What can persuade you that God exists?

[riddle]

Most of the people who don’t believe in God or other divine powers said that there is no proof for such existence – this is their most important argument. And you cannot persuade them in any way that the human is not the beginning and not the end of everything because they need proof, some clear and concrete evidence. And now I ask you those who need this evidence what evidence can persuade you that God exists? But don’t say anything like: “Something that I can see and touch” – this is not concrete answer. You need concrete and clear argument, so tell me clearly what that argument is.

[RoboTimbo]

What convinced you that a god exists?

[That_guy]

Amputees regrowing limbs after praying. The stars randomly rearranging themselves to spell out interesting phrases like "Hey, it's me: God!" and "I'm watching you, That_guy!" Child molesters ceasing to exist retroactively. Disease disappearing retroactively. Talking monkeys (not apes, to be clear-- simians only, thank you.) The list goes on, but I'm sure you get the point.

[JAStewart]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

[Cainkane1]

If you omit something I can feel or touch then nothing will convince me a Diety exists. I'd accept some sort of event that would go against the grain of coincidence. For instance if a person without arms suddenly got his arms back while I watched after he prayed for the return of said limbs then I might be persuaded to believe something in the ether was listening. How about a 5000 year old Egyptian Mummy come back to youthful healthy life after someone prayed for that to happen?

The diety would have to do something, anything extraordinary in my presence me being a few inches away from the event and in such a way that I would know what I was seeing was really happening. Thats not going to happen because there is no god.

[Eyeron]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

And when the evidence is extraordinary then it is too good to be true and therefore must be a hoax.

As far as the op goes, I'd like to see the total cessation of evil and an amputee's appendage regrown without the use of any kind of technology.

[drkitten]

And when the evidence is extraordinary then it is too good to be true and therefore must be a hoax.

Only because it always has been when we've had the chance to examine it. (And most of the time, we haven't even had the chance to examine it.)

Heck, most of the time the evidence hasn't even been extraordinary. If we're talking about YHVH, the omnipotent Abrahamic God, the one who's capable of a creating a forty-day flood that rose to above the top of Mt. Everest, the one who can turn the entire river Nile to blood, and who can literally stop the Sun in its tracks --- the idea that a small group of "prayed-for" heart patients would recover at a rate marginally better than the control group is not especially extraordinary.

How about finishing the Crazy Horse statue overnight?

How about finishing the Crazy Horse statue overnight, then making it get up and ride around for a while?

How about finishing the Crazy Horse statue overnight, then making it get up and ride to Washington DC where it carves John 3:16 into the side of the Washington monument?

I'll happily reconsider my position then.

[uruk]

I don't know what will convince me. But if god is all knowing and knows every intricate detail of me and my personality, He would definitly know exactly what it would take to convince me.

[The Atheist]

Most of the people who don’t believe in God or other divine powers said that there is no proof for such existence – this is their most important argument.

It's the only argument.

Poofters might start philosophical arguments about the logic of god/s and why he/they might be or not be, but the only rational reason to not be a believer is the sheer lack of not just evidence, but also any reasonable support for the idea at all.

And you cannot persuade them in any way that the human is not the beginning and not the end of everything ...

I don't understand this at all - could you have another go at expressing yourself?

What belief is this? I am actually an atheist, and I don't see humans as either the beginning or end of anything, and I don't know anyone else who does either.

Far from persuading me of the belief, you need to persuade me the belief actaully exists!

Is this some kind of new humanist religion I'm unaware of?

...because they need proof, some clear and concrete evidence.

Crikey, mate. If I wanted to sell you a gold mine, I bet you'd want some clear and concrete proof that the gold existed, but you expect me to sign over my immortal soul on the basis of the sales pitch that is christianity?

Jesus!

First off - and totally ignoring all of the other religions in existence - which brand of christianity is the right one for godliness and eternal heavenly joy?

Is it Catholicism with its billion members?
Fred Phelps?
Southern Baptist?

See, I've read this kind of christian guide-book thing called a bible; it says that if I cock up the worship of the god-bloke, I'm screwed! What if I pick the wrong church? Being an atheist, I can only get Purgatory, but if I join the wrong church of my own free will, I could condemn myself to an eternity in Hell! (depending on your current doctrine)

How do I know which mine has the gold in?

I think some kind of proof is fair.

I'm a reasonable bloke, however, and far from concrete or clear proof, I'd just accept the god-thing telling me which church I should go to.

Just that.

And now I ask you those who need this evidence what evidence can persuade you that God exists? But don’t say anything like: “Something that I can see and touch” – this is not concrete answer. You need concrete and clear argument, so tell me clearly what that argument is.

Answered above.

I've kept it nice and simple; these god-things must be kept bloody busy.

Whichever god/s actually exist just needs to come and chat with me on a one-to-one basis and tell me which church to attend. I know hundreds of people who claim to have a personal relationship with god, and while not everyone's that fundy, even the most moderate christian prays, so there's clearly comething to communicate to/with.

[Undesired Walrus]

What could convince you that an invisible teapot exists?

First you need to describe to me what God is.

[Professor Yaffle]

The Toon Army ever winning a trophy again?

[Egg]

The Toon Army ever winning a trophy again?
Does the Championship count as a trophy?

Anyway, I though you guys already believed in god and his name is Alan Shearer :)
or did he fail to demonstrate his omnipotence last season?

[Robin]

And you cannot persuade them in any way that the human is not the beginning and not the end of everything ...
Whoever suggested that humans are the beginning and end of everything?

Certainly no atheist.

Humans are just the merest accidental blip in the middle.
You need concrete and clear argument, so tell me clearly what that argument is.
It seems to me if I had a claim to make then I would know how to back it up.

I wouldn't have to go to other people and ask them what the evidence should be.

Also, all sorts of people come here with all sorts of weird definitions of God - so you should be specific and define the proposition you want us to consider..

If it is just some nebulous concept like "cause of the Universe" or "that, greater than which nothing can be thought" then there is hardly a point in discussing it.

We can hardly be asked to express an opinion on what evidence would convince us if we don't have a clear idea of what we are supposed to be convinced of.

[bokonon]

I think the Bible quotes Jesus as saying something along the lines of "If you silence the people, the stones will begin to shout their praise!" (Luke 19:40). If a pile of rocks came knocking on the door singing "Hark the Herald", I'd scatter the pile to look for hidden speakers, and maybe crack a couple open with a hammer, but once I got down to a singing sandpile, I'd probably be convinced.

If Jesus can't manage the act he's quoted as promising, singing trees would work, but only if they also dance. Too many places to hide a speaker.

If you have some God other than Jesus in mind, please be specific.

[paximperium]

Most of the people who don’t believe in God or other divine powers said that there is no proof for such existence – this is their most important argument. And you cannot persuade them in any way that the human is not the beginning and not the end of everything because they need proof, some clear and concrete evidence. And now I ask you those who need this evidence what evidence can persuade you that God exists? But don’t say anything like: “Something that I can see and touch” – this is not concrete answer. You need concrete and clear argument, so tell me clearly what that argument is.
Beats me. Shouldn't "god" know?

[six7s]

Most of the people who don’t believe in God or other divine powers said that there is no proof for such existence – this is their most important argument. And you cannot persuade them in any way that the human is not the beginning and not the end of everything because they need proof, some clear and concrete evidence. And now I ask you those who need this evidence what evidence can persuade you that God exists? But don’t say anything like: “Something that I can see and touch” – this is not concrete answer. You need concrete and clear argument, so tell me clearly what that argument is.I'm guessing that - for most of those active on this forum - the two highlighted 'groups' are pretty much 'mutually exclusive'

ETA

For example: I don’t believe in any gods I don't need evidence that any gods exist (this isn't to say I'm not curious... far from it... its just I find that everything makes MUCH more sense when myths, legends, superstitions (aka woo beliefs) are omitted from the picture

[padego]

Stop by for a nice chat, maybe dinner, he/she's got some explaining to do.

Oh, and make my mortgage disappear....

[Hux]

The Toon Army ever winning a trophy again?

The Toon Army have won nowt and will win nowt. The team conceivably might. :D

[Professor Yaffle]

Does the Championship count as a trophy?

Anyway, I though you guys already believed in god and his name is Alan Shearer :)
or did he fail to demonstrate his omnipotence last season?

I'm just waiting for the resurrection of Uncle Sir Bobby.


And no the championship doesn't count.

[Hokulele]

... And now I ask you those who need this evidence what evidence can persuade you that God exists? But don’t say anything like: “Something that I can see and touch” – this is not concrete answer. ...


A stroke or some other type of major change to my brain could easily leave me believing some sort of god exists, but would not be convincing to other atheists. This is why objective evidence, "something that I can see and touch", is much more useful.

A signing sandpile would be pretty cool.

[RoboTimbo]

A stroke or some other type of major change to my brain could easily leave me believing some sort of god exists, but would not be convincing to other atheists. This is why objective evidence, "something that I can see and touch", is much more useful.

A signing sandpile would be pretty cool.

If the sandpile used SSL*, that would indeed be impressive.




* Sandpile Sign Language

[drkitten]

I'm guessing that - for most of those active on this forum - the two highlighted 'groups' are pretty much 'mutually exclusive'

ETA

For example: I don’t believe in any gods I don't need evidence that any gods exist (this isn't to say I'm not curious... far from it... its just I find that everything makes MUCH more sense when myths, legends, superstitions (aka woo beliefs) are omitted from the picture

This makes no sense. In order to believe in God, you would need evidence. Without compelling evidence, you will continue not to believe in God.

The problem that little evidence has been forthcoming, and the problem that the evidence that has been forthcoming is far from compelling are not yours, but the theists.

[Howie Felterbush]

How about a driver's license? Or a stack of His old W-2's? Maybe a union card (Deities Local 249)?

[Hokulele]

If the sandpile used SSL*, that would indeed be impressive.




* Sandpile Sign Language


Heh, that would be even more impressive.

Stupid keyboard, output what I mean, not the letters I press in the order I press them!

[paximperium]

"As it is necessary to affix right ideas to words, I will, before I proceed further into the subject, offer some other observations on the word revelation. Revelation, when applied to religion, means something communicated immediately from God to man.

No one will deny or dispute the power of the Almighty to make such a communication, if he pleases. But admitting, for the sake of a case, that something has been revealed to a certain person, and not revealed to any other person, it is revelation to that person only. When he tells it to a second person, a second to a third, a third to a fourth, and so on, it ceases to be a revelation to all those persons. It is revelation to the first person only, and hearsay to every other, and consequently they are not obliged to believe it."
-Thomas Paine, Age of Reason

[six7s]

In order to believe in God, you would need evidencePerhaps...

However, I do not need to believe in any gods

Therfore, I do not need evidence for any gods


If the (my) Universe stops making sense, I might revise my need to believe in a god (this is, I think, a common sequence of events when people are overwhelmed by the ordinary, day-to-day aspects of LTUAE)

[Foster Zygote]

And you cannot persuade them [atheists] in any way that the human is not the beginning and not the end of everything...

Such a belief is not a requirement of atheism. In fact, I have yet to encounter an atheist who believes such a thing. I suppose that if you believe in a hierarchy that places a god or gods at the very top, and perhaps some other supernatural being like angels or djinns just below them, and then humans below them, then one might assume that those who lack belief in the supernatural place humans at the top of a hierarchy. But this assumes that others even subscribe to such an arrangement in the first place.

[HansMustermann]

Most of the people who don’t believe in God or other divine powers said that there is no proof for such existence – this is their most important argument. And you cannot persuade them in any way that the human is not the beginning and not the end of everything because they need proof, some clear and concrete evidence. And now I ask you those who need this evidence what evidence can persuade you that God exists? But don’t say anything like: “Something that I can see and touch” – this is not concrete answer. You need concrete and clear argument, so tell me clearly what that argument is.

Riddle, we're talking a god that's described as omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. In other words, he's already here, he already knows what proof could convince me and what won't, and he _can_ do it. (If there was stuff he can't do, it wouldn't be omnipotent, dont you think?) And it doesn't take him any effort either. (If you could put a finite non-zero amount of time and effort he needs, then another being could be conceived who can do it in half the time or effort. Hence, the absolute supreme power claim would kinda go lost.)

So for a start, I'm not accepting anything that involves "But don’t say anything like..." Why not? He _can_ do whatever I think, can't he?

Really, such a god wouldn't need to send a fundie to tell me why should I believe in him. And he wouldn't need such a question either. If he's omniscient, he already knows the answer.

(And especially I love it when they're essentially telling me, "my god is already here, and he _could_ talk directly to you, and he already knows that my broken arguments aren't the kind that you'll believe... but he wants me to tell you that he loves you." Why? Would god get a nosebleed if he told me that personally? Is god a high-school nerd, or what? Because even by high-school standards, "tell X I love him/her" was considered socially inept and uncool.

I mean, damn, I might even put out if he told me personally that he loves me ;))

But I digress... Anyway, if he wants me to believe, he can jolly well deal with me in person. I mean, he's already here, he already knows it, and he can do it.

Failing that, well some visible and palpable evidence is exactly the thing I'd expect, not more sophistry and fallacies.

[Cleon]

And now I ask you those who need this evidence what evidence can persuade you that God exists?

Shakira and Beyonce falling madly and completely in love with me.

[Hokulele]

And now I ask you those who need this evidence what evidence can persuade you that God exists?


Shakira and Beyonce falling madly and completely in love with Cleon.

[Pure Argent]

Most of the people who don’t believe in God or other divine powers said that there is no proof for such existence – this is their most important argument.

Well, no, not exactly. It is the most important argument because it is the only argument. In the end, all of the arguments against theism boil down to this in the end.

And you cannot persuade them in any way that the human is not the beginning and not the end of everything because they need proof, some clear and concrete evidence.

Which there would be if this was not the case.

And now I ask you those who need this evidence what evidence can persuade you that God exists? But don’t say anything like: “Something that I can see and touch” – this is not concrete answer. You need concrete and clear argument, so tell me clearly what that argument is.

Actually, that is a concrete answer. We need proof - say, Jesus descending from the heavens and turning my Dr. Pepper into wine, then turning my eyesight 20/20 and curing my asthma.
As it is, there is no evidence for a god. What made you decide that there was?

[Foster Zygote]

Shakira and Beyonce falling madly and completely in love with me.

And each other?

[kuroyume0161]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

In this case, I think:

Absolute extraordinary claims require absolute extraordinary evidence.

(To paraphrase and mix in 'power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely'.)

In other words, for something as unimaginable as an extra-universal being claiming absolute powers and creation of the universe it would require one big ***** amazing pile of evidence. ;)

[PingOfPong]

Ahh, a question I've often thought about as an atheiest.

A miracle wouldn't do it for me. How do I know it's not a simple magician's trick? If it's not a magician's trick, how do I know that God did it? For all I know, it could be the work of some alien using advanced technology. Having lived in a mundane world, if I started seeing miracles everywhere then I would start questioning my own sanity. Anyway, I wouldn't respect anyone who wanted to gain my worship with flashy demonstrations of power. All that I need is for God, not some human putting words in God's mouth, to speak to me and give me some insight that I could be sure is godly and not petty. BTW, something like "love me or I will smite thee" is petty not Godly.

I don't think that will ever happen of course.

ETA: I was raised to be a Baptist. I didn't see any evidence for God but I saw plenty of evidence for many people's hysterical need to believe in a God or gods.

[Tormac]

If the history of any major church (pick a religion) seemed to indicate that they were morally superior to the rest of society at the time, I would consider that there may be something to this God thing.

If there is a church today that seemed to me to have a superior sense of morality to society at large, I would consider that there may be something to this god thing.

I don’t expect signs from the heavens; I would consider it a major miracle to find large organized religious groups that seemed to practice what they preach.

[Belz...]

Most of the people who don’t believe in God or other divine powers said that there is no proof for such existence – this is their most important argument.

It's also a very strong argument, considering that we're supposed to expect that God's existence would have some visible effect.

And you cannot persuade them in any way that the human is not the beginning and not the end of everything because they need proof

What is that supposed to mean ?

Bible-thumpers are much more anthropocentric than atheists because, you see, god made them in his image!! They're like gods!!

And now I ask you those who need this evidence what evidence can persuade you that God exists?

Reproducible, objective evidence visible by all, no matter what their beliefs are.


Good luck with that.

[Rasmus]

Most of the people who don’t believe in God or other divine powers said that there is no proof for such existence – this is their most important argument.

You're over-simplifying.

Not only is there no proof of a God, the god-hypothesis is simply not needed to explain anything. (Or rather, those thing that currently lack explanation are not well-explained by assuming a super-natural agent.)

And you cannot persuade them in any way that the human is not the beginning and not the end of everything because they need proof, some clear and concrete evidence.What do you think it means when you say that the human is not the beginning and not the end of everything?

I don't think we are either, but that doesn't change the fact that to accept a hypothesis I need at least a good reason to do so. You're simply trying to argue from ignorance.


And now I ask you those who need this evidence what evidence can persuade you that God exists? But don’t say anything like: “Something that I can see and touch” – this is not concrete answer. You need concrete and clear argument, so tell me clearly what that argument is.How do you define "god"?
To me. it's just an empty word used by arrogant people who cannot admit to themselves or others that there are things they just don't know.

Frankly, I am not sure if it can be done. The Christian God is defined in a way that is self-contradicting. He is not possible at such and he is not compatible with the world we live in. (Theodicy)

I think that the explanation "I must be insane" is always to be preferred to "there is a god". (And that only applies once "I am mistaken" or "I am being deceived" have been ruled out ...)

Of course, your point seems mute to me: Two thousands years (and more) of tremendous effort of some of the best-educated people at their respective time have utterly failed to provide as much as a single, semi-convincing argument.

In that respect, my answer to your question has to be "something from someone a lot smarter than you or me. I doubt you are the smartest individual for the past two millennia and I know I am not." (In other words: Why do you even ask? Even if you received an answer, there is no reason to assume you could possibly deliver the required evidence.)

And a pragmatic answer: Prayer that lets amputees regrow their limps would be a good start; certain vegetation that talks and burns with non-consuming fire would be a nice touch. As of now, the words "I am God and I am most certainly real you arrogant imbecile" fail to appear on my living room wall. I am not even asking they be dripping in blood. (And I *DID* look behind me!)

Finally, I don't think I need to be able to answer your question. Just give me the strongest argument you have, the best proof that exists. If that is not sufficient, I will let you know how it fails. You're putting the cart before the horse, I think. What proof I need has no bearing on the proof that you have. You have what you have, and you cannot engineer better proof that would meet my standards. If you don't have it now, how would you get it upon learning that I'd need it? (Again, after milennia of people trying and failing!) You are assuming that which you seek to prove to be so - and that is invalid. Yes, if there was a God that we could know about, there would be some form of proof that I'd accept. That nobody can provide this proof does not necessarily mean that we haven't looked hard enough, though. It might just mean that the proof does simply not exist - either because there simply is no god, or because he does not want us to have the proof. (And the latter doesn't help your argument either. It's not the kind of God we are talking about, after all. It would by definition not be a smart thing to belive in that kind of god, let alone assume you might be able to provide evidence of its existence.)

[Traveler Steve]

Waking up one morning and having Anna Paquin lying next to- and madly in love with- me would be a nice start! (And not that other Stephen bloke.)

[Pedro De Mello]

If I could get a girlfriend =/

Lol...

I don't know... maybe amputees growing their limbs back would be enough...

[Eyeron]

_rqUsC2KsiI

=4qmcOG-na4E

[JoeTheJuggler]

Most of the people who don’t believe in God or other divine powers said that there is no proof for such existence – this is their most important argument. And you cannot persuade them in any way that the human is not the beginning and not the end of everything because they need proof, some clear and concrete evidence. And now I ask you those who need this evidence what evidence can persuade you that God exists? But don’t say anything like: “Something that I can see and touch” – this is not concrete answer. You need concrete and clear argument, so tell me clearly what that argument is.

Before I could even say what evidence would be needed, I would need a formal definition--a list of all characertistics/properties of the class "God" such that all objects that you mean when you say "God" are included in the class, and all objects that you don't mean when you say "God" are excluded from the class.

If you're dealing with an undefined term, there is no evidence sufficient to persuade me it exists, since I'm not sure what you're even talking about.

[JoeTheJuggler]

And when the evidence is extraordinary then it is too good to be true and therefore must be a hoax.
I think you're confusing a claim with evidence.

As far as the op goes, I'd like to see the total cessation of evil and an amputee's appendage regrown without the use of any kind of technology.
Hmmm. . salamanders can regrow a limb that's been severed. While I understand the point of this argument, I would NOT take a regrown limb as proof of the existence of "God" (whatever that means). Even if it happened in a human, Occam's Razor would suggest a more mundane explanation might be possible. No need to create entities!

[Pure Argent]

If I could get a girlfriend =/

Word.

[Maia]

All that I need is for God, not some human putting words in God's mouth, to speak to me and give me some insight that I could be sure is godly and not petty. BTW, something like "love me or I will smite thee" is petty not Godly.



Well, it wasn't exactly like that... but the closest thing this week for me was probably the day when 99-year-old Miss Ruby (with extremely advanced Alzheimer's) had been plaintively saying "Help me, help me, help me" while sitting around in her wheelchair for eight hours on the secured hall in B wing. (This was occasionally interspersed with "You can just take a pistol and take me out and shoot me if you want." Yes, really. Nobody is really dealing effectively with depression in dementia patients at all.) I finally had a few minutes to sit with her. I gave her a hug and said, "I love you, Miss Ruby." She looked up at me and smiled. "Just keep me under your hands," she whispered.

Extratheists* get these kinds of proofs of extragod's* existence all the time. But when it comes to good old-fashioned theism... not so much. The standards of proof for any kind of God are impossible to begin with, they've never been met, and they never will be.


*I've decided that "extratheism" is going to be my new name for my religion, or the System of Thought Previously Known As Non-Theism. :) Maybe I should start a church... I'll bet I could get tax-free status from the IRS... :rolleyes:

[themusicteacher]

I still don't get why any being such as imagined by the "major monotheistic" religions would not want us to know of it's existence. If it is all-powerful and bent on subjugation of all things, then it most certainly would want us to know who the master is in the most obvious of ways; the vanity of such a being would demand it. If it is all-loving and caring and simply wants us to be happy servants of it's grace, why does it have to play hide-and-seek? Would it not be more unifying to bring together all of your creations if it would just reveal itself and tell us all, point blank, why we are here and what we are to do with our short time on Earth? That such an ostensibly powerful being has not, in some tangible way, revealed himself to be real creates such a deafening silence.

[The Shrike]

Would it not be more unifying to bring together all of your creations if it would just reveal itself and tell us all, point blank, why we are here and what we are to do with our short time on Earth?

Because it's brilliantly designed such that faith is the greatest virtue. We are expected to believe - no matter what - and our faith will be rewarded (maybe) on the other side. Lacking in faith? That's easy - pray for faith. As a lifelong Catholic I can tell you that we're expected to pray to increase our faith, every day. The decline in the culture of daily prayer is hugely important in the decline of Catholicism in the U.S. - more so I'd wager than the sex abuse scandals.

[PingOfPong]

Those of you who would switch if you saw an amputee regrow a limb are setting the metaphysical bar extremely low. Not that long ago it was considered a miracle when Jesus allegedly made the blind see. Well, medicine can do that in some cases now. It's not impossible that regrowing limbs in spectacular ways will become common in the future.

I don't need proof to believe in God. How can you prove that the proof is really proving God? All I need to believe in God is a sensible reason for it. A sensible reason would be proof all by itself. There is no absolutely sensible reason for it and I don't expect one will ever be forthcoming. Also, if God could give me a reason it should probably include an explanation of why Alzheimer's patients need to suffer in the first place.

[Lothian]

And now I ask you those who need this evidence what evidence can persuade you that God exists? But don’t say anything like: “Something that I can see and touch” – this is not concrete answer. Something that I can see and touch.

Why is that not a concrete answer? The only way that is a false answer is if God is unable to do that. Most definitions of God give him the ability to appear in the flesh if he wants to.

What you are really wanting to know is 'What evidence short of actual evidence would you accept as proof God exists?' or 'What is the least crappy evidence you will accept?'

[Marduk]

Most of the people who don’t believe in God or other divine powers said that there is no proof for such existence – this is their most important argument. And you cannot persuade them in any way that the human is not the beginning and not the end of everything because they need proof, some clear and concrete evidence. And now I ask you those who need this evidence what evidence can persuade you that God exists? But don’t say anything like: “Something that I can see and touch” – this is not concrete answer. You need concrete and clear argument, so tell me clearly what that argument is.

I do believe in God
I just don't believe in yours
:p

[not daSkeptic]

And now I ask you those who need this evidence what evidence can persuade you that God exists?

Quite simple really. Show me God. Feeling his presence or anecdotes about his impact on people's lives just doesn't cut it. There are too many other possibilities. If you want to convince people, produce God.

[godofpie]

If Shakira and Beyonce dumped Cleon for me. (Come on god! What's he got that I don't have!?!?)

[The Atheist]

Hit & run troll.

Worked

[Robin]

Because it's brilliantly designed such that faith is the greatest virtue. We are expected to believe - no matter what - and our faith will be rewarded (maybe) on the other side. Lacking in faith? That's easy - pray for faith. As a lifelong Catholic I can tell you that we're expected to pray to increase our faith, every day. The decline in the culture of daily prayer is hugely important in the decline of Catholicism in the U.S. - more so I'd wager than the sex abuse scandals.
I note that the fastest growing religion in the world requires prayer a number of times each day.

But if it so brilliantly designed that faith is the greatest virtue why is faith itself more powerful and important that what you have faith in?

[surrogate]

I think a pallet or two of $100 bills spontaneously appearing in my living room and the ability to fly would be enough for me.

[Robin]

Hit & run troll.

Worked
I have never quite worked out the psychology of that.

Do they have good intentions of staying the course and arguing the toss and then get cold feet?

Or did they expect us to say "wow, I never thought of it that way, I'd better go to church!" after one post?

[bookitty]

Having proof of god would be the worst thing imaginable. You certainly couldn't respect any deity that was petty enough to make itself known. But there he/she/it would be, radiating godliness and expecting some sort of recognition. Based on the popular literature, it most certainly wouldn't be satisfied with "Oh, very nice. How God of you." So we'd be stuck with some preening omniscient twit. And who's got time for that?

[Robin]

Or, third possibility.

They snip out all the lighthearted answers and then quote them in Christian forums saying "you see, atheists won't even question their own beliefs"

[figarot]

Amputees growing back their limbs wouldn't make me believe in God but they'd make be believe some of what David Icke's on about, as I've seen lizards do something similar.

As a child I would have a go at believing in God, if only for a moment, if I turned a corner and found my life in immediate danger (gangs of bored snot-nosed/split lip punks; or a very angry parent).

Now, I don't mind either way if he exists or not, he doesn't seem to mind this...

[ve2vfd]

People can imagine gods all they want, but until he/she/it appears before me it doesn't exist.

The only thing that would convince me god, santa claus, the easter bunny or an honest politician exists would be to see it with my own 2 eyes. To me any "god has to exist because XXX reasons" arguments is nothing more than mental masturbation.

Pat

[jadey]

God's autobiography.

[lionking]

You there riddle?

[jadey]

To me any "god has to exist because XXX reasons" arguments is nothing more than mental masturbation.


... which can lead to blindness :)

[Maia]

I wonder if riddle is ever coming back. It doesn't look too hopeful so far.

I'm working out the details of the theology of extratheism, but so far, I've got this...

Quite simple really. Show me God. Feeling his presence or anecdotes about his impact on people's lives just doesn't cut it. There are too many other possibilities. If you want to convince people, produce God.

Well, God was nowhere to be seen. But I touched Miss Ruby's shoulders and she was quiet, and looked up at me with the glad eyes of a child. When I look around the entire table at lunch and Mr. Croker is trying to eat his bib again, and Miss Zile is trying to eat mashed potatoes with a straw, and Miss Lee is trying to drink her fruit salad, and Miss Geraldine always forgets what a fork is when it's halfway to her mouth... you get the idea... I just feel love for them. I love all my Alzheimer's residents so much and I could never explain it. And this kind of love, whoever feels it, is the truth of what people have called God at its very best. It doesn't point to God or prove God, because there is no external God; it is itself God. That's extratheism. :)

So the answer is that there's nothing that could persuade me that "God exists". The only answer to the riddle of why God would stand by and allow evil and suffering is that God is not some kind of almighty being external to us all, God is not sitting around up in the sky and waiting to answer prayers if they're correctly addressed to him, and no, as a matter of fact, God does not "exist."

I may start a thread about defining the theology of extratheism. :) Would anybody be interested?

[Cleon]

If Shakira and Beyonce dumped Cleon for me. (Come on god! What's he got that I don't have!?!?)

Hey!!! Get your own proof!

[Ron_Tomkins]

Most of the people who don’t believe in God or other divine powers said that there is no proof for such existence – this is their most important argument. And you cannot persuade them in any way that the human is not the beginning and not the end of everything because they need proof, some clear and concrete evidence. And now I ask you those who need this evidence what evidence can persuade you that God exists? But don’t say anything like: “Something that I can see and touch” – this is not concrete answer. You need concrete and clear argument, so tell me clearly what that argument is.

Pretty much the same thing that would convince you that the big talking dragon from the movie "Dragonheart" exists.

In other words, some extraordinary evidence for an extraordinary claim.

[ugot2bekidding]

Because it's brilliantly designed such that faith is the greatest virtue.

I don't understand how faith can be a virtue. Believing in something you don't have proof for is, at best, wishful thinking and delusional.

[tyr_13]

God would have to 'magically' make me accept that he exist and is god. If he exists and is god, this would be trivial.

Even a non-god could conceivably do this.

[Soapy Sam]

My criteria are getting stricter.
Less than 8 years ago, I would have credited as divine anyone who could get a wifi network to work on a Win98 PC, an XP box, a Linux distro and a Mac. But I saw it done yesterday, AT THE FIRST ATTEMPT!, so I guess the Age of Miracles is not yet over.

[The Shrike]

I don't understand how faith can be a virtue.
Then you obviously lack ultimate earthly authority to do whatever you want because that power has been given to you by God. If you had that authority, you'd be very interested in convincing your fearful subjects that faith is exceedingly virtuous in God's eyes.

[The Atheist]

I have never quite worked out the psychology of that.

Do they have good intentions of staying the course and arguing the toss and then get cold feet?

Or did they expect us to say "wow, I never thought of it that way, I'd better go to church!" after one post?

Nah, I think it's like some teenage christian dare thing.

Go and be somewhere where atheists hang out. How tough is that bloke?

Or, third possibility.

They snip out all the lighthearted answers and then quote them in Christian forums saying "you see, atheists won't even question their own beliefs"

That's the most likely one. "Nothing less than an amputee growing back a limb will do! These atheists want a showman as god". They could probably work randi into it somewhere.

[kerikiwi]

My criteria are getting stricter.
Less than 8 years ago, I would have credited as divine anyone who could get a wifi network to work on a Win98 PC, an XP box, a Linux distro and a Mac. But I saw it done yesterday, AT THE FIRST ATTEMPT!, so I guess the Age of Miracles is not yet over.

I credit as divine anyone who understands what you are talking about.

[JoeTheJuggler]

I credit as divine anyone who understands what you are talking about.
Well. . I'm not so good at the water in to wine bit, but I understood it.

Gettiing these various OSs to cooperate on a network is difficult. It was meant as humor and a bit of well turned but gentle, IMO, mocking at the expense of the OP.

The conceit was to trivialize something that the OP thought of as a very serious thing. (Treating as a "miracle" a difficult networking problem.) It reminds me of a Woody Allen bit (not an exact quote--just my memory): "I sometimes lie awake at night and wonder if there's an afterlife. I'm so full of questions. Is there a God? Will there be a Last Judgment? Will I see my departed loved ones? Does heaven exist, and if it does can they change a fifty?"

[Seismosaurus]

Most of the people who don’t believe in God or other divine powers said that there is no proof for such existence – this is their most important argument. And you cannot persuade them in any way that the human is not the beginning and not the end of everything because they need proof, some clear and concrete evidence. And now I ask you those who need this evidence what evidence can persuade you that God exists? But don’t say anything like: “Something that I can see and touch” – this is not concrete answer. You need concrete and clear argument, so tell me clearly what that argument is.

Take the prayer studies that keep showing that prayer has no effect on whether sick people get better. Imagine if when we started doing those studies, it turned out that when believers in a particular god pray for the recovery of other believers in that god, then they did indeed recover at far above normal rates. Imagine that this effect was very clear, and that many, many studies of the effect were done by many different scientists and confirmed the effect every time. Further suppose that the effect only worked for believers in a particular god, but not for any other.

Imagine that this effect kept being confirmed, no matter how the studies were refined and adjusted, over a period of decades.

Personally, that would do it for me. Although I can imagine other explanations, in all honesty I'd have to say that that would move me to a position of "this god exists unless you can give me proof otherwise."

So I would become a believer. Not, however, a worshipper. I can imagine nothing that would make me worship any god.

[arthwollipot]

It amazes me that this comes up over and over again, and we nonbelievers have to post the same answers over and over again. It's almost like the believers think that we haven't ever thought about it before. I for one am getting a little tired of it.

[ZeroTheory]

There is a problem with it. Say suddenly miracles began to happen, and all sorts of godly related behavior begain occuring; could you rule out advanced alien life being the cause? If some god did reveal itself to us, how would we know there is only one? Would it prove there is an afterlife?

[Roboramma]

It amazes me that this comes up over and over again, and we nonbelievers have to post the same answers over and over again. It's almost like the believers think that we haven't ever thought about it before. I for one am getting a little tired of it.

My third grade teacher said the same thing when I asked her a question about a problem I had with long division.

[The Atheist]

There is a problem with it. Say suddenly miracles began to happen, and all sorts of godly related behavior begain occuring; could you rule out advanced alien life being the cause? If some god did reveal itself to us, how would we know there is only one? Would it prove there is an afterlife?

Good questions.

No.

We wouldn't.

No.

[drkitten]

Those of you who would switch if you saw an amputee regrow a limb are setting the metaphysical bar extremely low. Not that long ago it was considered a miracle when Jesus allegedly made the blind see. Well, medicine can do that in some cases now. It's not impossible that regrowing limbs in spectacular ways will become common in the future.

At which point, the "evidence" of a limb regrowing will no longer be extraordinary, and God will have missed His chance to pick that particular low-hanging fruit.

The standards of what constitute a "miracle" according to the Catholic church have been changing over time as our understanding of the world and of technology change. Miraculous healing from diseases used to be an instant ticket to sainthood; now the Catholic church (not being full of idiots) insists on ruling out medical intervention before they declare a miraculous healing.

So God's already lost out on several low-hanging fruits; a hundred years ago, He could have miraculously wiped out polio and everyone would have been impressed. Now we're doing it, the hard way, and there's not that much room for Him.

[drkitten]

I don't understand how faith can be a virtue. Believing in something you don't have proof for is, at best, wishful thinking and delusional.

Wrong-o. At worst, it's wishful thinking and delusional. At best, it's called "confidence" and "having the courage of your convictions."

By definition, anyone who tries to do something for the first time believes, without proof, that it can be done. A medical student stays on her feet for the third consecutive day because she believes, without proof, that she will eventually become a doctor and that passing medical school is a necessary step. A graduate student proposes a thesis topic because he believes, without proof, that he will be able to complete the necessary research, write the necessary thesis, and receive the degree.

Heck, every time you get in your car, you only are able to do that because you believe, without proof, that you will not die horribly in a wreck on your way to the destination. If you only believed things that you could PROVE, you'd never do anything at all.

[fuelair]

Most of the people who don’t believe in God or other divine powers said that there is no proof for such existence – this is their most important argument. And you cannot persuade them in any way that the human is not the beginning and not the end of everything because they need proof, some clear and concrete evidence. And now I ask you those who need this evidence what evidence can persuade you that God exists? But don’t say anything like: “Something that I can see and touch” – this is not concrete answer. You need concrete and clear argument, so tell me clearly what that argument is.

There is no "concrete and clear argument" for any physical/real thing - if it esists, words can't make it not exist; if it doesn't exist, words can't make it exist. Only concrete physicality can prove the existance of something. Second, though I could be wrong, I do not remember any of us saying humans were either the beginning or the end of anything, much less everything. Most of us know we are neither.

[Fishstick]

Long form birth certificate and Orly's legal representation.

[Evolved Wookie]

I cannot think of any evidence for which the more likely explanation is not that I am either being swindled, or that I have gone mad. (Of course, if I've gone mad, I might believe that God exists anyway, but that wouldn't make me objectively correct.)

Having said that, if God exists, surely he is capable of conceiving and providing just such evidence without my advice. He's God, after all - notionally rather a clever chap. Just because I find the idea of such evidence impossible doesn't mean that an omnipotent creature with my best interests at heart can't generate it with a click of his fingers (or hooves, claws, tentacles, noodles, whatever).

[ve2vfd]

I think the consensus is that anything short of an actual god showing up and saying "Hi I'm god" is a total fail... (and no Georges Burns or Morgan Freeman showing up isn't gonna cut it! :) )

So in short the answer is no... nothing you can SAY will prove the existence of a god. Only god appearing before me would prove the existence of god.

Pat

[Last of the Fraggles]

I don't think there is any single piece of evidence that would convince me of any God as there would always be another more likely explanation. Even is someone grew back an amputated limb I would assume it was a natural freakish occurence over God.

There really is nothing that could prove God.

There certainly are though many things that could be used as evidence in his favour. Get enough of these things together and I might start to see it as reasonable for others to believe in God.

Until then, we have exactly zero evidence of the existence of God and much evidence that all existing religions are false.

[Eyeron]

Also, just because God does show up is no guarantee I'll get down on my knees and worship him or her as they case may, not without a very long talk on what the Bible really means, and how much truth is there in it, and how much of it is actually just stuffy old men using it to manipulate people to serve them, and not god.

if I absolutely had to, I will not serve a deity out of fear.

[riddle]

So, many people gave much evidence that would persuade them of God’s existence. Many of them said that if there was God he would have persuaded them in the best way because he would have known how to do that. But does God need to persuade you? Why does God persuade you? Doesn’t anyone ask himself that question? In that way God would be something like a feudal, you would be aware of his presence and because of that you will obey to him but it would be some kind of forcible obedience and where there is violence there is no love. But you know that God must be loved in other way you have no God, for there might be God but without genuine love you cannot perceive that and for you there is no God. For the people before 1000 years there was no Pluto (the planet) because they hadn’t got a telescope, so if in your occasion genuine love and faith are the telescope you will see God if you have them and if you haven’t you will not. This doesn’t mean some blind faith of a zealot or a common Christian or Muslim or Buddhist who simply acquired his religion by inheritance. Rather it means that you must have doubts in the beginning in order to acquire real knowledge, but it also means not to ascribe everything only to the visible things, for they are only phenomena. I am not here trying to convince you that God exists, because I am not a missionary but I want you to think is there something that might you force to believe in God. The one answer is - NO. God must not be a clown or some kind of an illusionist to create for you the curious things you want, if you want that go and see David Copperfield. For those who want a special revelation from God – do you really believe that you can be just lying in the bed with laziness and God would reveal to you because God randomly chose you for his revelation. Don’t you think that the more logical thing is to struggle for something and then obtain it than to do nothing and to be given with it? So nothing from the outside can persuade you, it can only help you to think over. The real persuasion and conviction can be created only inwardly, the outward world can only be a catalyst for you.

[Hokulele]

... The real persuasion and conviction can be created only inwardly...


... and is often called self-delusion.

[Ladewig]

And now I ask you those who need this evidence what evidence can persuade you that God exists?

Short answer: The same thing that it would take for you to believe that Zeus is the most powerful deity in existence.

[Eyeron]

Also, one question I like to ask theists is this:


"So what if God came down, proved beyond the shadow of a doubt he was god by doing things Satan is unable to do, and then told you that the bible is a false book full of lies written by men to manipulate other men. Would you stop following the book?"

The short answer is no, they will not believe him even if he does prove beyond the shadow of a doubt he is god.

[Correa Neto]

What would persuade me?

Dying and after the the tunnel of light (or something similar), finding some god at the other side, which would start explaining the things I want to know about itself and the Universe. This would have to last long enough for me to conclude I'm not just experiencing some hallucination created by the last pulses of activity from my dying oxigen-deprived brain.

Or Shakira and Beyonce desperately wanting to have lots of sex with me. Note that it would be just sex. They can still be in love with Cleon. No problem with that.

[ReFLeX]

So, many people gave much evidence that would persuade them of God’s existence. Many of them said that if there was God he would have persuaded them in the best way because he would have known how to do that. But does God need to persuade you? Why does God persuade you? ... I am not here trying to convince you that God exists, because I am not a missionary but I want you to think is there something that might you force to believe in God. The one answer is - NO. God must not be a clown or some kind of an illusionist to create for you the curious things you want, if you want that go and see David Copperfield. For those who want a special revelation from God – do you really believe that you can be just lying in the bed with laziness and God would reveal to you because God randomly chose you for his revelation. Don’t you think that the more logical thing is to struggle for something and then obtain it than to do nothing and to be given with it? So nothing from the outside can persuade you, it can only help you to think over. The real persuasion and conviction can be created only inwardly, the outward world can only be a catalyst for you.
But how do YOU know so much about God? Where did you get your information about God from?

[paximperium]

The real persuasion and conviction can be created only inwardly, the outward world can only be a catalyst for you.
I call this self delusion and making crap up.

Sorry, but the "you must first believe before you can believe" nonsense is one of the stupidest arguments around, coming from Christian, Muslim, Buddhist or Scientologists.

[PingOfPong]

I am not here trying to convince you that God exists, because I am not a missionary

Don't be disingenuous. You won't fool anyone. You asked a specific question to non-believers. The direction you want it to lead is clear.

God must not be a clown or some kind of an illusionist to create for you the curious things you want, if you want that go and see David Copperfield.

Then God doesn't work as advertised by the faithful (I already knew that of course). Christians are the ones who talk about the splendor of their alleged miracles and the power of prayer.

But does God need to persuade you?

If God wants me to believe in him then yes.

[Pure Argent]

So, many people gave much evidence that would persuade them of God’s existence. Many of them said that if there was God he would have persuaded them in the best way because he would have known how to do that. But does God need to persuade you?

If he wants me to believe, then yes.

Why does God persuade you? Doesn’t anyone ask himself that question? In that way God would be something like a feudal, you would be aware of his presence and because of that you will obey to him but it would be some kind of forcible obedience and where there is violence there is no love. But you know that God must be loved in other way you have no God, for there might be God but without genuine love you cannot perceive that and for you there is no God. For the people before 1000 years there was no Pluto (the planet) because they hadn’t got a telescope, so if in your occasion genuine love and faith are the telescope you will see God if you have them and if you haven’t you will not. This doesn’t mean some blind faith of a zealot or a common Christian or Muslim or Buddhist who simply acquired his religion by inheritance. Rather it means that you must have doubts in the beginning in order to acquire real knowledge, but it also means not to ascribe everything only to the visible things, for they are only phenomena. I am not here trying to convince you that God exists, because I am not a missionary but I want you to think is there something that might you force to believe in God. The one answer is - NO. God must not be a clown or some kind of an illusionist to create for you the curious things you want, if you want that go and see David Copperfield. For those who want a special revelation from God – do you really believe that you can be just lying in the bed with laziness and God would reveal to you because God randomly chose you for his revelation. Don’t you think that the more logical thing is to struggle for something and then obtain it than to do nothing and to be given with it? So nothing from the outside can persuade you, it can only help you to think over. The real persuasion and conviction can be created only inwardly, the outward world can only be a catalyst for you.

Russell's Teapot.

[Belz...]

But does God need to persuade you?

Well, yeah. That's the whole point. Otherwise I'd also believe in Zeus.

But you know that God must be loved in other way you have no God, for there might be God but without genuine love you cannot perceive that and for you there is no God.

Love is a biological thing. Is god a biological organism ?

God must not be a clown or some kind of an illusionist to create for you the curious things you want

He might want to start by being a scientist and get his facts straight.

Don’t you think that the more logical thing is to struggle for something and then obtain it than to do nothing and to be given with it?

The burden of proof is on the claimant.

The real persuasion and conviction can be created only inwardly

Sorry, that only works for magical thinking.

[Ladewig]

For the people before 1000 years there was no Pluto (the planet) because they hadn’t got a telescope, so if in your occasion genuine love and faith are the telescope you will see God if you have them and if you haven’t you will not.

This is a bad analogy. If someone has a telescope and can see Pluto, then he can describe the method for making a telescope and explain where to point the telescope. Many posters on the JREF have spent enough time listening to telescope viewers to find the search unfruitful. Furthermore, even the people with the telescopes cannot agree on what they are seeing. The Baptists use their telescopes to see a place where dancing and drinking alcohol are forbidden. The Roman Catholics say their telescopes work, but never as well as the Pope's telescope.


For those who want a special revelation from God – do you really believe that you can be just lying in the bed with laziness and God would reveal to you because God randomly chose you for his revelation. Don’t you think that the more logical thing is to struggle for something and then obtain it than to do nothing and to be given with it?

"The logical thing is to struggle for something"? No. There is no logic in your speculation about how you expect things to be. You have no evidence that what you describe is an accurate summation of God's beliefs.

[PingOfPong]

do you really believe that you can be just lying in the bed with laziness and God would reveal to you because God randomly chose you for his revelation.

I want to add a question for you: What makes you think any of us are lazy? I'm not trying to flap my arms and fly to the moon either but it has nothing to do with laziness.

[The Atheist]

So, ... wall of text removed ... you.

If you want people to read your arguments, let alone embrace them, for christ's sake learn to use paragraphs.

[paximperium]

I want to add a question for you: What makes you think any of us are lazy? I'm not trying to flap my arms and fly to the moon either but it has nothing to do with laziness.
I don't wake up before noon on Sundays.

[maatorc]

Most of the people who don’t believe in God or other divine powers said that there is no proof for such existence – this is their most important argument. And you cannot persuade them in any way that the human is not the beginning and not the end of everything because they need proof, some clear and concrete evidence. And now I ask you those who need this evidence what evidence can persuade you that God exists? But don’t say anything like: “Something that I can see and touch” – this is not concrete answer. You need concrete and clear argument, so tell me clearly what that argument is.

"GOD" is a word we use to denote ALL THAT IS. It does not require proof.
You choose to define it according to what you are.
It necessarily follows that "WE" are unseparated segments of whatever the "ONE ONLY" is!
If we get it wrong in our understanding of GOD, it does not in any way change what or how GOD IS!

[drkitten]

"GOD" is a word we use to denote ALL THAT IS.

Not if you use the word according to its dictionary definition, it isn't.

Now, granted, you can use the word "rosebush" to denote the little metal thing with a rooster on it at the top of buildings that tells you which way the wind is blowing.

But for those of us who actually use words according to their common meaning, you're simply using the word wrongly. That's a "weathervane," not a "rosebush." And no amount of fuzzy thinking on your part will turn it into a rosebush.

[Fat Bottom Gurl]

If you want people to read your arguments, let alone embrace them, for christ's sake learn to use paragraphs.

Thank you.

[Hux]

.......So rather than be just another mindless religious robot, mindlessly and aimlessly and blindly believing that all of this is in the hands of some spooky incompetent father figure who doesn't give a ****, I decided to look around for something else to worship. Something I could really count on.

And immediately, I thought of the sun. Happened like that. Overnight I became a sun-worshipper. Well, not overnight, you can't see the sun at night. But first thing the next morning, I became a sun-worshipper. Several reasons. First of all, I can see the sun, okay? Unlike some other gods I could mention, I can actually see the sun. I'm big on that. If I can see something, I don't know, it kind of helps the credibility along, you know?

The late, great George Carlin.

[JoeTheJuggler]

I confess I haven't kept up with this thread. Has Riddle ever offered a definition of "God" so that we could even attempt to provide an answer to his or her question?

[kuroyume0161]

.......So rather than be just another mindless religious robot, mindlessly and aimlessly and blindly believing that all of this is in the hands of some spooky incompetent father figure who doesn't give a ****, I decided to look around for something else to worship. Something I could really count on.

And immediately, I thought of the sun. Happened like that. Overnight I became a sun-worshipper. Well, not overnight, you can't see the sun at night. But first thing the next morning, I became a sun-worshipper. Several reasons. First of all, I can see the sun, okay? Unlike some other gods I could mention, I can actually see the sun. I'm big on that. If I can see something, I don't know, it kind of helps the credibility along, you know?

The late, great George Carlin.

George Carlin was a genius and wish he was still around to make people laugh and think.

[ugot2bekidding]

Wrong-o. At worst, it's wishful thinking and delusional. At best, it's called "confidence" and "having the courage of your convictions."

By definition, anyone who tries to do something for the first time believes, without proof, that it can be done. A medical student stays on her feet for the third consecutive day because she believes, without proof, that she will eventually become a doctor and that passing medical school is a necessary step. A graduate student proposes a thesis topic because he believes, without proof, that he will be able to complete the necessary research, write the necessary thesis, and receive the degree.

Heck, every time you get in your car, you only are able to do that because you believe, without proof, that you will not die horribly in a wreck on your way to the destination. If you only believed things that you could PROVE, you'd never do anything at all.

I don't think your analogies are relevant to my point. I was referring to faith in a religious context. In other words, belief in an extraordinary claim...i.e. that God exists. When I get into a car I have definite proof that it's possible to survive because I have survived many such trips before. While there is no guarantee, I know that it's possible, and even likely that I will survive. The same goes for your med school analogy...there is definite proof that it's possible to graduate from such a school, so the med student's confidence is justified.

My problem with faith in a religious context is that it's basically a shutting down of the critical thought process. I don't see that as a virtue.

[Maia]

Oh, come on. We do have to at least give riddle some credit for coming back. ;) Not a lot, mostly because of the insane-drivel quality of it all, but still, some.

[drkitten]

I don't think your analogies are relevant to my point. I was referring to faith in a religious context. In other words, belief in an extraordinary claim...i.e. that God exists.

... as opposed to belief in an extraordinary claim.... i.e. that atoms, which are by definition indivisible, can be split?

Basically, I just wanted to get it on record that you are painting with a large and indefensibly broad brush. If your definition of "faith" is "any kind of belief of which there is less than perfect proof but of which I nevertheless disapprove," then it's your perogative to Humpty-Dumpty the language around.

But it's also my perogative to point out what you're doing, and that this particular emperor has no clothes.

[HansMustermann]

So, many people gave much evidence that would persuade them of God’s existence. Many of them said that if there was God he would have persuaded them in the best way because he would have known how to do that. But does God need to persuade you? Why does God persuade you? Doesn’t anyone ask himself that question?

Nice trolling, but _you_ asked what would persuade us. It's not like any of us were sitting around going, "man, I wish some kind of God would talk to us."

The whole thing revolves essentially around that same "if". _If_ God wants me persuaded then he knows what to do. If he _doesn't_ care about whether I'm persuaded or not, then obviously that's that too, and I'll stay non-persuaded and an atheist. And the idiot fundies can leave me alone in that case too, since obviously their God doesn't care about that.

But either way, decide which scenario you want.

In that way God would be something like a feudal, you would be aware of his presence and because of that you will obey to him but it would be some kind of forcible obedience and where there is violence there is no love. But you know that God must be loved in other way you have no God, for there might be God but without genuine love you cannot perceive that and for you there is no God. For the people before 1000 years there was no Pluto (the planet) because they hadn’t got a telescope, so if in your occasion genuine love and faith are the telescope you will see God if you have them and if you haven’t you will not. This doesn’t mean some blind faith of a zealot or a common Christian or Muslim or Buddhist who simply acquired his religion by inheritance. Rather it means that you must have doubts in the beginning in order to acquire real knowledge, but it also means not to ascribe everything only to the visible things, for they are only phenomena. I am not here trying to convince you that God exists, because I am not a missionary but I want you to think is there something that might you force to believe in God. The one answer is - NO. God must not be a clown or some kind of an illusionist to create for you the curious things you want, if you want that go and see David Copperfield. For those who want a special revelation from God – do you really believe that you can be just lying in the bed with laziness and God would reveal to you because God randomly chose you for his revelation. Don’t you think that the more logical thing is to struggle for something and then obtain it than to do nothing and to be given with it? So nothing from the outside can persuade you, it can only help you to think over. The real persuasion and conviction can be created only inwardly, the outward world can only be a catalyst for you.

Nice rant, but no banana.

It depends on entirely too many hypotheticals and handwaving. And you can know an argument is silly when you could replace random imaginary entities in it instead of God, and it would be just as bogus.

Maybe the FSM is a medieval lord and, bla, bla, bla, you have to persuade yourself from within. Maybe my imaginary cat is a medieval lord and , bla, bla, bla, you have to persuade yourself from within. Maybe Santa Claus is like a medieval lord, except pure love (otherwise he wouldn't bring you presents), bla, bla, bla, , you have to persuade yourself from within.

Heh.

Plus, really, why would I want to convince myself to believe in a bogus idiocy that isn't supported by anything whatsoever?

And if I were in the mood for such self-delusional exercises, why would I choose your particular fairy tale? Why not persuade myself from within to believe in Thor, or some gnostic heresy, or the Jedi mythos, or the Tooth Fairy, or that Snow White is the messiah? (Hey, don't knock Seven Dwarf Adventism until you've tried it;)) Or maybe I'll invent my own fairy tale an found the Roman CocaColic Church. Or go fanfic from an existing character and found Onan's Witnesses. What's so special about your fairy tale that, if I were in a mood to actively delude myself, you think I'd choose _that_?

[Toke]

As a teenager I decided to get a religion and picked the Norse goods.
I immediately ran into the problem of evidence and internal consistency in the story, and abandoned the project.

[ve2vfd]

The late, great George Carlin.

I miss that man SO much... :( He was a breath of fresh air in a world of woowoo.

Pat

[maatorc]

Not if you use the word according to its dictionary definition, it isn't.

Now, granted, you can use the word "rosebush" to denote the little metal thing with a rooster on it at the top of buildings that tells you which way the wind is blowing.

But for those of us who actually use words according to their common meaning, you're simply using the word wrongly. That's a "weathervane," not a "rosebush." And no amount of fuzzy thinking on your part will turn it into a rosebush.

Which dictionary definition are referring to?
As to paragraphs 2 and 3, they are, as you well know, fuzzy garbage.

[RandFan]

Amputees regrowing limbs after praying.Exactly. I'd be interested in any statistically significant correlation between praying and healing (low end p=.05 and high end p=.1).

Now, if prayer consistently correlated to healing by say p=5 then I would likely believe (I'm talking broad range of disease and infliction including cancer, heart disease, etc.). I'd have a lot of questions but I'd likely believe. Now, I'm not sure at what point I'd get on board. Somewhere between .1 and 5 but certainly by 5 there would be no question. Now, I'm not saying a single study. I'm talking about peer reviewed, multi replicated studies.

[PingOfPong]

you can know an argument is silly when you could replace random imaginary entities in it instead of God, and it would be just as bogus.


That's a good point. I wonder what riddle's post would look like if we did a simple word switch.

So, many people gave much evidence that would persuade them of Bigfoot's existence. Many of them said that if there was a real Bigfoot he would have persuaded them in the best way because he would have known how to do that. But does Bigfoot's need to persuade you? Why does Bigfoot persuade you? Doesn’t anyone ask himself that question? In that way Bigfoot would be something like a feudal, you would be aware of his presence and because of that you will obey to him but it would be some kind of forcible obedience and where there is violence there is no love. But you know that Bigfoot must be loved in other way you have no Bigfoot, for there might be Bigfoot but without genuine love you cannot perceive that and for you there is no Bigfoot. For the people before 1000 years there was no Pluto (the planet) because they hadn’t got a telescope, so if in your occasion genuine love and faith are the telescope you will see Bigfoot if you have them and if you haven’t you will not. This doesn’t mean some blind faith of a zealot or a common Christian or Muslim or Buddhist who simply acquired his religion by inheritance. Rather it means that you must have doubts in the beginning in order to acquire real knowledge, but it also means not to ascribe everything only to the visible things, for they are only phenomena. I am not here trying to convince you that Bigfoot exists, because I am not a missionary but I want you to think is there something that might you force to believe in Bigfoot. The one answer is - NO. Bigfoot must not be a clown or some kind of an illusionist to create for you the curious things you want, if you want that go and see David Copperfield. For those who want a special revelation from Bigfoot – do you really believe that you can be just lying in the bed with laziness and Bigfoot would reveal to you because Bigfoot randomly chose you for his revelation. Don’t you think that the more logical thing is to struggle for something and then obtain it than to do nothing and to be given with it? So nothing from the outside can persuade you, it can only help you to think over. The real persuasion and conviction can be created only inwardly, the outward world can only be a catalyst for you.



So, how about it? Do you now believe in the gentle yet powerful Bigfoot? Don't worry if you don't believe in Bigfoot. Bigfoot believes in you.


Exactly. I'd be interested in any statistically significant correlation between praying and healing (low end p=.05 and high end p=.1).

Now, if prayer consistently correlated to healing by say p=5 then I would likely believe (I'm talking broad range of disease and infliction including cancer, heart disease, etc.). I'd have a lot of questions but I'd likely believe. Now, I'm not sure at what point I'd get on board. Somewhere between .1 and 5 but certainly by 5 there would be no question. Now, I'm not saying a single study. I'm talking about peer reviewed, multi replicated studies.

You could come and kneel before me to pray for health and it would work. The reason is that I would take you to the free clinic every time you did it. It may not improve everyone's health but it would be statistically significant. Miracles really aren't all that miraculous even if they exist.

[Tricky]

As a teenager I decided to get a religion and picked the Norse goods.
I immediately ran into the problem of evidence and internal consistency in the story, and abandoned the project.

"Gimme that ol' time religion
Gimme that ol' time religion
Gimme that ol' time religion
It's good enough for me

We shall drink a toast to Loki
He's the old Norse god of chaos
Which is why this verse doesn't rhyme or scan or anything
But it's good enough for me"

[RoboTimbo]

So, fundie nonsense I got nothin' but I believe in it and you should too.

Fixed.

[fromdownunder]

But does God need to persuade you? Why does God persuade you? Doesn’t anyone ask himself that question?

OK, I'll play with the moving goalposts.

Why does God pursuade some people and not others? And it seems to me, that at best no more 16% of people now living will actually make it to New Jerusalem (IF the Roman Catholics are right) and maybe only two or three if Kurius Kathy is right.

So, why does your God (whatever you think He is) pursuade some, and totally ignore others? Why does he decide that other reigions, or Amerindians, Australian Aborigines, Pacific Islanders etc. who never heard "the word" prior to European conquest go to hell? What about the Chinese, Japanese, Indians, Vietnamese, etc... who never heard of Jesus go to hell?

The point is, if God exists, then:

1. He does not want me and chose me to go to Hell on Day One
2. He has some secret plan to "convert" me in the future.
3. He is just a prick playing games - and pre-selected best case 84% of us to be super-crispie-to-be non believers

In any event, I can do nothing about the outcome - Pascal got that completely utterly incredibly dopily wrong - so I just prefer to live honestly, and not in fear of any potential afterlife. Life IS too short....

Norm

[kerikiwi]

So, many people gave much evidence that would persuade them of God’s existence. Many of them said that if there was God he would have persuaded them in the best way because he would have known how to do that. But does God need to persuade you? Why does God persuade you? Doesn’t anyone ask himself that question? In that way God would be something like a feudal, you would be aware of his presence and because of that you will obey to him but it would be some kind of forcible obedience and where there is violence there is no love. But you know that God must be loved in other way you have no God, for there might be God but without genuine love you cannot perceive that and for you there is no God. For the people before 1000 years there was no Pluto (the planet) because they hadn’t got a telescope, so if in your occasion genuine love and faith are the telescope you will see God if you have them and if you haven’t you will not. This doesn’t mean some blind faith of a zealot or a common Christian or Muslim or Buddhist who simply acquired his religion by inheritance. Rather it means that you must have doubts in the beginning in order to acquire real knowledge, but it also means not to ascribe everything only to the visible things, for they are only phenomena. I am not here trying to convince you that God exists, because I am not a missionary but I want you to think is there something that might you force to believe in God. The one answer is - NO. God must not be a clown or some kind of an illusionist to create for you the curious things you want, if you want that go and see David Copperfield. For those who want a special revelation from God – do you really believe that you can be just lying in the bed with laziness and God would reveal to you because God randomly chose you for his revelation. Don’t you think that the more logical thing is to struggle for something and then obtain it than to do nothing and to be given with it? So nothing from the outside can persuade you, it can only help you to think over. The real persuasion and conviction can be created only inwardly, the outward world can only be a catalyst for you.

If you used paragraphs and properly constructed sentences I might begin to think there is a god --- any god would do!


So, why do you believe in Zeus? Or, if you do not believe in Zeus, but have chosen another god, why?

[drkitten]

Which dictionary definition are referring to?

Random House is pretty good:

God  [god] –noun
1. the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe.


As to paragraphs 2 and 3, they are, as you well know, fuzzy garbage.

Oh, don't limit yourself. All four paragraphs of your post were fuzzy garbage.

[RandFan]

But does God need to persuade you?No. But if he has expectations of me and wants to judge me based on those expectations and he doesn't then he is not a reasonable god.

Don’t you think that the more logical thing is to struggle for something and then obtain it than to do nothing and to be given with it? I did struggle. I spent much of my formative years and young adulthood studying the Bible and praying. I fasted. Once for several days. I begged god to give me an answer. I attended religious study for 4 years. For awhile I convinced myself that god had given me an answer. So I went on a two year mission that I largely paid for myself.

So nothing from the outside can persuade you, it can only help you to think over. The real persuasion and conviction can be created only inwardly, the outward world can only be a catalyst for you.There's a term for this. Self delusion. All religions/faiths/beliefs/sects rely on this.

[Richard S]

Most of the people who don’t believe in God or other divine powers said that there is no proof for such existence – this is their most important argument.




Stop right there. No one is putting words in your mouth, yet you put them in ours. There are many atheists / agnostics / free thinkers who don't seek or require (or even care about) proof, they just don't care to include God in their belief system, for their own personal reasons.

Let's say, you were to admit that you're Baptist. What would it take to convince you that your religion is wrong and, perhaps, the Mormons are the one sect that has the true pipeline to God?

Answer me that one. That would get my attention. Perhaps help me understand what you're really on about.

[Olowkow]

To me it is a nonsense question, and gods that impose their influence on the universe at the behest of humans, are in principle an impossible concept, or at best an illogical and unreasonable notion. It just does not compute as a reasonable question, sort of like, what would convince you that "colorless green ideas can sleep furiously"?

It is all mass insanity, and reminiscent of the child's invisible friend. We'd be better off asking what it would take to believe in our fellow man.

[edge]

To quote Marilyn Adamson


I was an atheist at one time. And like many atheists, the issue of people believing in God bothered me greatly. What is it about atheists that we would spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting something that we don't believe even exists?! What causes us to do that? When I was an atheist, I attributed my intentions as caring for those poor, delusional people...to help them realize their hope was completely ill founded. To be honest, I also had another motive. As I challenged those who believed in God, I was deeply curious to see if they could convince me otherwise. Part of my quest was to become free from the question of God. If I could conclusively prove to believers that they were wrong, then the issue is off the table, and I would be free to go about my life.
I didn't realize that the reason the topic of God
weighed so heavily on my mind, was because God was pressing the issue. I have come to find out that God wants to be known. He created us with the intention that we would know him. He has surrounded us with evidence of himself and he keeps the question of his existence squarely before us. It was as if I couldn't escape thinking about the possibility of God. In fact, the day I chose to acknowledge God's existence, my prayer began with, "Ok, you win..." It might be that the underlying reason atheists are bothered by people believing in God is because God is actively pursuing them.

All of it is what I though too, in all ways she describes since I was too.

This seems to true because you all are in here twenty four seven.
She give six good reasons as to why god exists.

Want the link?

[edge]

I have been thinking along these lines.
Richard Feynman, a Nobel Prize winner for quantum electrodynamics, said, "Why nature is mathematical is a mystery...The fact that there are rules at all is a kind of miracle."12

[RoboTimbo]

To quote Marilyn Adamson
<snipple>
She give six good reasons as to why god exists.

Want the link?

I would prefer compelling evidence to links or personal reasons. You could help riddle out a great deal by supplying said evidence for him/her. If you're wanting to keep on topic, that is.

[RandFan]

This seems to true because you all are in here twenty four seven. Religion impacts my life. If people who believed in leprechauns were serving as president, in congress, heads of state around the world, on school boards, knocking on my door and trying to get the theory of pot 'o gold at the end of the rainbow taught in schools then I'd be here talking about leprechauns.

[JoeTheJuggler]

Just checking in again. Has Riddle still made no attempt at defining the term "God"? (Judging by what people are saying, it doesn't look like it.)

[edge]

There is a story told of an old farmer who lived by himself in a cabin. Next to his cabin was a barn. One very cold wintry night, birds began to crash into the windows of his warm cabin, trying to escape the deadly cold. So the old man went outside and opened the barn door. It was warm inside the barn. He waved his arms and shouted at the birds to go into the barn, into safety. But they did not understand him.
It was then that the old man wished that he could become one of them. If he could become a bird, then he could lead the other birds into the barn, to avoid death. And at that moment the old farmer understood why Jesus had come. Though the old man could not become a bird, God could become a man. So he did. "For God so loved the world that he sent his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:16).

[RandFan]

I have been thinking along these lines.

Richard Feynman, a Nobel Prize winner for quantum electrodynamics, said, "Why nature is mathematical is a mystery...The fact that there are rules at all is a kind of miracle."12

Feynman, a genius, didn't believe in god.

There was a time when rain was a mystery. Some said "god did it".
There was a time when the motion of the sun was a muster. There was a time when rain was a mystery.
There was a time when the mechanics of plants was a muster. There was a time when rain was a mystery.
None of these are answers. They just replace the mystery of nature with the mystery of god.

"God did it" tells us absolutely nothing.

[Hokulele]

You would think that waving and shouting at birds would scare them away from the barn, while leaving them the heck alone would be far more effective.

[edge]

So far no life on Mars none on the moon, probably none on any other moons, probably none in the solar system.

I would have to say that so far the evidence is all the abundant life on this planet.
All the love that ever was and is yet to come, all of life is part of the Father.

If this planet was tweeked just a little, there would be none here, it is perfection to the highest degree.

[kerikiwi]

There is a story told of an old farmer who lived by himself in a cabin. Next to his cabin was a barn. One very cold wintry night, birds began to crash into the windows of his warm cabin, trying to escape the deadly cold. So the old man went outside and opened the barn door. It was warm inside the barn. He waved his arms and shouted at the birds to go into the barn, into safety. But they did not understand him.
It was then that the old man wished that he could become one of them. If he could become a bird, then he could lead the other birds into the barn, to avoid death. And at that moment the old farmer understood why Jesus had come. Though the old man could not become a bird, God could become a man. So he did. "For God so loved the world that he sent his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:16).

There is also a story told of a little girl going to grandma's house and meeting a big bad wolf.
How does your story prove the existence of a deity any more than Little Red Riding Hood?

[edge]

You would think that waving and shouting at birds would scare them away from the barn, while leaving them the heck alone would be far more effective.

You missed the point of the story.
His presents in the house didn't stop them from trying to enter the house.
I am sure he left the door open and went back in the house.

[Olowkow]

God kills his kid, now you are warm a fuzzy. Huh? None of this stuff makes any sense at all. Ritual cannibalism..., cutting body parts off to please some imaginary dickhead, no thanks, anyone who really reads this stuff has to be sickened by it.

[Toke]

"Gimme that ol' time religion
Gimme that ol' time religion
Gimme that ol' time religion
It's good enough for me

We shall drink a toast to Loki
He's the old Norse god of chaos
Which is why this verse doesn't rhyme or scan or anything
But it's good enough for me"
:D
A pantheon with gods who are not omni anything, have disagreements, enemies and shifting alliances appear far less incredible than the christian one.

It is quite hard to imagine what kind of evidence a omnipotent god have so far not provided for his/her existence. If one imagine one that needs/want interaction with humans it is rather silly not to at least spread the word to all and then judge them on their gullibility.

[RandFan]

All the love that ever was and is yet to come, all of life is part of the Father. Much of it bleak and cruel. Suffering. Death. Disease. Inhumanity.

My message to Father.

hk41Gbjljfo

[Hokulele]

You missed the point of the story.
His presents in the house didn't stop them from trying to enter the house.
I am sure he left the door open and went back in the house.


You missed the point of my post. A kludgy solution isn't a good solution.

[edge]

You know why communism didn't work don't you?

Because the atheists that started it didn’t pray.
And this, “God views your relationship with him as permanent. Referring to all those who believe in him, Jesus Christ said of us, "I know them, and they follow me; and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand."

[Skeptic Ginger]

Most of the people who don’t believe in God or other divine powers said that there is no proof for such existence – this is their most important argument. And you cannot persuade them in any way that the human is not the beginning and not the end of everything because they need proof, some clear and concrete evidence. And now I ask you those who need this evidence what evidence can persuade you that God exists? But don’t say anything like: “Something that I can see and touch” – this is not concrete answer. You need concrete and clear argument, so tell me clearly what that argument is.
This is a backward straw man. The evidence is overwhelming gods are mythical beings humans invented. I'm not looking for proof gods don't exist, I'm looking at the evidence and it is clear where it leads.

If I produced a living breathing fairy that you could thoroughly examine, I do believe I could convince more than one rational person that fairies existed. But in the meantime, one can look at the evidence and easily conclude fairies are fictional characters. It's the same with gods.

[RandFan]

You know why communism didn't work don't you?

Because the atheists that started it didn’t pray.And the rest of the people around the world in failed governments?

People in Africa are dying in large numbers. They are dying from murder, AIDS, water born diseases and mosiqto born diseases. There are Christians. Many of them there. Praying isn't helping.



...

I won't believe in heaven and hell. No saints, no sinners, no
Devil as well. No pearly gates, no thorny crown. You're always
Letting us humans down. The wars you bring, the babes you
Drown. Those lost at sea and never found, and it's the same the
Whole world 'round. The hurt I see helps to compound that
Father, Son and Holy Ghost is just somebody's unholy hoax,
And if you're up there you'd perceive that my heart's here upon
My sleeve. If there's one thing I don't believe in

It's you....

[edge]

As a former atheist, Marilyn Adamson found it difficult to refute the continuously answered prayers and quality of life of a close friend. In challenging the beliefs of her friend, Marilyn was amazed to learn the wealth of objective evidence pointing to the existence of God. After about a year of persistent questioning, she responded to God's offer to come into her life and has found faith in Him to be constantly substantiated and greatly rewarding.

I have watched this happen over and over again.

[edge]

And the rest of the people around the world in failed governments?

People in Africa are dying in large numbers. They are dying from murder, AIDS, water born diseases and mosiqto born diseases. There are Christians. Many of them there. Praying isn't helping.

Really, I suppose they aren't able to bring to them not one of their needs?

Your not seeing the bigger picture Randy.
Their prayers bring what they can, most of it in donation form.
Can you tell me what they are praying for?

[Robin]

For those who want a special revelation from God – do you really believe that you can be just lying in the bed with laziness and God would reveal to you because God randomly chose you for his revelation.
No, because I don't believe in God, so I don't think God is going to reveal to me whatever I do.
Don’t you think that the more logical thing is to struggle for something and then obtain it than to do nothing and to be given with it?
If there is no God then you would be struggling for nothing - a complete waste of time.

So the logical thing is not to struggle for something if we have absolutely no reason for thinking that there is something to struggle for.

There are plenty of worthwhile things to struggle for.

[Foster Zygote]

So far no life on Mars none on the moon, probably none on any other moons, probably none in the solar system.

I would have to say that so far the evidence is all the abundant life on this planet.
All the love that ever was and is yet to come, all of life is part of the Father.

If this planet was tweeked just a little, there would be none here, it is perfection to the highest degree.

We've barely begun to look. For you to declare the universe sterile save for the Earth because you have yet to find life on the small handful of worlds on which we've made but the most fleeting of examinations seems a laughably premature speculation when one considers that we have found strong evidence that virtually every star has a system of planets. You've basically just said "I glanced at a few of them and didn't see anything so I conclude that the other trillions of worlds are empty as well".

[RandFan]

I have watched this happen over and over again.Anecdotal.

Society without God: What the Least Religious Nations Can Tell Us About Contentment (http://www.amazon.com/Society-without-God-Religious-Contentment/dp/0814797148)

Scandinavians are not religious. Many are atheists. They are ranked among the highest quality of life.

Africans and Filipinos are very religious and are ranked among the lowest.

[Marduk]

There is a story told of an old farmer who lived by himself in a cabin. Next to his cabin was a barn. One very cold wintry night, birds began to crash into the windows of his warm cabin, trying to escape the deadly cold. So the old man went outside and opened the barn door. It was warm inside the barn. He waved his arms and shouted at the birds to go into the barn, into safety. But they did not understand him.
It was then that the old man wished that he could become one of them. If he could become a bird, then he could lead the other birds into the barn, to avoid death. And at that moment the old farmer understood why Jesus had come. Though the old man could not become a bird, God could become a man. So he did. "For God so loved the world that he sent his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:16).

Hes having a go at the birds now (Brian 5:11)
:D

[RandFan]

Really, I suppose they aren't able to bring to them not one of their needs?Scandanavians don't pray and they do fine.

Can you tell me what they are praying for?Why would they not pray for what they need like you or I or anyone else would?

You are moving goal posts and falling for the prayer illusion (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk6ILZAaAMI). See you can get the exact same results by praying to a jug of milk. That theory is empirical and can be tested.

[edge]

We've barely begun to look. For you to declare the universe sterile save for the Earth because you have yet to find life on the small handful of worlds on which we've made but the most fleeting of examinations seems a laughably premature speculation when one considers that we have found strong evidence that virtually every star has a system of planets. You've basically just said "I glanced at a few of them and didn't see anything so I conclude that the other trillions of worlds are empty as well".

No, what I said it has to be a specal place and so far it is a rare occurence, it has too be a perfect set up.

So far no other planet has been found around a star other that gas giants.
Only life so far here on this one.

[Sun Countess]

For those who want a special revelation from God – do you really believe that you can be just lying in the bed with laziness and God would reveal to you because God randomly chose you for his revelation. Don’t you think that the more logical thing is to struggle for something and then obtain it than to do nothing and to be given with it? So nothing from the outside can persuade you, it can only help you to think over. The real persuasion and conviction can be created only inwardly, the outward world can only be a catalyst for you.

PingofPong already made the point I wanted to make with his Bigfoot post, but why would I or anyone else "struggle" to find God? What would even prompt me to believe in some magic man in the sky with varying degrees of superpowers depending on which god you're claiming? I'm not going to "struggle" to find a magic man in the sky who created some big picture, any more than I would struggle to find pixies, fairies, or leprechauns responsible for hiding my car keys or pulling petals off my flowers. I really don't understand this need that some people have to credit mundane earthly things to supernatural beings at either end of the spectrum.

Edge, do you have any evidence of your particular god character? Beyond the fact that his imaginary existence makes you feel special, I mean. (He LOVES you!) I'm guessing your religious beliefs have allowed you to gloss over all the rape, misogyny and genocide attributed to him, but maybe you've got some excuses we've never heard before.

[RandFan]

So far no other planet has been found around a star other that gas giants.Science predicts that life is rare throughout the universe because the universe (ostensibly made by god) is so hostile to life. The Earth is also hostile to life. Most of the Earth is inhabitable.

[edge]

Scandanavians don't pray and they do fine.

Why would they not pray for what they need like you or I or anyone else would?

You are moving goal posts and falling for the prayer illusion (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk6ILZAaAMI). See you can get the exact same results by praying to a jug of milk. That theory is empirical and can be tested.

Well I didn't know there where Christian Scandinavians in Africa praying for them, that changes everything since they are all atheists.


Jezz if you don't believe and pray to a jug of milk yes the out come is the same, if you go in with doubt then you won't get what you are looking for?

[Robin]

She give six good reasons as to why god exists.

Want the link?
Absolutely.

[RandFan]

Well I didn't know there where Christian Scandinavians in Africa praying for them, that changes everything since they are all atheists.

Scandanavians don't pray and they (Scandanavians) do just fine.

Jezz if you don't believe and pray to a jug of milk yes the out come is the same, if you go in with doubt then you won't get what you are looking for?

Pick 100 random Christians (have them pray to god for 1 year).
Pick 100 random Atheists (have them pray to a jug of milk for 1 year).

Both will have their prayers answered the same.

Or try this.

I'll give you 100 names and tell you of their situation and you pick out the Christians from the Atheists.

No matter how you try it, it always works the same.

[RandFan]

Nothing fails like prayer.
Use your mind and you will find
Nothing fails like prayer.

The farmers pray for precipitation,
And they say, "In God We Trust."
Then along comes a drought and dries their crops out
And turns their prayers into dust.
The next time they need some assistance,
They should take the advice of Mark Twain,
Who said, "It's better to check the weather report
Before you pray for rain."

[Robin]

You know why communism didn't work don't you?

Because the atheists that started it didn’t pray.
Yup, that was the reason it didn't work.

I can't see any other reason why a command economy centrally managed by a top-heavy unelected bureaucracy would not work.

If only they had prayed.

[RoboTimbo]

Well I didn't know there where Christian Scandinavians in Africa praying for them, that changes everything since they are all atheists.


Jezz if you don't believe and pray to a jug of milk yes the out come is the same, if you go in with doubt then you won't get what you are looking for?


What would convince you that your god doesn't exist?

[Robin]

As a former atheist, Marilyn Adamson found it difficult to refute the continuously answered prayers and quality of life of a close friend. In challenging the beliefs of her friend, Marilyn was amazed to learn the wealth of objective evidence pointing to the existence of God. After about a year of persistent questioning, she responded to God's offer to come into her life and has found faith in Him to be constantly substantiated and greatly rewarding.
I have watched this happen over and over again.
Why don't you just supply some of this wealth of objective evidence?

It might have to be just a little better than saying there is no life on the two closest bodies in space.

[RandFan]

Yup, that was the reason it didn't work.

I can't see any other reason why a command economy centrally managed by a top-heavy unelected bureaucracy would not work.

If only they had prayed.

Uganda prays (http://images.google.com/images?q=uganda%20violence&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&oe=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi).

Rawanda prays (http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&safe=off&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&resnum=0&q=rwanda%20violence&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi).

Somalia Prays. (http://images.google.com/images?q=somalia%20violence&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&oe=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi)

You know, it's very insulting to the victims of this violence to say to them that failed governments are the result of not praying.

[edge]

PingofPong already made the point I wanted to make with his Bigfoot post, but why would I or anyone else "struggle" to find God? What would even prompt me to believe in some magic man in the sky with varying degrees of superpowers depending on which god you're claiming? I'm not going to "struggle" to find a magic man in the sky who created some big picture, any more than I would struggle to find pixies, fairies, or leprechauns responsible for hiding my car keys or pulling petals off my flowers. I really don't understand this need that some people have to credit mundane earthly things to supernatural beings at either end of the spectrum.

Edge, do you have any evidence of your particular god character? Beyond the fact that his imaginary existence makes you feel special, I mean. (He LOVES you!) I'm guessing your religious beliefs have allowed you to gloss over all the rape, misogyny and genocide attributed to him, but maybe you've got some excuses we've never heard before.

You are looking in the wrong place, look within.
What you claim to be mundan is not to some one who truly needs.
God is all around us within us, he is life.
Randy crys about all the bad that has happened, but gives no thanks that he has been spared all that he claims to be bad about God.
Much of what has happened to the Hebrews and what they were told to do to others may not have been all from God.

The Bible teachs that their are others that influence us and apperently them.

So you want to judge Gods motives?

That's up to you.

The Hebrews weren't perfect and fell. So they were influnced even after proof.

I would have to think that Christ showed us what he is really about.

[RandFan]

The bell rang twice at Sago Baptist Church Wednesday (http://www.wvgazette.com/News/TheSagoMineDisaster/200601050040).

Shortly after midnight, it pealed to announce miraculous news — after almost two days underground, 12 miners had been found alive. But the miracle turned out to be too good to be true, and only one man, 26-year-old Randal McCloy, survived. He was in critical condition Wednesday night.
Before they found out that the information was wrong most were praising god and prayer.

Nothing fails like prayer.

[edge]

Yup, that was the reason it didn't work.

I can't see any other reason why a command economy centrally managed by a top-heavy unelected bureaucracy would not work.

If only they had prayed.

Yes like in this country.
What they really wanted was religion and a better government, One like ours.
Now they are able because once you are his he won't let you go, it took a while.

[RandFan]

The Bible teachs that their are others that influence us and apperently them.The Bible teaches not to touch women during their menstrual cycles, to sacrifice animals, kill witches, stone adulterers and lots of other very foolish nonsense.

So you want to judge Gods motives? If there were a god he would stand condemned.

The Hebrews weren't perfect and fell. So they were influenced even after proof.According to the Bible it was god who condoned slavery and didn't bother to tell anyone to boil their water. He did tell people not to eat pork....

I would have to think that Christ showed us what he is really about.Take no thought of the morrow. Don't invest. Don't secure your future. Leave your family.

[edge]

What would convince you that your god doesn't exist?

The devil.

[RandFan]

What they really wanted was religion and a better government, One like ours.Many hellhole nations have religion.

You are cherry picking your data.


Now they are able because once you are his he won't let you go...
I'm sure the Christians dying en masse in Africa are ever so happy.

[RoboTimbo]

The devil.

How would a devil do that?

[RandFan]

The devil. So no evidence could ever convince you?

[RandFan]

How would a devil do that?It's rhetorical. Edge is saying that he could only be decieved into believing that god didn't exist.

[RoboTimbo]

It's rhetorical. Edge is saying that he could only be decieved into believing that god didn't exist.

I know but I want to know specifically how he thinks a devil would deceive him.

So Edge, how about it?

[edge]

You seem to think like many what Gods' plans are for people, how could you know that?


You're being fooled like them.

[RandFan]

You seem to think like many what Gods' plans are for people, how could you know that?Moving the goal posts.

Edge: If you pray god will bless you.
RF: Scandinavians don't pray they are blessed.
RF: Many Africans pray. Many of them are not blessed.
Edge: God works in mysterious ways.

[RoboTimbo]

You seem to think like many what Gods' plans are for people, how could you know that?


You're being fooled like them.

Not sure who or what that was directed at but I'll ask you the same thing. How could you know what a god thinks?

[Foster Zygote]

No, what I said it has to be a special place and so far it is a rare occurrence, it has too be a perfect set up.

So far no other planet has been found around a star other that gas giants.
Only life so far here on this one.

Come on, Edge. You keep claiming to be so scientifically literate, yet you constantly make statements that demonstrate your ignorance of science.

Do you know why we've mainly (but not exclusively) found gas giants? It's because the techniques that are available to us right now are so crude that they have difficulty detecting much more than large planets. With a few exceptions we can't easily directly image them yet, so we have to rely on indirect means of detection. The remarkable thing is that even with the limited means currently available we see planets virtually everywhere we are capable of observing. As of today there are 405 cataloged extra-solar planets. The most distant yet detected is about 17,000 light years away, but most are much closer, within a few hundred parsecs (about 3.26 light years). To put that into perspective, the Milky Way is around 100,000 light years in diameter.

If the Earth was different, it might be sterile. But then biologist didn't anticipate the discovery of bacteria living in water at 400 degrees C. But with the likelihood that there are hundreds of billions, if not trillions of planets available in this galaxy alone (there are hundreds of billions of galaxies) it becomes a matter of "it was bound to happen somewhere". If only a single person purchases a lottery ticket, the probability of him winning the jackpot is extremely slim. Even if he plays the lottery every week for his entire life, the odds are so far against him that he is very unlikely to win at any point in his life, even if he lives to be a hundred. But when you have hundreds of millions of people purchasing lottery tickets every week the probability that someone will win the lottery gets pretty likely.

[Foster Zygote]

Yes like in this country.
What they really wanted was religion and a better government, One like ours.
Now they are able because once you are his he won't let you go, it took a while.

You are still ignoring the fact that certain countries that have a (subjectively) better form of government, but very little religion as a matter of choice, rank among those nations with the highest standards of living in the world.

[edge]

I know but I want to know specifically how he thinks a devil would deceive him.

So Edge, how about it?

To believe everything you put on the board as an atheist who hasn't found God.
That inner voice that you listen to that tells you there is no God, then there's the one that is yours and there's one in there that tells you the right things to do which may make you morally correct, but your works are not enough.

[maatorc]

Random House is pretty good:

God  [god] –noun
1. the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe.

2. Oh, don't limit yourself. All four paragraphs of your post were fuzzy garbage.

1. I will accept that one: In that context GOD IS THE UNIVERSE.
There is nothing else!

2. And you and me and you and me, etc for ever Amen. Get real.

[RandFan]

To believe everything you put on the board as an atheist who hasn't found God.
That inner voice that you listen to that tells you there is no God, then there's the one that is yours and there's one in there that tells you the right things to do which may make you morally correct, but your works are not enough.Reason tells me there is no god.

Your threats of violence or whatever you think losing salvation means is childish.

[Foster Zygote]

To believe everything you put on the board as an atheist who hasn't found God.
That inner voice that you listen to that tells you there is no God, then there's the one that is yours and there's one in there that tells you the right things to do which may make you morally correct, but your works are not enough.

That inner voice is called my brain.

[RandFan]

1. I will accept that one: In that context GOD IS THE UNIVERSE.We already have a name for the Universe. It's, "universe".

[RoboTimbo]

To believe everything you put on the board as an atheist who hasn't found God.
That inner voice that you listen to that tells you there is no God, then there's the one that is yours and there's one in there that tells you the right things to do which may make you morally correct, but your works are not enough.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. Can you clarify? What is it that a devil would do to make you disbelieve in a god?

[edge]

If the Earth was different, it might be sterile. But then biologist didn't anticipate the discovery of bacteria living in water at 400 degrees C.

Ya but that's here on this planet, the point is on this planet.
They have been able to detect smaller rocky bodys around stars.

None of this is proof of life but there could be.
So that requires faith be cause of the probability.
Kind of works that way for God eh?

[edge]

Moving the goal posts.

Edge: If you pray god will bless you.
RF: Scandinavians don't pray they are blessed.
RF: Many Africans pray. Many of them are not blessed.
Edge: God works in mysterious ways.

You know this personally?
How many?

[RandFan]

You know this personally?The Christian missions tell us that it is true (http://www.google.com/search?q=african+christian+ministries&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=&oe=). Should we not trust them?

How many? God only works by majority vote?

[RandFan]

None of this is proof of life but there could be.
So that requires faith be cause of the probability.
Kind of works that way for God eh? I don't have faith in life on other planets. I only think it is a possibility. It's an emperical question.

I think god is a possibility but god isn't an emperical question.

[edge]

Scandinavians don't pray they are blessed.

So there is no crime there, no corruption, no drug abuse, no scandals, none of them pray and there is no religion there.

Then you basically state they are all blessed, so there are no poor there, is that right?

So lets see a country about the size of what Indiana?
Has none of the above including rape and all those other bad attributes that humans have and do in their society?

But they do have a higher standard of living, what does that mean exactly, they make more money?

So they must believe in money?

Come on!!!!

[Foster Zygote]

If the Earth was different, it might be sterile. But then biologist didn't anticipate the discovery of bacteria living in water at 400 degrees C.

Ya but that's here on this planet, the point is on this planet.
They have been able to detect smaller rocky bodys around stars.

None of this is proof of life but there could be.
So that requires faith be cause of the probability.
Kind of works that way for God eh?

Again you display your profound ignorance of science.

Probabilities are not faith. It does not take faith to say "Based on what we know of astrophysics and biology there is nothing to indicate that life cannot have evolved on worlds other than the Earth. Let's see if we can find any". The search for possible life on other worlds in this solar system is based on scientific knowledge. Considerations of the probability of life around other stars are based on scientific knowledge. Your assertion that the Earth is special in its support of life is demonstrably based on ignorance.

[RandFan]

So there is no crime there, no corruption, no drug abuse, no scandals, none of them pray and there is no religion there.

Hold on. Was there no succesful people in Communist Russia? No happiness? No honest police or people? No one in Communist Russia ever prayed?

Hold on. So there is no crime in America, no corruption, no drug abuse, no scandals, ALL Americans pray and there are no atheists there?

Could you be just a little bit consistent?


But they do have a higher standard of living, what does that mean exactly, they make more money?

So they must believe in money?

Come on!!!!
COME ON!!!!!

You claim there is some means to determine the efficacy of prayer and I demonstrate that there is none.

I've no problem with you beliving in god but don't expect nonsense to be excused.

[edge]

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. Can you clarify? What is it that a devil would do to make you disbelieve in a god?

The same as he has done to you.
You can ansewer your own question.

Because I have been where your at right now.

[Foster Zygote]

But they do have a higher standard of living, what does that mean exactly, they make more money?
No Edge, it means that the vast majority of them live healthy, safe, long lives. It means that they don't have to worry about huge percentages of their population being cut down by AIDS, dysentery or malaria. It means that they don't have to worry about some homicidal, genocidal warlord's army of AK-47 wielding pre-teen boys driving over the horizon one day to slaughter and rape everyone they can lay their hands on in their town. It means that they don't have to worry about being arrested in the middle of the night for no stated reason and indefinitely imprisoned and brutally tortured. It means that Scandinavian women don't have to hold their children in their arms as they die of starvation because the local criminal despots would rather plunder their treasuries than care for their own people.

[edge]

Again you display your profound ignorance of science.

Probabilities are not faith. It does not take faith to say "Based on what we know of astrophysics and biology there is nothing to indicate that life cannot have evolved on worlds other than the Earth. Let's see if we can find any". The search for possible life on other worlds in this solar system is based on scientific knowledge. Considerations of the probability of life around other stars are based on scientific knowledge. Your assertion that the Earth is special in its support of life is demonstrably based on ignorance.

You are the ignorant one since you missed the point I was making maybe you should re-read what I said.

You need to consider these points as well.
Quote:
The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter. Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.

Edited for Rule 4. The rest of the quote can be found here: http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html

That's just a few.


Perfect!

I now grow tired of your ignorance.

[kerikiwi]

The same as he has done to you.
You can ansewer your own question.

Because I have been where your at right now.

Can you give us any good evidence that this devil exists outside your imagination?

[edge]

No Edge, it means that the vast majority of them live healthy, safe, long lives. It means that they don't have to worry about huge percentages of their population being cut down by AIDS, dysentery or malaria. It means that they don't have to worry about some homicidal, genocidal warlord's army of AK-47 wielding pre-teen boys driving over the horizon one day to slaughter and rape everyone they can lay their hands on in their town. It means that they don't have to worry about being arrested in the middle of the night for no stated reason and indefinitely imprisoned and brutally tortured. It means that Scandinavian women don't have to hold their children in their arms as they die of starvation because the local criminal despots would rather plunder their treasuries than care for their own people.

So it's men not God except the malaria bit.
Then again I don't think they have to worry about that too much considering where they are located.


It's about men in this country too, politics.

Funny how fast things can deteriate caused by men.

It's not about works if you seek God.

He has left much to us for now, apperently these men are atheists wouldn't you think?
They don't believe either.

What should we do ...lets see should we bomb them too?

[edge]

Can you give us any good evidence that this devil exists outside your imagination?


Have you ever done anything bad?
After listing to your mind?
Or did something else change it.
To do good?
Are not you torn in the middle?
Till you make that decision.

Who is the guy/gal in the middle?

Who are the two on the left and the right?

Who is the guy/gal in the middle?

The war in your mind is the war of principalities.

If you listen to the good then you already have found something, but I know the guy in the middle wants’ the credit, so you fall anyway, that’s pride and atheism.

The devil is smart.
Who do you think those voices are?
Certainly it isn’t the guy in the middle.


Good Night.

[PingOfPong]

What would convince you that your god doesn't exist?
The devil.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. Can you clarify? What is it that a devil would do to make you disbelieve in a god?
The same as he has done to you.
You can ansewer your own question.

Because I have been where your at right now.

Wow, what a flashback. I remember being told the exact same thing when I was a kid and after I had started asking too many questions. My spiritual elders basically told me that the devil was in me and making me think things. Boy, that one kept me up late at night for a while.

Eventually I realized that my doubts were honest and fair. If the devil was making those thoughts then he was honest and fair too but that shouldn't be possible. How could the prince of lies put a cogent thought into my head that makes sense to me despite my constant scrutiny of it? It makes more sense that the thoughts are my own and the devil is just a device to scare people back into the faith by promising eternal hell fire for even thinking of a doubt.

Edge, did you ever read the Screwtape Letters? Some of the book deals with the demon agent named Wormwood testing his victims' faith by pointing out the hypocrisy of Christians and Christianity. You could strip the book down if you changed the Wormwood character to a human critic, took out the parts where Wormwood is asking for advice from his hell boss, and then removed the later parts where wormwood pushes his victim to sin. If you did that, you would have a thoughtful critique of faith by CS Lewis himself.

[Filippo Lippi]

So it's men not God except the malaria bit.
Then again I don't think they have to worry about that too much considering where they are located.


It's about men in this country too, politics.

Funny how fast things can deteriate caused by men.

It's not about works if you seek God.

He has left much to us for now, apperently these men are atheists wouldn't you think?
They don't believe either.

What should we do ...lets see should we bomb them too?

"The bad men must be atheists because they do bad things?"

Really? You think that?

[dio]

You are the ignorant one ...snip...
Quote:
The Earth...its size is perfect...snip..

Perfect!

I now grow tired of your ignorance.


Uh... There's a scientific trend that forwards the idea (based on data, go figure) that living organisms evolved to make the most out of the environment they had available (Earth).

But don't let that bother you.

[kerikiwi]

Have you ever done anything bad?
After listing to your mind?
Or did something else change it.
To do good?
Are not you torn in the middle?
Till you make that decision.

Who is the guy/gal in the middle?

Who are the two on the left and the right?

Who is the guy/gal in the middle?

The war in your mind is the war of principalities.

If you listen to the good then you already have found something, but I know the guy in the middle wants’ the credit, so you fall anyway, that’s pride and atheism.

The devil is smart.
Who do you think those voices are?
Certainly it isn’t the guy in the middle.


Good Night.
So, no, no evidence. No evidence at all.

[fuelair]

To believe everything you put on the board as an atheist who hasn't found God.
That inner voice that you listen to that tells you there is no God, then there's the one that is yours and there's one in there that tells you the right things to do which may make you morally correct, but your works are not enough.

What inner voice? Son of Sam's inner voice told him to kill people.

[Roboramma]

1. I will accept that one: In that context GOD IS THE UNIVERSE.

By that logic I AM the apple pie I made last weekend...

[maatorc]

We already have a name for the Universe. It's, "universe".

Meaning?

[maatorc]

By that logic I AM the apple pie I made last weekend...

The context is wrong.

[RandFan]

Meaning? There is no need to call the universe god. Calling the universe god doesn't advance discussion or debate. Calling the universe god doesn't elucidate anything. It's pointless.

We have a name. It's "universe".

[maatorc]

There is no need to call the universe god. Calling the universe god doesn't advance discussion or debate. Calling the universe god doesn't elucidate anything. It's pointless.

We have a name. It's "universe".

God is ALL THAT IS.
The universe is ALL THAT IS.
God and the universe are synonymous.
Call IT or THEM what you will.

[RandFan]

God is ALL THAT IS.Which is to say nothing.

Call IT or THEM what you will.Universe is fine. God doesn't make any sense as it doesn't impart any information.

[Ferguson]

God is ALL THAT IS.
The universe is ALL THAT IS.
God and the universe are synonymous.
Call IT or THEM what you will.

So you use "God" as shorthand for the universe? How is that not meaningless? If I say unicorns and cars are synonymous, what does that add to my understanding of cars (or unicorns)? A car is still a car, and the universe is still the universe, no matter what you call it. Most theists arguing for a God are arguing for a creator of the universe.
Of course that's the problem with God, always changing nature based on the argument of the moment. :D

[bef]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Thanks, Carl.

Amputees regrowing limbs after praying.

This would be a good start.

No amount of seemingly unlikely and highly improbable occurrences could persuade me that God exists. It would have to be something which truly is physically impossible, and even then I'm fairly sure it would later be come to be understood how it was possible ;) God of the gaps and all.

Anyway, if God exists, why hasn't he won Randi's $1m? I'm sure he could use it, because the way his Church's are run, he seems to need a lot of money! I guess the rent on a planet like this must be ridiculous!

[bokonon]

Quote:
The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter. Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.
Let's say it turns out that it's not only the only KNOWN planet, but the only planet in the whole universe that's so equipped. What would be the point of a creator-god making all those other planets, which can't sustain plant, animal, and human life? One small rock out of trillions -- why make so many "failures"? It's like a gardener planting a garden with mostly rocks, wires, and bits of glass, and off in one obscure corner dropping a single bean seed into the ground. Makes no sense, for a creator-god. For an impersonal, undirected universe spinning webs of random matter, it makes perfect sense.

The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph.
No. The position of the earth DOES vary as it rotates around the sun. Sometimes it is nearer. Sometimes it is farther away. A scientist named Milankovitch speculated that this and other variations were responsible for the dozens of ice ages which have made life on earth -- difficult, but not impossible. We happen to be living in a relatively warm interval, but science tells us that the earth was not always so "perfect" and will not remain so.

It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.
All the planets we can see well enough to know rotate, They're all "properly warmed and cooled" too. Earth's days were once much shorter, and are getting longer all the time. Life on earth adjusts to the conditions it finds, such as seasonal variations, but it's hardly "optimal".

And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.
The moon was much closer in the past, and is moving farther away all the time. If it's "perfect" today, it wasn't perfect yesterday, and will not be perfect tomorrow.

Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:
It has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.
Water doesn't keep our bodies at a specific temperature, our metabolism does. And water exists throughout the lifeless universe. Why was water frozen into comets if its purpose is to foster and support life?

Water is a universal solvent.No, it isn't. It dissolves what it dissolves, but alcohol dissolves things water does not dissolve.

Water is also chemically neutral.No, it isn't.

Water has a unique surface tension.
So does mercury, so does olive oil. Surface tension is a property of liquids.

Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.
Yes, water is an unusual liquid in that respect. Yay, water!

Perfect!No, not perfect. Life has adapted to the conditions in which it evolved. If the earth's axis were not tilted, life would not have been required to adapt to "seasons". It is stressful and imperfect that trees should have to shed their leaves every year, and grow a new set to survive. That plants and animals have had to find ways to store the energy required to survive when energy sources become scarce.

The microbial life which recycles raw materials after death can also bring death prematurely. Young lives dying before they can reproduce! Wasteful and imperfect.

Predators can't get the nutrients they require from air and sunlight the way plants can. They have to KILL and EAT in order to survive! What they kill is other creatures. Far from perfect.

Mosquitoes suck my blood, and make my skin itch. They spread disease to saint and sinner alike. Unnecessary and perfection deficient.

If there was more oxygen in the atmosphere, I'd have more energy. But oxygen causes changes in living cells which can lead to diseases like cancer. Hardly an ideal atmosphere.

And that's only a few.

I now grow tired of your ignorance.

[bokonon]

So you use "God" as shorthand for the universe? How is that not meaningless?
It's not meaningless because it permits one who has spiritual needs to satisfy them without invoking supernatural beings.

If I say unicorns and cars are synonymous, what does that add to my understanding of cars (or unicorns)? A car is still a car, and the universe is still the universe, no matter what you call it. Most theists arguing for a God are arguing for a creator of the universe.
Many deists are too, but that doesn't mean such a thing exists. The universe definitely exists, and it's mysterious and awesome. Particles popping into existence, and winking out again, and yet we continue, and the hydrogen atom that existed ten billion years ago and was part of a water molecule last week and a sugar today is breathing a bit of energy into my fingers even now so I can type "Wow!"

Of course that's the problem with God, always changing nature based on the argument of the moment. :D
Lots of things change nature. Some call that "evolution."

[Belz...]

So far no life on Mars none on the moon, probably none on any other moons, probably none in the solar system.

I would have to say that so far the evidence is all the abundant life on this planet.

Non sequitur. How does life on Earth prove God ?

[albie]

What is a god? A consciousness greater than mine? That surely exists in other people smarter than me. Would that greater consciousness have to be my creator? I'm sure people create people all the time.

Would that greater consciousness have to exist outside of a body? How does the brain make our self awareness? Electricity? I'm sure complex electrical masses exist in space that could have gained self awareness. The theory of infinite universes and time almost demands that it should be. The same law that makes our existence more likely makes God's more likely.

But until he says hello...and cures my crushing pessimism with a harem...

[Belz...]

Their prayers bring what they can, most of it in donation form.

Do you have any evidence for that ? So far you are only asserting.

Studies on the power of prayer so far have not been convincing.

[Belz...]

You are looking in the wrong place, look within.

No, thanks. Looking within for answers is what we got rid of when we discovered science, and so far it's worked out pretty good.

[Belz...]

Yes like in this country.
What they really wanted was religion and a better government, One like ours.

So what about all those other praying governments that also fail ?

[Belz...]

That inner voice that you listen to that tells you there is no God

I think you're projecting.

No "voice" is telling me anything. It's simply that some of us don't use magical thinking and introspection to reach our conclusions.

but your works are not enough.

They should be. This is why the God hypothesis is inferior. It doesn't take into account the things we've learned since then: you can't police thoughts.

[Belz...]

Hold on. Was there no succesful people in Communist Russia? No happiness? No honest police or people? No one in Communist Russia ever prayed?

Hold on. So there is no crime in America, no corruption, no drug abuse, no scandals, ALL Americans pray and there are no atheists there?

Could you be just a little bit consistent?

It's amazing how he skipped that one.

[PixyMisa]

So far no life on Mars none on the moon, probably none on any other moons, probably none in the solar system.

I would have to say that so far the evidence is all the abundant life on this planet.
All the love that ever was and is yet to come, all of life is part of the Father.

If this planet was tweeked just a little, there would be none here, it is perfection to the highest degree.
So what you're saying is, he screwed up everything in the Universe except some parts of the Earth? (See how long you'd last in Antarctica or the Gobi Desert. Or the bottom of the Maraianas Trench.)

[ctamblyn]

No, what I said it has to be a specal place and so far it is a rare occurence, it has too be a perfect set up.

So far no other planet has been found around a star other that gas giants.
Only life so far here on this one.

From en (dot) wikipedia (dot) org/wiki/Extrasolar_planet -


Most known exoplanets orbit stars roughly similar to our own Sun, that is, main-sequence stars of spectral categories F, G, or K. One reason is simply that planet search programs have tended to concentrate on such stars. But even after taking this into account, statistical analysis suggests that lower-mass stars (red dwarfs, of spectral category M) are either less likely to have planets or have planets that are themselves of lower mass and hence harder to detect.[25] Recent observations by the Spitzer Space Telescope indicate that stars of spectral category O, which are much hotter than our Sun, produce a photo-evaporation effect that inhibits planetary formation.[26]

(my bolding)

Also, from en (dot) wikipedia(dot) org/wiki/51_Pegasi -


51 Pegasi is a Sun-like star located 15.4 parsecs (50.1 light-years) from Earth in the constellation Pegasus. It was the first Sun-like star, other than the Sun, found to have a planet orbiting it, a discovery that was announced in 1995.
The exoplanet's discovery was announced on October 6, 1995 by Michel Mayor and Didier Queloz.[2] The discovery was made with the radial velocity method at the Observatoire de Haute-Provence, using the ELODIE spectrograph.
The star itself is of apparent magnitude 5.49, and so is visible from the Earth with binoculars, or with the naked eye under dark sky conditions. 51 Pegasi is a yellow dwarf star estimated to be 7.5 billion years old, somewhat older than the Sun, 4–6% more massive, with more metal content and running low in hydrogen. Its spectral type is listed as either G2.5V or G4-5Va.

(my bolding)

I'm no expert, but this seems to contradict your claim about gas giants. Maybe someone who knows more about astronomy than me could clarify this.

Best regards,
ctamblyn

[RoboTimbo]

The same as he has done to you.
You can ansewer your own question.

Because I have been where your at right now.

This is nonsensical. There is no more evidence for devils to exist than there is for gods to exist so no devil did anything to me.

The question was, What would persuade you that there are no god(s)? Your answer of 'The Devil' is nonsense also. If a devil exists to persuade you that there are no god(s), then that implies that there are god(s).

Do you have anything better than nonsense answers?

[Cainkane1]

I wonder if riddle is ever coming back. It doesn't look too hopeful so far.

I'm working out the details of the theology of extratheism, but so far, I've got this...



Well, God was nowhere to be seen. But I touched Miss Ruby's shoulders and she was quiet, and looked up at me with the glad eyes of a child. When I look around the entire table at lunch and Mr. Croker is trying to eat his bib again, and Miss Zile is trying to eat mashed potatoes with a straw, and Miss Lee is trying to drink her fruit salad, and Miss Geraldine always forgets what a fork is when it's halfway to her mouth... you get the idea... I just feel love for them. I love all my Alzheimer's residents so much and I could never explain it. And this kind of love, whoever feels it, is the truth of what people have called God at its very best. It doesn't point to God or prove God, because there is no external God; it is itself God. That's extratheism. :)

So the answer is that there's nothing that could persuade me that "God exists". The only answer to the riddle of why God would stand by and allow evil and suffering is that God is not some kind of almighty being external to us all, God is not sitting around up in the sky and waiting to answer prayers if they're correctly addressed to him, and no, as a matter of fact, God does not "exist."

I may start a thread about defining the theology of extratheism. :) Would anybody be interested?
I'd be very interested.

[Toke]

Communism failing due to lack of prayer?
Not because it's a bad way to run a country?

And African anarchies and cleptocracies are failing because they pray in the wrong manner or to the wrong god?

My country is not perfect, but still, we are doing fine without any god.

[Cainkane1]

The very so called proofs I see put forth for Gods existence are proofs to me that he doesn't. The descriptions of the earth as "perfect" and the descriptions of other planets as being imperfect prove to me no diety is up there with our best interests at heart. For instance if a diety had really loved us why is the earth the only inhabitable planet we can reach? Why is the moon not warm and wet and teeming with life? Why is Mars so cold and dry? Why did Venus get hot and dry up?

A diety who loved us would have these planets waiting and ready for human colonization.

[Foster Zygote]

You are the ignorant one since you missed the point I was making maybe you should re-read what I said.

You need to consider these points as well.
Quote:
The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter. Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.


The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.
And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.4
Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:
It has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.

Water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that thousands of chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.
Water is also chemically neutral. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.
Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.
Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.

Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.

That's just a few.


Perfect!

I now grow tired of your ignorance.

I know what your point is. But it is flat out wrong. If there was a single planet in the whole universe then it would seem miraculous if it was suitable for the type of life we are familiar with. But if there are an unimaginable number of planets in the universe and life is astonishingly adaptable then it becomes far more likely that planets will present conditions suitable to various forms of life. Your "God exists because the Earth is a great place to live" argument is deeply flawed.

[PingOfPong]

The very so called proofs I see put forth for Gods existence are proofs to me that he doesn't. The descriptions of the earth as "perfect" and the descriptions of other planets as being imperfect prove to me no diety is up there with our best interests at heart. For instance if a diety had really loved us why is the earth the only inhabitable planet we can reach? Why is the moon not warm and wet and teeming with life? Why is Mars so cold and dry? Why did Venus get hot and dry up?

A diety who loved us would have these planets waiting and ready for human colonization.


You're forgetting that God may love you but he's going to murder you and just about everyone you know in order to build paradise for his chosen ones here on Earth. That's going to go down long before planetary colonization is feasible. All that stuff we see through telescopes is superfluous.

[Belz...]

God is ALL THAT IS.
The universe is ALL THAT IS.
God and the universe are synonymous.
Call IT or THEM what you will.

I choose to call it "duck".

[Mark6]

God is ALL THAT IS.
The universe is ALL THAT IS.
God and the universe are synonymous.
Call IT or THEM what you will.
Fine. Why should IT or THEM care what I do, and why should I pray to IT or THEM?

[Mark6]

What would it take to convince YOU that everyone from Abraham to St. Paul has been barking up the wrong tree, and Vikings were right all along? That is, in order to enter Valhalla you must make sacrifices to Odin and die bravely in battle?

Which I consider slightly more likely than Judeo-Christian myth turning out to be right. Judeo-Christian god is self-contradictory (or completely bug**** insane). Not that I believe in actual existence of any pagan gods, but at least they tend to be consistent. If invulnerable man with a spear appeared in the sky and claimed he was Odin, I might accept it as true, as he would be functionally equivalent to Odin. I cannot think of anything functionally equivalent to Jehovah, as different functions would contradict each other.

[drkitten]

God is ALL THAT IS.

Unless you use the word correctly, in which case God is the creator of ALL THAT IS, and is just as distinct from the universe itself as the baker is distinct from the bread.


God and the universe are synonymous.

... unless you know the meanings of the words you're throwing around.

[Cainkane1]

You're forgetting that God may love you but he's going to murder you and just about everyone you know in order to build paradise for his chosen ones here on Earth. That's going to go down long before planetary colonization is feasible. All that stuff we see through telescopes is superfluous.
yeah well he should at least have made the earth bigger to accomodate all the teeming millions of underfed people.

[ctamblyn]

Oops. My previous post (#216) is dumb and irrelevant. Please disregard. Sorry.

[six7s]

God is ALL THAT IS.
The universe is ALL THAT IS.
God and the universe are synonymous.
Call IT or THEM what you will.I choose to call it "duck".Nominated (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=5345570#post5345570) :)

[six7s]

There is a story told of an old farmer who lived by himself in a cabin. Next to his cabin was a barn. One very cold wintry night, birds began to crash into the windows of his warm cabin, trying to escape the deadly cold. So the old man went outside and opened the barn door. It was warm inside the barn. He waved his arms and shouted at the birds to go into the barn, into safety. But they did not understand him.
It was then that the old man wished that he could become one of them. If he could become a bird, then he could lead the other birds into the barn, to avoid death. And at that moment the old farmer understood why Jesus had come. Though the old man could not become a bird, God could become a man. So he did. "For God so loved the world that he sent his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:16).There is a story told of an old lawyer who lived by himself in a mansion. On the other side of town, there was a retirement home for the 'demented yet fabulously wealthy', which retained the lawyer to manage the assets of all residents of the retirement home in a diverse portfolio of stocks, bonds, gold and real estate. Each year, the portfolio averaged a return in excess of 14% after-tax profit, half of which was reinvested and the other half - approximately $42,000,000/annum, was distributed among the retirement home residents. One very cold wintry night, the lawyer crashed his car and was hospitalied. On hearing of his woes, his friends at the retirement home unanimously decided to brave the cold night air and journey to his bedside, where the doctors were explaining that his injuries were so severe that it was certain that he would die an agonising death within a week. Despite his pain, the lawyer remained calm and quietly insisted on being allowed to go online and manage the portfolio, whereupon he divested all of the funds into his own account, and then died. "It is easier for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God than it is for a camel" (Matthew 19:24 ).

[Third Eye Open]

So far no life on Mars none on the moon, probably none on any other moons, probably none in the solar system.

I would have to say that so far the evidence is all the abundant life on this planet.
All the love that ever was and is yet to come, all of life is part of the Father.

If this planet was tweeked just a little, there would be none here, it is perfection to the highest degree.

How is it that you've been here five years and are STILL using this retarded argument?

[Beerina]

What can persuade you that God exists?

Nothing. I know that it would be trivial (as are all finite things) for God to mess with my neural pathways until I had a far greater epiphanal release of endorphins such that would make a 14 year old boy's very first ejaculation, and inside his pendulous-breasted English teacher accompanied by simultaneous initial heroin rush from his first heroin injection look like getting punched in the face by that thing the melty metal Terminator slammed into the head of Arnie over and over in the factory while receiving a root canal using dull butter knives and salt-encrusted jackhammers without novocaine.


...if you follow all that. :duck:

[Third Eye Open]

Let's say it turns out that it's not only the only KNOWN planet, but the only planet in the whole universe that's so equipped. What would be the point of a creator-god making all those other planets, which can't sustain plant, animal, and human life? One small rock out of trillions -- why make so many "failures"? It's like a gardener planting a garden with mostly rocks, wires, and bits of glass, and off in one obscure corner dropping a single bean seed into the ground. Makes no sense, for a creator-god. For an impersonal, undirected universe spinning webs of random matter, it makes perfect sense.


No. The position of the earth DOES vary as it rotates around the sun. Sometimes it is nearer. Sometimes it is farther away. A scientist named Milankovitch speculated that this and other variations were responsible for the dozens of ice ages which have made life on earth -- difficult, but not impossible. We happen to be living in a relatively warm interval, but science tells us that the earth was not always so "perfect" and will not remain so.


All the planets we can see well enough to know rotate, They're all "properly warmed and cooled" too. Earth's days were once much shorter, and are getting longer all the time. Life on earth adjusts to the conditions it finds, such as seasonal variations, but it's hardly "optimal".


The moon was much closer in the past, and is moving farther away all the time. If it's "perfect" today, it wasn't perfect yesterday, and will not be perfect tomorrow.


Water doesn't keep our bodies at a specific temperature, our metabolism does. And water exists throughout the lifeless universe. Why was water frozen into comets if its purpose is to foster and support life?

No, it isn't. It dissolves what it dissolves, but alcohol dissolves things water does not dissolve.

No, it isn't.


So does mercury, so does olive oil. Surface tension is a property of liquids.


Yes, water is an unusual liquid in that respect. Yay, water!

No, not perfect. Life has adapted to the conditions in which it evolved. If the earth's axis were not tilted, life would not have been required to adapt to "seasons". It is stressful and imperfect that trees should have to shed their leaves every year, and grow a new set to survive. That plants and animals have had to find ways to store the energy required to survive when energy sources become scarce.

The microbial life which recycles raw materials after death can also bring death prematurely. Young lives dying before they can reproduce! Wasteful and imperfect.

Predators can't get the nutrients they require from air and sunlight the way plants can. They have to KILL and EAT in order to survive! What they kill is other creatures. Far from perfect.

Mosquitoes suck my blood, and make my skin itch. They spread disease to saint and sinner alike. Unnecessary and perfection deficient.

If there was more oxygen in the atmosphere, I'd have more energy. But oxygen causes changes in living cells which can lead to diseases like cancer. Hardly an ideal atmosphere.

And that's only a few.

Edge, you MUST have had all this explained to you countless times in the years you've been here. Do you just block each time from your memory as it happens? Are you of the opinion that saying something often enough will make people believe it?

I mean, sheesh, you could at least graduate to the fine tuning of the universe garbage, at least that is an argument that doesn't completely ignore everything we have learned about evolution in the last century and a half.

[The Atheist]

God is ALL THAT IS.

Good; problem solved.

I am part of ALL THAT IS.

I do not believe a god exists.

If I am part of a god, I could deny him, abuse him or disobey him, but I could not fail to believe that he existed.

[Cainkane1]

You're forgetting that God may love you but he's going to murder you and just about everyone you know in order to build paradise for his chosen ones here on Earth. That's going to go down long before planetary colonization is feasible. All that stuff we see through telescopes is superfluous.
If a diety cared about us wed have had the "paradise" long ago.

[six7s]

Good; problem solved.

I am part of ALL THAT IS.

I do not believe a god exists.

If I am part of a god, I could deny him, abuse him or disobey him, but I could not fail to believe that he existed.Erm... huh? :confused:

[Cainkane1]

Have you ever done anything bad?
After listing to your mind?
Or did something else change it.
To do good?
Are not you torn in the middle?
Till you make that decision.

Who is the guy/gal in the middle?

Who are the two on the left and the right?

Who is the guy/gal in the middle?

The war in your mind is the war of principalities.

If you listen to the good then you already have found something, but I know the guy in the middle wants’ the credit, so you fall anyway, that’s pride and atheism.

The devil is smart.
Who do you think those voices are?
Certainly it isn’t the guy in the middle.


Good Night.
I've done things I'm not proud but i take the blame entirely and not put the blame on someone who tempted me. At least not a devil. maybe a living human female but I won't go into details.

You said the devil is smart but I'm smarter than he is because I'm too smart to go to war with a person who has three times as many loyal soldiers as i do.

[Elizabeth I]

To believe everything you put on the board as an atheist who hasn't found God.
That inner voice that you listen to that tells you there is no God, then there's the one that is yours and there's one in there that tells you the right things to do which may make you morally correct, but your works are not enough.

So it's men not God except the malaria bit.
Then again I don't think they have to worry about that too much considering where they are located.


It's about men in this country too, politics.

Funny how fast things can deteriate caused by men.

It's not about works if you seek God.

He has left much to us for now, apperently these men are atheists wouldn't you think?
They don't believe either.

What should we do ...lets see should we bomb them too?

Have you ever done anything bad?
After listing to your mind?
Or did something else change it.
To do good?
Are not you torn in the middle?
Till you make that decision.

Who is the guy/gal in the middle?

Who are the two on the left and the right?

Who is the guy/gal in the middle?

The war in your mind is the war of principalities.

If you listen to the good then you already have found something, but I know the guy in the middle wants’ the credit, so you fall anyway, that’s pride and atheism.

The devil is smart.
Who do you think those voices are?
Certainly it isn’t the guy in the middle.


Good Night.

You would be amazed at how much credibility simple coherence would gain for your arguments. Why don't you try it sometime?

[Pure Argent]

Okay, I missed edge's sudden appearance here. This thread EXPLODED. Anyway. Here's my two cents (more like four dollars, but whatever).

God only helps those who pray. Evidence: atheist Communism failed

This is extremely easy to refute. First of all, Communism wasn't started by atheists. Secondly, there are plenty of countries that don't pray and are extremely successful. As RandFan said, Scandinavia is an example. Edge's rebuttal: "So there's no crime there? No suffering?"
Wow. Special pleading much? You mean to say that here in America, where people apparently pray all the time, there is no suffering? No crime?

The devil has convinced you that God does not exist

No, he hasn't. This is circular logic, because the devil is part of your celestial pantheon. Your argument against our assertion that there is no god is, essentially, that the evil counterpart to your god has tricked us. But for this to be true, you must first prove that this evil being exists.

The Earth is perfect for life. If the Earth were any different, there wouldn't be life

This is called "conditional probability". Yes, the majority of the universe is hostile to life. However, because the universe is so diverse, probability favors the idea that there will be at least one area that can support life. What are the odds that life will form in an area that doesn't allow life to form? None. The ONLY place that life can form is in an area that supports it. This is the sentient puddle scenario.

Now, on to maatorc and his/her nonsense.

God is ALL THAT IS.
The universe is ALL THAT IS.
God and the universe are synonymous.
Call IT or THEM what you will.

Equivocation fallacy.

[riddle]

How do you know what is good and what is bad? You may say it’s because of the current moral system of the society or because of the criminal justice system that forbid you to do many things. But even without these restrictions you would know maybe vaguely what is generally good and what is bad. Many people find ways to deceive others without being outside the law and without being known from the society. But they know that their actions are somehow wrong, why? Yes, they may excuse themselves and tell themselves it’s all right, but why they have to excuse themselves inwardly? I can say that we live in two worlds – the outward and the inward. For the outward is our actions and the surroundings around us and the inward is our thoughts and the evaluations we make for our deeds and actions. In the outward world there are rules and the society is the judge. But in the inward world there are also principles and a judge – can you tell me who that judge is?

[Marquis de Carabas]

How do you know what is good and what is bad?
Morally? I don't.

[Pure Argent]

How do you know what is good and what is bad? You may say it’s because of the current moral system of the society or because of the criminal justice system that forbid you to do many things. But even without these restrictions you would know maybe vaguely what is generally good and what is bad. Many people find ways to deceive others without being outside the law and without being known from the society. But they know that their actions are somehow wrong, why? Yes, they may excuse themselves and tell themselves it’s all right, but why they have to excuse themselves inwardly? I can say that we live in two worlds – the outward and the inward. For the outward is our actions and the surroundings around us and the inward is our thoughts and the evaluations we make for our deeds and actions. In the outward world there are rules and the society is the judge. But in the inward world there are also principles and a judge – can you tell me who that judge is?

1) Evolution could account for morality. Species willing to help each other rather than compete with each other would be stronger species, and would have survived.
2) Where do you get your morality? You say it comes from this god, or from its holy book, but wouldn't you know what was moral anyway?

Seriously, riddle. You are doing yourself a grave disservice by asserting that you are so shallow as to be incapable of doing the right thing without the direct intervention of an outside force.

[fromdownunder]

How do you know what is good and what is bad? You may say it’s because of the current moral system of the society or because of the criminal justice system that forbid you to do many things. But even without these restrictions you would know maybe vaguely what is generally good and what is bad. Many people find ways to deceive others without being outside the law and without being known from the society. But they know that their actions are somehow wrong, why? Yes, they may excuse themselves and tell themselves it’s all right, but why they have to excuse themselves inwardly? I can say that we live in two worlds – the outward and the inward. For the outward is our actions and the surroundings around us and the inward is our thoughts and the evaluations we make for our deeds and actions. In the outward world there are rules and the society is the judge. But in the inward world there are also principles and a judge – can you tell me who that judge is?

Good = staying on topic
Bad = Moving Goalposts.

The judge is probably Judge Dredd.

I would have given this a substantive replym, except it is becoming obvious that riddle is only here to preach, and not discuss anything, so I will not waste my time any further.

Norm

[RandFan]

How do you know what is good and what is bad? "Know"? I don't "know".

The closest one could get to moral truths are observations of near universal sentiments about morality (it's wrong to kill) and socio biological concepts like reciprocal altruism predicted by game theory, empathy (mirror neurons) and other biological based behaviors.

But this ultimately doesn't tell us what is good and bad. Only how we might perceive what is moral as individuals and society.

[ve2vfd]

How do you know what is good and what is bad?

I don't know... I just do what I think is right and up to now is would seem that my behavior matches up with society's standards.

I'm guessing that means I must know whats good and bad, and I never needed some magic man in the sky or a book of fiction written by fellow men to help me figure good from bad...

Pat

[Hokulele]

But in the inward world there are also principles and a judge – can you tell me who that judge is?


Mirror neurons.

[decojuicer]

So riddle, are you trying to say that you only do right because it is the only way to get into your "heaven"? If so, then that doesn't seem like you are doing right for the right reason.

If I only do something because I am told that I am going to get a reward, then why should I consider myself any more worthy of that reward then a person who does the same thing without the promise of the reward?

Morals are almost certainly, as Pure Agent said, a biproduct of evolution. One group of beings discovers that treating each other badly(i.e. stealing, raping, killing, etc.) doesn't help them at all. In fact, it hinders them. So they start helping each other and they notice that they begin to flourish. As a result, they teach their offspring to help each other, and so forth and so on.

Eventually, people of dubious nature latch on to the principle and say that it's GOD'S WILL that we help each other, and that they have a direct line to that god. Everything after that is history.

Edge,

Saying that in order to understand god, we need to first accept god is ridiculous. It's like saying that in order to fix my truck using a Chilton's Manual, I must first accept that I am a mechanic.

If your god wants us to understand it/him/her, then why not make it simple to understand. I assume that it can do that, being everything and all powerful.

[JoeTheJuggler]

God is ALL THAT IS.
The universe is ALL THAT IS.
God and the universe are synonymous.
Call IT or THEM what you will.

My first post on this thread explained what a formal definition is.

Saying "God is all that is" simply begs the question of the existence of God.

So until you can define this term, no one can really say what evidence might be required to accept the proposition "God exists".

The way the term God is conventionally used, I can easily prove that God doesn't exist since there are logical contradictions in the way the term is conventionally used. There are also abundant examples of empirical evidence that contradicts many conventional claims about the properties of God.

So with the conventional usages of "God", there can no more be evidence that would make me accept the existence of God than there can be evidence that would make me accept the existence of a 4 sided triangle.

[Darat]

Most of the people who don’t believe in God or other divine powers said that there is no proof for such existence – this is their most important argument. And you cannot persuade them in any way that the human is not the beginning and not the end of everything because they need proof, some clear and concrete evidence. And now I ask you those who need this evidence what evidence can persuade you that God exists?

...snip...


God.

[kerikiwi]

Riddle do you plan to just dive in every so often to add more unsubstantiated assertions, or could you possibly discuss things and respond to what has been said in response to your postings?
And could you use paragraphs? And sentences that make sense? (Insofar as that is possible with the nonsense they contain)