The Magician's Oath

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

What's the story with the magician's oath? I know it's explicitly okay to reveal secrets to someone honestly learning the trade. Is it okay to expose a fraud by pointing out conjuring tricks he is using? Is it okay to discuss the means by which a suspected fraud might be doing things?

I know nothing about the magic trade, so give me the basics.

~~ Paul

[Soapy Sam]

I guess that's your answer Paul.

[Brown]

I generally feel that folks who perform trickery but who try to pass their stuff off as authentic can have some of their secrets revealed. With a little tact, you can reveal the secret without destroying the trick for other magicians.

When someone gets all goggle-eyed about a mind-reading trick, for example, you can say something like: "Oh, that's no big deal, he's just using what magicians call a 'glim.'" You don't have to explain what a "glim" is; you merely inform the spectator that the fraud is using a technique known to magicians.

I recently explicitly gave away one of David Blaine's secrets. A relative of mine had seen Blaine in one of his television specials. As he described one of Blaine's lamest tricks with awe, my relative seemed to think that Blaine really might have some sort of mysterious powers. I told my relative in detail how the trick was done, and the awe disappeared instantly. I have no regrets about this.

[NoZed Avenger]

Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
What's the story with the magician's oath? I know it's explicitly okay to reveal secrets to someone honestly learning the trade. Is it okay to expose a fraud by pointing out conjuring tricks he is using? Is it okay to discuss the means by which a suspected fraud might be doing things?

I know nothing about the magic trade, so give me the basics.

~~ Paul

There is some disagreement over this topic (where precisely to draw the lines) within the magic community.

Personally, I have no real problem with exposure of a method if it being used by someone to defraud people. Regrettable, but the good outweighs the harm in that sort of situation.

If the fraud can be stopped without the exposure, I would generally try that route first -- to mimize the damage to legitimate magicians -- but if there is no good way around it, protecting people from fraud is more important that withholding a secret.

N/A

[Brown]

I notice that even The Amazing One himself blurs the line from time to time.

There are some performers out there who are quite good at doing delicate tasks blindfolded. They do this for entertainment. The unspoken assumption is that they are somehow peeking (i.e., they can't really see without their eyes), but how do they do it??

Thus, when a little girl purports to perform the same trick with supernatural powers, Mr. Randi must be careful when testing her not to spoil the trick for other performers. There are dozens of ways to carry out the trick. When testing the little girl, it may be important to be on the lookout for these various techniques, but it is not necessary to reveal them all.

[Voob]

Just wondering...which David Blaine trick did you reveal?

[Brown]

Originally posted by Voob
Just wondering...which David Blaine trick did you reveal? Biting the quarter in half.

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by Brown
I notice that even The Amazing One himself blurs the line from time to time.

There are some performers out there who are quite good at doing delicate tasks blindfolded. They do this for entertainment. The unspoken assumption is that they are somehow peeking (i.e., they can't really see without their eyes), but how do they do it??

Thus, when a little girl purports to perform the same trick with supernatural powers, Mr. Randi must be careful when testing her not to spoil the trick for other performers. There are dozens of ways to carry out the trick. When testing the little girl, it may be important to be on the lookout for these various techniques, but it is not necessary to reveal them all.

Well I doubt the little girl makes her livilihood from her "seeing" whereas the magicians do.

So it is probably more about money than anything else.

[rustypouch]

Originally posted by T'ai Chi



So it is probably more about money than anything else.

Must resist temptation to respond to troll...

Too late.

I have never gotten any money from performing magic. The most I have recieved is food and drinks from my friends, and second place in a local magic competition.

And yet I become terribly insulted whenever someone reveals a secret.

I don't know if you can fathom this, but there are things in this world which some people consider more important than money.

Besides, P&T reveal secrets all the time, and I still consider the acts where they do as great. Who else could get away with doing the cups and balls with clear cups?

I even know how to bite a quarter in half. Really strong teeth.

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by rustypouch

Must resist temptation to respond to troll...


Blah blah.


I have never gotten any money from performing magic. The most I have recieved is food and drinks from my friends, and second place in a local magic competition.


Obviously it only applies to the professional magicians who do it for their main livilihood.

[magicflute]

Well, this is a question to which everyone has a personal opinion, and here is mine.
I have had to make this decision many times and have found that there is no definitive answer for all situations. What I usually do is weigh factor involved in the circumstance. For example.

Problem: I come across a person that thinks Mr X is for real, yet I know that it is a simple trick he uses.

Scenario 1- If the person is a 'believer' I merely say that it is a magicians trick and I will mention the name of the trick and a magician that performs it and let them research it themselves if they are truly interested. I would not wasted the time revealing to these type of people any magician's methods because my experience with this type has been that you show them how Mr. X does a particular trick and then they say "Well, what about this other miracle he does?" and so on. Should you be able to explain away all of Mr. X's miracles, this type of person would continue with "Well, then what about Mr. Z's miracles???!!!" A waste of time.

Scenario 2- If the person appears to be a reasonable person and they would benefit from some exposure to conjuring methods, I usually duplicate the trick and tell them that I don't use any miracle methods and that neither does Mr. X. A reasonable person can usually get what they need from this and again I don't have to reveal any 'secrets'

Scenario 3- I have run into this one at least 5 times that I can recall. An acquaintance or relative is being victimized by and unscrupulous faker. In this instance I will first try scenario 2 and if I feel that there is still a need, I will reveal some basic slights of hand that might be used by the faker in order to completely expose them. One of those instances I can remember was the mother of a dear friend that was being swindled by the old notorious spoiled egg trick and the burning of cursed money used by some mediums and gypsy frauds. I showed the victim how the hair got into the egg and how the switch of the egg and the money was done. She became convinced and turned the matter over to the police. This exposure was done on a one-on-one basis. In this case I think the exposure was well justified.

While you can probably nitpick some of my solutions, I feel that they are correct for me and that has allowed me to keep peace with my personal ethics.

I certainly do not recommend to simply expose 'secrets' because some people are just curious. If they are that curious, then the proper things to do is direct them to the nearest magic store or website and let them purchase magic books, dvds, tricks etc. This is the course I recommend to non-magicians who might be familiar with the methods but do not have the practice to perform the tricks without revealing the methods.

[NoZed Avenger]

I think that the above is a reasonable approach.

Banachek also had a decent point at the convention that I had not considered: Revealing one method of doing a trick may actually backfire if the fraud in question uses a different method, or is capable of using different methods.

That is, people who think they know 'the' way to do an effect have convinced themselves that they know more than they really do. Thinking you are too smart/know too much to be conned puts you halfway down the path of being fooled.

Showing a person one method of bending spoons may cause that person to actually have -more- faith in a spoon bender if he/she uses a different method of accomplishing the sleight.

N/A

[magicflute]

Very true NoZed!! Sometimes when I am explaining something someone to whom I was demonstrating fakery, they would say "He did not do it quite that way" To this I would answer that "there are many ways of achieving the same results and not just one way". Usually I would do a flurry of forces and force the same card 5 or times by different methods, while explaining that there are many more ways than those I was showing. This usually convinces them that while I may not be doing it exactly, it is still a trick. I also point out that what they remember may not be what actually happened. To demonstrate this I use another trick that illustrates how faulty their memory really is. This is the old ash in the hand trick. Every one swears that I never touch their hands, yet I did! This get them every time.

[Jeff Corey]

I use magic tricks in classes to try to liven things up.
Some are really simple jokes. In a lecture on "hypnotism", sometimes I have a back row slumberbunny. So I say, "Some people are more suggestable than others. You are feeling sleepy, sleeeeepy, sleeeeeeeeeepy."
Then I point to the slumberer and say, "See, it works!"

Today I did the cheesey Princess Card trick when talking about ESP. I selected the one person in the class who said that there was at least a slight possibility of people having ESP.
When it worked and I refused to reveal the secret, he said, "How are we to learn if you don't tell us how the trick was done?"
"Go to the magic shop in Hicksville on 107 near the old Grummans and ask for the Princess Card trick. Six bucks."
So if the ones who want to learn something go there and get a Princes or stripper or Svengali deck or a couple of thumb tips or Chinese Linking Rings and learn about trickery, fine with me.

And I really hope that Teller did that "Second Cummig of Christ" with the equivalent of a creme loaded thumbtip.

[magicflute]

The Pricess card trick is a great one for demonstrating selective memory. I have seen it done to more than one person at a time and they still dont get it!
BTW is the Magic Shop Still open?? I used to hang out there once in a while before I moved to Florida 6 years ago. If they are still open I will stop by next time i am in NY.

Here is a link to the Princess Card trick Online:
http://www.magictricks.com/cards/princessdemo.htm

[Jeff Corey]

Yes, it's still at 940 S. Broadway in Hicksville.

[Randy with a "Y"]

Okay. You're not going to burst into flames or anything like that if you give away the secret to a trick. We're not talking state secrets here. On the other hand, don't you have a vested interest in keeping a secret?

People will only want to watch you because you're interesting and you excite their imagination. It's fun for your audience to think about how you might have made that woman disappear from a sealed box. The moment you tell somebody that there was a trap door in the stage you instantly transform yourself from a "cool person who does intersting things to scantily-clad, nubile young women" to a "sleazy jerk who is willing to spend his free time sawing holes in the floor."

"Real" magic is done with aircraft cable and duct tape. People don't really want to know the reality of it even if they say they do. If you really want people to be interested in what you do, don't tell. If you want people to think of you as a silly person who is willing to spend hours and hours figuring out how to rubber cement dollar bills to the backs of playing cards, go ahead and tell.

If you have a trusted friend/girlfriend/boyfriend/husband/wife who really seems to be interested in performing magic too, there's no reason you shouldn't reveal some secrets to each other. Heck! With some practice and a little luck you COULD end up being the next big act since The Pendragons! :)

[Undodog]

If you have a trusted friend/girlfriend/boyfriend/husband/wife who really seems to be interested in performing magic too, there's no reason you shouldn't reveal some secrets to each other. Heck! With some practice and a little luck you COULD end up being the next big act since The Pendragons! :) [/B]
I tell my girlfriend how stuff is done and I found out recently that she has been stealing my tricks, taking them to where she works and performing them! (probably better than me)
I've solved this now by making her learn an automentalism routine
It will either put her off magic for life (like a parent who makes thier child smoke several packs of cigarettes when they get caught smoking) or we'll amaze family and friends.

[Randy with a "Y"]

Originally posted by Undodog

... I found out recently that she has been stealing my tricks, taking them to where she works and performing them! ...

Wow! Sounds like your girlfriend is really into magic! Pissah! if she's stealing your thunder!

However, if you remember, sometimes it's Charlotte Pendragon who locks Jonathan in the box! They do it both ways. The old stereotype of the MALE magician being the "master" and the female being the "assistant" doesn't necessarily work in today's society. I think your girlfriend thinks that and is trying to tell you, in a subtile way, that the traditional gender rolls "Ain't necessarily so."

Can you develop an act together? Are there some effects that you specialize in and some that she can specialize in? Can you do an effect together?

My wife and I have developed a "double-bareled" version of the "Brainwave" effect.
You have to have two complimentary Brainwave decks. I have the "blue/red" deck and my wife has the "red/blue" deck. The two of us take turns asking "personal" questions trying to "pre-determine" which card the person will think of "in advance".

Get silly with the questions: Ask "What's your shoe size?"... "What is your favorite TV show?"... "What color is your underwear?"... "When was the last time you had sex?" Whatever you can get away with, dependiing on the decorum of your setting.

Once you have sufficiently "sized-up" your victim, ask them to name a card. Each of you whip out your Brainwave decks and point out the fact that SHE has a red deck and YOU have a blue deck. You complege the effect and hold up the two cards together. Point out that you pulled a RED card out of the BLUE deck and she pulled a BLUE card out of a RED deck. The effect is that, before the show, the two of you got together and swapped cards from your decks!

People who have seen us do this have all really liked it. Why don't you see if you and your girlfriend can develop and act together?

[Undodog]

We probably could. She has a theatrical background and encourages me (who is very shy) to perform.
I could actually be Teller to her Penn. :)

The automentalism we're learning is very impressive. I got it from a very old pamphlet. Heres an example of what it looks like (for those who dont know the effect):
Im across the room, facing the other way - someone gives her a randomly chosen playing card...
Me - "You have a card in your mind?"
Her - "I do"
Me - "Is it a red card"
Her - "Yes"
Me - "Is it a diamond?"
Her - "Thats right"
Me - "The 3 of Diamonds"
And I would be right with every question every time.

The only problem I have is that I mainly do close-up. Coins, cards, etc. and not enough stage stuff for a double act.

[Randy with a "Y"]

Sounds like you two are well on the way to developing an act! I say, "Go for it!"

If you are into close-ups and she's into stage effects, it sounds like she'd be a good "medium" and you would be a good "emcee". She asks the questions and you handle the deck of cards, for instance.

I have seen many two-person acts who do a version of "Brainwave" or "Invisible Deck" effect. See if you can work out a routine with that. If you think you'd like to do the double-barelled Brainwave, go ahead.

[Bob Klase]

Who else could get away with doing the cups and balls with clear cups?

Jason Latimer (2003 FISM Grand Prix winner).

[DrMatt]

Originally posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
What's the story with the magician's oath? I know it's explicitly okay to reveal secrets to someone honestly learning the trade. Is it okay to expose a fraud by pointing out conjuring tricks he is using? Is it okay to discuss the means by which a suspected fraud might be doing things?

I know nothing about the magic trade, so give me the basics.

~~ Paul

I've been asking questions of this sort for a while and have not gotten a satisfactory answer. It seems to me that the answer is either a secret--or most magicians haven't really thought about it adequately. Finally, I decided to put my neck on the line and write
www.umich.edu/~fields/magicEditorial.html]This (http://personal.[url) Editorial (LINK)[/URL] .

[magicflute]

Sorry DrMatt, but I don't agree. While I am not against revealing a trick privately if the occasion warrants it, I would not want to do it on a wholesale basis. Rather than give you a lenghty reason I will say this. Magical effects depend on secret methods remaining secret to be entertaining. How do I KNOW this? Most magicians start by trying out tricks on their family and friends. At the begining they wind up exposing some of their effects due to inexperience. Initially your family and friends will enjoy your tricks. Once they learn some of the methods, you can see it in their eyes when you do a new new trick for them. Instead of wonderment and surprise, you get "Oh, you probaly did that with a TT"; with a semi-bored look in their faces. When relating to magic I do not think in terms of "tricks", I think in terms of " methods." Particularly with cards. Hundreds of cardtricks will use the same basic methods. Only the presentation varies. Give away a couple of methods and you just gave away hundreds of tricks. Most practicing magicians know this, they have had thousands of years of experience. :D

[Lavie Enrose]

Originally posted by DrMatt


I've been asking questions of this sort for a while and have not gotten a satisfactory answer. It seems to me that the answer is either a secret--or most magicians haven't really thought about it adequately. Finally, I decided to put my neck on the line and write
www.umich.edu/~fields/magicEditorial.html (http://personal.This Editorial (LINK) .

I can go to a magic shop, and buy a good, simple, cheap magic trick. I can learn to do the trick well, and then perform it for people. After the performace, people will ask me how the trick is done.

I will not tell them how the trick is done, but I will tell them the name of the trick, where I purchased it, and even directions to the magic store if they need them.

Not one person who asked me how the trick was done will even make the effort to go to the magic store, and buy the trick.

[Marian]

Ooo I just had to share something regarding the Princess Card trick. As some of you probably know it's online, and has been for some time.

Well I got a phone call from my mother. I have a long lived family (yay me :D) and my great-aunt who is in her 80s ran across it online. The trick was set up with some cheesy graphics (this was about 4-5 years ago) with wizards and whatnot, and a message that said you had to touch the screen to pick the cards.

Anyway she called my grandfather (also in his 80s) and he couldn't figure it out. My great-aunt got EXTREMELY upset, and unplugged the computer, thinking that perhaps someone could see her through the screen.

Well I took a look at the site, recognized the trick. I called my mom and explained how it was done. (It's such a fun, basic trick :D). Then I called my great-aunt. She told me that she really thought it might be 'black magic' (oh did I mention I also come from an Irish-Catholic family on that side? *grin*)

Anyway, the GOOD part about it was that my great-aunt (who is a wonderful person) felt really foolish with herself. She had worked for the telephone company back in the day of manual switchboards. Technology has just outpaced her, and she felt overwhelmed. She told me she was glad it happened, because she would *never* be superstitious of technology again. It's just a machine, no more...no less. She said she felt a bit like a "foolish old lady" for worrying so much, but we were able to have a great laugh about it.

I'm not a magician by any stretch of the imagination, but I can do a few tricks, and enjoy doing them. My best trick (just to demonstrate how much an amateur I am hehe) is changing a penny into a dime. It cost me under $10 I think, and it's the best trick I've ever bought.