What Does 'Sacred Feminine" Mean to You?

[Limbo]

I'm interested in hearing a variety of impressions. What does the 'Sacred Feminine' mean to YOU, and why. What goes through your head when you hear those words.

Thank You.

[Eyeron]

Women are morally superior to men by virtue of being women and so men should be subservient to women?

[Professor Yaffle]

The what now?

[brodski]

One more virgin for the alter?

[Sun Countess]

I've heard that expression a few times before, and I generally roll my eyes. Like so. :rolleyes: It seems a very new age woo-ish term to me, whether religious woo or not. Most mainstream religions are very male-dominated (duh ;)), and I see it as a way to assert some female-dominated spirituality in its place.

My former SIL buys into this stuff. Women are more spiritual than men because their bodies are in tune with the moon, or some such nonsense. :rolleyes:

Or who knows. Maybe it's actually a term used by male-dominated religions to let women know that they have a sacred position in god's eyes, as the carriers of men's seed. I don't really pay attention.

[Limbo]

I've heard that expression a few times before, and I generally roll my eyes. Like so. :rolleyes: It seems a very new age woo-ish term to me, whether religious woo or not. Most mainstream religions are very male-dominated (duh ;)), and I see it as a way to assert some female-dominated spirituality in its place.

My former SIL buys into this stuff. Women are more spiritual than men because their bodies are in tune with the moon, or some such nonsense. :rolleyes:

Or who knows. Maybe it's actually a term used by male-dominated religions to let women know that they have a sacred position in god's eyes, as the carriers of men's seed. I don't really pay attention.


Ironic. Do you know what picture I found, like right away, when I googled Sun Goddess just now on a hunch?

http://images.quizilla.com/S/SP/SPI/spiritualkatana/1131283458_ddesssmall.jpg

Anyway, carry on. I'm interested in impressions from as many as are willing to give them.

[Pardalis]

What does the 'Sacred Feminine' mean to YOU

Keira Knightley

and why.

She's divine.

What goes through your head when you hear those words.

Alot of blood gets pumped out to go somewhere else.

[Aepervius]

To me, nothing is sacred. So when I hear sacred feminine, I jsut get very very puzzled at what people means.

[dafydd]

It means nothing to me.

[Third Eye Open]

New agey, early 40's women who think their vagina should be worshiped, who feel like they've accomplished something simply by being a woman, and refer to themselves as 'goddesses'.

[soylent]

1) Hacking some wretched Aztec indian woman's stomach up with a flint blade and quickly removing the heart.

2) New age morons.

[John Jones]

I can't get these link thingies down pat.

The Myth of Matriarchal Prehistories by Cynthia Eller is what I thought when I saw the OP.

[Jorghnassen]

Keira Knightley


Flat as a board. When I picture "sacred feminine" it's got to be heavier in the chestal area. But on the general concept, I agree.

[Pardalis]

Flat as a board. When I picture "sacred feminine" it's got to be heavier in the chestal area.

I guess by "sacred feminine", you probably have this in mind?

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a154/perdalis/6a00d83451b05569e201157087ecfd970b-.jpg

:p

[Limbo]

I can't get these link thingies down pat.

The Myth of Matriarchal Prehistories by Cynthia Eller is what I thought when I saw the OP.


So you interpret it in terms of feminism.

Others interpret it in terms of beautiful women like Keira.

Others in terms of 'new-age woo.'

Others in terms of human sacrifice.

Others are completely unfamiliar with the term, like Professor Yaffle.

Very interesting. Keep em coming!

[jsfisher]

Flat as a board. When I picture "sacred feminine" it's got to be heavier in the chestal area. But on the general concept, I agree.

So, you were thinking Chestal Virgins, then?

[fuelair]

Flat as a board. When I picture "sacred feminine" it's got to be heavier in the chestal area. But on the general concept, I agree.

Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks!!:D

[lionking]

New age rubbish.

[fuelair]

And: reasonably well-stated here: http://www.shematrix.com/sacredfem.htm

[Mr Clingford]

The pictures in the thread have been great!

I think of woo and Dan Brown so I laugh.

[Limbo]

And: reasonably well-stated here: http://www.shematrix.com/sacredfem.htm


Well if you're going to educate people, how am I supposed to get an impression of what people think now? I want to know what people around here think now, not what they think after you educate them a little bit. :p

Meh, probably won't make much difference...

...carry on.

[Fiona]

Only thing I can think of is Graves' "White Goddess"

Anything to do with that?

[Limbo]

Any Goddess has to do with it, just as any God has to do with the Sacred Masculine.

[Jorghnassen]

I guess by "sacred feminine", you probably have this in mind?

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a154/perdalis/6a00d83451b05569e201157087ecfd970b-.jpg

:p

I was thinking more along the lines of, say, Salma Hayek than crude prehistoric art... ETA: only a being of extraordinary power could make me envy a starving African baby (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/10/salma-hayek-breastfeeds-a_n_165676.html).

[softstuff]

Sounds like a name for a "feminine hygiene product".
Possibly a rose scented wash.

[paximperium]

I'm interested in hearing a variety of impressions. What does the 'Sacred Feminine' mean to YOU, and why. What goes through your head when you hear those words.
Douche.

[stilicho]

Very interesting. Keep em coming!

The only time I've ever encountered the term was in a Dan Brown novel recommended to me by one of my nieces. As I understood it, this was a term to demystify certain Roman Catholic tenets and to rebrand them as something else.

[MrFrankZito]

The essence of femininity, whatever one might interpret that as being, and its inherent value in society, culture and civilization.

[Limbo]

The essence of femininity, whatever one might interpret that as being, and its inherent value in society, culture and civilization.


Bah...you would have to ruin my Thanksgiving fun with an intelligent answer, wouldn't you Mr Zito. :p

[Terry]

It means nothing to me.

ah, Vienna (dadah-DUDUM)


(me either)

[gentlehorse]

I'm interested in hearing a variety of impressions. What does the 'Sacred Feminine' mean to YOU, and why. What goes through your head when you hear those words.

Thank You.

The first thing that came to mind was an exchange I had with a woman who was convinced that the essence of the universe was feminine: creating, giving birth, etc. Well, it wasn't really an exchange. She did all the talking, intensly leaning toward me, jesticulating aggressively. When she hit second gear (Man bad; Woman good) I said something about hearing my wife calling and made a bee-line for my ice chest.

[Limbo]

The first thing that came to mind was an exchange I had with a woman who was convinced that the essence of the universe was feminine: creating, giving birth, etc. Well, it wasn't really an exchange. She did all the talking, intensly leaning toward me, jesticulating aggressively. When she hit second gear (Man bad; Woman good) I said something about hearing my wife calling and made a bee-line for my ice chest.


The Sacred Feminine has a wrathful aspect...

[shandyjan]

It sounds like an insult, like 'sacred heart'. (Same kind of term as 'jesus wept' I believe!)

[quarky]

Same as the sacred masculine, except feminine. A reaction to men hogging all the sacred stuff for so long. Equal time for the goddess? God, the male, and his male sons and male prophets and male disciples and male popes...

Too much testosterone in religion.

[Damien Evans]

I'm interested in hearing a variety of impressions. What does the 'Sacred Feminine' mean to YOU, and why. What goes through your head when you hear those words.

Thank You.

I think someones been reading too much dan brown

[Limbo]

lol

[Dr. Tobias Fünke]

I'm interested in hearing a variety of impressions. What does the 'Sacred Feminine' mean to YOU, and why. What goes through your head when you hear those words.

Thank You.

I guess I'd have to live in California or some ashram for that to mean anything "real" to me. That's what goes through my head.

[Ausmerican]

What goes through my head is an image of a toilet that has the lid made as an integral part of the bowl and can therefore never be lifted or left up.

[gentlehorse]

The Sacred Feminine has a wrathful aspect...

Well, her emissary sure made me feel as though she was about to pop the top of a fresh can of whup-ass on me. I thought about striking the one-legged Karate Kid pose on her, but if she'd called my bluff I'd have been toast.

[dio]

Little soft, smooth, nice smelling local deities. (They create life. They need worshiping.)

[Akhenaten]

Bene Gesserit

[gentlehorse]

Little soft, smooth, nice smelling local deities. (They create life. They need worshiping.)

Maybe so, but some of their representatives favor Lyle Alzado.

[I Ratant]

Some weird cultish would-be emasculating broad, avoidable by everyone with any self respect.
Probably a two-bagger.

[Lucian]

Sacred feminine? ME! Claims that anyone or anything else represents the sacred feminine are New Age guano. And heresy.

[BardKesnit]

The essence of femininity, whatever one might interpret that as being, and its inherent value in society, culture and civilization.

You put it better than I could have.

[pakeha]

I'm interested in hearing a variety of impressions. What does the 'Sacred Feminine' mean to YOU, and why. What goes through your head when you hear those words.

Thank You.

What does 'Sacred Feminine' mean to ME?
Well, it's a translation from the German, of course, but I was never clear whether it was was about prehistoric matriarchies and underground shrines in Malta or another excuse for German cultural jive, as in "Kinder, Kirche und Kuche". Sorry about the lack of umlaut.

What goes through my head when I hear those words?
When I hear them or when I read them?
When I hear them, I start to remember changes in the work schedule for today, changes which require my immediate attention.
When I read them, I think of Robert Graves.

O Pharaoh- nice one.

[pakeha]

Some weird cultish would-be emasculating broad, avoidable by everyone with any self respect.
Probably a two-bagger.

That one was new to me, I Ratant.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=two-bagger

Putting the E...

[Sword_Of_Truth]

What does the 'Sacred Feminine' mean to YOU,

Hooters.

and why.

Should be obvious.

[the_eye]

It's total nonsense, propagated by bunch of angry, man-starved feminists.

[Polaris]

Flat as a board. When I picture "sacred feminine" it's got to be heavier in the chestal area. But on the general concept, I agree.

And my competition just got smaller.

[Emerson Street]

It definitely sounds like a feminine hygiene product, for 'the intimate area'.

[Akhenaten]

Some weird cultish would-be emasculating broad, avoidable by everyone with any self respect.
Probably a two-bagger.





I chortled amusedly for some time. TY

[gtc]

Something to do with porn stars?

[Dave Rogers]

'Sacred Feminine', for me, conjures up the image of someone called Chrysanthemum who smells faintly of Patchouli oil, works part-time in a shop that sells colourful ornaments and cheap jewelry, tries to pretend they weren't made by Malaysian five-year-olds who are paid two cents a day, and feels that everyone should respect her for her lack of external genitalia but is generally too wet to do anything but sigh over the fact that, actually, nobody does.

Dave

[Sledge]

I've tried for about a day now, and that phrase means nothing to me. All it does is slightly irritate me by being incomplete. "Sacred feminine WHAT?" my brain screams each time.

[NoZed Avenger]

Lucian, obviously.

[quarky]

What goes through my head is an image of a toilet that has the lid made as an integral part of the bowl and can therefore never be lifted or left up.

perfect

[I Ratant]

That one was new to me, I Ratant.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=two-bagger

Putting the E...
.
I do believe I heard that one first from an R. Dangerfield. :)

[CriticalSock]

I think this poem I wrote sums it up nicely:

--+-- The Girl with the Scar on her Arm --+--

Beestung lips and a
shock of blond hair,
trouble free eyes:
You are the perfect
festival girl.

With your expensively torn
rebel top and your flowery
laced Dr Martins and that
blush of defiant inexperience.
with a flash the sun
shines through the clouds.

A half empty bottle arcs
high above the crowd
toward her innocent
and unaware.
It hits the shoulder
of the guy in front.

She laughs and shrieks
with her friends
but there's a momentary
blink of concern.
The crowd surges restlessly
and she looks so small.

I want to protect her
this chance caught glance
girl who I will never meet,
doesn't even know I'm there.
She is surely too fragile
for this roughhouse place.

But I'm taught a valuable
lesson when she raises
her hands in supplication
to the next stage god.
And I see a livid scar
running up her arm.

This is not an innocent
newly thrust into a harsh world
my subconscious simple conception
is once again, as ever, wrong.
This is not a vulnerable girl,
I am not a hero.

I have to accept that
this is her world
this is her time,
and it is me who is
out of place and lost
in this strange crowd.

And that chivalry is not
only outmoded,
but unwanted.

Oh wait! Sacred! Not Scarred! Damn I need to get my eyes checked!!

[Soapy Sam]

Is it the bit that launched a thousand hips and burned the topless towers of iliac?
Or is that the female sacrum?

[Dancing David]

I'm interested in hearing a variety of impressions. What does the 'Sacred Feminine' mean to YOU, and why. What goes through your head when you hear those words.

Thank You.

My wife is divine, from her all blessings flow...

[Dancing David]

It's total nonsense, propagated by bunch of angry, man-starved feminists.

Hey some of us are male idolizers who really really like women, I find the transcendental in sex with my wife...

[quarky]

yeah, me too.

(tell her quarky says hi.)

[Beerina]

New agey, early 40's women who think their vagina should be worshiped, who feel like they've accomplished something simply by being a woman, and refer to themselves as 'goddesses'.

Sounds like a plan. Where R they?

[Dancing David]

yeah, me too.

(tell her quarky says hi.)

She says I am a better worshipper! :p

[quarky]

She says I am a better worshipper! :p

Glad you have a sense of humor. That was rather crass of me.

[Chimera]

This reminds me of a personal story.

A few years ago, I was invited to a Native American sweatlodge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweat_lodge). I thought it would be a cool experience even though I don't believe in that sort of thing, so I planned to go. Then I was asked, "Oh, by the way...you're not on your period then, are you?" When I said I would be, I was told I couldn't go. It was a compliment, I was told, because the energy during a woman's menses was so powerful that it would somehow throw off the balance of the sweatlodge. :rolleyes:

[TimCallahan]

The sacred feminine is a valid concept to the degree that it involves Indian temples displaying yoni symbols and other such phenomena. However, the same religions also usually have a sacred masculine, displayng promenant lingum symbols as well. It's interesting to note that a temple to Hera on one of the Greek islands featured enormous stone phalli. In other words, the genuine ancient concept of the sacred feminine also had a place for the sacred masculine, as a complimentary principle.

What happens with such ideas as the sacred feminine is that they become socio-political propaganda footballs. It's not unlike the noble savage, or as Michael Shermer calls it, the "beautiful people" myth. The American Indians are often portrayed as the beautiful people, a concept that doesn't jibe with the light pollution near Mount Palomar from all the neon from the glitzy Pala Indian casinos.

One unfortunate aspect of concepts like the beautiful people myth and the sacred feminine is that it forces people to jump through hoops. For example, the idea surfaces that it was wrong to take the land away from the Indians and commit genocide against them, because they were the beautiful people. Then, when they turn out to be as likely to pollute as the rest of us, people who subscribed to the beautiful people myth feel betrayed.

Likewise, the "sacred feminine" implies that sexism on the part us nasty males is wrong because women are much better, morally and ethically, than men. Then, when women in positions of power act a lot like men in positions of power, there's a great disillusionment.

So, my take on these issues is that it was wrong to take the land away from the Indians because it was their land, and it's wrong to descriminate against people based on race and sex, regardless of whether such people are noble, ordinary or jerks. The "sacred feminine" as either New Age woo or feminist propaganda, while understandable, is unfortunate and detracts from the valid concept of sexual egalitarianism.

[Elizabeth I]

It's total nonsense, propagated by bunch of angry, man-starved feminists.

Gosh, and you wonder why they're angry? And could it be you're just a little bit pissed that none of them seem to be starved for you?

The nerve of them...rejecting your almighty penis! :rolleyes:

[Elizabeth I]

The sacred feminine is a valid concept to the degree that it involves Indian temples displaying yoni symbols and other such phenomena. However, the same religions also usually have a sacred masculine, displayng promenant lingum symbols as well. It's interesting to note that a temple to Hera on one of the Greek islands featured enormous stone phalli. In other words, the genuine ancient concept of the sacred feminine also had a place for the sacred masculine, as a complimentary principle.

What happens with such ideas as the sacred feminine is that they become socio-political propaganda footballs. It's not unlike the noble savage, or as Michael Shermer calls it, the "beautiful people" myth. The American Indians are often portrayed as the beautiful people, a concept that doesn't jibe with the light pollution near Mount Palomar from all the neon from the glitzy Pala Indian casinos.

One unfortunate aspect of concepts like the beautiful people myth and the sacred feminine is that it forces people to jump through hoops. For example, the idea surfaces that it was wrong to take the land away from the Indians and commit genocide against them, because they were the beautiful people. Then, when they turn out to be as likely to pollute as the rest of us, people who subscribed to the beautiful people myth feel betrayed.

Likewise, the "sacred feminine" implies that sexism on the part us nasty males is wrong because women are much better, morally and ethically, than men. Then, when women in positions of power act a lot like men in positions of power, there's a great disillusionment.

So, my take on these issues is that it was wrong to take the land away from the Indians because it was their land, and it's wrong to descriminate against people based on race and sex, regardless of whether such people are noble, ordinary or jerks. The "sacred feminine" as either New Age woo or feminist propaganda, while understandable, is unfortunate and detracts from the valid concept of sexual egalitarianism.

Thank you, TC.

[Limbo]

In other words, the genuine ancient concept of the sacred feminine also had a place for the sacred masculine, as a complimentary principle.


In your opinion does Christianity have a place for the Sacred Masculine, in relation to the Sacred Feminine as a complimentary principle?

[TimCallahan]

In your opinion does Christianity have a place for the Sacred Masculine, in relation to the Sacred Feminine?

I think one reason for feminists latching onto the sacred feminine is that Protestant Christianity has no place for a female principle of any meaningful sort. Both Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox Marian imagery establishes a feminine principle of an implicitly submissive sort. Otherwise, I would see Christianity as implicitly masculine in a muted sort of way. I wouldn't expect to find a Christian church flanked by giant stone phalli.

The really rabidly anti-feminist thrust in Christianity, I would say, is limited to fundamentalism, which, not surprisingly, anathamatizes te idea of a sacred feminine. Oddly enough, in the process of opposing feminism, such women as Beverly LaHaye and Phyllis Schalfly rose to positions of considerable power in their movement.

[jakesteele]

Sun Countess;5349098]I've heard that expression a few times before, and I generally roll my eyes. Like so. :rolleyes: It seems a very new age woo-ish term to me, whether religious woo or not. Most mainstream religions are very male-dominated (duh ;)), and I see it as a way to assert some female-dominated spirituality in its place.

http://www.caroun.com/Research/Culture/ArchetypalWoman.html

Fertility goddess figurines are among the most primitive artistic works and they have been found all areas of settlement by ancient human.

The existence of such figurines tells us of the prevalence of widespread beliefs on the power of fertility. The earliest fertility figurines are devoid of individual characteristics, appearing as nudes with accentuated female organs and, at times, nursing infants. They symbolized the power of fertility. Later figurines reveal greater details of beliefs about women, standards of beauty, dress, hairdo and jewelry.

That's why it's called mother nature instead of father nature. Of course, there's always Father Time:

"There is no God or Goddess directly associated with time per se in the annals of Greek mythology."

I think men get the short end of the stick, so to speak.

[Limbo]

I think one reason for feminists latching onto the sacred feminine is that Protestant Christianity has no place for a female principle of any meaningful sort. Both Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox Marian imagery establishes a feminine principle of an implicitly submissive sort. Otherwise, I would see Christianity as implicitly masculine in a muted sort of way. I wouldn't expect to find a Christian church flanked by giant stone phalli.

The really rabidly anti-feminist thrust in Christianity, I would say, is limited to fundamentalism, which, not surprisingly, anathamatizes te idea of a sacred feminine. Oddly enough, in the process of opposing feminism, such women as Beverly LaHaye and Phyllis Schalfly rose to positions of considerable power in their movement.


If words such as mediatrix and co-redemptrix and creatrix were brought front and center in religious discourse, do you think that could weaken Christian fundamentalism?

I think it could help. But probably not if people who bring such words forward are attacked by the ignorant on all fronts, labeled as 'woo-woo feminists' by atheists and as 'heretics' by fundamentalists.

[gtc]

If words such as mediatrix and co-redemptrix and creatrix were brought front and center in religious discourse, do you think that could weaken Christian fundamentalism?

I think it could help. But probably not if people who bring such words forward are attacked by the ignorant on all fronts, labeled as 'woo-woo feminists' by atheists and as 'heretics' by fundamentalists.

Both atheists and fundamentalists will reject the use of those terms because they are not in accord with their religious beliefs (or lack of religious beliefs).

To the atheist these terms have as little content as masculine 'mediators', 'redemptors' and 'creators' (or for that matter gender neutral or both gendered or what not).

To the fundamentalis, these terms are simply not in accord with their own beliefs.

If you want either side to embrace your religious views then you have to convince them. Simply asserting your own religious views is unlikely to be enough.

[Limbo]

Both atheists and fundamentalists will reject the use of those terms because they are not in accord with their religious beliefs (or lack of religious beliefs).

To the atheist these terms have as little content as masculine 'mediators', 'redemptors' and 'creators' (or for that matter gender neutral or both gendered or what not).

To the fundamentalis, these terms are simply not in accord with their own beliefs.

If you want either side to embrace your religious views then you have to convince them. Simply asserting your own religious views is unlikely to be enough.



Gotta learn just how ignorant people are first. That's what this thread is about.

My conclusion, most people around here are profoundly ignorant and many are prone to knee-jerk bigoted judgments. Have you ever tried to educate bigots?

"The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye. The more light you shine on it, the more it will contract." -Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.

[krayon]

ah, Vienna (dadah-DUDUM)

Thank you for quoting what is possibly the best song ever.

As to the original question, the concept smells like gender essentialism.

[Slayhamlet]

The first thing to strike me about this peculiar phrase is the distinct lack of a noun. As such it means about as much to me as "colorful happy", or any other two adjectives you should happen to stick together.

[six7s]

What goes through my head is an image of a toilet that has the lid made as an integral part of the bowl and can therefore never be lifted or left up.perfectI'd concur... if the toilet had no flusher

[gtc]

Gotta learn just how ignorant people are first. That's what this thread is about.

My conclusion, most people around here are profoundly ignorant and many are prone to knee-jerk bigoted judgments. Have you ever tried to educate bigots?

"The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye. The more light you shine on it, the more it will contract." -Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.

My conclusion is that very few people were taking you seriously and even fewer would have if they had realised that you were trying to sell them on your religion. Particularly as you seem so coy about actually telling us what it is you believe and why we should believe it too.

[quarky]

I'd concur... if the toilet had no flusher

Ah, yes. The water-saving, extra-green icon of the civilized union.

[Tricky]

Sacred Feminine? Isn't that the split-off of the Catholic Church, popular in Hispanic countries, that worships Mary instead of Jesus?

[Darth Rotor]

It sounds like an insult, like 'sacred heart'. (Same kind of term as 'jesus wept' I believe!)
FWIW: Jesus wept isn't an insult, it's mostly used as an exclamatory, mostly to express dismay or disbelief.

The Sacred Feminine: well, Dan Brown didn't convince me, but that linke Fuelair gave us amused me, particularly a few of the pictures.

DR

[Darth Rotor]

I think one reason for feminists latching onto the sacred feminine is that Protestant Christianity has no place for a female principle of any meaningful sort.
Which is why some Protestant denominations have female clergy, of course. ;)

Both Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox Marian imagery establishes a feminine principle of an implicitly submissive sort.

I wouldn't expect to find a Christian church flanked by giant stone phalli.
The old fertility gods (Priapus) were "pagan" so no, they would not. (Funny, when I visited Ephesus years ago, one of the souveniers I bought was about half a dozen Priapus key chains to send to my sister and her friends at college. They got rave reviews, and "Can we meet the model" inquiries in the next mail call).

A partly formed thought for you here:

Modern feminism seems to be focused on accruing power within the old "world of men" social model, whereas old time feminism was focused on the power of the hearth. (I'd need to look up a bit more on matriarchies to try and complete this thought). Perhaps your citing Scahfly points to there being more than one model to female empowerment.

DR

[six7s]

Sacred Feminine? Isn't that the split-off of the Catholic Church, popular in Hispanic countries, that worships Mary instead of Jesus?Mary worship (some would say idolotary) isn't confined to the Hispanics... as noted by Richard Dawkins in The God Delusion (http://books.google.com/books?id=yq1xDpicghkC&pg=PA35&dq=%22Pope+John+Paul+II+created+more+saints+than+a ll+his+predecessors+of+the+past+several+centuries+ put+together.+And+he+had+a+special+affinity+with+t he+Virgin+Mary%22#v=onepage&q=%22Pope%20John%20Paul%20II%20created%20more%20sa ints%20than%20all%20his%20predecessors%20of%20the% 20past%20several%20centuries%20put%20together.%20A nd%20he%20had%20a%20special%20affinity%20with%20th e%20Virgin%20Mary%22&f=false), there's a veritable pantheon of Marys, venerated in Japan, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Egypt, Portugal, France, Belgium (can we say 'Belgium' in this forum?) and, of course, Ireland


Pope John Paul II created more saints than all his predecessors of the past several centuries put together. And he had a special affinity with the Virgin Mary.<snip/>... he suffered an assassination attempt in Rome, and attributed his survival to intervention by Our Lady of Fatima: 'A maternal hand guided the bullet'. One cannot help but wonder why she didn't guide it to miss him altogether. Others might think the team of surgeons who operated on him for six hours deserved at least a share of the credit. But perhaps their hands too were maternally guided. The relevant point is that it wasn't just Our Lady, who in the Pope's opinion guided the bullet, but specifically Our Lady of Fatima. Presumably Our Lady of Lourdes, Our Lady of Guadeloupe, Our Lady of Medjugorje, Our Lady of Akita, Our Lady of Zeitoun, Our Lady of Garabandal, and Our Lady of Knock, were busy on other errands at the time.:p

[Piscivore]

Natalie Portman
:duck:

I... I mean My wife.

[TimCallahan]

The Virgin of Guadalupe is interesting, since she is probably a Christianized version of the Aztec goddess Tonatzin. However, whether this bit of syncretism was sponsored by the church as a way to win over the Aztecs or was an Aztec ploy to secretly worship Tonatzin is hard to say.

[Darth Rotor]

The Virgin of Guadalupe is interesting, since she is probably a Christianized version of the Aztec goddess Tonatzin. However, whether this bit of syncretism was sponsored by the church as a way to win over the Aztecs or was an Aztec ploy to secretly worship Tonatzin is hard to say.
That bit of syncretism is alive and well.

IIRC, Our Lady of Guadalupe is officially, in the canon of the RCC, the patron saint of the Americas, and of the nation of Mexico. (Given how the Italians and Popes viewed the world for much of the Age of Sail/Colonial period, this makes sense).

While fact checking, I tripped over something of interest: Saint Rosa of Lima (Peru) has a notable standing, from primacy of place:
From a Catholic web site: ttp://www.americancatholic.org/features/saints/Patrons.aspx

The first canonized saint of the New World has one characteristic of all saints—the suffering of opposition—and another characteristic which is more for admiration than for imitation—excessive practice of mortification.
She was born to parents of Spanish descent in Lima, Peru, at a time when South America was in its first century of evangelization. She seems to have taken Catherine of Siena (April 29) as a model, in spite of the objections and ridicule of parents and friends.
Mary worship (some would say idolotary) isn't confined to the Hispanics
The degree of veneration, and that which passes from veneration to worship, can be at the same time interesting and disturbing.

DR

[six7s]

Ah, yes. The water-saving, extra-green icon of the civilized union.Green? What's in your diet? :eye-poppi

[Niggle]

I think one reason for feminists latching onto the sacred feminine is that Protestant Christianity has no place for a female principle of any meaningful sort. Both Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox Marian imagery establishes a feminine principle of an implicitly submissive sort. Otherwise, I would see Christianity as implicitly masculine in a muted sort of way. I wouldn't expect to find a Christian church flanked by giant stone phalli.

The really rabidly anti-feminist thrust in Christianity, I would say, is limited to fundamentalism, which, not surprisingly, anathamatizes te idea of a sacred feminine. Oddly enough, in the process of opposing feminism, such women as Beverly LaHaye and Phyllis Schalfly rose to positions of considerable power in their movement.

Not so much. The reason Mary is venerated is for her complete submission to the will of God. In the RCC, women are expected to emulate that aspect in all things and be completely submissive to men in their aspect as representatives of the male God. The guilt of Eve is not redeemed by the actions of Mary, and women are still seen as unclean and impure.

[Darth Rotor]

The guilt of Eve is not redeemed by the actions of Mary, and women are still seen as unclean and impure.
As are men.

As I understand the doctrine in re the dogmatic declaration of the Immaculate Conception, a pure vessel was necessary for the Holy Spirit to be carried in, Mary was made that pure vessel, had the choice to say no, but didn't, she said yes (hey, the archangel was handsome and charming, but that's not in the dogma) and so on to the virgin birth.

DR

[Niggle]

Gotta learn just how ignorant people are first. That's what this thread is about.

My conclusion, most people around here are profoundly ignorant and many are prone to knee-jerk bigoted judgments. Have you ever tried to educate bigots?

"The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of the eye. The more light you shine on it, the more it will contract." -Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.

Being ignorant of your opinion on the matter makes atheists bigots? Wow. That's some arrogance you've got going on there.

'Cuz that's all you've got. An opinion. You're entitled to it. Others are entitled to disagree, especially if you can't provide evidence of its truth. Which you haven't. You've just started slinging insults. Way to make your point.

How about you try being civil for once?

[Niggle]

As are men.

As I understand the doctrine in re the dogmatic declaration of the Immaculate Conception, a pure vessel was necessary for the Holy Spirit to be carried in, Mary was made that pure vessel, had the choice to say no, but didn't, she said yes (hey, the archangel was handsome and charming, but that's not in the dogma) and so on to the virgin birth.

DR

Yeah, which is why Mary was suddenly also born by Immaculate Conception (that's what that phrase refers to, not the conception of Jesus, BTW, for anyone who doesn't know RCC doctrine). If she was going to be the pure vessel for the son of God, she couldn't have been tainted with the corruption of sex, even at her creation.

Yeah, men are also seen as impure, to a certain extent, but not to the same degree as women. Women used to be barred from Church while menstruating. A couple on nuns in my elementary school tried to reinstitute the practice when they found out that some of the older girls (seventh and eighth grades) were mestruating already. The new pastor told them to cut it out, since it wouldn't be beneficial to deny such girls the cleansing presence of the Lord. No, I'm not kidding, I'm afraid.

I know there's an old Jewish tradition of women having to have a ritual bath to cleanse themselves after their periods before they could re-enter the synagogue. I'm guessing the Catholic attitude is a carry-over from that.

[Darth Rotor]

Yeah, men are also seen as impure, to a certain extent, but not to the same degree as women. You just switched tenses. Have you been inside a catholic church lately? You may not be up to date on this.
Women used to be barred from Church while menstruating.
Is that in current doctrine?
A couple on nuns in my elementary school tried to reinstitute the practice when they found out that some of the older girls (seventh and eighth grades) were mestruating already. The new pastor told them to cut it out, since it wouldn't be beneficial to deny such girls the cleansing presence of the Lord.
How long ago was this?
No, I'm not kidding, I'm afraid.
I believe the anecdote, sadly.
I know there's an old Jewish tradition of women having to have a ritual bath to cleanse themselves after their periods before they could re-enter the synagogue. I'm guessing the Catholic attitude is a carry-over from that.
Was, rather than is, seems more accurate.

I'll ask my wife if she's aware of any doctrinal rule on this. To my knowledge, there isn't one.

DR

[jimbob]

Only thing I can think of is Graves' "White Goddess"

Anything to do with that?

That's what I thought too.

[sthomson]

I took a class as an undergrad called "Visions of the Divine Feminine", which was mostly about Tantric mythology both classically and in the present, commercially. When I hear "Sacred Feminine", I think of the principle of the yoni and the lingam, and the Hindu philosophy that man and woman are part of the same whole, and that each person has his or her roles in the relationship. As my professor taught us, women are revered, which is why they still have to do all the household chores and the child-rearing while the men sit around and chew Paan. That's their divine role, you see. I also think of my professor's assertion that all married women are whores, because he knows if he buys his wife a necklace then she'll be in "a romantic mood".

It also makes me think of Kali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali), who was pretty kick-ass.

Edited to add: Some of this post is really reductive and for that I apologize. I understand that Hinduism and specifically Tantric philosophy is a lot more complicated than what I took away from an intro course, and that even here I am only posting negative aspects and not the cool stuff.

[godless dave]

It means nothing to me.

[six7s]

Yeah, which is why Mary was suddenly also born by Immaculate Conception (that's what that phrase refers to, not the conception of Jesus, BTW, for anyone who doesn't know RCC doctrine). If she was going to be the pure vessel for the son of God, she couldn't have been tainted with the corruption of sex, even at her creation.Not quite... at least according to official RC dogma, the 'method' of her birth was irrelevant - its how she lived her life - in a perpetual state of motion grace:

www.catholic.com/library/ Immaculate Conception and Assumption (http://www.catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp)The Marian doctrines are, for Fundamentalists, among the most bothersome of the Catholic Church’s teachings. In this tract we’ll examine briefly two Marian doctrines that Fundamentalist writers frequently object to—the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption.

The Immaculate Conception
It’s important to understand what the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is and what it is not. Some people think the term refers to Christ’s conception in Mary’s womb without the intervention of a human father; but that is the Virgin Birth. Others think the Immaculate Conception means Mary was conceived "by the power of the Holy Spirit," in the way Jesus was, but that, too, is incorrect. The Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived without original sin or its stain—that’s what "immaculate" means: without stain. The essence of original sin consists in the deprivation of sanctifying grace, and its stain is a corrupt nature. Mary was preserved from these defects by God’s grace; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings.
<snip/>

NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004

IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004

[six7s]

It means nothing to me.Wrong thread? Vienna is ⇒ ⇒ thataway ⇒ ⇒ (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=10542)

[Tricky]

Mary worship (some would say idolotary) isn't confined to the Hispanics... as noted by Richard Dawkins in The God Delusion (http://books.google.com/books?id=yq1xDpicghkC&pg=PA35&dq=%22Pope+John+Paul+II+created+more+saints+than+a ll+his+predecessors+of+the+past+several+centuries+ put+together.+And+he+had+a+special+affinity+with+t he+Virgin+Mary%22#v=onepage&q=%22Pope%20John%20Paul%20II%20created%20more%20sa ints%20than%20all%20his%20predecessors%20of%20the% 20past%20several%20centuries%20put%20together.%20A nd%20he%20had%20a%20special%20affinity%20with%20th e%20Virgin%20Mary%22&f=false), there's a veritable pantheon of Marys, venerated in Japan, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Egypt, Portugal, France, Belgium (can we say 'Belgium' in this forum?) and, of course, Ireland

:p
I knew when I said 'popular in Hispanic countries' that the worship wasn't confined to Hispanic cultures, but I have read lately that the Catholic Church is getting very worried that some of the splits, particularly in South Mexico and surrounding areas, are drifting quite far away from the sort of dogma that they consider consistant with Catholocism. But thanks for the reference. Never hurts to get Dawkin's take on things.

[six7s]

I knew when I said 'popular in Hispanic countries' that the worship wasn't confined to Hispanic culturesYou knew that I knew that you knew that ;)

...the Catholic Church is getting very worried that some of the splits, particularly in South Mexico and surrounding areas, are drifting quite far away from the sort of dogma that they consider consistant with Catholocism.Worried? Hmmm... Concerned? Maybe... My hunch is that the word is 'prepared' - bearing in mind that spin, hype and good, ol' fashioned BS were - if not invented - certainly refined to the point of being art forms by the Vatican...

Never hurts to get Dawkin's take on things.For small values of 'never', yes ;)

[Robin]

I'm interested in hearing a variety of impressions. What does the 'Sacred Feminine' mean to YOU, and why. What goes through your head when you hear those words.

Thank You.
I am totally impresssed that after three pages nobody has said "Holy Cow!"

[Niggle]

You just switched tenses. Have you been inside a catholic church lately? You may not be up to date on this.

Is that in current doctrine?

How long ago was this?

I believe the anecdote, sadly.

Was, rather than is, seems more accurate.

I'll ask my wife if she's aware of any doctrinal rule on this. To my knowledge, there isn't one.

DR

Been awhile, I'll admit, maybe thirty-odd years, since the incident in question. I don't know that it was "doctrine" at the time, but then, I wasn't in a position to question that (one did NOT question the nuns, unless one wanted a(nother) wooden pointer broken over oneself). I just know that the attempt was made, and I've read that it was done that way in past history, late-medieval/early Renaissance, I think. I doubt it's current doctrine, but it wouldn't surprise me if some congregations tried to pull it off anyway. Most of the rest of my family is still Catholic, and I was still trying to keep track of the Pope's views as late as Benedict's turn, so I'm not completely out of touch.

Re: the Jewish ritual bath. Agreed that it may have been based on that concept originally. Believe it or not, the book I read about it in was fairly recent (late 90s publication), described as a current practice but optional. I don't recall if it was described as belonging to a specific "version" of Judaism (e.g., Reform, Conservative, etc.). I probably still have the book if you're interested.

[Niggle]

Not quite... at least according to official RC dogma, the 'method' of her birth was irrelevant - its how she lived her life - in a perpetual state of motion grace:

www.catholic.com/library/ Immaculate Conception and Assumption (http://www.catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp)

Ah, thanks! I knew that was wrong as I wrote it, but I couldn't for the life of me think of the proper explanation. Yes, it's been a long time since my Religious Education classes. Thank Dog.

[Darth Rotor]

Been awhile, I'll admit, maybe thirty-odd years, since the incident in question. I don't know that it was "doctrine" at the time, but then, I wasn't in a position to question that (one did NOT question the nuns, unless one wanted a(nother) wooden pointer broken over oneself). I just know that the attempt was made, and I've read that it was done that way in past history, late-medieval/early Renaissance, I think.
While I don't doubt the medieval events, my wife (late forties) never ran into that, was born and raised Catholic, went to Catholic school for about half that time.
I doubt it's current doctrine, but it wouldn't surprise me if some congregations tried to pull it off anyway. Now, or before Vatican II? That council seemed a watershed in terms of some cranial removal from rectal areas, in some matters.

Re: the Jewish ritual bath. Agreed that it may have been based on that concept originally. Believe it or not, the book I read about it in was fairly recent (late 90s publication), described as a current practice but optional. I don't recall if it was described as belonging to a specific "version" of Judaism (e.g., Reform, Conservative, etc.). I probably still have the book if you're interested.
Not that interested, as I don't think I'll be converting to Judaism any time soon, nor getting a sex change. :D Thanks anyway.

DR

[justcharlie09]

Honestly?

I had to stop by this thread because it reminded me of a car in front of me the other day...

It was a Prius which boasted bumper stickers suggesting that we all save Tibet.

The immediate image in my mind was that of a 20's to 30's-ish woman with dreadlocks, listening to a Lilith Fair Live compilation, wearing organic clothing and birkenstocks headed off to one of the following destinations: a) a holistic medicine healer session b) a Sedona retreat to commune with nature and other cultists c) the Vagina Monologues d) a Wiccan get-together e) a graduate school class on social work, anthropology, psychology, or perhaps, women's studies f) a protest of some PETA-approved target of scorn g) the local Whole Foods or farmer's market....

Or perhaps some combination of those listed above.

....

Which is in contrast to the other vehicle I saw driving along....representing the Sanctimonious Feminine... an American-made van with advertisements for direct marketing schemes along with praying cartoons, a stick-figure list of all family members including 6 kids and 3 dogs and commentary on important things like the rapture, real men loving Jesus, and suchlike.

The individual I pictured for this vehicle was white, lower middle-class, wife to a gun owner, likely overweight, high-school educated, Republican, dressed in attire purchased exclusively at Walmart, and currently being accosted by at least 3 of the 6 stick figure kids pictured on the back of the van who were likely demanding a trip to McDonald's before choir and/or Bible Camp which happens to be shortly before the two eldest boys football practice (which she likely considers very important to their future because it represents her only shot at a "college savings plan"...nevermind the fact the kids lack talent and couldn't get a scholarship if they found a lamp with a genie under the bench at practice).

....

I avoid both cars, moving to lanes furthest away from each and briefly ponder how nice it would be to live in a community were I could walk, bike, or ride a light rail in place of driving...and now nice, also, it would be if people didn't try to advertise their political and other affiliations on their vehicles...leaving my mind to wander...

[justcharlie09]

Now, or before Vatican II? That council seemed a watershed in terms of some cranial removal from rectal areas, in some matters.

DR

OT, but, have to say it: Wonder how many hundreds of years will pass before Vatican III and the final installment of the surgery to reverse the damage of the RCC's chronic case of Cranial-Rectal Inversion Syndrome...

Don't get me wrong, it was a step in the right direction back in the 60's... but still miles worth of steps to go....

[quarky]

Honestly?

I had to stop by this thread because it reminded me of a car in front of me the other day...

It was a Prius which boasted bumper stickers suggesting that we all save Tibet.

The immediate image in my mind was that of a 20's to 30's-ish woman with dreadlocks, listening to a Lilith Fair Live compilation, wearing organic clothing and birkenstocks headed off to one of the following destinations: a) a holistic medicine healer session b) a Sedona retreat to commune with nature and other cultists c) the Vagina Monologues d) a Wiccan get-together e) a graduate school class on social work, anthropology, psychology, or perhaps, women's studies f) a protest of some PETA-approved target of scorn g) the local Whole Foods or farmer's market....

Or perhaps some combination of those listed above.

....

Which is in contrast to the other vehicle I saw driving along....representing the Sanctimonious Feminine... an American-made van with advertisements for direct marketing schemes along with praying cartoons, a stick-figure list of all family members including 6 kids and 3 dogs and commentary on important things like the rapture, real men loving Jesus, and suchlike.

The individual I pictured for this vehicle was white, lower middle-class, wife to a gun owner, likely overweight, high-school educated, Republican, dressed in attire purchased exclusively at Walmart, and currently being accosted by at least 3 of the 6 stick figure kids pictured on the back of the van who were likely demanding a trip to McDonald's before choir and/or Bible Camp which happens to be shortly before the two eldest boys football practice (which she likely considers very important to their future because it represents her only shot at a "college savings plan"...nevermind the fact the kids lack talent and couldn't get a scholarship if they found a lamp with a genie under the bench at practice).

....

I avoid both cars, moving to lanes furthest away from each and briefly ponder how nice it would be to live in a community were I could walk, bike, or ride a light rail in place of driving...and now nice, also, it would be if people didn't try to advertise their political and other affiliations on their vehicles...leaving my mind to wander...



Your post made me want to get some changeable bumper stickers. I enjoy confusing some people.

[justcharlie09]

Your post made me want to get some changeable bumper stickers. I enjoy confusing some people.

I've often thought of getting completely conflicting bumperstickers and symbols for the back of the car.

How about this combination:

Freedom rings hanging from the front mirror along with a rosary. On the back of the car a Sarah Palin 2012 sticker next to a Darwin fish emblem, next to a Buddhist swastika....all topped off by a family of no less than ten stick-figure kids, a mickey antenna ball, some playboy mudflaps...and of course...truck balls.

:D

[Dancing David]

Pogue Colonel: What is that you've got written on your helmet?
Private Joker: "Born to Kill", sir.
Pogue Colonel: You write "Born to Kill" on your helmet and you wear a peace button. What's that supposed to be, some kind of sick joke?
Private Joker: No, sir.
Pogue Colonel: You'd better get your head and your ass wired together, or I will take a giant **** on you.
Private Joker: Yes, sir.
Pogue Colonel: Now answer my question or you'll be standing tall before the man.
Private Joker: I think I was trying to suggest something about the duality of man, sir.
Pogue Colonel: The what?
Private Joker: The duality of man. The Jungian thing, sir.
Pogue Colonel: Whose side are you on, son?
Private Joker: Our side, sir.
Pogue Colonel: Don't you love your country?
Private Joker: Yes, sir.
Pogue Colonel: Then how about getting with the program? Why don't you jump on the team and come on in for the big win?
Private Joker: Yes, sir.
Pogue Colonel: Son, all I've ever asked of my marines is that they obey my orders as they would the word of God. We are here to help the Vietnamese, because inside every gook there is an American trying to get out. It's a hardball world, son. We've gotta keep our heads until this peace craze blows over.

[GreenLines]

I'm interested in hearing a variety of impressions. What does the 'Sacred Feminine' mean to YOU, and why. What goes through your head when you hear those words.

Thank You.

Cartmen and Kenny having their first "period".

[justcharlie09]

Pogue Colonel: What is that you've got written on your helmet?
Private Joker: "Born to Kill", sir.
Pogue Colonel: You write "Born to Kill" on your helmet and you wear a peace button. What's that supposed to be, some kind of sick joke?
Private Joker: No, sir.
Pogue Colonel: You'd better get your head and your ass wired together, or I will take a giant **** on you.
Private Joker: Yes, sir.
Pogue Colonel: Now answer my question or you'll be standing tall before the man.
Private Joker: I think I was trying to suggest something about the duality of man, sir.
Pogue Colonel: The what?
Private Joker: The duality of man. The Jungian thing, sir.
Pogue Colonel: Whose side are you on, son?
Private Joker: Our side, sir.
Pogue Colonel: Don't you love your country?
Private Joker: Yes, sir.
Pogue Colonel: Then how about getting with the program? Why don't you jump on the team and come on in for the big win?
Private Joker: Yes, sir.
Pogue Colonel: Son, all I've ever asked of my marines is that they obey my orders as they would the word of God. We are here to help the Vietnamese, because inside every gook there is an American trying to get out. It's a hardball world, son. We've gotta keep our heads until this peace craze blows over.


That is, quite honestly, one of my favorite movies of all time--not the least for the use of my name for a psychotic's rifle. And yes, I find that both ironic and endearing....

Now there's a bit of the "sacred feminine" for you. Men naming vehicles, boats, guns, and all sorts of things female names. :cool:

[quarky]

I've often thought of getting completely conflicting bumperstickers and symbols for the back of the car.

How about this combination:

Freedom rings hanging from the front mirror along with a rosary. On the back of the car a Sarah Palin 2012 sticker next to a Darwin fish emblem, next to a Buddhist swastika....all topped off by a family of no less than ten stick-figure kids, a mickey antenna ball, some playboy mudflaps...and of course...truck balls.

:D

I like the way you think.


(Don't forget the "just married" sign.)

[justcharlie09]

Likewise :D

Just married? Seriously, nice touch. I think that would really wrap up the whole "look" and make the perfect statement ;)

[Dancing David]

Just throw in the "Its a baby not a choice" and the "Coexist" along with Mary Kay, Tupperware, Pampered Chef and you have got it all!

ETA: I forgot "If the trailers rockin don't come a knockin"

[Cainkane1]

I'm interested in hearing a variety of impressions. What does the 'Sacred Feminine' mean to YOU, and why. What goes through your head when you hear those words.

Thank You.
A pagan female sex Goddess?

[justcharlie09]

A pagan female sex Goddess?

Why is the word "tantric" hopping into my mind?

How about this?

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2734/4156222946_11946857cf_b.jpg

Okay, I posted that in the TV section, too, but it's just too damn funny not to pass around.

I guess those conservatives were right about them lib'ralls making a mockery of government...tee...hee....

Guess the Catholics are going to be REALLY mad at Nancy Pelosi now!

[AkuManiMani]

I'm interested in hearing a variety of impressions. What does the 'Sacred Feminine' mean to YOU, and why. What goes through your head when you hear those words.

Thank You.

Uhm...Venus maybe?

[Piscivore]

Uhm...Venus maybe?

Shocking Blue or Bananarama?

[Niggle]

While I don't doubt the medieval events, my wife (late forties) never ran into that, was born and raised Catholic, went to Catholic school for about half that time.
Now, or before Vatican II? That council seemed a watershed in terms of some cranial removal from rectal areas, in some matters.

::Snip::

Like I said, I don't think it was wide-spread, but it did happen. I've got about the same background as your wife. I'm 46, went to Catholic school grades 1 through 8. I think I was in eighth grade when they tried this crap.

[Darth Rotor]

OT, but, have to say it: Wonder how many hundreds of years will pass before Vatican III and the final installment of the surgery to reverse the damage of the RCC's chronic case of Cranial-Rectal Inversion Syndrome...
I guess that the soonest would be after Ratzinger goes to the great Beer Hall Putsch in the Sky, but more likely much later. The RCC moves slowly.

DR

[TimCallahan]

A concept that seems to go hand-in-hand with the political / sociological variant of the sacred feinine - which is usually accompanied with references to The Goddess - is the myth of the matriarchy. While there's evidence of some degree of sexual egalitarianism antedating the imposition of patriarchy, there's absolutely no evidence that there ever ws a reverse of patriarchy, culture in which women dominated men to the degree men dominated women in patriarchal societies.

I suspect that much of the myth of matriarchy, along with that of the socio-political concept of the sacred feminine, is an attempt on the part of some feminists to claim legitimacy for their movement by virtue of seniority. However, if, in fact, the "natural" state of humanity was a system of rigid sexist hierarchy imposed and maintained by brute force, that would in no way invalidate either democracy or sexual equality. The sacred feminine as a socio-political myth is, in fact, a detriment to feminism and egalitarianism.

The sacred feminine as an aspect of religion, coequeal with the sacred masculine, is valid as long as it's detached from propagandistic polemics.

[six7s]

A concept that seems to go hand-in-hand with the political / sociological variant of the sacred feinine - which is usually accompanied with references to The Goddess - is the myth of the matriarchy. While there's evidence of some degree of sexual egalitarianism antedating the imposition of patriarchy, there's absolutely no evidence that there ever ws a reverse of patriarchy, culture in which women dominated men to the degree men dominated women in patriarchal societies.

I suspect that much of the myth of matriarchy, along with that of the socio-political concept of the sacred feminine, is an attempt on the part of some feminists to claim legitimacy for their movement by virtue of seniority. However, if, in fact, the "natural" state of humanity was a system of rigid sexist hierarchy imposed and maintained by brute force, that would in no way invalidate either democracy or sexual equality. The sacred feminine as a socio-political myth is, in fact, a detriment to feminism and egalitarianism.

The sacred feminine as an aspect of religion, coequeal with the sacred masculine, is valid as long as it's detached from propagandistic polemics.Indeed

Neosemiotic theory and subpatriarchial libertarianism (http://www.elsewhere.org/pomo/1208022746/)
In the works of Spelling, a predominant concept is the concept of textual narrativity. Therefore, a number of appropriations concerning subdialectic patriarchial theory exist. The feminine/masculine distinction which is a central theme of Spelling’s Robin’s Hoods emerges again in Charmed.

The main theme of the works of Spelling is the difference between society and art. But Lacan uses the term ‘Sontagist camp’ to denote the stasis of poststructuralist sexual identity. Several theories concerning the role of the artist as observer may be found.

It could be said that if subpatriarchial libertarianism holds, we have to choose between conceptual dematerialism and subsemanticist capitalist theory. The premise of subpatriarchial libertarianism holds that narrativity is used to exploit the proletariat.

[justcharlie09]

I guess that the soonest would be after Ratzinger goes to the great Beer Hall Putsch in the Sky, but more likely much later. The RCC moves slowly.

DR

True enough. It's going to be many Popes removed from Ratzinger before they make any changes. I'll be long dead and possibly in the midst of having my bones examined by archeologists by the time Vatican III happens...that's my guess anyway!

[I Ratant]

A concept that seems to go hand-in-hand with the political / sociological variant of the sacred feminine - which is usually accompanied with references to The Goddess - is the myth of the matriarchy. ..
.
Not a myth!

[WitchyWoman]

Sounds to me like some woman is fed up of putting up with Mens crap....:p

[Dancing David]

Sounds to me like some woman is fed up of putting up with Mens crap....:p

With good reason!

[TimCallahan]

Here's the ultimate submission to the sacred femnine: when a guy, taking a page from Prince Charles, just wants to be atampon in the vagina of the GREAT GODDESS.

[theMark]

Re: the OP: not entirely sure. Maybe something along these lines...
http://indiavrtours.com/vrphotos/sex_temple3.html
(flash-based interactive 360x180 degrees panorama image, drag-n-pull with the mouse inside the picture)

Those wacky indians and their weird stone carvings... :blush:

[justcharlie09]

Re: the OP: not entirely sure. Maybe something along these lines...
http://indiavrtours.com/vrphotos/sex_temple3.html
(flash-based interactive 360x180 degrees panorama image, drag-n-pull with the mouse inside the picture)

Those wacky indians and their weird stone carvings... :blush:

Oh my, they're talented.

So, there's just one thing I'm curious about. Is this a sex act or the first known performance of Zumanity?

[WitchyWoman]

Here's the ultimate submission to the sacred femnine: when a guy, taking a page from Prince Charles, just wants to be atampon in the vagina of the GREAT GODDESS.

Eeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww :o

[whatthebutlersaw]

It means nothing to me.

...Oh Vienna

ETA: Dang, Terry got in first.