Paralized, not in a coma for 23 years..

[Gangularis]

I found this article a bit interesting, particularly after reading about this man that's supposedly communicating via a lady that moves his hand around.. :rolleyes:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34132340/ns/health-health_care/

Commentary
By Arthur Caplan, Ph.D.
msnbc.com contributor
updated 1 hour, 43 minutes ago


Arthur Caplan, Ph.D.
• E-mail
A Belgian man who was thought to be in a coma for 23 years shared these feelings with a reporter today: "It was especially frustrating when my family needed me. I could not share in their sorrow."

At least, that's what his hand typed out on a touch-screen keyboard — a hand that was being cradled by a therapist.

I'm sure this isn't going to be a popular opinion, but I, for one, don't buy it.

[Denver]

I found this article a bit interesting, particularly after reading about this man that's supposedly communicating via a lady that moves his hand around.. :rolleyes:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34132340/ns/health-health_care/

Mr. Randi just wrote a SWIFT article on this:

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/783-this-cruel-farce-has-to-stop.html

[Gangularis]

Oh, very nice. Thanks for pointing that out.

[gtc]

To avoid you and your loved ones becoming a victim of this (or of people who claim to talk to the dead) write a word or phrase in greeting card in an envelope to be held, unopened, by your loved ones.

If the person who claims to be communicating with you can't reveal the contents of the envelope then they aren't really in touch with you.

My card contains a bunch of swears and a haiku about an improbably sex act.

[Puppycow]

The stupid! It burns! (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34109227/ns/health-more_health_news/?ns=health-more_health_news) This, from the AP?

BRUSSELS - A Belgian man wrongly diagnosed as vegetative for 23 years told The Associated Press Tuesday that the discovery he was fully conscious brought him a feeling of rebirth after decades of loneliness and frustration.

Car-crash victim Rom Houben was diagnosed as being in a vegetative state but appears to have been conscious the whole time. An expert using a specialized type of brain scan that was not available in the 1980s finally realized it and provided him with the equipment to communicate.

Houben told AP Television News that years of being unable to move or communicate left him feeling “alone, lonely, frustrated, but also blessed with my family.”

“It was especially frustrating when my family needed me. I could not share in their sorrow. We could not give each other support,” he wrote, punching the words letter by letter into a touchscreen with one finger held by an assistant at the ’t Weyerke institute in eastern Belgium. The 46-year-old Houben is now communicating with one finger and a special touchscreen on his wheelchair. “Just imagine," he wrote. "You hear, see, feel and think but no one can see that. You undergo things. You cannot participate in life.”

Only after all that garbage do you hear from a skeptic. Briefly. And then it returns to the assumption that all this is true and asks about how the doctors misdiagnosed him and how many other similar cases there are.

AP, go sit in the corner with the Weekly World News!

[rjh01]

See also this thread Coma Recovery or FC? (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=160182)

[WildCat]

Wow, being in a coma apparently lets you see a keyboard even with your eyes closed!

[Rolfe]

I was kind of waiting for them to explain how that was being accomplished, but nobody elaborated. As I remember, in The Diving Bell and the Butterfly, the author had voluntary movement in one eyelid, and managed to set up a communication system through that. If the patient has absolutely no voluntary movement at all, it's hard to see how this could be managed short of decoding his actual brain waves.

Rolfe.

[sophia8]

I was kind of waiting for them to explain how that was being accomplished, but nobody elaborated. As I remember, in The Diving Bell and the Butterfly, the author had voluntary movement in one eyelid, and managed to set up a communication system through that. If the patient has absolutely no voluntary movement at all, it's hard to see how this could be managed short of decoding his actual brain waves.

Rolfe.It's all being done by "facilitated communication" - a helper is holding his arm and, according to her, is decoding tiny muscle movements. It's no different from dowsing, or talking to dear departed granny via an ouija board.
Orac has done his usual expert dissection of the case. (http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/11/another_contender_for_the_worst_reportin.php).

[TragicMonkey]

If true, this is going to be embarrassing for all the patients, nurses, doctors, and candystripers who've ducked into his room all these years for a quiet place to have sex. Even if a malpractice suit doesn't pay out, the blackmail certainly will.

[Rolfe]

It's all being done by "facilitated communication" - a helper is holding his arm and, according to her, is decoding tiny muscle movements. It's no different from dowsing, or talking to dear departed granny via an ouija board.
Orac has done his usual expert dissection of the case. (http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/11/another_contender_for_the_worst_reportin.php).


What puzzled me was how fast the helper seemed to be going. Bauby was spelling words out letter by letter with an eyelash flicker, and it took ages. (He was apparently very cross if anyone tried a "predictive texting" guess though!) The film I saw showed the helper's hand moving very fast across the touch-board. I don't see how it would be possible to "decode tiny muscle movements" as quickly as that, even if they were actually there.

Rolfe.

[I Ratant]

"Conditional Consciousness", "Scientific American", December 2009.
Physical stimulus and brain response in fMRI scans can indicate an awareness of the world, if there is any.

[Pardalis]

Did he make any typos?

This was meant as a joke, but actually it should be interesting to read the messages "he" wrote, to see the quality and clarity of language.

[I Ratant]

What would be the code?
1 twitch for an "a",23 twitches for a "w"?
Did the "facilitator" "teach" the subject Morse code?

[WildCat]

If true, this is going to be embarrassing for all the patients, nurses, doctors, and candystripers who've ducked into his room all these years for a quiet place to have sex. Even if a malpractice suit doesn't pay out, the blackmail certainly will.
It occurs to me after reading this post that a simple test could be performed to confirm or debunk the claim.

Simply tell the patient a random name, then let Linda Wouters into the room and have him type out the name which was given. I predict fail.

[Darth Rotor]

What would be the code?
1 twitch for an "a",23 twitches for a "w"?
Did the "facilitator" "teach" the subject Morse code?
It's a bit easier than that.

If you set up a 5 x 5 grid, you can remove Q and identify any letter in the English alphabet with matched twit(ch) sets ... which is sorta like two FC practitioners, but that's another story.

For example, set A-E on top row, ignore Q, and you can spell goat as follows

2,2
3,5
1,1
4,4

[UNLoVedRebel]

FC was confirmed as a fraud years ago with Autistic children.

[I Ratant]

It's a bit easier than that.

If you set up a 5 x 5 grid, you can remove Q and identify any letter in the English alphabet with matched twit(ch) sets ... which is sorta like two FC practitioners, but that's another story.

For example, set A-E on top row, ignore Q, and you can spell goat as follows

2,2
3,5
1,1
4,4
.
That's the code the prisoners in the Hanoi Hilton used.
The "facilitator" needs to be asked as to what system is being used, without offering any suggestions as to what it might be.
And how was the subject taught it?
And how it works when one's eyes are closed and can't see the keyboard?

[WildCat]

.
That's the code the prisoners in the Hanoi Hilton used.
Some residents of the Hanoi Hilton had a far simpler code. Can you decipher his message?

http://home.mindspring.com/~a.lo/pgfingers.jpg

[Almo]

What would be the code?
1 twitch for an "a",23 twitches for a "w"?
Did the "facilitator" "teach" the subject Morse code?

If you mean the eye-twitching, it was like this.

The reader said "A... B... C... D... E..." Twitch. "E". Twitch. (would be two for no). "A... B... C... D... E... F... G..." Twich. "G". Twitch. "A... B... C... D... E... F... G..." Twitch. "G". Twitch. "Egg". Twitch.

SLOW!!!!!

[imjohn]

Twenty-three years without the ability to communicate would most likely render you psychotic and /or suicidal.

[TragicMonkey]

.
That's the code the prisoners in the Hanoi Hilton used.
The "facilitator" needs to be asked as to what system is being used, without offering any suggestions as to what it might be.
And how was the subject taught it?
And how it works when one's eyes are closed and can't see the keyboard?

I would suck at using that code, as I would need to sing the alphabet song to decode each letter.

[INRM]

Regarding this Locked-in-Syndrome. What artery suffered a stroke and is his thalamus still working or just the cortex?

INRM

[Undesired Walrus]

It's not entirely implausible that for this particular shot the aide was demonstrating to the camera how this man used his keypad while he was dozing. A bit cruel to treat him like a puppet, but that is journalism for you. They need shots like that.

Just throwing a bit of skepticism into the mix.

[Undesired Walrus]

It occurs to me after reading this post that a simple test could be performed to confirm or debunk the claim.

Simply tell the patient a random name, then let Linda Wouters into the room and have him type out the name which was given. I predict fail.

It was done:

The spectacle is so incredible that even Steven Laureys, the neurologist who discovered Mr Houben’s potential, had doubts about its authenticity. He decided to put it to the test.
“I showed him objects when I was alone with him in the room and then, later, with his aide, he was able to give the right answers,” Professor Laureys said. “It is true.”
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=160182

Could all be fibbing I suppose, but no fail on the surface of it.

[I Ratant]

Some residents of the Hanoi Hilton had a far simpler code. Can you decipher his message?

http://home.mindspring.com/~a.lo/pgfingers.jpg
.
The members of the crew of the USS Pueblo, captured off North Korea, used similar hand codes in the official capture photo the North Koreans released.
When the messages were decoded, the North Koreans broke a few fingers on the prisoners.

[Dumb All Over]

Could all be fibbing I suppose, but no fail on the surface of it.
On the surface it is a huge fail and exactly for the reason Mr. Randi points out. It's a little difficult to communicate through this method with your eyes closed.

Besides, I've come to learn that Mr. Randi is rarely wrong on such matters. I would need definitive evidence to convince me this is anything other than facilitated communication. You'd have to get up pretty early to fool ol' Mr. Randi.

[Undesired Walrus]

On the surface it is a huge fail and exactly for the reason Mr. Randi points out. It's a little difficult to communicate through this method with your eyes closed.

Eh? How do you know that he had his eyes closed on this occasion?

[Rolfe]

Well, look, if some of what they're showing is obvious horsefeathers, you have two alternatives. Either some of the time he can genuinely communicate but some of the time the helper is making it up, or she's making it up all the time, but somehow, was able to fool the test Professor Laureys devised.

The first sounds a bit implausible on the face of it (if she was really able to get information from him, wouldn't she realise that some of the time she wasn't?), and we don't know enough about the conditions of the test to be able to discount the latter. That's Randi's speciality, let's face it.

Rolfe.

[Dumb All Over]

Eh? How do you know that he had his eyes closed on this occasion?
On this occasion, all we seem to have is anecdotal evidence. Is this enough for you? It is not for me.

[Aepervius]

Eh? How do you know that he had his eyes closed on this occasion?

On anotehr video showed on german TV he had his eye skyward.

As pointed out in an article even the BEST touch typing person of the world had either to have a SET position and could then avoid looking at the keyboard, or without a set position she had to look at the keyboard. You cannot in any way whatsoever do both : no set position, and not looking at the keyboard.

And now he does not even have a FULL movement set on his hand. The FC person is DECODING twitch and muscle movement. Now look at the speed she is doing the typing.

At least for those few video, it is very obvious he is NOT doing the communication.

Now that does not prove he is not awake or anything, but it case a good shadow on the case.

[Rolfe]

To explain my point a little better, we have evidence that the helper is typing out sentences while the patient's eyes are closed. That's how much attention she's actually paying to the person she's allegedly communicating on behalf of.

Thus we have two possibilities - either just now and again she's really communicating for him, and one of these occasions was when Professor Laureys tried his test, or the conditions of the test weren't stringent enough to exclude a bit of cheating. My own suspicions tend to the latter.

Rolfe.

[Undesired Walrus]

What would be the motive of the Prof to fib?

[Rolfe]

Please point out where the Prof "fibbing" was established as being the only explanation. In fact, please point out where anyone suggested that at all, because I don't recall that. When did it become the case that the person who was fooled by a test that wasn't carefully enough designed to exclude cheating, was "fibbing"?

Rolfe.

[Beerina]

The whole FC thing w.r.t. comas is really a non-issue. Anybody suspected of being "locked in", should be discoverable by brainwave measurements.

IIRC, there was a real case of a woman thought to be in a coma (or whatever) and they found out she was actually conscious because of the way her brainwaves responded when people talked. This after like 20 years that way.

God what a nightmare that would be.

[Prometheus]

The whole FC thing w.r.t. comas is really a non-issue. Anybody suspected of being "locked in", should be discoverable by brainwave measurements.

IIRC, there was a real case of a woman thought to be in a coma (or whatever) and they found out she was actually conscious because of the way her brainwaves responded when people talked. This after like 20 years that way.

God what a nightmare that would be.

Supposedly that's what happened with this guy, except the brain scan results (from 3 years ago) are debatable. The only reason this guy is in the news now is because of the FC angle.

[Nursefoxfire]

Big surprise: he's NOT communicating.

From the article:
Last November, news of the case first broke in Der Spiegel, a German publication, and The Associated Press and others reported on it as well. Houben's speech therapist claimed she could feel pressure from his hand guiding her on a keyboard. A basic test was performed that ostensibly proved it was Houben who was communicating.

Since then, Laureys has done his own small study of three speech therapists working with minimally conscious patients, including Houben. In two of those cases, including Houben's, the technique failed. Last week, Laureys presented the results at a neuropsychiatry meeting in London.

"To me, it's enough to say this method doesn't work," he said Friday.

Other experts said the technique should never have been used in the first place.

"It's like using an Ouija board," Arthur Caplan, a professor of bioethics at the University of Pennsylvania, said Friday. "It was too good to be true and we shouldn't have believed it."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35479463/ns/health-more_health_news/

[Rolfe]

Funny how this isn't all over the TV news, isn't it....?

Rolfe.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Funny how this isn't all over the TV news, isn't it....?

Rolfe.

That's just what I said (if more stridently :blush:) in the other thread about this. :D

[Rolfe]

It's like the Helensburgh panther. All over the TV news and the BBC web site. When it was eventually shown to weigh about 5kg, belong to a little girl and answer to the name of Puss-Puss, it was on an inside page of the Helensburgh Gazette.

Rolfe.

[Prometheus]

Well, it's not like they'd sell a lot of newspapers with a front page headline, "Oops! We Screwed Up Again!"

[Ladewig]

I did come across the debunking story and one of the things that torqued me was at one point during the blind test, the facilitator said that the patient typed out the words "you don't trust me." If that isn't blindingly obvious that the facilitator is typing the words and not the patient, I don't know what is.

[JoeTheJuggler]

It's like the Helensburgh panther. All over the TV news and the BBC web site. When it was eventually shown to weigh about 5kg, belong to a little girl and answer to the name of Puss-Puss, it was on an inside page of the Helensburgh Gazette.

I'm tempted to use this as a sig.

It reminds me of the Simpsons spoof of the X-files. They have Leonard Nimoy introducing it:

Hello, I'm Leonard Nimoy. The following tale of alien encounters is true. And by true, I mean false. It's all lies.

But they're entertaining lies, and in the end, isn't that the real truth?

The answer...is no...