Why did Truthes abandon LIHOP and can it be resurrected?

[Thunder]

The concept of LIHOP, the idea that the Bush administration became aware of the 9-11 attacks and let it happen, so that they could invade Iraq and Afghanistan, and push through all sorts of long desired Executive powers, died back in 2005.

Instead, we have the vastly imaginative, rediculous, and almost impossible MIHOP theories, such as themite, space-beams, the various No-Plane theories, etc etc etc.

But as we have seen over the last few years, the MIHOP theories have gained very little traction, and have even turned many people away from 9-11 Truth, because of their wackiness, silliness, and insanity.

Will LIHOP theories ever be resurrected, because of this?

It would certainly give the Truthers more members, and lend them a reputation of more realism and rational thinking, and less imaginative crazy mindset.

But maybe thats the whole thing. LIHOP is more rational, more believable, and would be more palatable for the American people..and maybe thats why Truthers reject it.

Self-defeating movement...anyone?

[RedIbis]

What specifically about LIHOP do you consider "more rational, more believable"?

[Thunder]

LIHOP does not believe in controlled demolitions, does not believe in fly-overs at the Pentagon or no planes at the Pentagon and Shanksville.

LIHOP believes that 19 crazy Islamic fundamentalist pigs took over 4 planes and rammed them into 3 of the largest buildings on Earth.

that is why LIHOP is soooo very more rational and logical then the many insane MIHOP theories.

just think, if you guys had spent the last 8 years trying to prove that Bush and Co. knew about 9-11 but didn't do anything to stop it..you might have actually accomplished something significant by now.

But that may be the whole thing....9-11 Truthers don't really want to accomplish anything. This is really about money, ego, and attention.

[RedIbis]

Is there any evidence to suggest that Bush and Co. did know about the attacks but failed to stop them, seeing an opportunity to further foreign policy objectives?

[T.A.M.]

Here is my take, and it varies with some of the more common opinions here on JREF.

I think LIHOP is more plausible then MIHOP. While the amount of hard evidence for either is essentially non-existent, I find it easier to rationalize based on a minimal amount of circumstantial "what about this" bits of evidence the idea of LIHOP, compared to the ridiculous and evidenceless based stupidity of the MIHOP scenarios.

I think the reason why we see the truth "movement" abandoning, for the most part, the LIHOP scenario, is due to (A) an abandonment of the entire concept by a lot of the angry "questioners" that simply hated Bush and Cheney. When Obama won, the population of those who were simply so angry as to contemplate, even without evidence, the idea that Bush and Cheney were in on allowing it to happen, bottomed out. (B) It doesn't sell DVDs or Books to the paranoid angry young man subgroup that comprises, I suspect, about 80-90% of sales for the snake oilers.

TAM:)

[RedIbis]

TAM,
You were probably writing your post when I posted mine, but if you could take a look and address the question I asked Parky. Thanks.

[T.A.M.]

Is there any evidence to suggest that Bush and Co. did know about the attacks but failed to stop them, seeing an opportunity to further foreign policy objectives?

That is a good question. I think there is evidence that they were warned that the "Lights were binking red". I also think they were so focused on other areas of foreign policy, that terrorism to the Cheney administration was like a fly buzzing about, and nothing more.

I also think, however, that this problem extended, to a degree, into the Clinton administration. Many of the fundamental problems had to do with a lack of ability, and an extreme lack of desire (call it turf wars if you will) for agencies to share information.

Red. Have you read John Farmer's book "The Ground Truth"? IF you have what do you think, and if not, do you intend to do so?

It is a good read.

TAM:)

[T.A.M.]

Is your point, cloaked in vagueness, that the reason many have abandoned LIHOP is a lack of evidence? compared to MIHOP??? really? that is funny, so I am assuming I am reading you wrong here.

TAM:)

[Thunder]

I have seen a lot of suggestions that various countries warned the USA about coming attacks during the summer of 2001. i haven't seen anything as of yet about hijacking airplanes and crashing them into the WTC, the Pentagon, and the Capital building.

but we must admit, a conspiracy theory that Bush and Co. knew and did nothing, is a whole lot more plausable then Bush and Co. thinking up the whole thing and doing themselves.

LIHOP requires a conspiracy of just a few powerful people.
MIHOP requires a conspiracy of many high-level and low-level folks...which makes it all the less plausible.

and in the minds of paranoid conspiracy theorists, monumental events require monumental explanations, and I guess LIHOP just don't cut it for them.

It ain't sexy enough.

[Horatius]

But maybe thats the whole thing. LIHOP is more rational, more believable, and would be more palatable for the American people..and maybe thats why Truthers reject it.




Most people rational enough to see that LIHOP is more likely than MIHOP are also rational enough to see the problems with LIHOP as well. Combine that with most MIHOP supporters basing their beliefs on things like, "It looks like a CD!", which are inconsistent with LIHOP, and we end up with LIHOP people gradually moving into two camps: Full-on MIHOPers, and people who don't believe any of the "HOP" hypotheses.

Add to that the effect of the CT snakeoilers: it's a lot easier to sell DVDs that show massive building collapses set to music, than to sell a dry dissertation on intra-government relations. This is the same problem real historians have trying to explain what really happened.

[DavidJames]

Feed the trolls feed the trolls

Edit - Seriously, this has been covered by the same people for years, other then posting just because you can, what's the freaking point.

[RedIbis]

That is a good question. I think there is evidence that they were warned that the "Lights were binking red". I also think they were so focused on other areas of foreign policy, that terrorism to the Cheney administration was like a fly buzzing about, and nothing more.

I also think, however, that this problem extended, to a degree, into the Clinton administration. Many of the fundamental problems had to do with a lack of ability, and an extreme lack of desire (call it turf wars if you will) for agencies to share information.

Red. Have you read John Farmer's book "The Ground Truth"? IF you have what do you think, and if not, do you intend to do so?

It is a good read.

TAM:)

I haven't read Farmer's book, but I intend to. Is it similar to Shenon's approach which is a scathing attack based on a hamstrung Commission and a very uncooperative administration?

[Mobertermy]

got it

[Pardalis]

Aren't you supposed to be 95% MIHOP, Red? Now you're switching to LIHOP?

[Justin39640]

So many truthers are "pot committed" to MIHOP that coming back and acknowledging the terrorists were real and dangerous would make them look like fools.

How can Gage Jones etc etc come back and claim LIHOP when they've been pushing nano-stupidity for years.

LIHOP theories won't sell as many books or videos as MIHOP.
MIHOP is all about the money.

[Algebra34]

I think LIHOP is possible. But then I wonder if the powers that be in just such a scenario would be comfortable and confident enough the hijackers would go through with it and be successful all on their own and that it would be a big enough event to springboard their agenda. To much room for the hijackers to screw up without any help.

[Brainster]

I doubt if LIHOP was ever really that popular among the "activists" in the 9-11 Troof Movement. It's more a gateway drug; a way to get somebody interested enough to start "researching" (i.e., investigoogling). And that's still how it's used today, by people like Jon Gold, even though he really believes in full-scale involvement by the government.

The reason why it's fallen completely into disfavor is pretty simple: Steven Jones and Richard Gage are the primary causes. Jones with his "peer-reviewed" papers and Gage with his clown act allow a sort of fusion of MIHOP and LIHOP; it's LIHOP+CD. No longer do the Troofers have to deny the planes, they can simply argue supermagiconanothermitate.

[Justin39640]

I think LIHOP is possible. But then I wonder if the powers that be in just such a scenario would be comfortable and confident enough the hijackers would go through with it and be successful all on their own and that it would be a big enough event to springboard their agenda. To much room for the hijackers to screw up without any help.

Even if they had failed, the attempt would have made huge waves.

[RedIbis]

Aren't you supposed to be 95% MIHOP, Red? Now you're switching to LIHOP?

So trying to generate some discourse is "switching to LIHOP"? But yes, MIHOP is more plausible, in my opinion, because LIHOP cannot explain WTC 7.

[RedIbis]

The reason why it's fallen completely into disfavor is pretty simple: Steven Jones and Richard Gage are the primary causes. Jones with his "peer-reviewed" papers and Gage with his clown act allow a sort of fusion of MIHOP and LIHOP; it's LIHOP+CD. No longer do the Troofers have to deny the planes, they can simply argue supermagiconanothermitate.

That makes absolutely no sense. CD is MIHOP.

[Pardalis]

Ah right, I forgot, WTC7, the truther holy grail. What would you do without it?

But don't you think MIHOP involves an increasingly long list of people, and is too complex to even be feasible in the real-world?

[Justin39640]

So trying to generate some discourse is "switching to LIHOP"? But yes, MIHOP is more plausible, in my opinion, because LIHOP cannot explain WTC 7.

Um yes it does.
WTC 1 fell into it. Starting massive fires which weren't fought (this is the death blow in any structure fire) and it fell in the chaos of the day.

You are not LIHOP.

[Pardalis]

So Red, you think a huge conspiracy involving thousands of people, to blow up three buildings including two of the world's higher skyscrapers, with unprecedented technology, in total secrecy while they were occupied, to fake a plane crash into the Pentagon and fake the DNA, all this is more believable than LIHOP or the official explanations?

Is that really what you think?

[T.A.M.]

I haven't read Farmer's book, but I intend to. Is it similar to Shenon's approach which is a scathing attack based on a hamstrung Commission and a very uncooperative administration?

No it is more of an approach to where, in his mind, corrections could have been made, where had things gone different the attacks might have been thwarted approach.

TAM:)

[R.Mackey]

David Ray Griffin recently came out against any consideration of LIHOP (http://www.911blogger.com/node/21671), and I suspect he's not alone.

So to embrace LIHOP means concluding that Truth Movement "Leaders" are idiots.

They will never do this. Because they have nothing approaching evidence, the only justification they have for their beliefs is the personal credibility of those they parrot. Once this is lost, they have ... nothing. No alternative but to give up their beliefs entirely.

This is, in microcosm, why the Truthers abandoned LIHOP -- because a few individuals in the Movement came up with much wilder theories, and others chose to follow. They never decided LIHOP vs. MIHOP on the basis of any evidence, physics, or logical argumentation. If they had, there wouldn't be a Truth Movement. The problem is that this kind of "logic" is a one-way street, and now, years later, they're trapped.

[T.A.M.]

I doubt if LIHOP was ever really that popular among the "activists" in the 9-11 Troof Movement. It's more a gateway drug; a way to get somebody interested enough to start "researching" (i.e., investigoogling). And that's still how it's used today, by people like Jon Gold, even though he really believes in full-scale involvement by the government.

The reason why it's fallen completely into disfavor is pretty simple: Steven Jones and Richard Gage are the primary causes. Jones with his "peer-reviewed" papers and Gage with his clown act allow a sort of fusion of MIHOP and LIHOP; it's LIHOP+CD. No longer do the Troofers have to deny the planes, they can simply argue supermagiconanothermitate.

Exactly, very much an intro level to the madness, which is where the vast majority of the "questioners" in 2006-2007 were. When Obama won, most of them, having no further interests, and having had the baddies removed, just dumped it.

TAM:)

[T.A.M.]

Ah right, I forgot, WTC7, the truther holy grail. What would you do without it?

But don't you think MIHOP involves an increasingly long list of people, and is too complex to even be feasible in the real-world?

It is the truther holy grail, but really it is a tin cup. It suffers not from some rosetta stone of truther evidence, but rather from a lack of importance that resulted in a lack, to some degree of thorough investigation as to its cause until well after the fact...In comparison to WTC1/WTC2.

The biggest **** up, IMO, with respect to shutting up the truther idiots (and it could not have been foreseen, and it was would not have really mattered IRL) was the lack of evidence collection, compared to the other towers, for WTC7.

It is the lack of physical evidence confirming that the towers came down as a result of fires and poor building design that makes it their grail (tin cup), not that it holds anything proving an inside job.

Yet Red holds to it like he was hanging from a cliff by it.

TAM:)

[McHrozni]

That is a good question. I think there is evidence that they were warned that the "Lights were binking red". I also think they were so focused on other areas of foreign policy, that terrorism to the Cheney administration was like a fly buzzing about, and nothing more.

There is another thing that you're actually missing. US president doesn't control the CIA. He puts people in charge, who then lead the agency. These people also don't supervise who and what to investigate and what not to investigate, they put people in charge who do that. The only way a LIHOP scenario would be remotely possible if Bushes' people would immediately replace key people in key positions that oversaw the relevant investigations. This would certainly leave a trace, and there is absolutely no guarantee it would even work. The time he would have had to do such necessary changes would be on the order of weeks at most.

All of this makes any LIHOP scenario extremely implausible. Less so than any MIHOP, because any MIHOP requires the same plus the actual attacks to be carried out, of course, but it is still not even remotely plausible - regardless of any red lights going off. Again, it's not the presidents' job to direct every intelligence operation, or any intelligence operations for that matter.

McHrozni

[T.A.M.]

There is another thing that you're actually missing. US president doesn't control the CIA. He puts people in charge, who then lead the agency. These people also don't supervise who and what to investigate and what not to investigate, they put people in charge who do that.

I didn't miss it, just failed to mention it. Your above point is the #1 focus of Farmer's book actually. The disconnect between the heads of the various agencies, and the foot soldiers that worked for them. This is one of the key factors, along with the turf wars and information hording, that lead, in his (and many others) opinion, to the attacks sneaking under the radar, so to speak.

TAM:)

[Algebra34]

I didn't miss it, just failed to mention it. Your above point is the #1 focus of Farmer's book actually. The disconnect between the heads of the various agencies, and the foot soldiers that worked for them. This is one of the key factors, along with the turf wars and information hording, that lead, in his (and many others) opinion, to the attacks sneaking under the radar, so to speak.

TAM:)

What's changed? We just had another "no one could have known" incident. And people are dead. Except the week after there is all kinds of stuff revealed to have been known. There will be an investigation but again no one will be held accountable for failing to stop it. Not accountable in any kind of real way.

[McHrozni]

I didn't miss it, just failed to mention it. Your above point is the #1 focus of Farmer's book actually. The disconnect between the heads of the various agencies, and the foot soldiers that worked for them. This is one of the key factors, along with the turf wars and information hording, that lead, in his (and many others) opinion, to the attacks sneaking under the radar, so to speak.

TAM:)

Aha, cool :)

McHrozni

[TruthersLie]

What's changed? We just had another "no one could have known" incident. And people are dead. Except the week after there is all kinds of stuff revealed to have been known. There will be an investigation but again no one will be held accountable for failing to stop it. Not accountable in any kind of real way.

Ya know algebra...

how many civil liberties are you wanting to trample all over? Huh? How many constitutional protections of american citizens to you want to give up?

Did the military know about this guy? Some. Were there warning signs? Some.

Should they have violated his civil rights BEFORE he committed a crime?

Should he have been profiled?

That is the problem in a free country... the government is always running to catch up.

you can have freedom or you can have security but you can never have both at the same time.

AS for no one being held accountable? I'm sure he will get a fair and honest trial, be found guilty and executed... that is the ultimate accountablility...

Oh you mean in the chain of command, and the complaints about that.... rrrrriiiiiiggggghhhhhhtttttt.

[defaultdotxbe]

Is your point, cloaked in vagueness, that the reason many have abandoned LIHOP is a lack of evidence? compared to MIHOP??? really? that is funny, so I am assuming I am reading you wrong here.

TAM:)
i think lack of evidence is in fact the reason truthers abandoned LIHOP

i know that makes no sense, until you realize what the truthers consider "evidence"

with LIHOP they cant talk about free fall speed, smelling cordite, steel shipped to china, NIST compromised, videos with explosions added, sqibs, power downs, MASCAL, missing debris, oxygen-deprived fires, fat osama, flyovers, tv fakery, and even the scare quotes on "official story" lose their meaning. they have to throw out all their favorite talking points, leaving them with ignored warnings and maybe standowns

[T.A.M.]

i think lack of evidence is in fact the reason truthers abandoned LIHOP

i know that makes no sense, until you realize what the truthers consider "evidence"

with LIHOP they cant talk about free fall speed, smelling cordite, their videos with explosions added are useless, sqibs, power downs, MASCAL, missing debris, oxygen-deprived fires, fat osama, flyovers, tv fakery, etc. they have to throw out all their favorite talking points, leaving them with ignored warnings and maybe standowns

Yes, it is amazing how quiet and withdrawn the snakeoil salesman can become when you take away his props.

TAM:)

[DGM]

David Ray Griffin recently came out against any consideration of LIHOP (http://www.911blogger.com/node/21671), and I suspect he's not alone.

So to embrace LIHOP means concluding that Truth Movement "Leaders" are idiots.

They will never do this. Because they have nothing approaching evidence, the only justification they have for their beliefs is the personal credibility of those they parrot. Once this is lost, they have ... nothing. No alternative but to give up their beliefs entirely.

This is, in microcosm, why the Truthers abandoned LIHOP -- because a few individuals in the Movement came up with much wilder theories, and others chose to follow. They never decided LIHOP vs. MIHOP on the basis of any evidence, physics, or logical argumentation. If they had, there wouldn't be a Truth Movement. The problem is that this kind of "logic" is a one-way street, and now, years later, they're trapped.
Right on!
For LIHOP to be a thing the "official explanation" as to how the buildings collapsed, NIST reports and so forth would have to be correct. This goes 180 degrees from what the "truther" plan is (to make money off the gullible).

[Thunder]

If Bush and Co. actually knew about all the details of 9-11 and still did nothing to stop it, that is an act of treason. if the truthers really cared about justice, they would not care which makes for a better DVD. they would just want criminals to pay.

[Kevin.Silbstedt]

All of this makes any LIHOP scenario extremely implausible. Less so than any MIHOP, because any MIHOP requires the same plus the actual attacks to be carried out, of course, but it is still not even remotely plausible - regardless of any red lights going off. Again, it's not the presidents' job to direct every intelligence operation, or any intelligence operations for that matter.

Ok, thats true, but the president isn't the only one, who could have known something (actually I doubt that Bush knows anything).

If there is just one guy (doesn't matter if he is in the US goverment or in the economy), who knew that this would happen and didn't say a thing about this, because maybe he is a sick bastard or wanted to make profit out of this story, then LIHOP is already true.

Thats the good thing about LIHOP, there is no need for a stupid massive conspiracy. But thats also the bad part about this, because you can't prove or disprove it. And then you have to go with "Ockhams Razor" or you could just hunt agents of the Matrix, because you can't disprove that stuff either.

David Ray Griffin recently came out against any consideration of LIHOP, and I suspect he's not alone.

So to embrace LIHOP means concluding that Truth Movement "Leaders" are idiots.


Hmm, that alone makes it interesting.

Maybe "I'm such a non-conformist, i'm not going to conforn with any of you non-conformists" and became a LIHOPer. ^^

[McHrozni]

O
If there is just one guy (doesn't matter if he is in the US goverment or in the economy), who knew that this would happen and didn't say a thing about this, because maybe he is a sick bastard or wanted to make profit out of this story, then LIHOP is already true.

The LIHOP requires him to know enough of the plot to be able to intervene and deliberately not doing do so. Considering the number of people that would be involved in the multiple investigations, that effectively excludes a small conspiracy.

Thats the good thing about LIHOP, there is no need for a stupid massive conspiracy.

That is an advantage of the LIHOP vs MIHOP, yes. You have to realize, however, that this story is riddled with problems - such information would be coming from multiple sources, from people who would not have the whole picture and would be left wondering why their information wasn't processed. Don't you think that the 9/11 Comission would find that out rather easily, as would the media?

LIHOP suffers from an entirely different problem. Once you remove Bush and the top leadership from equation, you have to accept the 9/11 Comission did an honest attempt at finding the truth, and that there are people out there who are keeping silent about critical information they knew they passed on, but wasn't processed - likely affecting their careers as well. Why would they do that?

McHrozni

[R.Mackey]

Hmm, that alone makes it interesting.

Maybe "I'm such a non-conformist, i'm not going to conforn with any of you non-conformists" and became a LIHOPer. ^^

Knock yourself out. :D

There's plenty of good arguments against LIHOP, too. We just never have to even dust them off, because the Truthers are so fascinated with nanodoubletalk and remote control airplanes and all the rest of the James Bond / comic book garbage.

[DGM]

Thats the good thing about LIHOP, there is no need for a stupid massive conspiracy.

But it does through most of the "truther" talking points under the bus. Controlled demolition, missiles, shoot downs, fake phone calls and ect, all out the window. Result? Death of the "truth" movement.

[Kevin.Silbstedt]

The LIHOP requires him to know enough of the plot to be able to intervene and deliberately not doing do so. Considering the number of people that would be involved in the multiple investigations, that effectively excludes a small conspiracy.


Ok, just take an american armsdealer. While buissness he finds out that Al Kaida plans 911, but he also knows, that if there would be a war after this attack, he would make more money. So he just shut his mouth and let it happen.

I think this is already LIHOP, without any investigation, just one guy. Possible, but you can't prove or disprove it.

That is an advantage of the LIHOP vs MIHOP, yes. You have to realize, however, that this story is riddled with problems - such information would be coming from multiple sources, from people who would not have the whole picture and would be left wondering why their information wasn't processed. Don't you think that the 9/11 Comission would find that out rather easily, as would the media?

You are right, but only if you have to do an investigation to know something about the plot.

Once you remove Bush and the top leadership from equation, you have to accept the 9/11 Comission did an honest attempt at finding the truth

Yeah, that doesn't sound like a typical X-Files episode, so it's not fun to believe in it. Maybe thats the main reason why nobody believes in LIHOP, there isn't enough spectacular fantasy crap in it.

But it does through most of the "truther" talking points under the bus. Controlled demolition, missiles, shoot downs, fake phone calls and ect, all out the window. Result? Death of the "truth" movement.

Thats perfect. If the Truth Movement wouldn't be already dead, I could demonstrate as a LIHOPer and call every Truther a des-info agent. That would be fun. :D

[T.A.M.]

Well if you want to take it to extremes, then LIHOP is already true. True in the sense that there were people who LET IT HAPPEN ON PURPOSE. Osama Bin Laden did. KSM did. I am sure members of SaudI and/or Pakistani Intelligence did.

I think the general ASSUMPTION with the LIHOP scenario is that there were those in a position to stop it, who allowed it to happen on purpose, despite those people SUPPOSEDLY being on OUR side.

TAM:)

[dtugg]

So trying to generate some discourse is "switching to LIHOP"? But yes, MIHOP is more plausible, in my opinion, because LIHOP cannot explain WTC 7.

As was explained, WTC7 can be explained with LIHOP. And besides, MIHOP can't explain it. Or it hasn't yet at least. No twoofer has explained how they did it and why they did it. Perhaps you'll be the first?

(That last part was a joke, you of course will do no such thing)

[McHrozni]

Ok, just take an american armsdealer. While buissness he finds out that Al Kaida plans 911, but he also knows, that if there would be a war after this attack, he would make more money. So he just shut his mouth and let it happen.

I think this is already LIHOP, without any investigation, just one guy. Possible, but you can't prove or disprove it.

I was under the impression that LIHOP stipulated it was elements within the US government that knew enough of the plot to stop it, but deliberately left it to proceed.
Of course some private individuals knew enough to do so. One is currently and until further notice locked up in Florence, Colorado.

Yeah, that doesn't sound like a typical X-Files episode, so it's not fun to believe in it. Maybe thats the main reason why nobody believes in LIHOP, there isn't enough spectacular fantasy crap in it.

You missed the point entirely. It would be very difficult for the 9/11 Comission to miss such people, whom they were investigating, and who would come forward with such information anyway. Unless the 9/11 Comission was put in place by Bush et.al. with the explicit purpose to fail in it's investigations, then you have to conclude it's findings are largely correct.
If you do argue that, as twoofers usually do, then you already have the problem of a vast and incredibly complex conspiracy.

McHrozni

[Kevin.Silbstedt]

I think the general ASSUMPTION with the LIHOP scenario is that there were those in a position to stop it, who allowed it to happen on purpose, despite those people SUPPOSEDLY being on OUR side.

You're right. I think too make this clear, we should draw a line.

If I go with your position, 911 was LIHOP, because almost everyone would be in the position to do something about this, if they would have known the plan. Just call your favorite TV Station, Journal, CIA Agent, Reptilian or what ever and there you go.

I was under the impression that LIHOP stipulated it was elements within the US government that knew enough of the plot to stop it, but deliberately left it to proceed.

Oh ok, hmm, now its getting difficult. I could say some guy in the goverment heard the story from that armsdealer, but no there is no sense here (because there is no motive for such a guy and why the hell should that armsdealer talk about that anyway?) and the Commission could have found out. (No one would risk this.)

You missed the point entirely. It would be very difficult for the 9/11 Comission to miss such people, whom they were investigating, and who would come forward with such information anyway. Unless the 9/11 Comission was put in place by Bush et.al. with the explicit purpose to fail in it's investigations, then you have to conclude it's findings are largely correct.

No, no, I already understand your argument. I was just trying to build up a possible story, with a knowing guy the commission wouldn't look up. But since LIHOP means that people IN the goverment would have known the plan, this isn't possible. So you are right.

Damn, now I have to look for another stupid theory.
Maybe I should stick with the vulcano theory. Pyroclastic clouds, stuff that floats like lava, big clouds of black smoke, raining ash, sulfur that attacked the steal beams and some people felt the ground shaking (earth quake). This must be the Twoof. ;)

[Thunder]

Maybe I should stick with the vulcano theory. Pyroclastic clouds, stuff that floats like lava, big clouds of black smoke, raining ash, sulfur that attacked the steal beams and some people felt the ground shaking. This must be the Twoof. ;)

its definitely sexier then LIHOP. LIHOP is soo dull and boring.

:D

[gtc]

Instead of asking other people to do your work for you, why don't you present your evidence that US government knew about it but did nothing.

[Horatius]

But it does through most of the "truther" talking points under the bus. Controlled demolition, missiles, shoot downs, fake phone calls and ect, all out the window. Result? Death of the "truth" movement.



It also throws out the vast majority of the Truthers' preferred conspirators. If you do somehow come up with a "One Guy Did It" LIHOP scenario, you then absolve Bush, Cheney, the Israelis, the Neocons, and everybody else.

If That One Guy stopped the flow of information to the people at the top, there's no way those people could have acted to prevent 9/11. You might be able to fault them for employing That One Guy, but that's nothing like the level of culpability the Truthers want to stick Bush et al. with.

[DGM]

Thats perfect. If the Truth Movement wouldn't be already dead, I could demonstrate as a LIHOPer and call every Truther a des-info agent. That would be fun. :D

This sounds like it could be fun. Why don't you start a new thread and make your case? (If your shy PM me and I'll do it)

[Kevin.Silbstedt]

Instead of asking other people to do your work for you, why don't you present your evidence that US government knew about it but did nothing.

Maybe you should have a look at my posts again. I'm not claiming that the LIHOP "Theory" is true. I just tried to come up with a possible version, but I failed. Maybe thats because the desinfo-agent-reptilians in this forum are to good. ;)


Thats perfect. If the Truth Movement wouldn't be already dead, I could demonstrate as a LIHOPer and call every Truther a des-info agent. That would be fun.This sounds like it could be fun. Why don't you start a new thread and make your case? (If your shy PM me and I'll do it)

Oh yeah, it would be fun, if there would still be something you could call a "movement", but there isn't any. I don't know how it's going in the good old USA, but here in Germany nobody gives a **** about the Twoofers and there aren't any demonstrations. Sometimes some retards write crap on walls like "stop NWO" (those are the nuts from "Alles Schall und Rauch" and "Infokrieg", both are like a german version of "infowars" with the same lies), but thats all.

If you still have the chance, go ahead, start your own thread.