Four Police Officers Killed In Washington Coffee House

[Bikewer]

Various agencies reporting the murder of four police officers this morning:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34194122/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

Apparently these officers were preparing for the morning shift, checking their laptop computers when an individual walked in and shot all four.
The type of weapon employed was not described in the article, and authorities were usure if any of the officers returned fire.
The individual fled on foot, but according to the article there's the possibility of a getaway driver.

The Washington area has had some problems of late, with an individual arrested recently for murdering a police officer Halloween night.

We had a similar attack here in University City a few months ago; a long-time veteran police sergeant was sitting in his car making some notes on the computer after his men handled a call. An individual approached the car and simply shot him through the window.
The suspect was caught a few days later...An apparent psychotic with delusions of starting a race war....

Now for the "cynical old copper" bit.... Having four officers clustered together like this in a public restaurant on what is likely a regular basis is not tactically sound. Police officers are always potential targets for lunatics, fanatics, and people seeking revenge.
I never eat in public places in uniform, I either go to the station or eat in my car. I put my car in a location where I cannot be approached without warning.
Paranoid? Read the above.

[gtc]

Paranoid?

I would have thought so, but not now.

I have seen plenty of cops buying their lunches from cafes and food courts near me but never seen them sitting down to eat. That makes sense in light of what you write.

[Soapy Sam]

Not being a policeman, what little I know of police work is based on TV , so probably nonsense.
Can you explain what is involved in " preparing for the morning shift, checking their laptop computers"? Is it normal procedure for policemen to don uniform and go to a restaurant with laptops in order to prepare for their shift? Policemen carry laptops?
I thought they went to work in civvies, changed into uniform, listened to a briefing of some sort and went out on the street, or to do paperwork or prepare for a court appearance or some such.
Why were these men in a restaurant looking at laptops instead of in a police station?

[Tiktaalik]

Not being a policeman, what little I know of police work is based on TV , so probably nonsense.
Can you explain what is involved in " preparing for the morning shift, checking their laptop computers"? Is it normal procedure for policemen to don uniform and go to a restaurant with laptops in order to prepare for their shift? Policemen carry laptops?
I thought they went to work in civvies, changed into uniform, listened to a briefing of some sort and went out on the street, or to do paperwork or prepare for a court appearance or some such.
Why were these men in a restaurant looking at laptops instead of in a police station?

Personally, I have a take-home vehicle, so I go to work in uniform, as do all my staff. Not around here, we're rural, but in many places it's pretty standard for cops to eat in local businesses. All my staff carry laptops & are required to check their email for messages on a regular basis. We don't have a "bullpen" or computer area, they just plug in to the network where they can. They also write all their reports on their laptops; there is a heck of a lot of paperwork that goes with being an officer, despite what you see on TV. We also don't have enough people on at any given time to do daily briefings or shift meetings; we do them once every two weeks. Everything else gets communicated in person, by phone, over the radio, or...via laptops.

[Thunder]

Now for the "cynical old copper" bit.... Having four officers clustered together like this in a public restaurant on what is likely a regular basis is not tactically sound. Police officers are always potential targets for lunatics, fanatics, and people seeking revenge.
I never eat in public places in uniform, I either go to the station or eat in my car. I put my car in a location where I cannot be approached without warning.
Paranoid? Read the above.

I see cops eating together all the time. Though, this is NYC. And cops here are not a force..they are a literal army of 40,000.

I would not expect such a thing to happen again any time soon.

[WildCat]

Wow, apparently the top suspect in this is a one Maurice Clemmons, who was pardoned 9 years ago by Arkansas governor, creationist, and 2008 GOP Presidential hopeful Mike Huckabee: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2010385617_webmansought29.html

And until recently he was in jail awaiting trial for the rape of a child. Released for $15,000 bail, despite having warrants in Arkansas.

He also has many other run-ins with the law and sounds bat-guano insane to me.

Hat-tip to LGF (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/35236_Huckabee_Pardoned_Cop_Killer).

I wonder if Huckabee pardoned him because he found Jeeeebus?

[Bikewer]

Glad to see there's a suspect, at least. He sounds even loonier than the suspect in the case I mentioned above.
What was really frightening about the local case was that after the suspect was arrested, his girlfriend wrote letters to the local paper and the police confirming that he was a messiah and that perhaps "something should happen" to some more police.
Amazing that these people are able to home in on fellow loonies....

[Peephole]

Pretty disgusting that it takes less than 24 hours to turn the murder of four political.

[gumboot]

The papers here are quoting officials in the USA as saying it appears to be a pre-planned ambush type attack. Is there anything to indicate these officers were actually in uniform?

People who attack police officers make me sick.

[WildCat]

Pretty disgusting that it takes less than 24 hours to turn the murder of four political.
I didn't make it political, the facts did.

Had Huckabee not pardoned him he'd still be in jail in Arkansas, and those 4 cops would be alive. And they had 9 kids between them. :(

Like it or not, it's political. Not the first time (http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2007/12/05/huckabees_willie_horton/) Huckabee pardoned the wrong guy either.

[Skeptic Ginger]

The papers here are quoting officials in the USA as saying it appears to be a pre-planned ambush type attack. Is there anything to indicate these officers were actually in uniform?

People who attack police officers make me sick.They were on duty with marked patrol cars outside the coffee shop. I do believe they were in uniform.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Pretty disgusting that it takes less than 24 hours to turn the murder of four political.When the shoe fits...

I was disgusted this guy was out on bail. He was facing a life sentence for a "three strikes" conviction and from the sound of it, he should never have been granted a 10% bond. He paid $15,000 of a $150,000 bond. It's likely someone's house other than his is the collateral. Even if he is not guilty of these murders, he still should not be out on bail.

But then I read this article from an Arkansas paper: Huckabee, prosecutors go on offensive - They trade jabs over sentencing, pardoning of killers, other thugs (http://www.arkansasleader.com/frontstories/st_06_23_04/huckabee.html)Until now, Huckabee has refused to comment on his controversial policy of making violent prisoners eligible for parole– they include murderers, armed robbers and rapists, who often return to a life of crime after they're freed – but in a statement to The Leader this week, he lashed out at prosecutors for not doing more to keep prisoners behind bars – to which Pulaski County Prosecuting Attor-ney Larry Jegley had this response: "That's a load of baloney."

If Clemmons is the murderer, it would seem this tragedy not only shouldn't have happened by a careless bail setting, but it also shouldn't have happened by a governor who has been lax about granting clemency to violent repeat offenders.

And I'll throw a religion snipe in here as well. You have to wonder, if like George W Bush, Huckabee makes rash decisions then believes God guides him, no reason to doubt those rash decisions. I'm speculating here, so I leave that as a question, not as a conclusion. But there are news media comments about the Evangelical connection here beyond my speculation:

Here's more on "Huckabee's Plethora of Pardons." (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Vote2008/story?id=3983797&page=1)None of the prosecutors were ever told why Huckabee felt compelled to have a hand in freeing so many prisoners, though all of them speculate that his deeply religious nature led to a strong belief in repentance and forgiveness. In some cases, prosecutors say, evangelical leaders attested that a prisoner had found Jesus and that seemed to influence the governor's thoughts.


It's the violent nature of the prisoners involved here that should lead one to question Huckabee's decision making process.
prosecutors in Arkansas say their real concern was with the pardons and commutations Huckabee granted to violent offenders, especially the approximately one dozen murderers. An Arkansas Democrat-Gazette review in 2004 concluded that state records indicate "at least 9 percent of the prisoners who benefited from Huckabee's clemencies ended up in prison again."

In recent days media attention has focused on the case of Wayne DuMond, a rapist whom the Arkansas Parole Board paroled after Huckabee advocated on his behalf. DuMond went on to rape and kill at least one other woman.

Paroles, in reality, are decisions made entirely by the parole board, and Huckabee has said the decision was not his to make, which is factually correct, though some members of the board have reportedly suggested Huckabee influenced their decision greatly. I sincerely doubt only 9 of these guys getting a Governor's clemency went on to reoffend. I think anyone familiar with such statistics would say that was a generously low number. Probably like Clemmons, those that moved out of the state were lost to follow up.

[steve s]

Wow, apparently the top suspect in this is a one Maurice Clemmons, who was pardoned 9 years ago by Arkansas governor, creationist, and 2008 GOP Presidential hopeful Mike Huckabee:

The name Maurice Clemmons is an old Algonquin name which translates as "Willie Horton."

Steve S.

[Puppycow]

I'd like to associate myself with Wildcat and Skeptigirl's remarks.

In Dumond's case, at least, an evangelical preacher was leading the charge to get him released, and a religious conversion seemed to play a significant role in that.

I don't yet know what role, if any, religion played in Clemmon's release, but I'm sure we'll find out.

[BTMO]

The papers here are quoting officials in the USA as saying it appears to be a pre-planned ambush type attack. Is there anything to indicate these officers were actually in uniform?

People who attack police officers make me sick.


People who murder anyone make me sick.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Wow, apparently the top suspect in this is a one Maurice Clemmons, who was pardoned 9 years ago by Arkansas governor, creationist, and 2008 GOP Presidential hopeful Mike Huckabee:

Uh oh. I do hope no one accidentally mentions this in 2012. It's really not relevant. :)

[steve s]

Uh oh. I do hope no one accidentally mentions this in 2012. It's really not relevant. :)

Huckabee woke up this morning thinking he had a shot at being the next president. He'll go to sleep tonight knowing that he has no hope at all. Strange how life works sometimes.

Steve S.

[Puppycow]

(Older article)
Huckabee Pardons Under Scrutiny (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/12/10/politics/p001022S74.DTL)

As governor of Arkansas, Mike Huckabee had a hand in twice as many pardons and commutations as his three predecessors combined.

Although the Republican presidential contender and Southern Baptist preacher plays down any personal involvement in that release, Huckabee granted 1,033 pardons and commutations in his 10 1/2 years as governor of Arkansas. The acts of clemency benefited the stepson of a staff member, murderers who worked at the governor's mansion, a rock star and inmates who received good words from their pastors.

"It seems to be true at least anecdotally that if a minister is involved, (Huckabee) seems likely to grant clemency," prosecutor Robert Herzfeld said in 2004 after successfully battling the then-governor over the release of a killer.

[Dancing David]

Sad, sad, sad.

Sigh.

[JHawke]

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/11/30/washington.police.shooting/index.html

It seems that the police have tracked him down.. And according to a danish newspaper (http://ekstrabladet.dk/112/article1262477.ece) the police have fired several shots at the house, when the suspect failed to respond to megaphones and even the alleged explosions the police set off to get his attention.

As said - no response, and police spokesman Jeff Kappel said that they are not sure that he is in the house.

[commandlinegamer]

pretty unsurprising that it takes less than 24 hours to turn the murder of four political.

ftfy.

[Kestrel]

Is there any physical evidence linking Clemmons to this crime?

[Policenaut]

I agree that Huckabee made the wrong decision to commute this guys sentence but lets remember that this guy slipped through the cracks. His family never admitted him into a mental hospital even though he is obviously nuts. For his recent rape/felony trial the psychologist deemed him competent to stand trial. The the last sentence of the seattle article:

"He was returned to prison on a parole violation. But in what appears to have been a mistake, Clemmons was not actually served with the arrest warrants until leaving prison three years later. As a result, Clemmons' attorney argued that the charges should be dismissed because too much time had passed. Prosecutors dropped the charges."

So due to a series of mistakes and bad decisions it was allowed to happen. I don't blame it all on Huckabee but he surely made the wrong decision and probably for the wrong reasons.

[Soapy Sam]

Personally, I have a take-home vehicle, so I go to work in uniform, as do all my staff. Not around here, we're rural, but in many places it's pretty standard for cops to eat in local businesses. All my staff carry laptops & are required to check their email for messages on a regular basis. We don't have a "bullpen" or computer area, they just plug in to the network where they can. They also write all their reports on their laptops; there is a heck of a lot of paperwork that goes with being an officer, despite what you see on TV. We also don't have enough people on at any given time to do daily briefings or shift meetings; we do them once every two weeks. Everything else gets communicated in person, by phone, over the radio, or...via laptops.

Thanks. I live & learn.

[The Mutha]

Latest word on CNN is that the guy wasn't in the house when they finally went in. So, he's still out there somewhere. Hopefully, he won't hurt or kill anybody else before he gets caught.

[GreyICE]

Pretty disgusting that it takes less than 24 hours to turn the murder of four political.

This is political. There are crimes that are political and crimes that are not.

These people are specifically dead because Huckabee found Jesus and decided to base his decision making off the crazy idea that a 2,000 year old book and people's dedication to following the contents of it was a better barometer of 'criminal' than our justice system.

Now if new facts are uncovered, old facts are questioned, or something else comes to light, I'll revisit this, but at the moment it's looking a lot like Mike Huckabee and his religion killed 4 people.

[Skeptic]

And I'll throw a religion snipe in here as well. You have to wonder, if like George W Bush...

DING DING DING DING DING!!!!

Bad thing happens. Bush blamed. "Sophisticated" analysis of bad thing's "real reason" finished. Mission accomplished.

[Ferguson]

I would have thought so, but not now.

I have seen plenty of cops buying their lunches from cafes and food courts near me but never seen them sitting down to eat. That makes sense in light of what you write.

I used to frequent a Denny's near me where I often would see tables of four officers sitting and eating. Since random unprovoked attacks like this are usually rare and the result of an individual psychotic, a lot of departments probably haven't considered the threat.

[tyr_13]

DING DING DING DING DING!!!!

Bad thing happens. Bush blamed. "Sophisticated" analysis of bad thing's "real reason" finished. Mission accomplished.

That's it? You didn't even read what she wrote did you? You saw Bush's name and assumed he was being blamed. How about you address what was actually said rather than dismiss straw you've made up.

Got anything on the points being raised?

[eeyore1954]

This is political. There are crimes that are political and crimes that are not.

These people are specifically dead because Huckabee found Jesus and decided to base his decision making off the crazy idea that a 2,000 year old book and people's dedication to following the contents of it was a better barometer of 'criminal' than our justice system.

Now if new facts are uncovered, old facts are questioned, or something else comes to light, I'll revisit this, but at the moment it's looking a lot like Mike Huckabee and his religion killed 4 people.

Only evangelical Christians pardon criminals.

[WildCat]

Only evangelical Christians pardon criminals.
No, only evangelical Christians pardon criminals solely because they claim to have found Jeeeeeesus.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

DING DING DING DING DING!!!!

Bad thing happens. Bush blamed. "Sophisticated" analysis of bad thing's "real reason" finished. Mission accomplished.

They're like pre-programmed robots, aren't they?


Makes you wonder if they have the capacity to choose to be different?

[Skeptic Ginger]

Is there any physical evidence linking Clemmons to this crime?That hasn't been officially revealed yet but it looks like he left his car there when he fled and he left his blood there. He was reported now to have been driven to the Seattle house by a person who knows him. She called police after dropping him off. She said he was bleeding. The police say there is evidence he was at the house she said she took him to which also sounds like blood. And the police searched his house and they said there was evidence he went there after the shooting which again sounds like blood. And there is a guy saying the suspect spoke of shooting police though there is reward money someone could be motivated to lie for.

But he was gone before the police got to the last place he was supposed to be. So they have not caught him. But it does look like this is indeed the guy.

[Skeptic Ginger]

This is political. There are crimes that are political and crimes that are not.

These people are specifically dead because Huckabee found Jesus and decided to base his decision making off the crazy idea that a 2,000 year old book and people's dedication to following the contents of it was a better barometer of 'criminal' than our justice system.

Now if new facts are uncovered, old facts are questioned, or something else comes to light, I'll revisit this, but at the moment it's looking a lot like Mike Huckabee and his religion killed 4 people.That would be 5. The Arkansas rapist Huck let out also raped and murdered a woman.

[Skeptic Ginger]

That's it? You didn't even read what she wrote did you? You saw Bush's name and assumed he was being blamed. How about you address what was actually said rather than dismiss straw you've made up.

Got anything on the points being raised?Actually Bush in this case did the opposite. He refused to pardon murderers that found God. Karla Faye Tucker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karla_Faye_Tucker) was a famous case. OTOH, it is statistically probably Bush allowed at least one but maybe more innocent men to be executed because Bush refused to take his duty to review cases seriously.

[Travis]

Actually Bush in this case did the opposite. He refused to pardon murderers that found God. Karla Faye Tucker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karla_Faye_Tucker) was a famous case. OTOH, it is statistically probably Bush allowed at least one but maybe more innocent men to be executed because Bush refused to take his duty to review cases seriously.

Seems to me if you're relying on the Governor to determine the guilt/innocence of an accused murderer your justice system is screwed up.

[eeyore1954]

No, only evangelical Christians pardon criminals solely because they claim to have found Jeeeeeesus.
Is there any evidece he was pardoned solely because he claimed to have found Jesus.

These people are specifically dead because Huckabee found Jesus and decided to base his decision making off the crazy idea that a 2,000 year old book and people's dedication to following the contents of it was a better barometer of 'criminal' than our justice system.
Is there any evidence this is the case?

[eeyore1954]

http://www.arktimes.com/blogs/arkansasblog/2009/11/maurice_clemmons_record.aspx* Sentenced to 5 years for robbery in Pulaski County, Aug. 3, 1989.

* Sentenced to 8 years for burglary, theft and probation revocation in Pulaski County, Sept. 9, 1989

* Sentenced to an indeterminate amount for aggravated robbery and theft in Pulaski County, Nov. 15, 1989

* Sentenced to 20 years each for burglary and theft of property in Pulaski County, Feb. 23, 1990.

* Sentenced to 6 years for firearm possession in Pulaski County, Nov. 19, 1990.

Tyler said some sentences were concurrent and some consecutive. But the total effect of all these sentences was a sentence of 108 years.

On May 3, 2000, Gov. Mike Huckabee commuted Clemmons' sentence to 47 years, 5 months and 19 days, which made him eligible for parole that day. The Parole Board granted his parole July 13, 2000. He was released Aug. 1, 2000.

So he had served 10 years for several robberies commited when he was 16-17 . Is that an unusual commutation. I don't really know. The sentances seem excessive to me but maybe not in Arkansas.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Seems to me if you're relying on the Governor to determine the guilt/innocence of an accused murderer your justice system is screwed up.The justice system is screwed up. It hasn't yet figured out that eyewitness testimony is often flawed.

The governor can rely on educated qualified people to review the cases. The reason why this safety net matters is it is the one place where common sense can be injected into the system that otherwise typically acts on rules and procedures regardless of common sense. Thus you get frightening rulings like the recent minority comment from Scalia that is is OK to execute a known to be innocent person as long as you followed due process.

[fullflavormenthol]

The justice system is screwed up. It hasn't yet figured out that eyewitness testimony is often flawed.

The governor can rely on educated qualified people to review the cases. The reason why this safety net matters is it is the one place where common sense can be injected into the system that otherwise typically acts on rules and procedures regardless of common sense. Thus you get frightening rulings like the recent minority comment from Scalia that is is OK to execute a known to be innocent person as long as you followed due process.
Unfortunately it derives from precedent that states that the purpose of a trial is not to determine actual guilt or innocence.

[Puppycow]

Only evangelical Christians pardon criminals.

It's not just this one case with Huckabee.

Sure, it would be unfair to blame Huckabee if he was just following standard practice with clemency and got unlucky in one case. But Huckabee granted twice as many pardons and commutations as his three predecessors combined.

The Wayne DuMond case seems to be even more culpable, based on what we know so far. It seems that there was a wacky conspiracy about Bill Clinton and DuMond had an evangelical preacher go to bat for him. This seemed to sway the governor.

And these are just the more high-profile cases where we know that the pardoned criminal subsequently commited murder and was caught.

An Arkansas Democrat-Gazette review in 2004 concluded that state records indicate "at least 9 percent of the prisoners who benefited from Huckabee's clemencies ended up in prison again."

So it's a pattern, not just one or two cases.

[Bill Thompson]

Further evidence to me that human beings are animals and not a very good species to boot.

One of those cops is being talked about a lot around here as not having a mean bone in his body and a pure soul. It is a sad day.

Also, for what it is worth, the suspect has been known to think he is Jesus.

[Bill Thompson]

So it's a pattern, not just one or two cases.

9 percent is pretty low. I do not think this is where to point the finger.

[Bill Thompson]

Pretty disgusting that it takes less than 24 hours to turn the murder of four political.
I agree. What does Huckabee have to do with this except for bad luck?

[uk_dave]

Also, for what it is worth, the suspect has been known to think he is Jesus.

Then someone needs to go find him.

[Skeptic Ginger]

9 percent is pretty low. I do not think this is where to point the finger.
That figure referred to "at least" 9%. It is likely much higher based on the statistical likelihood of certain criminals reoffending. You have to consider how those stats are collected. If a prisoner reoffends in another state, it may not show up. If he/she reoffends more than a year later and they only collect data for one year, it may not show up and so on. I don't know in this case except for the fact the article stated "at least". The article did not state it as a certain number.

I think the bigger issue here is the kind of criminals Huckabee was giving clemency to and what was influencing his decisions. If being born again or having some Evangelical prison preacher vouch for these criminals greatly influenced the decisions, that would indicate fundy judgment on Huckabee's part. Fundy judgment is not evidence based judgment.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I agree. What does Huckabee have to do with this except for bad luck?I'd say the issue was more about bringing attention to Huckabee's clemency granting. The pattern is the issue, not just Clemmons directly. Because of the pattern, and the bad luck as you put it, Huckabee will be tagged as misjudging this murderer.

[Matthew Best]

The suspect has now been shot dead by police.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6938866.ece

[tyr_13]

They're like pre-programmed robots, aren't they?


Makes you wonder if they have the capacity to choose to be different?

The irony is awesomely astounding. You too didn't actually read what was written and just agreed with Skeptic because it 'defended' Bush and attacked vague liberal enemies. That's the only conclusion I can see as a reasonable possibility.

Bush was not in any way blamed for this.

It's perfectly valid to explore the reason this guy was pardoned, especially when it appears those reasons to be religious in nature. The knee jerk 'defend the conservative' reaction isn't productive. Note that I'm not about to criticize someone saying, 'let's wait for judgment till we have more information'. To that person I'd point out that there is evidence that is being reasonably reviewed.

This isn't 'bash a conservative' it's, 'bash the harmful likely possibly religiously motivated actions of a governor'. You know, the action that contributed to these deaths?

[tyr_13]

The suspect has now been shot dead by police.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6938866.ece

I don't know if that's a good thing or bad thing.

[cbish]

Didn't Mike Dukakis take gas over a similar situation when he ran for President. I recall alot of Republican commercials about Willie Horton.

[ravdin]

I don't know if that's a good thing or bad thing.

I don't see any negative implications from taking this worthless sociopath out of circulation.

[Dave Rogers]

The suspect has now been shot dead by police.

If he's right about being Jesus, he'll just be back on the streets again in three days.

Dave

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I don't know if that's a good thing or bad thing.

Good.

[tyr_13]

I don't see any negative implications from taking this worthless sociopath out of circulation.

Good.

Oh I'm not saying I'm sad that he died, although I prefer a long, unhappy imprisonment to death. I don't know if that will take the spotlight off of the problem of random attacks on police and the sub issue of religiously motivated pardons sooner than if he had a trial to keep this in the news for a few more months.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

If he's right about being Jesus, he'll just be back on the streets again in three days.

Dave

He has to move a giant rock first.

[Policenaut]

Oh I'm not saying I'm sad that he died, although I prefer a long, unhappy imprisonment to death. I don't know if that will take the spotlight off of the problem of random attacks on police and the sub issue of religiously motivated pardons sooner than if he had a trial to keep this in the news for a few more months.

How about the spotlight also shone on a low bail sentence for psychotic violent child rapist?

[tyr_13]

How about the spotlight also shone on a low bail sentence for psychotic violent child rapist?

Good point.

[dudalb]

Oh I'm not saying I'm sad that he died, although I prefer a long, unhappy imprisonment to death. I don't know if that will take the spotlight off of the problem of random attacks on police and the sub issue of religiously motivated pardons sooner than if he had a trial to keep this in the news for a few more months.


Oh, I am sure that the political advisors for GOP candidates who are planning to run for the Presidency in 2012 against Huckabee will see that nobody forgets this.

[ravdin]

Oh, I am sure that the political advisors for GOP candidates who are planning to run for the Presidency in 2012 against Huckabee will see that nobody forgets this.

Given my low opinion of Huckabee's politics, it's tempting to pin the blame on him for this criminal being loose on the streets. It's true enough that he granted an exceptional number of commutations and that this particular individual had a poor track record, even while in prison. However, there is a very long list of recent bureaucratic screwups that have nothing at all to do with Huckabee. I think these recent events in Washington state are more deserving of scrutiny.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2010392869_shootingjustice01m.html

[daredelvis]

What a horrible act. I am glad the guy is off the streets for good now.


How about the spotlight also shone on a low bail sentence for psychotic violent child rapist?
How unsurprising to find someone turn this into a thread about Polanski less then 72 hours after the incident (couldn't resist).

Daredelvis

[dudalb]

Given my low opinion of Huckabee's politics, it's tempting to pin the blame on him for this criminal being loose on the streets. It's true enough that he granted an exceptional number of commutations and that this particular individual had a poor track record, even while in prison. However, there is a very long list of recent bureaucratic screwups that have nothing at all to do with Huckabee. I think these recent events in Washington state are more deserving of scrutiny.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2010392869_shootingjustice01m.html



Agreed. To let a psycho loose because of some stupid sociological theory is just as bad as letting him loose because of some stupid religiious reason.
Of course, in Politics it is often about appreance,and this looks pretty lousy for Huckabee, considering his core constuiency.

[Just thinking]

Wow, apparently the top suspect in this is a one Maurice Clemmons, who was pardoned 9 years ago by Arkansas governor, creationist, and 2008 GOP Presidential hopeful Mike Huckabee.

I wonder if Huckabee pardoned him because he found Jeeeebus?

I didn't make it political, the facts did.

Had Huckabee not pardoned him he'd still be in jail in Arkansas, and those 4 cops would be alive. And they had 9 kids between them.

Facts? ... just what facts are you referring to? ... the ones made up in your head?

1) Huckabee did not pardon him --- so you're wrong right out of the box. He reduced his sentence from over 100 years (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1209/30041.html) (for burglary and robbery without a weapon at the age of 16) to just under 50. Anyone on this forum would have thought the original penalty excessive. It also made him eligible for parole, of which Huckabee did not have any involvement in deciding the outcome.

2) He violated parole and was put back in prison, but because the prosecutor didn't file papers in a timely manor, he was released on $15,000 bail .... by two judges whom have yet to explain their actions on releasing him. He committed child rape.

3) Just where do you get off on presuming under what conditions Huckabee made his decision? Evidence?

[fuelair]

I don't know if that's a good thing or bad thing.He had a pistol - from one of the murdered officers- on him, he didn't stop when ordered to by another officer, he will never get to be released from prison by a possibly ill-advised official again, he will never murder anyone else. I fail to see any downside and give my full compliments to the officer who halted him appropriately.:):):):):)

[Just thinking]

:):):):):)

Seconded!

:D

[Skeptic Ginger]

Didn't Mike Dukakis take gas over a similar situation when he ran for President. I recall alot of Republican commercials about Willie Horton.The hypocrites think that was OK, but when the tables are turned it somehow is not.

Personally, other than Huchkabee's finger pointing and blame spreading, I don't think this case specifically is Huck's fault. Huck played a minor role here in the past that allowed things to grow. The real culprit is the idiot judge that allowed bail. Clemmons was making threats and not quite functioning in the real world at the time. He should never have been let out.

But Huckabee's entire record here that this case has brought attention to is another matter.

[WildCat]

Facts? ... just what facts are you referring to? ... the ones made up in your head?

1) Huckabee did not pardon him --- so you're wrong right out of the box. He reduced his sentence from over 100 years (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1209/30041.html) (for burglary and robbery without a weapon at the age of 16) to just under 50. Anyone on this forum would have thought the original penalty excessive. It also made him eligible for parole, of which Huckabee did not have any involvement in deciding the outcome.

2) He violated parole and was put back in prison, but because the prosecutor didn't file papers in a timely manor, he was released on $15,000 bail .... by two judges whom have yet to explain their actions on releasing him. He committed child rape.

3) Just where do you get off on presuming under what conditions Huckabee made his decision? Evidence?
Hey, I reported a breaking story. Sorry I used the term "pardoned" instead of "commuted".

Fact is, had Huckabee not been involved the POS would still be rotting in an Arkansas jail, 4 police officers would still be alive and a 13 year old child wouldn't have been raped.

And don't try to pretend that Huckabee has no influence on the parole board whose members he appointed.

[Just thinking]

Hey, I reported a breaking story. Sorry I used the term "pardoned" instead of "commuted".

Well, there's a huge difference ... plus you used the term more than once and emphasized it as fact.

Fact is, had Huckabee not been involved the POS would still be rotting in an Arkansas jail, 4 police officers would still be alive and a 13 year old child wouldn't have been raped.

Quite right ... and Huckabee would be viewed as a racist governor seeing to it that some poor black kid rots in prison on a 108 year sentence where whites get less than ten for similar (or worse) crimes. Tell me ... just what exactly did Huckabee do that was so wrong at the time? (Let me guess ... he forgot to turn on his crystal ball which would have shown the murder of 4 police officers and the child rape years down the road.)

And don't try to pretend that Huckabee has no influence on the parole board whose members he appointed.

Wow ... you've got plenty of evidence for this assertion, right? (PS -- those appointments were his job (http://www.arbop.org/boardandstaff.html). You want him to not do his job? Plus the state senate must confirm each one.) I'm sure you'll supply it along with just what it was he did that was so wrong at the time. And I suppose he also had influence on the two judges that let him out of prison (on parole violation) for $15,000 bail on child rape charges?

I wonder just what everyone here would be saying if somehow it was Senator Obama at the time who somehow managed to get a similar sentence on a similar case altered through clemency and then watched it turn out like this years later. So many here would be falling all over themselves making identical cases I've presented to make it clear that he had no way of knowing that it would end like this --- and that he acted properly at the time.

[WildCat]

Quite right ... and Huckabee would be viewed as a racist governor seeing to it that some poor black kid rots in prison on a 108 year sentence where whites get less than ten for similar (or worse) crimes.
They do? Go ahead, show me the white kid who got 10 years after bringing a gun to school, a robbery in which he said he had a gun and beat the female victim, threatened the judge at the trial, attacked a deputy in the courtroom by throwing a hinge at him and attempting to take his gun. and also robbed a policeman's house of $6,500 of loot including a gun.

But go right ahead and try to frame it as just "burglary and robbery without a weapon". :rolleyes:

Tell me ... just what exactly did Huckabee do that was so wrong at the time?Ignored his history of violence and instead focused on his claim he "came from a good Christian home".

Wow ... you've got plenty of evidence for this assertion, right? (PS -- those appointments were his job (http://www.arbop.org/boardandstaff.html). You want him to not do his job? Plus the state senate must confirm each one.) I'm sure you'll supply it along with just what it was he did that was so wrong at the time.Oh please. Arkansas government is as incestuous as Illinois' is. That parole board knows they arte there to do the governor's bidding, and then another government job awaits when their term is done.

And I suppose he also had influence on the two judges that let him out of prison (on parole violation) for $15,000 bail on child rape charges?I don't know what their problem is either, but if they think they have a political career I can assure them it's just as screwed as Huckabee's is.

I wonder just what everyone here would be saying if somehow it was Senator Obama at the time who somehow managed to get a similar sentence on a similar case altered through clemency and then watched it turn out like this years later. So many here would be falling all over themselves making identical cases I've presented to make it clear that he had no way of knowing that it would end like this --- and that he acted properly at the time.Yeah, who could predict paving the way for a violent criminal's release based solely on religious beliefs could turn out bad? You'd have to be psychic to see that coming!

[ponderingturtle]

Facts? ... just what facts are you referring to? ... the ones made up in your head?

1) Huckabee did not pardon him --- so you're wrong right out of the box. He reduced his sentence from over 100 years (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1209/30041.html) (for burglary and robbery without a weapon at the age of 16) to just under 50. Anyone on this forum would have thought the original penalty excessive. It also made him eligible for parole, of which Huckabee did not have any involvement in deciding the outcome.

I am just kind of wondering how he got sentanced to multiple year sentances about 6 times in 6 months. I mean why did they give him bail the after the second or third time he was arrested and charged with more felonies while out on bail?

[WildCat]

Wow ... you've got plenty of evidence for this assertion, right? (PS -- those appointments were his job (http://www.arbop.org/boardandstaff.html). You want him to not do his job? Plus the state senate must confirm each one.) I'm sure you'll supply it along with just what it was he did that was so wrong at the time.
We don't know exactly what went down in the Clemmons case yet, but we do know that Huckabee did pressure at least 2 parole board members in the Dumond case:
Two members of the state parole board said Huckabee pressured them to show DuMond mercy
http://durangoherald.com/sections/News/2009/12/01/Seattle_officials_seek_gunman_who_allegedly_shot_f our_officers/

So yes, Huckabee does have a track record of putting pressure on parole board members. And pressure from the man who gave you your job and can also give you other jobs is not insignificant.

Also from that article:
Between 1989 and 1998, Clemmons broke prison rules more than two dozen times – sometimes violently, said state prison system spokeswoman Dina Tyler.
This stinks to high heaven, actions like that generally keep you from getting paroled. Unless, of course, you have the governor pressuring the parole board.

[WildCat]

And this illustrates (http://www.arkansasleader.com/frontstories/st_07_07_04/huckabee3.html) quite well how "seriously" Huckabee treated his clemency decisions. This is his actual response to Prosecutor Robert Herzfeld's objection to one of his pardons:

http://home.mindspring.com/%7Ea.lo/letter.gif

4 cops now dead? LOL!

[Darth Rotor]

And this illustrates (http://www.arkansasleader.com/frontstories/st_07_07_04/huckabee3.html) quite well how "seriously" Huckabee treated his clemency decisions. This is his actual response to Prosecutor Robert Herzfeld's objection to one of his pardons:

http://home.mindspring.com/%7Ea.lo/letter.gif

4 cops now dead? LOL!
The governor read you letter?

Do you smell something slightly "not quite genuine" about this letter? :confused: I have a hard time believing that a no kidding lawyer who advises a governor writes such a memo.

"I wish you success as you cut down on caffeine consumption."

No flags, Wildcat? :confused:

DR

[WildCat]

The governor read you letter?

Do you smell something slightly "not quite genuine" about this letter? :confused: I have a hard time believing that a no kidding lawyer who advises a governor writes such a memo.

"I wish you success as you cut down on caffeine consumption."

No flags, Wildcat? :confused:

DR
AFAIK it's genuine. Note that that article is from 2004, untainted by the politics of either his 2008 Presidential run and the current situation. And as far as I know it's a reputable Arkansas local tri-county newspaper. And it names names, and Herzfeld hasn't denied it, nor has Cox.

[Bill Thompson]

I'd say the issue was more about bringing attention to Huckabee's clemency granting. The pattern is the issue, not just Clemmons directly. Because of the pattern, and the bad luck as you put it, Huckabee will be tagged as misjudging this murderer.

From what I have read he considered Clemmons youth. So we should point our finger at Huckabee for not having a crystal ball like liberals do? Wasn't Willie Horton a fault on the Democratic side? How long did the libs cry fowl over that?

It is so sad that 9 kids now are missing one of their parents and yet people seem to have the capacity to make this a political issue. I can't see how people can do that. But somehow they do.

Huckabee was a popular governor. So I sense that the left just can't wait to find SOMEthing to make him loose any potential presidentail election. Wait, he is a creationists too! Somehow that will also make him a bad president because he would flunk Biology.

[patchbunny]

Ok, so the police are charging (http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/12/02/washington.police.charges/index.html)two of the people people who assisted Clemmons with 'rendering criminal assistance', with the claim that they provided medical aid, housing, money, and were trying to get him out of the state. I would have thought this would qualify as 'accessory after the fact', or am I watching too much Law & Order?

I also note the police state they have who they believe is the getaway driver in custody. That's most interesting.

[Bill Thompson]

Ok, so the police are charging (http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/12/02/washington.police.charges/index.html)two of the people people who assisted Clemmons with 'rendering criminal assistance', with the claim that they provided medical aid, housing, money, and were trying to get him out of the state. I would have thought this would qualify as 'accessory after the fact', or am I watching too much Law & Order?

I also note the police state they have who they believe is the getaway driver in custody. That's most interesting.

Clemmons was violent, a pervert and a murder who thought that the world was full of baby eating zombies. He was known for rambling on incoherently about nonsense. He had a history of mental illness and evil behavior. But he seemed to have a lot of family support.

Does he remind you of any previous New England Democratic senators?

I am just asking.

[Skeptic Ginger]

From what I have read he considered Clemmons youth. So we should point our finger at Huckabee for not having a crystal ball like liberals do? Wasn't Willie Horton a fault on the Democratic side? How long did the libs cry fowl over that?....I think I was pretty clear here and you seem to have not read what I wrote.

How about re-reading it and trying again: Personally, other than Huchkabee's finger pointing and blame spreading, I don't think this case specifically is Huck's fault. Huck played a minor role here in the past that allowed things to grow. The real culprit is the idiot judge that allowed bail.

[Skeptic Ginger]

The governor read you letter?

Do you smell something slightly "not quite genuine" about this letter? :confused: I have a hard time believing that a no kidding lawyer who advises a governor writes such a memo.

"I wish you success as you cut down on caffeine consumption."

No flags, Wildcat? :confused:

DRIt is sometimes hard to verify these things when the majority of the sources are just blog after blog that repeated the original source and the original source is a small time paper that we don't know the credibility of.

I did, however, find this which suggests there is enough credibility for an interviewer to inquire about the letter to the recipient:

Huckabee answers questions surrounding clemency policy (http://www.cwarkansas.com/news/local/story/Huckabee-answers-questions-surrounding-clemency/LgqScVeXxUyiS000BcshUA.cspx)Huckabee's response came three days later, in the form of three lined letter from his deputy legal counsel Cory Cox. It read: "The governor read your letter and laughed out loud. He wanted me to respond to you. I wish you success as you cut down on your caffeine consumption."

Herzfeld is a judge now and tells FOX16 News it wouldn't be appropriate in his current job to talk about the letter.

[Bill Thompson]

I think I was pretty clear here and you seem to have not read what I wrote.

How about re-reading it and trying again: Personally, other than Huchkabee's finger pointing and blame spreading, I don't think this case specifically is Huck's fault. Huck played a minor role here in the past that allowed things to grow. The real culprit is the idiot judge that allowed bail.

Take it easy.

I heard someone on the news say that this criminal basically fell through the cracks. You can also say the the system in Seattle also failed where he was free on bail after raping a kid.

[patchbunny]

Clemmons was violent, a pervert and a murder who thought that the world was full of baby eating zombies. He was known for rambling on incoherently about nonsense. He had a history of mental illness and evil behavior. But he seemed to have a lot of family support.

Does he remind you of any previous New England Democratic senators?

I am just asking.

Which I note has absolutely nothing to do with anything I said.

[Darth Rotor]

It is sometimes hard to verify these things when the majority of the sources are just blog after blog that repeated the original source and the original source is a small time paper that we don't know the credibility of.

I did, however, find this which suggests there is enough credibility for an interviewer to inquire about the letter to the recipient:

Huckabee answers questions surrounding clemency policy (http://www.cwarkansas.com/news/local/story/Huckabee-answers-questions-surrounding-clemency/LgqScVeXxUyiS000BcshUA.cspx)
If Huckabee let his subordinates get away with crap like that, under his impramatur, then I am even more pleased that his bid for the GOP nom went south.

That's low rent BS from the Governor of a State.

DR

[Skeptic Ginger]

Take it easy.....How about you be more careful in your replies?

[Bill Thompson]

How about you be more careful in your replies?

I was addressing the entire internet. Your quote was just a jumping off point.

[Bill Thompson]

Which I note has absolutely nothing to do with anything I said.

This is true. I just noticed that he had gotten a lot of help from family. It reminded me of someone.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I was addressing the entire internet. Your quote was just a jumping off point.Like I said, you need to be more careful about your posts.

[tyr_13]

From what I have read he considered Clemmons youth. So we should point our finger at Huckabee for not having a crystal ball like liberals do? Wasn't Willie Horton a fault on the Democratic side? How long did the libs cry fowl over that?

You want to make this about liberals and conservatives? Too damn bad. I don't think anyone else in this thread cares. Besides, it's just plain stupid to consider his youth but not his recidivism. No crystal ball needed.


It is so sad that 9 kids now are missing one of their parents and yet people seem to have the capacity to make this a political issue. I can't see how people can do that. But somehow they do.

You make this about liberals vs conservatives in the first paragraph, then type this as your second? That takes a lot of cognitive dissidence.


Huckabee was a popular governor. So I sense that the left just can't wait to find SOMEthing to make him loose any potential presidentail election. Wait, he is a creationists too! Somehow that will also make him a bad president because he would flunk Biology.

Huckabee apparently messed up and put his religious beliefs before good government and common sense. Yes, his creationism is another example of that. Yes, those would both make him a terrible president. That isn't very related to this thread.

Clemmons was violent, a pervert and a murder who thought that the world was full of baby eating zombies. He was known for rambling on incoherently about nonsense. He had a history of mental illness and evil behavior. But he seemed to have a lot of family support.

Does he remind you of any previous New England Democratic senators?

I am just asking.

Quit JAQing off.

Take it easy.

I heard someone on the news say that this criminal basically fell through the cracks. You can also say the the system in Seattle also failed where he was free on bail after raping a kid.

He didn't fall through the cracks. One cannot claim that someone who got attention from the governor and the DA like this fell through the cracks. People blatantly messed up. The most obvious are the judges who even gave him bail.

This is true. I just noticed that he had gotten a lot of help from family. It reminded me of someone.

You are trying to tie this to the Kennedys? That's sick.


---------------------------------


It's amazing how the specific and direct criticism of individual acts draw some kind of defense response from some people. This isn't being used to bash conservatives here, nor should it be. There were a lot of chances for this to have come out better and a lot of people to share some blame.

[KoihimeNakamura]

Tacoma, not Seattle.

Pierce County's seat is Tacoma.

(In any case, the Seattle Times covered this today and I should read the article. Glad to see it's resolved.)

[Sledge]

I was addressing the entire internet.

Words fail me. Although someone owes me a new keyboard and monitor after I just ruined mine with a laughing spit-take.

[dudalb]

If Huckabee let his subordinates get away with crap like that, under his impramatur, then I am even more pleased that his bid for the GOP nom went south.

That's low rent BS from the Governor of a State.

DR



It's low BS from anybody in charge of a large organization. If you are in charge, a huge part of your job is keeping an eye on people to see that crap like this does not happen. If it does, you are to blame.
The old expression "It happened on his Watch" applies to a lot more then the Navy and the Army.