in general. A rally filmed correctly influenced far more people than attended the rally.

The Nazis were not fans of "bauhaus" and really hated new visions such as "Dada". The influence of "Nazi Art" pretty much ended with the Nazis. Except with skin heads.

[Matthew Ellard]

[quote=Matthew Ellard;5383855]

I also have that single coupled with "Love in a Void" with the excellent anti nazi John Heartfield montage cover though I also recall their was some criticism with the interpretation of the lyrics
eg "Too many Jews for my liking..."
-

I have "Love in a void" as an album track on The Scream, their first album. I didn't hear the "Too many jews for my liking" and it wasn't on her lyric sheet but I will have another listen incase someone "toned down" the printed lyrics. People also forget the Cure's first single was "Killing an Arab" about one year after The Scream was released and Robyn Smith played guitar for both bands when they played here in Sydney as a double bill in 1979. I think the bands did whatever annoyed the mainstream radio stations in that period. Think of Polystyrene in Xray-spexs singing "Rape me, take me, tie you to your wall, Oh Bondage, Up yours!" on top of the pops in 1977!

Here is X-Ray Spex in 1977 doing "Oh Bondage"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogypBUCb7DA

People always think of the punk bands as the Sex Pistols, The Damned and The Clash. It's rubbish. There were many other bands that were great and never got anywhere. Have you heard of Wire? Wire is still playing today although as an art band! My brother's band, Severed Heads toured with wire in the mid 80's.

[Rrose Selavy]

[quote=Rrose Selavy;5383885]

I have "Love in a void" as an album track on The Scream, their first album. I didn't hear the "Too many jews for my liking" and it wasn't on her lyric sheet but I will have another listen incase someone "toned down" the printed lyrics.

I'm referring to the original UK single release. It was never originally on the first issue of The Scream in the UK but doubtless there were further issues and compilations worldwide.
It was played live in the early days with those lyrics but they were toned down for most if not all official issues of the track.

-

[luchog]

People also forget the Cure's first single was "Killing an Arab" about one year after The Scream was released and Robyn Smith played guitar for both bands when they played here in Sydney as a double bill in 1979.

I'm not sure anyone who actually listens to The Cure "forgets" about that song; which was a reference to L'Etranger by Albert Camus, not any sort of racist commentary.

Laibach's use of Nazi imagery was predominantly for shock/symbolic value; and was combined with a blatant homoeroticism.

[Matthew Ellard]

[quote=Matthew Ellard;5385206]

I'm referring to the original UK single release. It was never originally on the first issue of The Scream in the UK but doubtless there were further issues and compilations worldwide.
It was played live in the early days with those lyrics but they were toned down for most if not all official issues of the track.

-

Your right. I just looked at the album. It's not on either version of the Scream. My vinyl version doesn't have Hong Kong Garden but my CD version does. There was a second album that had a long WW1 poem, Flanders Fields on it, but I lost it years ago. Was "Love in a Void" on that or was it only a single? I only bought Hong Kong Garden as a single. The second album wasn't very good and I sort of gave up when the single "Christine" came out.
I bought a bootleg in 1979 of their first gig with Sid Vicious playing drums and they did the Lord's Prayer and it was terrible.

[Rat]

Okay, but what was the idea behind wearing and buying/borrowing the uniform in the first place? I mean you probably know that wearing this uniform is pretty offensive to a lot of people, right? :confused:
Well, as I implied (well, denied, but was obviously lying) in the post with the picture, I was attending a fancy-dress murder mystery. The other guests were wearing other costumes (because they weren't playing the part of Nazis), but were in costume. While there are obvious differences, would you also object to an actor playing the part of a Nazi in a film wearing a Nazi uniform?

[AgeGap]

Are we the baddies?

France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussar#France)
UK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Queen%27s_Royal_Lancers)
USA (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/F-14-vf-84.jpg)

[Matthew Ellard]

Are we the baddies?

France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussar#France)
UK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Queen%27s_Royal_Lancers)
USA (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/F-14-vf-84.jpg)

That was very clever. Your point is clear.

[The Norseman]

OK, the following is NSFW.

Click on this link (http://gigapica.geenstijl.nl/2009/12/gigapica_agent_provocateur.html) and scroll down for a fine example of Nazi influences in fashion.

They started a war that killed fifty-five million people. But the did have positive effect on on modern ladies' body-wear. :)

Now, what shall I get my wife for Christmas?

Yes.

[Marduk]

Okay, but what was the idea behind wearing and buying/borrowing the uniform in the first place? I mean you probably know that wearing this uniform is pretty offensive to a lot of people, right? :confused:

actually, its the swastika that is offensive, not the uniform. Nazi uniforms are quite popular costumes on the fetish scene because of their connotations of power and their fashion statement, people wearing them are welcome at the majority of fetclubs in the UK, no one is welcome with a Nazi armband. People wearing the uniform are not agreeing with the politics unless they are also wearing the political symbol. A costume is a costume and to the victor go the spoils
;)

[Marduk]

Are we the baddies?

France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussar#France)
UK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Queen%27s_Royal_Lancers)
USA (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/F-14-vf-84.jpg)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SO5WoLnOOlU
Mitchell and Webb are the baddies
;)

[BPScooter]

Speaking entirely for myself, and since the original post was asking about visuals:

No, don't wear any clothing today that reeks of the Nazi. If you do, you will be asked, by well-meaning people, to explain yourself. If your explanation is coherent, don't be surprised if people might not want to consort with you, nevertheless.

Edited to include: http://www.seattlepi.com/local/394443_nazi02.html

[Oliver]

Well, as I implied (well, denied, but was obviously lying) in the post with the picture, I was attending a fancy-dress murder mystery. The other guests were wearing other costumes (because they weren't playing the part of Nazis), but were in costume. While there are obvious differences, would you also object to an actor playing the part of a Nazi in a film wearing a Nazi uniform?


Well, an actor isn't displaying his personal flavor since he wasn't the one choosing the costume - while on the other hand, you did. :p

[joobz]

Relevant humour video: [Are we the baddies? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SO5WoLnOOlU)]
that's great

[Marduk]

Well, an actor isn't displaying his personal flavor since he wasn't the one choosing the costume - while on the other hand, you did. :p
All actors have to audition for those roles, Actors don't tend to audition for roles without knowing what the role os first, so every stereotypical Nazi in uniform you ever saw in a movie had to work hard to get that part, more so than Rat, if anything by your scale this means that their employment is morally questionable
but as they are actors already......
:p

[MikeSun5]

It seems to me that any appeal (to adolescent boys mainly, I hope) in Nazi regalia and dress lies less in aesthetics and more in the lure of unbridled power.
We see them as frightening because they WERE frightening. They could do pretty much what they liked, with no pretence of tolerance for dissenting opinions.
They were the bullies every boy secretly wants to be.

Excellent point, and almost as if to prove your statements, this article talks about an MMA fighter (http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/blog/cagewriter/post/WEC-chief-No-Hoelzer-Reich-for-Zuffa-fighters?urn=mma,207448) who was wearing a shirt that got the clothing line banned from being worn during competition. The clothing line in question (http://www.hr4life.com) is most definitely Nazi-inspired...

...which probably shouldn't be banned, but the people wearing that stuff are obviously ignorant and attention-starved.

[joobz]

...which probably shouldn't be banned, but the people wearing that stuff are obviously ignorant and attention-starved.

Attention starved? maybe.
Into gay Biker fetishism? definitely.

[Rat]

Well, an actor isn't displaying his personal flavor since he wasn't the one choosing the costume - while on the other hand, you did. :p
Well, I did choose it, yes. But since the part chosen for me to play was that of a Nazi, it would have been a little incongruous if I had turned up as a ballerina. It would also have made the plot of the murder mystery a little more hard to follow.

Of course, the person organising the party did look at the character list and immediately knew that that part was ideal for me, because I am a fascist.

[Ikarus]

Fascist architecture and art was reactionary. Modern art was, perhaps, too frugal and uncontrollable. Nazi architecture was stern, often inspired by classical examples, but mainly it was big and more about psychology than aesthetics.

Albert Speer was a very important figure in Hitler's Architectural and Manifestation Design. He proposed a redesign for Berlin; Germania. It was supposed to become the epicentre of the Third Reich, with buildings well beyond the human scale, built to impress and humble it's visitors. Hitler loved it, but there was not time to build any of it.

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/1417/gerwelthauptstadtgerman.jpg
Design for the new Volkshalle (people's hall). The old Reichstag of Germany is in the near right hand side wall of the courtyard before the big dome.

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/7990/233909465211f5ed39f6.jpg
Another view of Germania. The Brandenburger Tor is absorbed underneath a colossal arch. In the distance the Volkshalle.
ETA: I am not quite sure that is the Brandenburger Tor, actually? In any case, it is huge.
ETA2: It seems it isn't; The location of the Brandenburger tor is where the entrance to the courtyard of the Volkshalle is.
ETA3: I was wrong again. It's the little structure at the bottom of picture 1.

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/5742/gesamt02.png
Yet a little further away. The huge Gesammlungshalle (gatheringhall) in front of the arch. Notice all the very large buildings along the main axis, compared to the buildings in the old city fabric.

Thought I'd share.

[Arcade22]

Fascist architecture and art was reactionary. Modern art was, perhaps, too frugal and uncontrollable. Nazi architecture was stern, often inspired by classical examples, but mainly it was big and more about psychology than aesthetics.

Albert Speer was a very important figure in Hitler's Architectural and Manifestation Design. He proposed a redesign for Berlin; Germania. It was supposed to become the epicentre of the Third Reich, with buildings well beyond the human scale, built to impress and humble it's visitors. Hitler loved it, but there was not time to build any of it.

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/1417/gerwelthauptstadtgerman.th.jpg (http://img41.imageshack.us/i/gerwelthauptstadtgerman.jpg/)
Design for the new Reichstag. The old Reichstag of Germany is in the near right hand side wall of the courtyard before the big dome.

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/7990/233909465211f5ed39f6.th.jpg (http://img9.imageshack.us/i/233909465211f5ed39f6.jpg/)
Another view of Germania. The Brandenburger Tor is absorbed underneath a huge arch. In the distance the New Reichstag.

Thought I'd share.

Beautiful. http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/188094b2d51a947b60.gif (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=18510)

[Marduk]

Of course, the person organising the party did look at the character list and immediately knew that that part was ideal for me, because I am a fascist.
Your hairs a hippy though
:p

[Childlike Empress]

While in this universe, Love Parade 2006
http://meetusattheloveparade.com/assets/images/Loveparade_Berlin2006_1.jpg

[Springfork]

It is worth pointing out that their paintings and sculptures from that period were actually kind of crap.

I don't agree. Arno Breker was "Hitler's official sculptor", and he was top-notch. Otto Lieber was another fine sculptor during that time period.

[Rrose Selavy]

I don't agree. Arno Breker was "Hitler's official sculptor", and he was top-notch. Otto Lieber was another fine sculptor during that time period.

Breker mostly produced a particularly dull and unremarkable take on a kind of mythologized classicism. As did many of the official Nazi artists. Technically competent up to a point but otherwise woefully academic and forgettable.

If they hadn't been Hitler's faves we probably wouldn't have heard of them.
Leni Riefenstahl's films being one of the few controversial exceptions.

I can't google any of Lieber's sculpture - if you can find any examples I'd be curious to take a look.

[BPScooter]

Well, since I'm not going to dress up like anyone else soon, I'd rather have my visual style described "too frugal and uncontrollable" than "big and more about psychology than aesthetics." {Thanks Ikarus, for the verbiage!}. But each to his/her own, of course.

[Moss]

I'd like to share the tidbit that Adolf Ziegler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Ziegler) was called "Reichsschamhaarmaler" ("the Reich's pubic hair painter" in English) behind his back for his unimaginative and endless nude paintings.
Nazi art may be good from the technical perspective, but it lacks anything that represents contemporary trends. It only echoes the few condoned themes nazi literature is also about: the life of peasants, nature, military, "heroic deeds" of the "Bewegung" and its (often pocketed) "forerunners" like leaders of the 16th century peasant revolts.
It's simplistic, trite, martial and shallow. And it tends to keep up the glorification and reinterpretation of the past that dominated popular 19th century art.
It also plays heavily on pathos and heroic sacrifice for the cause, the "Bewegung". In that it is both morbid and sterile, it's more focused on honoring the dead than on showing the grisly death war brings with it.

[Matthew Ellard]

Well, I did choose it, yes. But since the part chosen for me to play was that of a Nazi, it would have been a little incongruous if I had turned up as a ballerina. It would also have made the plot of the murder mystery a little more hard to follow.

Of course, the person organising the party did look at the character list and immediately knew that that part was ideal for me, because I am a fascist.

This does seem like a silly conversation. People dress as the grim reaper at Halloween. Of course you can wear a Nazi uniform to a fancy dress party. If anything it lets you explain to someone who the Nazis were. If we "hide" this history then some ignorant person will bring it back up again as a fashion statement.

I used to wear yellow tartan bondage pants as I was with the Vauxhall punk rockers in the late 70's and I was trying to look as disgusting as possible. This fashion died out in two years. Nowdays a Japanese fashion label produces yellow tartan trousers with zips & straps all over them for "cute children". I had to explain to the parents what those straps were for and that they were dressing their child in bondage trousers, complete with studded "bum flap".