Brazil to fingerprint U.S. visitors.

[Ladewig]

I think the Nazi references to the U.S. policies are a bit over the top, but here's the story of how the Brazilan immigration is planning on treating U.S. visitors the same way that the U.S. immigration will treat Brazilan visitors.

story (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&ncid=564&e=1&u=/nm/20040101/ts_nm/brazil_usa_immigration_dc)

[aerocontrols]

*shrug*

[BTox]

Funny how the judge says:

"I consider the act absolutely brutal, threatening human rights, violating human dignity, xenophobic and worthy of the worst horrors committed by the Nazis,"

and then enacts the same measures. O..K....

[shanek]

Worse than that, he enacts them against innocent people who are as much victims of US policies if not moreso than they are, and not against the people behind those policies.

[Luciana]

I thought other countries would have already started taking similar measures towards American citizens. Only Brazil so far? I expect that to spread.

The rule of reciprocation in international relations is widely accepted in Brazil. It's hardly the first time that Brazil fits its customs measures to reflect those of other countries. For example, when Mexico started to make more demands towards taking a visa, the Brazilian Embassy in Mexico enacted the same measures. Or when Argentina, decades ago, decided to inspect all the legalized cargo that entered the country, Brazil did the same.

There are many reasoning to this. First, if a country finds it acceptable to foreigners, it would be highly hypocritical to express dislike whenever it starts happening to its own citizens. Second, it's believed that the only way to have restrictive measures revoked would be to annoy those same citizens. If they don't like the treatment, it's likely they'll go back to their country and complain. It has happened in the examples I mentioned above.

The debate is far from finished. Some say this court rule is inconstitutional. Some say it must be stopped because it hurts tourism - but then American tourists are hardly the majority, and they don't come to spend much money here.

Stories of Brazilians being mistreated in American airports are becoming more and more common. Hundreds of cases of law-abiding people who get stopped, locked in rooms, interrogated, handcuffed and deported, even though they can prove very well that they have legitimate reasons for being the US. Like the woman that was registered for a cardiology conference. A middle-aged couple coming to see their son in a sports competition. A colostomized man who was going to the US to seek treatment, had all the papers of the hospital.

Stories like that always happened, but they were few and far inbetween. Nowadays they're getting more common. The Brazilian government can keep tabs on those who are deported, but not on those who are interrogated for 4, 6 hours before being released. All that to stop those indomitable, fearless and well-known flocks of Brazilian terrorists. :rolleyes:

Many people are thinking twice before buying tickets to the US. Many flights were cancelled altogether. Tourists are merrily going to Europe. Brazilians made up the second nationality that spent more at DisneyWorld, after only the Japanese, and the third nationality to visit the parks the most. No wonder we see the parks being promoted incessantly in our magazines these days...

It's a pity that most Americans don't care. I really hope that stopping terrorists is worth building resentment around the world. It's becoming very hard to defend the US, as I have done so many times in the past. Some think that travelling to the US is such a privilege that anything can be demanded. Ok, it's your right to think that. But many would disagree and are buying their tickets to countries in which they're welcome.

[El Greco]

I love Brazil :)

[CFLarsen]

"The rule of reciprocation"....interesting idea. I like that. Very Danish-like thinking... :)

[Peter Jenkins]

Way to go Brazil!
I'd love to see Dubya on an official visit, get stopped and fingerprinted.........pity it'll never happen
I'm counting on my status as an inoffensive, English speaking, WASP to get me into the USA without (too much) bother for TAM2.
Peter

[aerocontrols]

Reciprocation is the basis for nearly all international law.


If you and I are equal individuals with a sovereign government above us that can enforce an anti-rape law, then such a law will work - you rape me, and the sovereign can enforce a punishment upon you while maintaining that it is illegal for me to rape you back.

If you and I are instead equal nations with no sovereign government aboves us then the best we can do is agree to a treaty: If Germany refuses to accept the surrender of prisoners and just shoots them on the spot (for instance, the Commissar Order issued by the German high command to kill on sight all Communist officers in the Soviet army, regardless of whether they had surrendered) then there is no referee or 'higher' authority for the Soviets to turn to and make the Germans stop. Because of this, international law recognizes a right of the Soviets to respond in kind. Sometimes nations exercise that right, sometimes they decide that to respond in kind would be abhorrent. However, the law leaves the decision up to them.

The various nations of the world are currently experimenting with trying to establish supra-national sovereign power in some areas. For instance, a nation wronged by unfair trade practices can appeal to the WTO. They don't always work, however, because they depend on the nation's willingness to follow the pronouncements of the ruling body, since rulings cannot usually be enforced. (though in some cases, they can to an extent)

MattJ

[Luciana]

Originally posted by aerocontrols
Reciprocation is the basis for nearly all international law.


Absolutely. That's why I expressed my surprise at finding out that Brazil was the first to invoke that principle. It's the most successful policy as for as international law is concerned, though it won't work as well with anti-democratic governments.

[rikzilla]

Sounds like a childish case of tit for tat.

I always used to watch westerns all the time as a kid. Every time I saw the bad guy calling someone out in the street at high noon I always shuddered and thought how lucky I was to live in these safer, more civilized times.

Not anymore. Now it's worse. You don't see it coming. Now instead of one big bad man facing down another, mano a mano, at high noon with equal odds....now planeloads of helpless people are flown into buildings full of helpless people.

It is terribly naive of folks to place blame upon the people who are attempting to thwart these homicidal nuts. Why is it so hard for some people to place blame where blame belongs? The US didn't suddenly decide to enact these measure in order to piss people off. The decision was not taken in a vacuum. It is a reaction to the reality of terrorism.

Personally I do not mind being fingerprinted in Brazil. I would hope that the US and Brazilian fingerprint database will be shared so that it can be of proper use instead of just a childish, puerile attempt at one-upsmanship.

I would hope most Brazilians understand that international terrorism is so called because terrorists ARE international and will use any nation they deem safe and easy as a jumping off point to attack the US.

I wonder why anyone in Brazil would feel disrespected? I don't know that much about this issue, but I do doubt that the US is ONLY fingerprinting people in-bound from Brazil. Personally, I think Brazil is a lovely country, and the few Brazilians I've met are lovely and non-dangerous people. But Brazil would also not be immune to being used by terrorists IF they thought it and easy mark. Maybe now, they will avoid Brazil?? Who knows, it can't really hurt. Sadly, I think that nations world-wide will begin taking up the finger-printing of air passengers. It's just another symptom of our sick world.

But if the world is sick, blame the disease, not the patient. :)

-z

[Jim Lennox]

Now we are getting sky marshalls on flights out of the UK and apparently passport details get sent to the US to be checked 20 minutes before a plane can take off.

A plane has just been cancelled 'due to security reasons'.

In December six Air France flights from Paris to Los Angeles were grounded, at the request of the US.

The French government now believes the FBI had wrongly identified six passengers as potential terrorists, partly because of mistakes translating Arabic names.

Story (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3362043.stm)

What's going on? Is America going to start building a big wall?

I was watching a bit of Fox News and noticed that they have a graphic reading TERROR ALERT - HIGH on the screen all the time.

Does this qualify as scaremongering?

I realise the need to keep the public informed but this smells bad.

[Michael Redman]

If there are "hundreds" of stories about innocent Brazilians getting locked up upon entry to the US, then there are a lot of people making up stories.

Reciprocation is clearly not the rule when it comes to entry of foreigners, and it makes no sense to make it so. Different countries have different reasons for treating visitors differently. Every country should, and does (except Brazil, it seems) make those decisions based on what it feels are its best interests.

It would be stupid, for example, for Mexico to make it as hard for a US citizen to visit Mexico as it is for a Mexican citizen to visit the US. The interests of the two countries in setting their policies are very clearly different, and both do what they feel is in their best interest. This is as it should be.

Similar policies make sense only in similar circumstances. To base your policy not on what your circumstances indicate, but rather on what someone in a completely different situation does, seem to me to be quite irrational.

[El Greco]

Originally posted by Michael Redman
Every country should, and does (except Brazil, it seems) make those decisions based on what it feels are its best interests.

Many countries choose not to do what Brazil does simply because of submissive politics and of fear they will lose American money. If that's what you mean by "best interests", then you have a point.

Originally posted by Michael Redman
Similar policies make sense only in similar circumstances. To base your policy not on what your circumstances indicate, but rather on what someone in a completely different situation does, seem to me to be quite irrational.

Lots of countries have similar problems but they don't choose to fingerprint visitors.

Almost everyone outside US would agree that fingerprinting visitors doesn't make sense in the first place, so there is no point in trying to find out whether the countermeasures make sense.

[Crossbow]

I am surpised that it took them this long for the government of Brazil to enact the same rules that the government of the USA has implemented.

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Crossbow
I am surpised that it took them this long for the government of Brazil to enact the same rules that the government of the USA has implemented.

You're surprised it took this long? Let's examine how long that is:

Their rule went into effect yesterday. Our rule will go into effect next Monday.

:rolleyes:

[Crossbow]

Originally posted by aerocontrols


You're surprised it took this long? Let's examine how long that is:

Their rule went into effect yesterday. Our rule will go into effect next Monday.

:rolleyes:

But the USA has been talking about doing this for over two years now.

:rr:

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by El Greco



Almost everyone outside US would agree that fingerprinting visitors doesn't make sense in the first place, so there is no point in trying to find out whether the countermeasures make sense.

You should put "almost" in caps. That's a fine wiggle-word. The truth is that "biometrics" are the new wave in identity confirmation. Your fingerprints are a passport which can't be faked...coupled with facial recognition software, height/weight info, and other future-rama stuff like retinal scan or instant DNA tests,...there will be no way anyone can travel incognito. Although it sounds a lot like "1984"...it could put an end to the use of aircraft,...and even air travel,...for suspected terrorists.

You may say fingerprinting doesn't make sense, but fingerprints and other biometric info is in use right now in place of passwords in many IT applications.

Why Biometrics?
Biometrics eliminate the problems associated with password management by measuring human characteristics such as voiceprint, fingerprint, iris pattern, and facial contours, which are virtually impossible to duplicate and cannot be lost like traditional passwords. Biometrics make it more convenient for end-users to access their computer accounts, while maintaining a secure method of user authentication.

The Link (http://www.saflink.com/)

If biometric info can be used in these types of applications, it's sure to be useful for tracking international travellers. They may be able to hide in caves, but they won't be able to fly anywhere.

-z

[Tmy]

Well golly, next thing ya know youll need fingerprinting, picture and proper papers before you can enter a foriegn country. Yeah these facists will probably develope some sort of mandatory "passport" system. Outrageous I say!!!!

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Crossbow


But the USA has been talking about doing this for over two years now.

:rr:

Ok, then... I'll bite: Why is it surprising to you that they enacted the law at nearly the same time as us, rather than before we did, or after we did?

Quite frankly, implementing a law based on reciprocity at the same time or shortly after is completely unsurprising to me.

I'm somewhat surprised that they started doing it a few days before we will, in fact.

Maybe I'm just odd...

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by rikzilla
Your fingerprints are a passport which can't be faked...coupled with facial recognition software, height/weight info, and other future-rama stuff like retinal scan or instant DNA tests,...there will be no way anyone can travel incognito. Although it sounds a lot like "1984"...it could put an end to the use of aircraft,...and even air travel,...for suspected terrorists.

You may say fingerprinting doesn't make sense, but fingerprints and other biometric info is in use right now in place of passwords in many IT applications.

Data like this will be stored electronically, which in turn can be faked centrally. Place someone in the Database Center, have them change the data of certain people, and the system doesn't work anymore.

Originally posted by rikzilla
If biometric info can be used in these types of applications, it's sure to be useful for tracking international travellers. They may be able to hide in caves, but they won't be able to fly anywhere.

The big flaw in your argument is, that it only works with people the system knows in advance. There are plenty of people, who have never flown at all, but are being trained in camps today. How will you stop those with these measures?

Another flaw with biometrics is, that once we place this much faith in that kind of data, I become you, if I steal your data. I don't even pose as you, I am you.

No computer system is completely without holes. And you can bet your bottom dollar that the holes will be exploited.

[El Greco]

Originally posted by rikzilla
You may say fingerprinting doesn't make sense, but fingerprints and other biometric info is in use right now in place of passwords in many IT applications.

Ok, then why do some Americans are outraged that Brazil has decided to use biometrics too ? :D

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by El Greco


Ok, then why do some Americans are outraged that Brazil has decided to use biometrics too ? :D

The same reason some Brazilians are so mad.

[El Greco]

Originally posted by aerocontrols
The same reason some Brazilians are so mad.

Brazilians are mad because they don't see it as biometrics, they see it as a foolish, offensive and ineffective measure.

Apparently, Americans are pioneers in this and should not get mad because they know better.

[Crossbow]

Originally posted by aerocontrols


Ok, then... I'll bite: Why is it surprising to you that they enacted the law at nearly the same time as us, rather than before we did, or after we did?

Quite frankly, implementing a law based on reciprocity at the same time or shortly after is completely unsurprising to me.

I'm somewhat surprised that they started doing it a few days before we will, in fact.

Maybe I'm just odd...

I find it surprising since Brazil could have at least started talking about it such a law and making plans for its implementation months ago, however they have not done any of this until the USA law was within days of being enacted.

OK now?

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Crossbow


I find it surprising since Brazil could have at least started talking about it such a law and making plans for its implementation months ago, however they have not done any of this until the USA law was within days of being enacted.

OK now?

Your surprise makes sense, if not your surprise "that it took them this long for the government of Brazil to enact the same rules that the government of the USA has implemented"

It's not obvious to me that nobody in Brazil was talking about this months ago. The USA also has not yet implemented the rule.

MattJ

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by El Greco
Brazilians are mad because they don't see it as biometrics, they see it as a foolish, offensive and ineffective measure.

Apparently, Americans are pioneers in this and should not get mad because they know better.

Perhaps the 'what every American should think' newsletter hasn't reached everyone yet. Must be holiday delay.

When mine arrives, I'll let you know if it agrees with Rik or if it agrees with me instead.

[Tmy]

Its clear whats going on here. The US govt is planning on using biometrics and fingerprints to fram Braziallians for every unsolved murder in our country. I mean its SO obvious thats the intent.

[Crossbow]

Originally posted by aerocontrols


Your surprise makes sense, if not your surprise "that it took them this long for the government of Brazil to enact the same rules that the government of the USA has implemented"

It's not obvious to me that nobody in Brazil was talking about this months ago. The USA also has not yet implemented the rule.

MattJ

You are welcome.

[El Greco]

Originally posted by aerocontrols

Perhaps the 'what every American should think' newsletter hasn't reached everyone yet. Must be holiday delay.

When mine arrives, I'll let you know if it agrees with Rik or if it agrees with me instead.

Maybe it's being printed in Brazil and the carriers are having problems in the airport.

Originally posted by aerocontrols

The same reason some Brazilians are so mad.

Apparently there are no delivery problems in Brazil.

[Michael Redman]

Originally posted by El Greco
Many countries choose not to do what Brazil does simply because of submissive politics and of fear they will lose American money.

* * *

Almost everyone outside US would agree that fingerprinting visitors doesn't make sense in the first place...So you're saying other counties would implement measures that all agree don't work, just to harass Americans? I find that hard to believe.

Obviously, other countries don't fingerprint because they don't see the need to waste time and money doing it, and/or don't feel it would be effective (or they just haven't gotten around to it). They are acting exactly as I said they should. Brazil, on the other hand, is doing something it does not believe will do any good, and wasting time and money simply to try to prove a point. That's silly.

I don't know if the new US policy is a good or bad thing, but I do know that it would be a bad idea for all countries, regardless of real world circumstances, to implement the exact same policies and procedures.

Hypocrisy? I don't think so:

Brazilians are mad because of the inconvenience the US is possibly going to put a few of them through for it's own perceived protection.

Americans are mad because Brazil plans to put Americans through the same thing, not to protect itself, but simply to punish America for implementing measure for self protection that may inconvenience a few Brazilians.

Hardly equivalent situations.

[El Greco]

Originally posted by Michael Redman
Brazilians are mad because of the inconvenience the US is possibly going to put a few of them through for it's own perceived protection.

Americans are mad because Brazil plans to put Americans through the same thing, not to protect itself, but simply to punish America for implementing measure for self protection that may inconvenience a few Brazilians.

Hardly equivalent situations.

The probelm apparently flows from Brazilians not believing that such measures are actually justified and effective to protect US. If they did, I don't think they would oppose them.

Larsen gave good reasons of why such measures are indeed ineffective.

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by El Greco


Ok, then why do some Americans are outraged that Brazil has decided to use biometrics too ? :D

I'm not mad about it. I think it's childish though, if only used to punish American travellers. If it's to be implemented there, I'd like to see their database linked to ours in order to share info and make both systems function more efficiently. I doubt that will happen though, because on the face of it it seems to be a case of silly retribution.

I don't know much about the change, but I do believe the US immigration inspectors will be fingerprinting EVERYONE...not just Brazilians. But who will the Brazilians be fingerprinting? Only Americans?? If that's the case then I've completely lost respect for the leadership in Brazil.

-z

Oh, BTW Claus...the biometrics id system would indeed be subject to spoofing. But biometrics id methods are only one layer of security, and always will be. Don't look for the other layers to be discarded. There will still be armed air marshals, armed pilots, hardened cockpit doors, etc...etc... Biometric ids are just another layer. Remember, this stuff does work. When was the last time an El Al flight was hijacked??

[El Greco]

Originally posted by rikzilla
I don't know much about the change, but I do believe the US immigration inspectors will be fingerprinting EVERYONE...not just Brazilians. But who will the Brazilians be fingerprinting? Only Americans?? If that's the case then I've completely lost respect for the leadership in Brazil.

According to the article, citizens of 27 countries (mostly European ones) will not be subject to fingerprinting.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by rikzilla
Oh, BTW Claus...the biometrics id system would indeed be subject to spoofing. But biometrics id methods are only one layer of security, and always will be. Don't look for the other layers to be discarded. There will still be armed air marshals, armed pilots, hardened cockpit doors, etc...etc... Biometric ids are just another layer. Remember, this stuff does work. When was the last time an El Al flight was hijacked??

I wasn't aware that El Al used biometric ID systems?

Sure, it "works". The problem is, that I become you. Identity theft will be far more rampant than it is today, and much, much more serious.

If I steal your identity, how will you prove you are you?

[Michael Redman]

Originally posted by El Greco


The probelm apparently flows from Brazilians not believing that such measures are actually justified and effective to protect US. If they did, I don't think they would oppose them.

Larsen gave good reasons of why such measures are indeed ineffective. Again, I'm not arguing that they are. However, it is undeniable that the measures are being implemented because it is thought that they will enhance security, and not for the purpose of harassing Brazilians.

In many countries, US citizens are expected to notify local authorities of their presence. In Italy, for example, hotels take your passport for a while to record the information and make it available to the police. In the US, the government doesn't feel the need to do this. Were the US to implement a rule requiring Italians, specifically, who come to the US to surrender their passports to the hotel front desk so that the information could be recorded, simply as a punative measure against the Italian policy, that would be decried as a foolish and unfair response. And rightfully so.

Likewise, some countries require certian vaccinations before you can visit. Should the US require people from these countries to get the same vaccinations before they come to the US? How would reciprocity in that context do anyone any good?

In some countries you can be arrested for taking a picture of, for example, a cop. Should people from those countries, and those countries only, be arrested for taking a picture of an American cop? Wouldn't that be a stupid policy?

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by CFLarsen
If I steal your identity, how will you prove you are you?

I can get at least a hundred witnesses who know me and would say so in court.

How many people can you get to testify in court to the fact that you are me?

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by CFLarsen


I wasn't aware that El Al used biometric ID systems?

Sure, it "works". The problem is, that I become you. Identity theft will be far more rampant than it is today, and much, much more serious.

If I steal your identity, how will you prove you are you?

You are reaching Claus. A quick investigation would prove that I am myself. OTOH, how will you go about stealing my fingerprints, retinal patern, height/weight, facial features, and DNA?? Unless you are going to clone me in an evil lab I don't see how you'd do it. But, for the purpose of argument, let's say you do. You cause me to be investigated. I am detained, questioned, maybe even jailed a day or two. Maybe if I am a jobless, friendless, recluse perhaps I now have alot of trouble? However, if I am a normal person with employer, co-workers, wife, kids, and friends to vouch for me how could I fail to be vindicated? (Please resist the urge to insert evil gubmint conspiracy to send me to gitmo.)

There is of course a risk that incompetent government workers might screw up and send me to gitmo....but, let's just say that I'm willing to run the risk. :rolleyes:

-z

[El Greco]

Originally posted by Michael Redman
Again, I'm not arguing that they are. However, it is undeniable that the measures are being implemented because it is thought that they will enhance security, and not for the purpose of harassing Brazilians.

The purpose is not to harass Brazilians, but nonetheless noone seems to have thought that Brazilians (and other foreigners) *are* being harassed. And in a discriminatory way. Italian hotels for example, afaik, record id or passport information of all their clients, including Italians. If this measure is not really a harassment, then Americans shouldn't bother at all that Brazil also enforces it. If Brazilians haven't been complaining, then Brazil wouldn't have reacted this way. And I have no reason to believe that Brazilians have been complaining for no reason.

USA authorities seem to think that they can go to any extent in order to protect their citizens without caring whether they insult other people or not.

Maybe in a certain area most thefts are perpetrated by black people. Does this justify a store to search all black people at the exit in case they have stolen something ?

[Giz]

Originally posted by aerocontrols


I can get at least a hundred witnesses who know me and would say so in court.

How many people can you get to testify in court to the fact that you are me?

An entire training camp!? (Very respectable religious types too!)

[Michael Redman]

Originally posted by El Greco
If Brazilians haven't been complaining, then Brazil wouldn't have reacted this way. And I have no reason to believe that Brazilians have been complaining for no reason. The fingerprinting hasn't even been put into effect yet!

USA authorities seem to think that they can go to any extent in order to protect their citizens without caring whether they insult other people or not. They certainly can. And, in this respect, they're behaving exactly like the authorities of every other country. At least, authorities who take their duties to their citizens seriously.

Maybe in a certain area most thefts are perpetrated by black people. Does this justify a store to search all black people at the exit in case they have stolen something ? I'm just going to ignore the race-baiting strawman.

Brazilians who are fingerprinted might have a legitimate complaint. If the authorities in Brazil want to raise this complaint with the US government, they should do so. If they want to protest, they should.

On the other hand, reacting instead by declaring that you're going to impose conditions on Americans that you claim are akin to Nazi brutality makes you look like a little less than sane.

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by aerocontrols
I can get at least a hundred witnesses who know me and would say so in court.

How many people can you get to testify in court to the fact that you are me?

At least two hundred bums, at $5 each. Your call. :)


Originally posted by rikzilla
You are reaching Claus. A quick investigation would prove that I am myself.

How?

Originally posted by rikzilla
OTOH, how will you go about stealing my fingerprints, retinal patern, height/weight, facial features, and DNA?? Unless you are going to clone me in an evil lab I don't see how you'd do it.

No, I am referring to the digital data that describes you biometrically. That can be stolen.

Originally posted by rikzilla
But, for the purpose of argument, let's say you do. You cause me to be investigated. I am detained, questioned, maybe even jailed a day or two. Maybe if I am a jobless, friendless, recluse perhaps I now have alot of trouble? However, if I am a normal person with employer, co-workers, wife, kids, and friends to vouch for me how could I fail to be vindicated? (Please resist the urge to insert evil gubmint conspiracy to send me to gitmo.)

There is of course a risk that incompetent government workers might screw up and send me to gitmo....but, let's just say that I'm willing to run the risk. :rolleyes:

Sure. And in the meantime, I'm already in the country. The point is, I was you, when I crossed the border. Who can find me afterwards?

I could also steal your identity and simply pose as you for a very long time, before you discovered it.

[Luciana]

The reciprocation rule, in Brazil, is taken seriously. Remember, Brazil is bordered by 10 different countries with unstable governments and resentful of Brazil's size. Do you know that now and then Brazil is accused of imperialism by their Latin American neighbors? Historically, "tit for tat" has worked well between democratic countries. Then the question is - if we apply this rule with our neighboring countries, why should it be any different for the US?

Also, there's the fear of slippery slope. First, picture and fingerprinting. What next? But the American government will think twice before implementing new policies that would be considered humiliating for American citizens.

Does anyone really think that the Brazilian Foreign Affairs Ministry has to tried to argue against this new policy? Wrong, the Brazilian government has been negotiating this for long. Of course the details of this negotiation remain unkown, but the results are obvious - once the US decided to go on with the new policy, some elements of the Brazilian government decided to act on it.

The court order came into effect yesterday, experimentally. By Jan. 5th, when the procedure will start to take effect in American airports, all airports in Brazil will be ready to implement the same policy (Im actually impressed with the efficiency!). If the US government ever drops this, you can be 100% sure that Brazil will stop the procedure immediately, as past examples of reciprocation has shown.

Sharing database: if the US offers to share its database with Brazil, I don't doubt that Brazil would agree to sharing its own. Anything other than that, I don't think so.

Also, the point of effectiveness: If it's effective, then why shouldn't Brazil be allowed to protect its country too? If it proves to be feasible and effective, I'm sure this will be extended to all foreign nationals. If it's not effective, then it's obvious that the US will be the first to give it up. And even if it doesn't, then that's how it goes - if the US wants to inconvenience Brazilians - for extremely weak reasons - then why shouldn't Brazil inconvenience Americans too?

Another point - guess which regions will get this special screening? Most of Latin America, Asia, Africa. Pardon me, but this is so ignorant. Tell me how many of these governments sponsor terrorism? How many terrorists from these nationalities have appeared? Is Al-Qaeda inside each and every of these countries? Of course not. Actually, there are probably more ties with some European countries - France, at least - than has ever been found with Brazil. Europe is closer geographically to the Middle East. So, above all, it seems unfair. Pretty much like a rich/poor divide.

Make no mistake, many Brazilians resent being considered potential terrorists, or any more than people from other nationalities. I could bet that that's what incensed that judge - although I'm sure that, if not for him, many others would step up, with support from major segments of the Brazilian government.

[El Greco]

Originally posted by Michael Redman
The fingerprinting hasn't even been put into effect yet!

Fingerprinting is hardly the only source of complaints. Did you read Luciana's first post ?

Originally posted by Michael Redman
They certainly can. And, in this respect, they're behaving exactly like the authorities of every other country. At least, authorities who take their duties to their citizens seriously.

"They certainly can" ? "They certainly can" ? Without giving a damn about non US-citizens ?

Great! No comment!

Originally posted by Michael Redman
I'm just going to ignore the race-baiting strawman.

I'm a little tired of this "strawman" misuse. Every time someone encounters a parallelism he can't respond to, then we have a strawman. There is nothing that makes my example a strawman. In both cases we have a discriminatory policy and a measure that allegedly protects certain people by humiliating others. I just used the "black people" example because it might make it easier for an American to understand how foreigners feel. And yes, this exactly how they feel.

[Luciana]

If British Airlines' airplanes are being delayed for adittional screening, or being cancelled, and if an airplane from Air France was escorted mid-air... indicating that effective security measure didn't take place in the airport of origin... why aren't those traveler's being fingerprinted upon their arrival in the US? Why not spread this new security policy for European countries? Maybe because irritating Europeans is much more harmful than irritating Latin Americans? Silly me, of course it's more harmful.


Added: even if the new measure are effective... they will only be completely effective if they cover the whole world. Anything else is a security hole.

[Luciana]

Indagado sobre a opinião do governo americano a respeito de medidas de retaliação como a brasileira, Asa Hutchintson, um porta-voz do Departamento de Segurança Interna, respondeu:

- Acho natural e damos as boas-vindas a países que querem garantir sua segurança.

From Brazilian newspaper O Globo (http://oglobo.globo.com/online/plantao/132959394.asp) , online version, today. Translated by me:

When asked about the opinion of the American government regarding retaliation measures such as those from Brazil, Asa Hutchintson, a spokesperson for the Internal Security Department, answered: "I think it' natural and we welcome countries who want to guarantee their safety".

I love it how the newspaper chooses the word "retaliation" instead of "reciprocation". That's an ignorant choice made by the journalist, who's probably unaware of the difference. The concept of reciprocation is so well understood, that the US government could not, with a straight face, deny it. Thus I fail to understand why some people here seem so indignant. My only surprise, so far, is the fact that other countries haven't followed suit so far.

[ZeeGerman]

Originally posted by rikzilla


You may say fingerprinting doesn't make sense, but fingerprints and other biometric info is in use right now in place of passwords in many IT applications.



The Link (http://www.saflink.com/)

If biometric info can be used in these types of applications, it's sure to be useful for tracking international travellers. They may be able to hide in caves, but they won't be able to fly anywhere.

-z


I agree that biometrics is a fine method for assuring a person's identity and I don't mind having my fingerprints taken upon entering the US (because they have it already due to my california drivers license and US working permit). But what in heck does it help you in the war on terrorism???
Was the identity of the 9/11 terrorists really a problem? Have they entered the US under false identity? Would it have been helpful to have their iris scans? The answer is No. The problem with suicide terrorists is that you rarely deal with repeat offenders so what's the point in taking everybody's biometric profile upon entering US aside from showing some actionism to reassure the masses?

Zee

[fishbob]

It is terribly naive of folks to place blame upon the people who are attempting to thwart these homicidal nuts. Why is it so hard for some people to place blame where blame belongs? The US didn't suddenly decide to enact these measure in order to piss people off. The decision was not taken in a vacuum. It is a reaction to the reality of terrorism. It is important the our reaction to terrorism should be actually effective and perceived as fair. What has been done so far is percieved as ineffective and unfair. And we have no way of knowing whether anything actually effective has been accomplished.

The blame for terrorism belongs to the terrorists. The blame for a silly reaction to the reality of terrorism belongs to us.

[Michael Redman]

Originally posted by El Greco
Fingerprinting is hardly the only source of complaints. Did you read Luciana's first post ? Fingerprinting is what we’re talking about, as it is fingerprinting and photographing that Brazil is implementing in retaliation. The claim of hundreds of visa holding Brazilians being arrested, handcuffed, and deported upon entry is not supported, and I doubt it is true."They certainly can" ? "They certainly can" ? Without giving a damn about non US-citizens ?
Great! No comment! Yes. A nation certainly can implement measures designed protect the lives of it's citizens, even if those measures may slightly inconvience some foreigners who wish to visit that nation. All nations do this.I'm a little tired of this "strawman" misuse. Every time someone encounters a parallelism he can't respond to, then we have a strawman. And every time someone resorts to the strawman, they claim that they’ve simply created a parallelism that the other can’t respond to.There is nothing that makes my example a strawman. In both cases we have a discriminatory policy and a measure that allegedly protects certain people by humiliating others. Actually, in neither case do we have measures that allegedly protect some by humiliating others. Your example is a strawman because it uses mistatements of fact to makes the claim that the justification for treating people differently at the border based on where they’re coming from could logically be extended to justify race-based discrimination between otherwise equal citizens, as had been practiced in this country in the past. Racial discrimination was not the result of a rational effort to protect the general public from an outside threat. These measures may not be well designed to do that, but they are designed to do that, and not to humiliate or oppress anyone.I just used the "black people" example because it might make it easier for an American to understand how foreigners feel. And yes, this exactly how they feel. Then those foreigners are amazingly oversensitive, and have no idea what racial discrimination is like. Everyone feels different when they visit any foreign land. The parallel to racial minorities is without merit. Foreigners are different in meaningful ways that make certain discrimination between visitors and residents rational and fair.

That said, unlike in most other countries, once you get past the border it is very difficult to identify foreign visitors in the US as destinct from foreign-born Americans, or simply Americans from differing regions and backgrounds. If foreigners feel like they're treated differently here, they should try going somewhere where everyone call tell at a glance that they're foreign.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by Ladewig
I think the Nazi references to the U.S. policies are a bit over the top, but here's the story of how the Brazilan immigration is planning on treating U.S. visitors the same way that the U.S. immigration will treat Brazilan visitors.

story (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&ncid=564&e=1&u=/nm/20040101/ts_nm/brazil_usa_immigration_dc)

Is this supposed to be some kind of humiliation to put us in our place? I have been fingerprinted many times and do not feel diminished by it in any way.

I have been fingerprinted by the authorities of Ulster County, New York in the process of getting a gun license.

I have been fingerprinted by many private corporations when applying for jobs at banks and insurance companies.

I have been fingerprinted by the New York City Transit Authority before taking the bus driver test (I passed the test but didn't get the job).

The first time I was fingerprinted was by the New York City police when I was three years old. I tagged along when my father and his two brothers were applying for a liquor license. They were all fingerprinted and one of the cops said "Hey, let's fingerprint the kid."

It was lots of fun, though my mother was appalled when she was told of it.

Maybe it's one of those horrible American things, but I can't get worked up over someone's humiliation at being fingerprinted.

[Luciana]

Fingerprinting is what we’re talking about, as it is fingerprinting and photographing that Brazil is implementing in retaliation.

Reciprocation, which is neutral. For better of for worse. It could be a mere case of semantics, but retaliation implies paying back some wrongdoing. Then you admit that photographing and fingerprinting is wrong? Or you're just trying to find spite where there is none?

In the mid-90s, the US government allowed for the American visa to be valid for 10 years, as opposed to the 2 years' time limit of the past. This generosity was reciprocated - 10 years for Americans too. I think last year this rule was revoked and the time frame was shortened. Brazil reciprocated. As I said before, it's only fair. In many levels.

The US government has expressed its approval of the Brazilian decision.

The claim of hundreds of visa holding Brazilians being arrested, handcuffed, and deported upon entry is not supported, and I doubt it is true.

I'll try to find more info. So far, I've only gathered snippets from Brazilians newspapers. What might be happening is, once a case became infamous - the one that springs to mind is the cardiologist who visited the US at least twice a year for Conferences, and even upon proving her registration, was arrested, handcuffed and deported - other stories start to spring forth. They have always happened, and if it's any consolation, that's bound to happen in Europe too, for the same visa-holding Brazilian citizens. One possibility is that the media started to give more emphasis to these cases, thus giving the impression that the number has increased.

It's very complicated to find trustworthy numbers, though. Nothing to be found at the Brazilian and American embassies' websites.

[Luciana]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred

Is this supposed to be some kind of humiliation to put us in our place? I have been fingerprinted many times and do not feel diminished by it in any way.

Neither do I. Every Brazilian carries an ID which bears a fingerprint. For people who are illiterate, fingerprinting is akin to signature.

The heart of the matter is - if fingerprinting isn't humiliating for Brazilians, who are certainly used to it, then it shouldn't be for Americans, who are used to it also? Fair is fair.

The judge was way over-the-top. But his ruling was not. If follows the rule of reciprocation, which is probably as old as diplomacy itself.

Or maybe the matter is that imposing restrictive measures for Americans is outrageous? This is getting more and more obvious as more this thread grows...

[CFLarsen]

Originally posted by Luciana Nery
Or maybe the matter is that imposing restrictive measures for Americans is outrageous? This is getting more and more obvious as more this thread grows...

Yup.

[Ladewig]

Maybe it's one of those horrible American things, but I can't get worked up over someone's humiliation at being fingerprinted.

I posted the story for its news value, not because I believe that anyone's rights are being violated. Every country has the right to treat its visitors any way it wants (provided that such treatment is made known before the visitors choose to go there).

I would like to understand the criteria used for deciding which countries get the fingerprint treatment and which don't, but I do not think it is that big of an issue in the grand scheme of things.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by Ladewig


I posted the story for its news value, not because I believe that anyone's rights are being violated. Every country has the right to treat its visitors any way it wants (provided that such treatment is made known before the visitors choose to go there).

I would like to understand the criteria used for deciding which countries get the fingerprint treatment and which don't, but I do not think it is that big of an issue in the grand scheme of things.

Fair enough, but I don't think you can fault me for addressing the implyed (OK not by you) subtext.

We Americans are somewhat jumpy these days.

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by Luciana Nery


Neither do I. Every Brazilian carries an ID which bears a fingerprint.

Interesting. I think that senators would be hanging from lampposts if they tried to impose such a thing in my country.

Private corporations or local authorities are another matter.

[Luciana]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred

We Americans are somewhat jumpy these days.

Yes, you are. :) And if you pardon my saying so, that's not healthy. If you believe everybody hates you and acts accordingly, people will hate you because of that. It only builds resentment on both sides, imho.

Interesting. I think that senators would be hanging from lampposts if they tried to impose such a thing in my country.

See, that's another aspect. For an American, being fingerprinted by their own government is unthinkable. And yet, they're demanding this from visitors. Brazilians, on the other hand, are universally fingerprinted upon birth and again at 18. Thus, extending it for foreigners is much less confrontational.

Btw, Brazilians have been fingerprinted since... I don't know, but at least before the 1930s... so for us, it has always been like this. It's a major non-issue. :D

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by Luciana Nery
See, that's another aspect. For an American, being fingerprinted by their own government is unthinkable.

Luciana: The State of Georgia took my thumbprint when I got my Georgia driver's license.

For everyone else:

US screening nets 30 criminals (http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,8362534%255E401,00.html).

[renata]

Something I have been unable to find out- the visitors from the countries that get a free pass in Western Europe- do they have to be citizens of those countries or merely arrive on the plane from those countries? If they merely have to fly in from the UK, for example seems like a huge loophole to me.

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Originally posted by rikzilla
You are reaching Claus. A quick investigation would prove that I am myself. OTOH, how will you go about stealing my fingerprints, retinal patern, height/weight, facial features, and DNA?? Unless you are going to clone me in an evil lab I don't see how you'd do it.

How I would do it would to get someone on the inside to change the centrally stored data on the database so that my fingerprints, retinal pattern, height/weight, facial features and DNA appeared against your name in the database.

How do you go about proving who you are now?

On the wider point, what use is actually made of these fingerprints once they are taken? Based on the link above, they check them against fingerprint records for unsolved crimes - great if you think that the next suicide bomber is likely to have a record in the US - but surely that is a very ineffective screening for terrorist suspects?

Would the Americans contributing accept similar screening being put in place for all passengers on flights within and to the US? This would have the potential to clear up a lot more crimes (or at least penalise anyone who thinks they may have left their fingerprints at a crime scene).

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by renata
Something I have been unable to find out- the visitors from the countries that get a free pass in Western Europe- do they have to be citizens of those countries or merely arrive on the plane from those countries? If they merely have to fly in from the UK, for example seems like a huge loophole to me.
I would suspect they have to be citizens. And talking of "free pass", any UK citizen whose passport runs out after 26 October this year but before the new <del>fascist ID cards</del> biometric passports are introduced in 2005 will have to apply, in person, for a non-immigrant visa from the US embassies in London and Belfast (but not the ones in Edinburgh and Cardiff IIRC) at a cost of UKP67. The embassy has considerately set up a helpline, with calls charged at UKP1.30/min. Is this actually a helpline, or a covert telethon to make up the shortfall from the expected drop in tourism? ;)

Obligatory link

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by Jaggy Bunnet
Would the Americans contributing accept similar screening being put in place for all passengers on flights within and to the US? This would have the potential to clear up a lot more crimes (or at least penalise anyone who thinks they may have left their fingerprints at a crime scene).

...and maybe British customs should be asking US visitors if they intend to shoot any of our police officers (http://www.yorkshiretoday.co.uk/viewarticle2.aspx?ArticleID=717671&SectionID=55&Search=Nathan%20Coleman&Searchtype=exact&SearchSection=55&DateFrom=011995&DateTo=012004&Page=1&ReturnPage=Results.aspx)...

[hammegk]

Originally posted by El Greco


Maybe in a certain area most thefts are perpetrated by black people. Does this justify a store to search all black people at the exit in case they have stolen something ?

No "maybe" about it, and yeah, if I were the shopowner being stolen from, I'd try my damnest to move to safer neighborhood.

What would you do?

[Michael Redman]

The process on entering the US is supposed to add 10 to 15 seconds to the entry of all visa holders. Americans entering Brazil are being detained for hours. Reciprocal? No.

If Brazil were implementing this provision because it thought it was a good idea to fingerprint and photograph visitors, I would have absolutely no problem with it. Brazil is, however, doing this for the avowed purpose of inconveniencing American visitors. That isn't reciprocity, it's retaliation. It's the intent with which I have a problem. Anyway, I hear that the US and Brazil are talking about adding Brazil the the visa waiver program, so maybe this issue will go away soon.

(I do find it interesting how the act of getting fingerprinted has evolved from mortal humiliation to routine non-event for Brazilians as this thread has evolved.)

Originally posted by renata
Something I have been unable to find out- the visitors from the countries that get a free pass in Western Europe- do they have to be citizens of those countries or merely arrive on the plane from those countries? If they merely have to fly in from the UK, for example seems like a huge loophole to me. This provision applies to all entrants to the US who hold visas. Citizens of certain countries don't need visas to enter the US, and they then don't go through this process. Where the flight originated from is irrelevant.

It isn't only Western European countries. The program extends, for example to passport holders from Japan and Singapore. Here's a link: http://travel.state.gov/vwp.html

[Peter Jenkins]

Originally posted by Michael Redman
The process on entering the US is supposed to add 10 to 15 seconds to the entry of all visa holders. Americans entering Brazil are being detained for hours. Reciprocal? No.

I dont know how many extra seconds this process will add to the time it takes to clear immigration, however I am told that it can often take 2-3 hours to simply get through immigration, in the US. Does this count as being 'detained for hours'?
As for the Visa Waiver program, it seems like this is not going to last much longer. From October new passport holdrs are going to have to pay £67.00 (about $120) per person, for a visa. This is going to ensure that british familiess have a serious think before flocking to Disneyworld.
OK, if that's what it takes to combat terrorism..........
on the other hand, A spokesman pointed to the 'British Shoe Bomber', John Reid, as one example of the threat posed by British nationals.
Before you can get a Visa, you will need to pass an interview and be fingerprinted (and pay the requisite money, of course)
John Reid wouldn't have had any propblems with fingerprints - he had no criminal record. So, as long as he could save up a few pounds, and could lie when he was asked if he intended to blow anyone up, I guess the visa system wouldn't have made much difference.
P

[c0rbin]

If I wanted to visit a country, I would follow that country's rules for visitation in good faith as a good and polite guest.

[Luciana]

Originally posted by Michael Redman
The process on entering the US is supposed to add 10 to 15 seconds to the entry of all visa holders. Americans entering Brazil are being detained for hours. Reciprocal? No.

On the very first day, the process took EIGHT hours. Outrageous, no doubt. On Tuesday, it was down to 45 minutes, still a lot. Up to yesterday the waiting was 15 minutes. That's what I'm used to waiting at the immigration line in the US.

(I do find it interesting how the act of getting fingerprinted has evolved from mortal humiliation to routine non-event for Brazilians as this thread has evolved.)

One judge considered it to be highly humiliating. His right. In all those non-scientific polls at websites, Brazilians are divided on the issue.

This provision applies to all entrants to the US who hold visas. Citizens of certain countries don't need visas to enter the US, and they then don't go through this process. Where the flight originated from is irrelevant.

The big question is - why is this process demanded from Brazilians and not from French or the English, considering that they have a great number of immigrants from the Middle East and there's mounting evidence of links to multiple terrorist organizations?

How many Brazilians have been arrested for terrorism? International: none. National: a few, 20+ years ago, and that was related to our dictatorship.

It makes a good case that Americans are inconveniencing Brazilians needlessly, or with minimum justification. Either the rule applies to everybody, and now (not in October. With so many flights being diverted, why the wait?), or it's unfair and discriminatory. Thus, I can't see the moral ground for saying that Brazilians are doing this for inconveniencing Americans only.

It isn't only Western European countries. The program extends, for example to passport holders from Japan and Singapore. Here's a link: http://travel.state.gov/vwp.html [/B]

Anyway, I hear that the US and Brazil are talking about adding Brazil the the visa waiver program, so maybe this issue will go away soon.

I hope they do. Well, maybe inconveniencing Americans isn't so useless after all... see, that's what reciprocation is all about. If it's not good for Americans, it's not good for Brazilians either, so let's stop this nonsense.

[Michael Redman]

Originally posted by Peter Jenkins
From October new passport holdrs are going to have to pay £67.00 (about $120) per person, for a visa. This is going to ensure that british familiess have a serious think before flocking to Disneyworld. British families don't need visas to come to the US. I'm not sure what you are talking about. Can you provide any more info?Originally posted by Luciana Nery
The big question is - why is this process demanded from Brazilians and not from French or the English... Once again, Brazil doesn't participate in the visa waiver program, so Brazilians need visas to enter the US. The UK and France do participate, so they don't need visas (unless they plan to stay more than 90 days, come to work or study, etc.). Everyone who enters with a visa gets fingerprinted and photographed. Everone who enters without a visa does not get fingerprinted and photographed. Brazilians are not being singled out.

[Peter Jenkins]

British families don't need visas to come to the US. I'm not sure what you are talking about. Can you provide any more info?

from the Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1118609,00.html) Newspaper

But the new US rules also state that, from October 26, people entering the country under the visa waiver programme must carry new high-security passports that contain digital information identifying the holder by unique biometric data, such as fingerprints or iris patterns.

The US, which says it aims to be "open to visitors but closed to terrorists", has acknowledged that most of the 27 visa waiver countries "cannot comply" by this deadline because they will not have the technology to produce the passports until the summer of 2006 at the earliest. This means that citizens issued with new, non-biometric passports will have to apply for a visa.

James Williams, the director of the US visitor registration programme, said Britain had already informed US officials that it would not be ready to issue the new passports by October.

It is understood British officials are lobbying Washington hard to extend the deadline or make arrangements to prevent disruption to British travellers.

A British embassy spokesman said: "We are in close contact with the department of homeland security on the issue of biometrics, and have been from the start, and we continue to work to find a solution."

Among the Britons likely to be caught up in the new regime are those heading for winter sunshine breaks in Florida, and those heading to ski resorts for the early season.

Around 450,000 new British passports are issued every month, meaning that it will not be long before millions of British travellers require visas to enter the US.
P

[BillyTK]

Originally posted by BillyTK

I would suspect they have to be citizens. And talking of "free pass", any UK citizen whose passport runs out after 26 October this year but before the new <del>fascist ID cards</del> biometric passports are introduced in 2005 will have to apply, in person, for a non-immigrant visa from the US embassies in London and Belfast (but not the ones in Edinburgh and Cardiff IIRC) at a cost of UKP67. The embassy has considerately set up a helpline, with calls charged at UKP1.30/min. Is this actually a helpline, or a covert telethon to make up the shortfall from the expected drop in tourism? ;)

Obligatory link
Link broken (note to self, must use 'preview reply' option more often). Correct link is: Changes to US visa scheme (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3378717.stm):
Who is affected by the new rules?

Those who have to renew passports after 26 October this year, but before new biometric ones become available in mid-2005.

Also those with non-machine readable passports that were obtained at overseas British missions.

Why is the US imposing this change in its visa-waiver scheme?

The move is part of America's toughening of measures designed to protect it against further acts of terrorism.

The US wants to be able to instantly check a visitor's criminal background at 115 airports handling international flights and 14 major seaports.

Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge said the US aims to be "open to visitors, but closed to terrorists".

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by Claus Larsen:
At least two hundred bums, at $5 each. Your call.

All clean, sober and convincing? Competent trial lawyers can should spot a Cock and Bull coming from the mouth of a competent witness a mile off, never mid from someone who's likely to be a schizophrenic meths drinker.

Originally posted by Jaggy Bunnet:
How I would do it would to get someone on the inside to change the centrally stored data on the database so that my fingerprints, retinal pattern, height/weight, facial features and DNA appeared against your name in the database.

You make it sound very straightforward. Convicted criminals most wipe their records all the time. Maybe I should get someone "on the inside" at the credit card company to wipe that troublesome mastercard debt I accumulated over the Chrismas. Someone on the inside over at the bank could splice a couple more zeroes unto my current account balance, or better still switch my account details and credit ratings with Bono's.

How do you go about proving who you are now?

Testimonials by employers, family, friemds and acquaintances, dental and medical records, DNA fingerprinting analysis to establish definite relationship with biological family members (presuming whoever it was switched the only copies of my centrally stored personal data didn't go to the trouble of doing the same with the records of all my extended family).

[Luciana]

Since this thread was bumped... the Federal Police is acquiring fingerprintig equipment similar to that being used in the US, to be installed in all Brazilian airports and ports from this week on. That even things out, in that the waiting time will decrease dramatically, although the average now is 15-20 minutes.

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by Luciana Nery
Since this thread was bumped... the Federal Police is acquiring fingerprintig equipment similar to that being used in the US, to be installed in all Brazilian airports and ports from this week on. That even things out, in that the waiting time will decrease dramatically, although the average now is 15-20 minutes.

20 minutes of waiting will not dissuade me from attending carnivale! ;) The price of the ticket might though. I'd walk over hot coals to see you @ Ipanema in one of those little half- bikinis they seem to wear there though. :D

-z

[Ed]

It seems, if I recall correctly, that whenever I have traveled to Europe there were two lines, one for EU residents another for all others.

I was humiliated by being singled out. My feelings were hurt. That led to diminished feelings of self worth. Very sad all in all.

[Ed]

Originally posted by Luciana Nery
I thought other countries would have already started taking similar measures towards American citizens. Only Brazil so far? I expect that to spread.

The rule of reciprocation in international relations is widely accepted in Brazil. It's hardly the first time that Brazil fits its customs measures to reflect those of other countries. For example, when Mexico started to make more demands towards taking a visa, the Brazilian Embassy in Mexico enacted the same measures. Or when Argentina, decades ago, decided to inspect all the legalized cargo that entered the country, Brazil did the same.




I am in complete support of reciprocation.

We should let into the US precisely as many people from foreign countries as their countries admit Americans. Broken out by class, of course, workers, vacationers etc.

[Luciana]

Originally posted by rikzilla


20 minutes of waiting will not dissuade me from attending carnivale! ;) The price of the ticket might though. I'd walk over hot coals to see you @ Ipanema in one of those little half- bikinis they seem to wear there though. :D

-z

You're welcome, rikzilla!

Apparently, President Lula will ask Bush today, face-to-face, if Brazilians can be exempted from this policy.

Rio de Janeiro is a tourist city, and we are known for warm receptions. From today on, American tourists will be receiving flowers and T-shirts upon arrival. In the picture, the tourist is wearing hat. The T-shirt the other woman is wearing reads "Rio Loves You". On TV, I saw a guy saying "I've never been received so well in an airport, not even in my own country".

The debate goes on, as a judge manage to lift the policy instated by another judge, that is, demanding the fingerprinting and photographs. It only lasted a few hours, though. Some say that the first judge's ruling was inconstitutional because he couldn't interfere with international relations. That debate is far from over.

That picture is from O Globo (http://oglobo.globo.com/online/plantao/133265208.asp)

[Michael Redman]

Do Americans currently need visas to visit Brazil? If not, then it seems that the fair reciprocity would be to require Americans to get visas, as the US requires of Brazilians, and that should have been done long ago. If Brazil enters the visa waiver program, it will have to allow Americans in without visas in exchange for Brazilians entering without. More Brazilians visitors to the US would be a good thing.

I don't think actual security procedures at the border are subject to reciprocity as, for example, visa requirements might arguably be. However, I understand the Brazilian objection (although I think it's tinged with popular US-bashing motivation). I think it's good that both sides are working to find a satisfactory solution.

I want to go to Brazil, too.

It would be interesting if, in the long run, the new procedures resulted in a greater expansion of the visa waiver program, letting far more people into the US without visas than before.

[shanek]

http://www.liberty-news.com/cartoons/AirportSecurity.gif

[Luciana]

Redman: I'll answer to you later, when I return from a certain conference. :)

Latest news: an American pilot was arrested in São Paulo for refusing to comply with the new measures, making obscene gestures and resisting arrest. No details as of now.

Reciprocation and terrorists threats aside, in Rio people always find an excuse for samba and beautiful women in small bikinis... :D
Picture taken today, in the Rio international airport. Those American guys sure liked the welcome... from Jornal O Globo:

http://oglobo.globo.com/fotos/040114_capa_mulatas_a2.jpg

http://oglobo.globo.com/fotos/040114_mun_mulatas_a2.jpg

[richardm]

Originally posted by Luciana Nery

Latest news: an American pilot was arrested in São Paulo for refusing to comply with the new measures, making obscene gestures and resisting arrest. No details as of now.


More details coming out slowly. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3397183.stm)

Some people are getting a bit fractious, it seems, samba notwithstanding.

[Michael Redman]

Give him a break. He was most likely drunk.