Everybody get down! He's got...an almanac?

[shanek]

Is there anyone anywhere anymore who still denies that this whole anti-terrorism thing has gotten ridiculous, even surreal?

FBI urges police to watch for people carrying almanacs, warns they could be used to plan attacks (http://ap.dodgeglobe.com/stories/20031229/1758838.shtml)

WASHINGTON — The FBI is warning police nationwide to be alert for people carrying almanacs, cautioning that the popular reference books covering everything from abbreviations to weather trends could be used for terrorist planning.

In a bulletin sent Christmas Eve to about 18,000 police organizations, the FBI said terrorists may use almanacs "to assist with target selection and pre-operational planning."

It urged officers to watch during searches, traffic stops and other investigations for anyone carrying almanacs, especially if the books are annotated in suspicious ways.

The following paragraph should fill you with rage at the blatant disregard for freedom and due process:

"For local law enforcement, it's just to help give them one more piece of information to raise their suspicions," said David Heyman, a terrorism expert for the Washington-based Center for Strategic and International Studies. "It helps make sure one more bad guy doesn't get away from a traffic stop, maybe gives police a little bit more reason to follow up on this."

Hoo boy...What's next? Atlases? Fodor's Guides? And who is this "Poor Richard" guy, anyway? People in poverty are more vulnerable to recruitment from terrorist organizations, y'know...

[Nyarlathotep]

I seem to recall that during the cold war, accurate maps of Russia were hard to come by because of similar security concerns. What worries me is that our own people might start getting similar ideas...

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep
I seem to recall that during the cold war, accurate maps of Russia were hard to come by because of similar security concerns. What worries me is that our own people might start getting similar ideas...

In USSR it was illegal for civilians to own detailed maps of USSR. I do not recall what the punishment was but I'm fairly certain you'd be going to colder climates.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Grammatron


In USSR it was legal for civilians to own detailed maps of USSR. I do not recall what the punishment was but I'm fairly certain you'd be going to colder climates.

you do mean illegal right? Otherwise your post is quite confusing;)

But that's the sort of path I worry about us heading down. Maybe not immediately, but eventually. It's why little things like that scare me.

[shanek]

Oops, missed this thread:

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33078

But mine has a cooler title, don't you agree? :D

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep


you do mean illegal right? Otherwise your post is quite confusing;)

But that's the sort of path I worry about us heading down. Maybe not immediately, but eventually. It's why little things like taht scare me.

Well yes...but only if you want to be accurate about it.

BTW, it's spelled "that." :p

[Cleon]

I never even thought of actually buying an almanac. Until now. :biggrin: Time to hit Ye Olde Booke Store...

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep


you do mean illegal right? Otherwise your post is quite confusing;)

But that's the sort of path I worry about us heading down. Maybe not immediately, but eventually. It's why little things like that scare me.

Ooops, meant to edit a post for a misspelling and ended up quoting it instead. Ignore this, my bad.

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by shanek
The following paragraph should fill you with rage at the blatant disregard for freedom and due process:

I must be disfunctional then.

I am not enraged.

[Grammatron]

Originally posted by aerocontrols


I must be disfunctional then.

I am not enraged.

That is possibly due to the fact that on the other thread you reasoned this out and it makes sense for such a warning not only is logical but is not anti-freedom.

Of course having said that I still don't see how you could use this information beneficially. If a confused tourist is looking at the almanac he will also look suspicious.

[Michael Redman]

Originally posted by shanek
Hoo boy...What's next? Atlases? Fodor's Guides?Internet access. The connection to terrorism is obvious.

And feet. People with feet are more likely to be terrorists than people without feet. Feet should be treated as suspicious.

[American]

It's a small piece of an overall profile. The usual pseudo-pundits have picked up on it the same way they claimed duct-tape was a useless tool to have for emergencies.

Which it isn't; duct tape is a very sensible item to keep but by no means the solution to most problems. Likewise, an almanac is good for selecting targets that you want to bomb in order to kill people and cause economic damage.

[TillEulenspiegel]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep
I seem to recall that during the cold war, accurate maps of Russia were hard to come by because of similar security concerns. What worries me is that our own people might start getting similar ideas...

Hmm guess You missed the articles in the papers about the government blurring certain buildings ( White House, treasury) in all satellite pictures.

American : "It's a small piece of an overall profile. "

American's right it's people with an almanac who wear Italian tablecloths on there head that are suspicious.

[American]

Originally posted by TillEulenspiegel

American's right it's people with an almanac who wear Italian tablecloths on there head that are suspicious.


Leave shanek out of this.

[shanek]

Originally posted by American
Leave shanek out of this.

[peeks out from behind his Italian tablecloth]

What? What?

[Tesserat]

Oh great. My wife's down in Florida, taking her niece and nephew to see Epcot, she'll be wandering around with a map, talking to the kids in a foreign language.

Definitely suspicious.

We both like buying almanacs as an interesting thing to read while waiting at airports, lineups. It's a great thing to have when you're performing around the States, and you want to find out some quick things about the place where you're going.

Well, so much for that.

[corplinx]

I think there is an implied "profiling" aspect here. You see a farmer with a farmer's almanac. You don't raise an eyebrow. You see an 18-25 year old mid-eastern looking guy with an almanac and a copy of Microsoft flight sim. That might strike you as very interesting.

In other words, I think this was one of those things they basically floated for local PD and such to have in their heads so that if they pull a terrorist over for a traffic stop they might at least tip off the FBI.

Is it unfairly racial? Of course not. If a white guy with a schwastika tattoo walked up to a walmart and tried to buy all the fertilizer at the garden center to be loaded onto his Ryder truck (and, oh, let me move that drum of diesel first) I would expect the same sort of profiling.

Almanacs on the surface seems silly until you figure its just another piece of the profile.

[sorgoth]

I think it's ridiculous.

An almanac? I don't consider that a good enough reason to arrest someone.

[Nyarlathotep]

Originally posted by sorgoth
I think it's ridiculous.

An almanac? I don't consider that a good enough reason to arrest someone.

Well, to be honest I don't think anyone is going to get arrested for merely having an almanac.

My main concern is that it stay that way. My main worry is that it won't.

[sorgoth]

Originally posted by Nyarlathotep


Well, to be honest I don't think anyone is going to get arrested for merely having an almanac.

My main concern is that it stay that way. My main worry is that it won't.

Taking freedom away is like moving a wall...

You can't do it all at once, you have to do it brick by brick.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by sorgoth
Taking freedom away is like moving a wall...

You can't do it all at once, you have to do it brick by brick.

Sure you can...and in Las Vegas, too! (http://www.lasvegassun.com/dossier/events/aladdin/implosion.html)

[Hypocolius]

Originally posted by shanek

The following paragraph should fill you with rage at the blatant disregard for freedom and due process:


There's a name for telling people how to feel, and what to think. Let us form our own opinions please.

[Zep]

Let's get to the real source of the problem.

Isn't it true that only people with money can afford to buy almanacs? Therefore shouldn't we be on the lookout for mid-eastern looking young men with money?

But then these men may have jobs that PAY them that money, so the profile should also include mid-eastern looking young men with paying jobs, shouldn't it?

But maybe these young men are being GIVEN money by older men, or they stole the almanacs from the store. So perhaps the profile is now settling on shoplifting rent boys of mid-eastern appearance...

Surely there can't be too many of those around? Perhaps we should just ask Hugh Grant...

[shanek]

Man...it's disheartening to see so many people who have no problem at all with the fact that the government is considering us all to be potential terrorists...

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by shanek
Man...it's disheartening to see so many people who have no problem at all with the fact that the government is considering us all to be potential terrorists...

That's only because we are all, in fact, potential terrorists. The "gubment" cannot see into our hearts....and guess what? We don't want them to, do we?! Therefore the "evil gubment" must take precautions. I agree that some of these precautions sound stupid,...but it's hard to argue with the success these measures seem to have had. Unless of course you think Osama has decided to let bygones be bygones??

-z

[TillEulenspiegel]

OK , So were all agreed then on the model? Eastern looking young men who speak in a different tongue weaing tablecloths on thier heads who posses an almanic and have money?

Right.......So who's gonna E-Mail Tom Ridge?

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by shanek
Man...it's disheartening to see so many people who have no problem at all with the fact that the government is considering us all to be potential terrorists...

Actually, what you seem to be irked about here is that the government is trying to figure out what clues point to who may be a terrorist vs who is less likely to be one, without waiting until after somebody commits a terrorist act.

There are the three options here, right?

1) Consider any given person to be a potential terrorist, but no one moreso than the other, regardless of how they behave or what clues there may be.

2) Try to figure out how to determine who is more likely to be a terrorist.

3) Don't look for terrorists until after a terror act has occured.

Is there a fourth option I'm missing? The reason I ask is that from the rhetoric of your objection, you don't like #1, and from the substance of your objection, you don't like #2. That leaves #3 or perhaps another option that I'm missing.


A side question, somewhat related:

Can anyone tell me what US laws the Sept. 11th terrorists had broken prior to Sept. 11?

[Tmy]

God help us if they ever put out an alert for people carrying porn magazines. Then the terrorists have won.

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by TillEulenspiegel
OK , So were all agreed then on the model? Eastern looking young men who speak in a different tongue weaing tablecloths on thier heads who posses an almanic and have money?

Right.......So who's gonna E-Mail Tom Ridge?

Tom Ridge knows that model. He also knows the Gun-rack militia model, and the Elf/Alf hippy model, and the Southern Baptist abortion clinic bomber model.

That would be part of good law enforcement.

[whitefork]

Originally posted by aerocontrols
Can anyone tell me what US laws the Sept. 11th terrorists had broken prior to Sept. 11? As I recall, some of the hijackers were here on expired visas. I can't provide a link. Edited to add:
Here's one http://www.rediff.com/us/2001/nov/23ny4.htm

That would be a violation of federal law.

Two were stopped for speeding. http://www-tech.mit.edu/V121/N67/terror.67w.html Not much I admit.

[shanek]

Originally posted by rikzilla
That's only because we are all, in fact, potential terrorists. The "gubment" cannot see into our hearts....and guess what? We don't want them to, do we?! Therefore the "evil gubment" must take precautions.

I think there's a document somewhere that disagrees with you. Hmmm...seem to be drawing a blank on the title...long word...begins with "C"...

I agree that some of these precautions sound stupid,...but it's hard to argue with the success these measures seem to have had.

WHAT success???

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by shanek

WHAT success???

Exactly! :hit:

[shanek]

Originally posted by aerocontrols
There are the three options here, right?

1) Consider any given person to be a potential terrorist, but no one moreso than the other, regardless of how they behave or what clues there may be.

2) Try to figure out how to determine who is more likely to be a terrorist.

3) Don't look for terrorists until after a terror act has occured.

Is there a fourth option I'm missing?

Yes: 4) 2), but make the determination so broad that it might as well be 1). That seems to be what they're doing here. The longer the list grows, and the more mundane and even surreal items there are on it, the more each of us is considered a possible terrorist. And the less effective these anti-terrorist measures become.

Can anyone tell me what US laws the Sept. 11th terrorists had broken prior to Sept. 11?

Just off the top of my head: Forging IDs, embezzling money, conspiracy to commit murder (such as the plans to spray poison from crop dusters), and many others.

Now, perhaps you could explain to us what the point of your question was?

[KelvinG]

I think anyone caught carrying an almanac, especially if they are of middle eastern origin, should be immediatley declared an enemy combatant and sent to Guantanamo Bay.

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by shanek
Yes: 4) 2), but make the determination so broad that it might as well be 1). That seems to be what they're doing here. The longer the list grows, and the more mundane and even surreal items there are on it, the more each of us is considered a possible terrorist. And the less effective these anti-terrorist measures become.

Says you. It seems (though you do not say) that your preference is that the government pursue path (2). It also seems that deviations from Shanek-approved path-2 actions are a grave threat to liberty.

Originally posted by shanek
Just off the top of my head: Forging IDs, embezzling money, conspiracy to commit murder (such as the plans to spray poison from crop dusters), and many others.

I would prefer links rather than info 'off the top of your head'. It's fine, though. None of these crimes is likely to get someone caught before they get away with terrorism.

Originally posted by shanek
Now, perhaps you could explain to us what the point of your question was?

Surely you already knew the reason. The problem is that terrorists aren't likely to commit high-profile crimes that get them pinched prior to committing their terrorist acts. This forces law enforcement to other avenues in order to catch them.

Do you believe one could get a conviction of Atta for his plans to spray poison from crop dusters?

MattJ

[shanek]

Originally posted by aerocontrols
Says you. It seems (though you do not say) that your preference is that the government pursue path (2). It also seems that deviations from Shanek-approved path-2 actions are a grave threat to liberty.

I would submit that, aside fromt he threats to our liberty, sending out alerts on mundane, common, and everyday items like almanacs detract from the ability to persue path (2).

What if it could be shown that most of the terrorists eat bread? Should the government consider bread-eating reason for suspicion?

It's fine, though. None of these crimes is likely to get someone caught before they get away with terrorism.

And neither is putting out alerts for people with almanacs.

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by shanek
I would submit that, aside fromt he threats to our liberty, sending out alerts on mundane, common, and everyday items like almanacs detract from the ability to persue path (2).

That would be a judgement call. I just don't understand why you seem to interpret every judgement call the government makes that conflicts with your own judgement to be a threat to liberty that everyone should be outraged about.

I'm sure it can be shown that most (all?) of the terrorists had eaten bread. The Justice Department has chosen to ignore that, no doubt for the same reasons that you would choose to ignore both bread and almanacs. The Justice Department has not chosen to ignore almanacs.

Perhaps that is a bad decision. Perhaps it is not. Some get filled with rage at decisions we believe to be bad decisions, others of us simply wonder if they are particularly useful or not...

MattJ

[Agammamon]

Originally posted by Grammatron


In USSR it was illegal for civilians to own detailed maps of USSR. I do not recall what the punishment was but I'm fairly certain you'd be going to colder climates.

It wasn't actually illegal to own an accurate map of any part of the USSR. It was just nearly impossible to get one froma Soviet source. The most accurate maps of the USSR were from outside the country. The sovs introduced delibverate errors into their own, just in case.

Though you have to wonder why. It makes about as much sense as adding an almanac to "suspicious behavior" and getting terrorism. Their enemies already had superb maps, all it did was hamper their own citizens.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by TillEulenspiegel
OK , So were all agreed then on the model? Eastern looking young men who speak in a different tongue weaing tablecloths on thier heads who posses an almanic and have money?

Right.......So who's gonna E-Mail Tom Ridge?

The 9/11 hijackers wore civilian clothes.

[Iconoclast]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto
The 9/11 hijackers wore civilian clothes.
Surely you mean Western clothes?

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Iconoclast

Surely you mean Western clothes?

You know, I could have sworn I corrected that mistake. Never mind. Yes, Western clothes is what I meant.

But they weren't wearing army fatigues either. :D

[epepke]

Ironically, back in High School forensics, it was the ultra-conservatives who always carried around copies of the World Almanac.

The liberals carried around copies of Statistical Abstracts of the United States.

[schplurg]

My concern with this isn't that the FBI etc will be using this Almanac stuff to "profile" people.

I think it's irresponsible to notify the public of this "technique". I hope most people aren't stupid enough to be alarmed when they see someone carrying an Almanac (although many probably are).

Next time will it be "we are suspicious of all one-armed white males"? Or perhaps "People wearing turbans are being considered as highly suspicious"?

Maybe there are valid reasons for this almanac thing. I'm sure there is more to this than just questioning everyone who is seen with an almanac, but without seeing the entire picture, it can only cause harm and suspicion among the general population. When I saw this headline, all I could think was how irresponsible it was to feed the public this type of information.

[Troll]

Originally posted by schplurg
My concern with this isn't that the FBI etc will be using this Almanac stuff to "profile" people.

I think it's irresponsible to notify the public of this "technique". I hope most people aren't stupid enough to be alarmed when they see someone carrying an Almanac (although many probably are).

Next time will it be "we are suspicious of all one-armed white males"? Or perhaps "People wearing turbans are being considered as highly suspicious"?

Maybe there are valid reasons for this almanac thing. I'm sure there is more to this than just questioning everyone who is seen with an almanac, but without seeing the entire picture, it can only cause harm and suspicion among the general population. When I saw this headline, all I could think was how irresponsible it was to feed the public this type of information.

Well said. :clap: