creationism in the national parks

[cosmic]

Visit the Grand Canyon, attend one of the popular campfire nature talks given by a Park Ranger and hear about how the Canyon was created in (or shortly after) Noah's Flood!!

It might go that way according to this article:

http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?ItemID=16200

(thanks to the Skeptic's Dictionary)

So the Bush "Faith Based Initiative" is targeting our national parks for "equal time"...

say it ain't so!

Perhaps his next move will be to declare the Palaxy Tracks a national monument (!)

[Zep]

For goodness' sake, ENOUGH, DUBYA!! Siddown, shuddup and leave the US National Parks alone.

What the hell has got into you? Why do you have to deface and denigrate one of the USA's and the world's greatest wonders like this? Just let people look at it and walk in it and wonder to themselves WITHOUT having to be bombarded by your boring blinkered buddies. Just keep all your religious crapposity the hell out of there, OK?

Idiot.

[Marvel Frozen]

..the National Park Service "approved ... the sale of creationist books giving a non-evolutionary explanation for the Grand Canyon ...

Isn't it fun how creationists have no clue what evolution is? They just lump together all science the disagree with (i.e. almost all modern science) and call it "evolution". I guess it's easier for their simple minds that way."

[Upchurch]

man....

This may be more of a politics issue than a philosophy one, but when did the Religious Right simply become the Right? The seperation of church and state have been part of our political and social make up for two centuries and now its being claimed that it never was? What the heck is going on?

[Yahweh]

..the National Park Service "approved ... the sale of creationist books giving a non-evolutionary explanation for the Grand Canyon ...
What kind of Creationist explanation are they looking for.

How about a giant lightning bolt that vaporized the the rock of the Grand Canyon (which mysteriously ages the rock 2 billion years).

There are Creation traditions from other religions and cultures, including, but not limited to, the Aaragon, Abenaki, Acoma, Ainu, Aleut, Amunge, Angevin, Anishinabek, Anvik-Shageluk, Apache, Arapaho, Ararapivka, Arikara, Armenian, Arrernte, Ashkenazim, Assiniboine, Athabascan, Athena, Aztec, Babylonian, Balinese, Bannock, Bantu, Basque, Blackfoot, Blood, Bosnian, Breton, Brul, Bundjalung, Burns Paiute, Caddo, Cahuilla, Catalan, Cayuga, Cayuse, Celt, Chehalis, Chelan, Cherokee, Chewella, Cheyenne, Chickasaw, Chinook, Chippewa, Chirachaua, Choctaw, Chukchi, Coeur d'Alene, Columbia River, Colville, Comanche, Congolese, Concow, Coquille, Cow Creek, Cowlitz, Cree, Creek, Croat, Crow, Crow Creek, Cumbres, Curonian, Cushite, Cut Head, Da'an, Devon, Dihai-Kutchin, Diyari, Dogon, Duwamish, Egyptian, Elwha, Eritrean, Eskimo, Esrolvuli, Eta, Even, Evenk, Flathead, Fijian, Fox, Fuegan, Gaul, Gooniyandi, Gond, Govi Basin Mongolian, Grand Ronde, Gros Ventre, Haida, Han, Haranding, Havasupai, Hendriki, Heortling, Hidatsa, Hindi, Hmong, HoChunk, Hoh, Hoopa, Hopi, Hunkpapa, Hutu, Ik-kil-lin, Inca, Innu, Intsi Dindjich, Inuit, Iroquois, Isleta, Itchali, Itelemen, It-ka-lya-ruin, Itkpe'lit, Itku'dlin, Jicarilla Apache, Jotvingian, Kaiyuhkhotana, Kalapuya, Kalispel, Kamchandal, Kansa, Karuk, Katshikotin, Kaurna, Kaw, Kazahk, Ketschetnaer, Khanti, Khoi-San, Khymer, Kickapoo, Kiowa, Kirghiz, Kitchin-Kutchin, Klamath, Knaiakhotana, K'nyaw, Koch-Rajbongshi, Kolshina, Kono, Kootenai, Koyukukhotana, !Kung, Kurd, La Jolla, Lac Courte D'Oreille, Lac Du Flambeau, Laguna, Lake, Lakota, Lao, Latgalian, Leech Lake Chippewa, Lemmi, Lower Brul, Lower Yanktonai, Lowland Lummi, Lummi, Malawi, Makah, Mandan, Maori, Maricopan, Martinez, Mayan, Mazatec, Mednofski, Menominee, Meryam Mir, Mesa Grande, Mescalero Apache, Metlakatla, Miniconjou, Mission, Moallalla, Modoc, Mohawk, Mojave, Morongo, Muckleshoot, Murrinh-Patha, Nadruvian, Nagorno-Karabakh, Na-Kotchpo-tschig-Kouttchin, Nambe, Namib, Natche'-Kutehin, Navajo, Nes Pelem, Neyetse-kutchi, Nez Perce, Ngiyampaa, Nisqualli, Nnatsit-Kutchin, Nomelackie, Nooksack, Norman, Norse, Northern Cheyenne, Nyungar, Oglala, Ogorvalte, Ojibway, Okanagon, Okinawan, Olmec, Omaha, Oneida, Onondaga, Ordovices, Orlanthi, Osage, Osetto, O-til'-tin, Otoe, Paakantyi, Paiute, Pala Mission, Papago, Pawnee, Pazyryk, Pechango, Penan, Piegan, Pima, Pitt River, Ponca, Potowatomie, Prussian, Pueblo, Puyallup, Qiang, Quileute, Quinault, Red Cliff Chippewa, Red Lake Chippewa, Redwood, Rincon, Sac, Saisiyat, Sakuddeis, Salish, Salt River, Samish, Samoan, Samogitian, San Carlos Apache, San Idlefonso, San Juan, San Poil, Santa Clara, Sartar, Sauk-Suiattle, Selonian, Semigolian, Seminole, Senecan, Sephardim, Serano, Serb, Shasta, Shawnee, Shiite, Shinnecock, Shoalwater Bay, Shoshone, Sikh, Siletz, Silures, Sinhalese, Sioux, Siskiyou, Sisseton, Siuslaw, Skalvian, S'Klallam, Skokomish, Skyomish, Slovene, Snohomish, Snoqualmie, Soboba, Southern Cheyenne, Spokane, Squaxin Island, Steilacoom, Stillaquamish, Stockbridge, Sunni, Suquamish, Swinomish, Tadjik, Takhayuna, Tala, Talastari, Tamil, Tanaina, Taos, Tarim, Tasman, Tatar, Tesuque, Tlingit, Toltec, Tpe-ttckie-dhidie-Kouttchin, Tranjik-Kutchin, Truk, Tukkutih-Kutchin, Tulalip, Tungus, Turtle Mountain, Tuscarora, Turk, Turkmen, Tutsi, Ugalakmiut, Uintah, Umatilla, Umatilla, Umpqua, Uncompagre, U-nung'un, Upper Skagit, Ute, Uzbek, Vietnamese, Viking, Vunta-Kutchin, Wahpeton, Walla Walla, Wasco, Wembawemba, White Mountain Apache, Wichita, Wik-ungkan, Winnebago, Wiradjuri, Wylackie, Xhosa, Yahi, Yakama, Yakima, Yakut, Yanamamo, Yankton Sioux, Yellowknife, Yindjibarnd, Youkon Louchioux, Yukaghir, Yukonikhotana, Yullit, Yuma, Zjen-ta-Kouttchin, and Zulu.

So which one do we pick?

Edit: Minor edit. I had two thoughts going on at the same time, it made a sentence come out a bit garbled...

[Upchurch]

Originally posted by Yahweh

So which one do we pick? How about Paul Bunyan dragging his axe on the ground, thus creating the Grand Canyon?

[!Xx+-Rational-+xX!]

Prepare for war skeptics they have gone to far!

[Suezoled]

Southern, Yahweh dear. Southern. :D

[Mercutio]

Early this fall, the Park Service also approved a creationist text, "Grand Canyon: A Different View" for sale in park bookstores and museums. The book's editor, Tom Vail, writes: "For years, as a Colorado River guide I told people how the Grand Canyon was formed over the evolutionary time scale of millions of years. Then I met the Lord. Now, I have 'a different view of the Canyon, which, according to the Biblical time scale, can't possibly be more than about a few thousand years old.'"
That noise you heard was John Wesley Powell spinning violently in his grave. I remember as a child reading a biography of Powell, and seeing how he called the strata of the earth "the good book". So we have one good book of stone, another of myth...which one wins?

*sigh*

Yahweh, let's file a class-action suit on behalf of your entire list...

[Suezoled]

So just because some people found God (whoever that god may be), they also think they can have their own facts?

[pupdog]

I had heard about the plaques quoting Psalms, but I didn't know about the Creationist book in the park bookstore until I saw it in Bob Park's "What's New" (2 January 2004). I thought the park Service was supposed to EDUCATE visitors, not miseducate/indoctrinate/bamboozle them! Where can we direct our complaints about the park Service mission being redirected away from education? It was bad enough having a Secretary of the Interior being bored with the Grand Canyon--I'm ready to send in my income tax via prayer!

[Zep]

The contact page for the Grand Canyon Park (National Parks Service) is here (http://www.nps.gov/grca/pphtml/contact.html). Let's make an orderly queue, please.

[KelvinG]

From the article:

Early this fall, the Park Service also approved a creationist text, "Grand Canyon: A Different View" for sale in park bookstores and museums. The book's editor, Tom Vail, writes: "For years, as a Colorado River guide I told people how the Grand Canyon was formed over the evolutionary time scale of millions of years. Then I met the Lord. Now, I have 'a different view of the Canyon, which, according to the Biblical time scale, can't possibly be more than about a few thousand years old.'"

This could have just as easily been pulled from an article on "The Onion."

I had to read it a second time to be sure it wasn't satire.

[espritch]

The contact page for the Grand Canyon Park (National Parks Service) is here. Let's make an orderly queue, please.


They've heard from me. Thanks for the helpful link.

[RabbiSatan]

Yahweh, where did you get that list of creation myths?

[cosmic]

I wrote to the park's email and actually got a reply!

"Your e-mail inquiry regarding the sale of the gook "Grand Canyon: A Different View" by Tom Vail, in bookstores operated by the Grand Canyon Association, has been forwarded to this office for reply.


The book has been sent to the National Park Service Office of
Communications, in Washington, D.C., for review in terms of the book's appropriateness as a sales item in a National Park. Once the review has been completed and an opinion rendered, that information will be available to the public. We will keep your message on file in our office and forward a copy of that opinion to you."

I'll post a reply if I get one-- I'm more curious to find out on what basis an opinion will be rendered...

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by RabbiSatan
Yahweh, where did you get that list of creation myths?
I keep a lot of text documents stored on my harddrive, I found the one where I saved a list of Creation traditions.

The list specifically orginates from TalkOrigins.org - In fairness, creation and evolution deserve equal time in science classes (http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA040.html).

(I find it funny the way most people implicitly assume Biblical Creationism when talking about alternatives to Evolution...)

[fishbob]

I find it funny the way most people implicitly assume Biblical Creationism when talking about alternatives to Evolution.. Don't you think it would be great fun to present creationism in a science class? With all the supporting evidence for creationism, this would take about 15 minutes.

[the_ignored]

That's been discussed extensively here (http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=70082) :

from a post there: (NOT ME!)
From message ID <238b53a4.0312081601.71dada5f@posting.google.com> (hasn't shown up on Google yet):

"Hello Lenny,

Thanks very much for bringing your information of Steve Austin to our attention. Steve Austin was one of the 100 or so Research Permit holders in our park. All Permit holders are obligated under the Permit requirements to submit articles or presentations to the park for the purpose of educating interested park staff on the nature of their research. Steve came to present his research under the guidelines of discussing only his study methods and results (the same constraints for all research presenters) - and that is exactly what he did without one reference to Noah, Noah's flood, or any other creationist ideas.

I don't know what individual rangers said to him privately after his presentation regarding his study; however during the public question and answer period he was scrutinized and questioned very rigorously by a few of the Park Interpretive Rangers. No one at any time expressed interest in changing our interpretive signs to include creationist views.

I am sorry to learn Steve Austin is not being truthful about the circumstances of his research presentation. Our policy is to allow all researchers an opportunity to present their data in a public forum at the Park; however, if researchers abuse this privilege by false proclamations to further their own agenda, we will have to take this into consideration when selecting speakers in the future.

Sincerely,
Emma


Emma P. Benenati, Ph.D.
Ecologist / Research Coordinator - Grand Canyon National Park"

To do with the creationist himself, not the book, but that gets discussed later on...on page 2, you may find some more encouraging news maybe...

[MRC_Hans]

All empires eventually fall. Some say that any empire carries the seed of its downfall within it. We can now see what will be the eventual downfall of the currently so powerful American Empire: Stupidity and ignorance. With a government that has opted to keep its citizens in medieval ignorance where it can, USA will eventually fall behind in the inteligence race. Whatever the next empire is to be, it will be an area that allows knowledge.

:D ;) :D

Hans

[ReasonableDoubt]

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
..., USA will eventually fall behind in the inteligence race. :p

Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Whatever the next empire is to be, it will be an area that allows knowledge.Who made up that rule?

[the_ignored]

You know it had to happen: the inevitable AIG commentary (http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2004/0106gc.asp). Guess what they blame the reaction on. Is it the bad science that the YEC's are pushing?

<see Glenn Morton tear the YEC geology people several new ones on Theology Web, Natural Science section!>


Nope! It's human's refusal to "acknowledge God" again! Sigh. Is anyone getting sick of their constant ad-homs?

[MRC_Hans]

Originally posted by ReasonableDoubt
:p

Who made up that rule? Just my assertion. But technology wins over non-technology (at least in the long run), knowledge is power, etc.

Hans

[fishbob]

With a government that has opted to keep its citizens in medieval ignorance where it can, USA will eventually fall behind in the inteligence race. Whatever the next empire is to be, it will be an area that allows knowledge. That sounds suspiciously like evolution - survival of the fittest and all.

[CapelDodger]

from MRC_Hans:
All empires eventually fall.
All previous empires have fallen. OK, heat-death of the Universe will see everything off but inthe short-term - say, until our species splits into distinct successor species - the same empire could survive. Quite possibly beyond that point. The empire that rules now may not be the apparently obvious one (the nation-state of the USA). And the tools of empire - PR, technological monopoly and financial dominance - have never been so advanced. This one could be here to stay.

[the_ignored]

More whining (http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2004/0108gc_book_ban.asp) by the AIG people about their precious book.

If it wasn't filled with bull, maybe I could sympathize with them, but even so, these people, who make all of their members sign yearly oaths in order to join and stay in their group, are NOW all of a sudden "against censorship"?!

You can bet that the public will eat this up! Nothing like playing the victim of "the evil evolutionists" to get sympathy.

What we ought to do, is get a detailed rebuttal of that book made, and sold in the same place. We'll see if they're still against "censorship" then!

The really devious part of their claims is the old "what have people to fear from another point of view" ploy.


Well, if it's complete bs. Only a detailed rebuttal can get us out of the mess those lying sobs have put us in.

Man, they are good at propaganda, are they not?

[c4ts]

Originally posted by Yahweh

What kind of Creationist explanation are they looking for.

How about a giant lightning bolt that vaporized the the rock of the Grand Canyon (which mysteriously ages the rock 2 billion years).

There are Creation traditions from other religions and cultures, including, but not limited to, the Aaragon, Abenaki, Acoma, Ainu, Aleut, Amunge, Angevin, Anishinabek, Anvik-Shageluk, Apache, Arapaho, Ararapivka, Arikara, Armenian, Arrernte, Ashkenazim, Assiniboine, Athabascan, Athena, Aztec, Babylonian, Balinese, Bannock, Bantu, Basque, Blackfoot, Blood, Bosnian, Breton, Brul, Bundjalung, Burns Paiute, Caddo, Cahuilla, Catalan, Cayuga, Cayuse, Celt, Chehalis, Chelan, Cherokee, Chewella, Cheyenne, Chickasaw, Chinook, Chippewa, Chirachaua, Choctaw, Chukchi, Coeur d'Alene, Columbia River, Colville, Comanche, Congolese, Concow, Coquille, Cow Creek, Cowlitz, Cree, Creek, Croat, Crow, Crow Creek, Cumbres, Curonian, Cushite, Cut Head, Da'an, Devon, Dihai-Kutchin, Diyari, Dogon, Duwamish, Egyptian, Elwha, Eritrean, Eskimo, Esrolvuli, Eta, Even, Evenk, Flathead, Fijian, Fox, Fuegan, Gaul, Gooniyandi, Gond, Govi Basin Mongolian, Grand Ronde, Gros Ventre, Haida, Han, Haranding, Havasupai, Hendriki, Heortling, Hidatsa, Hindi, Hmong, HoChunk, Hoh, Hoopa, Hopi, Hunkpapa, Hutu, Ik-kil-lin, Inca, Innu, Intsi Dindjich, Inuit, Iroquois, Isleta, Itchali, Itelemen, It-ka-lya-ruin, Itkpe'lit, Itku'dlin, Jicarilla Apache, Jotvingian, Kaiyuhkhotana, Kalapuya, Kalispel, Kamchandal, Kansa, Karuk, Katshikotin, Kaurna, Kaw, Kazahk, Ketschetnaer, Khanti, Khoi-San, Khymer, Kickapoo, Kiowa, Kirghiz, Kitchin-Kutchin, Klamath, Knaiakhotana, K'nyaw, Koch-Rajbongshi, Kolshina, Kono, Kootenai, Koyukukhotana, !Kung, Kurd, La Jolla, Lac Courte D'Oreille, Lac Du Flambeau, Laguna, Lake, Lakota, Lao, Latgalian, Leech Lake Chippewa, Lemmi, Lower Brul, Lower Yanktonai, Lowland Lummi, Lummi, Malawi, Makah, Mandan, Maori, Maricopan, Martinez, Mayan, Mazatec, Mednofski, Menominee, Meryam Mir, Mesa Grande, Mescalero Apache, Metlakatla, Miniconjou, Mission, Moallalla, Modoc, Mohawk, Mojave, Morongo, Muckleshoot, Murrinh-Patha, Nadruvian, Nagorno-Karabakh, Na-Kotchpo-tschig-Kouttchin, Nambe, Namib, Natche'-Kutehin, Navajo, Nes Pelem, Neyetse-kutchi, Nez Perce, Ngiyampaa, Nisqualli, Nnatsit-Kutchin, Nomelackie, Nooksack, Norman, Norse, Northern Cheyenne, Nyungar, Oglala, Ogorvalte, Ojibway, Okanagon, Okinawan, Olmec, Omaha, Oneida, Onondaga, Ordovices, Orlanthi, Osage, Osetto, O-til'-tin, Otoe, Paakantyi, Paiute, Pala Mission, Papago, Pawnee, Pazyryk, Pechango, Penan, Piegan, Pima, Pitt River, Ponca, Potowatomie, Prussian, Pueblo, Puyallup, Qiang, Quileute, Quinault, Red Cliff Chippewa, Red Lake Chippewa, Redwood, Rincon, Sac, Saisiyat, Sakuddeis, Salish, Salt River, Samish, Samoan, Samogitian, San Carlos Apache, San Idlefonso, San Juan, San Poil, Santa Clara, Sartar, Sauk-Suiattle, Selonian, Semigolian, Seminole, Senecan, Sephardim, Serano, Serb, Shasta, Shawnee, Shiite, Shinnecock, Shoalwater Bay, Shoshone, Sikh, Siletz, Silures, Sinhalese, Sioux, Siskiyou, Sisseton, Siuslaw, Skalvian, S'Klallam, Skokomish, Skyomish, Slovene, Snohomish, Snoqualmie, Soboba, Southern Cheyenne, Spokane, Squaxin Island, Steilacoom, Stillaquamish, Stockbridge, Sunni, Suquamish, Swinomish, Tadjik, Takhayuna, Tala, Talastari, Tamil, Tanaina, Taos, Tarim, Tasman, Tatar, Tesuque, Tlingit, Toltec, Tpe-ttckie-dhidie-Kouttchin, Tranjik-Kutchin, Truk, Tukkutih-Kutchin, Tulalip, Tungus, Turtle Mountain, Tuscarora, Turk, Turkmen, Tutsi, Ugalakmiut, Uintah, Umatilla, Umatilla, Umpqua, Uncompagre, U-nung'un, Upper Skagit, Ute, Uzbek, Vietnamese, Viking, Vunta-Kutchin, Wahpeton, Walla Walla, Wasco, Wembawemba, White Mountain Apache, Wichita, Wik-ungkan, Winnebago, Wiradjuri, Wylackie, Xhosa, Yahi, Yakama, Yakima, Yakut, Yanamamo, Yankton Sioux, Yellowknife, Yindjibarnd, Youkon Louchioux, Yukaghir, Yukonikhotana, Yullit, Yuma, Zjen-ta-Kouttchin, and Zulu.

So which one do we pick?


Can't go wrong with !Kung.

[elliotfc]

Originally posted by Zep
For goodness' sake, ENOUGH, DUBYA!! Siddown, shuddup and leave the US National Parks alone.

What the hell has got into you? Why do you have to deface and denigrate one of the USA's and the world's greatest wonders like this? Just let people look at it and walk in it and wonder to themselves WITHOUT having to be bombarded by your boring blinkered buddies. Just keep all your religious crapposity the hell out of there, OK?

Idiot.

Eh? Deface and denigrate one of the "world's greatest wonders"? Do you think the Grand Canyon cares what is said about it?

Tour guides say things. If you have a problem with the script, go pass some laws, or call the ACLU.

By implicating Bush, are you saying that you KNOW for a fact that before Bush was inaugurated, tour guides did not say such things? Or do you just believe that these things are related?

It's nice that you care about the Grand Canyon's reputation, or your take on what has happened over the course of millions of years. You go give those tour guides a good talking to and set them straight, and force them to say the correct things.

Fact is, you CAN explain how the Grand Canyon was created in a thousand different ways. You just want your way to be the only explanation, even though no human being has witnessed the formation, gradual or catastrophic. So you would have the law enforce belief, and exclude other beliefs. And you wonder why people refer to science as a religion. Dogma dogma dogma, and exclude the other dogmas.

-Elliot

[pupdog]

From Elliot:
Fact is, you CAN explain how the Grand Canyon was created in a thousand different ways.

However, about 900 of those explanations will be totally whacky, some will be sensible but contradicted by other evidence, and some may be reasonable but supporting evidence is lacking. This leaves a small number of explanations that are reasonable and supported by evidence. Not surprisingly, these are the explanations that concur with the best notions of the science of geology. This is not a matter of dogma--various geologic explanations have changed when additional or improved evidence was found (for example, J Harlen Bretz's 'catastropic' explanation for the Channelled Scablands).

[Kilted_Canuck]

Originally posted by Yahweh

What kind of Creationist explanation are they looking for.

How about a giant lightning bolt that vaporized the the rock of the Grand Canyon (which mysteriously ages the rock 2 billion years).

There are Creation traditions from other religions and cultures, including, but not limited to, the Aaragon, Abenaki, Acoma, Ainu, Aleut, Amunge, Angevin, Anishinabek, Anvik-Shageluk, Apache, Arapaho, Ararapivka, Arikara, Armenian, Arrernte, Ashkenazim, Assiniboine, Athabascan, Athena, Aztec, Babylonian, Balinese, Bannock, Bantu, Basque, Blackfoot, Blood, Bosnian, Breton, Brul, Bundjalung, Burns Paiute, Caddo, Cahuilla, Catalan, Cayuga, Cayuse, Celt, Chehalis, Chelan, Cherokee, Chewella, Cheyenne, Chickasaw, Chinook, Chippewa, Chirachaua, Choctaw, Chukchi, Coeur d'Alene, Columbia River, Colville, Comanche, Congolese, Concow, Coquille, Cow Creek, Cowlitz, Cree, Creek, Croat, Crow, Crow Creek, Cumbres, Curonian, Cushite, Cut Head, Da'an, Devon, Dihai-Kutchin, Diyari, Dogon, Duwamish, Egyptian, Elwha, Eritrean, Eskimo, Esrolvuli, Eta, Even, Evenk, Flathead, Fijian, Fox, Fuegan, Gaul, Gooniyandi, Gond, Govi Basin Mongolian, Grand Ronde, Gros Ventre, Haida, Han, Haranding, Havasupai, Hendriki, Heortling, Hidatsa, Hindi, Hmong, HoChunk, Hoh, Hoopa, Hopi, Hunkpapa, Hutu, Ik-kil-lin, Inca, Innu, Intsi Dindjich, Inuit, Iroquois, Isleta, Itchali, Itelemen, It-ka-lya-ruin, Itkpe'lit, Itku'dlin, Jicarilla Apache, Jotvingian, Kaiyuhkhotana, Kalapuya, Kalispel, Kamchandal, Kansa, Karuk, Katshikotin, Kaurna, Kaw, Kazahk, Ketschetnaer, Khanti, Khoi-San, Khymer, Kickapoo, Kiowa, Kirghiz, Kitchin-Kutchin, Klamath, Knaiakhotana, K'nyaw, Koch-Rajbongshi, Kolshina, Kono, Kootenai, Koyukukhotana, !Kung, Kurd, La Jolla, Lac Courte D'Oreille, Lac Du Flambeau, Laguna, Lake, Lakota, Lao, Latgalian, Leech Lake Chippewa, Lemmi, Lower Brul, Lower Yanktonai, Lowland Lummi, Lummi, Malawi, Makah, Mandan, Maori, Maricopan, Martinez, Mayan, Mazatec, Mednofski, Menominee, Meryam Mir, Mesa Grande, Mescalero Apache, Metlakatla, Miniconjou, Mission, Moallalla, Modoc, Mohawk, Mojave, Morongo, Muckleshoot, Murrinh-Patha, Nadruvian, Nagorno-Karabakh, Na-Kotchpo-tschig-Kouttchin, Nambe, Namib, Natche'-Kutehin, Navajo, Nes Pelem, Neyetse-kutchi, Nez Perce, Ngiyampaa, Nisqualli, Nnatsit-Kutchin, Nomelackie, Nooksack, Norman, Norse, Northern Cheyenne, Nyungar, Oglala, Ogorvalte, Ojibway, Okanagon, Okinawan, Olmec, Omaha, Oneida, Onondaga, Ordovices, Orlanthi, Osage, Osetto, O-til'-tin, Otoe, Paakantyi, Paiute, Pala Mission, Papago, Pawnee, Pazyryk, Pechango, Penan, Piegan, Pima, Pitt River, Ponca, Potowatomie, Prussian, Pueblo, Puyallup, Qiang, Quileute, Quinault, Red Cliff Chippewa, Red Lake Chippewa, Redwood, Rincon, Sac, Saisiyat, Sakuddeis, Salish, Salt River, Samish, Samoan, Samogitian, San Carlos Apache, San Idlefonso, San Juan, San Poil, Santa Clara, Sartar, Sauk-Suiattle, Selonian, Semigolian, Seminole, Senecan, Sephardim, Serano, Serb, Shasta, Shawnee, Shiite, Shinnecock, Shoalwater Bay, Shoshone, Sikh, Siletz, Silures, Sinhalese, Sioux, Siskiyou, Sisseton, Siuslaw, Skalvian, S'Klallam, Skokomish, Skyomish, Slovene, Snohomish, Snoqualmie, Soboba, Southern Cheyenne, Spokane, Squaxin Island, Steilacoom, Stillaquamish, Stockbridge, Sunni, Suquamish, Swinomish, Tadjik, Takhayuna, Tala, Talastari, Tamil, Tanaina, Taos, Tarim, Tasman, Tatar, Tesuque, Tlingit, Toltec, Tpe-ttckie-dhidie-Kouttchin, Tranjik-Kutchin, Truk, Tukkutih-Kutchin, Tulalip, Tungus, Turtle Mountain, Tuscarora, Turk, Turkmen, Tutsi, Ugalakmiut, Uintah, Umatilla, Umatilla, Umpqua, Uncompagre, U-nung'un, Upper Skagit, Ute, Uzbek, Vietnamese, Viking, Vunta-Kutchin, Wahpeton, Walla Walla, Wasco, Wembawemba, White Mountain Apache, Wichita, Wik-ungkan, Winnebago, Wiradjuri, Wylackie, Xhosa, Yahi, Yakama, Yakima, Yakut, Yanamamo, Yankton Sioux, Yellowknife, Yindjibarnd, Youkon Louchioux, Yukaghir, Yukonikhotana, Yullit, Yuma, Zjen-ta-Kouttchin, and Zulu.

So which one do we pick?

Edit: Minor edit. I had two thoughts going on at the same time, it made a sentence come out a bit garbled...

They prefer to be called Inuit. ;)

[Zep]

Originally posted by elliotfc
Eh? Deface and denigrate one of the "world's greatest wonders"? Do you think the Grand Canyon cares what is said about it?

OK, OK - point taken. But it IS considered a world wonder. There are very few places like that on this globe.

Tour guides say things. If you have a problem with the script, go pass some laws, or call the ACLU.

Seen my location recently? <----- :)

By implicating Bush, are you saying that you KNOW for a fact that before Bush was inaugurated, tour guides did not say such things? Or do you just believe that these things are related?

When I visited Grand Canyon and environs in 1996, the park staff did not say any such things, and there were no such books on sale there. If I take the OP on face value, this situation HAS changed as described. Bush introduced "faith-based" policies into his government and agenda, and it appears to have "trickled down" to the National Parks Service in a bizarre way.

It's nice that you care about the Grand Canyon's reputation, or your take on what has happened over the course of millions of years. You go give those tour guides a good talking to and set them straight, and force them to say the correct things.

Perhaps their bosses can do that for everyone. If they are allowed and encouraged to do so...

Fact is, you CAN explain how the Grand Canyon was created in a thousand different ways. You just want your way to be the only explanation, even though no human being has witnessed the formation, gradual or catastrophic. So you would have the law enforce belief, and exclude other beliefs. And you wonder why people refer to science as a religion. Dogma dogma dogma, and exclude the other dogmas.

-Elliot

Nope, you are quite wrong on both counts.

First, I have said nothing here or above about my own vision or theory of how the Grand Canyon was formed. I know there are a number of competing and viable "mainline science" views at least, so I'm hardly pushing one line here. Dogma-free zone! But what I DO object to is the pushing of a religious belief as though it were fact, to the exclusion of other more viable and rational theories.

Second, the process of the formation of Grand Canyon was discovered in the 1800's and it is continuing to happen today, and it is highly observable and measurable. So I HAVE been around to see it happen...just a tiny bit anyway!

[c4ts]

Originally posted by Yahweh
What kind of Creationist explanation are they looking for.

How about a giant lightning bolt that vaporized the the rock of the Grand Canyon (which mysteriously ages the rock 2 billion years).

There are Creation traditions from other religions and cultures, including, but not limited to, the Aaragon, Abenaki, Acoma, Ainu, Aleut, Amunge, Angevin, Anishinabek, Anvik-Shageluk, Apache, Arapaho, Ararapivka, Arikara, Armenian, Arrernte, Ashkenazim, Assiniboine, Athabascan, Athena, Aztec, Babylonian, Balinese, Bannock, Bantu, Basque, Blackfoot, Blood, Bosnian, Breton, Brul, Bundjalung, Burns Paiute, Caddo, Cahuilla, Catalan, Cayuga, Cayuse, Celt, Chehalis, Chelan, Cherokee, Chewella, Cheyenne, Chickasaw, Chinook, Chippewa, Chirachaua, Choctaw, Chukchi, Coeur d'Alene, Columbia River, Colville, Comanche, Congolese, Concow, Coquille, Cow Creek, Cowlitz, Cree, Creek, Croat, Crow, Crow Creek, Cumbres, Curonian, Cushite, Cut Head, Da'an, Devon, Dihai-Kutchin, Diyari, Dogon, Duwamish, Egyptian, Elwha, Eritrean, Eskimo, Esrolvuli, Eta, Even, Evenk, Flathead, Fijian, Fox, Fuegan, Gaul, Gooniyandi, Gond, Govi Basin Mongolian, Grand Ronde, Gros Ventre, Haida, Han, Haranding, Havasupai, Hendriki, Heortling, Hidatsa, Hindi, Hmong, HoChunk, Hoh, Hoopa, Hopi, Hunkpapa, Hutu, Ik-kil-lin, Inca, Innu, Intsi Dindjich, Inuit, Iroquois, Isleta, Itchali, Itelemen, It-ka-lya-ruin, Itkpe'lit, Itku'dlin, Jicarilla Apache, Jotvingian, Kaiyuhkhotana, Kalapuya, Kalispel, Kamchandal, Kansa, Karuk, Katshikotin, Kaurna, Kaw, Kazahk, Ketschetnaer, Khanti, Khoi-San, Khymer, Kickapoo, Kiowa, Kirghiz, Kitchin-Kutchin, Klamath, Knaiakhotana, K'nyaw, Koch-Rajbongshi, Kolshina, Kono, Kootenai, Koyukukhotana, !Kung, Kurd, La Jolla, Lac Courte D'Oreille, Lac Du Flambeau, Laguna, Lake, Lakota, Lao, Latgalian, Leech Lake Chippewa, Lemmi, Lower Brul, Lower Yanktonai, Lowland Lummi, Lummi, Malawi, Makah, Mandan, Maori, Maricopan, Martinez, Mayan, Mazatec, Mednofski, Menominee, Meryam Mir, Mesa Grande, Mescalero Apache, Metlakatla, Miniconjou, Mission, Moallalla, Modoc, Mohawk, Mojave, Morongo, Muckleshoot, Murrinh-Patha, Nadruvian, Nagorno-Karabakh, Na-Kotchpo-tschig-Kouttchin, Nambe, Namib, Natche'-Kutehin, Navajo, Nes Pelem, Neyetse-kutchi, Nez Perce, Ngiyampaa, Nisqualli, Nnatsit-Kutchin, Nomelackie, Nooksack, Norman, Norse, Northern Cheyenne, Nyungar, Oglala, Ogorvalte, Ojibway, Okanagon, Okinawan, Olmec, Omaha, Oneida, Onondaga, Ordovices, Orlanthi, Osage, Osetto, O-til'-tin, Otoe, Paakantyi, Paiute, Pala Mission, Papago, Pawnee, Pazyryk, Pechango, Penan, Piegan, Pima, Pitt River, Ponca, Potowatomie, Prussian, Pueblo, Puyallup, Qiang, Quileute, Quinault, Red Cliff Chippewa, Red Lake Chippewa, Redwood, Rincon, Sac, Saisiyat, Sakuddeis, Salish, Salt River, Samish, Samoan, Samogitian, San Carlos Apache, San Idlefonso, San Juan, San Poil, Santa Clara, Sartar, Sauk-Suiattle, Selonian, Semigolian, Seminole, Senecan, Sephardim, Serano, Serb, Shasta, Shawnee, Shiite, Shinnecock, Shoalwater Bay, Shoshone, Sikh, Siletz, Silures, Sinhalese, Sioux, Siskiyou, Sisseton, Siuslaw, Skalvian, S'Klallam, Skokomish, Skyomish, Slovene, Snohomish, Snoqualmie, Soboba, Southern Cheyenne, Spokane, Squaxin Island, Steilacoom, Stillaquamish, Stockbridge, Sunni, Suquamish, Swinomish, Tadjik, Takhayuna, Tala, Talastari, Tamil, Tanaina, Taos, Tarim, Tasman, Tatar, Tesuque, Tlingit, Toltec, Tpe-ttckie-dhidie-Kouttchin, Tranjik-Kutchin, Truk, Tukkutih-Kutchin, Tulalip, Tungus, Turtle Mountain, Tuscarora, Turk, Turkmen, Tutsi, Ugalakmiut, Uintah, Umatilla, Umatilla, Umpqua, Uncompagre, U-nung'un, Upper Skagit, Ute, Uzbek, Vietnamese, Viking, Vunta-Kutchin, Wahpeton, Walla Walla, Wasco, Wembawemba, White Mountain Apache, Wichita, Wik-ungkan, Winnebago, Wiradjuri, Wylackie, Xhosa, Yahi, Yakama, Yakima, Yakut, Yanamamo, Yankton Sioux, Yellowknife, Yindjibarnd, Youkon Louchioux, Yukaghir, Yukonikhotana, Yullit, Yuma, Zjen-ta-Kouttchin, and Zulu.

So which one do we pick?

Edit: Minor edit. I had two thoughts going on at the same time, it made a sentence come out a bit garbled...

[Camillus]

Originally posted by Kilted_Canuck


They prefer to be called Inuit. ;)

Ain't necessarily so...At least according to the Alaskan Language Center (http://www.uaf.edu/anlc/inuitoreskimo.html)